The key question is: does regeneration precede faith, or does faith precede regeneration? all the other points must logically follow from that. Either I believed in response to God's regenerating me (Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Edwards, Owen, Henry, Knox), or God regenerated me in response to my believing in him (Arminius, Wesley).
Well put. This is indeed what it boils down to. And those who think it begins with us, rather than with God, must ask themselves, why they bother praying for unsaved loved ones. If the only missing part is that the person must simply "chose" to believe, then they should speak to that person about it, not to God, because - in the Arminian view - this is outside of God's jurisdiction.
If faith precedes regeneration than regeneration isn’t necessary. This goes deeper than I want to go on a TH-cam comment, but if you can have faith before regeneration than you are not dead in your sins
@@jeremymaendel5846 Yes sir. And they are saying salvation is based on us and if we don’t choose it than Gods grace hasn’t done enough. And if universalism is true, then God is a failure because he will not the reach his goal of saving everyone. No the work has been done, and we can do nothing in our depravity. The Glory goes to God!! I think some people want Arminianism to be true because of self esteem and this obsession with “ I’m the captain of my own soul.” God is fully responsible for our election reconciliation, justification, sanctification and glorification, and it’s wrong to claim we have anything to do with it, as we take Gods credit. I see why Arminianism is attractive to the carnal mind but when one sits down and really begins to read about both and ponder them, Calvinism is clearly the truth.
@@jeremymaendel5846 That's correct. The fundamental difference in view is that non-Calvinists don't believe in the total inability of the man to respond to God's appeal to have faith in God's work on our behalf. For non-Calvinists, "Dead in our sins" is not correct in the sense that Calvinists mean it, but they would say that it is true in the sense the apostles meant it. It's figurative language. It doesn't mean total inability to respond to God, but it does mean separation from God, it means having a sinful human nature, it may even mean inability to respond to God without his help. Then you get down into the weeds with concepts like prevenient grace. At any rate, it isn't nearly so simple as "We take the Bible seriously, they just don't".
The reason why I finally came to decide that it is God who chooses who will be saved instead of people choosing to have faith is because I have been shown and am convinced that there is the preponderance of clear scriptural passages show that Calvinism has the most Biblical foundation.And I have been shown why the supposed proof passages that Christians who believe the person chooses whether or not they are saved really don't.Those passages like John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 when exegeted properly in context do not mean what people who purport man-centered soteriology think they mean.
the night I became Born again. during that day I was not thinking of God, I was not praying to God, I was not trying to decide if I wanted to be a Christian are not, I was like paul, I was going my own way doing my own thing, and then out of no where Christ came to me and changed me!...there was no choice, it was 100% irresistible LOVING GRACE. all I wanted was Christ, everything in this world at that moment ment nothing to me. All I wanted was Jesus. and it has been a long hard rocky road, but here iam at 58 years old, still believing, still loving, and still wanting nothing but Christ. That happened when I was 24 years old. I just got out of the Army, where I served as a Airborne Ranger, and I was a mean ass hard core, hard drinking S.O.B. So now like I said iam 58 years old and I have been fighting evil all these years, and now iam Half way through seminary. Jesus Christ has done this work in me, I did nothing! it has been all Christ all the way. He just keeps pulling me through this godless evil world of sin, sin that I Hate!!!...Jesus said those who hate there life of sin in this godless sinfull world, shall keep there life. I will keep my life, for I have been Raised up with Christ, and He lives in me.
that's funny the same thing happened to me I was minding my own business at work smoking a cigarette and wow after trying to encourage my daughter I found myself crying for three days searching the scriptures praying and worshipping God cause He changed me , Thank you Father
Wow! Never heard of this! I was destroying myself with sin...always crying out to the Jesus I was taught about as a child, but not knowing how to follow him. Than I got pregnant at 22 and I was born again and had power over my sin! He delivered me.
When someone you know gets saved, who do you thank? God? Or the person for being smart enough to come to a right understanding and belief in the gospel?
Misrepresentation, the person chose God according to his God-given free will, he is the image-bearer of God after all so then it doesn't ultimately and decisively depend on knowledge, intellect, smartness, wisdom, circumstances but the "self" or something similar to personality.
Ptr John opined based on the perspective of calvinism. God gave me faith based on His mercy and grace in Christ Jesus. He helped it grow, He watered it by the Holy Spirit, He caused it to bear fruit. I am eternally safe in the Father's hands. On the other hand, calvinists should humbly examined their stand on limited atonement. Its very very very clear. "Whosoever believes in Him..."
@@litocortez7509 "God gave me faith based on His mercy and grace in Christ Jesus. He helped it grow, He watered it by the Holy Spirit, He caused it to bear fruit. I am eternally safe in the Father's hands." You know what you just said? You just said what a Calvinist would say.
I have great respect for John Piper but toward the end Piper ask the question "What was the decisive cause of your faith in Christ? The Calvinist says God the Arminian says myself. No that is wrong. I have heard Arminians say God. But where Calvinist and Arminians differ and this is key to their philosophy. Calvinist believe God has to regenerate (Born Again) first Before you can believe. Regeneration precedes faith. This is the philosophy this is the hub that holds the whole entire Calvinistic system together. The Arminian will say no the gospel is proclaimed and the command given to repent and trust in Christ alone for your salvation. It is more simple and straight forward in the Arminian view. The true test is go to the book of Acts and look at the gospel the apostles proclaimed and the command given. The gospel is simple it is mans philosophy that complicates the gospel.
I think Piper defines both sides really well here. Most Calvinists I've heard, like John MacArthur, Sproul, Tim Conway, etc., misrepresent Arminianism by creating straw men and then insulting and beating down that misrepresentation. I appreciate Piper's self-restraint to not descend into that and give it a fair representation.
Before i knew these two doctrines, i experienced God when He showed His irresistible beauty through which led me to surrender my life and be a slave of His glory. Thanks for all our fathers of faith who seeks God and took life sacrificial effort for these teachings. I think we have our own duty in this generation to seek God not basing our faith on anything but on Jesus alone. God bless us!
The decisive cause to choose God by your own free-will does not undermine God's sovereignty. God designed that free-will in the first place. He's already above it.
i love piper so much. God bless those who seeks Jesus. Starting today, ill stop seeking the doctrines of Armenian and calvinist. I will just read my bible everyday and seek Him alone. Thank God for all these bible translations. But i believe God will talk to me the way He talked to our fathers in faith. Not starting with any doctrines, just know God alone and obey His commandments.
I’m neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist... both have points I agree/disagree with. But I lean more towards Arminianism... the point being, election. Basically calvinists believe that God will cook them their dinner if He wants to... whereas Arminians believe God plants the idea to cook your own dinner, but let’s YOU decide whether you want to cook your meal or not. Obviously this is an analogy but to me, the Calvinism viewpoint makes no sense.
Couldn't Yahweh put a thought into our head and we not even know that He did? So we might think we had that thought independent from Him? Yes. So Arminism is just believing it was an independent thought from Yahweh's power and Calvinism is saying that I merely think it was my thought but after knowing that Yahweh is LORD and in control of everything. I was saved by His grace alone. I do not consider myself one or the other but I think Calvinism is closer to truth. Side note: It doesn't't truly matter by my estimation what group is right because if you are a follower of Jesus and you repent of sin whether it was your decision or Yahweh's. You are still doing the best you can to live righteous, to love God, and hate sin.
Curt Christensen that is not what I am saying. I am saying he could give us a thought and not know that that thought was given to us unlike other thoughts we derive ourselves
God is so powerful and sovereign that man's free choices can not influence God's destiny. My God is not the ultimate author of sin, it never enters his mind.
if God would only choose whom he wants to save, then he is unfair. and it would not be a genuine relationship at all. it would be robotic being controlled without any free will to choose to love and follow him willingly. Holy Spirit convicts the world and points us to Jesus but it is our freewill and decision to love and follow God. If we abide in Christ, the Holy Spirit will produce the fruit in us.
The decisive cause of my belief in Christ was ... (drum roll) ... From my point of view that most blessed day when I asked the Lord to be my Lord from now on and forever, it seemed like I was the one who made the final decision - upon His offer of salvation and everlasting life together with Him. However, in retrospect of what took place (that most blessed day) I now realize that God chose me from eternety - only He knows why - and He was the One who made me do it by breathing life into my "walking dead" soul. So it seems like a matter of point of view to me: From my point of view I would consider myself an Arminian, but as I try to see the matter from God's point of view I would have to consider myself a Calvinist. So what does that make me? An Arminian or a Calvinist?
Obviously it is God's point of view which is more accurate - which would perhaps make me a Calvinist, more or less. Anyway, do you think it is a valid take on the difference between Arminianism and Calvinism?
I think starting with explaining thet the five points came from what the Arminians objected to about the Calvinist teaching on salvation helps draw the distinction better than I've seen before. I've usually come away from these types of videos with the idea thet both sides are saying the same things, in different words. Of course, you can only say, so much either way without running up against scripture. I still find myself an Arminian because I believe there's more to belief than faith alone. Faith, as defined in scripture, is inherently supernatural, and God has given each of us a measure of faith, however each must make his own decision, whether to believe, and accept God's grace, and forgiveness, or not.
Arminian-ism vs Calvini-sm it's just what it sounds like. A sch-ism. Believers leaning one way or the other and fighting over it. The way that Piper is wording the differences is putting the other side in a bad light. Claiming they take away God's sovereignty. Well, maybe extremists do, but the Bible does not. The Bible is clear that God is Sovereign. And, the Bible is clear that we will find him when we seek him with all our hearts. He initiates and He makes the final choice, and we respond to Him, accepting or rejecting what he has initiated. We either follow him to the cross, while carrying our own, or we turn around, not wanting to go that far. A wise man avoids all extremes, ( Ecclesiastes) except the extreme of loving the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength, ( Deuteronomy, Matthew, Luke,...) then loving your neighbor, by ensuring that they are just as well treated and taken care of as you do yourself, or even better then you take care of yourself. "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by [ Facebook memes, social media, political podcasts, and attitude t-shirts promoting a certain camp] that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul [Washer]," or "I follow Apo[stolic preachers]," or "I follow [ Charles H Spurgeon] or "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? [Were any of the men] crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of [ John Calvin and Jacob Arminius]?" 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 ESV bible.com/bible/59/1co.1.10-13.ESV I was baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, because of the death and Resurrection of Christ, to the glory of God! I seek to worship Him in Spirit and Truth ( John 4:23)... by the power of the Holy Spirit given to me (Acts 1:8), reminding me of the teachings of God's word (John 14:26) which I have studied to show myself approved ( 2nd Timothy 2:15). To God be the glory!
best comment ever!! I really hate when people even big guys who elevate their denomination, or beliefs than the cross and Christ. aren't we already so divided, why divide more?. I'm a Pentecostal but I do love all of the other "right" denominations. only when someone comes against the gospel must we fight with all our might.
