How To Balance Your Pistons And Connecting Rods [
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
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Where should you remove material from? Are V configuration engines treated differently to flat 4’s? Should you balance your piston rings? Removing material from your conrods and pistons is a common task when balancing your internal components, let's learn how it’s done.
In this [TECH TALK] we’re going to dive into all the frequently asked questions above along with discussing where and how to remove material from your pistons and connecting rods, how removing as little material as possible is always your main goal, the difference between how much material will physically be removed from a piston vs a conrod and also how accurate you can be when undertaking this task.
Thinking about balancing your crank at home as well? It is our advice that it is more economic to get a machinist to do this for you given the equipment and skillset required, but as we show that doesn’t mean there are not other aspects you can take care of yourself with a minimal investment in tooling that includes scales, a die grinder, conrod balancing fixture, a linisher (aka belt sander) and burrs. Why an expensive scientific grade set of scales is not required is also explained with the importance of repeat results over specific weight accuracy covered.
0:00 - What Do You Balance And Why?
0:40 - Can YOU Do It All At Home?
0:59 - What CAN You Do?
1:38 - Your Engine Specifics
2:59 - Do This Before Your Machinist Visit
3:18 - Wrist Pins, Ring Packs, Wire Locks, Pistons
3:45 - Balancing Ring Packs and Wire Locks
4:09 - Equipment
4:12 - Scales
5:07 - Die Grinder And Burrs
6:08 - Connecting Rod Balancing Fixture
7:38 - Linisher / Belt Sander
8:15 - [Piston Balancing]
14:12 - Tolerances. How Tight Is Too Tight?
15:15 - Where To Remove Material From?
16:45 - GOLDEN RULE
17:35 - Where To Stay Away From and Why
18:05 - Main Point Takeaway - Piston Balancing
18:36 - [Connecting Rod Balancing]
19:02 - Material Removal Big End
20:24 - GOLDEN RULE
20:40 - Material Density
21:08 - Material Removal Small End
22:26 - Cheap Scales 101 - What To Check For
24:10 - Learn More
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#highperformanceacademy #learntotune #enginebalancing #condrodbalacing #pistonbalancing #blueprinting #enginebuilding101 - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Great video but as an engine machinist you missed a few points. First you need fit/file your piston rings prior to weighing them . If you file them later in the build all your work is for nothing because you had an inaccurate weight to set your total Bob weight. Some rings require lots of filling to achieve the proper gap especially with a turbo/ supercharger /nitrous.
Second you stated not to grind on the bottom portion of connecting rod. With the rod shown in the video that is somewhat of a true statement. But lots of connecting rods especially stock style rods had a rectangular or square pad at the bottom and it is referred to as the balance pad and that is where material is removed for balancing.
Another somewhat common mistake is assuming that the bearings you purchased are correct . Assembling the engine with different bearings to achieve proper oil clearance will also change the Bob weight. Also the the connecting rod side clearance needs to be checked prior to balancing, in case material needs to be removed from the side of rod to adjust the clearance which will alter the weight of the big end of the rod. The wrist pin bushing clearance needs to also be inspected prior to balancing to assure the bushing don't need honed which would alter the weight of the small end of the rod.
An engine really needs to assembled once prior to assemble to rule out the need for any machining operations after balancing. Prior assembly is needed to properly adjust the deck height rather than relying on somewhat fictitious numbers and math. Connecting rod clearance with the block and cam in a stroker engine also needs to be checked prior to balancing .
Question: Can you balance the crankshaft without the bob weight to ensure it has been correctly balanced from the factory? I would think this would be the best way to go… or not? Thanks!
@@trevcessna1723 yes, you weigh the factory components and use those bob weights
Best content on the subject I have seen, subbed!!
Best video on balancing. I'm 69 years old retired pilot and have been working on cars since I turned 16. I have never seen or been given a lesson that made more scene. Thank you
These videos are great for us that live in more secluded and rural areas, where adding performance to our cars is a matter of doing it ourselves or paying huge sums of money, that me and many other don't have, to ship parts long distances, to get the same job done.
At least for the aluminum piston If you use a good quality wood carving knife over a bowl on the scale. You can get a real time measure of what has been removed as you remove it.
You just need to let the shavings fall into the bowl. A paper plate works well to.
Another fantastic video. Thank you for sharing.
Great information!!
As a machinist building medical molds and dealing with extremely tight tolerances. Everything that you said and did made perfect sense. Thanks for doing the video, it helped a lot.
Fantastic Video I am in the process of assembling a 1935 Derby Bentley 4 1/4 inline 6 & I will be doing exactly that! Thank You!!
Thanks for the great content!
What engine are you going to balance the pistons and rods on for the first time? - Taz.
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0:00 - What Do You Balance And Why?
0:40 - Can YOU Do It All At Home?
0:59 - What CAN You Do?
