Pure equine abuse! We don’t put in the work building trust with our horses…and resort to torture devices. And we’re supposed to be the more intelligent species. A huge pet peeve of my mine! Thank you for demonstrating just how bad these are for our horses.
I must agree with you on the pain a mechanical hackamore puts on the horses face. Numbers don't lie. If you can ride in one of these you could surely ride in a halter. No bit and no pain needed. Plus your horse will be so happy to not have to ride in pain any more!!!!
So important to show this! There are torture instruments for horses that should be forbidden. In the end it comes all down to the people who own horses. Even with bitless riding, even with a halter or a neckring you can torture if you want to. Thanks for showing things like this. It should be shown in every stable. Awareness is the key.
Two reactions - firstly, the absolute barbarism of these force-multiplying devices. Secondly, what a clever set-up to show how they work and what they cause! Your videos truly are educational. We understand how heinous it is to control another human through fear and pain. It should be no different for horses. May all those devices be taken off the market forever.
I'm so glad that you're putting this information out. My mother always told me that mechanical hackamores were abusive and I worked in a stable. My boss was a Quarterhorse man that had a lot of experience training, breeding and showing Quarterhorses also told me how abusive they were. I have always hated mechanical hackamores. I have seen both sides of horse's heads bleeding from getting pinched by a mechanical hackamore.
Love the experiment and I totally agree with you..those devices need to be removed from the market!! If people would just take the time to observe and learn horse behavior there would be no need for bits all together!
Thank you for this video and the educational opportunities. I was thinking just the other day that I wanted to ask for more information on bridles and especially bits. Since watching your channel, my attention has been drawn to the things we've put on horses faces. I never thought about it much before. But now? I see bits all over. Other channels, movies, historical photos. I tried to imagine how it would feel, to have a piece of metal over my tongue for possibly hours. How do horses swallow? Or do they just ..drool? Wouldn't that dehydrate them? And how painful! And now, here is this "hackamore" (a word I've heard but totally ignorant as to it's mechanics), and it's designed to squeeze their nose and jaw? Is this why there are so many movies and video's with the horses tossing their head back? Some desperate attempt to release the pressure? Who thinks of these things?? Good grief, I am just sickened at the thought. These beautiful, sensitive, intelligent creatures at the mercy of us. Man's best friends are dogs and horses huh. If that's how we treat a friend....well. Sorry for being dramatic but I really want to just swear right now. Thank you again for opening my eyes. I've been totally ignorant until watching your channel. Which is no excuse is it? I won't hesitate to carry your teachings forward at any opportunity now.
Nicely done! I never liked them, but that’s my personal opinion. A lot of people in the states seem to use them when they transition from a bit to bitless. This is a great display showing that just because there’s not pain IN the mouth, there is pain being caused elsewhere and to choose your transitioning piece of equipment wisely. Love the “Patent Pending” sign too! 😁
I hate that when we say "bitless" this is what most people think of, when it shouldn't even be considered bitless in the first place. There is a "bit" - the leverage. Also the second one you've shown, I've mostly seen used by jumpers, who, despite the harsh bits, still seem to struggle to control their horse so they use that hackamore, and pulling so hard on it that it makes me sick.
This kind of control is used in which kind of activity? Is it used when the horse is pulling a heavy weight? Why use such a crushing force? Who would think they need it? It seems extreme. Does it break the horses jaw? Does it cut off their tongue. It seems so bizaar. Ouch!
Mostly competitive worlds and it's a painful way to control a horse mostly to stop as the concern for the rider is that they won't be able to make the horse stop or backup.
Conversion in kg: 19 lbs = 8,6183 kgs direct rein force 46 lbs = 20,8652 kgs crush force Approximately 10 kgs of pressure each on the noseband and the chin strap. I don’t understand how is a horse supposed to understand the signals of this bridle? Pressure on the nasal bone would mean to lower the head, but then there is the counter pressure on the chin strap which prevents the horse to lower its head? It must be like a trap so I imagine it creates panic and a head shy horse in the long run. Can it break the nasal bone when pulled too much? Only my modest observations, I’m not a horse owner.
Great job demonstrating what a hackamore does. I think if you are training a horse in a rope halter, you should be able to ride in a rope halter. Here is a bigger question, why do we think horses should be ridden? I bet they would be happier to go for a walk with you.😉
The problem is that horses have always been used for work (and wars) since they were domesticated. Now they no longer work in many countries, the traditions are transmitted from generation to generation to use them for sport, pleasure, fame and revenue (the business deriving from the horse's world is thriving)
@@martineinfrance, I agree. If we could transform sports into something like dog sports where the person runs next to the dogs for them to go threw tunnels and over bridges...etc. We could do that with horses. If you want to barrel run horses, have the horse do the barrels at liberty. That would make it more challenging and more entertaining. I bet the horse would have fun, also.😄
@@leadfootmama absolutely but people want to ride them for various motivations, closer contact with the horse, speed, jumping, hunting, outdoor sports.. . And many other motivations outside financial interest, racing or competition. During my horse years, I personally much preferred to be with them, care for them groom them, feed them, clean their stalls.. And walk them like dogs, rather than be on their back!