The difference between Calvinists and the Arminianists is that Calvinists cite biblical evidence for everything they teach about the salvation of man, and the Armenianists try to reason the matter (and God's secrets as far as election is concerned) with human logic. In this process, they bypass or distort the Scriptures to suit their position. When all the relevant texts relating to salvation are examined, it becomes evident that regeneration and the ability to believe is God's work and that man has nothing to contribute to it.
All the Good things comes from God , wisdom , knowledge , love , mercy , faithfulness , forgiveness , patience all good in us is from God nothing ours. All bad things is from us hate , lust , lieing, curruption, jealousy, envy , desires of body etc.. Nothing good in us we are useless. Praise the God for Giving us all of this, but not all have it. So praise Him for giving your goodness in you coz its not your own but God's. We are His chosen sheeps, lets go astray no more and glorify His name in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who gave His life on the cross in behalf of us so that we the lost sheeps of the God will become righteous and He became sinner in behalf of us. The innocent Holy being came on earth to die for our sins as God's Lamb so that we will live eternity in His and our Father presence forever and ever in His Holy promise land. Amen
I have solved the whole Calvinist and Arminian debate. I am now a Calviminian. God saves the Christian through His divine will/choosing through Jesus and absolutely nothing in ourselves, (cuz we were dead), but as shown by Judas, Demas and other scriptures like in Hebrews saying it is impossible to "renew" a person (at some point) to repentance again, tells me that a chosen person can leave the fold and lose their salvation. The essence of the word "renew" gives the clue. If we are NOT going to ignore scripture that clearly shows predestination and election, neither should we ignore or try to theologically make scripture that clearly shows a person can leave the fold and find themselves cutoff eternally from God, say something different!
I used to be a calvinist. But it doesn't fit in the old testament. There's no examples of individual salvation in the old testament. Thats why I dont really believe that second temple Jews actually view salvation like a calvinist does. Calvin's theology only fits in the new testament, even if even does at all (with lots of contradictions in other verses, sometimes in the same chapter). Free will to believe or not is a fundamental aspect of our existence as God's children. He wants us to love him as our own choice. Otherwise he wouldn't have put the tree of good and evil in the garden of Eden. There's no works that will bring us closer to God, but believing and having faith isn't a form of work, even Paul said that. Salvation is a gift but it only follows believing loyalty to Christ.
@@davidsusan1209 Anglicans as judged by the 39 articles is not arminian , infact it is very calvinistic . Though many Anglicans in practice do not follow the statement of faith.
That definitely made more sense than most answers I heard in the past regarding this question. I think bottom line believe in Christ as Lord and Savior and the work of the cross...
Rebellion? I don't agree with his understanding of salvation. Special Grace?, it reads as common grace, hence Arminianism. Please consider Lydia, the seller of purple.
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[a] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven-not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. Many Disciples Turn Away 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. From John 6.
I just don't agree with Piper on his last point at all. I can't consider myself a Calvinist... the idea of a covenant involves two parties. God is obviously sovereign and by his sovereignty decided that humanity has the duty to respond to his call. I don't think "the decisive cause" of faith was MYSELF. I see my faith as a response to God's initial call (and that's not saying that God couldn't force me to believe, of course he could).
Jake Livingstone Mostly agree with you...Except that the covenant was never between you and God. You had no legal grounds to establish covenant with God. "Choose you this day..." was an old testament principle. Don't get me wrong. Man has responsibility...but the covenant was between Christ and God, God and Christ. We are just helpless bystanders, witnesses*, recipients and beneficiaries of that covenant. Blessings. (Btw... I responded to you off the bat. I am open to the possibility that I may have overlooked something whether in scripture or in your comment).
ricplay7890 It seems to me that we are in a covenant with God.... Heb 8: 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 ¶ For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 ¶ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Rom 11: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. God bless you sir.
First, Arminianism and Calvinism can't both be right as they are opposite doctrines. Arminianism says God has made a provision (Jesus) by which we can be saved, but we have to save ourselves by conjuring up faith in Jesus, and placing it upon Him Calvinism says God has saved us completely by Himself, and that that is simply a gift [bestowed] upon us out of His grace and love for His Children. If there is any prerequisite that is required from us to be saved, then God has not saved us - He has only provided the means by which we save ourselves. Pastor John - there you have it - plain and simple
God is still saving us in Arminianism, we are simply consenting. Us accepting salvation does not discredit God's glory or the fact salvation is a free gift from Him and the ultimate testimony to His power, love, and mercy. Just because God isn't dragging us to Heaven kicking and screaming does not mean salvation is entirely credited to Him.
I can't fully accept Calvinism or Arminianism. - I believe God (through Jesus' sacrifice) alone PROVIDES our salvation - I believe God is sovereign over all and CAN control all, but does not exercise his sovereignty over our ability to choose him - We must therefore make the final decisive decision - This does not indicate that salvation is down to us, but rather salvation is PROVIDED by God to ALL, and we choose to elect ourselves - I do not buy the Arminian mentality of losing your salvation. I would say we HAVE to make the CHOICE to take his gift to be born again, but that we cannot become un-born again. Conclusion: Salvation is PROVIDED by GOD only, MUST be CHOSEN by us, and is NON-REFUNDABLE! :D To say the decisive cause of our faith is GOD indicates that we are robots and if God didn't elect you, then you're doomed - this isn't loving! God IS loving!
Calvinism and Arminianism are just the most popular terms. The most accurate is Synergist and Monergist. You are a Synergist. The issue is the clear dividing line between the two views. I made a completely neutral video addressing both sides. th-cam.com/video/Wpc6ekPCX54/w-d-xo.html
Your conclusion surmises to say that you ascribe to Arminian theology. "- I believe God is sovereign over all and CAN control all, but does not exercise his sovereignty over our ability to choose him." The distinguishing factor is God's sovereignty. you state that you don't believe that God chooses the person, but you believe that the person chooses God... Did you get to choose to be born into this world? Did you get to choose your height, your weight, your eye color, and WHEN you wanted to come into the world? the answer is: no. Our spiritual birth is much like our physical birth, which is why Jesus uses this picture to describe our faith/salvation, in John 3: it had nothing to do with our own works. My question to you: how then does a person who is rebellious to God, because of sin, with a heart pitted against God, come to God to surrender to Him, and receive the peace that He has offered through His son, Jesus Christ? Remember, the unbelieving are enemies in their mind (Colossians 1: 21, Romans 5: 10), toward God: they will not come to him, unless they are called. God regenerates their heart, through the work of the Holy Spirit.
John 3:8 so I guess your argument is basically all are broken so none are good enough to choose God? Certainly an interesting argument - but your case is that we only know God because he chooses us first. If you consider this deeply, this means the people who aren’t saved, and suffer for eternity, only suffer because God opted to NOT choose them (even before heir birth) - this is not the action of a loving God. I believe Jesus died so that ANYONE can know Him, not just the pre-chosen.
Well, I am saying that nobody, in their fallen state, has the capacity to choose God, because of the sin of adam and eve, we are all infected by sin. The world is filled with "the walking dead," because through sin came death, and all have fallen short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death. But, it is God who chooses to regenerate a person, to love Him, and proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, to be beacons of light, to draw others off the broad road of destruction and into the narrow path that leads to life, through His living and abiding word. God regenerates, God leads us to know the gospel, God leads us to share the gospel through His own word, and God saves us through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son. 'Jesus answered them, "This is the WORK OF GOD, that YOU BELIEVE in him whom he has sent.' John 6: 29... to even believe, is the work of God: let that settle in your spirit. I am nobody to give counsel to God; I only want to conform to His will. Why did He choose you to believe, and not somebody else? The answer is, for His glory. why did He choose me? I don't know why, but it gives Him glory: those who believe, He chose according to His will, and it gives him glory: it gives meaning to the familiar hymn: 'amazing grace.' It's all to give God glory. Be cautious of creating an idol out of your definition of 'love.' Remember: God is love. Drawing near to God, to understand His word, is understanding the truth of love: that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, according to scriptures, was buried and resurrected according to scriptures, and multiple witnesses saw him after he was resurrected. If you truly believe, then God chose you according to the counsel of His will. If you truly believe, you are a new creation, and you can't go back, even if you wanted to: that's why the picture of birth is given... You can't jump back into your mothers womb. That which is born of the flesh, is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.
Simon Dismorr sometimes yes, but if the Bible explicitly teaches one thing then obviously not. I think faithful, Bible believing Christians can be in both camps...but I do still think calvinism is more biblical.
Simon Dismorr I think it is absolutely fine. I myself jokingly refer to myself as a Calminian because I hold remnants from both views. There are some areas in Christianity that I feel are black and white, the virgin birth, the diety of Christ, the cross, the bodily resurrection, a literal hell. But other areas I feel are a difference of opinion.
I think it is not always healthy to decide which you believe. One's view of this topic is tied to their view of God, which is shaped by their own walk of faith in Christ and should be combined with diligent study of God's word.
As believers in Jesus for our salvation, we should be able to describe how we became Christians without ever using the word "I". Can you do it? If you cannot do it, you need to look at your "Check Engine" light. You may have a problem.
