This is my car. I can’t thank yinz enough for the time and effort that you put into fixing my car! It’s still doing well and I actually trust using the parking brake now! For about 8 months before the brake started to lock on, I was having electrical problems. “Service parking brake”, “Service ABS”, and the seatbelt lights would all start flashing while I was driving. To make it worse the seatbelt dinger would be going off 🤯 Sometimes it would last 5 minutes other times 45 minutes. But when I would take it to the dealer it would be off so they could never diagnose it. But then the brake started locking up. All 3 times I was parked in the same place at work, on a slope, parking brake was not on the second 2 times for sure. I’ve definitely felt the same frustration you felt with this car lol. Again I can’t even express how thankful I am for the work yinz put into this, and for also letting me know about the rotor issue too. Oh and btw sorry about the seat, I’m a tiny person with a tiny car 🚘 😂 Thanks again!!!!
How awesome is this! This may be only the second time I've ever had the actual owner of the car we film a case study on, watch, and comment on a video. May I ask you about the times you had it at the dealer? They must have fixed a few things along the way right? Because those other issues you mentioned, we didn't do anything with those. Also, what exactly was changed by them in order to fix this brake issue? Thanks! I believe that it is possible that I should not have condemned their work and I want to be careful in bashing another shop or tech. Thank you so much! This is a real struggle for our industry in that we all are too quick to bash each other without knowing the full story. Appreciate anything you can contribute. Happy New Year and thanks for commenting!!
It must be the fact that this is a reverse polarity motor that confused me at first because I thought with an output with 0 and 0 on both wires, it would be power side switched circuit. I love the way Paul goes through his process of trouble shooting. Without a doubt his videos and premium site has had a huge effect on me and even thought I am still learning , I wouldn't want to learn from anyone else. Thank you Paul for everything you do for the people around the world. God has definitely put you in my path for a reason. I hope one day to meet you in person.
Just wanted to say thank you for all the comments! A lot of you suggested that testing the motors themselves should have been done. You are not wrong in wanting to do that, but there is some warnings on this. First, if you drive the motor too far, you'll damage the gearing inside. Second if you find a bad motor you still MUST check the driver function in the ABS module! My focus was always on the drivers as there was water and corrosion in that connector which can lead to excessive current and driver failure. Even if that LR motor tested good manually, driver tests should still be carried out. The take away here with the driver testing would be to remember the variables when it comes to actuation of the circuit. (Current flow wasn't right, so the module locked it out). Secondly, there was more than current monitoring going on with these. I proved it on the known good side by a simple disconnect of the connector with the circuit not active (no current). So there IS a bias line here of some type that I should have spent more time on in the end to show it to you. I believe as some of you suggested, that if I would have AC coupled my scope and dropped my voltage and time base, that I would have seen it and I would have seen the difference when my test light was installed, which passed the open circuit test the module does using that bias. Lastly, as a lot of you pointed out, current flow is absolutely being monitored too and I believe it is comparing side to side current as well as the timing of the peaks.
you are right in your with basic thought but when you come up against a circuit that you are not familiar with you have to try from another direction. you have a known good motor so you could try reading the resistance of the good motor and substituting a resistor across the motor connection and resetting. not knowing the current flow you should be able to find that with ohms law and the resistor could then be used with the correct wattage. i have not tried this so i cannot say if this would drive the module for to long causing it to burn out the driver. food for thought. also the circuits are separate in there operation to allow for different wear factors on the brake pads. i dont think you will find any bias voltage on the connections because it is only a power when requested by the parking brake switch type of circuit with the current limit being set by the module to set the torque level and that will be different on each side due to the pad wear. on the citreon c4 there are similar motors but they are a four wire motor which does allow for the esp module to use the motors for the stability module to function. but maybe as on the c4 the motors are the same you could swap them to test motor and circuit integrity. i know the idea of diagnosis is to try and be as fast as possible for the customer but in this case i have found that the voltage test on the motor and circuit integrity to be the fastest way to diagnose this problem. if you prove the motor and the circuit integrity then you have got to have a bad module.
i know that your teaching is to prove a component before firing the parts cannon and i totally agree that is the way to go. but with this circuit i dont think you need to go down the road of looking for some way of proving using ie the multimeter or scope. but yes you are there to teach but i think this is a case of not proving how it works but getting the customer out of the shop pdq i hope i have not offended you in any way but i think the way the program is designed on this car is very poor as far as diagnostics is concerned.but thats fiat and european cars for you lol. its one of them faults thats more trouble than its worth
@@dougytweddle4393 this is 100% not true when you said "you will not find any bias". How do I know that? Because the open circuit code sets IMMEDIATELY when the motor is disconnected during a time when the motor circuit is at rest! (No current flow).
I’m working on a car with no windshield wipers, no abs and no speedometer. Can hardly wait to see what the problem is. I’m betting a bad ground, or positive or possibly a bad module. Hoping it’s not the BCM. Spendy fix if it is. I’ve learned a lot from you and Ivan and Eric O. And others. What you guys do is a real service to others. You guys are my afternoon tv every day. Thanks Dan for what ya do.
Ok, so this one DeoxIT story. My brother owns a 1999 Polaris 4 wheeler. 4 years ago, he was preparing to go to Colorado for an elk hunt. He came to me to help with an ignition switch intermittent problem. He wanted to replace it but time was too short. I sprayed it full of DeoxIT D5, turned the key back and forth about 20 or 30 times, blew it out, did it the second time blew it out again with compressed air and the ignition switch has been working perfectly for 4 years and 2 elk hunting trips to Colorado. Original 23 year old ignition switch! You can't beat that product.
This is why I like the videos you do at your brother's shop. You get to hear the colorful banter between you guys. Like when your brother said, "well, at least they know how to read", 🤣. That's pretty bad though that the other shop replaced those two modules/computers before even doing a simple visual inspection on the parking brake components. That's the first thing I would have done after seeing the codes. The important step of doing a visual inspection cannot be understated. When I went to some automotive training a few years back, the instructor mentioned that about 80% of problems are found by visual inspection. It's the other 20% that can be so fun to figure out.
Really appreciate the lengths you go to figure out operational details, Paul. In the day to day grind, we’re always on the clock. We see that connector, and we call it. We retest after a new one has been installed… but what operational learning takes place for the next one that may be more complex, or less revealing? Nothing, that’s what! So thank you. The time you take for us is time we don’t have in a busy shop, and I personally greatly appreciate it!!✌️
All I gotta say is because of you my most used tool at the shop day to day is a test light. And you know its a good thing when as you follow the video the ideas come into your head on where to go next, and then you say it and try it (like the jumper across). One thing I would have done to rule out the actuators is apply voltage to them and check if they are working, on the brand I do they are good at taking water into the windings and ruining themselves. And while I do that, have an amp clamp off a scope reading what kind of amperage it pulls and hopefully find a bulb to closely match it. I think that would have taken care of the bias voltage, and the integrity of the wires to pass a (I'm guessing 5-15 amp) load. You truly deserve your success on TH-cam, my diagnostic roots come from your videos. Thank you SD.
Thank you Paul and Caleb for another superb diagnostic lesson for us all to learn from! I’m sure these Fiat owners think “I own such a cute car!” for about 18 months, then real life runs over their toes.
Thanks for the video I always enjoy the good ones like this. it was an interesting one to watch the struggle of resetting the ESP system each time a new check needed to be performed. That can be very frustrating. I have not reviewed all of the previous comments so this may have been mentioned already. When the LH caliper was in the suspected faulted state, some additional checks could have been performed. A resistance check across the caliper motor windings could have been performed and compared to the known-good right side motor resistance measurement since the Module was reporting an OPEN circuit condition. Also, a trick I use to check for a hard OPEN circuit condition in wiring to a motor like that is to unplug from the motor, the caliper in this case, and measure the resistance between each wire and chassis ground. So with the vehicle motor circuits powered OFF, measure resistance between pin 1 and ground, then resistance between pin 2 and ground, There is typically some circuit board-level resistance in the k-ohm range inside the module/controller between the caliper motor circuits and the module/controller ground circuit. So each motor wire in the harness should provide some high value resistance to ground if still plugged into the module/controller at the opposite end of the wires. You are essentially measuring down the wire, across the module board resistance to chassis ground. If you see "OL" on either circuit then it is likely an open wire. Of course you would need to compare to the known-good working side to confirm the "OL" condition is not expected. Since the RH caliper circuits were known-good and working, they could have been jumped to the suspect LH caliper to check function of the LH caliper. A voltage source like a power probe also could have been used to cycle the caliper motor to check for proper function. The current used by each caliper when manually cycling them with a power probe could also help detect a weak/failing motor due to a partial open or short in the windings due to corrosion or fatigue. You do great work, always inspiring. Hopefully these additional circuit integrity tricks are found useful by someone. They help me identify wiring issues in vehicles all the time.
