I once heard TD Jakes use that phrase, testicular fortitude, in a sermon. Struck me as inappropriate. I hoped he meant to say, intestinal fortitude. It is sort of like how the word, sexy, has now replaced the more appropriate word, lovely. Would you tell the pastor's wife that she is sexy or that she is lovely?
I'm only a few minutes in so far but can I just say - what an encouragement to see brothers sitting around and discussing these issues face to face in a godly and mature manner. Thank you for this Canon Press.
This conversation is a master class on how believers should deal with controversial issues in a digital age where communications are instant and widespread, especially for those who have a large reach. The digital generations are accustomed to think that every issue can be solved in a 30 second sound byte and doesn't require non-emotional, reasoned, sober, considerate, and thoughtful discussion to resolve.
The descent of the Western world into madness has caused me to move toward Christianity. I have no idea which denomination I will end up following, but when I hear Christian men speaking with such candor, intelligence, and good will, I know I'm headed in the right direction. God bless you. Shout out to Jason Whitlock at "Fearless". ❤🙏
Good for Sean for not only go meet/talk with Doug but to start off the conversation by highlighting how Doug Wilson has blessed him and his family. That's how you do it: Start with edification and kindness which is necessary between brothers. Love that.
I give kudos to Sean for doing this. It couldn't have been comfortable. He did great, pushing points and hearing out the opposition. Valuable for us, the audience, in a way that Ligon's interview just wasn't.
My man said “I said room for nuance and dang it I mean room for nuance!”. Forget this embargo on Moscow, I want to hear from them. This is a man of God, willing to actually apply the law and give a just “hearing”. I see you brother Sean. This is really one of those meetings that will help bridge the gap. And, I’ll admit, I’m a bit of a troll myself. But seeing these men sit with one another demonstrates, to me at least, what it means to “cool one’s jets” as Wilson puts it. Simply put, the Spirit really helped me with this one.
As both a member of Sean’s congregation, and someone who has benefited from your work since I was a child being homeschooled, I’m particularly thankful for this conversation!
Glad he took the invite. Some of his facial expressions make me wonder if he has ever spoken to someone who actually believes what they claim. “Crikey… a real Presbyterian in the wild!”
It's rare to see men disagree so well. The video is packed with gems of truth and yet the greatest of gem is the demonstration of Godly disagreement. Props to both sides. Thanks for modeling what it means to be men, real men.
This interview was awesome enough for the clarity it’s brought on Federal Vision, Moscow Mood, serrated edge, etc. The cherry on top is getting to see how mature Christians engage and encourage each other in the midst of a disagreement. I hope one day to be able to embrace conflict and lean in with as much grace and humor as these guys. Keep it up!
Just imagine the state of our culture if many more churches and leaders would do something like this frequently and consistently in a firmly, non-compromising manner, and above all, brotherly. We would be winning all battles. It can be done, just like we just saw. Thank you, brothers. Doug, you are a gift to the Church brother.
I find Doug Wilson extremely reasonable, charitable, and peaceable though I myself do not hold the same eschatology. I benefit greatly from listening to Doug. God bless the work you do. I pray that those who seem to disagree with you vehemently would just lend an ear and listen to the full matter before they jump to conclusions.
I have had various concerns over the tone and views of Doug Wilson. That said, this candid and irenic conversation on controversial issues is what we need more of. Wonderful job, Sean!
Hey Pastor Doug, I was the guy who emailed about doing an interview with you on zoom. This is the type of interview I was looking for. Thanks for this! It is helpful.
Finally! 28 minutes in and I have all my unanswered questions about distinctions answered. Why did those FV questions have to be so hard and messy all these years? That’s not hard to understand.
This is the only point at which I think Doug and Sean could have been clearer. The visible/ invisible distinction and where that makes FV guilty of error was only briefly alluded to.