Pretty good overall, however, he got the small point on sovereignty wrong. Arminians do not hold a lower view of God's sovereignty or limit it, they believe that he is capable of doing all the things that he does under calvinism, but the he just doesn't.
while calvinism does not tell you these directly,it tells us that -God does not love everybody equally -he doesnt desire everyone to be saved -you do not have any freedom of choice -God plays favourites -most importantly,There is no real present in this world.Because love is not real love when it is forced or demanded.Like if a robot was programmed to say 'i love you' and act lovingly,that is not genuine real love.(Love requires freewill) The Bible tells us that God is compassionate for the lost and desires all to be saved,and that is the God i serve. Something extra for you to think about.if your parents and loved ones dont get saved and do end up in hell,dont worry,the calvinist God wanted them there
God doesn't play favorites in Calvinism since the elect are not chosen based on anything they do. In Arminianism God does play favorites since God chooses those who are spiritual enough to exercise faith (hence they are better than others). Giving spirirtual life to people who are dead in sin(eph.2:1), enslaved to sin(John 8:34), unable to come to Christ (john6:44) is a far cry from forcing people to come to Christ. People are born again then believe (1john 5:1). We love because He first loved us (as if we are capable of loving God). The comment "if your parents and loved ones dont get saved and do end up in hell,dont worry,the calvinist God wanted them there" is not a good argument since in Calvinism and Arminianism the final result is the same (you have the same individuals and same number of individuals are saved in the end)
@@TheOtherCaleb, I could respond by saying, yes and that would be the truth. But I'd rather respond by saying, I've read the Bible and have sincerely sought to understand it, in its context, giving proper weight to its grammar and historicity.
I think the decisive cause is God… but I think we have the option to resist the Holy Spirit… just like how we have the opportunity to resist the Holy Spirit as born again christians…. Acts 7:51 said it’s possible to resist the Holy Spirit as an unbeliever (technically)
I don't think that Jacobus Arminius or his views ever deliberately hurt anyone. Yet John Calvin felt he was justified in having 58 people burnt at the stake for disagreeing with his views.
@@gregb6469 Yes, we are born in a fallen world, sinful culture, which was never denied, but I don't believe in Calvinism, because they believe that we are completely predetermined, which means God forced us to believe or disbelieve, which is against His nature, because by nature, God is our definition of love, and love has to be mutual, for that kind of relationship God seeks with us. Let me put it like this, have you ever had that one person who liked you, and obsessed over you, but you didn't like them, and it always felt uncomfortable around them? Imagine that person forced you to love them? Is that true love? No, it's not. Predestination/predetermined is not the same as foreknowledge. God bless.
@@palerity6320 -- God does not 'force' anyone to love Him unwillingly. What He does by regenerating a person is straighten up his twisted, distorted view of reality, including of God, so that the person can see God for who He really is, the Supreme Being who is most worthy of being loved.
Romans 9 shows that John Calvin was right. Those who God chose to regenerate will be changed and so they will repent of their sins. Those who God did not choose will not be changed and they will not repent and they will still be responsible for their sins. Jacobus Arminius only saw the effects of God's regeneration, but He missed the big picture. When God regenerates someone, the person obeys God as if it were coming out of their own will.
Mental gymnastic, trying to parse out soteriology on the backs of arguments that have only been around for a couple hundred years, only to have the end result of your theological argument based in the realm of the mind. Salvation isn't an intellectual pursuit but the healing of soul and body through communion with Christ in the Eucharist and the sacramental life of the Church.
You have Arminians all wrong. Armenians believe it is impossible for a person to come to God unless the Holy Spirit draws him. When He does, then it's up to the person to respond in faith and repentence.
Key differences Is Calvinist Believe God Accepts the Person. Armenians believe the Person accepts God . To be honest the calvinist Out look is pretty grim compared to the Armenians
The main difference is in the character of God. Calvinists believe that God has the power to save all people, but prefers to damn many (if not most) people to hell. Arminians believe that God desires to save all people and has provided the means to save all people, but has granted people the ability to resist His saving will.
Notice, the five points of Calvinism (devised by opponents of Calvinism) don't focus on God damning certain people to hell to distinguish it from other theologies. The 5 points don't comment on the character of God - you're actually only appealing to emotion and your subjective opinion of what good and bad characters entail. Think about it. Instead, the opponents of Calvinism recognised that the big difference was to do with monergistic and synergistic salvation: What is the deciding factor in someone putting their faith in Jesus? Is it man choosing or is it God choosing ultimately? Can man accept or resist the draw of the Father (libertarian free will), or does God have to change his heart? This is the main issue. The five points deal with this. I would recommend that you try to avoid approaching the arguments with your emotions.
@Christopher Jank That's against God's very own nature, sir. God is the definition of love, and if He forced you to love him, that's not true love. Let me put it like this, have you ever had that one person who liked you, and obsessed over you, but you didn't like them, and it always felt uncomfortable around them? Imagine that person forced you to love them? Is that true love? No, it's not. Predestination/predetermined is not the same as foreknowledge. God bless.
I normally love these post but sorry, this one was a poor answer... it was bias and condescending towards the Armenian view... I still appreciate this channel and enjoy it though
@Felix What part of the clip did you find to be condescending? Please let me know which minute and second marker you are referring to so I can go back and listen.
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13). The glory of Salvation is to God only. It would be blasphemy if you even think you have done some input on your Salvation. However, if you do not seek him will all your heart he won't grant you the Salvation and you will be separated eternity in Hell. We all should seek for the truth, instead of proving one doctrine better than other doctrine.
No one will seek God with all their heart unless God choose them . God said all humans are dead spiritually, that why we can’t seek God . We think we did, that’s because of our foolishness thought.
His final point is of course how he wants to phrase it. Salvation is a FREE GIFT, and a gift offered is to be ACCEPTED, not imposed, or it is not a gift, it is an imposition. So free will believers believe we ACCEPT Christ as our Saviour, and Calvinists believe God saves some, and leaves the vast majority to rot in Hell to "prove he is King". You call that "proving you are King"? No!!! What proves the Kingship of God is "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be TO ALL PEOPLE." Luke 2:10 and "For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. John Piper wont repent of his Calvinist trash because he is PROUD. Even when he realises he is directly insulting the character of the Holy Ghost.
Your presupposition of understanding "free will" misleads you. All humans have a will. Nevertheless. it is bound by Satan; hence, there is "no one" who seeks God (reference Scripture). I believe in creaturely will not "free" will since no one desires to seek God.
@@savedby_grace6110 "No one desires to seek God." That's a false presupposition in of itself. I seek God, not because He forced me to, or he predetermined me to, but my choice to seek the Creator! If God predetermined us, we have no free will, and that would be against His very own nature. God by nature, is the definition of love, and love isn't possible if it's forced. Let me put it like this, have you ever had that one person who liked you, and obsessed over you, but you didn't like them, and it always felt uncomfortable around them? Imagine that person forced you to love them? Is that true love? No, it's not. Predestination/predetermined is not the same as foreknowledge. God bless.
@@palerity6320 Romans 3:10-19 English Standard Version (ESV) 10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Of course. One viewpoint is that both of this doctrines are wrong, there is no god, the bible is just a book of fables, people are just highly evolved animals who will eventually all rot in their graves when they die. That's one viewpoint. I don't personally believe that because of the numerous evidences which support the existence of God. Additionally, I've grown up under Armenian teaching and as a child of a United Methodist pastor. When I joined the military, I went with my fellow airmen to a Pentecostal church. I also attended Independent and Southern Baptist (SBD) churches. After retiring from the service, I attended the Church of the Nazarene (Armenian). Following some severe disagreements in the order of worship with other members, I left that church and switched to attending an SBD church with Calvinist teachings after I had searched the scriptures and found more than ample support for both doctrines. The differences to me are all in how you interpret those scriptures and what the context is. Who is the author addressing in some of the key passages? Fellow believers or unbelievers who were present and heard the Word preached to them?
The difference is one doctrine believes that the Lord Jesus Christ, creator of the universe, laid down His life to save the World and provided a way to be saved for everyone. The other believes God creates some for eternal Hell just because He feels like it. I can live with the knowledge that some of my loved ones will end up in Hell because they willfully rejected Christ's offer of salvation but I cannot believe and live with the knowledge that my loved ones will go to Hell because Christ rejected them. Calvinism is a evil doctrine that redefines our God as the creator of evil.
I believe a large percentage of Christians believe that it is both because every part of Calvinism and Arminianism is found in the word I stopped trying to wrap my brain around it and chose to believe lol
True. God wants all mankind to be saved. All will come to Him once the veils are lifted. Open the door, buy gold refined in fire, hear the trumpets, wash the robes, get the fuller's soap treatment etc - God's not giving up on us because He is good and good wins. Then come in through the open gates to the New Jerusalem for the free gift. Just read the Bible for what it says.
Piper makes Arminians sound really bad in this by couching it in God-centered vs. Man-centered terms. I don't think his theological opponents would very much appreciate this characterization. An Arminian may well ask the unbeliever- "What was the decisive cause of your damnation to hell?" to which he must say "God, because he predestined me to unbelief," but the Arminian can say "My choice to reject the Gospel." It's a matter of how you frame things. No one is helped by such deceptive misrepresentations. If the above example seems unfair to the Calvinist point of view, then you should understand the objection I am raising here. It's most helpful to always assume the best from other people. Thus I think the key distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism is not the "decisive factor" but the theological emphasis. Calvinism emphasizes God's sovereignty in contrast to man's inability. Arminianism emphasizes God's mercy in contrast to man's responsibility. They answer different questions well and give unsatisfying answers to others. In Calvinism, it's hard to frame a consistent worldview on the idea that we are both predestined in what we do and yet morally responsible for our choices. Arminianism solves the problem of moral responsibility, but makes God's foreknowledge and sovereignty a bit of a puzzle.