Can’t be too careful when dealing with a car multiple shops have had their hands on. You didn’t exceed 50 minutes either. Great job showing how to figure out system with little information provided by the manufacture and not just immediately changing parts. 💪🏻
I'm amazed that something as simple as a parking brake has been made so complicated. Use to work with a lady that paid $600 to have the ebrake module replaced after the hatch gasket leaked and ruined it. Wow, just, wow.
I would recommend that one of the first steps be to activate the actuator using jumpers to make sure it's running freely. Corrosion between the actuator and caliper can jam the motor causing excess current draw and intermittent operation.
Had faced such EPB faults in several Renault Koleos cars. It has same 2 wire system for each side parking brake actuators. The fully open and closed position is detected by the current amperage. And yes to substitute the actuator motor a "21W bulb" should be used. Anything below that will not be triggered by the module. In these models sometimes the position is lost during servicing the brakes (need to put in maintenance mode). So the open/close position could be verified in the data monitor or physically turning the rotor and what I do is manually provide current to the actuators upto a point where they reach the end point, then when both sides get to the same position fix everything back and the system works normally.
I have used DeOxit on any joint that carries a waveform, Audio to Rf to MW since the Nineties. I reach for it as quickly as mechanics reach for brake clean. Waveforms travel on the surface of conductors versus DC traveling through the core. All connectors even in outer space grow nonconductive whiskers. Developed for the Space Shuttle, utilized heavily in the sound reinforcement businessss. I discovered it working on Tube Amps, the right product can take the heat too. Big Fan
Wow cannot believe that system that is just amazing give me an old car with an old style parking brake any damn day of the year Lord have mercy that was crazy man thank you so much for the video greatly appreciated the learning and techniques that you do
I keep a can of DeoxIT D5 in both bays of my shop. It is invaluable. I never go out on an electrical related call without it. I could tell you many stories of electrical connection issues solved with that product. You should consider keeping a can with you at all times. $17.00 on Amazon and worth every penny.
For the incoherent code. I thought it was a special function that wasn’t performed. I thought under the system test you would have to perform assembly check. Talk about frustrating. Thank you for bringing us along
As soon as I find green boogers or water, I fix that issue. Priority 1 for me has to start with a good, fully charged battery. Great video, great information.
Yes. I've noticed discrepancies with pid data and bidirectional controls between scan tools. Mostly working on FCA products. Seems like the snapon does communicate better in my experience overall, out of my collection of tools; topdon smart, autel Im608/MS908. But regardless. Thank you for putting these videos! Always something to learn and get a kick out of! Good work Danner's!
Invalid wheel speed sensor code was there from the start , surely the ABS module needs to know that all wheels have stopped or at least there state before the brake can be applied/ released ??? Everything else is most likely water intrusion from the broken connector ? Also Fiat use an internal tone ring in the wheel bearing for the ABS and they are often put in the wrong way round was a rear wheel bearing replaced ? Incoherent code ? Suspension repairs ? New bolts on the RHR was it ??? Lots of possibilities it would be really great to have all the old repair orders ! Foxwell scan tools do strange stuff as well when scanning. Great content as always Paul and Caleb thanks so much. Good to see something Euro on here as well.
Awesome video and much patience and time well spent getting to the bottom of a difficult issue. It is hard enough to diagnose a vehicle when it is familiar but when it not only is an Odd-ball FIAT (Fix It Again Tony) but to have doubts because of scan tools not working as they should with these cars and you have a real challenge on your hands. It is amazing to me that any manufacturer would use a bias voltage on anything that is that small a value, as corrosion and wear can always find a way to lower your voltage transfer over time. I noticed at 55:13 when you were talking about the De-Ox that it looks like that is a clear inner insulation that was covering half of the wire and I was wondering if that would create a problem as well? Thanks so much to you and Caleb for taking us along for the roller-coaster diag.
great video i liked how you worked through all the problems i know all shops are busy but i agree if the original shop had done a check round they would have found the damaged connector and not have to replace all those parts it may have been a lot simpler and quicker repair also if those parts are replaced under warranty and checked and found to be ok the claim maybe rejected and the shop would have to stand the cost something to to think when calling in job in a dealer great job still learning after all these years
i have just done a similar job on a kia sorrento. and i can say confidently current is monitored through the module . initial key on applying and releasing the epb switch while looking at scan data the module was seeing the command. but after approx 10 seconds it would not see the apply function and only see the release. i could force the motor to work bi directionaly but that was it and it sounded like when a power window reg fails but the motor is still going haha. i took a look at the motor and the inner cable broke so i suppose if the motor had no resistance there would be less current flow that the module is use to seeing thats why i had no operation and codes. sorry for the novel long comment haha love what you guys do and im a big fan god bless
Nice video man. Just an observation: In FCA/Stellantis vehicles is normal when you're connect to the ABS module and the ABS light goes on. Even if you are using the OEM scanner.
Ivan is a big proponent of Deoxit to clean electrical contacts. He uses an aerosol form that appears to me to be more convenient than the paint-on you used in this video. If the connector isn't available from Fiat, I'd run to the scrap yard for one. An expensive trip for the customer, but a more elegant/dependable repair for the customer.
I really liked what you were preaching around 22 minutes in and at the end. It goes back to what I know you've said multiple times before this. Just because you found A problem doesn't mean you found THE problem. Also,, if they put a strong magnet on that ground block extenstion, I call dibs. It's mine because I say so. 😁
Hi Paul/Caleb/Danner. Another great video. I think you should speak to your friend Tommy Wolfe about getting a connector housing and two repair wires for that EPB actuator. It looks exactly like the ones that Volkswagen group use. (Even the same rust/brown colour) I’m sure Tommy will recognise the type of connector. P.S. I think the little silicon seals for the repair wires are separate parts so you’ll need two of those also.
Nice video Paul. I like the problem solving path. It does seem a bit odd to think that something as simple as as a parking brake gets to totally disable a vehicle. Perhaps 1 cable to an equalizer to cables at each rear wheel is not such a bad system after all.
Have you tried a system like that ?, it just introduces more points of failure, a system like this in the video is the "smartest" choice, and it's pretty good on most cars... but the french cars can be a pain in the ass =)
@@mortenmorfar I've tried a few of each. By that I mean repairing them. In my experience the cable systems usually last the life of the vehicle with some adjustments here and there. This fiat was 6 years old. The cables on my 20 year old truck still work well, no module needed. Recall the repair path at the beginning of the video. Yikes! Technology is great, usually.
My guess is that connector was damaged when the wheel was reinstalled. The rim is attached with bolts - not studs, and anyone who has ever bolted one on knows the struggles of trying to support, line up, and balance the wheel while trying to not cross-thread the first bolt. Notice the break in the connector is bent in towards the center of the car, suggesting the wheel leaned in and down onto it, snapping it. The person who installed the wheel was probably not aware it even happened. "He who is without sin ..."
You never disappoint Paul, you are forever Blessed 🙌...you and your son deserve to be...I am thankful for your kindness and forgiveness 🙏 You WILL be a historic person in American history forever; because you're a NATURAL BORN leader, who SETS THE STANDARD. Build...build..build... May God continue to Bless you 🙏 ❤️
I am currently (no pun intended) at 32:43 and I assume Fiat measures the increase in required current flow (maybe a specified ramp) as the motor applies the brakes. That way they COULD know the state of the brake.
Maybe a way of testing the actuators would be to manually apply power and ground to the unplugged actuators in the apply direction. Put a current probe on the wires and compare the two. This would be a good dynamic test because as the brake applies the current will increase. A sticking component or a freewheeling motor on one side would cause a current difference from side to side. If they are both the same it might indicate a good actuator.
I was more concerned with testing the drivers, but you're not wrong in that approach. I'd just argue that driver testing would have still be necessary. Especially if you find that the output (motor) has failed.
Great video Paul. It is a shame that the other shops might have misdiagnosed that fault. I am not making excuses, but in dealerships and chain repair shops the techs are pressured so much to make a call and do a repair with in a time limit. Many shops i have worked in the service advisors or service manager jump on the technician if they don't have an answer within the hour diagnostic time. Also many shops including dealerships are not interested in training techs on advanced diagnostic techniques, so the techs are given jobs that are beyond their skills, especially if they are new in the trade. This might have been the case the prebiouse person who worked on that car, made a call that they thought would most likely fix the fault as they were under the gun to call something. Also many dealerships will call things like modules if the car is under warranty as long as the write up is good and it is approved. Then if the fault remains they will keep throwing things at it until it is fixed. This causes customers to loose faith in the dealerships ones the warranty has expired, not a good practice. But that is also why shops like Danners are a diamond to have and are normally so busy. Once again Paul, thanks for sharing your knowledge, you are a true treasure to this industry as well as guys like you.