This interview AND the comments posted on it are so encouraging. I truly believe this is going to have such a profound effect on church growth. I am a relatively new christian, and my husband and i found canon soon into our journey, and God has used Moscow as an extremely edifying resource for us. When we finally got ourselves into a WONDERFUL Reformed Church, i was taken back by brothers and sisters reactions when we talked about our gratefulness for Dougs teachings. I didn't know why because we always loved the "clarity" of things. It was disheartening, honesty. Praise our good Lord for working all things for His Glory and im so excited to see how all this continues to unite our brothers and sisters across the nations.
This was a really good interview. I learned! I appreciate the kindness of both sides with their gentle debate. Having conversations like this shows that each person is actually human, not an unfeeling persecutor of anyone who disagrees with them. Thank you, gentlemen!
I have to admit that the "backbone ", shown here in this talk by all 3 is worthy of praise. Elasticity of words back and forth revealed the core of matter. Christ centered aim.
This conversation was inspiring, challenging, and encouraging. I can learn much from the wisdom and humility displayed by the gentlemen from Moscow. Thank you!
Thankful for this and hope to see more of this... we need to come together and discuss differences like brothers instead of "lobbing grenades" from afar. The charity and clarity in this discussion was commendable. Well done! May this be the beginning of more fruitful discussions across the "camps" - in a culture war, we need more brothers in arms and less friendly-fire.
Constantly on my kids about reading books due to the connection it has with our explanations of things we mean when applying scriptures to whatever the topic of discussion may be and the enhancement it has on furthering our understanding and explanation of social issues amongst the brethren such as this edifying conversation between brothers on opposite sides of the fence. Praise the Lord i appreciate the content “Moscow mood” 🙏🏾😂
The reason they don't want to use the tools that Moscow employs is because they (the ones complaining about Moscow) don't really want the fight. They, many of them want to LARP courage and faithfulness but also have the escape route of plausible deny-ability.
Must have been the prayer, this was really edifying. I hope there are more open conversations like this amongst brothers who disagree. (Comment contribution for the algorithm’s propagation of this video 😉)
So, the students of a teacher/influential Christian may amplify an emphasis of teaching, whether gentleness leading to compromise or satire leading to quarreling. It seems to become a teacher to be aware of this and bring that correction out in his ministry. I see a conversation like this as helping temper an emphasis of Moscow. I am grateful for that.
We are thankful that Sean went out to Moscow for this sit down. At the same time we can totally relate to what Doug and Joe were saying when it comes to the embargo and separation they face because of the stance Christ Kirk takes (especially DW). We’ve faced this backlash in the South Pacific (where we are stationed) simple due to supporting the brethren in Moscow and calling Doug a brother in Christ. Yet one of my philosophies in Christ is that wisdom is always known by her children and the saints in Moscow with leaders like DW have wisdom seeping through multi generations of faithfulness. While we may differ from them on some matters of doctrine we are very much united with them in Christ.
Thankful that this conversation took place and is available. The average Christian in the pew needs to see how brothers can charitably discuss challenging issues.
Watching this I could not help but think of the Gospel going forward. The Romans built the roads that the Christians used to spread the Gospel throughout the known world. The pagans today have built the platforms (Facebook, TH-cam, etc) that these men are now using to spread the WORD further. "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" We see it happening before our eyes! What a great time we live in!
I confess…I was more than a bit miffed after the Sean & Ligon conversation, but Sean has truly stepped by engaging Doug and Joe…thank you Sean, God bless you brother! And God bless Ligon as well…
Not very far end, but I already love this. Amazing way to structure a conversation and give the Moscow mode an opportunity to make a defense for themselves.
Wow what an encouraging thing to see!!! Extremely surprised but happy to see!! And thats on me for being surprised the Holy Spirit brings unity and ppl to my left can still have the Holy Spirit obviously!
I'm glad Sean brought up the point about not taking Lig to mean Doug & co. specifically when he leveled those remarks questioning the courage and Christianity of certain online "Moscow Mood" adjacent bros. Like Sean, I certainly didn't take it as a pointed accusation when I watched the orignial interview-and I am firmly in the Moscow mood camp (CREC church member, New St. Andrews grad, etc.)
