Thank you roger! We're open shop and use these formulas all the time for remodels and new construction. When you install dwv systems, there really is no substitute for math and fitting takeoffs, unless you aren't concerned about yielding a square plumb and true product with efficiency. Our approach is to drill an entire house out for dwv, gas and water then install the system with the method you just described, much more efficient than jumping between drilling a few holes, and installing a little pipe. I've had that fitting chart on my phone for a few years now and while I can memorize a lot of them, it's very helpful for larger reducing or odd fittings. How about a video on the importance of layout, isometric drawings, and some setback and rise formulas for those offsets! I appreciate the service you're doing for the trade in general by changing the perspective people may have about the general skillset required to be a good plumber. Keep em coming Roger!
Easy way to get the fraction. For example if C-C measurement is 14”. Multiply that by 1.414 = 19.796. Subtract 3” for entire makeup of 2” PVC 1/8 bend = 16.796. Now takeaway the 16 and multiply .796 by 8 to get your measurement to the nearest 1/8 of an inch. You can do this to the nearest 1/16 of inch if your a welder and want to be super accurate. So after multiplying .796 by 8, we get 6.368. Since .368 is less than .500, we round down and keep that as just 6. 6/8 translates to 3/4 of an inch so your final travel piece should be 16 3/4”. Hope this helps guys. Saves me a little bit of time at work when dealing with crazy big offsets.
@@yessirrr8180 I just go to my closest quarter inch, 16.796" would just be 16 3/4" but I do like your way after looking at your method to get an even accurate measurement, it is very simple..but I'm also just an hvac installer and not a welder and don't have be that precise😄
For 45’s take your c x c of your spread multiply by 1.5 and whatever answer you get subtract that many 16ths, subtract your fitting take-offs and that’ll give you your final end x end cut dimension. Your spread is 10” x 1.5 = 15” subtract 15/16” = 14 - 1/16”
Learning how to calculate a 45 reg/rolling offset was one of the first things I learned when starting plumbing a couple months in from my foremen. I have a folder on my phone for dimension catalogs of the manufacturer's we're working. You wouldn't believe the people I met with 6 years plus telling me it's a waste of time while I watch them mess up the piece 4-5 times while I have it worked out on my phone within a minute.
@Christian Cullip Sorry for late response, you might have got your answer by now. There's different dimension catalogs for every manufacturer's product. Dimensions will be different for cast iron,copper,pvc and such and will aid you in laying out your pieces to be installed.
The 1.414 is from trigonometry and is a constant the Dimensions of the fitting only matter for the second part when incorporating your fitting allowances. And my god it’s “specific”
When working with a 45 degree angle, you are actually working with a triangle that has 2 sides of the same length (which BTW forms a right angle) and then there's that longer side (this is the 45 degree pipe run). The 1.414 comes from squaring each of the 2 small sides, adding them together and then finding the square root of that sum... which will turn out to be 1.414 no matter the length of the 2 smaller sides. Now since that's going to be the case, we just like to by-pass all the math hoops😄
One of the best tools you can buy: A metric tape measure! Easy accuracy down to a millimeter. Simple math, no mixed fractions with different denominators involved. I get the offset / make up dimension from the catalog in inches, then convert it (Google can do it) to millimeters. Piece of cake.
I am a DIYer and by no means a plumber and this video helped me along my project. Knowing that I can look up the dimensions of a pipe fitting using the dimensional catalog was the key for me. I was able to figure out the length of pipe I needed to cut in order to meet with a 90 degree fitting (aka a 1/4 bend! TIL thats also its name). Using a plumb bob I found the center line of my hole and was able to subtract the length of the center line to the hub and it ended up fitting perfectly. Thank you!
Great video! Not a plumber , but a diesel mechanic. There are nuts and bolts guys, and there are actual techs lol probably the same in your field. The book way may not always be the best way but its good to have in your back pocket and most certainly covers you when something goes wrong. Kinda like why alot of guys in our field wont go take the ase tests, half of em couldnt pass it lol.
I see a lot of complex (compound) angles accomplished with multiple angle fittings. Things like wye + 45° combos. I'd like to learn more about how these get figured out.
