Out of all the content creators for classic, you and madseason are the most level-headed when it comes to your opinions and ideas. You do a very good job at trying to be the "middle ground". Keep up the good work.
I vastly prefer WillE to madseason for overall content, Madseasons skyscraper sized boner for classic inevitably forms a huge bias that taints his content
How so? I can understand how it served as a catalyst for the acceleration of metagaming, as well as making that data easily accessible by everyone. However, on the other hand it enables private servers to prosper, and by proxy providing players with the option of playing the version of the game they are the most fond of. And disproved the "You think you do but you don't" theory, for better or worse.
@@andreasnorberg8285 No, online games make you compete with others. Information accesible to everyone , makes it so you have to go with the efficient meta or fall behind. That pressure to keep up is not there in singleplayer.
More like its popularity, while in the past it was people who had more money and time to play and were (in general) smarter and more chill, the more accessible internet was the more idiots and douchebags were introduced to online gaming and eventually partially ruined it.
People: CLASSIC IS SO EASY DUDE, YOU CAN LITERALLY DO RAIDS WITH HALF OF THE SQUAD also people: you don't have zandalarii buff man, how do you wanna kill that boss with out zandalarii buff
Minmaxing is fine, it's just a lot of the minmaxers are insufferable douchebags. If you're a chilled out player who likes to collect world buffs and do big numbers, all good.
Our guild used to be a friendly casual guild that cleared MC/ZG/AQ20 on reset. We were doing BWL like every week as well with a partner guild. Then the partner guild started doing Naxx, and suddenly all Boomies and Ret Paladins were forbidden to roll on upgrades. Every good piece of loot from my guilds raid nights were funneled to fuel our partner guilds progress into Naxxramas. Some people spoke out. Saying 'It's not fair that we cater our raids to 5-7 people and let the other 30+ people not progress' Guild Officers: You should be happy to raid. If you don't like it. Leave. Now everyone is leaving the guild.
I still haven’t hit 60 on any of my tunes. Still having the time of my life in classic. Try Harding isn’t my thing. I play wow to escape from life and explore.
Amazing. As long as you're having fun, it's exactly how it should be. Biggest problem is people telling you how to play the game, and not how you're actually playing it
I wish i just leveled slower it still took me months but at max level the game is awful to me i hate raiding i hate pvp there is nothing to do if you don't have a guild of people that are super patient and friendly i am kind of done with classic at this point.
Min max is fine...Classic wow is great because you can play how you want. I’m happy that Classic vanilla is sticking around. My goals are to hit 60 (eventually) and get tier 2 on my hunter. And complete my ancient petrified Leaf quest. Also get my winterspring frost saber. And if I’m lucky get .5 dungeon set on my Druid
I mostly wish there was a wider presence of guilds in between the hyper min/maxers and the zugzug casual. My experience in Classic is you had to pick a side
Sad to say but the problem with inbetween groups is that for the most part anyone putting in some decent effort will grow to resent the people who're just drunk zugzugs having a laugh, so most of the time the casual guilds had some people who were in between originally but those people left for more min/maxy guilds. At least that's my experience.
True, It's sad that you have to choose between getting world buffs and full consumes for every raid or 10 wipes on Raganros every week. I guess a lot of the middle ground players like me who wanted to take classic raiding seriously but didn't want to commit the time and energy that comes with going full min-max were pushed into the former category anyway. That might explain why there are so many people complaining about the meta in classic. Even though in theory the meta should affect very few people.
The thing is, min-maxing always will creep into causal playing without understanding what's it for, and that is for me is what really-really frustrating.
Grats on 100k subs!! It's been a long and strange journey through classic, and 90% if channels have kinda lost their luster. But WILLE always gets a watch no matter the video. Cheers buddy! 👏🍻
Nothing wrong with min-maxing in an rpg, but when it's forced upon the player by others it becomes more of a chore, like grinding out world buffs just clear a boss 60 seconds faster and get your lame score posted on some websites that no one will give a shit about it
@@friedrice7 On classic they want you to have pre raid bis and world buffs for molten core on retail its different because the game is more streamlined min maxing is not as big of a deal.
@@TheDankFarmer at that point WoW stops feeling like a MMORPG and more like a PvE Arena game. Unless there's new story elements in mythic raid I couldn't care less
I quit playing classic, because most of our guild put in alot of effort (even though is was not mandatory) with buffs/class stacking etc.. and started giving people shit that couldnt or didnt want to put in the same effort.
too bad? i enjoy being with other min maxxed people being the best we can be, i shouldnt be shunned for not grouping with someone who isnt min maxxing.
@@keenzo1998 but at the same time should minmaxing be the “casual” experience? The most common one? There are hardcore aspects of every game but very few have minmaxing as a standard
That why the casuals need to stay with casuals. Mixing with hardcore players is okay as long as everyone is cool with it but it always good to make sure everyone understands.
If you dont take the time and energy to be good at what u are doing and be proper part of the group, then you dont really deserve to be part of that group at all. Why bunch of people who took their time and energy to be good at what they doing and beat content properly,have to carry your ass and gear you up, even if your contribution to the group is minimal? Also it makes a huge difference usually. Well geared,buffed and experienced player can do 5,6x times more dps/hps than a casual player with no preperation,gear and experience. Its not like the difference is small.
I'm knowledgeable about my class and boss mechanics. I'm a good player. I don't f with world buffs. I didn't go out of my way for world buffs unless I was tanking patchwerk and even then that was because I couldn't afford the flask. But I'm consistently one of the better performers in raids. Min maxing is something people who suck at the game do to try and make it easier. Why learn mechanics when you can buff up and zerg down the boss? That's the basic mindset. I'd rather play the game then let the game play me.
It's more the case that everything is about the meta. Even in many "casual" raiding guilds meta is required if you want to play. The playerbase today feels like it relies too heavily on guides/deep dives/theory crafting/etc made by min/max players. The player mindset is that everything not on icyveins, wowhead, or by some p-server 15-year theory crafter is wrong and therefore bad. Hell, I got flack from a couple randoms when I wasn't doing earth bind kiting on my shaman while leveling. It was annoying and tedious to track swing timers and kite around on random mobs. I'm an orc. Just let me hit the damn thing with my axe please.
I personally don't mind if people play hardcore semi hardcore casual or extremely casual. What I do care about is playstyles being extremely detrimental to the game. World buffs griefing is something that should have never existed leading to a playerbase getting extremely toxic. Phase 2 where it took an hour to go to BRM to start the dungeon cause of world pvp should have been addressed as well. Mage boosting / botting and gdkp combined makes the game pay to win. At first I don't see anything wrong with mage boosting. You pay gold you farmed hard for to speed up leveling to save time. The issue is that leveling is part of the game and by everyone adapting to such a playstyle you make the game unplayable for casuals wanting to quest together or do dungeons. In phase 5 and 6 it was nearly impossible to get a group together due to the excessive mage boosting. Botting is self explanatory why it's bad and gdkp is bad cause all the gold traffic that is obtained from unethical or detrimental ways get now spend on rare gear. Cause all the gold is in gdkp's you're kinda forced to run a few in order to withstand the economic inflation on the server. However people only want to invite those who pump or buy with insanely deep pockets. There is no room for the middle player and in general it creates apathy between players. In itself gdkp is fine but if you combine it with botting/ mage boosting/ gold buyers it makes for an unsightly experience. In all these scenarios it's players taking advantage of a situation that isn't moderated by blizzard well. I've played many games and many franchises and wow classic is the worse when it comes to bot management when it is so fucking obvious but they barely care. Mage boosting relies on an exploit that was never intended to be part of the game. You can't convince me that blizzard intended mages to pull 500 mobs at once in Maraudon while others just afk at the entrance gaining levels not playing the game. It's in a player nature to min max the game especially a game that has been out for ages and therefore the casual side becomes far less appealing, but if nothing is addressed it just makes for a miserable experience. I've played a ton of classic, I boosted and have been boosted myself, I played both hardcore and casual raiding, I've done proper leveling, I've played the game pretty much every way it could have been played and in the end I can say it wasn't worth it and I had rather invested in playing something else.