1:30:00 discussing people sinning on the internet in an attempt to defend faithful and bold pastors, like Doug, .. we are living in a culture right now that is so starved for the actual Gospel to be displayed clearly, unapologetically, UNASHAMED because pastors, like Lig, have only been faithful and bold behind the pulpit. But whenever it comes to application in the real world, whenever a person's faith actually comes out of their fingertips, so to speak, it's all of a sudden, "oh no, you can't actually believe what you say you believe in practicality. You must only have this faith and keep it to yourself." And that's exactly what has led the culture around us astray. Culture is downstream from the church. And we are all desperate for Godly leaders and that's why Lig's interview was so hurtful to people because behind the screen we were all sitting there like, "there it is, ladies and gentlemen. This is and has been precisely the problem. Do you actually believe what you say you believe, Pastor? Because so many pastors have been shepherding this way for so long, this is why we are where we are."
![[ENGSUB] UNPRODUCTIVE DAY ใช้ชีวิต (เปื่อยๆ) ด้วยกัน 1 วัน! | OUROAD CLOSEFRiEND SS2 EP.9](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pyYKZ3kra9w/mqdefault.jpg)
Well, good for Sean on actually engaging Doug. Finally, someone with the testicular fortitude to finally talk to the man.
I only talked to Doug once in a similar setting and he was JUST like this: disarmingly gracious. This is actually who he is
I once heard TD Jakes use that phrase, testicular fortitude, in a sermon. Struck me as inappropriate. I hoped he meant to say, intestinal fortitude. It is sort of like how the word, sexy, has now replaced the more appropriate word, lovely. Would you tell the pastor's wife that she is sexy or that she is lovely?
The willingness of these men to come together for a discussion on this issue is a testament to the goodness and unifying grace of God!
I’m so glad Sean took you up on your invite! This is what the body of Christ needs 🙌🏻. Less division and more fruitful conversations.
1:56:33 1:56:33
I'm only a few minutes in so far but can I just say - what an encouragement to see brothers sitting around and discussing these issues face to face in a godly and mature manner. Thank you for this Canon Press.
This conversation is a master class on how believers should deal with controversial issues in a digital age where communications are instant and widespread, especially for those who have a large reach. The digital generations are accustomed to think that every issue can be solved in a 30 second sound byte and doesn't require non-emotional, reasoned, sober, considerate, and thoughtful discussion to resolve.
I just started this but wanted to say props to Sean DeMars for being willing to engage with them after the Ligon Duncan podcast
The descent of the Western world into madness has caused me to move toward Christianity.
I have no idea which denomination I will end up following, but when I hear Christian men speaking with such candor, intelligence, and good will, I know I'm headed in the right direction.
God bless you.
Shout out to Jason Whitlock at "Fearless". ❤🙏
Good for Sean for not only go meet/talk with Doug but to start off the conversation by highlighting how Doug Wilson has blessed him and his family. That's how you do it: Start with edification and kindness which is necessary between brothers. Love that.
I give kudos to Sean for doing this. It couldn't have been comfortable. He did great, pushing points and hearing out the opposition. Valuable for us, the audience, in a way that Ligon's interview just wasn't.
I am thankful for Doug Wilson .
same
My man said “I said room for nuance and dang it I mean room for nuance!”. Forget this embargo on Moscow, I want to hear from them.
This is a man of God, willing to actually apply the law and give a just “hearing”. I see you brother Sean. This is really one of those meetings that will help bridge the gap.
And, I’ll admit, I’m a bit of a troll myself. But seeing these men sit with one another demonstrates, to me at least, what it means to “cool one’s jets” as Wilson puts it. Simply put, the Spirit really helped me with this one.
As both a member of Sean’s congregation, and someone who has benefited from your work since I was a child being homeschooled, I’m particularly thankful for this conversation!
Amen! I love DW. He has helped me in my spiritual growth. Your pastor’s willingness to talk to DW is awesome. You have a GREAT pastor. Pray for him!
A few minutes in and I see the Nuance guy being respectful and Doug being very thoughtful and encouraging.