Just finished emergency repair under crawl space in winter...My CC was over 14ft with 4in 45deg and the math work perfectly...thank you measured twice cut once done and it slip fit!
Valuable lesson here, never appear or try to appear smarter than your master haha. Root 2 is a wise ass comment because it's more steps than multiplying by 1.414 and yields same result.
I have to say, I have learned these equations a long time ago an apprenticeship training. I'll admit I have not used it much in the field, but it is good to know and practice from time to time. You never know when you will need it.
This is a topic I’ve been looking into lately. I currently do my cuts exactly the way you said you learned. Just get the two ends that I need to join more or less set where I want them & hold up the tape & measure that way. I’m also seeing the same thing you mention: having to do a lot of plumbing may be really tricky to measure that way! The numbers you’re talking about are dredging up echoes of trig in math class way back in high school. Sinø or something like that...it’s been 20+ years! I’ll try this on my next big full system install & let you know if it makes a difference! Great vid as always Roger! 🙌🏼
I am a red seal sprinkler system fitter and a red seal Plumber I use this method for all my my fittings threaded and glued and solder . Over terms that I use are end to center center to center and sometimes face to face .
Multiply the decimal by 8 to get the nearest 1/8. Ie 0.6 x 8 = 4.8 eighths… round up to 5… .so 5/8ths Just cut on the thin side of the line for the rounding Can do the same for 1/4”, by using 4x instead of 8x Been doing some DIY PVC work and was keen on knowing the secret on 45’s. Thank you for the education
Thank you for showing us this formula. I work at an open shop like you mentioned and techniques like these are important, in my opinion. This video has answered some of the questions I have had during my journey in this plumbing business. 👍
I've been consuming your videos I really love all the helpful tips I appreciate you and what you're doing with your videos I'm an apprentice in Illinois awaiting my journeyman's exam through the corona virus stuff it's been quite the headache
If you have two 45’s ready to be connected, almost always I have to use a fernco coupler. I can’t get one solid piece into both,. Any tips? Maybe sometimes you just can’t if those 45’s are each braced pretty ridgidly. Maybe only possible when both ends are loose and you can spread/maneuver them..?
It is so important to constantly learn in any profession. Great video and I like the b-roll from the movie Hang over. These videos give me good ideas for my day in the life videos on my channel.
Right on, I had to hang some 6" cast iron with a horizontal 45 degree offset, I ended up using the floor to get my center to center then travel piece measurement using 1.41
The plumber I worked under taught me to measure the center to center and draw 2 parallel lines exactly that far apart and use a framing square to draw my 45 degree line connecting the two. Then lay your fittings on the lines and mark the hubs, measure your cut piece and done.
Another trick that may help you to make thing easy is to get a measuring tape that have inches and meters in it and when it is time to do math use the metric side and skip all the decimal to fraction part.
ADVICE REQUEST... I''m in Illinois! I have been looking and applying for plumbing apprenticeships. Wanting to make a change in career from the operators Union. Any tricks to help me land a new great career would be great! Thank you!
This would have been better for me with an actual installation. Its kind of hard for a beginner to grasp with just lecture. Pictures help a lot. Thanks
It's a constant, just a number they know to use through a lot of trial and error. It's just something you memorize because it's been proven to work every time. Like Pi.
The 1.414 comes from the pythagorean theorem: (a^2)+(b^2)=c^2. Take a right triangle (a triangle with a 90deg angle) and you'll have three sides, two shorter ones and the diagonal. Call the short ones a and b, and call the diagonal c. If the length of a=1 and the length of b=1 we plug them in and our equation becomes (1^2)+(1^2)=c^2. Since 1^2=1 we can simplify our equation to 1+1=c^2. Simplifying again we have 2=c^2. To find the length of c we have to square root both sides. So we have, sqrt(2)=sqrt(c^2). The square root cancels out the square on c and we are left with c=sqrt(2). The square root of 2 is 1.414... In our triangle when a and b are the same lengths we have a 90deg angle and two 45 deg angles giving us a total of 180deg (all triangles have the three interior angles totaling to 180deg) Thats why this constant works for 45 deg offsets. I hope that helps!
yes i use to work like pipefitters and it is something very usefully actually if you can do back works if you need it doing by .7071 it is the same but back works
I do the same. When someone is trying to figure out a measurement I'll take my hardhat off scratch my head while looking and say the answer after I have typed it in my calculator
I just had to do this last week. In not a plumber. Just ran the pipe straight, were it intersected that's where the y pipe went. It worked. I have to think, its not my trade.
