I’m a Zen teacher and a psychotherapist, my experience with meditation students is that most have psychological issues that’s why they seek meditation as cheap therapy. I’ve dealt with students coming right out of hospital due to psychotic breakdowns, major anxieties, life challenges etc. that’s not a time for intensive meditation. I recommend only half an hour to an hour a day for those people for several years to have a good foundation before doing anymore than 1 week retreat. Then when trust is built then intensive practice can happen. I always warn people that they will encounter things they don’t like and be ready to enter trauma therapy when negative experiences arises. This approach worked well and my students don’t bite more than what they can chew in spiritual practice. All serious Zen students at some point will have problems with sleep deprivation but not in a negative way, the intensive meditation practice will automatically cause less sleep. What’s most important is to prepare and guide people through intensive phases of meditation that involves hallucinations and psychosis like symptoms. It’s actually not a negative situation if a meditator is prepared to deal with it. Fortunately, the less need for sleep issues in advanced meditator is a temporary phase. I don’t teach visualizing practice other than loving kindness, which I also think it’s lower risk than Tibetan practice. I don’t teach any students who doesn’t observe the precepts on drugs and alcohol. So it eliminates issues with cannabis and drugs. Depersonalization experiences in meditation is pretty normal as long as people doesn’t identify or have delusional ideas of it or isn’t disconnected with reality. I have a friend who is a psychiatrist, when I discussed some experiences I have in advanced meditation, she labels them as psychosis. I right away point out that I’m in no way out of touch with reality. She agrees! “The mystic swims where the madman drowns” is truly my experience with advanced meditation. It’s a narrow path to tread and a good teacher student relationship is so vital in this. People with personality disorder or pre-existing conditions of psychosis or bipolar needs more guidance than the average meditation student, but it’s my experience that they do benefit a lot from meditation with good personalized ongoing guidance.
Even in spiritual work, as in life itself, common sense must be exercised. There is no reason to meditate for hours or do strange exercises. We came into the world to live and act and learn in it. Oxygen, water, food, sex, sleep and love are our earthly foundation. You can prevent them for a period of retreat, but you always have to ask - why? What is the purpose of the intensive practice? In Tantra Yoga a meditation practice of 20-30 minutes a day and a 'good' retreat of 3 days a year can give me energy to act in my daily reality for a whole year. It is not wise to run away from the world, we came to live in the world. Thank you for the very important message of the interview that gives proportions to the spiritual work.
Yes, well said. Many people come to spirituality due to their own trauma and use it as an excuse to hide from and escape from the world, instead of diving into life and learning the valuable and transformative lessons right in front of one's eyes each and every moment.
I think for most people that is true. I recently watched the episode with Willoughby Britton and think she brought up a really important point I had not reflected on before: From a purely Buddhist standpoint, just wanting to function better in life may be possible, but ultimately, it is "wrong view". The reason being that Buddhism aims at eradicating unsatisfactoriness and preventing rebirth (I make no statement on these things as I have not experienced the first and simply don't know about the second). But my point is, if you go into Buddhist meditation you should be aware that it was designed with specific goals. The methods are intended to give you deepening insight into how craving gives rise to unsatisfactoriness, until you realize that it makes sense, which will make you want to continue at least until the first stage of enlightenment. It is fine to have other goals and to want to function optimally as a layman in life, but it is important to understand that Buddhist practices were not designed with that aim in mind. And also, meditation is not a magic pill fixing all psychological issues. It can be helpful for some people, but we still need to consider what type of meditation and intensity of practice is appropriate.
Franz Jalics, a distinguished teacher of Christian meditation and contemplation, emphasized that the most important thing for meditation is to get a really good night's sleep. This is in sharp contrast to the vipassana of Mahasi Sayadaw, which calls for chronic sleep deprivation.
Thank you for that great episode! Very important information to be present on social media - especially when it comes to meditation, trauma and psychotic tendencies. Lots of people pursue "spiritual practice" in an attempt to heal wounds from their own and their families past. And then they end up being disillusioned with spiritual practice. In the worst case, when they encounter "teachers" who knowingly or unknowingly exploit these vulnerabilities, they might end up even more traumatized, alone and disillusioned. Wounds can be and will be healed, when they are addressed in the right way. Then meditation and practice can blossom ❤🙏❤
My experience is that depersonalization caused by meditation is pleasant (sacred, numinous), while depersonalization caused by some pathological process in the brain is terrifying.
Good to hear Caroline speaking up on the touchy subject of the adverse effects of meditation. Some meditation techniques are okay for some, but not for others. She should write a book on the subject. I came across a ground breaking book released in 2005 called the ‘Hidden Dangers of Meditation and Yoga - How to Play with Your Sacred Fires Safely’ by Del Pe, an experienced martial arts teacher & meditator. The book is hard to come by now as most new age & yoga bookshops wouldn’t stock it at the time. Its not a negative book by any means, only the last chapter (22) discusses the Hidden Dangers of Meditation Every Meditator Should Know. It covers Spacey Meditator Syndrome or Yogic Syndrome, Mindlessness Syndrome, Spiritually-Fried Meditators & Yogis, Kundalini Awakening and Dangers of Personality Powers to name a few. It covers in detail these side effects plus it gives solutions to overcome them. A very worthwhile book to have if you meditate and practice yoga.
Great topic!! They’ve been studying meditation for a while now and understand cascading effects of dopamine, nor adrenaline, adrenaline, endorphines, and serotonin in brain and body. Also: Meditation is not a one size fits all. Different personality/body/ energy types do better with specific types of meditation training. For example- doshas: wind type people need calm abiding, bile type need more analytical meditation, phlegm type need more physical activity. People with history of mental illness or family history of mental illness, meditation can set off a psychosis lasting for years. All doctors agree meditation has benefits but both positive and negative side effects, but best to have a long time teacher skilled in meditation.
I may have a chance to listen again.. it's more complicated than "a like". I agree readily with some aspects of the conversation/interview and greatly differ with other aspects..
This is a great topic in Europe where people get into meditation often to avoid problems or resolve those issues by sitting on a cushion. From my point of view we need more talk about what meditation is good for and how to combine that with our health system. Going slower is the best advice also do not trust everyone (guru or not) coming with a “do more” attitude. Take your time to give all of your trust to a meditation teacher (after all he/she is a human being with some mind’s limits).
What a great interview! Thank you both! Very important questions asked! I can recommend Sahanika Ratnayake's great article "The problem of mindfulness". Where she discusses the risks of meditation practice which focus on reaching anatta.
Treat this topic gently, it is an important one. No one should be excluded from meditation. Just as no one should be excluded from breathing fresh air. I think we would all agree. Perhaps it is the instructors who need to get clearer on the guidelines and the methods of instruction. This conversation is an indication of the evolution of our understanding of the benefits of meditation and how to access them.
Sleep for three days . You'll wake up feeling better each time . That's is the best reset you can do once a year. Nothing wrong has ever happened to me sleeping .