1:38 - Your Engine Specifics
2:59 - Do This Before Your Machinist Visit
3:18 - Wrist Pins, Ring Packs, Wire Locks, Pistons
3:45 - Balancing Ring Packs and Wire Locks
4:09 - Equipment
4:12 - Scales
5:07 - Die Grinder And Burrs
6:08 - Connecting Rod Balancing Fixture
7:38 - Linisher / Belt Sander
8:15 - [Piston Balancing]
14:12 - Tolerances. How Tight Is Too Tight?
15:15 - Where To Remove Material From?
16:45 - GOLDEN RULE
17:35 - Where To Stay Away From and Why
18:05 - Main Point Takeaway - Piston Balancing
18:36 - [Connecting Rod Balancing]
19:02 - Material Removal Big End
20:24 - GOLDEN RULE
20:40 - Material Density
21:08 - Material Removal Small End
22:26 - Cheap Scales 101 - What To Check For
24:10 - Learn More
So nerdy! i love it!
Perfect! That's the goal haha
Hope you enjoying whatever projects you have on the go or have planned 🤘 - Taz.
Thanks!
Fluffy unicorns, at last I’m not the only one that uses these units.
Far out I love your content! Smart, articulate and accurate info. Would you take on a 40 year old work experience kid😄??
Love your videos
Please do more cosworth yb content
Great video, good to see not much has changed in 45 years of balancing ricpro and rotating masses. One question for you though, and since you and I both like to think in terms of high RPM, after balancing the connecting rods, do you recommend shot peening the beam and pin end where you removed material? Or have you found this to be unnecessary?
I'm assuming you need to gap the rings before you proceed with this.
Imagine that, ‘yea I gota shave off 2.5 fluffy unicorns off my rods....’ confused face ensues.
I need Fluffy Unicorn scale :)
🤣🤣🤣🤣😂
Link to the scales?
You really explained that well. Thanks
perfect timing, I'm sitting here with all my new short block internals and a nice digital scale that goes to a tenth of a gram. Have my dremel grinder and a nice flat file...just need a connecting rod weighing jig. Thanks Andre.
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@Malachi Gus Instablaster ;)
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From what I've read about the gen2 3.5l ecoboost, the pistons are the only component that isn't forged, so I'm looking to replace them with aftermarket forged pistons. A manufacturer I spoke to says the assembly needs to be balanced as their pistons aren't drop in. If the assembly needs to be balanced, that means their pistons are lighter than stock and the balance of the rest of the assembly needs to be adjusted to accommodate the new pistons, correct?
These are great, but what with piston oil squirters, where a significant volume and mass of oil is on the piston?? Still disregard oil in calcs????
So if I wanted to remove 10g per piston (oversize), would you recommend weight being added to the crank?
What grit sanding belt do you recommend, where can I get that scale? Thanks
If you were to put everything together as a unit piston... connecting rod.. pin...retaining rings. . piston rings... connecting rods bolts.. bearings. And you match all 4 or 6 or 8 units in weight and say you only remove material of the bottom side of the connecting rod or rods if theres not a huge difference in weight. Will this be a problem. Rather then doing it step by step?
Fluffy unicorns are related to the powerful pound!
❤❤
Why wouldn't you also match the rod small end masses to the combined piston/pin/rings/retainers assembled mass? There might be a magic combination where the total reciprocating mass is within tolerance and no grinding is necessary.
You're free to check that and see when you're doing your build, but in our experience grouping things together will only see you take more material off less components rather than just a little bit off most - Taz.
hi great video very useful indeed...would weighing the piston with rings , gudgeon pin etc as a whole work? meaning the whole mass is weighed?
Yes, but be careful to match lightest to heaviest with pins to avoid taking more material off the pistons that you otherwise might have to. Heaviest to heaviest vs lightest to lightest is a bigger weight gap to cover if that makes sense - Taz.
@@hpa101 i suppose you could put heaviess pin with lightset piston ....intreguing ...thanks
Yup, that's exactly what I'm trying to say, or rather Andre as he does talk about it somewhere if not in this video 😎 - Taz,
And the rings were already gapped before you weighed them?
This is why a ADHD person like me, needs a OCD machinist friend that works for beer.
shouldnt you gap the ring packs before you weigh them?
The weight of the rings is really negligible for our application, but you could go down that path if you want to with yours for sure! We've never heard of an engine having issues from being 'over balanced' - Taz.
www.hpacademy.com/q-and-a/should-i-balance-my-pistons-with-the-rings-installed/
Andre Simon World Tour 2021
That's the first time I've ever heard them called gudgeon pins.
There are usually 2 or 3 names for the same thing in English just to keep us all guessing 😂 - Taz.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudgeon_pin
Instructions unclear balanced oil on scale
Sorry about the type-o mistake.
do you measure ring packs after gapping them, or it doesnt matter as all gaps (should) be the same
I'm not quite sure I understand your questions sorry. You measure your gaps and adjust as required, and then do confirm they are correct as part of that process.