@@martineinfrance, I believe that is why there is so much horse abuse in the world. Financial interest, racing, or competition. I love spending my time with my horses. Do I want to ride them? Sure. But I don't have to, to find joy with them.
I really do not understand the "soft hands" explanation. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but if you are trying to overpower a horse by force either directly or by mechanical means, then you need to look at how you are training/connecting with that animal. My dad and grandfathers were big men with hands like bear paws but they were never anything but gentle with animals. What they did was build trust while horse and man trained each other.
Thank you so much for showing this, I always wondered how these bits worked and the amount of *pressure/pain* that is involved when using them. I like to try and keep things natural when riding my horse, and very often take her out bareback and in her headcollar with 2 lead ropes when we are just going over to the river bank to graze and wander around a bit. However on the roads and hacking through town where there are mostly very nice respectable drivers, you do get the odd idiot on their huge trucks come thundering past, and I feel happier with a bridle on her. At the moment I use a cross under the cheeks/chin bitless, and wonder what your opinions are on those? It's fitted correctly, regarding position on nose etc, and is never yanked on. Thanks, keep up the awesome videos, and more shots of Lena!!!! Love me some Lena
I think you are referring to the bitless bridles where if you pull on the left rein it attaches to the right side of the face? Being a cross under? I'm not sure. If that's the case, I don't recommend them, it's more clear and better to just pull on the side of the face where you want them to go, otherwise you end up pulling in a twisting fashion where the right side of the face would tip toward the ground and pull the jaw to the left kind of thing.
Wow! Excellent demonstration. I am curious what results you would get if you use the halters you use. I do know some riders who use this information to use a bit - they are aware what a hackimore does to a horse's face.
Do you have any opinion on other types of hackamores? I've seen "flower" hackamores which would still twist and provide a slight degree of "crushing pressure," but certainly not anything like the long shanked mechanical ones. To go along with that, I believe you typically advocate for side pulls. Do you believe those are better because they don't provide the crushing pressure? Thanks!
It's a mechanical hackamore and completely unacceptable in my opinion. Side pulls are a 1:1 pressure base and do not provide mechanical advantage like the leverage based mechanical hackamores. Working with a horse should never be about resorting to leverage. If you have to even reach down to their face to make something happen, you and your horse are still stuck in kindergarten. Which is fine to be at for a bit, but a graduation needs to happen where we all stop pulling on horse's faces.
Very instructif indeed ! And important because "riding bitless" doesn't mean riding painless !!! Anything bitless is not good for your horse, consider this ! Thanks for this experiment Graeme 👍
Nasty instrument of pain. This was a good demonstration of how much force can be applied to the horse's face. It would be possible to break their nose if it's too low. I hope one day the majority of riders realize that they don't need these devices if they have patience and take the time to teach the horse their signals. Horses are like big dogs.
Not a name I've ever heard of hackamore. Just the name sounds painful. If you say it causes pain, that's enough for me to want it banned. Glad you are teaching on these torture devices. Maybe there are horse owners who don't know or is it, they don't care. Is there ever a time or necessity to use a bit? Heard and seen people that don't blink an eye to use one. I don't know enough to debate. I just ask why the bit? Then of course, I can hear the birds chirping...
Thank you for that video, I have always know how these work and have been using on for the last few rides on my older mare... I am very experienced and only use very small amounts of pressure and release strait away... It can be bad in the wrong hands but hey, I have one mare who's mouth has severe damage from a snaffle, then top that with nose bands that are so tight and I have witnessed professionals riding horses that are clearly not happy
I can see the idea behind it and possibly the reason they were used. If looked at historically it most likely helped in times of war when cavalry was still a thing and they had to use untrained riders and used these and others alike to force a horse to submit. That being said it's barbaric to force a horse - or any animal for that matter - to do anything. Especially in these modern times were we know a lot more about animal psychology and how things work. In general though I wager we won't find many if any regular watchers of your channel who'd seriously defend these kind of devices.
It's true, I'm preaching to the choir for sure, but now they have something to show people when they go and make a case for those not in the choir yet. That's my goal, to give people objective proof of the tools being used on horses, rather than it being subjective and having nothing to back up their thoughts on why something is "bad".
I absolutely agree. I guess hackamores are for people who use pain to control their horse(s) instead of doing the necessary groundwork, spending time with and bonding with their horse(s) like Graeme and many viewers on this channel do (that have horses or had at one time.)