That's why you would go to the manufacturer's website and get the dimensions catalog from them. Not every manufacturer is exactly the same. I'm sure Charlotte Pipe was just used as an example.
Hey yall im going crazy because of callbacks on toilet supplies and i wanna hear if yall have heard of this or encountered it. Basically these metal nut supply lines seem to always not be 100 percent independent of the braided hose, meaning the hose spins a little with the nut and vice versa. This is a problem because if the braided hose is coiled, it may unthread the nut to the fill valve as it moves. I have never encountered this with the plastic nut supplies, they seem to be looser and grip better. Anyone else deal with this?
There isn’t any videos of someone completely roughing in a residence and saying out loud all his measurements and dimensions. Would help many seeing it practically done multiple times
Plumbers stick ruler is great for figuring out travel pieces. Take your C-C measurement and flip the ruler over and it has that measurement after the 1.414 is applied
what if you had a 45 degree on one end and a 22.5 degree on the other end? I tried halving the 2.613 and 1.414, but only one measure came out correctly.
Most of what's shown should work regardless of metric or imperial. Those conversation factors to find the total length of pipe after finding the center-center distance, will work regardless since they come from trig. Also the basic idea that the pipe fittings take up some of the length calculated from the previous step and that tables likely exist to tell you that length is good to remember regardless of units. Also the final number you'll get from a calculator might be too precise for what can actually be measured so round to the nearest practical measurement increment (I can calculate down to microns but I'm not measuring microns with a tape measure). Finding the right table(s) for the fittings you often use will be a bit of work but hopefully you'll only need to do it once since you can just bookmark the site or make a copy of those tables.
Thank you roger! We're open shop and use these formulas all the time for remodels and new construction. When you install dwv systems, there really is no substitute for math and fitting takeoffs, unless you aren't concerned about yielding a square plumb and true product with efficiency. Our approach is to drill an entire house out for dwv, gas and water then install the system with the method you just described, much more efficient than jumping between drilling a few holes, and installing a little pipe. I've had that fitting chart on my phone for a few years now and while I can memorize a lot of them, it's very helpful for larger reducing or odd fittings. How about a video on the importance of layout, isometric drawings, and some setback and rise formulas for those offsets! I appreciate the service you're doing for the trade in general by changing the perspective people may have about the general skillset required to be a good plumber. Keep em coming Roger!
Easy way to get the fraction. For example if C-C measurement is 14”. Multiply that by 1.414 = 19.796. Subtract 3” for entire makeup of 2” PVC 1/8 bend = 16.796. Now takeaway the 16 and multiply .796 by 8 to get your measurement to the nearest 1/8 of an inch. You can do this to the nearest 1/16 of inch if your a welder and want to be super accurate. So after multiplying .796 by 8, we get 6.368. Since .368 is less than .500, we round down and keep that as just 6. 6/8 translates to 3/4 of an inch so your final travel piece should be 16 3/4”. Hope this helps guys. Saves me a little bit of time at work when dealing with crazy big offsets.
That's the easy way? Lol
@@Lkom24 yes
@@yessirrr8180 I just go to my closest quarter inch, 16.796" would just be 16 3/4" but I do like your way after looking at your method to get an even accurate measurement, it is very simple..but I'm also just an hvac installer and not a welder and don't have be that precise😄
Metric seems easier.
I'm a plumbers apprentice and I just times by 16 to get to the closest 16th
For 45’s take your c x c of your spread multiply by 1.5 and whatever answer you get subtract that many 16ths, subtract your fitting take-offs and that’ll give you your final end x end cut dimension. Your spread is 10” x 1.5 = 15” subtract 15/16” = 14 - 1/16”
This is how I was taught, no calculator needed
If you multiply by 1.414 you dont have to subtract the 1/16ths. Just the take offs.