Only the best of teachers will reveal their real time process when they don't know what they're doing.😎😎 Guaranteed everyone who watches this will remember it. Deoxit is great stuff. They also make Deoxit gold for gold plated connections.
Nice video and diagnosis. Ivan at PHAD uses de-oxit all the time and seems to have good luck with it. Who’s the Pulp Fiction fan in the family? That has to be one of the funniest movies out there.
hi again i think the system monitors through a resistance check which may be via bias voltage the motors whilst running is also monitored for current (amp draw) when each motor hits the set limit of amps the module cuts power the switch is treated like hand brake lever up to apply down to release i have been told this as i get click happy you were lucky to be able to use the verus edge on a newer fiat as they are going over to secured gateway and the zeus with a subscription will be needed on later cars
hi paul. i did not think of the code setting immedietly. looking from that perspective you are right there should be a bias voltage, so my son in law has one of these cars and i have borrowed it and have it in the workshop. up to now i have not found a bias on this circuit using my pico but i am sticking it out and doing more research. i will return
Thanks! I'm pretty sure that same connectors are on VAG cars rear calipers(Made by TRW). This kind of systems with 2 wires are monitoring curent and in live data it's shown when applying parking brake.
@@ScannerDanner I looked at screenshot and there is “Achieved clamp force for left(right) EPB motor in kNewton and it’s probably calculated out of motor A in end stage. Maybe I’m wrong, but on VW it’s working in that way.
Great video. I thought I saw a procedure for the relearn after the repair. The abs verification test includes a couple steps at about 23 minutes. Could not doing that procedure be the cause of the driver train codes at the end of the video.? Thanks for all the great content.
A good majority of dealer techs now a days are shotgunners. Not many of them want to diagnose anything. I would be checking a module for powers and grounds before condemning it, and they would say, your doing too much. Install good known we have a whole parts department. Smh sad part is, they’re the ones getting all the gravy cause they’re so fast. Yet their comeback ratios are horrible. Love what your doing for the industry Danner. We need to build more respect and professionalism in this industry.
Paul, I have and still work with 480v and 4160v 3 phase electric motors. You should look up art flash protection. Just to see how electricity can jump. Sometimes you need more them just gloves. A good electrical supply company should have gloves. They do need to be tested if you want to protect yourself from a shock. One little hole in the glove is all it takes.
Hey man really enjoyed this video. I just wanted to know something. When you suspected a bad actuator as you were getting the open circuit code. Why didn't you use an ohmmeter and check the terminals of the actuator? And compared to the side that was working? That would rule out more than likely if the actuator was at least electrically open or shorted. And since you would have seen that it probably would have mirrored the operational side more than likely it would be in your connections that was the fault. I know it's easy to play armchair quarterback but just an observation I had throughout the video. I still enjoyed it and I think you're an amazing technician and I really appreciated your thorough and determined diagnostic approach.
I've had success with deoxit, it cleans up green crusties really well in all kinds of nonautomotive electronic devices. I sometimes wonder if the cleaning makes the connection prone to recurrence, by exposing bare metal. But if you get rid of the water, seal it well, hopefully the underlying cause will dealt with.
That’s all I hear is so called mechanics at dealerships aren’t paid to diagnose. Yeats ago I added you a question on one of your videos and ever since I’ve been taking in work because thanks to you Paul I like to diagnose and know why a part failed. So to date I’m running my collision repair shop and I am always swamped with diagnostics and repairs and no… I don’t turn down money
The motors get wet and stick roadside you can remove them with the two Allen bolts then work back and forward with a 12v supply by keep changing the polarity. Re-grease and refit. Works most times. Emergency procedure is to release calliper by turning with a torx socket.
Modern electronics can us tech’s jumping through hoops. And make us second guess all the tests used just because of not knowing about some silly procedure like cycling key’s on & off or disconnecting the scanner 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️ Great video though Paul & Callum 👏👏
You can use a headlamp bulb as a dummy load to draw some current. However this will set the "commanded position not reached" fault, as the module is looking for an increase in current as a result of the pads touching then being forced against the brake disc within a set time. The module cuts power at a set current, so it knows the applied brake force is sufficient. You had this on the first "successful" operation, as the motor had wound back further than it normally would. Second application the pads did touch the disc. On these simple actuators, you can power the motor via a headlamp bulb as a current limiter, to ensure you will not over current or torque and break anything. Because that bias signal is so small, I would be wanting to replace that actuator to avoid comeback - yes the Deoxit restored contact, but did the water get inside? Those EPB actuators aren't cheap, around here it's actually cheaper to get a complete replacement caliper than an OE (TRW) actuator, even outside of the dealer network. I've done a few on VW and their system will keep working on the other side, if the actuator on one side has failed, you still get the codes and warnings of course.
Great video. Just to let you know, the refer to OEM code during a code scan could be a 'ghost' code, these can appear on witech but are nothing to worry about.
Aren't these parking brake actuators almost like a 2 wire blend or mode door actuator? Late 2000s dodge trucks come to mind. Basically it moves the actuator till it reaches the end point and the current spikes? I imagine this car needed to see both stop points of both actuators to clear that initial code?
This is sooooo cool, I can't stop watching and rewatching all your videos! Quick side question, what software does Caleb use to edit them? he's so talented with it 🤣
Nice video. Got me curious With the bias voltage at the actuator.tomorrow I going straight to check not only on the wiring diagram but also at the connectors with a test light on a Mazda to see if the eps system works the same way And see what the bias voltage is present on known good system.also I believe that when you going to perform any work or repair on eps system that involve removing rear calipers you need to put the system on service mode.that’s what I think previous shop dint did it and probably they break the conector and sen the customer to the dealer because is warranty covered.dealer replace abs module? And they don’t see the condition of that conector during diagnostic? Hummmm
Paul that is what happens when you high resistance. I would like to see the wiring diagram for that system. You said you saw the green corrosion on the top side (wire to terminal side) and also on the motor side!
I want to thank you for this amazing video. i had a similar problem at electronic parking brake(renault/kadjar) and l couldn't erase the fault eventhough i checked that actuator was working correctly .after several attempts i could erase the error . something strange about theses electronic systems
The circuit being a 2 wire reverse polarity; I wonder if it has no ground reference so the integrity signal is applied across the pair instead on either wire to ground. When I encountered plug connector conditions, such as this one, I soldered wires to the male pins of the actuator and splice into the harness. The connector is for assembly line purposes.
hi paul just a note as to how these systems work and the easy way to test them.first of all if a fault is detected the abs unit will disable the system to protect it and as you found out it will not let you reset until the fault is cleared and you send it to sleep. the motors you can test first of all by connecting a 12v supply to them and they can be tested to run in forward and reverse but be careful as soon as the motor reaches the end of its travel remove the voltage straight away because the motor is powerful and if left running it will strip the nylon gears inside, be warned. then you have to test for continuity of the wiring at the abs unit and to the caliper and also for no shorts. now hows it work, when you apply the parking brake the motor drives to the park position and a current sensing circuit inside the abs unit senses the current increase when the motor reaches the brake disc due to the motor applying more pressure. this current is a set value in the module so that it holds the brake disk with the desired torque to hold the car stationary.when you release the brake the motor reverses and drives to the off position where the current again senses the off point due to current increase and switches off the motor. after all these checks you can then put the car to sleep and reset the codes.a bit drawn out but it is a protection circuit and is protecting the drivers from over current. hope this helps. oh by the way i live in the uk and we have a lot of these cars and it is a common fault keep up the lessons good content.
A shop I worked at part-time a few years ago that specialized in Dodge trucks introduced me to that Doxit contact enhancer. They used it on the computer connections a lot. Would it have been easier to figure out if you had attached both the left to the right and the right to the left at the same time? We do that on ABS sensors. Thanks for pointing out the O2 sensor problems Dodge has with aftermarket O2s. I switched them to factory sensors and the weird voltage codes went away.
Paul I was thinking why you wouldn't do a resistance check of the motors (basic testing) and if that read the same a battery jump pack would have been useful with an inductive amp clamp and with your sophisticated scope recorder see it visually. You know better than anybody reading component testing most of the time puts our brains at rest and at least for me I know motors in this case are good and then it is a connector or wiring problem ( or the driver faulty ) That scope reading was key to see the condition fault or the traffic on the wire, but as you admitted several times about the greenies corrosion those should have been replaced with new connectors even if you did not have a proper outer connector shell. Loved the video anyway, and what kind of tech are at the dealers that did work on that car with those codes you would immediately go to the motor and even most of the newbies I was around would have caught that. Maybe ray Charles or Stevie Wonder would not just saying. And that is why we get paid the big bucks and rightfully so.