The experiment is well thought out and done. Appreciate the data. Thank you. That said, there may be a time and place for a mechanical hackamore. Unlike many of the comments, that conclude that any use of the mechanical hackamore is abusive, I posit that there may be a time and place. The device is not abusive in itself, but rather, how it is applied to a specific horse. We're transitioning a 10 year old stallion (w/ a lot of pull) from the aggressive spade bit he arrived with and has known all his life. The goal is to one day ride him with just a halter, but that would be entirely unsafe at this time. For this horse, the mechanical hackamore seems a happy medium, as it provides a bit less discomfort for the horse, while still providing some level of control for the rider. Got to take the horse into account. And not all horses are the same. Just saying.
There is never a case to use such an abusive device. Use it if you will, but know that you are wielding a weapon against the horse and you will always be giving yourself that option, it shapes who you are and will be. Simple as that. If you can't ride with control without a weapon, then you're sacrificing moral integrity for ego. Just saying.
@@StableHorseTraining Thanks for your response. That said, we may have to agree to disagree on this one. From our experience, horses, like people, come in all sizes, shapes, and personalities. We'll continue to respond to this horse based on his unique life story and nature, and hope that one day we can transition him further to being ridden safely with just a light-harness. In the meantime, I won't take offense or be triggered by claims of "wielding weapons" or "sacrificing moral integrity for ego". Sometimes, it really is just about what works with a unique and special horse, and not the rider's ability. But I'll take your thoughts to mind. Thanks again. I have always enjoyed your channel and your effort to share your personal experience and philosophies.
I guess the question that might be very hard to answer is, "then why ride if you don't have control?". What causes a person to ride a horse that they feel they may need to crush the horse's jaw together at some point? What kind of person chooses that? Those are my questions, hence my resolution that "moral integrity" plays a role in decisions like that. So I guess, we are now agreeing that you do indeed need to use such a weapon then (by definition it is a weapon as it has an ability to inflict pain at an exponential level to force applied) as your moral standards say "no problem with this method as the horse has forced me to do it". It's a perspective thing and has absolutely nothing to do with "all shapes and sizes" unless of course you're referring to the human and their ability to solve problems with particular tools. Blaming the horse for inflicting pain upon it due to a human superficial need to ride is abhorrent. I don't know you, you don't know me. We're not friends or comrades or anything, we're complete strangers and I would never expect anybody to have any investment in what I say or do as I don't with them accordingly in this situation. My arguments are logical and factual. To not take offense or be triggered is perfectly normal and healthy and only frames my words implying I had meant to for you to feel the need to write such a thing. Not my intention. I didn't and still don't care what you do, that's how it works. My comments are for those that are open to higher standards and happen to read that there is a person who watches a video of how a tool puts a human in the mindset that they can crush a horse's mouth closed through minimal effort (or mistake). That person can be totally cool about it and how little I'll stand for such opinions here. You've come to write on the walls of my house for everybody to see, for me to either not respond or not delete your comment is irresponsible on my own part as I take what I do and teach seriously to hopefully make a change in the world of horses. Your mindset starts when you look at your box or wall of bits and actively choose one that can be utterly painful, that's a really low standard. I wish for the horse world to change and make higher and better decisions for the animals in their care that they force things on to. Either way, most change does not happen through direct contact such as this, it comes from the quiet in the background wondering who is right and how the argument is made to have the think critically about both sides. Your mind was made up the moment you started writing, I already knew that.
@@StableHorseTraining In regard to how I come to this conversation, you continue to draw conclusions and make assumptions that seem personal in nature. I hadn't gotten that aspect of your approach from your videos, but understand that you genuinely care greatly for horses, and by extension, I have to assume all sentient beings that exist. Please know that I have not "come to write on the walls of my house for everybody to see." I wrote in hopes that you would provide insight, and I appreciate that you have. As for the audience, it is one of the aspects of TH-cam that I do not focus on a great deal. That I am open to transparently sharing my thoughts with you is not based on the audience at large, but out of my respect for what I've seen your produce on your channel. Had I not had this respect for you, I would not have commented in any way. This is not a forum I routinely share my thoughts, for the very reasons of misinterpretation that seem to be at play here. Although it does lend itself to impulsive criticism, these public comment fields do not lend themselves to terribly critical dialogue. Nonetheless, what seems to be missed here is that the horse in question does like to have a rider, and does like to work with a rider. But it appears that in his past, well before I purchased him and brought him back to something less physically abused and unhealthy, he developed a very numb mouth and face, and has a lot of pull. He continues to require a lot of pressure from the bridle to cue. Absent the more powerful cues from the aggressive spade bit he had previously arrived with, he behaves in an unsafe manner. So, in hopes of moving him to a riding one day in only a halter, the less aggressive mechanical hackamore has been a step in the right direction. More aggressive than some, less than others, and a step in the right direction. He has a personality all of his own, and your responses continue to suggest that all horses are the same. And that I can simply set him to pasture until he gentles enough, if ever, to be a reliable riding partner; a role he genuinely enjoys. You see, this horse loves to go riding and working, he has responded well to the hackamore, and no longer requires the aggressive spade bit. He asks for the time with a rider atop, but simply seems to require the more aggressive cue that the mechanical hackamore can deliver, even in the gentlest of hands. Anyhow, I didn't send my first comments to provoke or argue, and so, I won't do that here. I just wonder if maybe, just maybe, there is something for you to learn from others on this topic also? Or is this channel simply a venue to affirm your own confirmation bias? I have appreciated thinking differently at times, a result I attribute to the time and consideration you have provided through your channel. Although I may have little, in comparison to offer, I do so in good faith. I don't believe either of us control the moral high-ground, but it appears that one of us may believe he does. So, know that my thoughts are now yours to do with as you will. All the best to you. Thanks again for your extraordinary effort with this channel.