Trust but verify.
Is that what you meant by your question? - Taz.
@@hpa101 sorry meant measure the "weight" after ring gapping? Missed one vital word, lol.
@@SuperTambo69 it depends on what level of accuracy you're working to. What we show with piston and rod balancing is already a bit over and beyond what most do (but since you have the gear out why not spend just a few mins doing it is the logic), but Andre considers the piston ring weights in the grand scheme of things to be negligible personally.
With the above in mind, you can do what you prefer, you're not right or wrong to do things either way, just a matter of your preference - Taz.
I came here from a land rover engine build, where 1.5g between rods is considered significantly better than factory 😅
It won't heppen overnoight, but it wool heppen
😂😂
😂😂
Can i have this vidio with indonesian subtittle ? 🥺
Dumb question does this apply to boxer engines?
Yes
Great video but more talk²
I didn't do this when I built my engine 🥺
Did you buy good quality components or used OEM
@@Realtime1501 Had a racing team build my bottom end. 🤣 I'm just trolling.
@@Questchaun Haas F1 doesn't count tho
For an inline 4, can we simplify things by regarding each pair of rods, pistons and pins, as a single unit? That is, cylinder 1 and 4 are one pair, and 2 and 3 are the other. Why do all 4 sets of components need to be individually balanced?
Consider this scenario. Group the components into sets, ordered from lightest to heaviest. Now distribute these sets 1, 2, 4, 3 across cylinders 1 through 4. Now just take the weight required off cylinder 3 parts to make the combined weight of sets 2 and 4 the same as 1 plus 3. Even simpler (but slightly less accurate) - just distribute the ordered sets in cylinder order - 1, 2, 3, 4. The combined weight of 1 and 4 might be close enough to that of 2 and 3 to make any grinding unnecessary. You could call this Passive Balancing.
So this is not an acceptable procedure for a V8?
He says it was but you cant balance the crank until after this has been done
@@Craig_whyte someone listens during class time...Thumbs up
That word, "misinformation"...
drilling the bottom of the piston sounds incredibly dull move
@Jacob, yet it isn't when done correctly 🤓 You'll find techniques like this done in all those world record holding drag car engines etc if you even have the chance to work on them - Taz.
People say the imperial measuring system is difficult. Imagine having to measure in fluffy unicorns.
Are you serious?
There’s bound to be a conversion you could use - Andre
@@hpa101 hahahah sure, thanks Andre for providing us with free knowledge!
I really appreciate it
Try to locate such a thing first...
@@TheNickelfire when you stop looking for one that is when you'll find it, usually somewhere you already looked twice previously - #tazlifetips
lol half a gram. my stock rods and pistons, worst one was 3g out from the rest
Mines were 7 grams lol
@@PINCHOALAE now thats a party!
So, we have to assume suppliers are shite at packaging balanced components? 😅
Trust, but verify 😉
Simonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
fluffy uncirnorrrrrrsssssssssssssssssss yyyyeaahhhhawwwwwwwwwwwww
I don't know why I paid for this, pretty much everything is now on youtube... ffs
Sorry you feel that way Steve, which course/s do you have? I can show you what is online free from them compared to the huge amount of topics that are not as while we do like to share knowledge to help people out and also promote HPA, we also don't want to devalue your course and webinar/forum access either - Taz.
FWIW I found the concentric twist video after looking at LS wiring harness videos, and immediately signed up. Working in my shop to afford couple of the classes. This is exactly the next step forward that I've been looking for.
If you're trying to balance an engine better than 1/4 ounce inch you are wasting time and money, there are to many other variables such as oil under the pistons on the upstoke verse oil trapped under the piston on the down stroke, I've been Balancing engines since the mid 70s, and if your engines operate above 7000rpm you should consider putting a 3% over balance on the reciprocating weight to deal with rod stretch on steel rods of around .035" and Aluminum rods at .050" ...
Too many words
Maybe you would find a book with photos more suitable.
We find words to be an excellent means of communication but we accept they’re not for everyone 💁🏻♂️ - Andre
@@hpa101 many thanks for the words, clearly from a well informed source
This is completely misguiding !!! Sorry to put you on blast, but this will have people messing their engines up. This by itself cannot be done for any engine. At he end of the video, he mentions the Bob weight, reciprocal mass, etc.. except they are extremely important. Which affect the TOTAL balance of the COMPLETE rotating assembly. You cannot just make all your pistons & rods the same equal weight & have a balanced engine. Those big things hanging on the crankshaft, or the counter weights are all specifically balanced accordingly to specific piston & rod assembly, & a good balance should include any hardware also, such as bolts, wrist pins, etc. Yes ideally, if you were a machine shop, you would want to do this & make each piston & rod assembly equal, not to mention removing any castings, burrs, etc help with windage, oil deflection & so on, but after all of this, these piston & rod assemblies would be balanced along with the crankshaft. Hence Bob weight, reciprocating mass. In this balancing, either weight will then be removed or added to the crankshaft. Now some engines make up balance in what's called an external balanced rotating assembly, which include the harmonic balancer & the flywheel /flexplate, which will have added counterweight in one or both. While this works fine, internal balance rotating assemblies are ideal, especially in racing engines, but this is where the harmonic balancer & flywheel /flexplate have a "neutral" or "zero" balance .
