Someone who lived in Yugoslavia told me that there were worker quotas. This means only a certain number of people were allowed to do a certain profession. So people weren't allowed to learn what they want.
even if we were to ignore that this is utterly wrong, it would still be a stupid statement as it implies that we should rather stay in capitalism which only makes an extremely small minority happy instead of striving to establish a system that tries to maximize the happiness for everyone and benefits the majority
@@du42bz you’re right, it’s a false statement. Socialism is perfect in every way and there are zero downsides. The only reason we don’t have it is because of our capitalist overlords preventing the masses from being happy. Grow up
@yeet We have to outline what 'better' is, and what we're willing to forego to achieve our goals. There's always opportunity cost and I think we often ignore that
I have watched the entire debate, I wish you had challenged him more or Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia's model of socialism ended in inefficient firms raising wages causing inflation, inflaming ethnic tensions and tearing the country apart. He is wildly overstating the amount of internal democracy within the party and the amount of support for the socialists in the former Yugoslav nations when, in reality, the moment Croats had the chance, they voted out communists for the Conservative HDZ
I suspect that the reason why these Gen Z socialists are gravitating to these more obscure examples of socialism is because there is less known about them and their debate opponents won’t be able to argue against them as a result.
@@paulhamrick3943 Actually it's because Yugoslavia was one of the better examples within the Eastern Bloc. If we're honest, their economy overall was shit, so Yugoslavia having any success within wat was essentially an autarky kind of system, is really impressive and laudable. And yes, the Balkans people REALLY hate each other, holy fuck. Greeks are fine with Italians and Spanish, but Turks? Bulgarians? Fucking hell
The interest rates in Yugoslavia were very low, even becoming negative in real terms for some time. The majority of all firms in Yugoslavia were all state-owned as well, leading to a perverse incentive where workers would be incentivized to constantly raise wages (since that's more beneficial to them.) The two combined led to rampant inflation. That could be mitigated by just having a good monetary policy, high consumption taxes, and cooperatives being collectively owned by workers, not just by the state. For an authoritarian state, Tito actually delegated a lot of power to each republics. This led to the second problem. Each republic could create their own investment funds. That meant the richer republics created more funds, and the poorer republics created less, increasing regional inequalities over time. One way to fix this is to have a public investment fund and distribute the funds to each state on a per capita basis.
@@anthonytom-duyquang3558 there is another issue in the nature of co-operatives however. They only work when you have uniformity of responsibility within firms. To mandate this form of organisation would destroy the economy. There is a good book on this called The Ownership Of Enterprise I would recommend.
This co-op concept is what everyone seems to be leaning on these days. It seems to me, if you agree from the start that "co-ops are great" and could even bring up Welch's Co-op to show your support of the business model, the conversation can just immediately move on and prevent it being used as a crutch. then you can get into "what policy is necessary for this to work" which is where the idea falls apart (you got there @ 30:00) then you can go into stuff like the pareto distribution and division of labor/knowledge and get to the moderate rather than pure democratic/collective argument
Imagine putting the flag of Yugoslavia in your frame to show you support or want to emulate a model of a nation which collapsed into the worst ethnic violence since WW2.
But that's a double edged sword one could make the argument that under socialism ethic volince was pretty small compared to what happened after Yugoslavia broke up and turned capitalist
@@tf2pyro517 Yugoslavia was an oppressive nation. In such nations open violence is pretty rare. Look at China. But people weren't free and couldn't do what they want. I don't know what is better, an oppressive state or freedom but war.
@@devalapar7878 It was authoritarian, but certainly a lot more liberal than other contemporary authoritarian socialist states. When people were critical of the regime, they were free to move abroad. Each republic also had a lot of power delegated to them by Tito for a federal state, even leading into intra-state autarky.
@@Lobanjolom Yeah, it is as if different people have different experiences. And it is not new that old people suffer from nostalgia. Yugoslavia did a lot of interesting things. But there wer also a lot of failures. And ignoring them helps nobody. You can't solve a problem if you ignore it.
It’s really interesting how many of these socialists and coop proponents are Canadian. I think one of the reasons why it’s so popular in Canada is that Canadians are on net balance pretty anti American, and America is the global avatar of capitalism, so I think that is a big reason why Canadians can identify as socialists and feel like they are doing something good and noble and not radical and juvenile.
I think Canada is a centre of more... Out there ideas, whereas America might have more mainstream ideas' proponents. Plenty of Nazis in Canada, even tough it's objectively one of the worst ideologies to hold. Vaush for example is American, and I know there are tons of Anarchists within the US, so maybe it just depends on the communities you run with
@@jessicalindo7977 I ran with a lot of far left antifa types in college in the late 90’s. All of them were socialists, communists, etc. The difference thati see in Canada in 2022 is that many of these far leftists are very normie. And I live in Canada now and my girlfriend’s family are very normie and have their own software company and even there at times will espouse quite far left ideas about economics.