If any teaching doesn't lead to Christlikeness, the divine power and love life we see in Christ, freely given by Jesus blood and indwelling spirit, get rid of it. It is not worth following. I have some reformed friends. They do not understand the Gospel: the restoration of a wo-/man back to the image of God. A very sad thing. Once spoke with some of their pastors. When i mentioned spiritual giftings given to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Spirit changing us into the image of God again, they looked at me as if they saw water burning. They really had no clue what i was talking about. They follow some weird doctrine, a teaching of man and forefathers. So sad. Because it leaves a vast community powerless and mere human. Calvijn on the other hand is pretty ok. I once looked at his writings: a whole chapter was on spiritual gifts by Holy Spirit. Calvijn was pretty spot on. Nowadays Calvinists don't get Calvijn theached but a watered down version.
see, i really believe ppl are so different and have such different lives that both of these views could be true for different people for different reasons. I honestly heard very little difference and i could easily think of situations in my own experiences where all of these 10 points were true! I was raised Independent Baptist, I identify as Charismstic bc ive seen/experienced too many supernatural things and i married into Egyptian Orthodoxy & find great value in the unchanged traditions, stories and ideas/perspectives. I ALWAYS LOVE JOHN AND HIS PODCASTS/VIDEOS He is definately a patriarch of OUR faith! LET US ALL BE ONE AS HE DESIRES!
i will add, there is much scriptural evidence for both views (possibly just a tad more in the NT for the more Calvinistic one, in referring to all points except predestination). just an opinion! :)
Josh Burdette why can't they both be true? Isn't that putting limitations on what God can and can't do? It may simply be the nature of it is not revealed to us, for whatever reason. Probably because it doesn't affect most believers, as in those with faith.
Calvinism is based on Augustine’s misinterpretation of Scriptures, as he was part of a gnostic sect prior to conversion, furthermore, Augustine couldn’t read the scriptures in Greek, nor could he read the church fathers. Thus the massive disconnect.
Look God has not elected a few people. He has Elected everyone on Earth. John 3:6 says that:"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that so whomever belief in Him will be saved". It says that Jesus died for the whole world not just for some people.
As always, Calvinism uses phrases and language to defend its positions and assail its detractors that the Bible does not use. As a Christian (not a Calvinist), you don’t “choose to have faith”, you choose to receive the grace of God and the free gift of righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ. The difference between these two is like day and night, light and darkness, or heaven and hell. Or to put it another way straight out of scripture, “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God”. Reread Paul’s letter to the church in Rome, and especially chapter 10. This is consistent with God’s chosen method of salvation, that is “of faith that it might be in accordance with grace”. Romans 4:16 Nowhere in scripture does it say that God’s grace is irresistible. That is John Calvin’s bad theology. Flee Calvinism and behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 🎚🩸🍞🍷📖🙏🏼
Just to clarify, Arminians don't actually believe that we provide the "impulse of faith" that he was talking about. It's not like we're DOING something to obtain salvation, God does everything inside of us through His grace, it's just a matter of NOT RESISTING. The parable of the lost sheep says that the shepherd will pick up the sheep and carry it, and the sheep just relaxes and lets the Shepherd do His work. It's not really an "impulse". It's more like SURRENDER.
@hudson Do you consider "not resisting" to be doing something or doing nothing. If it's doing something, then the act of not resisting becomes the final reason why the person is saved. If it's doing nothing, then that means it wasn't up to the person at all - put differently, it was entirely because of the grace of God that he chose the person and that person has no cause to boast in their salvation.
T D If everyone is invited to a party and you decide to show up, would you have reason to boast about being at that party? If only a select few were chosen to come to a party would they not have a much greater reason to boast?
Those are bad questions to ask since it does not take into account man being in dead in sin (Eph.2:1), a slave of sin (John 8:34), inability to come to Christ (John 6:44). The sovereign grace of God is necessary to make a person spiritually alive to exercise faith. Spiritual rebirth precedes faith (1 John 5:1). No ground for boasting since salvation is entirely brought about by God's grace.
Jonathan Chan Do you know what it means to be spiritually dead? Can slaves to sin want freedom from their slavery? Is it just people who are hardened that cannot come to Christ?... Jhn 12: 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Have you considered all scripture and tried to make sense of all passages in light of the entire council? Regeneration happens after faith.... Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) All that believed would receive the Spirit after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension.... Jhn 14: 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Jhn 15: 26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Jhn 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. The Holy Spirit is first given here.... Jhn 20: 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: So they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection as Jesus stated in John 7. That’s well after the disciples believed, and many others as well...... Jhn 2: 23 ¶ Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. Luk 7: 50 ¶ And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. Even after the resurrection, faith still preceded regeneration..... Eph 1: 13 ¶ In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Just to clarify what regeneration is. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.... Rom 8: 9 ¶ But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Spiritual life happens after belief..... Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. The disciples hadn’t received this life before the resurrection of Christ..... Jhn 14:19 ¶ Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. Peter hadn’t yet been converted..... Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.) So can dead men believe? 1Jhn 5 is a test for the churches to identify Gnostics within their congregation. JWs believe that Jesus in the Christ and so do Catholics. Even demons.... Mar 1: 24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. It was a specific test to identify who the real Christians were in their congregation which had been invaded by the Gnostics. You have to read it in context... 1Jhn 2: 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 ¶ Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 ¶ Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 ¶ 👉🏻These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.👈🏻 God bless.
It does not only mean separated from God. It means that a person is characterized by sin just like verses 2 and 3 describes in Ephesians 2." And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest".
Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
Free will believers do not "limit" God's sovereignty. God is King. full stop. Calvinist heretics limit the love of God, and insult the cross of Christ, with a quote "limited atonement".
Don't be beguiled into believing into the false dichotomy of Calvinism vs Arminianism. Both systems of scriptural interpretation are more similar than they are different. Like two sides of the same coin. The true gospel as written in the holy scriptures, is neither Calvinism nor Arminianism. These have a low view of God and his word, which is why they impose their system of interpretation onto scripture. Instead, read scripture for what it says, and compare scripture with scripture. Don't read commentaries or man's interpretation of scripture. Psalm 119:108 KJB "Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments." Romans 5:18 KJB "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 1:16 KJB "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." 1 Peter 1:23, 25 KJB "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
In other words, God has created some souls predestined to an eternity in heaven and the rest predestined for an eternity in hell. With all due respect, this is diabolical misinterpretation of the scriptures. 'God is love', and His love extends to all 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'. 2 Peter 3:9
Calvinists are intellectuals. They believe they are the smartest, most accurate people in the room. You are saved by intellectual understanding and acceptance of their traditional doctrines.
If you are a Sunday keeper, you openly defy God, by your decision. If you do so and are a Calvinist, you are NOT elect. If you do so and are Arminian, you like the Calvinist, will be punished, but still offered salvation.
@@eltonron1558 Worshiping in the sabbath and Sunday don’t matter show me verse says that if you’re worship on Sunday it’s somehow infringing God word. you’re Not God you don’t know who the elect are and you don’t restrain salvation to nobody
@ButNowISee Who said Sunday keepers are not eligible for salvation? It's only a FACT, that Christianity, is identified in Revelation, as those who KEEP the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ. It's not my fault that true Christianity will be a SMALL remnant. 12:17, 14:12, 22:14
@@eltonron1558 Good thing you’re Not God and you don’t make the rules and bible says That’s salvation is a gift of God and no where Bible says sabbath is needed to be kept. You are sabbath keeping cult but i thx God i follow bible not man unlike you do.
Arminian ~ God uses his creativity to create things that can choose things, then uses self control to keep himself from forcing decisions on them. Calvinist ~ God is more powerful than he is creative.
Calvinism = Violates God's very nature by stating that God eliminates man's will to choose Him or not, because He chose US! That's not true love. Let me put it like this, have you ever had that one person who liked you, and obsessed over you, but you didn't like them, and it always felt uncomfortable around them? Imagine that person forced you to love them? Is that true love? No, it's not. Predestination/predetermined is not the same as foreknowledge. God bless.
The key question is: does regeneration precede faith, or does faith precede regeneration? all the other points must logically follow from that. Either I believed in response to God's regenerating me (Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Edwards, Owen, Henry, Knox), or God regenerated me in response to my believing in him (Arminius, Wesley).
Well put. This is indeed what it boils down to. And those who think it begins with us, rather than with God, must ask themselves, why they bother praying for unsaved loved ones.
If the only missing part is that the person must simply "chose" to believe, then they should speak to that person about it, not to God, because - in the Arminian view - this is outside of God's jurisdiction.
If faith precedes regeneration than regeneration isn’t necessary.
This goes deeper than I want to go on a TH-cam comment, but if you can have faith before regeneration than you are not dead in your sins
@@jeremymaendel5846 Amen, brother.
@@jeremymaendel5846 Yes sir. And they are saying salvation is based on us and if we don’t choose it than Gods grace hasn’t done enough. And if universalism is true, then God is a failure because he will not the reach his goal of saving everyone. No the work has been done, and we can do nothing in our depravity. The Glory goes to God!! I think some people want Arminianism to be true because of self esteem and this obsession with “ I’m the captain of my own soul.” God is fully responsible for our election reconciliation, justification, sanctification and glorification, and it’s wrong to claim we have anything to do with it, as we take Gods credit. I see why Arminianism is attractive to the carnal mind but when one sits down and really begins to read about both and ponder them, Calvinism is clearly the truth.
@@jeremymaendel5846 That's correct. The fundamental difference in view is that non-Calvinists don't believe in the total inability of the man to respond to God's appeal to have faith in God's work on our behalf.
For non-Calvinists, "Dead in our sins" is not correct in the sense that Calvinists mean it, but they would say that it is true in the sense the apostles meant it. It's figurative language. It doesn't mean total inability to respond to God, but it does mean separation from God, it means having a sinful human nature, it may even mean inability to respond to God without his help. Then you get down into the weeds with concepts like prevenient grace.
At any rate, it isn't nearly so simple as "We take the Bible seriously, they just don't".
The reason why I finally came to decide that it is God who chooses who will be saved instead of people choosing to have faith is because I have been shown and am convinced that there is the preponderance of clear scriptural passages show that Calvinism has the most Biblical foundation.And I have been shown why the supposed proof passages that Christians who believe the person chooses whether or not they are saved really don't.Those passages like John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 when exegeted properly in context do not mean what people who purport man-centered soteriology think they mean.