The water was a variable in testing the motor directly to make sure it wasn't shorted. In other words the water and corrosion alone could have been enough to cook a driver and that's why i focused so much in that direction. Someone else else commented on people destroying these my manually energizing. If these are PWM controlled, I could see that.
@@ScannerDanner I would never have thought of a motor being destroyed by a jumper pack testing these types of motors. In general battery booster packs are not as powerful as a regular car battery. By you jumping over to the good side and saw it functioned kinda proved the signal was there, what I thought was weird was reversing the cables did not work right off if I remember correctly but after you erased the codes I think it worked with cycling the key and doing the time out. Just more processes that muddy up repairs and complicate it for really no reason. Yeah I know the reason the manufactures want to squeeze all independents out so all work will come back to dealership and fill their pockets. I realized that on a inside MB door handle they used left handed screws, why? so if you didn't have their literature you would strip out the plastic in the handle. I give you all great credit in fixing these cars without manufacture guidance and engineers helping you. Love your videos. The frustration you get shows the level of concern and how you are going to make sense of it in the end for all to understand too.
Apparently when you manually energize these you have to be careful of the limit as stripping the gears internal can happen. (According to other comments here)
the long drive train code is probably the transmission wiring harness recall/TSB issue. I think a recall was forced from random neutral/stuck in place problems.
Hi, Paul. 1. When you have corrosion like that on terminals, you should measure continuity to the computer first. I left you a comment in the past about this simple method but I'll repeat it: with the DMM on the diode scale, connect + to ground and - to the wire. The DMM should show you a voltage drop of about 0.6V which is the ESD diode inside the computer. Every input and output of a computer has such thing as ESD diode. And, if you see this, the wire reaches the inside of the computer. 2. To me that signal is an oscillator that measures the inductance of the solenoid or motor or whatever that thing is. A bias voltage measures a current drop while an oscillator measures inductance. Manufacturers might have taken this approach to prevent services from using parts that are not certified. A solenoid might have the same DC resistance and mechanical power but different inductance. The computer will block that part from being used. Corrosion will meddle with the oscillator making the computer believe the part is not OEM. 3. "Incoherent state..." means the computer feels the movement of the solenoid using back EMF and does not need a physical switch. But, sometimes, it might lose memory about where the core of the solenoid is. And sets a DTC. 4. The solenoid is not sensitive to + or - as it is commanded in both directions using a so called H bridge. Voltage goes in one direction for one operation and the other direction for the reverse operation. Just my thoughts on this. Cheers!
Great info! Love the diode check idea! I don't remember ever reading that before. Question for you. Why did the test light satisfy the circuit monitoring at rest? The inductance type of test you described, i wouldn't think the test light would pass that test? Thanks!
@@ScannerDanner I have no idea. According to my theory, it shouldn't have happened. I might be wrong in my assumption and that "oscillator" might be just noise. Or, it could be a bug in the software or, also could be a test applied by the computer that revealed an inconsistent result, hence, no further action from the computer. Just theory. I have no idea about the ideas in the automotive domain nowadays.
@@danielmusat597 I still like the theory. I think (as another viewer suggested) that AC coupling that signal and setting my volts to 1 or 2v screen and a faster time base may have revealed that signal
@@ScannerDanner If the theory is correct, that signal wad already AC coupled inside the computer. Hence the amplitude going beyond 0V. You would have seen a simple sinusoid with the correct setup.
Hi Paul! Could it be bias voltage between two wire? You did measure wire to ground but since it is reverse polarity motor I'm thinking none of those wires has steady ground on it. Thanks for great video!
Also you were checking bias voltage with a ground from the battery and looking for positive side bias. I would have tried checking for ground side bias also. Maybe it has a constant ground and the system applies voltage ( positive) side for operation. You know the guys across the pond do some crazy stuff with power and ground.
Danner, liked the video (as always) and the fix. you really got me curios about the contact cleaner you've used - DeoxIT. first time hearing about this product. do you have experience using it, especial with contaminated and corroded connectors?
i work on FCA products and any time you enter the ABS module it will chime the lights on the dash. also ran into issues with these electric parking brake systems they are very finicky and sometimes very hard to clear the codes even with a OE scantool
If you had measured across the brake motor connector with the scope instead of to ground would you have had a better chance to see the pulses that detect the motor? Or are they of very low amplitude due to the low resistance of the motor winding and potentially wanting to check the wiring for a high resistance condition? I know my multi-meter only uses a few 100 milivolts to do resistance checks.
it is possible it was some sort of small AC voltage signal that I was not seeing due to scope settings. I know it was there. I should have went back and looked at that further after making the call. I'm sorry that I didn't. Next time for sure
That is a nice kit from AESwave. My only problem with them is the cost of shipping. Bought another ScannerDanner manual today for a Christmas gift and was grinding teeth when the shipping got added. Lol
@@ScannerDanner USPS Priority Mail to Kentucky was $17.10 The book manual is worth it I can’t deny that. Just hard on the pocketbook. Lol That’s nearly 20% of the item cost.
I am working on a 2021 Chrysler Voyager that also has EPB and when you press the brake switch the a brake light comes on the dash and starts blinking. There is also a message that says service brake system. I scanned the codes and came back with a C10D0 code. What is my 1st step in diagnosing this problem? I have tried going right to the EPB (Electronic Parking Brake) Module but cannot find it anywhere. Any ideas on that as well?
Pretty sure "Incoherent" means that the left and right parking brakes are not in the same state as far as the computer is concerned. One on one off = Incoherent. OR possibly it just can't tell what state one of them is in and so that throws it as well. Mind you, I don't actually _know_ anything, that's just my interpretation of the word as it is usually used.
Somewhat confirmed by the fact that when you did get things communicating again and it could tell what state they were in, it seemed to sort itself out and work correctly.
@@ScannerDanner good video i like the missed plug :D i think alot of the electronic brake issue was the calipers were out of balance with each other from the plug i think when you wind them back it looks at the amp or current draw when it peaks at each end of the stroke when you put it into brake pad replacement service mode just resets them to there home point
This is my car. I can’t thank yinz enough for the time and effort that you put into fixing my car! It’s still doing well and I actually trust using the parking brake now! For about 8 months before the brake started to lock on, I was having electrical problems. “Service parking brake”, “Service ABS”, and the seatbelt lights would all start flashing while I was driving. To make it worse the seatbelt dinger would be going off 🤯 Sometimes it would last 5 minutes other times 45 minutes. But when I would take it to the dealer it would be off so they could never diagnose it. But then the brake started locking up. All 3 times I was parked in the same place at work, on a slope, parking brake was not on the second 2 times for sure. I’ve definitely felt the same frustration you felt with this car lol. Again I can’t even express how thankful I am for the work yinz put into this, and for also letting me know about the rotor issue too. Oh and btw sorry about the seat, I’m a tiny person with a tiny car 🚘 😂 Thanks again!!!!
How awesome is this! This may be only the second time I've ever had the actual owner of the car we film a case study on, watch, and comment on a video.
May I ask you about the times you had it at the dealer? They must have fixed a few things along the way right? Because those other issues you mentioned, we didn't do anything with those.
Also, what exactly was changed by them in order to fix this brake issue? Thanks! I believe that it is possible that I should not have condemned their work and I want to be careful in bashing another shop or tech. Thank you so much! This is a real struggle for our industry in that we all are too quick to bash each other without knowing the full story. Appreciate anything you can contribute. Happy New Year and thanks for commenting!!
It must be the fact that this is a reverse polarity motor that confused me at first because I thought with an output with 0 and 0 on both wires, it would be power side switched circuit. I love the way Paul goes through his process of trouble shooting. Without a doubt his videos and premium site has had a huge effect on me and even thought I am still learning , I wouldn't want to learn from anyone else. Thank you Paul for everything you do for the people around the world. God has definitely put you in my path for a reason. I hope one day to meet you in person.
100% with you on the reverse polarity circuit. And if I had more time, I should have revisited the bias voltage on this circuit. I know it was there!
Just wanted to say thank you for all the comments! A lot of you suggested that testing the motors themselves should have been done. You are not wrong in wanting to do that, but there is some warnings on this. First, if you drive the motor too far, you'll damage the gearing inside. Second if you find a bad motor you still MUST check the driver function in the ABS module! My focus was always on the drivers as there was water and corrosion in that connector which can lead to excessive current and driver failure. Even if that LR motor tested good manually, driver tests should still be carried out.