The problem isn't that people are minmaxing, its not something new and has been around for awhile. The problem is that it has become the standard. There was a time when this kind of knowledge came at a price, the internet was still young and limited. Literally guides to "fast leveling" and "top specs" were actually Sold for Money. Plenty of people valued this kind of gameplay but it wasn't expected for everyone to know every square inch of the game and the class they played. The wealth of information we have today and how easy it is to access makes people expect you to already know it. Now it has been normalized to gatekeep parts of the game for simply not playing at peak performance and i think its due to many factors. The modern gaming community is extremely different than it was 15 years ago, and this kind of attitude about it isn't isolated to just WoW. Ontop of that, this mindset was amplified by the private server community in an environment where the bulk of which were these toxic jaded people whom played this content repeatedly for years. They thrived on this kind of mentality because there was no other way to have fun with it for them. Plus the modern versions of the game are built around attracting the largest spectrum of players. Appealing to anyone and everyone it can while putting the original MMORPG gameplay in the backseat. Which the modern game is focused on instant gratification, minimal playtime, and maximum efficiency. It's isn't going away anytime soon, and will require a dramatic portion of the population to reject minmaxing as a requirement instead of something to chase at the very top end.
I definitely like having fun in a game (I already have a job), which is why I started having issues in WoD due to the ring's grind (I was never on par with other raid members, even if I always did my fair share of HPS nonetheless). It worsened in Legion and I ultimately stopped caring in BFA, which led me to drop competitive raiding altogether and, eventually, unsub at the start of Legion (as soon as got to 60 and saw the Nth power grind ahead of me). At the same time, I played Classic during BFA but I refused to do more than logging in time for Onyxia's buff and I certainly never ground my ass off to purchase flasks or other extremely expensive items. Again, I pulled my weight up to Naxxramas and nobody complained but, rest assured, I would have quit Classic as well if I had to log in for hours just to farm gold for consumables.
0:20 this is a strawman. As "that guy" myself, this isn't the argument at all. I don't discount howfun it is for THEM to minmax, it's the effect the culture has on everyone else. The prot paladins in vanilla, or feral druids... The people playing it as an RPG. It's a subtle bias that the player base introduces into the game where it isn't needed, especially given the content difficulty. The only argument against that point and for minmaxing culture is "no one wants to waste time". But then again those same people spend days farming world buffs and gold for consums..
Wille, someone made a similar comment, but I gotta second it. You really do give a good level-headed perspective. It's so good hearing "the only people who care are the hardcore-casuals". These are thoughts I'm happy to have other people being told.
What means very good in your mind? I have never seen an actual real good player, who is fine with playing on super low ratings or being stuck at bosses forever, because he or she is "not being serious". Being good requires a certain amount of seriousness tbh otherwise you will not even get to that point. There is a difference between absolute tryhard and serious
@@chocrikir655 nah, I’ve been a very mechanically-sound WoW player for over a decade now, playing with the same group of people pvp/pve.. we log on, finish all new high-end content inside 2 months (2 day schedule) and as for pvp, me and my 2 partners do arenas once a week really ‘chillfully’ until we reach the cap for gladiator (which 90% of people still dont have) and call it a season. Honestly 0 sweat 0 tryhard.
WillE, in the end it all comes down to Gearscore and people remembering what that community atmosphere was like. People remember when every raid and even lots of heroics said, "no, you're not allowed to have any fun until you meet this arbitrary number the community came up with by itself" when it was far easier content than TBC. And I know some people will say "you didn't HAVE to use Gearscore" and the answer is yes, yes you fucking did because it was so ingrained in people's minds that that was the reality of Wrath. Even the most casual pugs had a GS requirement, it was just a low one. It's something that everyone seemed to have agreed was cancerous for the game and was glad it was gone in Cata, but then people on Wrath pservers just keep on using it and I guarantee Wrath Classic will too. It's not about "these people aren't having fun", it's about "these people didn't let us have fun because we didn't match up to their arbitrary standard in a videogame"
Hell, there were plenty of times when people forming groups had GS requirements that EXCEEDED the gear you'd get from the raid itself. It's toxic, and I hate things like that.
@@WolfpiperFL I generally don't like the word toxic because it's overused to hell and back by overly sensitive people, but I'll fully agree it was cancerous to the game and the community excising that tumor after Wrath was over was the best thing for the health of the game we did. Really, all it came down to is "but if we don't have X amount of GS then we might possibly somehow have issues in the dungeon/raid". Even though unless you were doing Alone in the Darkness, Heartbroken, Firefight, or 3 drakes before Ulduar's release, the content in Wrath just wasn't hard enough to justify the elitism"
I think part of why people might be griping is that so many things require social elements in MMOs. In raids and dungeons, you need other players to fill other roles, and you might not get to be picked for the role you want, like a tank druid stuck on healing, or a person that likes the concept of PvP and either getting wiped instantly or not being challenged. I think that's part of what's causing the friction.
Your so right about the hardcore-casual thing. The real toxicity doesn't happen in the high-end or the low-end, its right in the middle. People in high end raiding guilds and people in mess-around guilds are surrounded by the same types of players. There's less toxicity because there's mission alignment - if you're in a high power raiding guild, everyone understands the expectations and requirements because they accepted them when they joined. Same for a super casual guild, everyone understands the expectations because generally they're very low. Its the middle, when you have a guild a split of these two groups that you get toxicity, because they have very different expectations and goals. They key to success in classic is finding a group of people with similar goals, and then not worrying about what other people are doing.
The key is to find people who play like you, and play with them. Hardcore players get annoyed by the casuals not paying attention and not using common sense and casuals get annoyed by hardcore players yelling at them for pulling for the tank and not hitting the skull marker. There's really no wrong way to play, you just have to find the right people to play with.
Plenty of casuals use common sense and attack skull markers, though. Hardcore players get annoyed by people not minmaxing every conceivable thing and not playing 30+ hours a week.
@@batman1776 tbf I'm a causal and I hate when some dps pulls first intentionally no matter my role at that too. Let the tank be the tank if he needs your help pulling he'll ask you.
I agree with you, but sadly in classic, it is tough to find medium ground raiding guilds. Finding one that is 'ok' progress but without the elitist attitudes use to be easy 15+ years ago, but not it is mostly serious mindsets.
@@batman1776 agreed, I like having a solid raid spec, having most of my consumes, and world buffed, but I also can't really be expected to play40 hours a week, have multiple characters at 60 with every profession, set up warlocks and specified areas, and do 5 raids a week.
I don't care if ppl min/max or are casual.. play how ever you have the most fun. What drives me nuts, absolutely crazy, is ppl that buy/sell boosts. My experience with boosters over these many years is ppl that don't know how to play their toons and ppl that only care about themselves. I won't even allow sellers or buyers of boosts in my guild. Yes they can play how they want but I don't want anything to do with those players. I'll play with a min/maxer or casual anyday!
"No, I don't think the owerworld will be playable in the least". The main reason I won't play without fresh servers. I am serious, I will sub as soon as there is one.
@@chryomadzz4360 The idea is that it will disperse players across more zones because people are having to level from 1 first rather than having a flood in Hellfire right out the gate. It would also reduce the amount of initial gold saturating the market from gold sellers. If they went fresh, they'd need to block transfers in for a while to make it work.
@@WolfpiperFL hmm i see, altho the majority of people would still boost it would indeed reduce the numbers in Hellfire. Personally i'll prob just wait a few days before i start lvling in Hellfire as most people would have buggered off by then. and i'm absolutely not going to kill my experience by doing boring dungeons 18 times each
Fun and fulfillment arent always in parallel. Just like grinding other pursuits like getting fit or learning a language, its hard and often painful to master but seeing growth and results is satisfying in the long run
It's all good if YOU want to min-max your own character, but when people are enforcing it on to other gamers, then it's gone too far, and that's what has been happening since the beginning of the classic experience.
One thing I have learned for myself that with many kinds of games, there is not necessarily a wrong or right way to play it - but there are playstyles that are incompatible with each other. The best thing you can do is just find players who are compatible with your playstile, roll with them and just don't mind those that are incompatible.