Wow... ok, I see what kind of debater you are now. No problem, this is an easy one. I can say unequivocally that there is nothing I can learn from somebody that actively chooses to use leverage pain devices on horses due to their own "confirmation bias" that the horse needs it due to it's own behaviors. There is nothing I can learn from any of what you have written about how to treat a horse and why. I've heard these arguments over and over and over. This argument is everywhere for anybody that uses spade bits, spurs, whips, crops, tie downs, cross ties, chains, curb bits, leverage bits and mechanical hackamores. You're no different than any of them at all. You're not original nor special, you're the norm. It is ALWAYS the horse's fault that a human must use torture to "behave". Hopefully others can see here how the writer has stated it's the horse's fault it must have a leverage pain device on it's face that squeezes it's mouth shut through pain points on the fragile nose and jaw bones. The writer has made no visible effort to do everything possible to avoid this and made a valid argument around that. The main argument is that somebody else made the horse dull and numb in it's mouth. I can guarantee this horse does not smash it's face on walls, bars, doors, rocks, the ground and buckets. If it searches for bits of food and grass, every little hair on it's face feels what is going on. If a fly lands on it, it will carefully brush it's face on it's leg and not go looking for something metal to roughly rub the itch. The "numbness" is a lack of connection or care of the passenger on it's back. It just doesn't matter though. I don't believe I could convince you of anything. I see very clearly how you debate and you're an expert at reframing and distraction and I quite literally can't be bothered to debate with you further as I believe you are disingenuous, mostly to justify your actions, feel better about yourself and what you've done and choose to do. This isn't about you or me, you've made this as personal as I'll allow at this point and will not engage further unless you want a genuine conversation about what is best for the horse and what you're doing isn't. That's a fact, do with it what you will.
So bits are abusive, hackamores are abusive. What's not abusive now a days? I switched my five year old warmblood to a hackamore and her whole demeaner changed. She's so much happier and we have been advancing every time I ride her unlike when she was in a bit. The whole point of a hackamore is for horses like mine that don't like any type of bit AND don't need much woah. People need to educate themselves. It's not like I'm pulling on her nose the whole time I'm riding. These "torture devices" aren't abusive, they changed my horses life.
As they say, you can lead a horse to water... You're a hunter jumper, of course moving to something you think is less abusive is going to help you feel better about what you do to horses as it is. This video is about education and what you have completely ignored (likely not even watched) is that a mechanical hackamore is more abusive than a bit unless of course you were already using a leverage bit. You definitely shouldn't be preaching about people getting an education while refusing one yourself.
like nothing actually. Just nothing is required to go in a horse's mouth. People who really like bits are the only ones that just say "well, don't pull so hard and the damage will be less, and that's good in my books!".
Pure equine abuse! We don’t put in the work building trust with our horses…and resort to torture devices. And we’re supposed to be the more intelligent species. A huge pet peeve of my mine! Thank you for demonstrating just how bad these are for our horses.
I must agree with you on the pain a mechanical hackamore puts on the horses face. Numbers don't lie. If you can ride in one of these you could surely ride in a halter. No bit and no pain needed. Plus your horse will be so happy to not have to ride in pain any more!!!!
So important to show this! There are torture instruments for horses that should be forbidden.
In the end it comes all down to the people who own horses. Even with bitless riding, even with a halter or a neckring you can torture if you want to.
Thanks for showing things like this. It should be shown in every stable. Awareness is the key.
Two reactions - firstly, the absolute barbarism of these force-multiplying devices. Secondly, what a clever set-up to show how they work and what they cause! Your videos truly are educational. We understand how heinous it is to control another human through fear and pain. It should be no different for horses. May all those devices be taken off the market forever.
That took some engineering skills to set up. Very cool. Graphic proof of the cruel pressure hackamores can exert.