You can not just break out your dremel, belt sander, & scale, in your garage & "balance" your engine!!! There are very special machines, computers, etc that do this. Not to mention a skilled technician. I have over 20 years experience building high performance engines & high end fabrications, so I can build anything, but I don't have the special equipment to machine, to balance, etc, & so even I take my stuff to a specialist who has the proper equipment & know how to do these things correctly.
Don't do this at home kids!
A good point David. To be fair, he does place it in context in the first 3 minutes of the video.
I can see what you mean, though, and it is a problem with semantics and clarity regarding the frame of reference. "Balancing" of the rotating assembly is done at the machine shop by adjusting the relative masses of the crankshaft and pistons, mainly by modification of parts of the crankshaft for internally balanced engines, whereas what is happening here is actually ensuring close uniformity of the mass of the pistons and rods with reference to each other and without reference to the crank. You could call it "balancing" one piston with respect to another, but it is important not to confuse that with "balancing" a rotating assembly.
I agree that this is not a balanced rotating assembly so the viewer shouldn't infer that. but as stated above, the crank is balanced by an automotive machine shop. This is why the title of this video says "How to balance pistons and connecting rods"
Aaaaand someone wasn't paying attention during the first three minutes of class....
Paying attention? Ill say it again. This is misleading, because too many will misunderstand. The very brief statements about needing the complete rotating assembly balanced, etc etc, but then making a complete video doing this can easily be lost in translation. Besides this being absolutely pointless in the first place. Except for maybe to make a video to fill a time slot.
In itself, what is the point of showing a novice how to make each rod and piston assembly the same weight, when they still have to take these piston/rod assemblies along with the crankshaft, etc etc to a professional machinist only to have it all balanced together?
Especially since your really not going to save much, if any money, because your still going to pay for a full balance. Any real machinist is going to go over everything, whether another shop "worked on" it, &/ or definitely after you say you did some of the work already.
Not to mention that doing something like this can actually be counterproductive, & even possibly weakening or ruining the parts. Especially in the hands of a novice.
What grit, or grits to use? When you you switch grits? How much time & pressure? Should there being a cutting oil? How much time to remove how much weight? Especially when tge weight is down to fractions. What happens if you accidentally remove too much from 1 assembly after doing a few? Do you start over removing more?
Do you know that leaving grooves, even those you don't see can actually affect oil flow & reflection? May sound ridiculous but it isn't.
Do you also know, that just making each rod & piston assembly the same weight isn't necessarily balanced? That there is a careful process of removing & or adding weight around the whole thing so there is even side to side front to back weight dispersion. This is to help having "lop Sided" pistons, or side loading or Cylinder wall loading because one side of the piston weighs more than the other. Which is especially bad when used large stroke, bore or high RPM engines.
Another thing is that even tho this is mentioned, & doing it as he said can work, well if all the parts are really closely weigh the same as each other, but in fact these weights should being taken with the wrist pins, clips, bolts & bearings being assigned to a specific piston/rod assembly . Remember that even a little weight difference here & a little there can can add up & throw things off.
Listen im not trying to just be a jerk, im actually spending all this time on this, time i really don't have, but putting here because i feel it's important for others to truly understand. I remember when I started out some 20 plus years ago, & the struggles i went thru in getting the correct information. And just like i see now, all too many countless videos, forums, etc with misinformation, to outright real bad & even dangerous information. Many times from so called professionals too. The countless wasted hours, years & money on bad info sucks.
.So i dont want the men & women coming up in this world go thru this.
Im not completely knocking this guy or his video. But i stand by this not being a DIY video, & should be left to actual professionals. Honestly how many fast & furious millennials are going to try this to go along with that Ebay turbo kit, even tho they can barely do brakes, but all because they seen a how to video that makes it look considerably easy. Remember everything seems easy when 19 years old.
So this could be a "this is how i......" type video instead of a "how to........" video. And should make clear that none of this should be attempted at home, & not by novices.
@@corvettefever360 Hey there bud. I'm gonna say if they arnt smart enough to hear the entire section of the video referring to the Bob weight and the crank being balanced on a machine. Then maybe they arnt smart enough to be inside of an engine anyways.