@@sandrag9451 I have not experienced it personally but i did meet a few girls years ago who did experience it. I am not an expert on this but i did read a paranormal book years ago that went into some depth about this topic. Each of the people who suffered SP Came back to me years later and let me know that knowing what caused it stopped it from happening. So If you would like to know what i read i can take the time to explain it. No problem Best regards Owen
Thank you for putting that eloquently. I usually use an old fashioned word for such people, ‘sanctimonious’. From puritanical Calvinists to “self help” or “enlightenment” obsessives…same trip, interchangeable characters.
@@MrCmon113 morality is the notion of what is 'good', often based on the collective trauma, ie distortion, and is subject to changing form over generations. Morality is not truth - truth is spontaneous, naturally intelligent and not built upon man-made foundations.
I feel a great sadness listening to this episode. I realise myself along with many others have experienced things outside of the normal medical and societal norm. There is the two polar opposites - the worldy medical model (which doesn't acknowledge other realities/beings/states of consciousness and - The spititual model which see this reality as a simulation or samsara and something we need to escape from through disengaging with worldy concepts and desires. How on earth are we ever going to come to place of peace within ourselves and on the earth with this crazy duality. It makes me so angry and sad and I am really questioning everything atm. Thank you guru viking for trying such honest discussions on both sides of the fence.
Simulation hypothesis is unhelpful bullshit. In many people it can lead to paranoid nihilism. It's just a trendy conjecture that pretends to be science. Also watch out for gnostic-like esoteric cosmologies that paint our reality/planet as a prison hell realm. Paranoid bihilism isn't helpful in any way. If you are looking for a more positive yet still spiritual view of reality, do some research into Buddhist tantra/vajrayana. It views all of creation as sacred. Much more inspiring view to take. BTW you don't need to practice tantra yourself, but you could adopt it's view. ✌️
I suppose I'm as prone to craziness as anyone but I have been meditating for decades now with more gain than loss. I find that it is good way to structure the day to day process of getting through one's life. If you want to meditate you have to exercise moderation in eating, sleeping, drinking, drug use, etc. An immoderate lifestyle, too much alki, too much sex, too many hamburgers, too much work, etc., wrecks meditation so obviously that if you want to incorporate regular meditation in your lifepath, you, perforce, learn to put a curb on your appetites. That being said, I feel that this bright lady speaks very pertinently to this issue of meditation and mental health.
If you are interested in Qi deviations, I highly recommend you check out Damo Mitchell, he has several youtube videos that goes in-depth on this subject in particular: th-cam.com/video/X5d61mJzg5k/w-d-xo.html
You're probably aware, but they have a name for it: Zou huo ru mo. The fact that 'mental health issues' come up so commonly with spiritual practices really makes me wonder if we should be considering them under a psychiatric umbrella at all. Many of those trained in such things are more than happy to define people as sick in such a way (thanks the DSM, which I think should be burned...), but at the same time, some of their methods to 'help' might just be more of a hindrance instead. I'm not saying that those who experience a spiritual breaking point of some sort aren't in need of help, but certainly being defined as mentally ill isn't exactly going to boost their confidence in their ability to cope and see themselves in a positive light (stigma easily being part of why). There is a short article called 'The Shamanic View of Mental Illness' in which a shaman (and Dr.) is quoted as saying "In the shamanic view, mental illness signals “the birth of a healer..". In some ways, I think our society keeps leaping forward in the wrong direction simply because it thinks it sees the mirage of success in the distance. I think that's more mentally ill than anyone exhibiting 'symptoms'.
@@LeftOfToday We are open to that possibility but you have to show, through valid studies and evidence, that excluding psychiatry is enough to help those individuals. And how do we get a uniformed standardized system that can be reliable everywhere, anytime and through all of the teachers. In essence, you have to show us that your approach is better than medicine and neuroscience as e heave it now.
She said it herself she is a beginner at best people should take this interview with a huge grain of salt. Meditation is powerful so if you practise it INCORRECTLY.... expect issues. TH-cam is giving Meditation a bad name because idiots will try anything they see on tiktok etc. Epic fail
It is worrying and disappointing to hear a 'medical therapist' speak so openly and publicly about their clients in such obviously identifiable (and at times rather derogatory and dismissive) ways. Whatever happened to client confidentiality and respect? In any case, one cannot say that everyone needs the same amount of sleep of 8 hours per day anyway. In fact, one of the major benefits of meditation and siddhi realisations is the lack of a need for sleep and having lots of energy. In long retreats, meditators sleep upright in order to break through this supposed 'human construct' necessary for sleep, I personally think she should stick to what she has directly experienced herself rather than make derogatory and gross accusations about a person's mental health based on her limited and 'faulty' perception of meditation and its benefits/effects. Is she an experienced and accomplished meditator? From the way she presents herself and her views in this interview, the answer seems to be a clear 'no'.
@Tara Love I remember reading Seth books by Jane Roberts where Seth, the channelled entity, sugestested that one of the reasons for so much spiritual amnesia among the general public is sleeping for to many hours in one session. Seth suggested four hours as an ideal sleeping pattern with a smaller segment later in yhe day. He argued that sleeping in shorter segments would allow the unconscious and conscious dimensions of persona to integrate and cooperate more fluidly.
I've been meditating since well before social mefis (and I've never listened to teachers on the Internet anyway) . I have spent many years in meditation retreats under supervision of very respected teachers in all three Buddhist schools. So I can tell you that those who give meditation a bad nama are exclusively the bad teachers, incompetent and uninterested (below the surface) in their students - that is: 95% of teachers active in the West, be them Westerners or Asians.
Meditation is a spiritual path and not everybody is ready for this at a certain time; even the so called 'normal' people, not mention people with some mental issues, so trying to cure them with this practice may brings more harm than good unless are you ready. Everybody has his, her own time for this.
Very interesting. Just another point of view on schizophrenia, bipolar to dig in: in a lot of shamanic traditions bipolar, schizophrène are often see as people who might have certain abilities. But no guidance and initiation. Especially in the western world.
Dr Caroline comments are very important. I have been meditating for more than 30 years, and have gone far in hindu and daoist practices. I am also catholic and seen some weird cases. A MAJOR issue is find authentic gurus. Most direct disciples get corrupt and deviate from the truth and become marketeers of spiritual pleasures. A very important intuition she follows is not being prepared, and it is not getting lost on the way and it is mentioned in the Vedas as well as mystics as Saint Theresa and Saint John of the Cross an experience of anyone in the mystical path. Anyhow both Daoist and hindu religions are completely incompatible and as Maharishi suggested... .. One must really be well grounded in the personal Tradition before looking at others..... Some others say... Why looking for Buda if you already found him.... Others beware us becoming a spiritual tourist
Show discovered with A. Mizner interview. In my opinion, this episode is of paramount importance. My own childhood conditions and my intuition lead me to very light / shallow practices. Glad psychiatric expert like this lady confirmed that. Blessings and prayers from France.
Useful and interesting …. Thank you both. Skilful means. My understanding is that pschychiatry as a branch of western medicine is developed at observing behaviours, organising these into symptom groupings and providing a diagnostic label. It is however a model rather than a mature objective science, and I appreciate a biochemical perspective woven with other models. I think the good Dr did a nice job here. On the difference between psychiatric label of disassociation and a Buddhist realisation of emptiness of a fixed self, perhaps the those with a psychiatric experience have past life influences of partial realisations of emptiness of self, (wisdom) but are weaker on the compassion side of things? Someone with a dissociative tendency is observed by the Dr as something in the eyes. The eyes of a well developed metta practitioner show something more socially attuned. Any thoughts?