I do like to be prepared for raiding and know what is needed to be done for each boss encounter and have world buffs but is it really needed to clear content? Of course not but it’s an option if you wanna be chasing world buffs all day and who cares what class you play as all classes are viable and don’t let anyone tell you differently. You do what makes you happy and enjoy the game at the end of the day.
I minmaxed during Classic up until phase 2 and I regret it. Ended up quitting because I was just not having fun. I'm not going to make that mistake in BC. Casual all the way baby! Great vid as always
Well, we need more guilds in the between. Both extremes are bad and i dont wanna be a part of any of them. I do wanna do end game content but i dont feel like running around for world buffs, farming gold for flask and whatever, like i have another job to do in game as well. End game content is easily doable without minmaxing the hell out of it.
There nothing wrong with wanting to play optimely for your guild do to well. But I've seen it be an obsession to where people admit to buying gold and then lobby heavily for GDKP runs in 20 mans to get select items first.
At the end of the day, the biggest problem is if you're enjoying the way you play, and if you're trying to tell *other people* how to play. If you enjoy min/maxing and genuinely have fun chasing numbers, the most efficient methods and BIS items, cool. If you enjoy taking your time leveling through content in the most inefficient means possible but you're having fun exploring, questing, fishing, whatever, cool. But if you start giving other people grief because they're not playing the game "right" as you see it, or you're forcing yourself to do content you don't really want to because somebody else told you it's the "right" way to play, that's when you need to start reconsidering what you're doing. Everyone is here to have fun. Everyone might not have fun the same way. And that's totally ok.
Part of me really wants to keep raiding but i cant be arsed with the sweats wanting all the buffs and resistances. And part of me wants to raid casually however i know i'd dislike it because less buffs, likely worse players, more wipes etc. There really is no middle ground in classic. Wrath strikes the perfect balance for raiding imo and i can't wait for it to come out so i can relive my paladin/mage days of Wrath.
I've been playing the game on and off since the start. Finally got wife to try it like 6 months ago. She is now hooked. We have dranei shamans named Beauty and TheBeast, and just enjoying the game. :)
I have some strange goals in BC.. I may raid here and there as a means to an end (have the gear required) but overall i want to spend phase 1 farming gold in order to gear up the most insane twinks ever for when the twink meta emerges. I also want to get a name as the most helpful paladin booster on Arugal Horde. I'll be doing pay what you can afford exp boosts where i keep the valuable boe blues etc. That's how i plan on recreating to the best of my ability a good bc experience.
For brownbois, it goes double. Zugmeister's Raid leader say "Buff is big rage". Zuggmeister press many button, many time. Zuggmeister brain go bing-bing-bing with pressing clackety-clack keyboard. Buffs make Zuggmeister happy.
What gets me is when people doggedly refuse to deviate from the path of least resistance then complain about how boring it is. Like this drums thing--if you don't want to use the drums then DON'T. Noone's got a gun to your head. You're doing it because you CHOOSE to do it (or, equivalently, because you choose to be in a raid that requires it).
Common topic in XIV too. Both WoW and FFXIV have very large casual playerbases to the point of having what I call "toxic casual" playerbases, actively unapologetically bringing down the groups they get in and hating people that care about doing their best to the point of being antagonistic.
Alot of the pre catch up gear will be clutch for people who wishes to not suffer the 1st day and just go in the dungeons and the idea here is to have good enough gear for normal dungeons and then even some gear can beat heroic gear but not likely. If your like me you will slow the pain with life and game by taking advantages to gear up before dieing over and over in dungeons but if you ok with that then play on.
4:36 That's why my mage raided as FFB in wrath in spite of arcane blast spam being the super-duper-uber-meta that every mage played and every non-mage knew was the meta at the time because it was so universal.
Respect. I've listened to a lot of pods and your the only guy I've heard mention hardcore casuals. Limited time does not mean a casual playstyle and attitude to the game.
i play the game alot so if i didnt minmax what else would i do in the game? thing with nolifers is that if they dont tryhard then they wont have as much to do in the game.
I raided in Classic with a guild of hardcore elitists . We cleared MC week 2; I healed as a 57 shadow priest. By week 3, Our guild required full raid buffs or you got benched, i'm talking flask, elixirs, world buffs, food, potions, runes, etc. FOR MC. I was about to be benched because we had a lot of priests and I was the worst geared (missing 4 pieces of pre-bis by week 3), but they needed a shadow priest so I went that and had to re-grind my pre-bis. I quit classic when phase 2 hit, something about spending a minimum of 25+ hours a week farming gold to pay for everything, to shave off 35 minutes from our run, plus having 4 horde guilds sitting in BRM who would wipe the raid, invalidating the world buffs anyways. I never even got a single piece of loot in raid because the warlock officer wouldn't let me roll on anything. I love classic but MC was boring because of min/max culture, the post updated gear / talents / spells, and a lot of the high end players are terrible people.
"Hardcore casual is a real demographic of the game" this so much. I was part of a guild where exactly half tried to be best they can, ofc we have not cleared Naxx. I think the issue is when casual people get dragged into raids and both sides drive each other insane.
I was gonna say I’m not a min-maxer...but I did do WBs, did raid log, did shoot for bis, did bring consumes, did grind Bloodsail and am now grinding goblin rep the hard way...Maybe I am a min-maxer...
I do finding myself souring on the idea of arena, just because of how much other people have played it already. Ive never played a single game of arena. If I play all day everyday from launch day til WOTLK I'll be 15 years behind any of the top players.
@dasda dasdas it's not that I think most people will be good, but a lot of people played tbc arena and every expansion after that until they get a sense for how to play it. The top x% will be on another level that a new player will only reach if they're exceptionally gifted. There will still be plenty of fun to be had casually, but I'm highly competitive. Much more so than my aptitude is for any individual game, so I need to pick and choose what I invest my time into.
Some people don't understand that for others, part of the fun for them is playing their absolute best and will adopt at least most if not all of the necessary strategies.
Our guild have a month calendar for Naxx : 2 weeks without world buffs, 1 week full world buffs and 1 week "come as you are". And guess what ? Most of the guildies prefere weeks without world buffs, because we clear Naxx anyway and it's more fun. (more challenge, no buff cap, no fear of dying => we play better)
Because it is fun to compete but it is not fun to do all the legwork to get all the buffs and the sweat involved in other forms like all using nifty stopwatch to jump the puddles.
raid class slots, best in slot items, optimal skill rotations, and everyone in a rush to skip as much content in the game just to get to the point they can stop 'fun' and start being OPTIMAL like it was some kind of weekly work performance eval.
people dont have a problem with people min/maxing their own characters, the problem is that min/maxers all try to min/max the entire raid/bg. every single person in the raid or even entire guild needs to play the game the way *they* want. so the comparison is not equal. i mean theres barely any raid guilds that dont turn into min/maxers because even a single person that throws a fit over someone not having world buffs will affect the whole raid to where they force people to play like the complainers to "reduce drama" since people who are more casual arent as likely to complain.
I find it an issue as I won't do a dungeon or raid unless I feel "prepared" so I will spend more time researching and getting ready than actually playing the game.
having transitioned from "casual" to a "min-max" guilds I know that min-maxing 100% killed the fun for me. Parses, unlimited consumables, wbuffs... fuck that shit, it has become a chore. I had so muh more fun when I was doing raids more casually
from what i have seen from multiple MMOs minmaxing at the end game isn't getting rid of the fun as that's how the game was made when you start doing the hard versions of the end game you need to minmax to an extent to even pass the first boss
Damn, 45 min Naxxramas run sounds sick! Some people are really crazy. :D I understand trying to be the best you can be at max lvl. Nobody likes when people are dragging their feet, letting others do the heavy lifting. But when your friend Bob tries to tell you how to minmax in Redridge that's when I tune out.