The question I have been agonizing over for years is that if God loves every human soul as his own child, why does he only call some?
the night I became Born again. during that day I was not thinking of God, I was not praying to God, I was not trying to decide if I wanted to be a Christian are not, I was like paul, I was going my own way doing my own thing, and then out of no where Christ came to me and changed me!...there was no choice, it was 100% irresistible LOVING GRACE. all I wanted was Christ, everything in this world at that moment ment nothing to me. All I wanted was Jesus. and it has been a long hard rocky road, but here iam at 58 years old, still believing, still loving, and still wanting nothing but Christ. That happened when I was 24 years old. I just got out of the Army, where I served as a Airborne Ranger, and I was a mean ass hard core, hard drinking S.O.B. So now like I said iam 58 years old and I have been fighting evil all these years, and now iam Half way through seminary. Jesus Christ has done this work in me, I did nothing! it has been all Christ all the way. He just keeps pulling me through this godless evil world of sin, sin that I Hate!!!...Jesus said those who hate there life of sin in this godless sinfull world, shall keep there life. I will keep my life, for I have been Raised up with Christ, and He lives in me.
that's funny the same thing happened to me I was minding my own business at work smoking a cigarette and wow after trying to encourage my daughter I found myself crying for three days searching the scriptures praying and worshipping God cause He changed me , Thank you Father
Wow! Never heard of this! I was destroying myself with sin...always crying out to the Jesus I was taught about as a child, but not knowing how to follow him. Than I got pregnant at 22 and I was born again and had power over my sin! He delivered me.
Saaaaaaame! I woke up that day dead and went to bed more alive than I'd ever been. Thank you LORD!
When someone you know gets saved, who do you thank? God? Or the person for being smart enough to come to a right understanding and belief in the gospel?
God. He ultimately brought that person who was saved by God to get another person to be saved by God.
And we thank God for those people who brought us that too, so lol.
Misrepresentation, the person chose God according to his God-given free will, he is the image-bearer of God after all so then it doesn't ultimately and decisively depend on knowledge, intellect, smartness, wisdom, circumstances but the "self" or something similar to personality.
@@dizzydisciple No, God did not force them. He opened their eyes in a way He knew would produce the desired effect in them.
Thank you pastor John, I feel this was careful and fair
Ptr John opined based on the perspective of calvinism. God gave me faith based on His mercy and grace in Christ Jesus. He helped it grow, He watered it by the Holy Spirit, He caused it to bear fruit. I am eternally safe in the Father's hands. On the other hand, calvinists should humbly examined their stand on limited atonement. Its very very very clear. "Whosoever believes in Him..."
@@litocortez7509
"God gave me faith based on His mercy and grace in Christ Jesus. He helped it grow, He watered it by the Holy Spirit, He caused it to bear fruit. I am eternally safe in the Father's hands."
You know what you just said?
You just said what a Calvinist would say.
I have great respect for John Piper but toward the end Piper ask the question "What was the decisive cause of your faith in Christ? The Calvinist says God the Arminian says myself. No that is wrong. I have heard Arminians say God. But where Calvinist and Arminians differ and this is key to their philosophy. Calvinist believe God has to regenerate (Born Again) first Before you can believe. Regeneration precedes faith. This is the philosophy this is the hub that holds the whole entire Calvinistic system together. The Arminian will say no the gospel is proclaimed and the command given to repent and trust in Christ alone for your salvation. It is more simple and straight forward in the Arminian view. The true test is go to the book of Acts and look at the gospel the apostles proclaimed and the command given. The gospel is simple it is mans philosophy that complicates the gospel.
Wonderful talk! I loved this!!
I think Piper defines both sides really well here. Most Calvinists I've heard, like John MacArthur, Sproul, Tim Conway, etc., misrepresent Arminianism by creating straw men and then insulting and beating down that misrepresentation. I appreciate Piper's self-restraint to not descend into that and give it a fair representation.
Before i knew these two doctrines, i experienced God when He showed His irresistible beauty through which led me to surrender my life and be a slave of His glory. Thanks for all our fathers of faith who seeks God and took life sacrificial effort for these teachings. I think we have our own duty in this generation to seek God not basing our faith on anything but on Jesus alone. God bless us!
The decisive cause to choose God by your own free-will does not undermine God's sovereignty. God designed that free-will in the first place. He's already above it.
i love piper so much. God bless those who seeks Jesus. Starting today, ill stop seeking the doctrines of Armenian and calvinist. I will just read my bible everyday and seek Him alone. Thank God for all these bible translations. But i believe God will talk to me the way He talked to our fathers in faith. Not starting with any doctrines, just know God alone and obey His commandments.
But the doctrines came from the bible as just a junction of a lot of ideas...
I’m neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist... both have points I agree/disagree with. But I lean more towards Arminianism... the point being, election. Basically calvinists believe that God will cook them their dinner if He wants to... whereas Arminians believe God plants the idea to cook your own dinner, but let’s YOU decide whether you want to cook your meal or not. Obviously this is an analogy but to me, the Calvinism viewpoint makes no sense.
Every Christian should read his book Five Points of a greater experience of the grace of God!!
Couldn't Yahweh put a thought into our head and we not even know that He did? So we might think we had that thought independent from Him? Yes. So Arminism is just believing it was an independent thought from Yahweh's power and Calvinism is saying that I merely think it was my thought but after knowing that Yahweh is LORD and in control of everything. I was saved by His grace alone. I do not consider myself one or the other but I think Calvinism is closer to truth.
Side note: It doesn't't truly matter by my estimation what group is right because if you are a follower of Jesus and you repent of sin whether it was your decision or Yahweh's. You are still doing the best you can to live righteous, to love God, and hate sin.
Curt Christensen that is not what I am saying. I am saying he could give us a thought and not know that that thought was given to us unlike other thoughts we derive ourselves
God is so powerful and sovereign that man's free choices can not influence God's destiny. My God is not the ultimate author of sin, it never enters his mind.
if God would only choose whom he wants to save, then he is unfair. and it would not be a genuine relationship at all. it would be robotic being controlled without any free will to choose to love and follow him willingly.
Holy Spirit convicts the world and points us to Jesus but it is our freewill and decision to love and follow God. If we abide in Christ, the Holy Spirit will produce the fruit in us.
The decisive cause of my belief in Christ was ... (drum roll) ...
From my point of view that most blessed day when I asked the Lord to be my Lord from now on and forever, it seemed like I was the one who made the final decision - upon His offer of salvation and everlasting life together with Him. However, in retrospect of what took place (that most blessed day) I now realize that God chose me from eternety - only He knows why - and He was the One who made me do it by breathing life into my "walking dead" soul.
So it seems like a matter of point of view to me: From my point of view I would consider myself an Arminian, but as I try to see the matter from God's point of view I would have to consider myself a Calvinist.
So what does that make me? An Arminian or a Calvinist?
Birdie Nam it makes you a Christian! A follower of Yeshua! congrats! ;)
Obviously it is God's point of view which is more accurate - which would perhaps make me a Calvinist, more or less. Anyway, do you think it is a valid take on the difference between Arminianism and Calvinism?
A Christian :D XD
This is my take as well, more or less.
It is as if you had wrote about my testimony Brother, lol.
I think starting with explaining thet the five points came from what the Arminians objected to about the Calvinist teaching on salvation helps draw the distinction better than I've seen before.
I've usually come away from these types of videos with the idea thet both sides are saying the same things, in different words.
Of course, you can only say, so much either way without running up against scripture.
I still find myself an Arminian because I believe there's more to belief than faith alone. Faith, as defined in scripture, is inherently supernatural, and God has given each of us a measure of faith, however each must make his own decision, whether to believe, and accept God's grace, and forgiveness, or not.
Arminian-ism vs Calvini-sm it's just what it sounds like.
A sch-ism.
Believers leaning one way or the other and fighting over it.
The way that Piper is wording the differences is putting the other side in a bad light. Claiming they take away God's sovereignty. Well, maybe extremists do, but the Bible does not. The Bible is clear that God is Sovereign. And, the Bible is clear that we will find him when we seek him with all our hearts. He initiates and He makes the final choice, and we respond to Him, accepting or rejecting what he has initiated. We either follow him to the cross, while carrying our own, or we turn around, not wanting to go that far.
A wise man avoids all extremes, ( Ecclesiastes) except the extreme of loving the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength, ( Deuteronomy, Matthew, Luke,...) then loving your neighbor, by ensuring that they are just as well treated and taken care of as you do yourself, or even better then you take care of yourself.
"I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by [ Facebook memes, social media, political podcasts, and attitude t-shirts promoting a certain camp] that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul [Washer]," or "I follow Apo[stolic preachers]," or "I follow [ Charles H Spurgeon] or "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? [Were any of the men] crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of [ John Calvin and Jacob Arminius]?"
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/1co.1.10-13.ESV
I was baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, because of the death and Resurrection of Christ, to the glory of God! I seek to worship Him in Spirit and Truth ( John 4:23)... by the power of the Holy Spirit given to me (Acts 1:8), reminding me of the teachings of God's word (John 14:26) which I have studied to show myself approved ( 2nd Timothy 2:15).
To God be the glory!
In other words, you keep the ten commandments. Or do you.
You do not glorify God if you are a Sunday keeper, you defy him.
best comment ever!!
I really hate when people even big guys who elevate their denomination, or beliefs than the cross and Christ.
aren't we already so divided, why divide more?. I'm a Pentecostal but I do love all of the other "right" denominations. only when someone comes against the gospel must we fight with all our might.
The difference between Calvinists and the Arminianists is that Calvinists cite biblical evidence for everything they teach about the salvation of man, and the Armenianists try to reason the matter (and God's secrets as far as election is concerned) with human logic. In this process, they bypass or distort the Scriptures to suit their position. When all the relevant texts relating to salvation are examined, it becomes evident that regeneration and the ability to believe is God's work and that man has nothing to contribute to it.