Psychiatric dissociations are at their core often a coping mechanism and a reaction to personal or transgenerational trauma. So they kind of try to evade reality in order to deal with it. Which is often a needed form of protection in order to deal with things one is not yet able to integrate into ones personality. I think its this reactional quality that ultimately makes the difference. In Buddhist practice emptiness is approached through everyday shared reality and its objects, which - upon investigation - are experienced as having no inherent existencen. At least when one follows Chandrakirti, who is in most (tibetan) schools seen as the formost interpreter of Nagarjuna. He says in his "Introduction to the Middle Way": "Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things that common people designate dependent on their parts, accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!" The Buddha accepted everyday reality as it is. Everyday reality appears, yet it lacks "substance". This view of emptiness doesn't need to evade normal reality but rather takes it as its starting point for contemplation and meditation. In that way it is very earthy and grounded and is not at odd whith everyday reality. Thats why the it can be problematic when people "spiritualize" these coping mechanisms. You can also see this a lot with people leaning towards Vedanta, who are mistaking the trauma based dissociation as the "witness-consciousness" (sakshi bhava). John Welwood coined the term "spiritual bypassing" for these things in his book "Towards a psychology of awakening". Dr. Van Damme also refers to this term in the interview.
It seems that interviewee is completely oblivious about the view of emptiness and how it works as an antidote for grasping at meditative experience. Vision of Buddha is as mirage-like as any other experience. Result of proper practice is lessening of suffering, not multiplying it. If a person gets psychotic break from deity yoga - was practice a main cause or conductive cause, i.e. providing ''content'' of delusion? Experienced 10+ year practitioners I know function better than ''normal'' people and have more freedom as a result of lessened grasping at reality of experience. Indiscriminate use of ''ego'' in context of buddhist philosophy of mind is another problem. One thing that any scientist and yogin should develop is critical examination of their mind, experience, biases, thought patterns that affect judgement. My impression was that interviewee is quite anxious as a result her clinical experience and didn't learn much of buddhist philosophy, thus lacking understanding ''how is works'' and substituting lack of knowledge with western concepts. In fact, it's a common problem among western converts and part-time meditators. Action driven by anxiety isn't a skillful action.
I think the problem is, that a lot of people start "practice" without knowing how vital these basic things are. For most people this will be misleading and will result in unsatisfactory practice and frustration with the Dharma. But there are people that are vulnerable to psychosis etc. and i think her focus in this Interview was on this group. So I can kind of undestand that she is concerned for those people, based on the experiences clinical psychiatrists have. People suffering form sever clinical conditions - sometimes also people with vulneabilities - are not in a place where you should engage with such practices. Neither are they in the condition to learn about emptiness and basic meditation. They need to heal first.
@@AD-rz7sg I agree on people who are in severe state, but those ''vulnerable'' can benefit from Sutra level approach and practice. Focused on developing virtues and right view, not long sitting sessions. Emptiness, if teached properly (not in nihilistic sense), will help to disengage with persisting mental states. Finding vulnerabilities and traumas is a big trend in modern psychology. It may be more about creating vision of a problem to solve and provide "help" for a good price. Don't take me wrong, I don't suggest on denying issues, but excessive focus on a problem (in some cases - imagining a problem) or approaching it from wrong angle can make it bigger than it is.
@@MantrinDharmananda I agree 100%. Sutra training will be very helpful for people with vulnerabilities. Especially since they - most of the time - have family members with more servere problems. It will help them to deal with all of that suffering in a practical way. I was just talking about esoteric practices. I also agree on the potential harm of focusing almost exclusively on vulnerabilities and problems. Fortunately newer theories and therapies are a lot of times more focused on processing trauma by seeing and integrating both, the "wound" and the "inherent positive potential", instead of just "exploring "trauma again and again. A lot of time the progression is: Accepting that there was trauma - adopting the identiy of a survivor - letting go of the identity as survivor. It is a quite natural progression. Staying stuck in the narrative of the trauma often tends only to solidify it. 😬
Agree, the interviewees lack of meditative experience and realisations, and what seems to be her clear need for sleep/energy/rest, was obvious throughout the interview. Combined with her lack of confidentiality and respect for her clients I would say would only further traumatise people she 'treats'. Would not trust such a 'medical therapist' at all as they may lead to more trauma and misunderstanding if people are genuinely mentally unwell.
psychotic people first need to develop healthy ego (through psychotherapy - can use mindfulness related practice to achieve developement of healthy ego) and then only start Buddhist proper shamatha (calm/concentration) meditation followed by vipassana (analysis of the reality of oneself and existence - dependent origination and then egolessness / emptiness / awakening/selflessness. i think the problem with lot of Westerners trying to put all these different concepts and methods of contemplative practices together without graduated systematic path as its done in eastern traditions is the reason for the problems (or you called adverse effects) for the one who introduces and the client/student.
Thank you both! If the Teacher, The Practice and The Community are Causing suffering it's time to walk away. The Buddha (walked away from Self Starvation), Jesus (walked away from Judaism), Abraham (decided not to kill Issac his first born as god demanded) ect. all walked away from their previous ways. They then found a new way to practice because the old way was no longer helpful.
Kinda makes ya wonder about the ideology behind the phrase “mental health”. It’s a powerful phrase, as it instantly and insistently equates a “good” mind with a hygienic/healthy mind. Just seems kinda transparent to me, that sort of propagandistic phrase would be a really great tool for controlling a whole bunch of people without a ton of physical force. 🤔
People with psychological disorders are excluded from many "mindfulness" retreats UNLESS they get an ok from their doctor. This takes the responsibility off the meditation organisation. These organisations are not hospitals and therefore do not have the resources to deal with psychotic episodes It can seem like they're being stigmatised but episodes have frequently occurred in the past which have been detrimental to the 'patient' as well as traumatic to other meditators on these retreats. The organisations also have to protect themselves from litigation. This is wisdom. Litigation is one of the world's favorite sports, especially in the US. Some people with psych problems are at their wits end and hear that such and such a meditation retreat is good for the mind. They then find out that mental health problems can cause them to be excluded. This desperation of "the last chance" then leads to these people lying on their application form when the question is-" Do you have any psychological illnesses". Simple "yes/no" answer. "Yes" may get me excluded, "No" gets me in... These forms are to be filled out in good faith and trust as no further interviews are usually held. It can be a "Catch 22" situation. It is not about stigmatising people with mental health problems by these meditation organisations, it is all about "Duty of Care" to all and sundry.
Psychiatry and clinical psychology have value as therapeutic modalities, but they are also beholden to ideological regimes, like any other fields of discipline, and have a history of some very harmful practices, to put it mildly. Normative behavior as a benchmark standard is already somewhat fraught, as humans show such enormous diversity in most aspects of culture and individual behavior. Perennialism/universalism/foundationalism as an aspect of any ideology is often inherently self-contradictory, as both Nagarjuna and Derrida told us.
