As a neurodivergent girl who wasn’t diagnosed until adulthood, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl was one of the few tropes where I saw a character like my internal self. She was an inspiration to me, not in the sense of how she related to men, but how she relates to herself.
@@splicecentral9079 Interesting point. Maybe that’s true, I don’t think you personally know me well enough to say, but as a whole, don’t we all do that to some extent? Find pieces of ourselves in characters? Plus I’m realising I may have misunderstood your point, so please clearly state what you mean by “fake”.
@@splicecentral9079 I’m genuinely confused by your comment? Why would you think this is BS? But as for being me, I’m doing that more every day, and embracing my diagnosis. I hope you feel comfortable enough to do the same.
ah yes you're right!! I use 'mental illness' because I think it's a more widely known/discussed term, but that's a really good point. thank you for pointing this out :)
@@MaiaCVideos Um as a neuro-divergent person I feel like Neurodiversity is just brains being built differently from other brains The way neuro-divergent peoples brains are built, that isn't an illness.. It's just weird to me because that's just how our brains are sorry
If you’re neurodivergent you have to be very lucky not to become mentally I’ll as well: Parents who don’t understand, don’t accept, scream at you, ignore you, give up in you, bullying at school, problems getting along in school, Uni, job…. Lived all of that.
@@bibliosmiia but some neurodivergencies are, I'm autistic and BPD both are neurodivergencies, but one is not an illness, but a disability, but BPD can be considered an illness being partially created by trauma and partially just really how my brain was wired (being very prone to emotional dependency, and extreme emotional response, hightened by trauma)
I'm a neurodivergent girl. I always used to wonder why people called me quirky and a tryhard when I was just being myself. Eventually I became paranoid of every little thing I did because I didn't want to be hated or alienated. Man middle school is a bitch. This video kinda made me realize, thanks.
but why is Amelie in this video? sure she fits the traits of MPDG and neurodivergent but she's the main character in her own movie with her own self-agency and a world set in her point of view and imagination. This is probably why I resonated SO MUCH with Amelie because we share similar quirky traits but also similar complex problems like loneliness and lack of attention.
yeah that's a good point-I have some clips in the video because she has MPDG traits, but you're right that the actual portrayal is quite good. totally a fan of the film!
as a neurodivergent woman, this video really does a good job of showing how harmful the fetishization of neurodivergent traits is. I think the infantilization of specifically autism and adhd symptoms (ie. cute "childlike" hyperfixations or special interests, cute stims and verbal tics, etc) LEADS to sexualization, the idea that ""childlike"" women are easy to 'corrupt' or 'ruin' is really prevalent if you've lived it.
500 Days of Summer and The Virgin Suicides are great critiques of the male gaze. In both films we see the women from the male characters’ point of view and we get to witness how wrong his perspective is
I hope to fuck that movie was written directed and acted by men because if at any of these critical points there were women involved then the authenticity of the whole thing crumbles to nothing. We have to be real careful with these things' portrayal in media because otherwise we demonize men.
So, basically. Men needs to be shamed for liking women in any form when it's expressed as an artform, but it is "empowering" if women like it. Is there a nanogram of you who see the double standards in sexism there? No?
500 days of summer is one of my most favourite films. I personally think that Summer is not one dimensional but she is being seen from the male character's pov. There are hints when she is talking about her trauma but he is happy about him hearing things no one else have heard. And he didn't even learnt the life lesson by the end. He fell in love with "Autumn" again and started romantisizing like a child rather than being a good and compatible partner.
I think you're totally right! 500 days of summer is an interesting subversion of the MPDG trope, and it's sad sometimes people just seeing as a standard MPDG film
That’s a terrible take on the ending. Your evidence of him romanticizing her “like a child” and not being a good partner going forward is based on what specific evidence? The final five seconds where he smiled as he recognized he was attracted to her, a perfectly normal thing to do? And ignoring the entire final act about his character development into someone better? Sounds to me like you missed the point of the story.
@@pathos7527 That take on the ending was not so terrible. The ending was a really good one because of how open-ended it was. If you thought Tom got good character development, you are free to imagine that he got a better relationship with Autumn. If not, you are free to imagine that his character development was nothing more than learning to have a little basic decency, but is not enough to make him a catch and he fails with Autumn. Neither interpretation of the ending is missing the point of the story.
He did learn his lesson, first of all he asked her to go out on his own initiative, he didn't sulk until Summer took him this time; and second, he accepted her first refusal (and third he tried to become an architect, his vocation).
as a neurodivergent girl who was also a victim of sexual violence, i can totally attest to the fact that (usually depressed) men see me as some kind of perfect, quirky, bubbly figure who can fix them and make them happy. it’s absurdly objectifying, and being in a relationship with a guy who saw me like that absolutely destroyed my mental health. this trope is so, so, so dangerous, so i really appreciate you talking about it
I've always hated the, "no real woman acts like that," because it pretty much pretends me and a lot of my friends don't exist. (My neurodivergency is TBI)
I always considered rapunzel from tangled to be a "good" version of the mpdg, she has a lot of traits that the stereotypical mpdg has but she's complex enough for those characteristics not to define her whole personality. She also fits into the "I made a man's life have meaning again" trope but her and Eugene's relationship is portrayed in way that doesn't seem toxic or unrealistic (as realistic as a fantasy Disney princess series can be at least).
As a someone with bipolar disorder and who's on a spectrum I kinda find manic pixie dream girl trope as extremely toxic representation for both mental illnesses like bipolar and bpd, but also how women on a spectrum are viewed by men, or more like what they want to see. MPDG pretty much never shows anything but the "good" "fun" sides of those things completely ignoring the meltdowns and any sort of agression or depression that usually are included in the lifes of us "MPDG". They forget that we too are humans with real emotions and they romantice only the "fun" or the the " cute childish naivety" side, which happens a lot in real life too. Like I can't even count how many men have started a relationship with me during my manic season bc they view me as "fun", "quirky" and see how vulnerable I am to take advantage of, but the moment I get depressed, or start showing any other emotions than happiness and being over segsual they leave. Same goes with my autistic meltdowns when they're too frequent bc that's just embarrassing for them to be seen with someone who behaves like a "child throwing a tantrum" but otherwise the "childish" aspects are what they fetishise. So yeah I wish we would be seen as real humans too 🫠
So I realized that my favorite book fits into this trope and it's called "Stargirl" and she's querky and weird and extovorted and stuff and I love her for that, but something that kinda breaks this trope is that there is a second book that gives Stargirl more character and isn't just there for the boy, it's called love, Stargirl and now that I know about this trope love, Stargirl is my new favorite and Stargirl is my second favorite!
This video most certainly makes some great points about how neurodivergent women are depicted in media, and the intentions of this video essay are good. However, as a neurodivergent woman who also suffers from mental illness, it made me a bit uncomfortable to hear mental illness and neurodivergency being lumped together as if they're synonymous throughout the video.
@@MaiaCVideos of course! Aside from that one gripe, I think everything else was spot on. I hope I didn't come off as overly negative, because this vid was most certainly eye-opening. I've related to MPDGs since I was a little girl and always felt invalidated by the fact that people would exclusively critique these girls for their ND traits as opposed to 1 dimensional writing, and the blank slate male characters never being remotely interesting. I like that you stick up for us ND girls by saying that characters like this most certainly have a place in media, but that they deserve better writing and character exploration as well as not being tied exclusively to the wants, needs and fantasies of their love interests. ^^
@@markigirl2757 Not really? For one, neurodivergence can't be "fixed." Autism, BPD, ADHD, etc, are never going to go away. You're also born neurodivergent. Mental illness is not something you're born with and can be "fixed" such as depression or anxiety. Just because they're both mental, doesn't mean they're the same.
I absolutely agree. Most of them do show signs of a certain mental illness, and it's terrible that it's romanticize. Plus they romanticize toxic relationships and abuse against women, substance abuse, and I'd imagine it puts a lot of pressure on men to act "alpha" and "tough" because they think they're "supposed to" be this way.
I absolutely agree. Most of them do show signs of a certain mental illness, and it's terrible that it's romanticize. Plus they romanticize toxic relationships and abuse against women, substance abuse, and I'd imagine it puts a lot of pressure on men to act "alpha" and "tough" because they think they're "supposed to" be this way.
Funny you mention neurotypical men see neurodivergent women as only attractive for the short term. Me and my fiancee are both autistic, and I can see that. We are both the longest relationship either has ever been in. Being neurodivergent myself, that is specifically what i always loved about the MPDG trope. Not the existing to help the male develop, but the relatable traits that compliment my own. Me and my fiancee are fairly codependent, partly because we're truckers, and partly because our strengths and weaknesses compliment really well, but neither of us believe that its up to your partner to fix you. You gotta do that yourself. Your partner can support you, but they shouldn't exist to fix your problems.
I wouldnt even say they consider them short term partners, men like that only prey on and abuse neurodivergent women or use them to “get their dick wet” as they say
MPDG: *embodies all the traits that got me labelled weird and resulted in bullying/being alienated from my peers growing up* Modern Hollywood: "The MPDG is my dream girl"
As an ND guy, one line of exploration I think is missing is what an honour it is to be someone that an ND person feels safe to be their truly, truly, weird self around - especially back in, say, one's early 20s when everyone seemed to be trying to pose and posture. One beautiful aspect of love in any relationship I find is being open to each other's weirdness, as so many of us seem to want the level of intimacy that becomes possible when both people in the relationship accept themselves that much. The Perks of Being a Wallflower presents this beautifully imo. It's not about possessing the love interest or seeing the other character just as a means to completing oneself, but stumbling into a relationship that matters way more to the character than their own fear of rejection and wish to hide their selves from others.
Awesome video essay! It never really clicked to me that, yeah, this is essentially an extension of the creepy obsession with “crazy girls” mixed with the “not like other girls” ideal pushed down our throats
I’ve written about this topic before and I agree that the “manic pixie dream girl” trope is harmful specifically to neurodivergent women. Something I found unendingly frustrating when dating was that guys would be attracted to my general bubbly-ness and spontaneity then get ticked when those same traits led to more tangible challenges like task initiation or something. Or they would get irritated when I set boundaries because “they thought I would change my mind” or something. I’m married to someone who is also neurodivergent and we get along swimmingly now 😊
I work in mental health and i find grouping ASC and mental illness in one category as really problematic. Neurodivergent should not be used to classify mental illness.