The take away here with the driver testing would be to remember the variables when it comes to actuation of the circuit. (Current flow wasn't right, so the module locked it out). Secondly, there was more than current monitoring going on with these. I proved it on the known good side by a simple disconnect of the connector with the circuit not active (no current). So there IS a bias line here of some type that I should have spent more time on in the end to show it to you. I believe as some of you suggested, that if I would have AC coupled my scope and dropped my voltage and time base, that I would have seen it and I would have seen the difference when my test light was installed, which passed the open circuit test the module does using that bias.
Lastly, as a lot of you pointed out, current flow is absolutely being monitored too and I believe it is comparing side to side current as well as the timing of the peaks.
you are right in your with basic thought but when you come up against a circuit that you are not familiar with you have to try from another direction. you have a known good motor so you could try reading the resistance of the good motor and substituting a resistor across the motor connection and resetting. not knowing the current flow you should be able to find that with ohms law and the resistor could then be used with the correct wattage. i have not tried this so i cannot say if this would drive the module for to long causing it to burn out the driver. food for thought. also the circuits are separate in there operation to allow for different wear factors on the brake pads. i dont think you will find any bias voltage on the connections because it is only a power when requested by the parking brake switch type of circuit with the current limit being set by the module to set the torque level and that will be different on each side due to the pad wear. on the citreon c4 there are similar motors but they are a four wire motor which does allow for the esp module to use the motors for the stability module to function. but maybe as on the c4 the motors are the same you could swap them to test motor and circuit integrity. i know the idea of diagnosis is to try and be as fast as possible for the customer but in this case i have found that the voltage test on the motor and circuit integrity to be the fastest way to diagnose this problem. if you prove the motor and the circuit integrity then you have got to have a bad module.
i know that your teaching is to prove a component before firing the parts cannon and i totally agree that is the way to go. but with this circuit i dont think you need to go down the road of looking for some way of proving using ie the multimeter or scope. but yes you are there to teach but i think this is a case of not proving how it works but getting the customer out of the shop pdq i hope i have not offended you in any way but i think the way the program is designed on this car is very poor as far as diagnostics is concerned.but thats fiat and european cars for you lol. its one of them faults thats more trouble than its worth
@@dougytweddle4393 this is 100% not true when you said "you will not find any bias". How do I know that? Because the open circuit code sets IMMEDIATELY when the motor is disconnected during a time when the motor circuit is at rest! (No current flow).
I’m working on a car with no windshield wipers, no abs and no speedometer. Can hardly wait to see what the problem is. I’m betting a bad ground, or positive or possibly a bad module. Hoping it’s not the BCM. Spendy fix if it is. I’ve learned a lot from you and Ivan and Eric O. And others. What you guys do is a real service to others. You guys are my afternoon tv every day. Thanks Dan for what ya do.
resistance test on motor wink wink lol
Ok, so this one DeoxIT story. My brother owns a 1999 Polaris 4 wheeler. 4 years ago, he was preparing to go to Colorado for an elk hunt. He came to me to help with an ignition switch intermittent problem. He wanted to replace it but time was too short. I sprayed it full of DeoxIT D5, turned the key back and forth about 20 or 30 times, blew it out, did it the second time blew it out again with compressed air and the ignition switch has been working perfectly for 4 years and 2 elk hunting trips to Colorado. Original 23 year old ignition switch! You can't beat that product.
This is why I like the videos you do at your brother's shop. You get to hear the colorful banter between you guys. Like when your brother said, "well, at least they know how to read", 🤣. That's pretty bad though that the other shop replaced those two modules/computers before even doing a simple visual inspection on the parking brake components. That's the first thing I would have done after seeing the codes. The important step of doing a visual inspection cannot be understated. When I went to some automotive training a few years back, the instructor mentioned that about 80% of problems are found by visual inspection. It's the other 20% that can be so fun to figure out.
Really appreciate the lengths you go to figure out operational details, Paul. In the day to day grind, we’re always on the clock. We see that connector, and we call it. We retest after a new one has been installed… but what operational learning takes place for the next one that may be more complex, or less revealing? Nothing, that’s what! So thank you. The time you take for us is time we don’t have in a busy shop, and I personally greatly appreciate it!!✌️
Thank you Jeremy
All I gotta say is because of you my most used tool at the shop day to day is a test light. And you know its a good thing when as you follow the video the ideas come into your head on where to go next, and then you say it and try it (like the jumper across). One thing I would have done to rule out the actuators is apply voltage to them and check if they are working, on the brand I do they are good at taking water into the windings and ruining themselves. And while I do that, have an amp clamp off a scope reading what kind of amperage it pulls and hopefully find a bulb to closely match it. I think that would have taken care of the bias voltage, and the integrity of the wires to pass a (I'm guessing 5-15 amp) load.
You truly deserve your success on TH-cam, my diagnostic roots come from your videos. Thank you SD.
Such great feedback and comments my friend. Thank you so much. Learning as I film these days.
Thank you Paul and Caleb for another superb diagnostic lesson for us all to learn from! I’m sure these Fiat owners think “I own such a cute car!” for about 18 months, then real life runs over their toes.
Thank you Dave
Thanks for the video I always enjoy the good ones like this. it was an interesting one to watch the struggle of resetting the ESP system each time a new check needed to be performed. That can be very frustrating. I have not reviewed all of the previous comments so this may have been mentioned already. When the LH caliper was in the suspected faulted state, some additional checks could have been performed.
A resistance check across the caliper motor windings could have been performed and compared to the known-good right side motor resistance measurement since the Module was reporting an OPEN circuit condition. Also, a trick I use to check for a hard OPEN circuit condition in wiring to a motor like that is to unplug from the motor, the caliper in this case, and measure the resistance between each wire and chassis ground. So with the vehicle motor circuits powered OFF, measure resistance between pin 1 and ground, then resistance between pin 2 and ground, There is typically some circuit board-level resistance in the k-ohm range inside the module/controller between the caliper motor circuits and the module/controller ground circuit. So each motor wire in the harness should provide some high value resistance to ground if still plugged into the module/controller at the opposite end of the wires. You are essentially measuring down the wire, across the module board resistance to chassis ground. If you see "OL" on either circuit then it is likely an open wire. Of course you would need to compare to the known-good working side to confirm the "OL" condition is not expected.
Since the RH caliper circuits were known-good and working, they could have been jumped to the suspect LH caliper to check function of the LH caliper. A voltage source like a power probe also could have been used to cycle the caliper motor to check for proper function. The current used by each caliper when manually cycling them with a power probe could also help detect a weak/failing motor due to a partial open or short in the windings due to corrosion or fatigue.
You do great work, always inspiring. Hopefully these additional circuit integrity tricks are found useful by someone. They help me identify wiring issues in vehicles all the time.
Wow what a learning curve.Learn something new even retired from the trade
If you need motivation to watch me struggle on this car. Watch from 51:33 to the end, Then come back and watch the process 😉Thank you everyone!
❤️it
Can’t be too careful when dealing with a car multiple shops have had their hands on. You didn’t exceed 50 minutes either. Great job showing how to figure out system with little information provided by the manufacture and not just immediately changing parts. 💪🏻
I'm amazed that something as simple as a parking brake has been made so complicated. Use to work with a lady that paid $600 to have the ebrake module replaced after the hatch gasket leaked and ruined it. Wow, just, wow.
I would recommend that one of the first steps be to activate the actuator using jumpers to make sure it's running freely. Corrosion between the actuator and caliper can jam the motor causing excess current draw and intermittent operation.
No argument there. My focus was primarily the driver function and whether it got fried, which dictated my approach
I do this a lot with solenoids or motors. This way you can (usually) rule out an issue with the component itself. Like window motors
Great diagnosis Paul. I wish all customers saw this to see what the technician has to go through for an electrical code. Thanks for sharing
exactly, thank you! We want to be sure the wiring and module are good before replacing the faulty output.
Had faced such EPB faults in several Renault Koleos cars.
It has same 2 wire system for each side parking brake actuators. The fully open and closed position is detected by the current amperage. And yes to substitute the actuator motor a "21W bulb" should be used. Anything below that will not be triggered by the module.
In these models sometimes the position is lost during servicing the brakes (need to put in maintenance mode). So the open/close position could be verified in the data monitor or physically turning the rotor and what I do is manually provide current to the actuators upto a point where they reach the end point, then when both sides get to the same position fix everything back and the system works normally.