The hardest thing when not having or not wanting to invest too much time in the game is to find a "casual" guild who still at least have a decent level of gameplay. Most of those guild are full of person who can't follow any strat or just go zugzug mode , making every raid a nightmare. On the other hand you have "casual" guild who still require 3 to 4 raiding night .. but still are full of zugzug player tho.. That mixed with the difficulty of finding a guild with raiding hour that match your schedule.. that damn hard "Easiest" way being to pug, but it's like gabbling everytime to have decent group. And in the long run , playing alone like that make it hard to stick
My brain tingled when you said "Getting raid buffs makes big numbers on screen which activates neuron thingy to make happy" 😊 lol i know what you mean bro
I agree with you so much, speedrunners keep to themselves for 99% of their gametime. The people that go around being annoying are semi-hardcore guild players in my experience. And casuals just do their own thing, to each their own. Casual raids with no stakes are also fun.
The thing I love about TBC and will love about TBC classic is there’s SO. MUCH. TO. DO. So many reputation grinds, dailies to keep you occupied, the zones are fun as fuck to level in making alts more enjoyable to level. The min maxers set the tone in classic in a way I didn’t care for but that’s only because raiding was one of the only end game activities. The min-max crowd won’t bother me as much in TBC because I’ll be too busy picking mushrooms for Sporeggar to get that cute fucking tabard
Im a hardcore casual who started in BC but never made it to shatt before Wrath came out. I didnt really understand how MMOs worked despite playing on one for about a year. So i plan to enjoy the crazy goings on out in the world and check out Outland zones and Shatt at their full glory. I doubt if i go into very many dungeons or raids but ill still have fun like i did in classic when i can get time away from regular wow and what ever floats you boat with raiding , pvp dungeons or what ever i always say
what's the add on you use for raids to show the whole raid group with their health bars and class colours? the normal just green is annoying can't tell who's in from what group when buffing
The reason why I min/max is to try balance out the people who don't. Don't get me wrong I know you don't NEED to min/max and I do prefer more casual groups; however, I really hate hearing "we're not gonna make it enrage is next". So whatever I can do to help prog thats what im gonna do (keep in mind I don't really do alts).
Wow is an arms race even if it's not a person's aim to min max to begin. Most people even if casual don't wanna be the guy who gets benched a lot so you compete for raid spots which leads to min maxing.
It might be a nightmare balancing, but I’m glad Retail has flexible raids outside of Mythic raiding. Our guild has never had to bench people yet and it’s fluctuate between 29-13 this expansion. No pugs needed here.
I love having a bis list to go for. Outside of that playing however casually is the best way for me. I dont care about speed runs or topping dps charts. I mean im a classic hunter lol.
4:00 the problem with that is, that type of play style where everything is optimized becomes the standard for everyone and if you don't like that or want to play that way, good luck getting any places in any raids or any groups together doing anything because the perception is, your playing the game wrong and playing with a player who plays the game wrong can't be enjoyable so....
imo metas are what are keeping this 15 year old game interesting, whether its liking minmaxing or hating it. but, right now, theres a lot of information and a lot of people of different playstyles enjoying the game. it happened to me early on in classic where i found myself in a guild i didnt enjoy. i transferred to another realm with more options and found something i really like. this is the perfect time to enjoy wow classic and tbc and i hope people can be proactive about finding something thats right for them
WillE is correct,the problem is in the in-between, I'll bring you a competitive games ranks as example. The people in bronze/silver know they're casuals and not good at the game so they accept that and have fun regardless The people at the top in diamond/grandmaster have fun BY minmaxing and seeing how fast/high they can get and in the case of competitive,they know the meta is not so stringent,that player skill is important not the character. The problem arises in the middle at gold rank,where people are high enough they get entitled(minmaxer casuals) but they are low enough to not have the game awareness/knowledge to know that the meta is not "do this to win immediately" So they think that if you dont pick meta,you're actively throwing the game and making them lose,and are the most toxic and elitist people without any claim to be so since they're gold rank.
You're right. They should. It's hard when you're playing a multiplayer game as a team. There is a pressure to min/max even in casual raiding guilds in order to down bosses efficiently. It stifles creativity and fun IMO.
I kinda lean towards both sides personally. I raid with full world buffs and consumables, and as an alliance warrior i choose to use a 2hander a lot of the time, because it feels great and is a lot of fun. i avoid some BIS items because i just dont think theyre cool. i some times top the DPS meters in my guild alongside some real pumpers, and some nights i just mess about with my Might of Menethil and have fun. you can do both
How I feel about Min-maxing: Everyone enjoys different things. If you wanna take your time and be casual, do it. If you wanna speedrun and min-max every little aspect of the game, DO IT! Games are meant to be fun. Have fun with them!
Min-maxers don't play games to have fun, they play games to win, and feel accomplished, which is sometimes fun, but often just the grind and misery that accompanies it. The issue is that min/maxers have forced their obnoxiously high standard, and frankly useless standard since clearing content is 100% easier than what they prep for and expect, but i digress... the issue is they force their shit on the rest of the server pop. EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
the world pvp was still based in a game with a social element. sure on occassion you'd get camped. everyone has that story on their pvp server. however it was more of a zone to zone thing. I remember the pvp servers I had played on specifically had a thing where if you saluted or bowed when I high level was riding through that they'd pass you without any beat downs, and that was kinda cool. with the rerelease you had a lot of people that were so use to how modern gaming and mmos are where they kinda just approach it from this disconnected stand point of "I'm just gonna farm some hks " and then proceed to get a group and farm burning steppes and searing gorge flight paths. totally different animals. and not at all like it was 16 years ago. players are a lot more detached from the social element. this is my opinion, and maybe I am wrong, but I felt that was worth noting, because I think people get mad at the old guys that played then almost scoldingly like we all just remember this part of the game with rose colored glasses.
Out of all the content creators for classic, you and madseason are the most level-headed when it comes to your opinions and ideas. You do a very good job at trying to be the "middle ground". Keep up the good work.
Agreed! The two creators I’ve actually subbed to.
I agree but add platinum wow he is pretty chill to
@@hyperactive1728 ahhh I should have specified. Madseason and Wille for topical news/opinion and platinum for enjoyment hahaha love the bloke!
Madseason is fantastic
I vastly prefer WillE to madseason for overall content,
Madseasons skyscraper sized boner for classic inevitably forms a huge bias that taints his content
The irony is that in the end, the internet killed online games.
damn, that hit hard...
How so?
I can understand how it served as a catalyst for the acceleration of metagaming, as well as making that data easily accessible by everyone.
However, on the other hand it enables private servers to prosper, and by proxy providing players with the option of playing the version of the game they are the most fond of.
And disproved the "You think you do but you don't" theory, for better or worse.
@@belph497 information is to accessible. There is no trial and error Just google what you want to know
@@andreasnorberg8285 No, online games make you compete with others. Information accesible to everyone , makes it so you have to go with the efficient meta or fall behind. That pressure to keep up is not there in singleplayer.
More like its popularity, while in the past it was people who had more money and time to play and were (in general) smarter and more chill, the more accessible internet was the more idiots and douchebags were introduced to online gaming and eventually partially ruined it.
People: CLASSIC IS SO EASY DUDE, YOU CAN LITERALLY DO RAIDS WITH HALF OF THE SQUAD
also people: you don't have zandalarii buff man, how do you wanna kill that boss with out zandalarii buff
Minmaxing is fine, it's just a lot of the minmaxers are insufferable douchebags. If you're a chilled out player who likes to collect world buffs and do big numbers, all good.
same goes for the other side tbh
Our guild used to be a friendly casual guild that cleared MC/ZG/AQ20 on reset. We were doing BWL like every week as well with a partner guild. Then the partner guild started doing Naxx, and suddenly all Boomies and Ret Paladins were forbidden to roll on upgrades. Every good piece of loot from my guilds raid nights were funneled to fuel our partner guilds progress into Naxxramas. Some people spoke out. Saying 'It's not fair that we cater our raids to 5-7 people and let the other 30+ people not progress'
Guild Officers: You should be happy to raid. If you don't like it. Leave.
Now everyone is leaving the guild.
WillE stepping up the game on hiding that gnome during intros :o
he's min-maxing the gnome hiding
yeah he is so badass i love him so much man. hell yeah man.
i liked your comment because it was so cool. your wirrukomuu bro.