Steven Furtick interviews Keith Foskey and Bill Burr.
😂
Lol 😅
Underrated comment 🏆
@kylewilson1022 Hi Kyle help me understand why
All based on how they look and saying they are other people
Glad he took the invite. Some of his facial expressions make me wonder if he has ever spoken to someone who actually believes what they claim.
“Crikey… a real Presbyterian in the wild!”
😂
This is so refreshing to see brothers in Christ meeting face to face in a loving way to discuss issues and confront differences. Praise the Lord!
It's rare to see men disagree so well. The video is packed with gems of truth and yet the greatest of gem is the demonstration of Godly disagreement. Props to both sides. Thanks for modeling what it means to be men, real men.
This interview was awesome enough for the clarity it’s brought on Federal Vision, Moscow Mood, serrated edge, etc. The cherry on top is getting to see how mature Christians engage and encourage each other in the midst of a disagreement. I hope one day to be able to embrace conflict and lean in with as much grace and humor as these guys. Keep it up!
Pastor Doug is always so refreshing. I’m grateful he knows who he is reaching. We are forever grateful to him and for him. 🙏🏼
Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity! Psalm 133:1
Just imagine the state of our culture if many more churches and leaders would do something like this frequently and consistently in a firmly, non-compromising manner, and above all, brotherly. We would be winning all battles. It can be done, just like we just saw. Thank you, brothers. Doug, you are a gift to the Church brother.
Amen
This was great... now @adrobles will have to do a 32-part reaction because it is so long, but this was a blessing
I was already sold.
You don’t have to convince me 😏
Hahahahahaha
I find Doug Wilson extremely reasonable, charitable, and peaceable though I myself do not hold the same eschatology. I benefit greatly from listening to Doug. God bless the work you do.
I pray that those who seem to disagree with you vehemently would just lend an ear and listen to the full matter before they jump to conclusions.
Imagine that 😏
So far this video was like Christmas morning for me. Thank you! Now to finish the rest...
I have had various concerns over the tone and views of Doug Wilson. That said, this candid and irenic conversation on controversial issues is what we need more of. Wonderful job, Sean!
Hey Pastor Doug, I was the guy who emailed about doing an interview with you on zoom. This is the type of interview I was looking for. Thanks for this! It is helpful.
"Everything you needed to do you are doing by being here." Wow. Very gracious, very wise. Amen
One of the most helpful collaborative discussions I’ve heard in a while. Praise God for the these brother’s humble willingness to engage face to face!
The way Ligon phrased it, it was an accusation against Moscow proper, whether he meant it or not. There's no getting around that.
"Jazz is terrible" 😬
Finally! 28 minutes in and I have all my unanswered questions about distinctions answered. Why did those FV questions have to be so hard and messy all these years? That’s not hard to understand.
Ugh exactly! I had been trying to understand for years and this just made things clear
This wasn't an accurate summary of the concerns with FV, unfortunately.
This is the only point at which I think Doug and Sean could have been clearer. The visible/ invisible distinction and where that makes FV guilty of error was only briefly alluded to.
‘FV guilty of error…’
Okay 😂
God bless Sean for being willing to have an in-person conversation with Pastor Doug. I would hate to just see him lobbing grenades.
I am thankful these men were made for such a time as this.
This interview AND the comments posted on it are so encouraging. I truly believe this is going to have such a profound effect on church growth. I am a relatively new christian, and my husband and i found canon soon into our journey, and God has used Moscow as an extremely edifying resource for us. When we finally got ourselves into a WONDERFUL Reformed Church, i was taken back by brothers and sisters reactions when we talked about our gratefulness for Dougs teachings. I didn't know why because we always loved the "clarity" of things. It was disheartening, honesty. Praise our good Lord for working all things for His Glory and im so excited to see how all this continues to unite our brothers and sisters across the nations.
This was a really good interview. I learned! I appreciate the kindness of both sides with their gentle debate. Having conversations like this shows that each person is actually human, not an unfeeling persecutor of anyone who disagrees with them. Thank you, gentlemen!