I have used DeOxit on any joint that carries a waveform, Audio to Rf to MW since the Nineties. I reach for it as quickly as mechanics reach for brake clean. Waveforms travel on the surface of conductors versus DC traveling through the core. All connectors even in outer space grow nonconductive whiskers. Developed for the Space Shuttle, utilized heavily in the sound reinforcement businessss. I discovered it working on Tube Amps, the right product can take the heat too. Big Fan
I am BLOWN away by that ground tool you got. That thing is awesome! What a great idea
Wow cannot believe that system that is just amazing give me an old car with an old style parking brake any damn day of the year Lord have mercy that was crazy man thank you so much for the video greatly appreciated the learning and techniques that you do
Way to go Paul. You stuck with it and didn’t give up as easily as most guys. Very methodical approach to solving the problem with the park brakes
thank you!
I keep a can of DeoxIT D5 in both bays of my shop. It is invaluable. I never go out on an electrical related call without it. I could tell you many stories of electrical connection issues solved with that product. You should consider keeping a can with you at all times. $17.00 on Amazon and worth every penny.
For the incoherent code. I thought it was a special function that wasn’t performed. I thought under the system test you would have to perform assembly check.
Talk about frustrating.
Thank you for bringing us along
As soon as I find green boogers or water, I fix that issue. Priority 1 for me has to start with a good, fully charged battery.
Great video, great information.
Hay Danner, I like that determined spirit of yours. Am learning a lot from you guys. keep up the good job. cheers.
thank you Eric, I like that name "determined spirit"
Yes. I've noticed discrepancies with pid data and bidirectional controls between scan tools. Mostly working on FCA products. Seems like the snapon does communicate better in my experience overall, out of my collection of tools; topdon smart, autel Im608/MS908.
But regardless. Thank you for putting these videos! Always something to learn and get a kick out of! Good work Danner's!
Thanks man, hated the long struggle but too many litte tid bits along the way to make more cuts. Appreciate this feedback
Invalid wheel speed sensor code was there from the start , surely the ABS module needs to know that all wheels have stopped or at least there state before the brake can be applied/ released ??? Everything else is most likely water intrusion from the broken connector ? Also Fiat use an internal tone ring in the wheel bearing for the ABS and they are often put in the wrong way round was a rear wheel bearing replaced ? Incoherent code ? Suspension repairs ? New bolts on the RHR was it ??? Lots of possibilities it would be really great to have all the old repair orders ! Foxwell scan tools do strange stuff as well when scanning. Great content as always Paul and Caleb thanks so much. Good to see something Euro on here as well.
Awesome video and much patience and time well spent getting to the bottom of a difficult issue. It is hard enough to diagnose a vehicle when it is familiar but when it not only is an Odd-ball FIAT (Fix It Again Tony) but to have doubts because of scan tools not working as they should with these cars and you have a real challenge on your hands. It is amazing to me that any manufacturer would use a bias voltage on anything that is that small a value, as corrosion and wear can always find a way to lower your voltage transfer over time. I noticed at 55:13 when you were talking about the De-Ox that it looks like that is a clear inner insulation that was covering half of the wire and I was wondering if that would create a problem as well? Thanks so much to you and Caleb for taking us along for the roller-coaster diag.
great video i liked how you worked through all the problems i know all shops are busy but i agree if the original shop had done a check round they would have found the damaged connector and not have to replace all those parts it may have been a lot simpler and quicker repair also if those parts are replaced under warranty and checked and found to be ok the claim maybe rejected and the shop would have to stand the cost something to to think when calling in job in a dealer great job still learning after all these years
i have just done a similar job on a kia sorrento. and i can say confidently current is monitored through the module . initial key on applying and releasing the epb switch while looking at scan data the module was seeing the command. but after approx 10 seconds it would not see the apply function and only see the release. i could force the motor to work bi directionaly but that was it and it sounded like when a power window reg fails but the motor is still going haha. i took a look at the motor and the inner cable broke so i suppose if the motor had no resistance there would be less current flow that the module is use to seeing thats why i had no operation and codes. sorry for the novel long comment haha love what you guys do and im a big fan god bless
It was great watching you learn. It was even better watching you learn using some of the same ideas as me.
Great job again, guys.
thats the best comment yet, thank you man
Nice video man. Just an observation: In FCA/Stellantis vehicles is normal when you're connect to the ABS module and the ABS light goes on. Even if you are using the OEM scanner.
Great info! Thank you
And also lots of vehicles the diagnostic on the abs shuts down over 25mph.
and on vw and audi
aaand on Citroen using OEM Lexia scanner
@@ScannerDanner yes, it's a self test
Ivan is a big proponent of Deoxit to clean electrical contacts. He uses an aerosol form that appears to me to be more convenient than the paint-on you used in this video.
If the connector isn't available from Fiat, I'd run to the scrap yard for one. An expensive trip for the customer, but a more elegant/dependable repair for the customer.
That was a good one Paul, nice recap at the end. Auto repair has become very complex with all the new tech systems.
I will be back for the 2nd half when it is not 5am, thanks Paul.
Got this issue on my car, along with some other issues! FIAT............. very helpful thanks
I really liked what you were preaching around 22 minutes in and at the end. It goes back to what I know you've said multiple times before this. Just because you found A problem doesn't mean you found THE problem. Also,, if they put a strong magnet on that ground block extenstion, I call dibs. It's mine because I say so. 😁
Haha that's be a great addition! Thanks Shaun!
Hi Paul/Caleb/Danner. Another great video. I think you should speak to your friend Tommy Wolfe about getting a connector housing and two repair wires for that EPB actuator. It looks exactly like the ones that Volkswagen group use. (Even the same rust/brown colour) I’m sure Tommy will recognise the type of connector. P.S. I think the little silicon seals for the repair wires are separate parts so you’ll need two of those also.
Nice video Paul. I like the problem solving path. It does seem a bit odd to think that something as simple as as a parking brake gets to totally disable a vehicle. Perhaps 1 cable to an equalizer to cables at each rear wheel is not such a bad system after all.
Have you tried a system like that ?, it just introduces more points of failure, a system like this in the video is the "smartest" choice, and it's pretty good on most cars... but the french cars can be a pain in the ass =)
@@mortenmorfar I've tried a few of each. By that I mean repairing them. In my experience the cable systems usually last the life of the vehicle with some adjustments here and there. This fiat was 6 years old. The cables on my 20 year old truck still work well, no module needed. Recall the repair path at the beginning of the video. Yikes! Technology is great, usually.
Thank you for posting the video one day before my birthday. I find it funny when you couldn't release the parking brake.
thank you for the last 5 minutes Paul.
My guess is that connector was damaged when the wheel was reinstalled. The rim is attached with bolts - not studs, and anyone who has ever bolted one on knows the struggles of trying to support, line up, and balance the wheel while trying to not cross-thread the first bolt. Notice the break in the connector is bent in towards the center of the car, suggesting the wheel leaned in and down onto it, snapping it. The person who installed the wheel was probably not aware it even happened.
"He who is without sin ..."
You never disappoint Paul, you are forever Blessed 🙌...you and your son deserve to be...I am thankful for your kindness and forgiveness 🙏
You WILL be a historic person in American history forever; because you're a NATURAL BORN leader, who SETS THE STANDARD.
Build...build..build...
May God continue to Bless you 🙏 ❤️
Thank you my friend
@@ScannerDanner No thank you, for being a beacon of light for the world.
I am currently (no pun intended) at 32:43 and I assume Fiat measures the increase in required current flow (maybe a specified ramp) as the motor applies the brakes. That way they COULD know the state of the brake.
Agree and it probably compares both sides
I miss parking brake cables☹ Oh the good old days
Outstanding Paul and Caleb & Danner
Maybe a way of testing the actuators would be to manually apply power and ground to the unplugged actuators in the apply direction. Put a current probe on the wires and compare the two. This would be a good dynamic test because as the brake applies the current will increase. A sticking component or a freewheeling motor on one side would cause a current difference from side to side. If they are both the same it might indicate a good actuator.
I was more concerned with testing the drivers, but you're not wrong in that approach. I'd just argue that driver testing would have still be necessary. Especially if you find that the output (motor) has failed.
Great video Paul. It is a shame that the other shops might have misdiagnosed that fault. I am not making excuses, but in dealerships and chain repair shops the techs are pressured so much to make a call and do a repair with in a time limit. Many shops i have worked in the service advisors or service manager jump on the technician if they don't have an answer within the hour diagnostic time. Also many shops including dealerships are not interested in training techs on advanced diagnostic techniques, so the techs are given jobs that are beyond their skills, especially if they are new in the trade. This might have been the case the prebiouse person who worked on that car, made a call that they thought would most likely fix the fault as they were under the gun to call something. Also many dealerships will call things like modules if the car is under warranty as long as the write up is good and it is approved. Then if the fault remains they will keep throwing things at it until it is fixed. This causes customers to loose faith in the dealerships ones the warranty has expired, not a good practice. But that is also why shops like Danners are a diamond to have and are normally so busy. Once again Paul, thanks for sharing your knowledge, you are a true treasure to this industry as well as guys like you.