Gnome power levels have increased after 100k
Blizz pls nerf
I still haven’t hit 60 on any of my tunes. Still having the time of my life in classic. Try Harding isn’t my thing. I play wow to escape from life and explore.
Exactly. People can enjoy the game in different ways. Endgame is not the only game!
Amazing. As long as you're having fun, it's exactly how it should be. Biggest problem is people telling you how to play the game, and not how you're actually playing it
I wish i just leveled slower it still took me months but at max level the game is awful to me i hate raiding i hate pvp there is nothing to do if you don't have a guild of people that are super patient and friendly i am kind of done with classic at this point.
Min max is fine...Classic wow is great because you can play how you want. I’m happy that Classic vanilla is sticking around. My goals are to hit 60 (eventually) and get tier 2 on my hunter. And complete my ancient petrified Leaf quest. Also get my winterspring frost saber. And if I’m lucky get .5 dungeon set on my Druid
That’s how I am too. Nothing wrong with that.
I mostly wish there was a wider presence of guilds in between the hyper min/maxers and the zugzug casual. My experience in Classic is you had to pick a side
Same on the private wotlk server I play on
Sad to say but the problem with inbetween groups is that for the most part anyone putting in some decent effort will grow to resent the people who're just drunk zugzugs having a laugh, so most of the time the casual guilds had some people who were in between originally but those people left for more min/maxy guilds.
At least that's my experience.
Big true, the dones't really care about performance, but still has clean clears is a bit of a unicorn.
True, It's sad that you have to choose between getting world buffs and full consumes for every raid or 10 wipes on Raganros every week. I guess a lot of the middle ground players like me who wanted to take classic raiding seriously but didn't want to commit the time and energy that comes with going full min-max were pushed into the former category anyway. That might explain why there are so many people complaining about the meta in classic. Even though in theory the meta should affect very few people.
I prefer zugzug but still like it when people try, just not crazy min maxing
The thing is, min-maxing always will creep into causal playing without understanding what's it for, and that is for me is what really-really frustrating.
True!
Grats on 100k subs!! It's been a long and strange journey through classic, and 90% if channels have kinda lost their luster. But WILLE always gets a watch no matter the video. Cheers buddy! 👏🍻
Nothing wrong with min-maxing in an rpg, but when it's forced upon the player by others it becomes more of a chore, like grinding out world buffs just clear a boss 60 seconds faster and get your lame score posted on some websites that no one will give a shit about it
TH-cam's: hey guys you should watch all our videos about how to min/max everything.
Also TH-cam's: why are you min/maxing?!
I don't worry about minmax, I do whatever feels in line with my character. Enjoy the game quite a bit!
Same goes for me
Yea but they wont invite you to any groups even for easy content.
@@belstar1128 who be they? I was doing mythic just fine
@@friedrice7 On classic they want you to have pre raid bis and world buffs for molten core on retail its different because the game is more streamlined min maxing is not as big of a deal.
@@TheDankFarmer at that point WoW stops feeling like a MMORPG and more like a PvE Arena game. Unless there's new story elements in mythic raid I couldn't care less
I quit playing classic, because most of our guild put in alot of effort (even though is was not mandatory) with buffs/class stacking etc.. and started giving people shit that couldnt or didnt want to put in the same effort.
I think it's when minmax is the meta and people who don't aren't invited to group or benched for raid
too bad? i enjoy being with other min maxxed people being the best we can be, i shouldnt be shunned for not grouping with someone who isnt min maxxing.
@@keenzo1998 but at the same time should minmaxing be the “casual” experience? The most common one? There are hardcore aspects of every game but very few have minmaxing as a standard
That why the casuals need to stay with casuals. Mixing with hardcore players is okay as long as everyone is cool with it but it always good to make sure everyone understands.
If you dont take the time and energy to be good at what u are doing and be proper part of the group, then you dont really deserve to be part of that group at all. Why bunch of people who took their time and energy to be good at what they doing and beat content properly,have to carry your ass and gear you up, even if your contribution to the group is minimal?
Also it makes a huge difference usually. Well geared,buffed and experienced player can do 5,6x times more dps/hps than a casual player with no preperation,gear and experience. Its not like the difference is small.
@@keenzo1998 "being the best we can be" in a 15 year old game!
Yikes my dude xD
I'm knowledgeable about my class and boss mechanics. I'm a good player. I don't f with world buffs. I didn't go out of my way for world buffs unless I was tanking patchwerk and even then that was because I couldn't afford the flask. But I'm consistently one of the better performers in raids. Min maxing is something people who suck at the game do to try and make it easier. Why learn mechanics when you can buff up and zerg down the boss? That's the basic mindset. I'd rather play the game then let the game play me.
It's more the case that everything is about the meta. Even in many "casual" raiding guilds meta is required if you want to play. The playerbase today feels like it relies too heavily on guides/deep dives/theory crafting/etc made by min/max players. The player mindset is that everything not on icyveins, wowhead, or by some p-server 15-year theory crafter is wrong and therefore bad.
Hell, I got flack from a couple randoms when I wasn't doing earth bind kiting on my shaman while leveling. It was annoying and tedious to track swing timers and kite around on random mobs. I'm an orc. Just let me hit the damn thing with my axe please.
The one thing I've learned from the last 15 years of playing mmorpgs is if the devs don't try and tell you how to have fun, the players damn sure will
I personally don't mind if people play hardcore semi hardcore casual or extremely casual. What I do care about is playstyles being extremely detrimental to the game. World buffs griefing is something that should have never existed leading to a playerbase getting extremely toxic. Phase 2 where it took an hour to go to BRM to start the dungeon cause of world pvp should have been addressed as well. Mage boosting / botting and gdkp combined makes the game pay to win. At first I don't see anything wrong with mage boosting. You pay gold you farmed hard for to speed up leveling to save time. The issue is that leveling is part of the game and by everyone adapting to such a playstyle you make the game unplayable for casuals wanting to quest together or do dungeons. In phase 5 and 6 it was nearly impossible to get a group together due to the excessive mage boosting. Botting is self explanatory why it's bad and gdkp is bad cause all the gold traffic that is obtained from unethical or detrimental ways get now spend on rare gear. Cause all the gold is in gdkp's you're kinda forced to run a few in order to withstand the economic inflation on the server. However people only want to invite those who pump or buy with insanely deep pockets. There is no room for the middle player and in general it creates apathy between players. In itself gdkp is fine but if you combine it with botting/ mage boosting/ gold buyers it makes for an unsightly experience. In all these scenarios it's players taking advantage of a situation that isn't moderated by blizzard well. I've played many games and many franchises and wow classic is the worse when it comes to bot management when it is so fucking obvious but they barely care. Mage boosting relies on an exploit that was never intended to be part of the game. You can't convince me that blizzard intended mages to pull 500 mobs at once in Maraudon while others just afk at the entrance gaining levels not playing the game. It's in a player nature to min max the game especially a game that has been out for ages and therefore the casual side becomes far less appealing, but if nothing is addressed it just makes for a miserable experience. I've played a ton of classic, I boosted and have been boosted myself, I played both hardcore and casual raiding, I've done proper leveling, I've played the game pretty much every way it could have been played and in the end I can say it wasn't worth it and I had rather invested in playing something else.
The problem isn't that people are minmaxing, its not something new and has been around for awhile. The problem is that it has become the standard.
There was a time when this kind of knowledge came at a price, the internet was still young and limited. Literally guides to "fast leveling" and "top specs" were actually Sold for Money. Plenty of people valued this kind of gameplay but it wasn't expected for everyone to know every square inch of the game and the class they played. The wealth of information we have today and how easy it is to access makes people expect you to already know it.
Now it has been normalized to gatekeep parts of the game for simply not playing at peak performance and i think its due to many factors. The modern gaming community is extremely different than it was 15 years ago, and this kind of attitude about it isn't isolated to just WoW. Ontop of that, this mindset was amplified by the private server community in an environment where the bulk of which were these toxic jaded people whom played this content repeatedly for years. They thrived on this kind of mentality because there was no other way to have fun with it for them.