I agree with the genreal statement, but have you actually witnessed people suffering from a psychotic breakdown? I mean she is working with clinical patients, not with people dealing with everyday neurosis. Those patiens suffer from severe anxiety, fear and loss of reality. I don't think that Nagarjuna would have advised not to help people who are severly suffering. Yes, there is ideology and lots problems in classification and institution but the suffering is real. Psychiatrasist like Dr. Van Damme, who are willing and able to look beyond their traning are of an immense value and are a blessing for those people who are struggeling, often pushed to the fringes of social life and sedated instead of helped.
@@AD-rz7sg You make it sound like I was criticizing her…I was not. I said psychiatry is helpful, with caveats, and I did not say that Nagarjuna (or Derrida) said to ignore suffering or not help others. I have witnessed many people experiencing psychotic breaks, both in public since I live in a large American city with an huge homeless population and I take the bus and walk everywhere, and also I have had several friends over the years suffer psychotic breaks. So yes, I’ve seen it close and personal. I don’t understand your comment, you say you agreed then you go implying I expressed opinions which I did not and accused me of knowing nothing about psychosis…what is your angle? Nobody needs to defend Van Damme, as I was not critiquing or attacking her in the least. Chill out person.
@@baizhanghuaihai2298 As I said, I totally agree with you statement on normativity and powerdynamic etc.. I didn't get the impression that you were critizizing her but I might have gotten your statement about Nagrajuna wrong. Maybe based on the introductionof Derrida in the mix. I thougt that you alluded at the fact, that all categories can somehow be deconstructed and are therefor irrelevant. Clinicial diagnosis comes with a lot of problems but It has its merits as far as it is able to help somebody. Its a dance on the razors edge. But as I said - I seem to have gotten you wrong. My question about having witnessed people with psychotic breakdowns was not personally aimed at you, but intended more generally, since a lot of peopel in the comment section - and everyday life - seem to not get the severity of what the patients Dr. Van Damme is talking about are going throug. (I'm no native speaker) I have, like you, had some friends that sufferd from psychotic breakdown and were never really able to get the chance at a "normal" life. I think your statement about homelessness aims at an important point, since it underlines how much people with these problem are pushed to the fringes of society. Thats why i just wanted to underline how precious it is that somebody within this field - which is heavy with ideology, disillusion and the imperative to sedate people - is looking beyond the standard training. You don't find many people like this. So what I have answered might have been more influences by the general impresson of the statements I have read in the comments then just on what you have written. I'm sorry if I offended you - this wasn't my intention 🙏
I am highly disturbed by the fact that a therapist would thrust a Buddhist spiritual practice like meditation onto her vulnerable patient, particularly one who has told her she is a Christian. Highly unethical and spiritually dangerous.
Why? There is meditation in the Christian tradition too and the patient explicitly appreciated its positive effects on her life. Or do you propose you know better than the patient herself?
Too much anything must be bad, on a common sense level. If you are unfit, and try to run a marathon, you will break down half way. On scientific note, not enough studies are available on meditation, and the relationships between personality types and meditation ought to be studied more. My impression with the doctor from Belgium is she's not too informed on meditative practices on a personal level as she admits. She's looking at it from Western medical perspective. This is useful, but also one sided.
Agree, the gross generalisations about meditation here from someone who is clearly not an accomplished practitioner of meditation, or with realisation of emptiness is worrying and whose advice should be taken lightly.
Finally the BS of meditation has been revealed ...she is correct very 🐌 slowly and small amounts I despise all these down talking monks and so called mediation experts...long bizzare retreats where sleep depravation is ok!? Magical explanations of special powers ..Crap..I have 20 years of Buddhist practice experience and I have met many bizarre arrogant teachers who were losers in life and now walk around in robes like a gods ...reading books than verbatim repeating them as if they were there own experience .Time to unveil this nonsense like all cults.Good job Doctor Van.!
El movimiento de sus ojos indican que es un ser perturbado. Claro, siendo siquiatra! Necesita entrar en el silencio de la meditación verdadera. No entendió nunca.
It is worrying and disappointing to hear a 'medical therapist' speak so openly and publicly about their clients in such obviously identifiable (and at times rather derogatory and dismissive) ways. Whatever happened to client confidentiality and respect? In any case, one cannot say that everyone needs the same amount of sleep of 8 hours per day anyway. In fact, one of the major benefits of meditation and siddhi realisations is the lack of a need for sleep and having lots of energy. In long retreats, meditators sleep upright in order to break through this supposed 'human construct' necessary for sleep, I personally think she should stick to what she has directly experienced herself rather than make derogatory and gross accusations about a person's mental health based on her limited and 'faulty' perception of meditation and its benefits/effects. Is she an experienced and accomplished meditator? From the way she presents herself and her views in this interview, the answer seems to be a clear 'no'.
Meditation is what you do once you have mastered virtue. Meditation is what you do at the END of training. Not at the beginning. You westerners have got it backwards. It’s like a Christian getting baptized after the funeral.
Find the middle way. I'm Buddhist...so for me, imagining that I am a God certainly would not align with my practice....take a look at body based practices. This practice helped me overcome PTSD, 25 years ago....but this is not a practice to be taken lightly....it's not a weight-loss program...it's a 5,0000-10,0000 year old practice...you can't go home again.
I’m a Zen teacher and a psychotherapist, my experience with meditation students is that most have psychological issues that’s why they seek meditation as cheap therapy. I’ve dealt with students coming right out of hospital due to psychotic breakdowns, major anxieties, life challenges etc. that’s not a time for intensive meditation. I recommend only half an hour to an hour a day for those people for several years to have a good foundation before doing anymore than 1 week retreat. Then when trust is built then intensive practice can happen. I always warn people that they will encounter things they don’t like and be ready to enter trauma therapy when negative experiences arises. This approach worked well and my students don’t bite more than what they can chew in spiritual practice.
All serious Zen students at some point will have problems with sleep deprivation but not in a negative way, the intensive meditation practice will automatically cause less sleep. What’s most important is to prepare and guide people through intensive phases of meditation that involves hallucinations and psychosis like symptoms. It’s actually not a negative situation if a meditator is prepared to deal with it. Fortunately, the less need for sleep issues in advanced meditator is a temporary phase.
I don’t teach visualizing practice other than loving kindness, which I also think it’s lower risk than Tibetan practice.
I don’t teach any students who doesn’t observe the precepts on drugs and alcohol. So it eliminates issues with cannabis and drugs.
Depersonalization experiences in meditation is pretty normal as long as people doesn’t identify or have delusional ideas of it or isn’t disconnected with reality. I have a friend who is a psychiatrist, when I discussed some experiences I have in advanced meditation, she labels them as psychosis. I right away point out that I’m in no way out of touch with reality. She agrees!
“The mystic swims where the madman drowns” is truly my experience with advanced meditation. It’s a narrow path to tread and a good teacher student relationship is so vital in this.
People with personality disorder or pre-existing conditions of psychosis or bipolar needs more guidance than the average meditation student, but it’s my experience that they do benefit a lot from meditation with good personalized ongoing guidance.