Only the best of teachers will reveal their real time process when they don't know what they're doing.😎😎 Guaranteed everyone who watches this will remember it.
Deoxit is great stuff. They also make Deoxit gold for gold plated connections.
Thank you so much. It's hard to film yourself not knowing what your doing lol
Appreciate your take on it so much
Nice video and diagnosis. Ivan at PHAD uses de-oxit all the time and seems to have good luck with it.
Who’s the Pulp Fiction fan in the family? That has to be one of the funniest movies out there.
hi again i think the system monitors through a resistance check which may be via bias voltage the motors whilst running is also monitored for current (amp draw) when each motor hits the set limit of amps the module cuts power the switch is treated like hand brake lever up to apply down to release i have been told this as i get click happy you were lucky to be able to use the verus edge on a newer fiat as they are going over to secured gateway and the zeus with a subscription will be needed on later cars
hi paul. i did not think of the code setting immedietly. looking from that perspective you are right there should be a bias voltage, so my son in law has one of these cars and i have borrowed it and have it in the workshop. up to now i have not found a bias on this circuit using my pico but i am sticking it out and doing more research. i will return
Anxiously waiting to see what you find! Wish I would have spent more time on mine on this part.
Thanks! I'm pretty sure that same connectors are on VAG cars rear calipers(Made by TRW). This kind of systems with 2 wires are monitoring curent and in live data it's shown when applying parking brake.
I didn't notice a current data pid! That would have been super helpful. Maybe I missed it? Thanks!
@@ScannerDanner I looked at screenshot and there is “Achieved clamp force for left(right) EPB motor in kNewton and it’s probably calculated out of motor A in end stage. Maybe I’m wrong, but on VW it’s working in that way.
@@garaza24 ill blame unfamiliarity of the system 😉
Thank you
Great video. I thought I saw a procedure for the relearn after the repair. The abs verification test includes a couple steps at about 23 minutes. Could not doing that procedure be the cause of the driver train codes at the end of the video.?
Thanks for all the great content.
A good majority of dealer techs now a days are shotgunners. Not many of them want to diagnose anything. I would be checking a module for powers and grounds before condemning it, and they would say, your doing too much. Install good known we have a whole parts department. Smh sad part is, they’re the ones getting all the gravy cause they’re so fast. Yet their comeback ratios are horrible. Love what your doing for the industry Danner. We need to build more respect and professionalism in this industry.
Paul, I have and still work with 480v and 4160v 3 phase electric motors. You should look up art flash protection. Just to see how electricity can jump. Sometimes you need more them just gloves. A good electrical supply company should have gloves. They do need to be tested if you want to protect yourself from a shock. One little hole in the glove is all it takes.
Hey man really enjoyed this video. I just wanted to know something. When you suspected a bad actuator as you were getting the open circuit code. Why didn't you use an ohmmeter and check the terminals of the actuator? And compared to the side that was working? That would rule out more than likely if the actuator was at least electrically open or shorted. And since you would have seen that it probably would have mirrored the operational side more than likely it would be in your connections that was the fault. I know it's easy to play armchair quarterback but just an observation I had throughout the video. I still enjoyed it and I think you're an amazing technician and I really appreciated your thorough and determined diagnostic approach.
I've had success with deoxit, it cleans up green crusties really well in all kinds of nonautomotive electronic devices. I sometimes wonder if the cleaning makes the connection prone to recurrence, by exposing bare metal. But if you get rid of the water, seal it well, hopefully the underlying cause will dealt with.
Enjoyed the video and great information thank you Paul.
That’s all I hear is so called mechanics at dealerships aren’t paid to diagnose. Yeats ago I added you a question on one of your videos and ever since I’ve been taking in work because thanks to you Paul I like to diagnose and know why a part failed. So to date I’m running my collision repair shop and I am always swamped with diagnostics and repairs and no… I don’t turn down money
That's awesome! Thank you so much
The motors get wet and stick roadside you can remove them with the two Allen bolts then work back and forward with a 12v supply by keep changing the polarity. Re-grease and refit. Works most times. Emergency procedure is to release calliper by turning with a torx socket.
2:23 I have launch scan tool and a lot of Mopar when your in abs module with the tiil the abs light turns on
Modern electronics can us tech’s jumping through hoops. And make us second guess all the tests used just because of not knowing about some silly procedure like cycling key’s on & off or disconnecting the scanner 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
Great video though Paul & Callum 👏👏
Caleb 😉
Thank you my friend
@@ScannerDanner 🙏🙏
You can use a headlamp bulb as a dummy load to draw some current. However this will set the "commanded position not reached" fault, as the module is looking for an increase in current as a result of the pads touching then being forced against the brake disc within a set time. The module cuts power at a set current, so it knows the applied brake force is sufficient.
You had this on the first "successful" operation, as the motor had wound back further than it normally would. Second application the pads did touch the disc.
On these simple actuators, you can power the motor via a headlamp bulb as a current limiter, to ensure you will not over current or torque and break anything.
Because that bias signal is so small, I would be wanting to replace that actuator to avoid comeback - yes the Deoxit restored contact, but did the water get inside?
Those EPB actuators aren't cheap, around here it's actually cheaper to get a complete replacement caliper than an OE (TRW) actuator, even outside of the dealer network.
I've done a few on VW and their system will keep working on the other side, if the actuator on one side has failed, you still get the codes and warnings of course.
For sure, the got a caliper and harness connector
Great video.
Just to let you know, the refer to OEM code during a code scan could be a 'ghost' code, these can appear on witech but are nothing to worry about.
I love you my great teacher 😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘
Aren't these parking brake actuators almost like a 2 wire blend or mode door actuator? Late 2000s dodge trucks come to mind. Basically it moves the actuator till it reaches the end point and the current spikes? I imagine this car needed to see both stop points of both actuators to clear that initial code?
Nice edit when you changed scenes to you in the computer room reviewing your video 👌🏽
All Caleb! He is the man, thank you!
This is sooooo cool, I can't stop watching and rewatching all your videos! Quick side question, what software does Caleb use to edit them? he's so talented with it 🤣
Adobe Premier. Thank you!
Nice video. Got me curious
With the bias voltage at the actuator.tomorrow I going straight to check not only on the wiring diagram but also at the connectors with a test light on a Mazda to see if the eps system works the same way
And see what the bias voltage is present on known good system.also I believe that when you going to perform any work or repair on eps system that involve removing rear calipers you need to put the system on service mode.that’s what I think previous shop dint did it and probably they break the conector and sen the customer to the dealer because is warranty covered.dealer replace abs module? And they don’t see the condition of that conector during diagnostic?
Hummmm
Paul that is what happens when you high resistance. I would like to see the wiring diagram for that system. You said you saw the green corrosion on the top side (wire to terminal side) and also on the motor side!
I want to thank you for this amazing video. i had a similar problem at electronic parking brake(renault/kadjar) and l couldn't erase the fault eventhough i checked that actuator was working correctly .after several attempts i could erase the error . something strange about theses electronic systems
Use ground strap on power probe. It’s always good because it hooks directly at battery
awesome video. What did I take away from this one. Visual inspection is key. Before doing anything else, just go look at it...
I hope it was more than that 😉
Thank you so much Danner. It helps a lot.
A really interesting and informative video, many thanks
buen video de frenos de abs y el diagnostico scannerdannar
Great video guys .always the best from you 3
The circuit being a 2 wire reverse polarity; I wonder if it has no ground reference so the integrity signal is applied across the pair instead on either wire to ground. When I encountered plug connector conditions, such as this one, I soldered wires to the male pins of the actuator and splice into the harness. The connector is for assembly line purposes.
I think I measured across the pair and saw the same thing? I can't remember if I did that. Wish I would have spent more time on this part
hi paul just a note as to how these systems work and the easy way to test them.first of all if a fault is detected the abs unit will disable the system to protect it and as you found out it will not let you reset until the fault is cleared and you send it to sleep. the motors you can test first of all by connecting a 12v supply to them and they can be tested to run in forward and reverse but be careful as soon as the motor reaches the end of its travel remove the voltage straight away because the motor is powerful and if left running it will strip the nylon gears inside, be warned. then you have to test for continuity of the wiring at the abs unit and to the caliper and also for no shorts. now hows it work, when you apply the parking brake the motor drives to the park position and a current sensing circuit inside the abs unit senses the current increase when the motor reaches the brake disc due to the motor applying more pressure. this current is a set value in the module so that it holds the brake disk with the desired torque to hold the car stationary.when you release the brake the motor reverses and drives to the off position where the current again senses the off point due to current increase and switches off the motor. after all these checks you can then put the car to sleep and reset the codes.a bit drawn out but it is a protection circuit and is protecting the drivers from over current. hope this helps. oh by the way i live in the uk and we have a lot of these cars and it is a common fault keep up the lessons good content.
oh a bit more you can watch the current draw on your scope if you want to
A shop I worked at part-time a few years ago that specialized in Dodge trucks introduced me to that Doxit contact enhancer. They used it on the computer connections a lot. Would it have been easier to figure out if you had attached both the left to the right and the right to the left at the same time? We do that on ABS sensors.