Good interview, I just wished Sean treated Ligon Duncan the same way.
I am in that cohort Pastor Doug. God bless all you do.
I have to admit that the "backbone ", shown here in this talk by all 3 is worthy of praise.
Elasticity of words back and forth revealed the core of matter.
Christ centered aim.
It's awesome to see Sean willing to talk things over. I respect the man for that. He's my new favorite wrong person. 😀
This is very encouraging! Praise the Lord. Thank you gentlemen. Sean, the Lord is already using this meeting for much good. I thank God for you.
This was a great conversation. Thank you for doing this. ♥
This is so great to see Sean doing this!
Great conversation
And great to see people coming to actually have a conversation with Moscow. Hopefully this is a trend that continues.
This conversation was inspiring, challenging, and encouraging. I can learn much from the wisdom and humility displayed by the gentlemen from Moscow. Thank you!
Thankful for this and hope to see more of this... we need to come together and discuss differences like brothers instead of "lobbing grenades" from afar. The charity and clarity in this discussion was commendable. Well done! May this be the beginning of more fruitful discussions across the "camps" - in a culture war, we need more brothers in arms and less friendly-fire.
This is the best interview. So much clarity
Finally a fellow brother willing to sit and have a productive conversation on weighty topics. Thankful and blessed to see it.
Thank you for an excellent conversation! Very blessed by it.
That was healing, helpful, and fun, which is pleasing to the Father, I think!🥰❤️🙏
Wow, what a discourse! Amazing video.
Constantly on my kids about reading books due to the connection it has with our explanations of things we mean when applying scriptures to whatever the topic of discussion may be and the enhancement it has on furthering our understanding and explanation of social issues amongst the brethren such as this edifying conversation between brothers on opposite sides of the fence.
Praise the Lord i appreciate the content “Moscow mood” 🙏🏾😂
Outstanding. Thank God for these men and this conversation.
The reason they don't want to use the tools that Moscow employs is because they (the ones complaining about Moscow) don't really want the fight. They, many of them want to LARP courage and faithfulness but also have the escape route of plausible deny-ability.
Exactly
This is great , glad see Christians showing charity.
OUTSTANDING distinction between quarrels and debate
Must have been the prayer, this was really edifying. I hope there are more open conversations like this amongst brothers who disagree. (Comment contribution for the algorithm’s propagation of this video 😉)
“Did you just think of that?!” That’s how I feel when listening to Doug all of the time.
"Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity"
So, the students of a teacher/influential Christian may amplify an emphasis of teaching, whether gentleness leading to compromise or satire leading to quarreling. It seems to become a teacher to be aware of this and bring that correction out in his ministry. I see a conversation like this as helping temper an emphasis of Moscow. I am grateful for that.
I appreciated this convo & hearing from your guest. Delano was refreshing to hear from. I’ll be looking forward to checking out his book.
Dang. Joe nailed it near that 45-50 minute mark.
49:18
Joe is proving himself to be a Gem
We are thankful that Sean went out to Moscow for this sit down. At the same time we can totally relate to what Doug and Joe were saying when it comes to the embargo and separation they face because of the stance Christ Kirk takes (especially DW). We’ve faced this backlash in the South Pacific (where we are stationed) simple due to supporting the brethren in Moscow and calling Doug a brother in Christ. Yet one of my philosophies in Christ is that wisdom is always known by her children and the saints in Moscow with leaders like DW have wisdom seeping through multi generations of faithfulness. While we may differ from them on some matters of doctrine we are very much united with them in Christ.
Grateful for your support!
God bless these brothers.
Burger ovee BBQ? Church discipline... Immediately. 🤣🤣 This was great, gentlemen. More of this, please.
BIG CRITICISM of Sean: He needs to read some Chronicles of Narnia! 😆He missed both illusions to the books!
Dude, I'm ashamed. I've read, but not enough apparently.
BIG CRITICISM of Benjamin: He used the word illusions instead of the correct word allusions. 😆 (All in good fun.)