All the Good things comes from God , wisdom , knowledge , love , mercy , faithfulness , forgiveness , patience all good in us is from God nothing ours. All bad things is from us hate , lust , lieing, curruption, jealousy, envy , desires of body etc.. Nothing good in us we are useless. Praise the God for Giving us all of this, but not all have it. So praise Him for giving your goodness in you coz its not your own but God's.
We are His chosen sheeps, lets go astray no more and glorify His name in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who gave His life on the cross in behalf of us so that we the lost sheeps of the God will become righteous and He became sinner in behalf of us. The innocent Holy being came on earth to die for our sins as God's Lamb so that we will live eternity in His and our Father presence forever and ever in His Holy promise land. Amen
I have solved the whole Calvinist and Arminian debate. I am now a Calviminian. God saves the Christian through His divine will/choosing through Jesus and absolutely nothing in ourselves, (cuz we were dead), but as shown by Judas, Demas and other scriptures like in Hebrews saying it is impossible to "renew" a person (at some point) to repentance again, tells me that a chosen person can leave the fold and lose their salvation. The essence of the word "renew" gives the clue. If we are NOT going to ignore scripture that clearly shows predestination and election, neither should we ignore or try to theologically make scripture that clearly shows a person can leave the fold and find themselves cutoff eternally from God, say something different!
I used to be a calvinist. But it doesn't fit in the old testament. There's no examples of individual salvation in the old testament. Thats why I dont really believe that second temple Jews actually view salvation like a calvinist does. Calvin's theology only fits in the new testament, even if even does at all (with lots of contradictions in other verses, sometimes in the same chapter).
Free will to believe or not is a fundamental aspect of our existence as God's children. He wants us to love him as our own choice. Otherwise he wouldn't have put the tree of good and evil in the garden of Eden.
There's no works that will bring us closer to God, but believing and having faith isn't a form of work, even Paul said that. Salvation is a gift but it only follows believing loyalty to Christ.
I'd never heard of Arminianism until I read it in one of John Piper's books.
Seek Roger Olson about it
Wesley, Billy Graham, Anglican, most Baptist's , pentecostals etc are Arminian.
Presbyterians are Calvinist.
Lutherans are Lutheran
Yes you have heard of it. Most congregations today are arminian
@@davidsusan1209 Anglicans as judged by the 39 articles is not arminian , infact it is very calvinistic .
Though many Anglicans in practice do not follow the statement of faith.
That definitely made more sense than most answers I heard in the past regarding this question. I think bottom line believe in Christ as Lord and Savior and the work of the cross...
Rebellion? I don't agree with his understanding of salvation. Special Grace?, it reads as common grace, hence Arminianism. Please consider Lydia, the seller of purple.
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[a] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven-not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. From John 6.
I just don't agree with Piper on his last point at all. I can't consider myself a Calvinist... the idea of a covenant involves two parties. God is obviously sovereign and by his sovereignty decided that humanity has the duty to respond to his call. I don't think "the decisive cause" of faith was MYSELF. I see my faith as a response to God's initial call (and that's not saying that God couldn't force me to believe, of course he could).
Jake Livingstone
Mostly agree with you...Except that the covenant was never between you and God. You had no legal grounds to establish covenant with God.
"Choose you this day..." was an old testament principle. Don't get me wrong. Man has responsibility...but the covenant was between Christ and God, God and Christ. We are just helpless bystanders, witnesses*, recipients and beneficiaries of that covenant.
Blessings.
(Btw... I responded to you off the bat. I am open to the possibility that I may have overlooked something whether in scripture or in your comment).
ricplay7890
It seems to me that we are in a covenant with God....
Heb 8: 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 ¶ For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 ¶ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Rom 11: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
God bless you sir.
First, Arminianism and Calvinism can't both be right as they are opposite doctrines. Arminianism says God has made a provision (Jesus) by which we can be saved, but we have to save ourselves by conjuring up faith in Jesus, and placing it upon Him Calvinism says God has saved us completely by Himself, and that that is simply a gift [bestowed] upon us out of His grace and love for His Children. If there is any prerequisite that is required from us to be saved, then God has not saved us - He has only provided the means by which we save ourselves. Pastor John - there you have it - plain and simple
God is still saving us in Arminianism, we are simply consenting. Us accepting salvation does not discredit God's glory or the fact salvation is a free gift from Him and the ultimate testimony to His power, love, and mercy. Just because God isn't dragging us to Heaven kicking and screaming does not mean salvation is entirely credited to Him.
I can't fully accept Calvinism or Arminianism.
- I believe God (through Jesus' sacrifice) alone PROVIDES our salvation
- I believe God is sovereign over all and CAN control all, but does not exercise his sovereignty over our ability to choose him
- We must therefore make the final decisive decision - This does not indicate that salvation is down to us, but rather salvation is PROVIDED by God to ALL, and we choose to elect ourselves
- I do not buy the Arminian mentality of losing your salvation. I would say we HAVE to make the CHOICE to take his gift to be born again, but that we cannot become un-born again.
Conclusion: Salvation is PROVIDED by GOD only, MUST be CHOSEN by us, and is NON-REFUNDABLE! :D
To say the decisive cause of our faith is GOD indicates that we are robots and if God didn't elect you, then you're doomed - this isn't loving!
God IS loving!
What if a born agian Christian walk away from god?is he going to loose salvation or he got license to sin🙏.
Calvinism and Arminianism are just the most popular terms. The most accurate is Synergist and Monergist. You are a Synergist. The issue is the clear dividing line between the two views. I made a completely neutral video addressing both sides. th-cam.com/video/Wpc6ekPCX54/w-d-xo.html
Your conclusion surmises to say that you ascribe to Arminian theology. "- I believe God is sovereign over all and CAN control all, but does not exercise his sovereignty over our ability to choose him." The distinguishing factor is God's sovereignty. you state that you don't believe that God chooses the person, but you believe that the person chooses God... Did you get to choose to be born into this world? Did you get to choose your height, your weight, your eye color, and WHEN you wanted to come into the world? the answer is: no. Our spiritual birth is much like our physical birth, which is why Jesus uses this picture to describe our faith/salvation, in John 3: it had nothing to do with our own works. My question to you: how then does a person who is rebellious to God, because of sin, with a heart pitted against God, come to God to surrender to Him, and receive the peace that He has offered through His son, Jesus Christ? Remember, the unbelieving are enemies in their mind (Colossians 1: 21, Romans 5: 10), toward God: they will not come to him, unless they are called. God regenerates their heart, through the work of the Holy Spirit.
John 3:8 so I guess your argument is basically all are broken so none are good enough to choose God?
Certainly an interesting argument - but your case is that we only know God because he chooses us first. If you consider this deeply, this means the people who aren’t saved, and suffer for eternity, only suffer because God opted to NOT choose them (even before heir birth) - this is not the action of a loving God.
I believe Jesus died so that ANYONE can know Him, not just the pre-chosen.
Well, I am saying that nobody, in their fallen state, has the capacity to choose God, because of the sin of adam and eve, we are all infected by sin. The world is filled with "the walking dead," because through sin came death, and all have fallen short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death. But, it is God who chooses to regenerate a person, to love Him, and proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, to be beacons of light, to draw others off the broad road of destruction and into the narrow path that leads to life, through His living and abiding word. God regenerates, God leads us to know the gospel, God leads us to share the gospel through His own word, and God saves us through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son. 'Jesus answered them, "This is the WORK OF GOD, that YOU BELIEVE in him whom he has sent.' John 6: 29... to even believe, is the work of God: let that settle in your spirit. I am nobody to give counsel to God; I only want to conform to His will. Why did He choose you to believe, and not somebody else? The answer is, for His glory. why did He choose me? I don't know why, but it gives Him glory: those who believe, He chose according to His will, and it gives him glory: it gives meaning to the familiar hymn: 'amazing grace.' It's all to give God glory. Be cautious of creating an idol out of your definition of 'love.' Remember: God is love. Drawing near to God, to understand His word, is understanding the truth of love: that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, according to scriptures, was buried and resurrected according to scriptures, and multiple witnesses saw him after he was resurrected. If you truly believe, then God chose you according to the counsel of His will. If you truly believe, you are a new creation, and you can't go back, even if you wanted to: that's why the picture of birth is given... You can't jump back into your mothers womb. That which is born of the flesh, is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.
Philippians 2:12 . No man can assure you of your salvation.
Yea! But God did.
Do you think its important to decide which you believe, is it OK to say I don't know?
Simon Dismorr sometimes yes, but if the Bible explicitly teaches one thing then obviously not. I think faithful, Bible believing Christians can be in both camps...but I do still think calvinism is more biblical.
Thank you for the reply, I think you are likely right but just cannot say I am sure.
Simon Dismorr I think it is absolutely fine. I myself jokingly refer to myself as a Calminian because I hold remnants from both views. There are some areas in Christianity that I feel are black and white, the virgin birth, the diety of Christ, the cross, the bodily resurrection, a literal hell. But other areas I feel are a difference of opinion.
I think it is not always healthy to decide which you believe. One's view of this topic is tied to their view of God, which is shaped by their own walk of faith in Christ and should be combined with diligent study of God's word.
"No one can come to me unless my Father draws them"
Isn't there room for both to be true? Can't some people come to God on their own and some come to God through God's softening of their heart's?
exactly
As believers in Jesus for our salvation, we should be able to describe how we became Christians without ever using the word "I". Can you do it?
If you cannot do it, you need to look at your "Check Engine" light. You may have a problem.
Pretty good overall, however, he got the small point on sovereignty wrong. Arminians do not hold a lower view of God's sovereignty or limit it, they believe that he is capable of doing all the things that he does under calvinism, but the he just doesn't.
I guess im a calvinist christian
while calvinism does not tell you these directly,it tells us that
-God does not love everybody equally
-he doesnt desire everyone to be saved
-you do not have any freedom of choice
-God plays favourites
-most importantly,There is no real present in this world.Because love is not real love when it is forced or demanded.Like if a robot was programmed to say 'i love you' and act lovingly,that is not genuine real love.(Love requires freewill)
The Bible tells us that God is compassionate for the lost and desires all to be saved,and that is the God i serve.