Thanks for pointing out the O2 sensor problems Dodge has with aftermarket O2s. I switched them to factory sensors and the weird voltage codes went away.
Paul I was thinking why you wouldn't do a resistance check of the motors (basic testing) and if that read the same a battery jump pack would have been useful with an inductive amp clamp and with your sophisticated scope recorder see it visually. You know better than anybody reading component testing most of the time puts our brains at rest and at least for me I know motors in this case are good and then it is a connector or wiring problem ( or the driver faulty ) That scope reading was key to see the condition fault or the traffic on the wire, but as you admitted several times about the greenies corrosion those should have been replaced with new connectors even if you did not have a proper outer connector shell. Loved the video anyway, and what kind of tech are at the dealers that did work on that car with those codes you would immediately go to the motor and even most of the newbies I was around would have caught that. Maybe ray Charles or Stevie Wonder would not just saying. And that is why we get paid the big bucks and rightfully so.
The water was a variable in testing the motor directly to make sure it wasn't shorted.
In other words the water and corrosion alone could have been enough to cook a driver and that's why i focused so much in that direction. Someone else else commented on people destroying these my manually energizing. If these are PWM controlled, I could see that.
@@ScannerDanner I would never have thought of a motor being destroyed by a jumper pack testing these types of motors. In general battery booster packs are not as powerful as a regular car battery. By you jumping over to the good side and saw it functioned kinda proved the signal was there, what I thought was weird was reversing the cables did not work right off if I remember correctly but after you erased the codes I think it worked with cycling the key and doing the time out. Just more processes that muddy up repairs and complicate it for really no reason. Yeah I know the reason the manufactures want to squeeze all independents out so all work will come back to dealership and fill their pockets. I realized that on a inside MB door handle they used left handed screws, why? so if you didn't have their literature you would strip out the plastic in the handle. I give you all great credit in fixing these cars without manufacture guidance and engineers helping you. Love your videos. The frustration you get shows the level of concern and how you are going to make sense of it in the end for all to understand too.
Apparently when you manually energize these you have to be careful of the limit as stripping the gears internal can happen. (According to other comments here)
the long drive train code is probably the transmission wiring harness recall/TSB issue. I think a recall was forced from random neutral/stuck in place problems.
Hi, Paul.
1. When you have corrosion like that on terminals, you should measure continuity to the computer first. I left you a comment in the past about this simple method but I'll repeat it: with the DMM on the diode scale, connect + to ground and - to the wire. The DMM should show you a voltage drop of about 0.6V which is the ESD diode inside the computer. Every input and output of a computer has such thing as ESD diode. And, if you see this, the wire reaches the inside of the computer.
2. To me that signal is an oscillator that measures the inductance of the solenoid or motor or whatever that thing is. A bias voltage measures a current drop while an oscillator measures inductance. Manufacturers might have taken this approach to prevent services from using parts that are not certified. A solenoid might have the same DC resistance and mechanical power but different inductance. The computer will block that part from being used. Corrosion will meddle with the oscillator making the computer believe the part is not OEM.
3. "Incoherent state..." means the computer feels the movement of the solenoid using back EMF and does not need a physical switch. But, sometimes, it might lose memory about where the core of the solenoid is. And sets a DTC.
4. The solenoid is not sensitive to + or - as it is commanded in both directions using a so called H bridge. Voltage goes in one direction for one operation and the other direction for the reverse operation.
Just my thoughts on this.
Cheers!
Great info! Love the diode check idea! I don't remember ever reading that before. Question for you. Why did the test light satisfy the circuit monitoring at rest? The inductance type of test you described, i wouldn't think the test light would pass that test? Thanks!
@@ScannerDanner I have no idea. According to my theory, it shouldn't have happened. I might be wrong in my assumption and that "oscillator" might be just noise. Or, it could be a bug in the software or, also could be a test applied by the computer that revealed an inconsistent result, hence, no further action from the computer. Just theory. I have no idea about the ideas in the automotive domain nowadays.
@@danielmusat597 I still like the theory. I think (as another viewer suggested) that AC coupling that signal and setting my volts to 1 or 2v screen and a faster time base may have revealed that signal
@@ScannerDanner If the theory is correct, that signal wad already AC coupled inside the computer. Hence the amplitude going beyond 0V. You would have seen a simple sinusoid with the correct setup.
@@danielmusat597 one that I bet we could have seen a change on with the test light installed
Maybe the bias is only visible if you ac couple the signal?
Good way to compare the left and right motors is to measure the current with an amp clamp.
I wish I would have played with that more when we were done. That is a possibility. Thanks!
Fiat that's Italian for fix it again Tony!
Fragile "must be Italian" lol
Fragile "must be Italian" lol
Like these electrical type troubleshooting vids!
Even the Mercedes benz original xentry star diagnostic scan tool puts the a.b.s/e.s.p lights on the instrument cluster when its reading that module
Hi Paul! Could it be bias voltage between two wire? You did measure wire to ground but since it is reverse polarity motor I'm thinking none of those wires has steady ground on it. Thanks for great video!
Also you were checking bias voltage with a ground from the battery and looking for positive side bias. I would have tried checking for ground side bias also. Maybe it has a constant ground and the system applies voltage ( positive) side for operation. You know the guys across the pond do some crazy stuff with power and ground.
Ground side bias can be seen when connected to battery ground. I think AC coupling would have revealed what we couldn't see
Danner, liked the video (as always) and the fix. you really got me curios about the contact cleaner you've used - DeoxIT. first time hearing about this product. do you have experience using it, especial with contaminated and corroded connectors?
second time we used it, just the word on the street made us try it and it's absolutely proven itself both times
i work on FCA products and any time you enter the ABS module it will chime the lights on the dash. also ran into issues with these electric parking brake systems they are very finicky and sometimes very hard to clear the codes even with a OE scantool
If you had measured across the brake motor connector with the scope instead of to ground would you have had a better chance to see the pulses that detect the motor? Or are they of very low amplitude due to the low resistance of the motor winding and potentially wanting to check the wiring for a high resistance condition? I know my multi-meter only uses a few 100 milivolts to do resistance checks.
it is possible it was some sort of small AC voltage signal that I was not seeing due to scope settings. I know it was there. I should have went back and looked at that further after making the call. I'm sorry that I didn't. Next time for sure
What I learned is I like your taste in wall art.... great Pulp Fiction movie scene! LOL
that is my son Caleb's wall art lol
Thanks a lot for another great video at European car
That is a nice kit from AESwave. My only problem with them is the cost of shipping. Bought another ScannerDanner manual today for a Christmas gift and was grinding teeth when the shipping got added. Lol
The shipping options should be there using USPS which is around $6 in the lower 48.
@@ScannerDanner USPS Priority Mail to Kentucky was $17.10 The book manual is worth it I can’t deny that. Just hard on the pocketbook. Lol That’s nearly 20% of the item cost.
I am working on a 2021 Chrysler Voyager that also has EPB and when you press the brake switch the a brake light comes on the dash and starts blinking. There is also a message that says service brake system. I scanned the codes and came back with a C10D0 code. What is my 1st step in diagnosing this problem?
I have tried going right to the EPB (Electronic Parking Brake) Module but cannot find it anywhere. Any ideas on that as well?
Pretty sure "Incoherent" means that the left and right parking brakes are not in the same state as far as the computer is concerned. One on one off = Incoherent. OR possibly it just can't tell what state one of them is in and so that throws it as well. Mind you, I don't actually _know_ anything, that's just my interpretation of the word as it is usually used.
Somewhat confirmed by the fact that when you did get things communicating again and it could tell what state they were in, it seemed to sort itself out and work correctly.
Your not wrong, I believe it compares current on each side, and timing of the current
Paul finaly gets in a real car🤣
😂 not!
did you try put the hand brake into its sevice position as if you were changing the pads then take it back out of service mode with the scan tool
I did not
@@ScannerDanner good video i like the missed plug :D i think alot of the electronic brake issue was the calipers were out of balance with each other from the plug i think when you wind them back it looks at the amp or current draw when it peaks at each end of the stroke when you put it into brake pad replacement service mode just resets them to there home point
nice work i learned a lot