Nonsense sleep depravation is dangerous nice try
"Depersonalization" huh? Funny how some people just get enlightened spontaneously.
This is why the Teacher is so critical. I also work in a first episode psychosis program and have cognitive therapy for psychosis training.
Even in spiritual work, as in life itself, common sense must be exercised. There is no reason to meditate for hours or do strange exercises. We came into the world to live and act and learn in it. Oxygen, water, food, sex, sleep and love are our earthly foundation. You can prevent them for a period of retreat, but you always have to ask - why? What is the purpose of the intensive practice? In Tantra Yoga a meditation practice of 20-30 minutes a day and a 'good' retreat of 3 days a year can give me energy to act in my daily reality for a whole year. It is not wise to run away from the world, we came to live in the world. Thank you for the very important message of the interview that gives proportions to the spiritual work.
Good point
Yes, well said. Many people come to spirituality due to their own trauma and use it as an excuse to hide from and escape from the world, instead of diving into life and learning the valuable and transformative lessons right in front of one's eyes each and every moment.
Enlightenment is more worth it
I think for most people that is true.
I recently watched the episode with Willoughby Britton and think she brought up a really important point I had not reflected on before: From a purely Buddhist standpoint, just wanting to function better in life may be possible, but ultimately, it is "wrong view". The reason being that Buddhism aims at eradicating unsatisfactoriness and preventing rebirth (I make no statement on these things as I have not experienced the first and simply don't know about the second). But my point is, if you go into Buddhist meditation you should be aware that it was designed with specific goals. The methods are intended to give you deepening insight into how craving gives rise to unsatisfactoriness, until you realize that it makes sense, which will make you want to continue at least until the first stage of enlightenment.
It is fine to have other goals and to want to function optimally as a layman in life, but it is important to understand that Buddhist practices were not designed with that aim in mind.
And also, meditation is not a magic pill fixing all psychological issues. It can be helpful for some people, but we still need to consider what type of meditation and intensity of practice is appropriate.
Franz Jalics, a distinguished teacher of Christian meditation and contemplation, emphasized that the most important thing for meditation is to get a really good night's sleep. This is in sharp contrast to the vipassana of Mahasi Sayadaw, which calls for chronic sleep deprivation.
Thank you for that great episode! Very important information to be present on social media - especially when it comes to meditation, trauma and psychotic tendencies. Lots of people pursue "spiritual practice" in an attempt to heal wounds from their own and their families past. And then they end up being disillusioned with spiritual practice. In the worst case, when they encounter "teachers" who knowingly or unknowingly exploit these vulnerabilities, they might end up even more traumatized, alone and disillusioned. Wounds can be and will be healed, when they are addressed in the right way. Then meditation and practice can blossom ❤🙏❤
My experience is that depersonalization caused by meditation is pleasant (sacred, numinous), while depersonalization caused by some pathological process in the brain is terrifying.
True
Very important topic. Thank you for making it available to all 💪🏼😇
Good to hear Caroline speaking up on the touchy subject of the adverse effects of meditation. Some meditation techniques are okay for some, but not for others. She should write a book on the subject. I came across a ground breaking book released in 2005 called the ‘Hidden Dangers of Meditation and Yoga - How to Play with Your Sacred Fires Safely’ by Del Pe, an experienced martial arts teacher & meditator. The book is hard to come by now as most new age & yoga bookshops wouldn’t stock it at the time. Its not a negative book by any means, only the last chapter (22) discusses the Hidden Dangers of Meditation Every Meditator Should Know. It covers Spacey Meditator Syndrome or Yogic Syndrome, Mindlessness Syndrome, Spiritually-Fried Meditators & Yogis, Kundalini Awakening and Dangers of Personality Powers to name a few. It covers in detail these side effects plus it gives solutions to overcome them. A very worthwhile book to have if you meditate and practice yoga.
One wishes this kind of advice was given in advance to everyone. I feel it could prevent some suffering.
So grateful for this interview and Dr van Damme's work 🙏
Great topic!! They’ve been studying meditation for a while now and understand cascading effects of dopamine, nor adrenaline, adrenaline, endorphines, and serotonin in brain and body. Also: Meditation is not a one size fits all. Different personality/body/ energy types do better with specific types of meditation training. For example- doshas: wind type people need calm abiding, bile type need more analytical meditation, phlegm type need more physical activity. People with history of mental illness or family history of mental illness, meditation can set off a psychosis lasting for years. All doctors agree meditation has benefits but both positive and negative side effects, but best to have a long time teacher skilled in meditation.
Wonderful information! Thanks to you and Dr Van Damme for her expertise. It'll help my practice meditation.
I may have a chance to listen again.. it's more complicated than "a like". I agree readily with some aspects of the conversation/interview and greatly differ with other aspects..
This is a great topic in Europe where people get into meditation often to avoid problems or resolve those issues by sitting on a cushion.
From my point of view we need more talk about what meditation is good for and how to combine that with our health system.
Going slower is the best advice also do not trust everyone (guru or not) coming with a “do more” attitude.
Take your time to give all of your trust to a meditation teacher (after all he/she is a human being with some mind’s limits).
What a great interview! Thank you both!
Very important questions asked! I can recommend Sahanika Ratnayake's great article "The problem of mindfulness". Where she discusses the risks of meditation practice which focus on reaching anatta.
Treat this topic gently, it is an important one. No one should be excluded from meditation. Just as no one should be excluded from breathing fresh air. I think we would all agree. Perhaps it is the instructors who need to get clearer on the guidelines and the methods of instruction. This conversation is an indication of the evolution of our understanding of the benefits of meditation and how to access them.
Sleep for three days .
You'll wake up feeling better each time . That's is the best reset you can do once a year.
Nothing wrong has ever happened to me sleeping .
Generally true, although sleep apnea can be quite dangerous, especially for obese people.
Then you haven´t experienced sleep paralysis which is quite scary.
@@sandrag9451 I have not experienced it personally but i did meet a few girls years ago who did experience it.
I am not an expert on this but i did read a paranormal book years ago that went into some depth about this topic.
Each of the people who suffered SP Came back to me years later and let me know that knowing what caused it stopped it from happening. So If you would like to know what i read i can take the time to explain it. No problem
Best regards
Owen
Moral elitism is definitely one of them
Thank you for putting that eloquently. I usually use an old fashioned word for such people, ‘sanctimonious’. From puritanical Calvinists to “self help” or “enlightenment” obsessives…same trip, interchangeable characters.
Huh? That's a positive effect.
@@MrCmon113 morality is the notion of what is 'good', often based on the collective trauma, ie distortion, and is subject to changing form over generations. Morality is not truth - truth is spontaneous, naturally intelligent and not built upon man-made foundations.
One of what? This was incoherent, vague, and smells of christofascism. Yikes
She is fantastic. Your questions were also very good. Thank you. Both of your humility and intuitive natures are inspiring.