Plus the modern versions of the game are built around attracting the largest spectrum of players. Appealing to anyone and everyone it can while putting the original MMORPG gameplay in the backseat. Which the modern game is focused on instant gratification, minimal playtime, and maximum efficiency.
It's isn't going away anytime soon, and will require a dramatic portion of the population to reject minmaxing as a requirement instead of something to chase at the very top end.
I definitely like having fun in a game (I already have a job), which is why I started having issues in WoD due to the ring's grind (I was never on par with other raid members, even if I always did my fair share of HPS nonetheless). It worsened in Legion and I ultimately stopped caring in BFA, which led me to drop competitive raiding altogether and, eventually, unsub at the start of Legion (as soon as got to 60 and saw the Nth power grind ahead of me).
At the same time, I played Classic during BFA but I refused to do more than logging in time for Onyxia's buff and I certainly never ground my ass off to purchase flasks or other extremely expensive items. Again, I pulled my weight up to Naxxramas and nobody complained but, rest assured, I would have quit Classic as well if I had to log in for hours just to farm gold for consumables.
"it activates the neuron thing that makes happy" well said WillE hahah :D
0:20 this is a strawman.
As "that guy" myself, this isn't the argument at all. I don't discount howfun it is for THEM to minmax, it's the effect the culture has on everyone else. The prot paladins in vanilla, or feral druids... The people playing it as an RPG. It's a subtle bias that the player base introduces into the game where it isn't needed, especially given the content difficulty. The only argument against that point and for minmaxing culture is "no one wants to waste time". But then again those same people spend days farming world buffs and gold for consums..
Gotta get those 99.9 parses and the occasional 5 digit crits to make the dopamin go brrrr for 0.6 sec (:
Legit
Congratulation on the 100 k subs man keep em coming
What was the second clip in his "doing stuff a bit like this" fail montage at 6:42? Went straight over my head.
Mine too!
Fired off a big CD into a grounding totem and looked like he clicked arcane Intel for some reason
I just rewound the video like ten times and I still don't get it
i buffed arcane brilliance mid arena... to assert dominance ofc
Wille, someone made a similar comment, but I gotta second it. You really do give a good level-headed perspective. It's so good hearing "the only people who care are the hardcore-casuals". These are thoughts I'm happy to have other people being told.
Alot of people don’t realize you can be very good at the game without being serious..
What means very good in your mind? I have never seen an actual real good player, who is fine with playing on super low ratings or being stuck at bosses forever, because he or she is "not being serious". Being good requires a certain amount of seriousness tbh otherwise you will not even get to that point. There is a difference between absolute tryhard and serious
@@chocrikir655 Thanks for proving his point.
@@chocrikir655 nah, I’ve been a very mechanically-sound WoW player for over a decade now, playing with the same group of people pvp/pve.. we log on, finish all new high-end content inside 2 months (2 day schedule) and as for pvp, me and my 2 partners do arenas once a week really ‘chillfully’ until we reach the cap for gladiator (which 90% of people still dont have) and call it a season. Honestly 0 sweat 0 tryhard.
@@HbVki Kay now your talking bollocks
@@plummet3860 so ur a person who justifiably tryhards classic? Lol ur whole
mentality is “bullocks”
WillE, in the end it all comes down to Gearscore and people remembering what that community atmosphere was like. People remember when every raid and even lots of heroics said, "no, you're not allowed to have any fun until you meet this arbitrary number the community came up with by itself" when it was far easier content than TBC. And I know some people will say "you didn't HAVE to use Gearscore" and the answer is yes, yes you fucking did because it was so ingrained in people's minds that that was the reality of Wrath. Even the most casual pugs had a GS requirement, it was just a low one. It's something that everyone seemed to have agreed was cancerous for the game and was glad it was gone in Cata, but then people on Wrath pservers just keep on using it and I guarantee Wrath Classic will too. It's not about "these people aren't having fun", it's about "these people didn't let us have fun because we didn't match up to their arbitrary standard in a videogame"
Hell, there were plenty of times when people forming groups had GS requirements that EXCEEDED the gear you'd get from the raid itself. It's toxic, and I hate things like that.
@@WolfpiperFL I generally don't like the word toxic because it's overused to hell and back by overly sensitive people, but I'll fully agree it was cancerous to the game and the community excising that tumor after Wrath was over was the best thing for the health of the game we did.
Really, all it came down to is "but if we don't have X amount of GS then we might possibly somehow have issues in the dungeon/raid". Even though unless you were doing Alone in the Darkness, Heartbroken, Firefight, or 3 drakes before Ulduar's release, the content in Wrath just wasn't hard enough to justify the elitism"
Yea man if i was blizzard i would have never allowed any addons at all.
Topic of this video is amazing man, thanks for reminding the things we know but forget, Im gonna level my dwarf warrior right now :D
Go gnome your not playing it right >.< hehe
I think part of why people might be griping is that so many things require social elements in MMOs. In raids and dungeons, you need other players to fill other roles, and you might not get to be picked for the role you want, like a tank druid stuck on healing, or a person that likes the concept of PvP and either getting wiped instantly or not being challenged. I think that's part of what's causing the friction.
I love how the Meta is managed by 1 button classes who think they're wise for playing an easy spec
Your so right about the hardcore-casual thing. The real toxicity doesn't happen in the high-end or the low-end, its right in the middle. People in high end raiding guilds and people in mess-around guilds are surrounded by the same types of players. There's less toxicity because there's mission alignment - if you're in a high power raiding guild, everyone understands the expectations and requirements because they accepted them when they joined. Same for a super casual guild, everyone understands the expectations because generally they're very low. Its the middle, when you have a guild a split of these two groups that you get toxicity, because they have very different expectations and goals. They key to success in classic is finding a group of people with similar goals, and then not worrying about what other people are doing.
The key is to find people who play like you, and play with them. Hardcore players get annoyed by the casuals not paying attention and not using common sense and casuals get annoyed by hardcore players yelling at them for pulling for the tank and not hitting the skull marker. There's really no wrong way to play, you just have to find the right people to play with.
The issue is trying to find people in between the two extremes.
Plenty of casuals use common sense and attack skull markers, though. Hardcore players get annoyed by people not minmaxing every conceivable thing and not playing 30+ hours a week.
@@batman1776 tbf I'm a causal and I hate when some dps pulls first intentionally no matter my role at that too. Let the tank be the tank if he needs your help pulling he'll ask you.
I agree with you, but sadly in classic, it is tough to find medium ground raiding guilds.
Finding one that is 'ok' progress but without the elitist attitudes use to be easy 15+ years ago, but not it is mostly serious mindsets.
@@batman1776 agreed, I like having a solid raid spec, having most of my consumes, and world buffed, but I also can't really be expected to play40 hours a week, have multiple characters at 60 with every profession, set up warlocks and specified areas, and do 5 raids a week.
I don't care if ppl min/max or are casual.. play how ever you have the most fun. What drives me nuts, absolutely crazy, is ppl that buy/sell boosts. My experience with boosters over these many years is ppl that don't know how to play their toons and ppl that only care about themselves. I won't even allow sellers or buyers of boosts in my guild. Yes they can play how they want but I don't want anything to do with those players. I'll play with a min/maxer or casual anyday!
"No, I don't think the owerworld will be playable in the least".
The main reason I won't play without fresh servers. I am serious, I will sub as soon as there is one.
what makes you think that would fix things?
@@chryomadzz4360 The idea is that it will disperse players across more zones because people are having to level from 1 first rather than having a flood in Hellfire right out the gate. It would also reduce the amount of initial gold saturating the market from gold sellers. If they went fresh, they'd need to block transfers in for a while to make it work.
@@WolfpiperFL hmm i see, altho the majority of people would still boost it would indeed reduce the numbers in Hellfire. Personally i'll prob just wait a few days before i start lvling in Hellfire as most people would have buggered off by then. and i'm absolutely not going to kill my experience by doing boring dungeons 18 times each
@@chryomadzz4360 I’m doing the same.