Why can't we just destigmatize being mentally ill instead? I have bipolar disorder; my mom has schizophrenia and bipolar. Neither one of us asked for it, both of us function in society. There's nothing wrong with having a mental illness as long as you don't use as excuse to hurt other people.
neurodivergent ≠ mental illness. Disappointing as using them interchangeably feels so disrespectful. If people want to do essays about this (could have been really interesting) stuff, the (very) basic awareness is needed so as not to spread more harm.😔
Yeah the video title rubbed me the wrong way. Seems to counter the issue with cynicism that's just as shitty, ((some)) of these movies felt like they celebrated neurodivergence And I honestly really appreciate it as someone who's a been described as a little "quirky'
yes sorry you're right!! sometimes used them interchangeably in this vid but the intended message is that these characters have the traits related to mental illness AS WELL AS autism :)
This video is so validating as a neurodivergent girl with mental illnesses who had guys ready to listen to me talk about my trauma when I would do sexual things with them and had no concern for my feelings. I remember how embarrassed I felt when I realised that I was the MPDG for so many guys but as soon as someone pointed out it’s just watered down autism, I felt better because it meant that I wasn’t actually trying to be validated, I was just being myself. I think an added element to this phenomenon is physical appearance. All of the women in this video are conventionally attractive. I’ve been referred to as conventionally attractive. I’m not necessarily disputing this because I know I have pretty privilege but I’m also a curvy darkskinned black woman so I’m not sure if conventionally attractive is the right term but I digress. A lot of guys tell me I don’t look autistic or they think I’m joking when I tell them, especially because I’m fairly decent at masking. This doesn’t necessarily stop them from trying to have sex with me but I’ve been told I’m too weird so often that it felt like I should shut up and let them do their thing without me ruining it. It’s always made me self conscious and made me feel like I shouldn’t be myself because I’m less desirable or more difficult to be around. Other guys get happy that I’m weird because I’m not the cool girl and end up fetishising me because I’m very attractive to them and others but also ‘quirky’ and ‘different’ like them so I’m ‘perfect in every way’ and a ‘goddess’ or whatever. I’m hyper empathetic too which doesn’t help. In both scenarios, I don’t feel like I’m being treated like a real person and it always used to hurt me so watching this video is actually helping me feel better about it. With the hypersexuality, part of that is just me but a lot of it is trauma and despite being aware of this, a lot of guys abuse that trauma because they really like my body and I’m such a tease etc etc. It’s actually making me want to cry because there’s no reason why I should feel so deeply confused and anxious about being myself around people I don’t even like that much to the point where it’s been worrying me trying to act like myself on my TH-cam. Sorry, that was an overshare. In conclusion, I appreciate this video. Thank you 😢💞 Edit: I want to add that I have also experienced an abnormal amount of SA because of my difficulty picking up social cues with terrible guys (I like to give everyone chances) and this hypersexuality. Being a black woman and already been seen as hypersexual doesn’t help. I’ve also noticed that it happens less when I’m slimmer because a curvy body is also seen as an invitation, particularly in the church where curvy women are constantly accused of being immodest (I’m a pastor’s kid). There’s a lot I could say but I have an essay to write for uni so let me shut up now.
thank you for your thoughts, not oversharing at all-I'm glad you're comfortable sharing that, and so sorry to hear about your experiences! but I'm happy this video resonated with you and maybe did some good :)
Wow I am so sorry. I wish I didn’t relate so much - as a very small white girl I know we don’t have the exact same experiences, but i think for me, looking small and young and vulnerable (with a wicked bite let me add) has led to being oversexualised. Not to mention I grew up extremely Christian (not a pk thankfully, but they run in my family) and when I started to have sex it was like a free for all for all the guys who knew me when I was a virgin…
Wow the algorithm gods recommended me this video at the perfect time. I was just diagnosed with ADHD and ASD this past week and I’ve ALWAYS related to the MPDG trope, but never really knew why. This video totally blew my mind! It’s heartbreaking to hear how harmful and reductive this trope is especially to ND women. Like, I learned a long time ago that the MPDG trope was harmful to women in general but never saw the MPDG as taking some autistic/ADHD/BPD traits. I am just really learning about ND traits and can totally see some of them in the MPDG now. Hollywood really needs to do better. This is why we need ND writers and actors. Also, it’s so painful (but not surprising) to hear how ND women have a higher risk of SA, especially as a survivor myself. Ty for making this video, it really struck a chord with me. Oh and I’ve always felt like an alien stuck in a meat suit that barely fits.
And you have some gorgeous colourful hair! I also related to this trope and when I learned to recognize it I also realized that several men saw me as that. It was why I caught their attention and they became smitten, but it also had downsides. Best ASD representation I've seen is in Everything's Gonna Be Okay. It has a neurodiverse cast. Actor Chloe Hayden seems like a cool person (and just published a book I look forward to reading) and she is playing an autistic character in Heartbreak High, I haven't seen it yet.
@@RebeccaEd Awww ty! And omg same. I cringe at my younger self (I bet you do too) but also have so much love for her as well. I wish I could go back in time and hug her and let her know what I know now. And omg I love that show! I’ve actually been rewatching Please Like Me which is the first show that Josh Thomas made before he made Everything’s Gonna be Okay. He’s also autistic. Rewatching PLM through a different lens has been so healing and I’m so excited to rewatch Everything’s Gonna Be Okay soon. 💜 Oh and I’ll def check out her book and her Heartbreak High school. I appreciate it! 💜💜💜
This analysis made a lot of sense and opened my eyes about a lot of my past relationships with men, how I was really fun for them in the beginning but quickly became "too much". I'm on the process of getting my ADHD diagnosed (but it takes a heck long time here in Sweden). Similar to other comments, I did relate a lot to the MPDG trope, not in how she is seen by men, but in how she embraces her explosive, quirky, niche self.
as a gen xer and definitely weird myself, my manic pixie dream girl is bjork. she just lives out who she is. she is massively weird and hardcore creative. she had a whole heartbreak album that plumbed the depths of grief, but she has since grown out of it. because she is not a girl, she is a woman.
I enjoy telling men what is what these days because they expect me to be all cute and quirky and when I have deep conversations they run away as quickly as possible.
The fact that I've always been compared to these MPDG in the most harmful way possible just to find out recently that I'm neurodivergent is retroactively making my blood boil and wanting to send this video to all the males that did this.
As a straight male, interested on women, I appreciate this channel. Men do wrong things in relation to women sometimes out of ignorance. Your generation and culture has it better. In the past ALL books and movies were from the perspective of MEN. Keep on teaching us.
I’m neurodivergent with BPD and I tend to find I’m infantilized rather than sexualized (often get “cute” “innocent” etc). I did experience a lot of sexual violence when I was younger though and I sometimes wonder if I was seen as an easy target because I wasn’t as streetwise as other women. Meanwhile my partner de-sexualises me by saying I’m too “cute” to be seen in a sexual light, which sucks also.
As someone with many mental illnesses and my friend thinks I’m autistic (but I know trauma can present similarly) I’ve always been the manic pixie dream girl. The quirky girl that all the guys wanted because I was fun and wild but I honestly was and still am deeply broken and damaged.
@@Theresnowaythishandleistaken or become their “fix it” project… or they take advantage of your broken but kind nature and abuse you. Edit: in my experience that is
I think the perfect example of such a character is Emily Browning's portrayal of Eve in the film 'God help the girl'. The backstory of the director/writer was that he was so desperate to get a real-life MPDG to play the role that he turned down every single woman who auditioned until his friends, family and the producer confronted him and told him that such a person just simply does not exist. He then forced himself to settle for Browning.
One perspective I never see talked about when topics like this come up is that in literature, relationships are meant to be (in most cases) something of a rebis. A balance between masculine and feminine ideals. You're not usually exploring a real relationship between two real people because that doesn't and cannot really have a cohesive narrative through line. Real relationships are just two people who sort of know and are comfortable with each other, clinging onto each other as they whirl through life before dying. Romance is just something that exists in our brains. We might try and find it with each other as we act it out, but we never really know another person. We only know our impression of them. A story, especially one that would have a mpdg, is usually a cohesive narrative about an internal conflict that the Protagonist is having. The mpdg is a foil, they're the aspect of the self that the Protagonist hasn't accepted and their existence highlights what the protagnoist is by showing us what they are not. You're right, they're not a real person. And I'm not sure I see anything wrong with that. You wouldn't say that other literary foils are bad characters by virtue of being a foil. Even though that explicitly means their narrative existence is only to serve as a comparison to the Protagonist. That's just how you write internal conflicts well.
as someone who has repeatedly been told my the men in my life that i am a manic pixie dream girl, a lot of my romantic experiences with men have shown that while this trope is irritating in the media, it can also be harmful to real life neurodivergent/mentally ill women. While i am not neurodivergent, I have pretty severe anxiety I've been dealing with my entire life, and on top of that i tend to be a little bit on the stranger side (please keep in mind im from the deeeeeepppp south and that place has a real strict idea of what you should and shouldnt be). On countless occasions, I have been used as a rebound or distraction from a man's problems, because to them i'm fun and quirky and ultimately not a real human being. the manic pixie dream girl trope perpetuates the idea that women who struggle with mental illness, are neurodivergent, or just off beat in any way aren't deserving of long lasting connection, or "worth your time." It leads to men who treat women like tourist destinations. p.s. when i had pink hair it was so much worse. i got compared to ramona flowers weekly.
I remember hearing a TH-camr talk about how they hate manic pixie dream girls in real life, and that just made me feel like shit as I always related to these characters a lot (I have rejection sensitivity from my ADHD so this might have made a bigger impact on me is normal but… it’s fine)
It is easy to see why Nathan Rabin regretted coining the term. I thought the MPDG character is one who would work better as a hallucination, ghost, spirit guide, imaginary friend, or split personality that only the male protagonist is able to see or interact with.
the fact that MPDGs are quirky and cute and sexy if theyre conventionally attractive but if someone else has the same qualities and quirks as a MPDG but is not conventionally attractive, theyre getting bullied for "being like that". Like attractiveness can excuse your behavior
God I feel like this is such a spring board into so many topics such as like WHY the male characters can only see these women as concepts and the fact that in their own lives there must be some inherent yearning for the freedom and expressiveness mpdgs seem to have. As an ADHD trans woman THATS the aspect of these characters that I fell in love with. The unbridled freedom and confidence those women seemed to have was what I saw inside of myself and yearned for having grown up in a very religious environment.
The thing about these type of videos is it's really toxic to even insinuate that autistic people aren't worth romanticizing. Are we only supposed to romanticize people that are not on the spectrum I don't understand the point of this video?
I’m very sick of people diagnosing fictional characters. Doctors are not allowed to do this because you need a lot of history and testing to do. Just because these characters are unique doesn’t mean at all that they have autism. Autism is always diagnosed with a developmental delay or moderate asynchronous development. These characters are not children and we don’t know how they developed.
As a “neurodivergent” woman, the worst thing that ever happened to us, was the actual label “neurodivergent”. I feel like this is just a way for people, including ourselves, to spend too much time in our heads and less time actually trying to adapt to our surroundings. Life will go on with or without us. The world DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND US AND OUR STRUGGLES AND IT WILL NOT ADAPT TO US. We need to find inner strength and need to stop making people tiptoe around us. We also need to get over our sensitivity to words. Some of us, really need to grow up. It used to be a disability wasn’t supposed to define us. That we were examples to everyone, including people like us, that, that indomitable spirit we all have in us, can achieve anything, even the occasional “miracle”. I’d rather that be my legacy. That nothing, not even my own “community”, can or will hold me down and if it does, it isn’t forever. Just my opinion. Take it for what it’s worth.