I feel a great sadness listening to this episode. I realise myself along with many others have experienced things outside of the normal medical and societal norm. There is the two polar opposites - the worldy medical model (which doesn't acknowledge other realities/beings/states of consciousness and - The spititual model which see this reality as a simulation or samsara and something we need to escape from through disengaging with worldy concepts and desires. How on earth are we ever going to come to place of peace within ourselves and on the earth with this crazy duality. It makes me so angry and sad and I am really questioning everything atm. Thank you guru viking for trying such honest discussions on both sides of the fence.
Read authors like Jane Roberts and her channelled Seth works. There are better models of reality than the ones you mentioned.
Simulation hypothesis is unhelpful bullshit. In many people it can lead to paranoid nihilism. It's just a trendy conjecture that pretends to be science. Also watch out for gnostic-like esoteric cosmologies that paint our reality/planet as a prison hell realm. Paranoid bihilism isn't helpful in any way.
If you are looking for a more positive yet still spiritual view of reality, do some research into Buddhist tantra/vajrayana. It views all of creation as sacred. Much more inspiring view to take. BTW you don't need to practice tantra yourself, but you could adopt it's view. ✌️
Very nice and helpful
I suppose I'm as prone to craziness as anyone but I have been meditating for decades now with more gain than loss. I find that it is good way to structure the day to day process of getting through one's life. If you want to meditate you have to exercise moderation in eating, sleeping, drinking, drug use, etc. An immoderate lifestyle, too much alki, too much sex, too many hamburgers, too much work, etc., wrecks meditation so obviously that if you want to incorporate regular meditation in your lifepath, you, perforce, learn to put a curb on your appetites. That being said, I feel that this bright lady speaks very pertinently to this issue of meditation and mental health.
Can't wait! I'd also like to hear something on the adverse effects of Qigong in the future. All of these interviews are really great!
If you are interested in Qi deviations, I highly recommend you check out Damo Mitchell, he has several youtube videos that goes in-depth on this subject in particular: th-cam.com/video/X5d61mJzg5k/w-d-xo.html
Yes me too! Been practicing meditation non stop since 1975
You're probably aware, but they have a name for it: Zou huo ru mo. The fact that 'mental health issues' come up so commonly with spiritual practices really makes me wonder if we should be considering them under a psychiatric umbrella at all. Many of those trained in such things are more than happy to define people as sick in such a way (thanks the DSM, which I think should be burned...), but at the same time, some of their methods to 'help' might just be more of a hindrance instead. I'm not saying that those who experience a spiritual breaking point of some sort aren't in need of help, but certainly being defined as mentally ill isn't exactly going to boost their confidence in their ability to cope and see themselves in a positive light (stigma easily being part of why).
There is a short article called 'The Shamanic View of Mental Illness' in which a shaman (and Dr.) is quoted as saying "In the shamanic view, mental illness signals “the birth of a healer..". In some ways, I think our society keeps leaping forward in the wrong direction simply because it thinks it sees the mirage of success in the distance. I think that's more mentally ill than anyone exhibiting 'symptoms'.
@@LeftOfToday We are open to that possibility but you have to show, through valid studies and evidence, that excluding psychiatry is enough to help those individuals. And how do we get a uniformed standardized system that can be reliable everywhere, anytime and through all of the teachers. In essence, you have to show us that your approach is better than medicine and neuroscience as e heave it now.
You mean the adverse side effects of doing qigong WRONG? Hint hint
Your intros are super on point!
Thank you!!
Great episode , I feel like it only makes sense to also have a willoughby britton episode at some point yes?
She said it herself she is a beginner at best people should take this interview with a huge grain of salt. Meditation is powerful so if you practise it INCORRECTLY.... expect issues. TH-cam is giving Meditation a bad name because idiots will try anything they see on tiktok etc.
Epic fail
I agree. See my comment on this too about breaching confidentiality of her clients in rather dismissive tone and way.
It is worrying and disappointing to hear a 'medical therapist' speak so openly and publicly about their clients in such obviously identifiable (and at times rather derogatory and dismissive) ways. Whatever happened to client confidentiality and respect? In any case, one cannot say that everyone needs the same amount of sleep of 8 hours per day anyway. In fact, one of the major benefits of meditation and siddhi realisations is the lack of a need for sleep and having lots of energy. In long retreats, meditators sleep upright in order to break through this supposed 'human construct' necessary for sleep, I personally think she should stick to what she has directly experienced herself rather than make derogatory and gross accusations about a person's mental health based on her limited and 'faulty' perception of meditation and its benefits/effects. Is she an experienced and accomplished meditator? From the way she presents herself and her views in this interview, the answer seems to be a clear 'no'.
@Tara Love I remember reading Seth books by Jane Roberts where Seth, the channelled entity, sugestested that one of the reasons for so much spiritual amnesia among the general public is sleeping for to many hours in one session. Seth suggested four hours as an ideal sleeping pattern with a smaller segment later in yhe day. He argued that sleeping in shorter segments would allow the unconscious and conscious dimensions of persona to integrate and cooperate more fluidly.
You should check out what Willoughby Britton has to say on this topic.
I've been meditating since well before social mefis (and I've never listened to teachers on the Internet anyway) . I have spent many years in meditation retreats under supervision of very respected teachers in all three Buddhist schools. So I can tell you that those who give meditation a bad nama are exclusively the bad teachers, incompetent and uninterested (below the surface) in their students - that is: 95% of teachers active in the West, be them Westerners or Asians.
Meditation is a spiritual path and not everybody is ready for this at a certain time; even the so called 'normal' people, not mention people with some mental issues, so trying to cure them with this practice may brings more harm than good unless are you ready. Everybody has his, her own time for this.
Very interesting. Just another point of view on schizophrenia, bipolar to dig in: in a lot of shamanic traditions bipolar, schizophrène are often see as people who might have certain abilities. But no guidance and initiation. Especially in the western world.
The host here let the guest speak without interrupting for long time
Dr Caroline comments are very important. I have been meditating for more than 30 years, and have gone far in hindu and daoist practices. I am also catholic and seen some weird cases. A MAJOR issue is find authentic gurus. Most direct disciples get corrupt and deviate from the truth and become marketeers of spiritual pleasures. A very important intuition she follows is not being prepared, and it is not getting lost on the way and it is mentioned in the Vedas as well as mystics as Saint Theresa and Saint John of the Cross an experience of anyone in the mystical path. Anyhow both Daoist and hindu religions are completely incompatible and as Maharishi suggested... .. One must really be well grounded in the personal Tradition before looking at others..... Some others say... Why looking for Buda if you already found him.... Others beware us becoming a spiritual tourist
Catholicism rolled you. Not once you mention jesus
Show discovered with A. Mizner interview.
In my opinion, this episode is of paramount importance.
My own childhood conditions and my intuition lead me to very light / shallow practices.
Glad psychiatric expert like this lady confirmed that.
Blessings and prayers from France.
Useful and interesting …. Thank you both. Skilful means. My understanding is that pschychiatry as a branch of western medicine is developed at observing behaviours, organising these into symptom groupings and providing a diagnostic label. It is however a model rather than a mature objective science, and I appreciate a biochemical perspective woven with other models. I think the good Dr did a nice job here.