Something extra for you to think about.if your parents and loved ones dont get saved and do end up in hell,dont worry,the calvinist God wanted them there
Sorry sir. The last three points you made completely misrepresent Calvinism. I suggest you do more research
@@jonathanchan7395nope i didn't represent it .that is what it is .just hard for calvinist to admit.
God doesn't play favorites in Calvinism since the elect are not chosen based on anything they do. In Arminianism God does play favorites since God chooses those who are spiritual enough to exercise faith (hence they are better than others). Giving spirirtual life to people who are dead in sin(eph.2:1), enslaved to sin(John 8:34), unable to come to Christ (john6:44) is a far cry from forcing people to come to Christ. People are born again then believe (1john 5:1). We love because He first loved us (as if we are capable of loving God). The comment "if your parents and loved ones dont get saved and do end up in hell,dont worry,the calvinist God wanted them there" is not a good argument since in Calvinism and Arminianism the final result is the same (you have the same individuals and same number of individuals are saved in the end)
@@jonathanchan7395 if you are predestined to hell and your brother is predestined to heaven for eternity for ,'no reason',that is playing favourites.
Nope, Arminians believe once saved, always saved. If you’re really saved, you cannot fall away to destruction.
That varies.
Boiling it down further, calvinism is God-centred, arminianism is man-centred.
Wrong
@@TheOtherCaleb, you make a compelling argument. Let me make one: NO.
@@michaelsowerby8198 Have you read Arminius?
@@TheOtherCaleb, I could respond by saying, yes and that would be the truth. But I'd rather respond by saying, I've read the Bible and have sincerely sought to understand it, in its context, giving proper weight to its grammar and historicity.
@@michaelsowerby8198 I honestly doubt that you’ve read any Arminius if you think his theology is man-centered.
I think the decisive cause is God… but I think we have the option to resist the Holy Spirit… just like how we have the opportunity to resist the Holy Spirit as born again christians…. Acts 7:51 said it’s possible to resist the Holy Spirit as an unbeliever (technically)
I don't think that Jacobus Arminius or his views ever deliberately hurt anyone. Yet John Calvin felt he was justified in having 58 people burnt at the stake for disagreeing with his views.
So basically Calvinists believe there's no free will
Louis Toledo Free of what?
The biblical term for free will is "dead in trespasses and sins"..
There is no autonomous, libertarian free will, because all people come into the world with a fallen, sinful nature, and are slaves of sin.
@@gregb6469 Yes, we are born in a fallen world, sinful culture, which was never denied, but I don't believe in Calvinism, because they believe that we are completely predetermined, which means God forced us to believe or disbelieve, which is against His nature, because by nature, God is our definition of love, and love has to be mutual, for that kind of relationship God seeks with us. Let me put it like this, have you ever had that one person who liked you, and obsessed over you, but you didn't like them, and it always felt uncomfortable around them? Imagine that person forced you to love them? Is that true love? No, it's not. Predestination/predetermined is not the same as foreknowledge. God bless.
@@palerity6320 -- God does not 'force' anyone to love Him unwillingly. What He does by regenerating a person is straighten up his twisted, distorted view of reality, including of God, so that the person can see God for who He really is, the Supreme Being who is most worthy of being loved.
Calvinism is a theology, NOT a religion ....
The gospel of John teaches richly what is called calvinism
Robert Zanol yes it does! As well as the wonderful miracles of Jesus! God bless you brother
Romans 9 shows that John Calvin was right.
Those who God chose to regenerate will be changed and so they will repent of their sins.
Those who God did not choose will not be changed and they will not repent and they will still be responsible for their sins.
Jacobus Arminius only saw the effects of God's regeneration, but He missed the big picture.
When God regenerates someone, the person obeys God as if it were coming out of their own will.
Mental gymnastic, trying to parse out soteriology on the backs of arguments that have only been around for a couple hundred years, only to have the end result of your theological argument based in the realm of the mind. Salvation isn't an intellectual pursuit but the healing of soul and body through communion with Christ in the Eucharist and the sacramental life of the Church.
I'm an Armenian and I believe that someone who is saved cannot lose there salvation.
Jesusgirl same
If you believe you can Resist Gods Saving Grace, What makes you believe you can’t Resist the Grace that’s keeping you saved.
@@VupzyPlays because since God starts the sanctification, He will finish what He started
Me to, read Roger Olson though
Fernando Gonçalves So you’re saying we don’t have freewill to leave?
Jacob arminius was a calvinist. He studied under Beza Calvins successor
You have Arminians all wrong. Armenians believe it is impossible for a person to come to God unless the Holy Spirit draws him. When He does, then it's up to the person to respond in faith and repentence.
That's literally "Calvinism" though.
Key differences Is Calvinist Believe God Accepts the Person. Armenians believe the Person accepts God . To be honest the calvinist Out look is pretty grim compared to the Armenians
The main difference is in the character of God. Calvinists believe that God has the power to save all people, but prefers to damn many (if not most) people to hell. Arminians believe that God desires to save all people and has provided the means to save all people, but has granted people the ability to resist His saving will.
Notice, the five points of Calvinism (devised by opponents of Calvinism) don't focus on God damning certain people to hell to distinguish it from other theologies. The 5 points don't comment on the character of God - you're actually only appealing to emotion and your subjective opinion of what good and bad characters entail. Think about it.
Instead, the opponents of Calvinism recognised that the big difference was to do with monergistic and synergistic salvation: What is the deciding factor in someone putting their faith in Jesus? Is it man choosing or is it God choosing ultimately? Can man accept or resist the draw of the Father (libertarian free will), or does God have to change his heart? This is the main issue. The five points deal with this.
I would recommend that you try to avoid approaching the arguments with your emotions.
@Christopher Jank That's against God's very own nature, sir. God is the definition of love, and if He forced you to love him, that's not true love. Let me put it like this, have you ever had that one person who liked you, and obsessed over you, but you didn't like them, and it always felt uncomfortable around them? Imagine that person forced you to love them? Is that true love? No, it's not. Predestination/predetermined is not the same as foreknowledge. God bless.
What is a Calvinist's best pick up line? Answer: Hey babe, is your name Grace? Because you are definitely irresistible!
I normally love these post but sorry, this one was a poor answer... it was bias and condescending towards the Armenian view... I still appreciate this channel and enjoy it though
@Felix What part of the clip did you find to be condescending? Please let me know which minute and second marker you are referring to so I can go back and listen.
Arminian. Armenian is he who was born in Armenia
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13). The glory of Salvation is to God only. It would be blasphemy if you even think you have done some input on your Salvation. However, if you do not seek him will all your heart he won't grant you the Salvation and you will be separated eternity in Hell. We all should seek for the truth, instead of proving one doctrine better than other doctrine.
No one will seek God with all their heart unless God choose them . God said all humans are dead spiritually, that why we can’t seek God . We think we did, that’s because of our foolishness thought.
His final point is of course how he wants to phrase it. Salvation is a FREE GIFT, and a gift offered is to be ACCEPTED, not imposed, or it is not a gift, it is an imposition. So free will believers believe we ACCEPT Christ as our Saviour, and Calvinists believe God saves some, and leaves the vast majority to rot in Hell to "prove he is King". You call that "proving you are King"? No!!! What proves the Kingship of God is "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be TO ALL PEOPLE." Luke 2:10 and "For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
John Piper wont repent of his Calvinist trash because he is PROUD. Even when he realises he is directly insulting the character of the Holy Ghost.
Your presupposition of understanding "free will" misleads you. All humans have a will. Nevertheless. it is bound by Satan; hence, there is "no one" who seeks God (reference Scripture). I believe in creaturely will not "free" will since no one desires to seek God.
@@savedby_grace6110 "No one desires to seek God." That's a false presupposition in of itself. I seek God, not because He forced me to, or he predetermined me to, but my choice to seek the Creator! If God predetermined us, we have no free will, and that would be against His very own nature. God by nature, is the definition of love, and love isn't possible if it's forced. Let me put it like this, have you ever had that one person who liked you, and obsessed over you, but you didn't like them, and it always felt uncomfortable around them? Imagine that person forced you to love them? Is that true love? No, it's not. Predestination/predetermined is not the same as foreknowledge. God bless.
@@palerity6320 Romans 3:10-19 English Standard Version (ESV)
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
Is there another viewpoint other than these two?
Yes there are, but these are two of the bigger ones along with Lutheranism.
Of course. One viewpoint is that both of this doctrines are wrong, there is no god, the bible is just a book of fables, people are just highly evolved animals who will eventually all rot in their graves when they die. That's one viewpoint. I don't personally believe that because of the numerous evidences which support the existence of God. Additionally, I've grown up under Armenian teaching and as a child of a United Methodist pastor. When I joined the military, I went with my fellow airmen to a Pentecostal church. I also attended Independent and Southern Baptist (SBD) churches. After retiring from the service, I attended the Church of the Nazarene (Armenian). Following some severe disagreements in the order of worship with other members, I left that church and switched to attending an SBD church with Calvinist teachings after I had searched the scriptures and found more than ample support for both doctrines. The differences to me are all in how you interpret those scriptures and what the context is. Who is the author addressing in some of the key passages? Fellow believers or unbelievers who were present and heard the Word preached to them?
Yes, lutheranism and molinism are 2 other ones
The difference is one doctrine believes that the Lord Jesus Christ, creator of the universe, laid down His life to save the World and provided a way to be saved for everyone. The other believes God creates some for eternal Hell just because He feels like it.
I can live with the knowledge that some of my loved ones will end up in Hell because they willfully rejected Christ's offer of salvation but I cannot believe and live with the knowledge that my loved ones will go to Hell because Christ rejected them. Calvinism is a evil doctrine that redefines our God as the creator of evil.
what if it's both. 💡
***** I think that is a different question. Sovereignty is one thing but how I became saved is another.
I believe a large percentage of Christians believe that it is both because every part of Calvinism and Arminianism is found in the word I stopped trying to wrap my brain around it and chose to believe lol
True. God wants all mankind to be saved. All will come to Him once the veils are lifted. Open the door, buy gold refined in fire, hear the trumpets, wash the robes, get the fuller's soap treatment etc - God's not giving up on us because He is good and good wins. Then come in through the open gates to the New Jerusalem for the free gift. Just read the Bible for what it says.