I'm so glad that you're putting this information out. My mother always told me that mechanical hackamores were abusive and I worked in a stable. My boss was a Quarterhorse man that had a lot of experience training, breeding and showing Quarterhorses also told me how abusive they were.
I have always hated mechanical hackamores. I have seen both sides of horse's heads bleeding from getting pinched by a mechanical hackamore.
Love the experiment and I totally agree with you..those devices need to be removed from the market!!
If people would just take the time to observe and learn horse behavior there would be no need for bits all together!
I am in awe of your many talents!
This demonstration should be used at riding schools. Just saying when you press here that it will hurt is not the same as actual numbers.
Thank you for this video and the educational opportunities. I was thinking just the other day that I wanted to ask for more information on bridles and especially bits. Since watching your channel, my attention has been drawn to the things we've put on horses faces. I never thought about it much before. But now? I see bits all over. Other channels, movies, historical photos. I tried to imagine how it would feel, to have a piece of metal over my tongue for possibly hours. How do horses swallow? Or do they just ..drool? Wouldn't that dehydrate them? And how painful! And now, here is this "hackamore" (a word I've heard but totally ignorant as to it's mechanics), and it's designed to squeeze their nose and jaw? Is this why there are so many movies and video's with the horses tossing their head back? Some desperate attempt to release the pressure? Who thinks of these things?? Good grief, I am just sickened at the thought. These beautiful, sensitive, intelligent creatures at the mercy of us. Man's best friends are dogs and horses huh. If that's how we treat a friend....well. Sorry for being dramatic but I really want to just swear right now. Thank you again for opening my eyes. I've been totally ignorant until watching your channel. Which is no excuse is it? I won't hesitate to carry your teachings forward at any opportunity now.
Nicely done! I never liked them, but that’s my personal opinion. A lot of people in the states seem to use them when they transition from a bit to bitless. This is a great display showing that just because there’s not pain IN the mouth, there is pain being caused elsewhere and to choose your transitioning piece of equipment wisely. Love the “Patent Pending” sign too! 😁
You're the first person who has noticed! I wrote that in at the last minute as a joke
I did laugh. 😄 your sense of humor came through. 😂
I hate that when we say "bitless" this is what most people think of, when it shouldn't even be considered bitless in the first place. There is a "bit" - the leverage. Also the second one you've shown, I've mostly seen used by jumpers, who, despite the harsh bits, still seem to struggle to control their horse so they use that hackamore, and pulling so hard on it that it makes me sick.
This kind of control is used in which kind of activity? Is it used when the horse is pulling a heavy weight? Why use such a crushing force? Who would think they need it? It seems extreme. Does it break the horses jaw? Does it cut off their tongue. It seems so bizaar. Ouch!
Mostly competitive worlds and it's a painful way to control a horse mostly to stop as the concern for the rider is that they won't be able to make the horse stop or backup.
Good job Graeme.
Thanks Ross!
Thank you for this clear demonstration & explanation of how this terrible device works and why it should be banned. 👍
Great demonstration! Would love to see in other mouth pieces, snaffle, ports etc 😊
me too
Conversion in kg:
19 lbs = 8,6183 kgs direct rein force
46 lbs = 20,8652 kgs crush force
Approximately 10 kgs of pressure each on the noseband and the chin strap.
I don’t understand how is a horse supposed to understand the signals of this bridle? Pressure on the nasal bone would mean to lower the head, but then there is the counter pressure on the chin strap which prevents the horse to lower its head? It must be like a trap so I imagine it creates panic and a head shy horse in the long run. Can it break the nasal bone when pulled too much? Only my modest observations, I’m not a horse owner.
You've got it. You'll see horses really fight these things when too much pressure is applied. Yes, the nose bone would break first.
Thanks for your answer !
I am just wondering if they are even more painful than a bit because the nose is extremely sensitive and vulnerable
I believe they can be
Great job demonstrating what a hackamore does. I think if you are training a horse in a rope halter, you should be able to ride in a rope halter.
Here is a bigger question, why do we think horses should be ridden? I bet they would be happier to go for a walk with you.😉
Yes, a horse would be happier to not be ridden.
The problem is that horses have always been used for work (and wars) since they were domesticated. Now they no longer work in many countries, the traditions are transmitted from generation to generation to use them for sport, pleasure, fame and revenue (the business deriving from the horse's world is thriving)
@@martineinfrance, I agree. If we could transform sports into something like dog sports where the person runs next to the dogs for them to go threw tunnels and over bridges...etc. We could do that with horses. If you want to barrel run horses, have the horse do the barrels at liberty. That would make it more challenging and more entertaining. I bet the horse would have fun, also.😄
@@leadfootmama absolutely but people want to ride them for various motivations, closer contact with the horse, speed, jumping, hunting, outdoor sports.. . And many other motivations outside financial interest, racing or competition. During my horse years, I personally much preferred to be with them, care for them groom them, feed them, clean their stalls.. And walk them like dogs, rather than be on their back!