@@chryomadzz4360 Admittedly, it's a bandaid. But as far as bandaids go, it's a pretty good one. Disperse the playerbase with leveling.
Fun and fulfillment arent always in parallel. Just like grinding other pursuits like getting fit or learning a language, its hard and often painful to master but seeing growth and results is satisfying in the long run
It's all good if YOU want to min-max your own character, but when people are enforcing it on to other gamers, then it's gone too far, and that's what has been happening since the beginning of the classic experience.
Fuckin BANG ON dude.
One thing I have learned for myself that with many kinds of games, there is not necessarily a wrong or right way to play it - but there are playstyles that are incompatible with each other.
The best thing you can do is just find players who are compatible with your playstile, roll with them and just don't mind those that are incompatible.
I do like to be prepared for raiding and know what is needed to be done for each boss encounter and have world buffs but is it really needed to clear content? Of course not but it’s an option if you wanna be chasing world buffs all day and who cares what class you play as all classes are viable and don’t let anyone tell you differently. You do what makes you happy and enjoy the game at the end of the day.
I minmaxed during Classic up until phase 2 and I regret it. Ended up quitting because I was just not having fun. I'm not going to make that mistake in BC. Casual all the way baby! Great vid as always
i hope you’re having the time of your life in TBC man
Just found this Video and the point you make at 4:30 nails it perfectly..
"why are you minmaxing the fun out of the game.."
"but i do already have a dungeon group set up to go on day one"
- insert irritated face.jpg here -
I know lol, I reckon fighting with a dozen people over a scrap of metal or a helboar isn't gonna be great either
Minmaxing just ruined the idea that you should play what YOU enjoy...not what performs the best
Well, we need more guilds in the between. Both extremes are bad and i dont wanna be a part of any of them. I do wanna do end game content but i dont feel like running around for world buffs, farming gold for flask and whatever, like i have another job to do in game as well. End game content is easily doable without minmaxing the hell out of it.
There nothing wrong with wanting to play optimely for your guild do to well. But I've seen it be an obsession to where people admit to buying gold and then lobby heavily for GDKP runs in 20 mans to get select items first.
At the end of the day, the biggest problem is if you're enjoying the way you play, and if you're trying to tell *other people* how to play.
If you enjoy min/maxing and genuinely have fun chasing numbers, the most efficient methods and BIS items, cool. If you enjoy taking your time leveling through content in the most inefficient means possible but you're having fun exploring, questing, fishing, whatever, cool. But if you start giving other people grief because they're not playing the game "right" as you see it, or you're forcing yourself to do content you don't really want to because somebody else told you it's the "right" way to play, that's when you need to start reconsidering what you're doing.
Everyone is here to have fun. Everyone might not have fun the same way. And that's totally ok.
Part of me really wants to keep raiding but i cant be arsed with the sweats wanting all the buffs and resistances.
And part of me wants to raid casually however i know i'd dislike it because less buffs, likely worse players, more wipes etc.
There really is no middle ground in classic.
Wrath strikes the perfect balance for raiding imo and i can't wait for it to come out so i can relive my paladin/mage days of Wrath.
"I just..... buffed the group". Thanks for all the time you put into this !
I like to figure out things on my own, that's part of my fun with the game :)
I've been playing the game on and off since the start. Finally got wife to try it like 6 months ago. She is now hooked. We have dranei shamans named Beauty and TheBeast, and just enjoying the game. :)
It was really hard to find that gnome.
i tell you what it was really fun to eat those reesees cups it was good
I have some strange goals in BC.. I may raid here and there as a means to an end (have the gear required) but overall i want to spend phase 1 farming gold in order to gear up the most insane twinks ever for when the twink meta emerges. I also want to get a name as the most helpful paladin booster on Arugal Horde. I'll be doing pay what you can afford exp boosts where i keep the valuable boe blues etc. That's how i plan on recreating to the best of my ability a good bc experience.
I love your explanation for why you get the buffs. I like number
For brownbois, it goes double.
Zugmeister's Raid leader say "Buff is big rage". Zuggmeister press many button, many time. Zuggmeister brain go bing-bing-bing with pressing clackety-clack keyboard. Buffs make Zuggmeister happy.
@@haldir108 I played an orc warrior so you’re literally speaking my language ❤️
big number good
What gets me is when people doggedly refuse to deviate from the path of least resistance then complain about how boring it is. Like this drums thing--if you don't want to use the drums then DON'T. Noone's got a gun to your head. You're doing it because you CHOOSE to do it (or, equivalently, because you choose to be in a raid that requires it).
I think it’s easy to decide whether to min max or not: if you’re getting paid to play, min max.
Common topic in XIV too. Both WoW and FFXIV have very large casual playerbases to the point of having what I call "toxic casual" playerbases, actively unapologetically bringing down the groups they get in and hating people that care about doing their best to the point of being antagonistic.
Alot of the pre catch up gear will be clutch for people who wishes to not suffer the 1st day and just go in the dungeons and the idea here is to have good enough gear for normal dungeons and then even some gear can beat heroic gear but not likely. If your like me you will slow the pain with life and game by taking advantages to gear up before dieing over and over in dungeons but if you ok with that then play on.
Nice video, I enjoyed listening to it.
4:36 That's why my mage raided as FFB in wrath in spite of arcane blast spam being the super-duper-uber-meta that every mage played and every non-mage knew was the meta at the time because it was so universal.
Yes I'm going to clear as much of the game as I can with my new main for TBC
Respect. I've listened to a lot of pods and your the only guy I've heard mention hardcore casuals. Limited time does not mean a casual playstyle and attitude to the game.
i play the game alot so if i didnt minmax what else would i do in the game? thing with nolifers is that if they dont tryhard then they wont have as much to do in the game.
I raided in Classic with a guild of hardcore elitists . We cleared MC week 2; I healed as a 57 shadow priest. By week 3, Our guild required full raid buffs or you got benched, i'm talking flask, elixirs, world buffs, food, potions, runes, etc. FOR MC. I was about to be benched because we had a lot of priests and I was the worst geared (missing 4 pieces of pre-bis by week 3), but they needed a shadow priest so I went that and had to re-grind my pre-bis. I quit classic when phase 2 hit, something about spending a minimum of 25+ hours a week farming gold to pay for everything, to shave off 35 minutes from our run, plus having 4 horde guilds sitting in BRM who would wipe the raid, invalidating the world buffs anyways. I never even got a single piece of loot in raid because the warlock officer wouldn't let me roll on anything. I love classic but MC was boring because of min/max culture, the post updated gear / talents / spells, and a lot of the high end players are terrible people.
"Hardcore casual is a real demographic of the game" this so much. I was part of a guild where exactly half tried to be best they can, ofc we have not cleared Naxx. I think the issue is when casual people get dragged into raids and both sides drive each other insane.
Hope I'll get to do some dungeons with you willie!
Im way too lazy to minmax but I definitly look up a lot of stuff because failing is never fun to me in a videogame.
I was gonna say I’m not a min-maxer...but I did do WBs, did raid log, did shoot for bis, did bring consumes, did grind Bloodsail and am now grinding goblin rep the hard way...Maybe I am a min-maxer...
Fantastic video! Btw, when does burning crusade exp release? Have the devs mentioned it yet?
I do finding myself souring on the idea of arena, just because of how much other people have played it already. Ive never played a single game of arena. If I play all day everyday from launch day til WOTLK I'll be 15 years behind any of the top players.
@dasda dasdas it's not that I think most people will be good, but a lot of people played tbc arena and every expansion after that until they get a sense for how to play it. The top x% will be on another level that a new player will only reach if they're exceptionally gifted.
There will still be plenty of fun to be had casually, but I'm highly competitive. Much more so than my aptitude is for any individual game, so I need to pick and choose what I invest my time into.
Some people don't understand that for others, part of the fun for them is playing their absolute best and will adopt at least most if not all of the necessary strategies.
Our guild have a month calendar for Naxx : 2 weeks without world buffs, 1 week full world buffs and 1 week "come as you are".