Piper makes Arminians sound really bad in this by couching it in God-centered vs. Man-centered terms. I don't think his theological opponents would very much appreciate this characterization.
An Arminian may well ask the unbeliever- "What was the decisive cause of your damnation to hell?" to which he must say "God, because he predestined me to unbelief," but the Arminian can say "My choice to reject the Gospel."
It's a matter of how you frame things. No one is helped by such deceptive misrepresentations. If the above example seems unfair to the Calvinist point of view, then you should understand the objection I am raising here.
It's most helpful to always assume the best from other people. Thus I think the key distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism is not the "decisive factor" but the theological emphasis. Calvinism emphasizes God's sovereignty in contrast to man's inability. Arminianism emphasizes God's mercy in contrast to man's responsibility. They answer different questions well and give unsatisfying answers to others. In Calvinism, it's hard to frame a consistent worldview on the idea that we are both predestined in what we do and yet morally responsible for our choices. Arminianism solves the problem of moral responsibility, but makes God's foreknowledge and sovereignty a bit of a puzzle.
If any teaching doesn't lead to Christlikeness, the divine power and love life we see in Christ, freely given by Jesus blood and indwelling spirit, get rid of it. It is not worth following.
I have some reformed friends. They do not understand the Gospel: the restoration of a wo-/man back to the image of God. A very sad thing.
Once spoke with some of their pastors. When i mentioned spiritual giftings given to us by the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Spirit changing us into the image of God again, they looked at me as if they saw water burning.
They really had no clue what i was talking about. They follow some weird doctrine, a teaching of man and forefathers. So sad. Because it leaves a vast community powerless and mere human.
Calvijn on the other hand is pretty ok. I once looked at his writings: a whole chapter was on spiritual gifts by Holy Spirit. Calvijn was pretty spot on. Nowadays Calvinists don't get Calvijn theached but a watered down version.
see, i really believe ppl are so different and have such different lives that both of these views could be true for different people for different reasons. I honestly heard very little difference and i could easily think of situations in my own experiences where all of these 10 points were true!
I was raised Independent Baptist, I identify as Charismstic bc ive seen/experienced too many supernatural things and i married into Egyptian Orthodoxy & find great value in the unchanged traditions, stories and ideas/perspectives. I ALWAYS LOVE JOHN AND HIS PODCASTS/VIDEOS He is definately a patriarch of OUR faith! LET US ALL BE ONE AS HE DESIRES!
i will add, there is much scriptural evidence for both views (possibly just a tad more in the NT for the more Calvinistic one, in referring to all points except predestination). just an opinion! :)
Josh Burdette why can't they both be true? Isn't that putting limitations on what God can and can't do? It may simply be the nature of it is not revealed to us, for whatever reason. Probably because it doesn't affect most believers, as in those with faith.
Calvinism is based on Augustine’s misinterpretation of Scriptures, as he was part of a gnostic sect prior to conversion, furthermore, Augustine couldn’t read the scriptures in Greek, nor could he read the church fathers. Thus the massive disconnect.
Look God has not elected a few people. He has Elected everyone on Earth. John 3:6 says that:"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that so whomever belief in Him will be saved". It says that Jesus died for the whole world not just for some people.
But not everyone will be saved. Right?
I wouldn't "Ask Pastor John." He is ignorant of what Arminius taught and Arminian theology teaches. All his arguments are merely straw men.
As always, Calvinism uses phrases and language to defend its positions and assail its detractors that the Bible does not use. As a Christian (not a Calvinist), you don’t “choose to have faith”, you choose to receive the grace of God and the free gift of righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ. The difference between these two is like day and night, light and darkness, or heaven and hell. Or to put it another way straight out of scripture, “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God”. Reread Paul’s letter to the church in Rome, and especially chapter 10. This is consistent with God’s chosen method of salvation, that is “of faith that it might be in accordance with grace”. Romans 4:16
Nowhere in scripture does it say that God’s grace is irresistible. That is John Calvin’s bad theology. Flee Calvinism and behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 🎚🩸🍞🍷📖🙏🏼
Just to clarify, Arminians don't actually believe that we provide the "impulse of faith" that he was talking about. It's not like we're DOING something to obtain salvation, God does everything inside of us through His grace, it's just a matter of NOT RESISTING. The parable of the lost sheep says that the shepherd will pick up the sheep and carry it, and the sheep just relaxes and lets the Shepherd do His work. It's not really an "impulse". It's more like SURRENDER.
@hudson Do you consider "not resisting" to be doing something or doing nothing. If it's doing something, then the act of not resisting becomes the final reason why the person is saved. If it's doing nothing, then that means it wasn't up to the person at all - put differently, it was entirely because of the grace of God that he chose the person and that person has no cause to boast in their salvation.
T D
If everyone is invited to a party and you decide to show up, would you have reason to boast about being at that party?
If only a select few were chosen to come to a party would they not have a much greater reason to boast?
Those are bad questions to ask since it does not take into account man being in dead in sin (Eph.2:1), a slave of sin (John 8:34), inability to come to Christ (John 6:44). The sovereign grace of God is necessary to make a person spiritually alive to exercise faith. Spiritual rebirth precedes faith (1 John 5:1). No ground for boasting since salvation is entirely brought about by God's grace.
Jonathan Chan
Do you know what it means to be spiritually dead?
Can slaves to sin want freedom from their slavery?
Is it just people who are hardened that cannot come to Christ?...
Jhn 12: 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Have you considered all scripture and tried to make sense of all passages in light of the entire council?
Regeneration happens after faith....
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
All that believed would receive the Spirit after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension....
Jhn 14: 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 15: 26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jhn 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The Holy Spirit is first given here....
Jhn 20: 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
So they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection as Jesus stated in John 7. That’s well after the disciples believed, and many others as well......
Jhn 2: 23 ¶ Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Luk 7: 50 ¶ And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Even after the resurrection, faith still preceded regeneration.....
Eph 1: 13 ¶ In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Just to clarify what regeneration is. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit....
Rom 8: 9 ¶ But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Spiritual life happens after belief.....
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The disciples hadn’t received this life before the resurrection of Christ.....
Jhn 14:19 ¶ Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Peter hadn’t yet been converted.....
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
(Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.)
So can dead men believe?
1Jhn 5 is a test for the churches to identify Gnostics within their congregation. JWs believe that Jesus in the Christ and so do Catholics. Even demons....
Mar 1: 24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
It was a specific test to identify who the real Christians were in their congregation which had been invaded by the Gnostics. You have to read it in context...
1Jhn 2: 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 ¶ Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 ¶ Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 ¶ 👉🏻These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.👈🏻
God bless.
It does not only mean separated from God. It means that a person is characterized by sin just like verses 2 and 3 describes in Ephesians 2." And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest".
Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
Free will believers do not "limit" God's sovereignty. God is King. full stop. Calvinist heretics limit the love of God, and insult the cross of Christ, with a quote "limited atonement".
If God's sovereignty is hindered by man's will that makes man's will sovereign obviously.
Put Calvinists as heretics and i know you are not a nice arminian. Read Wesley's thoughts brother
I am hold Armenians doctrine.........free well....
Read Roger Olson
Don't be beguiled into believing into the false dichotomy of Calvinism vs Arminianism. Both systems of scriptural interpretation are more similar than they are different. Like two sides of the same coin.
The true gospel as written in the holy scriptures, is neither Calvinism nor Arminianism. These have a low view of God and his word, which is why they impose their system of interpretation onto scripture. Instead, read scripture for what it says, and compare scripture with scripture. Don't read commentaries or man's interpretation of scripture.
Psalm 119:108 KJB
"Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments."
Romans 5:18 KJB
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
Romans 1:16 KJB
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
1 Peter 1:23, 25 KJB
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
"But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
In other words, God has created some souls predestined to an eternity in heaven and the rest predestined for an eternity in hell. With all due respect, this is diabolical misinterpretation of the scriptures. 'God is love', and His love extends to all 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'. 2 Peter 3:9
Calvinists are intellectuals. They believe they are the smartest, most accurate people in the room.
You are saved by intellectual understanding and acceptance of their traditional doctrines.
The Calvinist viewpoint is correct
Impults lol
If you are a Sunday keeper, you openly defy God, by your decision. If you do so and are a Calvinist, you are NOT elect. If you do so and are Arminian, you like the Calvinist, will be punished, but still offered salvation.
Cool but you said is rubbish Calvinist believe i God that predestined everyone elect means People who are saved and last sentence is rubbish
@@LitoLochoss Some cognitive dissonance would help.
@@eltonron1558 Worshiping in the sabbath and Sunday don’t matter show me verse says that if you’re worship on Sunday it’s somehow infringing God word. you’re Not God you don’t know who the elect are and you don’t restrain salvation to nobody
@ButNowISee Who said Sunday keepers are not eligible for salvation? It's only a FACT, that Christianity, is identified in Revelation, as those who KEEP the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ. It's not my fault that true Christianity will be a SMALL remnant. 12:17, 14:12, 22:14
@@eltonron1558 Good thing you’re Not God and you don’t make the rules and bible says That’s salvation is a gift of God and no where Bible says sabbath is needed to be kept. You are sabbath keeping cult but i thx God i follow bible not man unlike you do.
Who cares! Piper is wrong being a calvinist freak
Arminian ~ God uses his creativity to create things that can choose things, then uses self control to keep himself from forcing decisions on them.
Calvinist ~ God is more powerful than he is creative.
Calvinism = Violates God's very nature by stating that God eliminates man's will to choose Him or not, because He chose US! That's not true love. Let me put it like this, have you ever had that one person who liked you, and obsessed over you, but you didn't like them, and it always felt uncomfortable around them? Imagine that person forced you to love them? Is that true love? No, it's not. Predestination/predetermined is not the same as foreknowledge. God bless.