@@paulhamrick3943 I wonder how people are doing economically in Canada, then. When the system is crushing people, advocacy for socialism goes up. And then Fascism resurfaces as well. In the US you see, what, 60% of the populace in favour of social democracy or socialism right now?
@@jessicalindo7977 people are doing fine, advocacy for anything to the left of social democracy is the province of freaks and geeks. I’m just saying that in Canada you can expose far left wing economic sentiments and still be a patriot or Canadian nationalist because to be left wing is to be anti American and therefore pro Canadian. It’s very superficial.
@@paulhamrick3943 I don't think so tbh, only Tankies think that way. Ignore foreign imperialism and declare the US the only source of imperialism worldwide. They also do a fuckton of justifying China and the USSR even though they are and were dogshit.
I’m a more audio oriented learner, so I’d say podcasts, lectures, debates, and discussions worked well for me. Specifically, the economist has a good TH-cam channel. You can also read the economist, financial times, or NPR!
I'd wager most nobodies will be better informed than the big names like Vaush and Demon mama who don't seem to know much about what they're talking about.
There's a video from like a month or two ago when he does just that. But you have to understand that there aren't that many professors who are socialists, and then only some will be willing to debate, and the an even smaller number will know who econoboi is. He'll debate anyone, but most who reach out aren't going to be professors.
@@Econoboi I'd like to see some debates with more economically conservative people who ascribe more to Austrian school of economics. Granted there's probably not that many but it would be interesting conversation. "Radical Liberation" I believe is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
Someone who lived in Yugoslavia told me that there were worker quotas. This means only a certain number of people were allowed to do a certain profession. So people weren't allowed to learn what they want.
Found you through Destiny. Really enjoying the content.
Thank you!
Hey E. Try getting Yanis Varoufakis on the stream. Might be hard to get him but it would make for a very interesting discussion.
I'll look into it!
Socialim is less based socialism if you ask me.
true
4:23, 18:10, 43:19, 55:55 Sinthe reference? :o
Our debate is the action-packed gritty prequel to these newer socialism debates.
am i nothing to you? NOTHING SINTHE :(((
@@dylanblay2297 You're a king. Keep up the great work, gamer.
@@Sinthe thanks gamer as always.
There’s always trade offs. No system is perfect and you can’t please everyone.
even if we were to ignore that this is utterly wrong, it would still be a stupid statement as it implies that we should rather stay in capitalism which only makes an extremely small minority happy instead of striving to establish a system that tries to maximize the happiness for everyone and benefits the majority
@@du42bz you’re right, it’s a false statement. Socialism is perfect in every way and there are zero downsides. The only reason we don’t have it is because of our capitalist overlords preventing the masses from being happy. Grow up
@yeet We have to outline what 'better' is, and what we're willing to forego to achieve our goals. There's always opportunity cost and I think we often ignore that
This is probably true.
@@plush1993 exactly what i said. socialism is unfailable and the buergieosie declared war on the proletariat
Based Yugoslav flag in the background.
I have watched the entire debate, I wish you had challenged him more or Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia's model of socialism ended in inefficient firms raising wages causing inflation, inflaming ethnic tensions and tearing the country apart. He is wildly overstating the amount of internal democracy within the party and the amount of support for the socialists in the former Yugoslav nations when, in reality, the moment Croats had the chance, they voted out communists for the Conservative HDZ
I suspect that the reason why these Gen Z socialists are gravitating to these more obscure examples of socialism is because there is less known about them and their debate opponents won’t be able to argue against them as a result.
@@paulhamrick3943 Actually it's because Yugoslavia was one of the better examples within the Eastern Bloc. If we're honest, their economy overall was shit, so Yugoslavia having any success within wat was essentially an autarky kind of system, is really impressive and laudable. And yes, the Balkans people REALLY hate each other, holy fuck. Greeks are fine with Italians and Spanish, but Turks? Bulgarians? Fucking hell
The interest rates in Yugoslavia were very low, even becoming negative in real terms for some time. The majority of all firms in Yugoslavia were all state-owned as well, leading to a perverse incentive where workers would be incentivized to constantly raise wages (since that's more beneficial to them.) The two combined led to rampant inflation. That could be mitigated by just having a good monetary policy, high consumption taxes, and cooperatives being collectively owned by workers, not just by the state.
For an authoritarian state, Tito actually delegated a lot of power to each republics. This led to the second problem. Each republic could create their own investment funds. That meant the richer republics created more funds, and the poorer republics created less, increasing regional inequalities over time. One way to fix this is to have a public investment fund and distribute the funds to each state on a per capita basis.
@@anthonytom-duyquang3558 there is another issue in the nature of co-operatives however. They only work when you have uniformity of responsibility within firms. To mandate this form of organisation would destroy the economy. There is a good book on this called The Ownership Of Enterprise I would recommend.
hey you have a typo in the thumbnail. It says Socialim
Idk what you're talking about.
@@Econoboi bingchilling
@@Econoboi gottem haha!