@@martineinfrance, I believe that is why there is so much horse abuse in the world. Financial interest, racing, or competition.
I love spending my time with my horses. Do I want to ride them? Sure. But I don't have to, to find joy with them.
I really do not understand the "soft hands" explanation. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but if you are trying to overpower a horse by force either directly or by mechanical means, then you need to look at how you are training/connecting with that animal. My dad and grandfathers were big men with hands like bear paws but they were never anything but gentle with animals. What they did was build trust while horse and man trained each other.
Sounds like you had a good father and grandfather to learn from.
Good experiment never use them 👍
Thank you so much for showing this, I always wondered how these bits worked and the amount of *pressure/pain* that is involved when using them. I like to try and keep things natural when riding my horse, and very often take her out bareback and in her headcollar with 2 lead ropes when we are just going over to the river bank to graze and wander around a bit.
However on the roads and hacking through town where there are mostly very nice respectable drivers, you do get the odd idiot on their huge trucks come thundering past, and I feel happier with a bridle on her. At the moment I use a cross under the cheeks/chin bitless, and wonder what your opinions are on those? It's fitted correctly, regarding position on nose etc, and is never yanked on. Thanks, keep up the awesome videos, and more shots of Lena!!!! Love me some Lena
I think you are referring to the bitless bridles where if you pull on the left rein it attaches to the right side of the face? Being a cross under? I'm not sure. If that's the case, I don't recommend them, it's more clear and better to just pull on the side of the face where you want them to go, otherwise you end up pulling in a twisting fashion where the right side of the face would tip toward the ground and pull the jaw to the left kind of thing.
I agree Graeme. Good way to show how abusive they are. Thank you.
Excellent, clear demonstration. Well, you asked for opinions and I've just read them all: thank you from everyone for this information!
You're very welcome!
Wow! Excellent demonstration. I am curious what results you would get if you use the halters you use. I do know some riders who use this information to use a bit - they are aware what a hackimore does to a horse's face.
Halters are a one to one force as there is no leverage. All the force is directed to the nose in a pulling fashion.
Do you have any opinion on other types of hackamores? I've seen "flower" hackamores which would still twist and provide a slight degree of "crushing pressure," but certainly not anything like the long shanked mechanical ones. To go along with that, I believe you typically advocate for side pulls. Do you believe those are better because they don't provide the crushing pressure? Thanks!
It's a mechanical hackamore and completely unacceptable in my opinion. Side pulls are a 1:1 pressure base and do not provide mechanical advantage like the leverage based mechanical hackamores. Working with a horse should never be about resorting to leverage. If you have to even reach down to their face to make something happen, you and your horse are still stuck in kindergarten. Which is fine to be at for a bit, but a graduation needs to happen where we all stop pulling on horse's faces.
What do you think about bitless bridles?
One to one pressure is fine. I use a bitless bridle quite often
Very instructif indeed ! And important because "riding bitless" doesn't mean riding painless !!! Anything bitless is not good for your horse, consider this ! Thanks for this experiment Graeme 👍
Nasty instrument of pain. This was a good demonstration of how much force can be applied to the horse's face. It would be possible to break their nose if it's too low. I hope one day the majority of riders realize that they don't need these devices if they have patience and take the time to teach the horse their signals. Horses are like big dogs.
How do you make a horse stop when you want them to do that
It's a shame it can't be fitted on a human body part and let users actually feel what they are putting an animal through.
Agree totally with your analysis. Fantastic.
Not a name I've ever heard of hackamore. Just the name sounds painful. If you say it causes pain, that's enough for me to want it banned. Glad you are teaching on these torture devices. Maybe there are horse owners who don't know or is it, they don't care. Is there ever a time or necessity to use a bit? Heard and seen people that don't blink an eye to use one. I don't know enough to debate. I just ask why the bit? Then of course, I can hear the birds chirping...
There is never a need for a bit in my opinion.
Thank you! This is torture device 😭 could this video make people using this kind of equipment, think a little bit🤔
never seen this one.
Amazing video!!!
He’s a sweet one. I wish the fillies realized it.
I love just a rope
Thank you for that video, I have always know how these work and have been using on for the last few rides on my older mare... I am very experienced and only use very small amounts of pressure and release strait away... It can be bad in the wrong hands but hey, I have one mare who's mouth has severe damage from a snaffle, then top that with nose bands that are so tight and I have witnessed professionals riding horses that are clearly not happy
Well, you're right, as long as you're not the worst then that's good enough. Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.
I can see the idea behind it and possibly the reason they were used. If looked at historically it most likely helped in times of war when cavalry was still a thing and they had to use untrained riders and used these and others alike to force a horse to submit.