I disagree personally. I'm AFAB and neurodivergent myself, and I've tried to spend my whole life trying to make it so people didn't have to adapt to me, but I only ended up exhausted and ended up hurting myself. However that is for me, therapy can do what is best for you.
What bothers me with art criticism like this is it's expected that art will somehow represent "real life" while art in all cases can't be anything but a play of ideas, images etc some of which we attribute to "real life" as it is in our world view but the art form as a combination of those doesn't set its own relation to reality. So discussing a "correct", "proper" interpretation of any art including movies which "resemble real life" probably the most is diminishing the possibilities art can bring. Art is not a representation of the reality, it IS A reality.
I feel like you conflate neurodivergency and mental illness in this video, using the terms interchangeably when they are not interchangeable. mentally ill individuals can be neurodivergent just as neurodivergent individuals can have mental illness, but the venn diagram of these two things isn't a circle.
@@MaiaCVideos i’m glad that you can see this too. your point here is very strong and seriously interesting food for thought, it’s just undermined (for me) by this interchanging !
Does this mean any male character that falls in love with an MPDG is in the wrong for "fetishizing her quirks"? I feel like there's a lot of assumptions made about men who fall for these types of women and a lot of times the process of falling for someone is involuntary, you're not looking for any particular thing, you click with someone, you're smitten. Yes, sometimes those quirks make your time with that person seem "magical" but that doesn't mean you believe the person is only there to fulfill your purpose. It is true that there have been examples of this happening in film exactly that way, I just worry that every time a guy falls for a girl who has these traits, the guy will be seen as fetishizing, pedastalizing and every other thing guys are policed for now when they catch feelings for someone. Obviously sexual violence is not ok, and stereotyping all neurodivergent women as short term only is not good either, but is there an acceptable way for a guy to catch feelings for and pursue a girl like this, whether on screen or IRL without drawing so much criticism?
It's funny you said let's keep her colourful hair because it's surprising how many neurodivergent women (compared to neurotypical) have bright colours in their hair. It's another one of the codings that is probably just not consciously recognised by the writers of MPDGs
Films have always idealised their characters. Classic Hollywood is full of such idealisations, both of men and women, and that has continued throughout the history of cinema; the 'manic pixie dream girl' is, admittedly, a fantasy some men have, but I see little difference between that and the depiction of male characters in rom-coms and other romance movies (usually as someone the female lead can change and shape to her own designs, negating his individuality and making it far easier for her to be with him). People should not be fantasy-shamed and men should be allowed to write the women they would wish to meet, just as women should be allowed to write the men they would want to be with. As far as neurodivergence is concerned (I am on the autism spectrum) I'm not really sure how this factors in to the MPDG trope. Most such characters don't appear to be neurodivergent, and are merely independent and eccentric, neither of which should be taken as sufficient evidence of neurodivergence. We also need to ask about the men who desire the MPDG characters and whether neurodivergence might be a reason for this.
I don't get how the MPDGs are portrayed as not being good enough for long term. Usually, they portrayed as being uncatchable. In Breakfast at Tiffany's, the male lead stayed with Holly Go Lightly after she finally come to terms with her commitment issues. In 500 days of Summer, the male lead fought desperately to keep Summer. In Almost Famous, I got the impression that the male lead didn't think he was good enough for Penny Lane, and the musician (I think his name was Russel) travelled to see Penny again but she tricked him. The fact that I can remember the names of the Dream Girls but not that of the male protagonist does say something the women being much more rememberable that the men.
A good analysis. Here's what immediately pops into mind from an autistic agender perspective: they can also be viewed as romance stories for feminine autistic men--it displays all of the necessary illusion of relatability. Can the same criticisms then be applied to movies who present the main love interest as nothing more than the dream of unreasonable romantic and financial stability? In my opinion yes.
The biggest issue with these movies I have is they give male viewers the bad impression that women can solve their problems. There aren't women out there that will magically complete your life
And the same can be said for romantic comedies (especially ones by Hallmark) that give the false impression that men will solve all your problems. Treating your boyfriend as your therapist and savior instead of a complex human being just creates an unhealthy co-dependent relationship. Manic Pixie Dream Boys or Prince Charmings aren’t any better than manic pixie dream girls.
If neuro-divergent women don’t want to be identified with MPDGs, why do so many non-neuro-divergent women pretend to be either neuro-divergent or MPDGs?
I hear so many autistic women have experience with mostly men taking advantage of them (whether because they seemed "childlike" or because they knew they didn't understand the social cues of the situation). It makes me so mad to think about as someone who might be autistic, it's one of the scariest things to think about and it's upsetting to see the behavior be romanticized in men. Manic pixie dream girls are technically tropes, but they reflect real people and real people relate to them, it makes me think of the song Nymphology that just came out from Melanie Martinez where she talks about tropes about women and basically how women should take back the tropes and just be themselves without catering to what men want (aka motherly figures who are also sexual but also childlike, it's such a weird combination of expectations placed on women).
This is interesting-- great breakdown! I have AHD but was not diagnosed until adulthood, which means I definitely knew something was off about me but didn't know what. In retrospect, I did tend to admire these characters, because they were admired for traits that I was socially shunned for. The discussion here reminds me, somehow, of thoughts I've been having about the discussion around the "not like other girls" trope. For me, it was a way to acknowledge my differences without having to be ashamed of them, and yet it resulted in a lot of the misogyny that people have been criticizing the trop for in recent years. Not necessarily relevant, but it's interesting how neurodivergent women tend to read through a consistently different lens
I would also like to point out that neurodivergent individuals sometimes are very attracted to other neurodivergent individuals. So let's not stifle or look down at that dynamic.
A woman with a _slighly_ niche interest gets bullied and labelled a tryhard by the "she's not like other girls" mob. Did everyone expect those who are ANNOYINGLY extroverted to be excused?
I now understand that a comment someone made to me decades ago, was meant to be an insult when they said: You have the personality of a Manic Pixie Dream Girl, you're totally nuts but you arent attractive enough to be one. I merely told them, this type of personality won't fit in a skeletonal frame, it would explode. Now, I realise how NASTY that comment was and why my stalker was totally teed off that not only was I not attractive, I also wasn't attracted to HIM either. Geez, shocker. Anyone who is, isnt just slightly nuts, they've gone off the damn reservation. It saddens me that he married someone with more mental issues than me and has enslaved her into thinking that this makes her normal. I hope her BPD lets her wake up out of that nightmare soon and take him to the cleaners.
I was about ten when the whole MPD thing started. Very sensitive boy. By the age of fifteen I was completely in on the MPD characters and that was all I ever needed in my relationships to come, so I thought. It took me maybe another ten years to realise how terribly those movies misdirected me. There is a particular line in 500 days of Summer. The narrator says that the character of Tom was romantically misdirected by misreading the movie The Graduate. Funnily enough, I was misdirected by complete misreading of 500 days of Summer. In my adult life I was diagnosed with ADHD and thus your take on MPDs almost made my brain explode. Such a food for thought, thank you
AuDHD here autism/ADHD i am a combination of the “born sexy yesterday trope” and the MPDG As an adult i have attracted bedophiles and the worst order of narcissists. Sexual violence has been a consistent near constant theme in my life as has selficide as a result. But… I did also attract a superhero i buried last year, just offering up my experience as a case study.
I think quinie from heartbreak high gave us the most realistic portrayal of an Pixie Girl in real live, the quirkiness is who she is but not without having to deal with real world emotion and the fact that her partner Sasha infantilizes her and and doesn’t allow the relationship to have a equal power dynamic.
Isn't Sunshine of the Spotless Mind a rather major deconstruction of this phenomenon? Joel is attracted to Clementine in their past relationship because he reads her as a "manic dream pixie" who makes life exciting. And even Clementine has been conditioned to see herself this way. Which leads to her blaming herself for being fraudulent - for not living up to the cliche of a dream girl whose life is a magical adventure. In the context of this essay, it feels as if Clementine was purposefully written as a neurodivergent person being fetishized as an object to be exploited; used by others to fill a hole in their own lives. Who then got angry with her for failing to perform that function.
What you keep calling a trope is actually an archetype, not a stereotype - there's a profound difference! Let me explain: archetypes occur all throughout history and literature, spanning the personality traits and behaviors of all humans in one way or another. No one archetype fully encompasses a person, and no person only ever experiences one archetype but flows through them throughout life. Think of it as a temporary "persona" of sorts, comprised of common, predictable human tendencies and reactions to people and environments, that one adopts in specific situations or interactions. It's not a negative thing at all. The only people insinuating that the MPDG profile is negative, are those who do not understand the prevalence of archetypes in politics, literature, history, psychology, and philosophy. The MPDG is a snapshot of a specific set of traits in action; focused on only 1 facet of the character's personality. It does not mean that the MPDG archetype on its own is bad, hardly, the way and the context in which the archetype is utilized in Hollywood is what is negative here. And seriously what doesn't Hollywood ruin?
As a neurodivergent kid assigned female who has been through s3xu@l @$$u@lt I always thought when I was younger that this troupe didn’t sound anything like me so I didn’t know why people said it was f3t!$h!z!ng it. Then later I realized that I am a rare case that is the exact opposite of the troupe. Instead of ‘child like’ traits I have ‘wise beyond my years’ ones. Everyone always says stuff like ‘oh you’re so mature for your age.’ And even ‘but you’re to mature to have autism’ I’m just on a different end of the spectrum. It manifests differently but I do have sensory issues with some things like types of food, loud noises that aren’t good music, etc. though still I am always seen as ‘more mature’ and ‘beyond my years’ even though I’m just a pessimistic atheist with interests in music, acting, writing, science and activism who happens to be a child.
I'm only just coming to the realization that I'm neurodivergent, but my husband used to call me his manic pixie dream girl after we'd been living together for awhile. And it was more in a frustrated sense because I guess he realized my "quirks" weren't as cute in the longterm as they were when we were 25. I set a firm boundary around that because it really had nothing to do with our relationship issues and I needed him to see me as a whole person. I wasn't gonna go through the same crap as I had in my previous relationship with a man who knew who I was but somehow expected I'd stop being that person once we lived together. Thankfully I found one who's interested in growing this time. It's like men want you to be cutesy but they don't want the baggage, despite the fact that they also come with baggage. They can have all the weird habits in the world but ours are somehow too much. I dated a guy once before I met my husband who picked up on some of these traits, like my vocal stimming, and I hadn't connected that to being neurodivergent yet. And he'd point them out in kind of an endearing tone, but every time he did I got this sinking feeling. Like, you're gonna get sick of all those things you think are cute after awhile and start judging me like everyone else. Because that's what happens and it messes with your head. Humming occasionally is cute, but wandering around my house making weird noises or giving an imaginary ted talk while I attempt to clean is not so cute. I also think men are somewhat suspicious of women with neurodivergence because of this trope and the criticisms it's gotten. They see a woman who matches the mpdg stereotype and think it's a cultivated persona, or maybe they've been with someone who's undiagnosed and couldn't handle the issues that can come from having an untreated condition. But we're people with struggles and strengths just like them.