On the difference between psychiatric label of disassociation and a Buddhist realisation of emptiness of a fixed self, perhaps the those with a psychiatric experience have past life influences of partial realisations of emptiness of self, (wisdom) but are weaker on the compassion side of things? Someone with a dissociative tendency is observed by the Dr as something in the eyes. The eyes of a well developed metta practitioner show something more socially attuned. Any thoughts?
Psychiatric dissociations are at their core often a coping mechanism and a reaction to personal or transgenerational trauma. So they kind of try to evade reality in order to deal with it. Which is often a needed form of protection in order to deal with things one is not yet able to integrate into ones personality. I think its this reactional quality that ultimately makes the difference.
In Buddhist practice emptiness is approached through everyday shared reality and its objects, which - upon investigation - are experienced as having no inherent existencen. At least when one follows Chandrakirti, who is in most (tibetan) schools seen as the formost interpreter of Nagarjuna. He says in his "Introduction to the Middle Way":
"Vases, canvas, bucklers, armies, forests, garlands, trees
houses, chariots, hostelries, and all such things
that common people designate dependent on their parts,
accept as such. For Buddha did not quarrel with the world!"
The Buddha accepted everyday reality as it is. Everyday reality appears, yet it lacks "substance". This view of emptiness doesn't need to evade normal reality but rather takes it as its starting point for contemplation and meditation. In that way it is very earthy and grounded and is not at odd whith everyday reality.
Thats why the it can be problematic when people "spiritualize" these coping mechanisms. You can also see this a lot with people leaning towards Vedanta, who are mistaking the trauma based dissociation as the "witness-consciousness" (sakshi bhava). John Welwood coined the term "spiritual bypassing" for these things in his book "Towards a psychology of awakening". Dr. Van Damme also refers to this term in the interview.
It seems that interviewee is completely oblivious about the view of emptiness and how it works as an antidote for grasping at meditative experience. Vision of Buddha is as mirage-like as any other experience. Result of proper practice is lessening of suffering, not multiplying it. If a person gets psychotic break from deity yoga - was practice a main cause or conductive cause, i.e. providing ''content'' of delusion? Experienced 10+ year practitioners I know function better than ''normal'' people and have more freedom as a result of lessened grasping at reality of experience.
Indiscriminate use of ''ego'' in context of buddhist philosophy of mind is another problem. One thing that any scientist and yogin should develop is critical examination of their mind, experience, biases, thought patterns that affect judgement.
My impression was that interviewee is quite anxious as a result her clinical experience and didn't learn much of buddhist philosophy, thus lacking understanding ''how is works'' and substituting lack of knowledge with western concepts. In fact, it's a common problem among western converts and part-time meditators. Action driven by anxiety isn't a skillful action.
I think the problem is, that a lot of people start "practice" without knowing how vital these basic things are. For most people this will be misleading and will result in unsatisfactory practice and frustration with the Dharma. But there are people that are vulnerable to psychosis etc. and i think her focus in this Interview was on this group. So I can kind of undestand that she is concerned for those people, based on the experiences clinical psychiatrists have. People suffering form sever clinical conditions - sometimes also people with vulneabilities - are not in a place where you should engage with such practices. Neither are they in the condition to learn about emptiness and basic meditation. They need to heal first.
@@AD-rz7sg I agree on people who are in severe state, but those ''vulnerable'' can benefit from Sutra level approach and practice. Focused on developing virtues and right view, not long sitting sessions. Emptiness, if teached properly (not in nihilistic sense), will help to disengage with persisting mental states.
Finding vulnerabilities and traumas is a big trend in modern psychology. It may be more about creating vision of a problem to solve and provide "help" for a good price. Don't take me wrong, I don't suggest on denying issues, but excessive focus on a problem (in some cases - imagining a problem) or approaching it from wrong angle can make it bigger than it is.
@@MantrinDharmananda I agree 100%. Sutra training will be very helpful for people with vulnerabilities. Especially since they - most of the time - have family members with more servere problems. It will help them to deal with all of that suffering in a practical way. I was just talking about esoteric practices.
I also agree on the potential harm of focusing almost exclusively on vulnerabilities and problems. Fortunately newer theories and therapies are a lot of times more focused on processing trauma by seeing and integrating both, the "wound" and the "inherent positive potential", instead of just "exploring "trauma again and again. A lot of time the progression is: Accepting that there was trauma - adopting the identiy of a survivor - letting go of the identity as survivor. It is a quite natural progression. Staying stuck in the narrative of the trauma often tends only to solidify it. 😬
Agree, the interviewees lack of meditative experience and realisations, and what seems to be her clear need for sleep/energy/rest, was obvious throughout the interview. Combined with her lack of confidentiality and respect for her clients I would say would only further traumatise people she 'treats'. Would not trust such a 'medical therapist' at all as they may lead to more trauma and misunderstanding if people are genuinely mentally unwell.
She is not an experienced meditator
psychotic people first need to develop healthy ego (through psychotherapy - can use mindfulness related practice to achieve developement of healthy ego) and then only start Buddhist proper shamatha (calm/concentration) meditation followed by vipassana (analysis of the reality of oneself and existence - dependent origination and then egolessness / emptiness / awakening/selflessness. i think the problem with lot of Westerners trying to put all these different concepts and methods of contemplative practices together without graduated systematic path as its done in eastern traditions is the reason for the problems (or you called adverse effects) for the one who introduces and the client/student.
What about the mentioned case of the Asian child monk driven to psychosis in the monastery?
@@PeterKoperdan above same applies to this child.
@@mayatheillusion55 Putting the blame on the victim. Nice attitude 👍
A Dzogchen teacher explained that you need a stable ego structure to do these practices.
Thank you both! If the Teacher, The Practice and The Community are Causing suffering it's time to walk away.
The Buddha (walked away from Self Starvation), Jesus (walked away from Judaism), Abraham (decided not to kill Issac his first born as god demanded) ect. all walked away from their previous ways.
They then found a new way to practice because the old way was no longer helpful.
Don't worry, samatha and ngöndro can lead to very advanced levels of meditation... 🎉
This is a good interview and she has a valuable perspective to offer. Thanks.
'When we start to feel above other people' @51.41 when we think they have mental illness but we don't ?
Kinda makes ya wonder about the ideology behind the phrase “mental health”. It’s a powerful phrase, as it instantly and insistently equates a “good” mind with a hygienic/healthy mind. Just seems kinda transparent to me, that sort of propagandistic phrase would be a really great tool for controlling a whole bunch of people without a ton of physical force. 🤔
@@baizhanghuaihai2298 A very useful tool for those with the worst type of mental illness: The ones who desire to rule over others.
@@vthomas375 Hear, hear!✊
People with psychological disorders are excluded from many "mindfulness" retreats UNLESS they get an ok from their doctor. This takes the responsibility off the meditation organisation. These organisations are not hospitals and therefore do not have the resources to deal with psychotic episodes It can seem like they're being stigmatised but episodes have frequently occurred in the past which have been detrimental to the 'patient' as well as traumatic to other meditators on these retreats. The organisations also have to protect themselves from litigation. This is wisdom. Litigation is one of the world's favorite sports, especially in the US. Some people with psych problems are at their wits end and hear that such and such a meditation retreat is good for the mind. They then find out that mental health problems can cause them to be excluded. This desperation of "the last chance" then leads to these people lying on their application form when the question is-" Do you have any psychological illnesses". Simple "yes/no" answer. "Yes" may get me excluded, "No" gets me in... These forms are to be filled out in good faith and trust as no further interviews are usually held. It can be a "Catch 22" situation. It is not about stigmatising people with mental health problems by these meditation organisations, it is all about "Duty of Care" to all and sundry.