That being said it's barbaric to force a horse - or any animal for that matter - to do anything.
Especially in these modern times were we know a lot more about animal psychology and how things work.
In general though I wager we won't find many if any regular watchers of your channel who'd seriously defend these kind of devices.
It's true, I'm preaching to the choir for sure, but now they have something to show people when they go and make a case for those not in the choir yet. That's my goal, to give people objective proof of the tools being used on horses, rather than it being subjective and having nothing to back up their thoughts on why something is "bad".
It looks like a torture device. Not a fan!
I absolutely agree. I guess hackamores are for people who use pain to control their horse(s) instead of doing the necessary groundwork, spending time with and bonding with their horse(s) like Graeme and many viewers on this channel do (that have horses or had at one time.)
This is genius!
Yes! Mechanical hackimores ARE abusive!!
The experiment is well thought out and done. Appreciate the data. Thank you. That said, there may be a time and place for a mechanical hackamore. Unlike many of the comments, that conclude that any use of the mechanical hackamore is abusive, I posit that there may be a time and place. The device is not abusive in itself, but rather, how it is applied to a specific horse. We're transitioning a 10 year old stallion (w/ a lot of pull) from the aggressive spade bit he arrived with and has known all his life. The goal is to one day ride him with just a halter, but that would be entirely unsafe at this time. For this horse, the mechanical hackamore seems a happy medium, as it provides a bit less discomfort for the horse, while still providing some level of control for the rider. Got to take the horse into account. And not all horses are the same. Just saying.
There is never a case to use such an abusive device. Use it if you will, but know that you are wielding a weapon against the horse and you will always be giving yourself that option, it shapes who you are and will be. Simple as that. If you can't ride with control without a weapon, then you're sacrificing moral integrity for ego. Just saying.
@@StableHorseTraining Thanks for your response. That said, we may have to agree to disagree on this one. From our experience, horses, like people, come in all sizes, shapes, and personalities. We'll continue to respond to this horse based on his unique life story and nature, and hope that one day we can transition him further to being ridden safely with just a light-harness. In the meantime, I won't take offense or be triggered by claims of "wielding weapons" or "sacrificing moral integrity for ego". Sometimes, it really is just about what works with a unique and special horse, and not the rider's ability. But I'll take your thoughts to mind.
Thanks again. I have always enjoyed your channel and your effort to share your personal experience and philosophies.
I guess the question that might be very hard to answer is, "then why ride if you don't have control?". What causes a person to ride a horse that they feel they may need to crush the horse's jaw together at some point? What kind of person chooses that?
Those are my questions, hence my resolution that "moral integrity" plays a role in decisions like that. So I guess, we are now agreeing that you do indeed need to use such a weapon then (by definition it is a weapon as it has an ability to inflict pain at an exponential level to force applied) as your moral standards say "no problem with this method as the horse has forced me to do it". It's a perspective thing and has absolutely nothing to do with "all shapes and sizes" unless of course you're referring to the human and their ability to solve problems with particular tools. Blaming the horse for inflicting pain upon it due to a human superficial need to ride is abhorrent.
I don't know you, you don't know me. We're not friends or comrades or anything, we're complete strangers and I would never expect anybody to have any investment in what I say or do as I don't with them accordingly in this situation. My arguments are logical and factual. To not take offense or be triggered is perfectly normal and healthy and only frames my words implying I had meant to for you to feel the need to write such a thing. Not my intention.
I didn't and still don't care what you do, that's how it works. My comments are for those that are open to higher standards and happen to read that there is a person who watches a video of how a tool puts a human in the mindset that they can crush a horse's mouth closed through minimal effort (or mistake). That person can be totally cool about it and how little I'll stand for such opinions here.
You've come to write on the walls of my house for everybody to see, for me to either not respond or not delete your comment is irresponsible on my own part as I take what I do and teach seriously to hopefully make a change in the world of horses. Your mindset starts when you look at your box or wall of bits and actively choose one that can be utterly painful, that's a really low standard. I wish for the horse world to change and make higher and better decisions for the animals in their care that they force things on to. Either way, most change does not happen through direct contact such as this, it comes from the quiet in the background wondering who is right and how the argument is made to have the think critically about both sides. Your mind was made up the moment you started writing, I already knew that.
@@StableHorseTraining In regard to how I come to this conversation, you continue to draw conclusions and make assumptions that seem personal in nature. I hadn't gotten that aspect of your approach from your videos, but understand that you genuinely care greatly for horses, and by extension, I have to assume all sentient beings that exist.
Please know that I have not "come to write on the walls of my house for everybody to see." I wrote in hopes that you would provide insight, and I appreciate that you have. As for the audience, it is one of the aspects of TH-cam that I do not focus on a great deal. That I am open to transparently sharing my thoughts with you is not based on the audience at large, but out of my respect for what I've seen your produce on your channel. Had I not had this respect for you, I would not have commented in any way.