Excellent video. Personally, when I was younger, I saw these types of women as the ideal for me. It'd be 20 years before *I* was diagnosed as ND, so maybe there was some birds of a feathering going on, but I also idealized them. There was one in particular who I romantically pursued for 2 years before we started dating, and then it crashed and burned not six months later. In retrospect, I see how my ND traits, undiagnosed, untreated, maltreated through my religious upbringing and understanding of things, did not make for a healthy relationship partner. And in her, I can see ND traits as well. But at the time we chalked it up to spiritual stuff and unhealthy messages from modern religion.
I'm talking about this in here since you put Alaska here. I've read and watched looking for Alaska and I have to say they seem like two different people. In the novel, she feels one dimensional and just there for Miles to lust on. On the show, you see more of her, her backstory, why she acts like that, and more of her in general. She feels more real. But that's just my opinion
I appreciate this breakdown! As I'm listening to this, I can see how a lot of that trope affected my own dating life... especially during that era that it was running rampant, (the 500 Days of Summer, Scott Pilgrim time frame). I'll never forget my experience with guys that seemed to idealize my depression and quirkiness as "more authentic" and honestly using my emotional intelligence (learned by dealing with trauma) to figure out how to become better with their feelings, only to drop me off for an "easier" partner since I was "too much to deal with".
That’s a brilliant clip of Clementine’s speech to Joel, she’s telling him I’m not going to be your MPDG, she’s literally pulling the whole trope apart.
Garden State clearly points out the male character's faults from the first scene. He is a man shut off from his feelings who has been overmedicated for years. The film is not about how Natalie Portmans character pulls him into the real world. While she is a huge part of his transformation, if you think the movie focuses on her then you missed the point entirely. The male opens up to everyone. His friends. His father. The supporting characters. He stops running from his feelings and opens up to life as a whole. As for the Portman character being one dementional, I do not agree with that. Quirky? Sure. But I never get the impression she makes it her mission to fix the guy. She simply falls in love and does her best to navigate the corners of a new and strange relationship. Braff wrote her as in tune with her feelings and genuine about who she is. I have known women like that in my life and even married one. So to say the type does not exist in reality is not true.
Is there a version of the MPDG where the girl changes the guy’s life and makes him feel alive, _not_ by being completely childish, insanely perky, ignoring of social cues and out-of-touch with reality but instead of being fun-loving but knowing when to be serious, mindful of social norms but not afraid to divert a touch when they don’t do good at the current moment and aware of the harshness of reality but refuses to let that get to her?
Men and women see women very differently. Granted movies tend to overplay these type of quirky characters, but I have most certainly met or seen women who act similar to these kind of characters, albeit toned down. The problem is that a lot of men mistake "quirky" for "interesting," which I don't do. You call it neurodivergent but most men would just call it weird, the same way a guy staring at you because he's trying to think of something to say would be called weird. From a writing perspective, as I mentioned, it makes these female characters appear more interesting and fun to write, and I'm sure they're more fun to play for the actresses than a bland woman waxing on about her degree in art science, but I think the MPDG is to men's romances what the Christian Grey/Edward Cullen types are for women's romances. Those guys have no personality or agency, they just want to secure the love of the main character and have no goals beyond that. Many men won't admit it but there's a fear of emotional safety. I think a majority of men fantasize about a woman who we can depend on emotionally who can help us work through our personal trauma without judgement, because doing that in real life is incredibly risky and often bites us in the ass and gets used against us in the long run.
Ruby Sparks sprung straight to mind when you started talking about this genre and I think you showed clips - damn that movie is a warning about Manc Pixie Dream Girls for sure. I think John Cusack's Say Anything or a similar one of his earlier movies is one of the first memories of these types of movies, The Girl Next Door with Elisha Cuthbert is a bit like that.
You are so right about the male characters in these films. I refer to them as Low Optimism Sexually Excluded Rejects. They are both perpetrators of mistreatment of a vulnerable MPDG and are the victims themselves of easily being manipulated and taken advantage of.
I think this would be less of an issue if writers wrote about the depressive side of the MPDG and the male protagonist trying to make her comfortable in that time of her life.
I'm aging myself but it made me think of Sarah Jessica Parker's character SanDee in LA Story. Energetic, no direction, the guy needs a life lesson, she's fun for a while, etc. Wow, now I have a name for it!
My girlfriend and I (both autistic to some extent) make fun of the MPDG trope all the time, theres alot of times where one of us will be emotionally unavailable or will have lower self esteem than we should, it can make things hard as far as the relationship goes and is really a test of patience and not getting flustered/mad at eachother for things that cannot be helped. People with Autism and related neurodivergence's specifically, suffer from loneliness, depression, social awkardness and other traits that make you almost want to shut down sometimes and be alone. even when someone is telling you to your face that they love you and want you with them you will deny it because its easier to believe that the negative things you think about yourself are true, and that your partner is simply mistaken in what they think about you. I think some men definitely run into women like that thinking things will be very fun and enjoyable all the time and quite similar to how a mpdg is in a movie, when in reality that kind of person is someone who needs to be worked with the most in the relationship, I've run into a similar issue from the mens side where a relationship will be really great for the first few months to half year but then things start to fall apart. Feels bad but I'm glad I found who I'm with, wouldn't have it any other way, I think neurodivergent people work best in a relationship when paired with another ND person, Its just easier to relate and feel like you are related to, its also nice that when you don't wanna go out or do something with lots of other people, the other person will generally agree or at least understand what you're feeling.
I’m a guy who happens to be neurodivergent (AuDHD). I always found it weird that a guy is painted neurodivergent. He’s either some super genius or a complete psycho. It would be really nice to see some sort of romcom where it’s two “quirky” people. The closest thing that I can think of who that is the French film MicMacs
What a wonderful video! I am writing my graduation dissertation on the manic pixie dream girl trope, and this gave me some new perspectives. Thank you so much. I loved it
I remember seeing 500 days of summer when I was about 13 I saw so much of myself in Summer that I would jokingly call myself a manic pixie dream girl. Found out I was autistic 2 years ago.
I feel really relieved watching this because I have seen so many criticizes for these character when I identify myself with them. I dont think I am neurodivergent but Pixie dream girls have traits I always associate (like Anna or Rapunzel in Disney too) so when people criticize them or say they dont exist or they are superficial...it was a little bit rude. I can stand the criticism but yes the problem is the Pixy Girl is always thing through male gaze which is not helpful to stop the insecurities or the wrong analysis. Thank you for your video
Thank you for this video. I have to rethink my whole life after watching this. It gave me a different perspective about things that happened to me that I never really understood.
I think the problem is we're ladies in lakes giving other people swords, instead of being given our own quests. The neurodivergent are often coded as sooth-sayers or mystics, and often these characters in ancient fiction pointed the hero on their way or warned heroes of this or that, but are rarely protagonists. Not much has changed, people with "special minds" are treated that way now. Tell us the thing we need to know so we can get away from your presence as quickly as possible...
This is probably one of the best film criticism videos I've ever seen. Very well done, very informative, a lot of stuff I'd never thought of. So much better than the alternative "hollywood has gone woke' kind of crap that has filled up the internet.
As a neurodivergent girl who wasn’t diagnosed until adulthood, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl was one of the few tropes where I saw a character like my internal self. She was an inspiration to me, not in the sense of how she related to men, but how she relates to herself.
thanks for sharing your experience, I'm glad some of the topics covered in the video struck home :)
@@splicecentral9079 Interesting point. Maybe that’s true, I don’t think you personally know me well enough to say, but as a whole, don’t we all do that to some extent? Find pieces of ourselves in characters?
Plus I’m realising I may have misunderstood your point, so please clearly state what you mean by “fake”.
@@theetherealshaye I can already tell I hit a nerve. Movies aren't real. Be you. People can smell through BS.
@@splicecentral9079 I’m genuinely confused by your comment? Why would you think this is BS? But as for being me, I’m doing that more every day, and embracing my diagnosis. I hope you feel comfortable enough to do the same.
@@theetherealshaye Forget what I said. If you choose not too at least take it woth a grain of salt. You'll be okay.
I would like to point out that neurodivergency is is not the same mental illness, even if they intersect
ah yes you're right!! I use 'mental illness' because I think it's a more widely known/discussed term, but that's a really good point. thank you for pointing this out :)
Hmm that’s a good point. I am nuerotypical but have mental health disorders (GAD and Depression)
@@MaiaCVideos Um as a neuro-divergent person I feel like
Neurodiversity is just brains being built differently from other brains
The way neuro-divergent peoples brains are built, that isn't an illness..
It's just weird to me because that's just how our brains are
sorry
If you’re neurodivergent you have to be very lucky not to become mentally I’ll as well: Parents who don’t understand, don’t accept, scream at you, ignore you, give up in you, bullying at school, problems getting along in school, Uni, job…. Lived all of that.
@@bibliosmiia but some neurodivergencies are, I'm autistic and BPD both are neurodivergencies, but one is not an illness, but a disability, but BPD can be considered an illness being partially created by trauma and partially just really how my brain was wired (being very prone to emotional dependency, and extreme emotional response, hightened by trauma)
I'm a neurodivergent girl. I always used to wonder why people called me quirky and a tryhard when I was just being myself. Eventually I became paranoid of every little thing I did because I didn't want to be hated or alienated. Man middle school is a bitch. This video kinda made me realize, thanks.
glad this hit home :)
Some Spotted & Mocked Our Quirkiness 🧚♀️
@@MaiaCVideos Our Masking/Acting Works😂 IRL
@@MaiaCVideos Avoid stereotyping Aspies! 🧚♀️
Hope you doing great now.
but why is Amelie in this video? sure she fits the traits of MPDG and neurodivergent but she's the main character in her own movie with her own self-agency and a world set in her point of view and imagination. This is probably why I resonated SO MUCH with Amelie because we share similar quirky traits but also similar complex problems like loneliness and lack of attention.
yeah that's a good point-I have some clips in the video because she has MPDG traits, but you're right that the actual portrayal is quite good. totally a fan of the film!
Agreed, I don't think she fits the MPDG definition. She is fleshed out and she has a character arc.
Exactly. And her male love interest is more of a side character, not someone she completely revolves around to make his life better.
She's amazing and a wonderful representation of someone struggling with very inward turning coping mechanisms. I love that movie so much!