And guess what ? Most of the guildies prefere weeks without world buffs, because we clear Naxx anyway and it's more fun. (more challenge, no buff cap, no fear of dying => we play better)
Only thing I see happening in tbc is people class stacking because it's really the only thing to do since wb meta is gone and drums got nerfed.
Haste pot chugging and how expensive it will be.
Because it is fun to compete but it is not fun to do all the legwork to get all the buffs and the sweat involved in other forms like all using nifty stopwatch to jump the puddles.
please admit the being you are. please bless us with your holy presence. i beg you wille man. you are so cool GODman.
raid class slots, best in slot items, optimal skill rotations, and everyone in a rush to skip as much content in the game just to get to the point they can stop 'fun' and start being OPTIMAL like it was some kind of weekly work performance eval.
people dont have a problem with people min/maxing their own characters, the problem is that min/maxers all try to min/max the entire raid/bg. every single person in the raid or even entire guild needs to play the game the way *they* want. so the comparison is not equal.
i mean theres barely any raid guilds that dont turn into min/maxers because even a single person that throws a fit over someone not having world buffs will affect the whole raid to where they force people to play like the complainers to "reduce drama" since people who are more casual arent as likely to complain.
I find it an issue as I won't do a dungeon or raid unless I feel "prepared" so I will spend more time researching and getting ready than actually playing the game.
having transitioned from "casual" to a "min-max" guilds I know that min-maxing 100% killed the fun for me. Parses, unlimited consumables, wbuffs... fuck that shit, it has become a chore. I had so muh more fun when I was doing raids more casually
from what i have seen from multiple MMOs minmaxing at the end game isn't getting rid of the fun as that's how the game was made when you start doing the hard versions of the end game you need to minmax to an extent to even pass the first boss
the min/max is what makes it fun for me personaly
Damn, 45 min Naxxramas run sounds sick! Some people are really crazy. :D
I understand trying to be the best you can be at max lvl. Nobody likes when people are dragging their feet, letting others do the heavy lifting.
But when your friend Bob tries to tell you how to minmax in Redridge that's when I tune out.
The hardest thing when not having or not wanting to invest too much time in the game is to find a "casual" guild who still at least have a decent level of gameplay. Most of those guild are full of person who can't follow any strat or just go zugzug mode , making every raid a nightmare.
On the other hand you have "casual" guild who still require 3 to 4 raiding night .. but still are full of zugzug player tho..
That mixed with the difficulty of finding a guild with raiding hour that match your schedule.. that damn hard
"Easiest" way being to pug, but it's like gabbling everytime to have decent group. And in the long run , playing alone like that make it hard to stick
My brain tingled when you said "Getting raid buffs makes big numbers on screen which activates neuron thingy to make happy" 😊 lol i know what you mean bro
I agree with you so much, speedrunners keep to themselves for 99% of their gametime. The people that go around being annoying are semi-hardcore guild players in my experience. And casuals just do their own thing, to each their own. Casual raids with no stakes are also fun.
The thing I love about TBC and will love about TBC classic is there’s SO. MUCH. TO. DO. So many reputation grinds, dailies to keep you occupied, the zones are fun as fuck to level in making alts more enjoyable to level. The min maxers set the tone in classic in a way I didn’t care for but that’s only because raiding was one of the only end game activities. The min-max crowd won’t bother me as much in TBC because I’ll be too busy picking mushrooms for Sporeggar to get that cute fucking tabard
Im a hardcore casual who started in BC but never made it to shatt before Wrath came out. I didnt really understand how MMOs worked despite playing on one for about a year. So i plan to enjoy the crazy goings on out in the world and check out Outland zones and Shatt at their full glory. I doubt if i go into very many dungeons or raids but ill still have fun like i did in classic when i can get time away from regular wow and what ever floats you boat with raiding , pvp dungeons or what ever i always say
Grats on 100k
what's the add on you use for raids to show the whole raid group with their health bars and class colours? the normal just green is annoying can't tell who's in from what group when buffing
bud, that's the default raid frames.. there's an option to show class colors in the blizz default settings.
The reason why I min/max is to try balance out the people who don't. Don't get me wrong I know you don't NEED to min/max and I do prefer more casual groups; however, I really hate hearing "we're not gonna make it enrage is next". So whatever I can do to help prog thats what im gonna do (keep in mind I don't really do alts).
Wow is an arms race even if it's not a person's aim to min max to begin. Most people even if casual don't wanna be the guy who gets benched a lot so you compete for raid spots which leads to min maxing.
100%
It might be a nightmare balancing, but I’m glad Retail has flexible raids outside of Mythic raiding. Our guild has never had to bench people yet and it’s fluctuate between 29-13 this expansion. No pugs needed here.
Wait, what’s wrong with Darkshore?
I love having a bis list to go for. Outside of that playing however casually is the best way for me. I dont care about speed runs or topping dps charts. I mean im a classic hunter lol.
4:00 the problem with that is, that type of play style where everything is optimized becomes the standard for everyone and if you don't like that or want to play that way, good luck getting any places in any raids or any groups together doing anything because the perception is, your playing the game wrong and playing with a player who plays the game wrong can't be enjoyable so....
imo metas are what are keeping this 15 year old game interesting, whether its liking minmaxing or hating it. but, right now, theres a lot of information and a lot of people of different playstyles enjoying the game. it happened to me early on in classic where i found myself in a guild i didnt enjoy. i transferred to another realm with more options and found something i really like. this is the perfect time to enjoy wow classic and tbc and i hope people can be proactive about finding something thats right for them
WillE is correct,the problem is in the in-between, I'll bring you a competitive games ranks as example.
The people in bronze/silver know they're casuals and not good at the game so they accept that and have fun regardless
The people at the top in diamond/grandmaster have fun BY minmaxing and seeing how fast/high they can get and in the case of competitive,they know the meta is not so stringent,that player skill is important not the character.
The problem arises in the middle at gold rank,where people are high enough they get entitled(minmaxer casuals) but they are low enough to not have the game awareness/knowledge to know that the meta is not "do this to win immediately"
So they think that if you dont pick meta,you're actively throwing the game and making them lose,and are the most toxic and elitist people without any claim to be so since they're gold rank.
THIS
People really need to stop giving a shit what other people do, the end.
You're right. They should. It's hard when you're playing a multiplayer game as a team. There is a pressure to min/max even in casual raiding guilds in order to down bosses efficiently. It stifles creativity and fun IMO.
I kinda lean towards both sides personally. I raid with full world buffs and consumables, and as an alliance warrior i choose to use a 2hander a lot of the time, because it feels great and is a lot of fun. i avoid some BIS items because i just dont think theyre cool. i some times top the DPS meters in my guild alongside some real pumpers, and some nights i just mess about with my Might of Menethil and have fun. you can do both
dude, i minmax the spot-the-gnome-minigame in your vids aswell
How I feel about Min-maxing: Everyone enjoys different things. If you wanna take your time and be casual, do it. If you wanna speedrun and min-max every little aspect of the game, DO IT! Games are meant to be fun. Have fun with them!
Min-maxers don't play games to have fun, they play games to win, and feel accomplished, which is sometimes fun, but often just the grind and misery that accompanies it. The issue is that min/maxers have forced their obnoxiously high standard, and frankly useless standard since clearing content is 100% easier than what they prep for and expect, but i digress... the issue is they force their shit on the rest of the server pop. EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
the world pvp was still based in a game with a social element. sure on occassion you'd get camped. everyone has that story on their pvp server. however it was more of a zone to zone thing. I remember the pvp servers I had played on specifically had a thing where if you saluted or bowed when I high level was riding through that they'd pass you without any beat downs, and that was kinda cool. with the rerelease you had a lot of people that were so use to how modern gaming and mmos are where they kinda just approach it from this disconnected stand point of "I'm just gonna farm some hks " and then proceed to get a group and farm burning steppes and searing gorge flight paths. totally different animals. and not at all like it was 16 years ago. players are a lot more detached from the social element. this is my opinion, and maybe I am wrong, but I felt that was worth noting, because I think people get mad at the old guys that played then almost scoldingly like we all just remember this part of the game with rose colored glasses.