This co-op concept is what everyone seems to be leaning on these days. It seems to me, if you agree from the start that "co-ops are great" and could even bring up Welch's Co-op to show your support of the business model, the conversation can just immediately move on and prevent it being used as a crutch. then you can get into "what policy is necessary for this to work" which is where the idea falls apart (you got there @ 30:00) then you can go into stuff like the pareto distribution and division of labor/knowledge and get to the moderate rather than pure democratic/collective argument
I feel like the hallmark of being a socialist is calling everyone else who acts similar to you not a socialist
As a socialist, I can confirm that other socialists really like to gatekeep on what socialism actually means.
Everyone is a liberal, except me.
Imagine putting the flag of Yugoslavia in your frame to show you support or want to emulate a model of a nation which collapsed into the worst ethnic violence since WW2.
But that's a double edged sword one could make the argument that under socialism ethic volince was pretty small compared to what happened after Yugoslavia broke up and turned capitalist
@@tf2pyro517 Yugoslavia was an oppressive nation. In such nations open violence is pretty rare. Look at China. But people weren't free and couldn't do what they want. I don't know what is better, an oppressive state or freedom but war.
@@devalapar7878 never said it wasn't just saying the argument he used was for Yugoslavia in a way
@@devalapar7878 It was authoritarian, but certainly a lot more liberal than other contemporary authoritarian socialist states. When people were critical of the regime, they were free to move abroad. Each republic also had a lot of power delegated to them by Tito for a federal state, even leading into intra-state autarky.
Lost of socialist/authoritarian ommunist states became terrible after the collapse of the USSR.
Socialim is when Socialism but with -100 Social Credit.
true
social credits doesn't exist 🤦🏻♂️
@@dom8398 Your brain doesn't exist.
@@dom8398 The system existed in China.
This guy obviously didn´t grow up in Yugoslavia.
I know people who did and they hated it.
@@devalapar7878 My grandad loved it
@@Lobanjolom Yeah, it is as if different people have different experiences. And it is not new that old people suffer from nostalgia.
Yugoslavia did a lot of interesting things. But there wer also a lot of failures. And ignoring them helps nobody. You can't solve a problem if you ignore it.
Nice
no u
It’s really interesting how many of these socialists and coop proponents are Canadian. I think one of the reasons why it’s so popular in Canada is that Canadians are on net balance pretty anti American, and America is the global avatar of capitalism, so I think that is a big reason why Canadians can identify as socialists and feel like they are doing something good and noble and not radical and juvenile.
I think Canada is a centre of more... Out there ideas, whereas America might have more mainstream ideas' proponents. Plenty of Nazis in Canada, even tough it's objectively one of the worst ideologies to hold. Vaush for example is American, and I know there are tons of Anarchists within the US, so maybe it just depends on the communities you run with
@@jessicalindo7977 I ran with a lot of far left antifa types in college in the late 90’s. All of them were socialists, communists, etc.
The difference thati see in Canada in 2022 is that many of these far leftists are very normie. And I live in Canada now and my girlfriend’s family are very normie and have their own software company and even there at times will espouse quite far left ideas about economics.
@@paulhamrick3943 I wonder how people are doing economically in Canada, then. When the system is crushing people, advocacy for socialism goes up. And then Fascism resurfaces as well. In the US you see, what, 60% of the populace in favour of social democracy or socialism right now?
@@jessicalindo7977 people are doing fine, advocacy for anything to the left of social democracy is the province of freaks and geeks.
I’m just saying that in Canada you can expose far left wing economic sentiments and still be a patriot or Canadian nationalist because to be left wing is to be anti American and therefore pro Canadian. It’s very superficial.
@@paulhamrick3943 I don't think so tbh, only Tankies think that way. Ignore foreign imperialism and declare the US the only source of imperialism worldwide. They also do a fuckton of justifying China and the USSR even though they are and were dogshit.
If one was learning about econimics as a very beginner, what books or other learning material would you recomend?
I’m a more audio oriented learner, so I’d say podcasts, lectures, debates, and discussions worked well for me. Specifically, the economist has a good TH-cam channel. You can also read the economist, financial times, or NPR!
I recommend either watching videos from the Marginal Revolution University channel or reading the Principles of Economics book by Gregory Mankiw.
socialim
:
Splendid😍. The secret to ranking = Promo`SM!!
Why do you only debate nobody’s? There are socialist economist you could debate.
he has,
I'd wager most nobodies will be better informed than the big names like Vaush and Demon mama who don't seem to know much about what they're talking about.
I debate anyone really! Don't really care as much about clout. If you have any suggestions for people to debate, please let me know.
There's a video from like a month or two ago when he does just that. But you have to understand that there aren't that many professors who are socialists, and then only some will be willing to debate, and the an even smaller number will know who econoboi is. He'll debate anyone, but most who reach out aren't going to be professors.
@@Econoboi I'd like to see some debates with more economically conservative people who ascribe more to Austrian school of economics. Granted there's probably not that many but it would be interesting conversation. "Radical Liberation" I believe is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.