I would like to add Ghost World to that list.
as a neurodivergent woman, this video really does a good job of showing how harmful the fetishization of neurodivergent traits is. I think the infantilization of specifically autism and adhd symptoms (ie. cute "childlike" hyperfixations or special interests, cute stims and verbal tics, etc) LEADS to sexualization, the idea that ""childlike"" women are easy to 'corrupt' or 'ruin' is really prevalent if you've lived it.
that's a really important point! it's awful (and weird) how the issues of infantilization and sexualization are intertwined, and both so prevalent
all women are like children
@@MaiaCVideos Infantilized Hypersexualization♀️
Targeted by Sexual Predators & Narcs 👹
Male Fantasy To Corrupt ♀️'s Innocence !
I want a show where two manic pixie dream girls fall in love with each other
omg yes please
I would sell my soul for that
it happened in 4 season of stranger things
@@brudnydywan3968 Wait, when?
no pls not, it's already on every show
500 Days of Summer and The Virgin Suicides are great critiques of the male gaze. In both films we see the women from the male characters’ point of view and we get to witness how wrong his perspective is
Totally agree. 500 Days of Summer especially is such an interesting critique!
I hope to fuck that movie was written directed and acted by men because if at any of these critical points there were women involved then the authenticity of the whole thing crumbles to nothing. We have to be real careful with these things' portrayal in media because otherwise we demonize men.
So, basically. Men needs to be shamed for liking women in any form when it's expressed as an artform, but it is "empowering" if women like it.
Is there a nanogram of you who see the double standards in sexism there? No?
@@BusinessWolf1 Yeah, and they should be demonized more
Also Ruby Sparks. It's literary a guy imagining his perfect girlfriend to life until she proves too much and he makes her disappear.
500 days of summer is one of my most favourite films. I personally think that Summer is not one dimensional but she is being seen from the male character's pov. There are hints when she is talking about her trauma but he is happy about him hearing things no one else have heard. And he didn't even learnt the life lesson by the end. He fell in love with "Autumn" again and started romantisizing like a child rather than being a good and compatible partner.
I think you're totally right! 500 days of summer is an interesting subversion of the MPDG trope, and it's sad sometimes people just seeing as a standard MPDG film
That’s a terrible take on the ending. Your evidence of him romanticizing her “like a child” and not being a good partner going forward is based on what specific evidence? The final five seconds where he smiled as he recognized he was attracted to her, a perfectly normal thing to do? And ignoring the entire final act about his character development into someone better? Sounds to me like you missed the point of the story.
@@pathos7527 That take on the ending was not so terrible. The ending was a really good one because of how open-ended it was. If you thought Tom got good character development, you are free to imagine that he got a better relationship with Autumn. If not, you are free to imagine that his character development was nothing more than learning to have a little basic decency, but is not enough to make him a catch and he fails with Autumn. Neither interpretation of the ending is missing the point of the story.
He did learn his lesson, first of all he asked her to go out on his own initiative, he didn't sulk until Summer took him this time; and second, he accepted her first refusal (and third he tried to become an architect, his vocation).
as a neurodivergent girl who was also a victim of sexual violence, i can totally attest to the fact that (usually depressed) men see me as some kind of perfect, quirky, bubbly figure who can fix them and make them happy. it’s absurdly objectifying, and being in a relationship with a guy who saw me like that absolutely destroyed my mental health. this trope is so, so, so dangerous, so i really appreciate you talking about it
thank you for sharing your experience!! glad you enjoyed the vid :)
I hope you’re doing okay
i had an ex SA me, he literally didn't hear me tell him no 5 times before that.... rough way to find out that you were an object to them.
you should stop talking and make someone a good wife
@@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow
✨🤗✨
I've always hated the, "no real woman acts like that," because it pretty much pretends me and a lot of my friends don't exist. (My neurodivergency is TBI)
What does TBI stand for?
@@beethovensfidelio traumatic brain injury
Me too!! I do feel like I act alot like an MPDG unfortunately (my neurodivergency is autism and adhd)
I always considered rapunzel from tangled to be a "good" version of the mpdg, she has a lot of traits that the stereotypical mpdg has but she's complex enough for those characteristics not to define her whole personality. She also fits into the "I made a man's life have meaning again" trope but her and Eugene's relationship is portrayed in way that doesn't seem toxic or unrealistic (as realistic as a fantasy Disney princess series can be at least).
Oh shoot… that’s why I relate with her so well.
As a someone with bipolar disorder and who's on a spectrum I kinda find manic pixie dream girl trope as extremely toxic representation for both mental illnesses like bipolar and bpd, but also how women on a spectrum are viewed by men, or more like what they want to see.
MPDG pretty much never shows anything but the "good" "fun" sides of those things completely ignoring the meltdowns and any sort of agression or depression that usually are included in the lifes of us "MPDG".
They forget that we too are humans with real emotions and they romantice only the "fun" or the the " cute childish naivety" side, which happens a lot in real life too. Like I can't even count how many men have started a relationship with me during my manic season bc they view me as "fun", "quirky" and see how vulnerable I am to take advantage of, but the moment I get depressed, or start showing any other emotions than happiness and being over segsual they leave.
Same goes with my autistic meltdowns when they're too frequent bc that's just embarrassing for them to be seen with someone who behaves like a "child throwing a tantrum" but otherwise the "childish" aspects are what they fetishise.
So yeah I wish we would be seen as real humans too 🫠
So I realized that my favorite book fits into this trope and it's called "Stargirl" and she's querky and weird and extovorted and stuff and I love her for that, but something that kinda breaks this trope is that there is a second book that gives Stargirl more character and isn't just there for the boy, it's called love, Stargirl and now that I know about this trope love, Stargirl is my new favorite and Stargirl is my second favorite!
that's really cool, I'll have to check it out!
Her Character Arc Sounds Great 🎉 NGL
I love the movie that was based on the book :) adorable!
I loved that book.
This video most certainly makes some great points about how neurodivergent women are depicted in media, and the intentions of this video essay are good. However, as a neurodivergent woman who also suffers from mental illness, it made me a bit uncomfortable to hear mental illness and neurodivergency being lumped together as if they're synonymous throughout the video.
I totally see your point, I regret that I wasn’t more conscious about making a distinction in this vid. thanks for pointing this out!
@@MaiaCVideos of course! Aside from that one gripe, I think everything else was spot on. I hope I didn't come off as overly negative, because this vid was most certainly eye-opening. I've related to MPDGs since I was a little girl and always felt invalidated by the fact that people would exclusively critique these girls for their ND traits as opposed to 1 dimensional writing, and the blank slate male characters never being remotely interesting.
I like that you stick up for us ND girls by saying that characters like this most certainly have a place in media, but that they deserve better writing and character exploration as well as not being tied exclusively to the wants, needs and fantasies of their love interests. ^^
Isn’t it the same thing? Like mental illness is a form of neurodivergence no?
@@markigirl2757 Not really? For one, neurodivergence can't be "fixed." Autism, BPD, ADHD, etc, are never going to go away. You're also born neurodivergent. Mental illness is not something you're born with and can be "fixed" such as depression or anxiety. Just because they're both mental, doesn't mean they're the same.
Okay, let’s get rip of the bad boy trope because it capitalize and fetishes men’s mental health that’s never addressed
I've never seen the bad boy trope looked at from that perspective, but you make a great point, so I'd love to explore that in a future vid!
Yes!!
I absolutely agree. Most of them do show signs of a certain mental illness, and it's terrible that it's romanticize. Plus they romanticize toxic relationships and abuse against women, substance abuse, and I'd imagine it puts a lot of pressure on men to act "alpha" and "tough" because they think they're "supposed to" be this way.
I absolutely agree. Most of them do show signs of a certain mental illness, and it's terrible that it's romanticize. Plus they romanticize toxic relationships and abuse against women, substance abuse, and I'd imagine it puts a lot of pressure on men to act "alpha" and "tough" because they think they're "supposed to" be this way.
You think there aren’t manic pixie dream boys?
Funny you mention neurotypical men see neurodivergent women as only attractive for the short term. Me and my fiancee are both autistic, and I can see that. We are both the longest relationship either has ever been in. Being neurodivergent myself, that is specifically what i always loved about the MPDG trope. Not the existing to help the male develop, but the relatable traits that compliment my own. Me and my fiancee are fairly codependent, partly because we're truckers, and partly because our strengths and weaknesses compliment really well, but neither of us believe that its up to your partner to fix you. You gotta do that yourself. Your partner can support you, but they shouldn't exist to fix your problems.
I wouldnt even say they consider them short term partners, men like that only prey on and abuse neurodivergent women or use them to “get their dick wet” as they say
MPDG: *embodies all the traits that got me labelled weird and resulted in bullying/being alienated from my peers growing up*
Modern Hollywood: "The MPDG is my dream girl"
As an ND guy, one line of exploration I think is missing is what an honour it is to be someone that an ND person feels safe to be their truly, truly, weird self around - especially back in, say, one's early 20s when everyone seemed to be trying to pose and posture. One beautiful aspect of love in any relationship I find is being open to each other's weirdness, as so many of us seem to want the level of intimacy that becomes possible when both people in the relationship accept themselves that much. The Perks of Being a Wallflower presents this beautifully imo. It's not about possessing the love interest or seeing the other character just as a means to completing oneself, but stumbling into a relationship that matters way more to the character than their own fear of rejection and wish to hide their selves from others.
Awesome video essay! It never really clicked to me that, yeah, this is essentially an extension of the creepy obsession with “crazy girls” mixed with the “not like other girls” ideal pushed down our throats
totally, glad you enjoyed!
media represents reality, in this case.
I’ve written about this topic before and I agree that the “manic pixie dream girl” trope is harmful specifically to neurodivergent women. Something I found unendingly frustrating when dating was that guys would be attracted to my general bubbly-ness and spontaneity then get ticked when those same traits led to more tangible challenges like task initiation or something. Or they would get irritated when I set boundaries because “they thought I would change my mind” or something. I’m married to someone who is also neurodivergent and we get along swimmingly now 😊
I work in mental health and i find grouping ASC and mental illness in one category as really problematic. Neurodivergent should not be used to classify mental illness.
yeah sorry, I didn't distinguish enough! for clarity, these women have traits related both to mental illness AND autism, separately
Why can't we just destigmatize being mentally ill instead? I have bipolar disorder; my mom has schizophrenia and bipolar. Neither one of us asked for it, both of us function in society. There's nothing wrong with having a mental illness as long as you don't use as excuse to hurt other people.