This is not a forum I routinely share my thoughts, for the very reasons of misinterpretation that seem to be at play here. Although it does lend itself to impulsive criticism, these public comment fields do not lend themselves to terribly critical dialogue.
Nonetheless, what seems to be missed here is that the horse in question does like to have a rider, and does like to work with a rider. But it appears that in his past, well before I purchased him and brought him back to something less physically abused and unhealthy, he developed a very numb mouth and face, and has a lot of pull. He continues to require a lot of pressure from the bridle to cue. Absent the more powerful cues from the aggressive spade bit he had previously arrived with, he behaves in an unsafe manner. So, in hopes of moving him to a riding one day in only a halter, the less aggressive mechanical hackamore has been a step in the right direction. More aggressive than some, less than others, and a step in the right direction.
He has a personality all of his own, and your responses continue to suggest that all horses are the same. And that I can simply set him to pasture until he gentles enough, if ever, to be a reliable riding partner; a role he genuinely enjoys. You see, this horse loves to go riding and working, he has responded well to the hackamore, and no longer requires the aggressive spade bit. He asks for the time with a rider atop, but simply seems to require the more aggressive cue that the mechanical hackamore can deliver, even in the gentlest of hands.
Anyhow, I didn't send my first comments to provoke or argue, and so, I won't do that here. I just wonder if maybe, just maybe, there is something for you to learn from others on this topic also? Or is this channel simply a venue to affirm your own confirmation bias?
I have appreciated thinking differently at times, a result I attribute to the time and consideration you have provided through your channel. Although I may have little, in comparison to offer, I do so in good faith. I don't believe either of us control the moral high-ground, but it appears that one of us may believe he does. So, know that my thoughts are now yours to do with as you will.
All the best to you.
Thanks again for your extraordinary effort with this channel.
Wow... ok, I see what kind of debater you are now. No problem, this is an easy one.
I can say unequivocally that there is nothing I can learn from somebody that actively chooses to use leverage pain devices on horses due to their own "confirmation bias" that the horse needs it due to it's own behaviors. There is nothing I can learn from any of what you have written about how to treat a horse and why. I've heard these arguments over and over and over. This argument is everywhere for anybody that uses spade bits, spurs, whips, crops, tie downs, cross ties, chains, curb bits, leverage bits and mechanical hackamores. You're no different than any of them at all. You're not original nor special, you're the norm. It is ALWAYS the horse's fault that a human must use torture to "behave".
Hopefully others can see here how the writer has stated it's the horse's fault it must have a leverage pain device on it's face that squeezes it's mouth shut through pain points on the fragile nose and jaw bones. The writer has made no visible effort to do everything possible to avoid this and made a valid argument around that. The main argument is that somebody else made the horse dull and numb in it's mouth. I can guarantee this horse does not smash it's face on walls, bars, doors, rocks, the ground and buckets. If it searches for bits of food and grass, every little hair on it's face feels what is going on. If a fly lands on it, it will carefully brush it's face on it's leg and not go looking for something metal to roughly rub the itch. The "numbness" is a lack of connection or care of the passenger on it's back.
It just doesn't matter though. I don't believe I could convince you of anything. I see very clearly how you debate and you're an expert at reframing and distraction and I quite literally can't be bothered to debate with you further as I believe you are disingenuous, mostly to justify your actions, feel better about yourself and what you've done and choose to do.
This isn't about you or me, you've made this as personal as I'll allow at this point and will not engage further unless you want a genuine conversation about what is best for the horse and what you're doing isn't. That's a fact, do with it what you will.
So bits are abusive, hackamores are abusive. What's not abusive now a days? I switched my five year old warmblood to a hackamore and her whole demeaner changed. She's so much happier and we have been advancing every time I ride her unlike when she was in a bit. The whole point of a hackamore is for horses like mine that don't like any type of bit AND don't need much woah. People need to educate themselves. It's not like I'm pulling on her nose the whole time I'm riding. These "torture devices" aren't abusive, they changed my horses life.
As they say, you can lead a horse to water...
You're a hunter jumper, of course moving to something you think is less abusive is going to help you feel better about what you do to horses as it is. This video is about education and what you have completely ignored (likely not even watched) is that a mechanical hackamore is more abusive than a bit unless of course you were already using a leverage bit. You definitely shouldn't be preaching about people getting an education while refusing one yourself.
Wow just affol what some people do to a lovely animal as a horse
I agree, total abuse. Thanks for the insight.
Like anything don't pull so hard, a bit in the mouth pulled on a lot and hard will also cause a lot of damage
like nothing actually. Just nothing is required to go in a horse's mouth. People who really like bits are the only ones that just say "well, don't pull so hard and the damage will be less, and that's good in my books!".