@@jeremyjohnson8128 NOOOOOOOO! (This is why I need grammatical oversight!)
“Dial back the dose”…Bravo Doug! THAT is why I appreciate you so very much!
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalm 133:1
Thankful that this conversation took place and is available. The average Christian in the pew needs to see how brothers can charitably discuss challenging issues.
"Well you should tell all the angry people on the internet that was a totally fair question."
"They don't listen to me!"
🤣 exactly!
Excellent discussion.
the quickfire questions were really fun
So, so good. Thank you for this.
Watching this I could not help but think of the Gospel going forward. The Romans built the roads that the Christians used to spread the Gospel throughout the known world. The pagans today have built the platforms (Facebook, TH-cam, etc) that these men are now using to spread the WORD further. "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" We see it happening before our eyes! What a great time we live in!
Excellent! Three brave Christian guys
I was not expecting this.
Well done, gentlemen.
Reading the comments and they're very respectful and encouraging, now I wonder what the comment section on the other side would be?! To be continued!
Update. Sadly it isn't.
Very, very good. Greetings from Holland!
I confess…I was more than a bit miffed after the Sean & Ligon conversation, but Sean has truly stepped by engaging Doug and Joe…thank you Sean, God bless you brother! And God bless Ligon as well…
Not very far end, but I already love this. Amazing way to structure a conversation and give the Moscow mode an opportunity to make a defense for themselves.
Just love pastor Doug! So Thankful ! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🇧🇷🇧🇷
Wow what an encouraging thing to see!!! Extremely surprised but happy to see!! And thats on me for being surprised the Holy Spirit brings unity and ppl to my left can still have the Holy Spirit obviously!
Loved it thanks guys
Doing two hours is fantastic! 🎉❤
Iron sharpens iron.... the process is grating and not comfortable. It is also a one on one process. We all need thicker skin.
Moscow MoshPit I’m absolutely dying🤣
That was so good. Thank you guys.
I like those questions at the end!
Praise God! I love seeing this!
I'm glad Sean brought up the point about not taking Lig to mean Doug & co. specifically when he leveled those remarks questioning the courage and Christianity of certain online "Moscow Mood" adjacent bros. Like Sean, I certainly didn't take it as a pointed accusation when I watched the orignial interview-and I am firmly in the Moscow mood camp (CREC church member, New St. Andrews grad, etc.)
This makes my heart happy❤
The right tune for All Hail the Power!
Thank you from Breaux Bridge, Louisiana!
Joe's treatment of the covenantal aspect of the Presbyterian/Westminter view of pedo-baptism was the most clear I think I have ever heard.
1:30:00 discussing people sinning on the internet in an attempt to defend faithful and bold pastors, like Doug, .. we are living in a culture right now that is so starved for the actual Gospel to be displayed clearly, unapologetically, UNASHAMED because pastors, like Lig, have only been faithful and bold behind the pulpit. But whenever it comes to application in the real world, whenever a person's faith actually comes out of their fingertips, so to speak, it's all of a sudden, "oh no, you can't actually believe what you say you believe in practicality. You must only have this faith and keep it to yourself." And that's exactly what has led the culture around us astray. Culture is downstream from the church. And we are all desperate for Godly leaders and that's why Lig's interview was so hurtful to people because behind the screen we were all sitting there like, "there it is, ladies and gentlemen. This is and has been precisely the problem. Do you actually believe what you say you believe, Pastor? Because so many pastors have been shepherding this way for so long, this is why we are where we are."
This was excellent
1:10:10 is a great highlight, for those who follow Moscow. Really great courage and fortitude on both sides.
Exemplary work, guys. Thanks.
1:14:00 Joe’s reversal here is so good.
1:26:00 a sin and a blunder in reacting to moscow mood critics with “gay” or “low T”
Joe Rigney is to Doug Wilson AS Timothy is to Paul
Yes 👍🏼
Loved this. So good.
Outstanding.
The whole line of questioning about Moscow being overly sensitive and all the attacks possibly being just in their head… grade A gaslighting
thank you