@@doesitmatterwhoiam8838 These Psychiatric Labels are Outdated, Sexist & Scientifically Invalid or Unproven even Statistically! 🤦♀️
😁Destigmatize Fun Quirkiness ASAP👌
@@MaiaCVideos Most Labels are Invalid & Rude🔥
neurodivergent ≠ mental illness. Disappointing as using them interchangeably feels so disrespectful. If people want to do essays about this (could have been really interesting) stuff, the (very) basic awareness is needed so as not to spread more harm.😔
Calling autism a mental illness does little to destigmatize it, ironically it can be as bad as what you preach this trope does
Yeah the video title rubbed me the wrong way. Seems to counter the issue with cynicism that's just as shitty, ((some)) of these movies felt like they celebrated neurodivergence
And I honestly really appreciate it as someone who's a been described as a little "quirky'
yes sorry you're right!! sometimes used them interchangeably in this vid but the intended message is that these characters have the traits related to mental illness AS WELL AS autism :)
This video is so validating as a neurodivergent girl with mental illnesses who had guys ready to listen to me talk about my trauma when I would do sexual things with them and had no concern for my feelings. I remember how embarrassed I felt when I realised that I was the MPDG for so many guys but as soon as someone pointed out it’s just watered down autism, I felt better because it meant that I wasn’t actually trying to be validated, I was just being myself.
I think an added element to this phenomenon is physical appearance. All of the women in this video are conventionally attractive. I’ve been referred to as conventionally attractive. I’m not necessarily disputing this because I know I have pretty privilege but I’m also a curvy darkskinned black woman so I’m not sure if conventionally attractive is the right term but I digress. A lot of guys tell me I don’t look autistic or they think I’m joking when I tell them, especially because I’m fairly decent at masking. This doesn’t necessarily stop them from trying to have sex with me but I’ve been told I’m too weird so often that it felt like I should shut up and let them do their thing without me ruining it. It’s always made me self conscious and made me feel like I shouldn’t be myself because I’m less desirable or more difficult to be around. Other guys get happy that I’m weird because I’m not the cool girl and end up fetishising me because I’m very attractive to them and others but also ‘quirky’ and ‘different’ like them so I’m ‘perfect in every way’ and a ‘goddess’ or whatever. I’m hyper empathetic too which doesn’t help. In both scenarios, I don’t feel like I’m being treated like a real person and it always used to hurt me so watching this video is actually helping me feel better about it.
With the hypersexuality, part of that is just me but a lot of it is trauma and despite being aware of this, a lot of guys abuse that trauma because they really like my body and I’m such a tease etc etc. It’s actually making me want to cry because there’s no reason why I should feel so deeply confused and anxious about being myself around people I don’t even like that much to the point where it’s been worrying me trying to act like myself on my TH-cam.
Sorry, that was an overshare. In conclusion, I appreciate this video. Thank you 😢💞
Edit: I want to add that I have also experienced an abnormal amount of SA because of my difficulty picking up social cues with terrible guys (I like to give everyone chances) and this hypersexuality. Being a black woman and already been seen as hypersexual doesn’t help. I’ve also noticed that it happens less when I’m slimmer because a curvy body is also seen as an invitation, particularly in the church where curvy women are constantly accused of being immodest (I’m a pastor’s kid). There’s a lot I could say but I have an essay to write for uni so let me shut up now.
thank you for your thoughts, not oversharing at all-I'm glad you're comfortable sharing that, and so sorry to hear about your experiences!
but I'm happy this video resonated with you and maybe did some good :)
This is so relatable to me...
@@MaiaCVideos thank you for reading them, I appreciate you taking the time because I know it’s long. Hopefully it did help others feel better 😊
@@danackroydsbutt twinnem 🤭
Wow I am so sorry. I wish I didn’t relate so much - as a very small white girl I know we don’t have the exact same experiences, but i think for me, looking small and young and vulnerable (with a wicked bite let me add) has led to being oversexualised. Not to mention I grew up extremely Christian (not a pk thankfully, but they run in my family) and when I started to have sex it was like a free for all for all the guys who knew me when I was a virgin…
Wow the algorithm gods recommended me this video at the perfect time. I was just diagnosed with ADHD and ASD this past week and I’ve ALWAYS related to the MPDG trope, but never really knew why. This video totally blew my mind! It’s heartbreaking to hear how harmful and reductive this trope is especially to ND women. Like, I learned a long time ago that the MPDG trope was harmful to women in general but never saw the MPDG as taking some autistic/ADHD/BPD traits. I am just really learning about ND traits and can totally see some of them in the MPDG now. Hollywood really needs to do better. This is why we need ND writers and actors.
Also, it’s so painful (but not surprising) to hear how ND women have a higher risk of SA, especially as a survivor myself.
Ty for making this video, it really struck a chord with me. Oh and I’ve always felt like an alien stuck in a meat suit that barely fits.
I'm so glad this hit home!! thanks for watching :)
@ Luci Skies
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And you have some gorgeous colourful hair! I also related to this trope and when I learned to recognize it I also realized that several men saw me as that. It was why I caught their attention and they became smitten, but it also had downsides.
Best ASD representation I've seen is in Everything's Gonna Be Okay. It has a neurodiverse cast.
Actor Chloe Hayden seems like a cool person (and just published a book I look forward to reading) and she is playing an autistic character in Heartbreak High, I haven't seen it yet.
@@RebeccaEd Awww ty! And omg same. I cringe at my younger self (I bet you do too) but also have so much love for her as well. I wish I could go back in time and hug her and let her know what I know now.
And omg I love that show! I’ve actually been rewatching Please Like Me which is the first show that Josh Thomas made before he made Everything’s Gonna be Okay. He’s also autistic. Rewatching PLM through a different lens has been so healing and I’m so excited to rewatch Everything’s Gonna Be Okay soon. 💜
Oh and I’ll def check out her book and her Heartbreak High school. I appreciate it!
💜💜💜
This analysis made a lot of sense and opened my eyes about a lot of my past relationships with men, how I was really fun for them in the beginning but quickly became "too much". I'm on the process of getting my ADHD diagnosed (but it takes a heck long time here in Sweden). Similar to other comments, I did relate a lot to the MPDG trope, not in how she is seen by men, but in how she embraces her explosive, quirky, niche self.
as a gen xer and definitely weird myself, my manic pixie dream girl is bjork. she just lives out who she is. she is massively weird and hardcore creative. she had a whole heartbreak album that plumbed the depths of grief, but she has since grown out of it. because she is not a girl, she is a woman.
What year were you born
I have the same exact personality type as her (INFP). And yes, she's my MPDG, too.
I feel like a lot of the fellow women/femmes that I grew up with got pressured to embody this stereotype but in a more put-together way.
I enjoy telling men what is what these days because they expect me to be all cute and quirky and when I have deep conversations they run away as quickly as possible.
Bla bla bla says the hole
Shut up and suck says the man 😂
The fact that I've always been compared to these MPDG in the most harmful way possible just to find out recently that I'm neurodivergent is retroactively making my blood boil and wanting to send this video to all the males that did this.
As a straight male, interested on women, I appreciate this channel. Men do wrong things in relation to women sometimes out of ignorance. Your generation and culture has it better. In the past ALL books and movies were from the perspective of MEN. Keep on teaching us.
I’m neurodivergent with BPD and I tend to find I’m infantilized rather than sexualized (often get “cute” “innocent” etc). I did experience a lot of sexual violence when I was younger though and I sometimes wonder if I was seen as an easy target because I wasn’t as streetwise as other women. Meanwhile my partner de-sexualises me by saying I’m too “cute” to be seen in a sexual light, which sucks also.
As someone with many mental illnesses and my friend thinks I’m autistic (but I know trauma can present similarly) I’ve always been the manic pixie dream girl. The quirky girl that all the guys wanted because I was fun and wild but I honestly was and still am deeply broken and damaged.
this^! once you actually show that hurt or damage they lose interest everytime
@@Theresnowaythishandleistaken or become their “fix it” project… or they take advantage of your broken but kind nature and abuse you.
Edit: in my experience that is
As a neurodivergent woman myself, my best relationships were with people who also were divergent :D
Yup, all but one of my ex has been neurodivergent. It just seems like we are on the same wavelength.
I think the perfect example of such a character is Emily Browning's portrayal of Eve in the film 'God help the girl'. The backstory of the director/writer was that he was so desperate to get a real-life MPDG to play the role that he turned down every single woman who auditioned until his friends, family and the producer confronted him and told him that such a person just simply does not exist. He then forced himself to settle for Browning.
One perspective I never see talked about when topics like this come up is that in literature, relationships are meant to be (in most cases) something of a rebis. A balance between masculine and feminine ideals.
You're not usually exploring a real relationship between two real people because that doesn't and cannot really have a cohesive narrative through line.
Real relationships are just two people who sort of know and are comfortable with each other, clinging onto each other as they whirl through life before dying. Romance is just something that exists in our brains. We might try and find it with each other as we act it out, but we never really know another person. We only know our impression of them.
A story, especially one that would have a mpdg, is usually a cohesive narrative about an internal conflict that the Protagonist is having.
The mpdg is a foil, they're the aspect of the self that the Protagonist hasn't accepted and their existence highlights what the protagnoist is by showing us what they are not. You're right, they're not a real person.
And I'm not sure I see anything wrong with that.
You wouldn't say that other literary foils are bad characters by virtue of being a foil. Even though that explicitly means their narrative existence is only to serve as a comparison to the Protagonist.
That's just how you write internal conflicts well.
as someone who has repeatedly been told my the men in my life that i am a manic pixie dream girl, a lot of my romantic experiences with men have shown that while this trope is irritating in the media, it can also be harmful to real life neurodivergent/mentally ill women. While i am not neurodivergent, I have pretty severe anxiety I've been dealing with my entire life, and on top of that i tend to be a little bit on the stranger side (please keep in mind im from the deeeeeepppp south and that place has a real strict idea of what you should and shouldnt be). On countless occasions, I have been used as a rebound or distraction from a man's problems, because to them i'm fun and quirky and ultimately not a real human being. the manic pixie dream girl trope perpetuates the idea that women who struggle with mental illness, are neurodivergent, or just off beat in any way aren't deserving of long lasting connection, or "worth your time." It leads to men who treat women like tourist destinations.
p.s. when i had pink hair it was so much worse. i got compared to ramona flowers weekly.
yes exactly! thanks for watching :)
@ Bianca M
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I remember hearing a TH-camr talk about how they hate manic pixie dream girls in real life, and that just made me feel like shit as I always related to these characters a lot (I have rejection sensitivity from my ADHD so this might have made a bigger impact on me is normal but… it’s fine)
It is easy to see why Nathan Rabin regretted coining the term. I thought the MPDG character is one who would work better as a hallucination, ghost, spirit guide, imaginary friend, or split personality that only the male protagonist is able to see or interact with.
the fact that MPDGs are quirky and cute and sexy if theyre conventionally attractive but if someone else has the same qualities and quirks as a MPDG but is not conventionally attractive, theyre getting bullied for "being like that". Like attractiveness can excuse your behavior
God I feel like this is such a spring board into so many topics such as like WHY the male characters can only see these women as concepts and the fact that in their own lives there must be some inherent yearning for the freedom and expressiveness mpdgs seem to have. As an ADHD trans woman THATS the aspect of these characters that I fell in love with. The unbridled freedom and confidence those women seemed to have was what I saw inside of myself and yearned for having grown up in a very religious environment.