People with mental health issues (serious ones, severe) should not sign up for retreats. Unless it was specifically for relaxation.
Psychiatry and clinical psychology have value as therapeutic modalities, but they are also beholden to ideological regimes, like any other fields of discipline, and have a history of some very harmful practices, to put it mildly. Normative behavior as a benchmark standard is already somewhat fraught, as humans show such enormous diversity in most aspects of culture and individual behavior. Perennialism/universalism/foundationalism as an aspect of any ideology is often inherently self-contradictory, as both Nagarjuna and Derrida told us.
I agree with the genreal statement, but have you actually witnessed people suffering from a psychotic breakdown? I mean she is working with clinical patients, not with people dealing with everyday neurosis. Those patiens suffer from severe anxiety, fear and loss of reality. I don't think that Nagarjuna would have advised not to help people who are severly suffering. Yes, there is ideology and lots problems in classification and institution but the suffering is real. Psychiatrasist like Dr. Van Damme, who are willing and able to look beyond their traning are of an immense value and are a blessing for those people who are struggeling, often pushed to the fringes of social life and sedated instead of helped.
@@AD-rz7sg You make it sound like I was criticizing her…I was not. I said psychiatry is helpful, with caveats, and I did not say that Nagarjuna (or Derrida) said to ignore suffering or not help others. I have witnessed many people experiencing psychotic breaks, both in public since I live in a large American city with an huge homeless population and I take the bus and walk everywhere, and also I have had several friends over the years suffer psychotic breaks. So yes, I’ve seen it close and personal. I don’t understand your comment, you say you agreed then you go implying I expressed opinions which I did not and accused me of knowing nothing about psychosis…what is your angle? Nobody needs to defend Van Damme, as I was not critiquing or attacking her in the least. Chill out person.
@@baizhanghuaihai2298 As I said, I totally agree with you statement on normativity and powerdynamic etc.. I didn't get the impression that you were critizizing her but I might have gotten your statement about Nagrajuna wrong. Maybe based on the introductionof Derrida in the mix. I thougt that you alluded at the fact, that all categories can somehow be deconstructed and are therefor irrelevant. Clinicial diagnosis comes with a lot of problems but It has its merits as far as it is able to help somebody. Its a dance on the razors edge. But as I said - I seem to have gotten you wrong.
My question about having witnessed people with psychotic breakdowns was not personally aimed at you, but intended more generally, since a lot of peopel in the comment section - and everyday life - seem to not get the severity of what the patients Dr. Van Damme is talking about are going throug. (I'm no native speaker) I have, like you, had some friends that sufferd from psychotic breakdown and were never really able to get the chance at a "normal" life. I think your statement about homelessness aims at an important point, since it underlines how much people with these problem are pushed to the fringes of society. Thats why i just wanted to underline how precious it is that somebody within this field - which is heavy with ideology, disillusion and the imperative to sedate people - is looking beyond the standard training. You don't find many people like this.
So what I have answered might have been more influences by the general impresson of the statements I have read in the comments then just on what you have written. I'm sorry if I offended you - this wasn't my intention 🙏
teachers would be like: aaa she is saying that we need to push students even more, aaa
I am highly disturbed by the fact that a therapist would thrust a Buddhist spiritual practice like meditation onto her vulnerable patient, particularly one who has told her she is a Christian. Highly unethical and spiritually dangerous.
Why? There is meditation in the Christian tradition too and the patient explicitly appreciated its positive effects on her life. Or do you propose you know better than the patient herself?
Get out of your narrow minded view of the world and religion
Dhamma is good in the beginning the middle and the end. This was not said about meditation for a reason.
You guys need to practice conciseness, less is more. Move more quickly to the meat of the thing.
We had more possession experiences in First episode clients who meditated.
Too much anything must be bad, on a common sense level. If you are unfit, and try to run a marathon, you will break down half way. On scientific note, not enough studies are available on meditation, and the relationships between personality types and meditation ought to be studied more. My impression with the doctor from Belgium is she's not too informed on meditative practices on a personal level as she admits. She's looking at it from Western medical perspective. This is useful, but also one sided.
They will be crazy with or without meditation. Don't blame it on the meditation.
Yes this is true!
Meditation can trigger it much sooner for some people. It isn't a safe tool for some people.
Agree, the gross generalisations about meditation here from someone who is clearly not an accomplished practitioner of meditation, or with realisation of emptiness is worrying and whose advice should be taken lightly.
Finally the BS of meditation has been revealed ...she is correct very 🐌 slowly and small amounts
I despise all these down talking monks and so called mediation experts...long bizzare retreats where sleep depravation is ok!? Magical explanations of special powers ..Crap..I have 20 years of Buddhist practice experience and I have met many bizarre arrogant teachers who were losers in life and now walk around in robes like a gods ...reading books than verbatim repeating them as if they were there own experience .Time to unveil this nonsense like all cults.Good job Doctor Van.!
Well, there’s an interesting “take” to apply causality..and circles of incohérence from Guru Viking. This is embarrassing.
El movimiento de sus ojos indican que es un ser perturbado. Claro, siendo siquiatra! Necesita entrar en el silencio de la meditación verdadera. No entendió nunca.
Siiii. Parece que esta muy estresada y disconectada ella:(
It is worrying and disappointing to hear a 'medical therapist' speak so openly and publicly about their clients in such obviously identifiable (and at times rather derogatory and dismissive) ways. Whatever happened to client confidentiality and respect? In any case, one cannot say that everyone needs the same amount of sleep of 8 hours per day anyway. In fact, one of the major benefits of meditation and siddhi realisations is the lack of a need for sleep and having lots of energy. In long retreats, meditators sleep upright in order to break through this supposed 'human construct' necessary for sleep, I personally think she should stick to what she has directly experienced herself rather than make derogatory and gross accusations about a person's mental health based on her limited and 'faulty' perception of meditation and its benefits/effects. Is she an experienced and accomplished meditator? From the way she presents herself and her views in this interview, the answer seems to be a clear 'no'.
Meditation is what you do once you have mastered virtue. Meditation is what you do at the END of training. Not at the beginning. You westerners have got it backwards. It’s like a Christian getting baptized after the funeral.
Find the middle way. I'm Buddhist...so for me, imagining that I am a God certainly would not align with my practice....take a look at body based practices. This practice helped me overcome PTSD, 25 years ago....but this is not a practice to be taken lightly....it's not a weight-loss program...it's a 5,0000-10,0000 year old practice...you can't go home again.
Too much repetition along with some good insights...
I wonder if advanced meditation can help with monotonous speech patterns ;)
Can you speak French so good as she speaks English?
I think they are talking about the man...
the matrix is real