Learning how to calculate a 45 reg/rolling offset was one of the first things I learned when starting plumbing a couple months in from my foremen. I have a folder on my phone for dimension catalogs of the manufacturer's we're working. You wouldn't believe the people I met with 6 years plus telling me it's a waste of time while I watch them mess up the piece 4-5 times while I have it worked out on my phone within a minute.
@Christian Cullip Sorry for late response, you might have got your answer by now. There's different dimension catalogs for every manufacturer's product.
Dimensions will be different for cast iron,copper,pvc and such and will aid you in laying out your pieces to be installed.
How does he know to 1.414 to that pacific fitting where does he get those numbers from
The 1.414 is from trigonometry and is a constant the Dimensions of the fitting only matter for the second part when incorporating your fitting allowances. And my god it’s “specific”
When working with a 45 degree angle, you are actually working with a triangle that has 2 sides of the same length (which BTW forms a right angle) and then there's that longer side (this is the 45 degree pipe run). The 1.414 comes from squaring each of the 2 small sides, adding them together and then finding the square root of that sum... which will turn out to be 1.414 no matter the length of the 2 smaller sides. Now since that's going to be the case, we just like to by-pass all the math hoops😄
One of the best tools you can buy: A metric tape measure! Easy accuracy down to a millimeter. Simple math, no mixed fractions with different denominators involved.
I get the offset / make up dimension from the catalog in inches, then convert it (Google can do it) to millimeters. Piece of cake.
I am a DIYer and by no means a plumber and this video helped me along my project.
Knowing that I can look up the dimensions of a pipe fitting using the dimensional catalog was the key for me. I was able to figure out the length of pipe I needed to cut in order to meet with a 90 degree fitting (aka a 1/4 bend! TIL thats also its name). Using a plumb bob I found the center line of my hole and was able to subtract the length of the center line to the hub and it ended up fitting perfectly.
Thank you!
This is the best video I've seen on this topic.
Franklin Prichard thank you. I loved learning this stuff in the union.
Great video! Not a plumber , but a diesel mechanic. There are nuts and bolts guys, and there are actual techs lol probably the same in your field. The book way may not always be the best way but its good to have in your back pocket and most certainly covers you when something goes wrong. Kinda like why alot of guys in our field wont go take the ase tests, half of em couldnt pass it lol.
I see a lot of complex (compound) angles accomplished with multiple angle fittings. Things like wye + 45° combos. I'd like to learn more about how these get figured out.
Just finished emergency repair under crawl space in winter...My CC was over 14ft with 4in 45deg and the math work perfectly...thank you measured twice cut once done and it slip fit!
My dad: Hey college boy, what’s the number I use get the length for a 45 offset?
Me: The square root of 2.
My dad: You’re fired.
Valuable lesson here, never appear or try to appear smarter than your master haha. Root 2 is a wise ass comment because it's more steps than multiplying by 1.414 and yields same result.
I have to say, I have learned these equations a long time ago an apprenticeship training. I'll admit I have not used it much in the field, but it is good to know and practice from time to time. You never know when you will need it.
This is a topic I’ve been looking into lately. I currently do my cuts exactly the way you said you learned. Just get the two ends that I need to join more or less set where I want them & hold up the tape & measure that way. I’m also seeing the same thing you mention: having to do a lot of plumbing may be really tricky to measure that way! The numbers you’re talking about are dredging up echoes of trig in math class way back in high school. Sinø or something like that...it’s been 20+ years! I’ll try this on my next big full system install & let you know if it makes a difference! Great vid as always Roger! 🙌🏼
Sin and cosin right marking though!
Any updates?
I like your show and insight on things I've got 25 years nonstop in plumbing and drain
I am a red seal sprinkler system fitter and a red seal Plumber I use this method for all my my fittings threaded and glued and solder . Over terms that I use are end to center center to center and sometimes face to face .
Multiply the decimal by 8 to get the nearest 1/8.