The thing about these type of videos is it's really toxic to even insinuate that autistic people aren't worth romanticizing. Are we only supposed to romanticize people that are not on the spectrum I don't understand the point of this video?
I’m very sick of people diagnosing fictional characters. Doctors are not allowed to do this because you need a lot of history and testing to do. Just because these characters are unique doesn’t mean at all that they have autism. Autism is always diagnosed with a developmental delay or moderate asynchronous development. These characters are not children and we don’t know how they developed.
fr non of them are autistic
As a “neurodivergent” woman, the worst thing that ever happened to us, was the actual label “neurodivergent”. I feel like this is just a way for people, including ourselves, to spend too much time in our heads and less time actually trying to adapt to our surroundings. Life will go on with or without us. The world DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND US AND OUR STRUGGLES AND IT WILL NOT ADAPT TO US. We need to find inner strength and need to stop making people tiptoe around us. We also need to get over our sensitivity to words. Some of us, really need to grow up. It used to be a disability wasn’t supposed to define us. That we were examples to everyone, including people like us, that, that indomitable spirit we all have in us, can achieve anything, even the occasional “miracle”. I’d rather that be my legacy. That nothing, not even my own “community”, can or will hold me down and if it does, it isn’t forever. Just my opinion. Take it for what it’s worth.
I disagree personally. I'm AFAB and neurodivergent myself, and I've tried to spend my whole life trying to make it so people didn't have to adapt to me, but I only ended up exhausted and ended up hurting myself. However that is for me, therapy can do what is best for you.
@@BirdBoi-f3f cool
What bothers me with art criticism like this is it's expected that art will somehow represent "real life" while art in all cases can't be anything but a play of ideas, images etc some of which we attribute to "real life" as it is in our world view but the art form as a combination of those doesn't set its own relation to reality. So discussing a "correct", "proper" interpretation of any art including movies which "resemble real life" probably the most is diminishing the possibilities art can bring. Art is not a representation of the reality, it IS A reality.
I was a pick me in high school and this video just showed me where it came from lol. Great video I never thought about the troop like this before
thanks for watching! :)
I feel like you conflate neurodivergency and mental illness in this video, using the terms interchangeably when they are not interchangeable. mentally ill individuals can be neurodivergent just as neurodivergent individuals can have mental illness, but the venn diagram of these two things isn't a circle.
honestly you're super right - in retrospect I don't distinguish nearly enough between the terms and thank u for pointing that out :)
@@MaiaCVideos i’m glad that you can see this too. your point here is very strong and seriously interesting food for thought, it’s just undermined (for me) by this interchanging !
^^^
Does this mean any male character that falls in love with an MPDG is in the wrong for "fetishizing her quirks"? I feel like there's a lot of assumptions made about men who fall for these types of women and a lot of times the process of falling for someone is involuntary, you're not looking for any particular thing, you click with someone, you're smitten. Yes, sometimes those quirks make your time with that person seem "magical" but that doesn't mean you believe the person is only there to fulfill your purpose. It is true that there have been examples of this happening in film exactly that way, I just worry that every time a guy falls for a girl who has these traits, the guy will be seen as fetishizing, pedastalizing and every other thing guys are policed for now when they catch feelings for someone. Obviously sexual violence is not ok, and stereotyping all neurodivergent women as short term only is not good either, but is there an acceptable way for a guy to catch feelings for and pursue a girl like this, whether on screen or IRL without drawing so much criticism?
It's funny you said let's keep her colourful hair because it's surprising how many neurodivergent women (compared to neurotypical) have bright colours in their hair. It's another one of the codings that is probably just not consciously recognised by the writers of MPDGs
Films have always idealised their characters. Classic Hollywood is full of such idealisations, both of men and women, and that has continued throughout the history of cinema; the 'manic pixie dream girl' is, admittedly, a fantasy some men have, but I see little difference between that and the depiction of male characters in rom-coms and other romance movies (usually as someone the female lead can change and shape to her own designs, negating his individuality and making it far easier for her to be with him). People should not be fantasy-shamed and men should be allowed to write the women they would wish to meet, just as women should be allowed to write the men they would want to be with.
As far as neurodivergence is concerned (I am on the autism spectrum) I'm not really sure how this factors in to the MPDG trope. Most such characters don't appear to be neurodivergent, and are merely independent and eccentric, neither of which should be taken as sufficient evidence of neurodivergence. We also need to ask about the men who desire the MPDG characters and whether neurodivergence might be a reason for this.
Man, TH-cam essayists just get on here and start yapping bruh 😭
I don't get how the MPDGs are portrayed as not being good enough for long term. Usually, they portrayed as being uncatchable. In Breakfast at Tiffany's, the male lead stayed with Holly Go Lightly after she finally come to terms with her commitment issues. In 500 days of Summer, the male lead fought desperately to keep Summer. In Almost Famous, I got the impression that the male lead didn't think he was good enough for Penny Lane, and the musician (I think his name was Russel) travelled to see Penny again but she tricked him. The fact that I can remember the names of the Dream Girls but not that of the male protagonist does say something the women being much more rememberable that the men.
It seems like people simply can't be different anymore without being pathologized...sigh.....
A good analysis. Here's what immediately pops into mind from an autistic agender perspective: they can also be viewed as romance stories for feminine autistic men--it displays all of the necessary illusion of relatability. Can the same criticisms then be applied to movies who present the main love interest as nothing more than the dream of unreasonable romantic and financial stability? In my opinion yes.
The biggest issue with these movies I have is they give male viewers the bad impression that women can solve their problems.
There aren't women out there that will magically complete your life
And the same can be said for romantic comedies (especially ones by Hallmark) that give the false impression that men will solve all your problems.
Treating your boyfriend as your therapist and savior instead of a complex human being just creates an unhealthy co-dependent relationship.
Manic Pixie Dream Boys or Prince Charmings aren’t any better than manic pixie dream girls.
This may be harmful... If you live your life according to movies. 🤦
The logic here is very accusatory.
How is it accusatory?
Yeah, how so?
If neuro-divergent women don’t want to be identified with MPDGs, why do so many non-neuro-divergent women pretend to be either neuro-divergent or MPDGs?
The single most scathing callout of the manic pixie dream girl trope was the Rita storyline in Arrested Development season 3
I hear so many autistic women have experience with mostly men taking advantage of them (whether because they seemed "childlike" or because they knew they didn't understand the social cues of the situation). It makes me so mad to think about as someone who might be autistic, it's one of the scariest things to think about and it's upsetting to see the behavior be romanticized in men.
Manic pixie dream girls are technically tropes, but they reflect real people and real people relate to them, it makes me think of the song Nymphology that just came out from Melanie Martinez where she talks about tropes about women and basically how women should take back the tropes and just be themselves without catering to what men want (aka motherly figures who are also sexual but also childlike, it's such a weird combination of expectations placed on women).
I am a self-reported MPDG dating a broody guy 😅 I've learned that it works if the guy is willing to support you in your divergent times
This is interesting-- great breakdown! I have AHD but was not diagnosed until adulthood, which means I definitely knew something was off about me but didn't know what. In retrospect, I did tend to admire these characters, because they were admired for traits that I was socially shunned for. The discussion here reminds me, somehow, of thoughts I've been having about the discussion around the "not like other girls" trope. For me, it was a way to acknowledge my differences without having to be ashamed of them, and yet it resulted in a lot of the misogyny that people have been criticizing the trop for in recent years. Not necessarily relevant, but it's interesting how neurodivergent women tend to read through a consistently different lens
glad you enjoyed :) I agree, it definitely feels like this all intersects with the "not like other girls" trope
My ex once said she isn't a "manic pixie dream girl", and she had a bunch of narcissistic traits
I would also like to point out that neurodivergent individuals sometimes are very attracted to other neurodivergent individuals.
So let's not stifle or look down at that dynamic.
A woman with a _slighly_ niche interest gets bullied and labelled a tryhard by the "she's not like other girls" mob. Did everyone expect those who are ANNOYINGLY extroverted to be excused?
I now understand that a comment someone made to me decades ago, was meant to be an insult when they said: You have the personality of a Manic Pixie Dream Girl, you're totally nuts but you arent attractive enough to be one. I merely told them, this type of personality won't fit in a skeletonal frame, it would explode. Now, I realise how NASTY that comment was and why my stalker was totally teed off that not only was I not attractive, I also wasn't attracted to HIM either. Geez, shocker. Anyone who is, isnt just slightly nuts, they've gone off the damn reservation. It saddens me that he married someone with more mental issues than me and has enslaved her into thinking that this makes her normal. I hope her BPD lets her wake up out of that nightmare soon and take him to the cleaners.
LOVE LOVE this - had no idea about the correlation!
I was about ten when the whole MPD thing started. Very sensitive boy. By the age of fifteen I was completely in on the MPD characters and that was all I ever needed in my relationships to come, so I thought. It took me maybe another ten years to realise how terribly those movies misdirected me. There is a particular line in 500 days of Summer. The narrator says that the character of Tom was romantically misdirected by misreading the movie The Graduate. Funnily enough, I was misdirected by complete misreading of 500 days of Summer. In my adult life I was diagnosed with ADHD and thus your take on MPDs almost made my brain explode. Such a food for thought, thank you
AuDHD here autism/ADHD i am a combination of the “born sexy yesterday trope” and the MPDG
As an adult i have attracted bedophiles and the worst order of narcissists.
Sexual violence has been a consistent near constant theme in my life as has selficide as a result.
But… I did also attract a superhero i buried last year, just offering up my experience as a case study.
I watched this and was in shock, it explained so much of my dating life ....I have even been compared to some of these characters
I think quinie from heartbreak high gave us the most realistic portrayal of an Pixie Girl in real live, the quirkiness is who she is but not without having to deal with real world emotion and the fact that her partner Sasha infantilizes her and and doesn’t allow the relationship to have a equal power dynamic.
ooh, interesting! I haven't seen heartbreak high yet so I'll be sure to keep that in mind when I watch it
Isn't Sunshine of the Spotless Mind a rather major deconstruction of this phenomenon? Joel is attracted to Clementine in their past relationship because he reads her as a "manic dream pixie" who makes life exciting. And even Clementine has been conditioned to see herself this way. Which leads to her blaming herself for being fraudulent - for not living up to the cliche of a dream girl whose life is a magical adventure.
In the context of this essay, it feels as if Clementine was purposefully written as a neurodivergent person being fetishized as an object to be exploited; used by others to fill a hole in their own lives. Who then got angry with her for failing to perform that function.
I've dated two guys that I've lovingly referred to as my manic pixie dream guys and both of them had Asperger's.
What you keep calling a trope is actually an archetype, not a stereotype - there's a profound difference! Let me explain: archetypes occur all throughout history and literature, spanning the personality traits and behaviors of all humans in one way or another. No one archetype fully encompasses a person, and no person only ever experiences one archetype but flows through them throughout life. Think of it as a temporary "persona" of sorts, comprised of common, predictable human tendencies and reactions to people and environments, that one adopts in specific situations or interactions. It's not a negative thing at all. The only people insinuating that the MPDG profile is negative, are those who do not understand the prevalence of archetypes in politics, literature, history, psychology, and philosophy. The MPDG is a snapshot of a specific set of traits in action; focused on only 1 facet of the character's personality. It does not mean that the MPDG archetype on its own is bad, hardly, the way and the context in which the archetype is utilized in Hollywood is what is negative here. And seriously what doesn't Hollywood ruin?
As a neurodivergent kid assigned female who has been through s3xu@l @$$u@lt I always thought when I was younger that this troupe didn’t sound anything like me so I didn’t know why people said it was
f3t!$h!z!ng it. Then later I realized that I am a rare case that is the exact opposite of the troupe. Instead of ‘child like’ traits I have ‘wise beyond my years’ ones. Everyone always says stuff like ‘oh you’re so mature for your age.’ And even ‘but you’re to mature to have autism’ I’m just on a different end of the spectrum. It manifests differently but I do have sensory issues with some things like types of food, loud noises that aren’t good music, etc. though still I am always seen as ‘more mature’ and ‘beyond my years’ even though I’m just a pessimistic atheist with interests in music, acting, writing, science and activism who happens to be a child.
_Gacha-Jady_
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I'm only just coming to the realization that I'm neurodivergent, but my husband used to call me his manic pixie dream girl after we'd been living together for awhile. And it was more in a frustrated sense because I guess he realized my "quirks" weren't as cute in the longterm as they were when we were 25. I set a firm boundary around that because it really had nothing to do with our relationship issues and I needed him to see me as a whole person. I wasn't gonna go through the same crap as I had in my previous relationship with a man who knew who I was but somehow expected I'd stop being that person once we lived together. Thankfully I found one who's interested in growing this time. It's like men want you to be cutesy but they don't want the baggage, despite the fact that they also come with baggage. They can have all the weird habits in the world but ours are somehow too much. I dated a guy once before I met my husband who picked up on some of these traits, like my vocal stimming, and I hadn't connected that to being neurodivergent yet. And he'd point them out in kind of an endearing tone, but every time he did I got this sinking feeling. Like, you're gonna get sick of all those things you think are cute after awhile and start judging me like everyone else. Because that's what happens and it messes with your head. Humming occasionally is cute, but wandering around my house making weird noises or giving an imaginary ted talk while I attempt to clean is not so cute. I also think men are somewhat suspicious of women with neurodivergence because of this trope and the criticisms it's gotten. They see a woman who matches the mpdg stereotype and think it's a cultivated persona, or maybe they've been with someone who's undiagnosed and couldn't handle the issues that can come from having an untreated condition. But we're people with struggles and strengths just like them.
Excellent video. Personally, when I was younger, I saw these types of women as the ideal for me. It'd be 20 years before *I* was diagnosed as ND, so maybe there was some birds of a feathering going on, but I also idealized them. There was one in particular who I romantically pursued for 2 years before we started dating, and then it crashed and burned not six months later. In retrospect, I see how my ND traits, undiagnosed, untreated, maltreated through my religious upbringing and understanding of things, did not make for a healthy relationship partner. And in her, I can see ND traits as well. But at the time we chalked it up to spiritual stuff and unhealthy messages from modern religion.
I married my manic pixie girl. I have 3 ASD sons. Life is beautiful once you get past the meltdowns and excrement on the wall
arrested development does a perfect parody of this, having a girl with the mental capacity of a 4 year old seem different and mysterious to the mc
I'm talking about this in here since you put Alaska here. I've read and watched looking for Alaska and I have to say they seem like two different people. In the novel, she feels one dimensional and just there for Miles to lust on. On the show, you see more of her, her backstory, why she acts like that, and more of her in general. She feels more real. But that's just my opinion
Good point-honestly I've seen very little of the show, so much of my analysis here is based off of what I know from the book!
@@MaiaCVideos the show is pretty good portraying Alaska and Kristine Froseth is perfect for her, she's a great actress in my opinion
I appreciate this breakdown! As I'm listening to this, I can see how a lot of that trope affected my own dating life... especially during that era that it was running rampant, (the 500 Days of Summer, Scott Pilgrim time frame). I'll never forget my experience with guys that seemed to idealize my depression and quirkiness as "more authentic" and honestly using my emotional intelligence (learned by dealing with trauma) to figure out how to become better with their feelings, only to drop me off for an "easier" partner since I was "too much to deal with".
That’s a brilliant clip of Clementine’s speech to Joel, she’s telling him I’m not going to be your MPDG, she’s literally pulling the whole trope apart.
Garden State clearly points out the male character's faults from the first scene. He is a man shut off from his feelings who has been overmedicated for years. The film is not about how Natalie Portmans character pulls him into the real world. While she is a huge part of his transformation, if you think the movie focuses on her then you missed the point entirely. The male opens up to everyone. His friends. His father. The supporting characters. He stops running from his feelings and opens up to life as a whole. As for the Portman character being one dementional, I do not agree with that. Quirky? Sure. But I never get the impression she makes it her mission to fix the guy. She simply falls in love and does her best to navigate the corners of a new and strange relationship. Braff wrote her as in tune with her feelings and genuine about who she is. I have known women like that in my life and even married one. So to say the type does not exist in reality is not true.
Is there a version of the MPDG where the girl changes the guy’s life and makes him feel alive, _not_ by being completely childish, insanely perky, ignoring of social cues and out-of-touch with reality but instead of being fun-loving but knowing when to be serious, mindful of social norms but not afraid to divert a touch when they don’t do good at the current moment and aware of the harshness of reality but refuses to let that get to her?
Rhonda from Muriel's Wedding is kind of like a more grounded MPDG
Men and women see women very differently. Granted movies tend to overplay these type of quirky characters, but I have most certainly met or seen women who act similar to these kind of characters, albeit toned down. The problem is that a lot of men mistake "quirky" for "interesting," which I don't do. You call it neurodivergent but most men would just call it weird, the same way a guy staring at you because he's trying to think of something to say would be called weird.
From a writing perspective, as I mentioned, it makes these female characters appear more interesting and fun to write, and I'm sure they're more fun to play for the actresses than a bland woman waxing on about her degree in art science, but I think the MPDG is to men's romances what the Christian Grey/Edward Cullen types are for women's romances. Those guys have no personality or agency, they just want to secure the love of the main character and have no goals beyond that.
Many men won't admit it but there's a fear of emotional safety. I think a majority of men fantasize about a woman who we can depend on emotionally who can help us work through our personal trauma without judgement, because doing that in real life is incredibly risky and often bites us in the ass and gets used against us in the long run.
Ruby Sparks sprung straight to mind when you started talking about this genre and I think you showed clips - damn that movie is a warning about Manc Pixie Dream Girls for sure. I think John Cusack's Say Anything or a similar one of his earlier movies is one of the first memories of these types of movies, The Girl Next Door with Elisha Cuthbert is a bit like that.
You are so right about the male characters in these films. I refer to them as Low Optimism Sexually Excluded Rejects. They are both perpetrators of mistreatment of a vulnerable MPDG and are the victims themselves of easily being manipulated and taken advantage of.
I think this would be less of an issue if writers wrote about the depressive side of the MPDG and the male protagonist trying to make her comfortable in that time of her life.
I'm aging myself but it made me think of Sarah Jessica Parker's character SanDee in LA Story. Energetic, no direction, the guy needs a life lesson, she's fun for a while, etc. Wow, now I have a name for it!
Good point. I love that movie, one of my faves.
My girlfriend and I (both autistic to some extent) make fun of the MPDG trope all the time, theres alot of times where one of us will be emotionally unavailable or will have lower self esteem than we should, it can make things hard as far as the relationship goes and is really a test of patience and not getting flustered/mad at eachother for things that cannot be helped. People with Autism and related neurodivergence's specifically, suffer from loneliness, depression, social awkardness and other traits that make you almost want to shut down sometimes and be alone. even when someone is telling you to your face that they love you and want you with them you will deny it because its easier to believe that the negative things you think about yourself are true, and that your partner is simply mistaken in what they think about you. I think some men definitely run into women like that thinking things will be very fun and enjoyable all the time and quite similar to how a mpdg is in a movie, when in reality that kind of person is someone who needs to be worked with the most in the relationship, I've run into a similar issue from the mens side where a relationship will be really great for the first few months to half year but then things start to fall apart. Feels bad but I'm glad I found who I'm with, wouldn't have it any other way, I think neurodivergent people work best in a relationship when paired with another ND person, Its just easier to relate and feel like you are related to, its also nice that when you don't wanna go out or do something with lots of other people, the other person will generally agree or at least understand what you're feeling.
I’m a guy who happens to be neurodivergent (AuDHD). I always found it weird that a guy is painted neurodivergent. He’s either some super genius or a complete psycho. It would be really nice to see some sort of romcom where it’s two “quirky” people. The closest thing that I can think of who that is the French film MicMacs
Autism is not a mental illness. That's actually really hurtful.
It is though cause it disables you socially and functionally
yes you're right! sorry I phrase it poorly but I'm trying to say that these characters have traits related to mental illness and autism, separately :)
What a wonderful video! I am writing my graduation dissertation on the manic pixie dream girl trope, and this gave me some new perspectives. Thank you so much. I loved it
I'm so glad you enjoyed! thanks for watching :)
I remember seeing 500 days of summer when I was about 13 I saw so much of myself in Summer that I would jokingly call myself a manic pixie dream girl. Found out I was autistic 2 years ago.
I feel really relieved watching this because I have seen so many criticizes for these character when I identify myself with them. I dont think I am neurodivergent but Pixie dream girls have traits I always associate (like Anna or Rapunzel in Disney too) so when people criticize them or say they dont exist or they are superficial...it was a little bit rude. I can stand the criticism but yes the problem is the Pixy Girl is always thing through male gaze which is not helpful to stop the insecurities or the wrong analysis. Thank you for your video
Thank you for this video. I have to rethink my whole life after watching this. It gave me a different perspective about things that happened to me that I never really understood.
By far the best analysis of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl! I hope that every screenwriter watches this video.
thank you so much!!
I think the problem is we're ladies in lakes giving other people swords, instead of being given our own quests. The neurodivergent are often coded as sooth-sayers or mystics, and often these characters in ancient fiction pointed the hero on their way or warned heroes of this or that, but are rarely protagonists. Not much has changed, people with "special minds" are treated that way now. Tell us the thing we need to know so we can get away from your presence as quickly as possible...
This is probably one of the best film criticism videos I've ever seen. Very well done, very informative, a lot of stuff I'd never thought of. So much better than the alternative "hollywood has gone woke' kind of crap that has filled up the internet.
I think I get it: It is wrong to not love any girl ever. For any reason. Even if the girl is fictional and is written to be likable but hard to love.