Ie
0.6 x 8 = 4.8 eighths… round up to 5… .so 5/8ths
Just cut on the thin side of the line for the rounding
Can do the same for 1/4”, by using 4x instead of 8x
Been doing some DIY PVC work and was keen on knowing the secret on 45’s. Thank you for the education
Thanks for all your help, we really needed this.
Thank you for showing us this formula. I work at an open shop like you mentioned and techniques like these are important, in my opinion. This video has answered some of the questions I have had during my journey in this plumbing business. 👍
I've been consuming your videos I really love all the helpful tips I appreciate you and what you're doing with your videos I'm an apprentice in Illinois awaiting my journeyman's exam through the corona virus stuff it's been quite the headache
Thanks for the reference!
If you have two 45’s ready to be connected, almost always I have to use a fernco coupler. I can’t get one solid piece into both,. Any tips? Maybe sometimes you just can’t if those 45’s are each braced pretty ridgidly. Maybe only possible when both ends are loose and you can spread/maneuver them..?
Can you make a video on on how to make a rolling offset
Hi Roger, can you do an explanation of the math for the allowance of copper fittings?
It is so important to constantly learn in any profession. Great video and I like the b-roll from the movie Hang over. These videos give me good ideas for my day in the life videos on my channel.
Revit MEP brought me here Awesome vid!!
I don’t know how but I’ve calculated offsets with just a tape measure. And I don’t need to subtract the measurement of the fitting.
That’s only when you measure center to center.
@@jerryrojas6198 But whose pipe or fittings
@@MithileshKumar-dy4mo My pipe, my fittings and my cut !
You got that Kumar.
Right on, I had to hang some 6" cast iron with a horizontal 45 degree offset, I ended up using the floor to get my center to center then travel piece measurement using 1.41
The plumber I worked under taught me to measure the center to center and draw 2 parallel lines exactly that far apart and use a framing square to draw my 45 degree line connecting the two. Then lay your fittings on the lines and mark the hubs, measure your cut piece and done.
Or you could just do the math?
The United Association is the gold standard for training young apprentices, bar none
Another trick that may help you to make thing easy is to get a measuring tape that have inches and meters in it and when it is time to do math use the metric side and skip all the decimal to fraction part.
Always learning from the best 😊
ADVICE REQUEST... I''m in Illinois! I have been looking and applying for plumbing apprenticeships. Wanting to make a change in career from the operators Union. Any tricks to help me land a new great career would be great! Thank you!
Post more open math plumbing videos
You did a great job! Thank you!
You said, "...got into the union." I immediately closed this video.
Thank you, thank you!!
This would have been better for me with an actual installation. Its kind of hard for a beginner to grasp with just lecture. Pictures help a lot. Thanks
Why the 1.14 ? Where does that number come from?
It's a constant, just a number they know to use through a lot of trial and error. It's just something you memorize because it's been proven to work every time. Like Pi.
The 1.414 comes from the pythagorean theorem: (a^2)+(b^2)=c^2. Take a right triangle (a triangle with a 90deg angle) and you'll have three sides, two shorter ones and the diagonal. Call the short ones a and b, and call the diagonal c. If the length of a=1 and the length of b=1 we plug them in and our equation becomes (1^2)+(1^2)=c^2. Since 1^2=1 we can simplify our equation to 1+1=c^2. Simplifying again we have 2=c^2. To find the length of c we have to square root both sides. So we have, sqrt(2)=sqrt(c^2). The square root cancels out the square on c and we are left with c=sqrt(2). The square root of 2 is 1.414... In our triangle when a and b are the same lengths we have a 90deg angle and two 45 deg angles giving us a total of 180deg (all triangles have the three interior angles totaling to 180deg) Thats why this constant works for 45 deg offsets. I hope that helps!
Could you please do a video like this in Millimetres please, this would help me heaps! Thanks for the video
yes i use to work like pipefitters and it is something very usefully actually if you can do back works if you need it doing by .7071 it is the same but back works
What the is the formula to calculate two 60degreee offset
Great video!
Wow awesome video. Thankyou, is there on explaning it all in metric though haha?
I learned how to calculate offsets from working with pipefitters...
1.41 and I'm an open shop mainly residential single family.
@@edwardmarshall2035 bs.
@@WickedG5150 what?
omg you guys make it hard working in inches
Wow this man truly old school
This is great info, however my feeling is: if I am working is it efficient to have a calculator on me to do this math?
Can you also do a video on trap sizing
How does it work with cast iron??
I still eye mine an use a tape measure the few short offsets I do I can avoid this. But still cool
Sometimes I would forget the formula for the 1/16 bend, so I would write it down on the underside of my hardhat brim with a Sharpie
I do the same. When someone is trying to figure out a measurement I'll take my hardhat off scratch my head while looking and say the answer after I have typed it in my calculator
I was never good at math in school, the only thing I was good at in math was the Pythagorean theorem. I barely passed math when I graduated
I just had to do this last week. In not a plumber. Just ran the pipe straight, were it intersected that's where the y pipe went. It worked. I have to think, its not my trade.
The chart wouldn’t work for 1 1/2 or 2 inch Genova products 45degree elbows.
That's why you would go to the manufacturer's website and get the dimensions catalog from them. Not every manufacturer is exactly the same. I'm sure Charlotte Pipe was just used as an example.
Are there travel plumbers?
There are a lot in the union...
Hey yall im going crazy because of callbacks on toilet supplies and i wanna hear if yall have heard of this or encountered it. Basically these metal nut supply lines seem to always not be 100 percent independent of the braided hose, meaning the hose spins a little with the nut and vice versa. This is a problem because if the braided hose is coiled, it may unthread the nut to the fill valve as it moves. I have never encountered this with the plastic nut supplies, they seem to be looser and grip better. Anyone else deal with this?
Hold the braided supply line in place as you tighten the nut. This keeps the supply line from coiling up.
And even if it does coil up after it’s already tightened, just spin the stop the direction it needs to spin(if your using pex crimp rings)
All these plumbers in the comment section admitting they do it wrong is making me lmao
Most of this sounds like "how to calculate yout proper measurements in imperial units"
How about some rolling off-set ?
There isn’t any videos of someone completely roughing in a residence and saying out loud all his measurements and dimensions. Would help many seeing it practically done multiple times
If you find 1.41 difficult to remember, it comes from the square root of 2
Scares the sh!t out of me lol
Plumbers stick ruler is great for figuring out travel pieces. Take your C-C measurement and flip the ruler over and it has that measurement after the 1.414 is applied
what if you had a 45 degree on one end and a 22.5 degree on the other end? I tried halving the 2.613 and 1.414, but only one measure came out correctly.
Hands on the travel piece would help
The problems I have with these videos is that I work in mm not inches, so it's quite useless for me unfortunately but I would like to know this
Most of what's shown should work regardless of metric or imperial. Those conversation factors to find the total length of pipe after finding the center-center distance, will work regardless since they come from trig. Also the basic idea that the pipe fittings take up some of the length calculated from the previous step and that tables likely exist to tell you that length is good to remember regardless of units. Also the final number you'll get from a calculator might be too precise for what can actually be measured so round to the nearest practical measurement increment (I can calculate down to microns but I'm not measuring microns with a tape measure). Finding the right table(s) for the fittings you often use will be a bit of work but hopefully you'll only need to do it once since you can just bookmark the site or make a copy of those tables.
Put the fucking fittings on and measure....BOOM!
It's pretty much like finding the area of a triangle
So I need laser?
Centre to centre x 1.414 = 45 off set
1.414
Your masters number needs to be displayed on the sign in the state of Texas
Don't go out and buy a fraction calculater , you can get that app on your phone .
I'm a pipe fitter that's child game Rog..
Hard part is when 45s are on their side
Long live metric.
Who is gonna sit there play around with it waste so much time and time =$. By the time somone would calculate 2 offsets like this id be floor above.
Union training is the only way to go. The rest are scabs
yup Plumber Local 78 Los Angeles Plumbers UNION in the house!!!!!!!! Journeyman plumber over 15 years and learned from the best..UA