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Hating on people's proxies is a major form of gatekeeping, and it says a lot that "top players" are worse about it than TOs. Thanks for your effort to shed some light and provide some guidelines -- I sincerely hope people (who might otherwise be scared to ask) see this and go bravely forward to field their fun models.
One thing to keep in mind is that these things might have more impact in a "top level game" than in casual play between less experienced players. If both players make ten bad plays and one of them is because someone mistook a weird proxy for something different than it is that often doesn't matter much. Pro players might give a lot more thought to the abilities of individual models and make less mistakes in general. As a result misinterpreting a proxy or kit-bash is more likely to turn the tide of a battle in pro play. Of cause you can also find dickheads everywhere, but it makes perfect sense that players who are more invested in the tactical aspects are stricter with stuff like this.
Sure, you could make that argument. But until I see "pro players" advocating for the use of standardized cardboard cutouts instead of plastic miniatures to ensure that no such confusion occurs, I don't buy it. These guys aren't confused by fielding a flamer and calling it a melta, and they aren't confused by the wrong magazine/scope on an Intercessor bolter. They weren't confused by all the Primaris marines kitbashed to be Warpcoven teams prior to the release of Intercession Squad, either. The thing is, proxies and kitbashes (within reason) actually are very welcome. Ask just about any TO, according to this video, and you'll hear, "Yeah, nah, fine! Come on in!" This is a hobby game! But go online -- into FB or here or Discord -- and you see people turning their noses up at new players asking genuine questions about how to hobby. It is gatekeeping, plain and simple. It is extremely discouraging to new players, and it's not okay. We don't exclude others from the game just because they don't hobby the same way we do.
Like you've said - models have to be easily distinguished and identified not just by you, but also a person playing against you. As long as I can look at my opponent team and say - ok, I get it, this is the gunner and this is your demolition specialist, I don't have any problems with proxy or kitbashed models, especially if effort was made to make team look good. As I can see I am even less restrictive than "official" point of view, for I don't really mind different base sizes or model heights - fashion and rule of cool triumph strict measurements for me :)
I was chuckling at the bolter magazine bit at 30 minutes because I snipped all the scopes off my intercession team except one, thinking it would be easier for my opponent to identify the guy with the equipment scope. You know... nice guy me trying to make it as easy as possible for others. Had a dude tell me "naw, thats a stalker pattern gun, you gotta play it as that"
This video really helped clear my head from many doubts about kitbash and conversions. I personally enjoy that aspect of the hobby the most and it totally adds more value to my own experience on the table
I was a bit surprised about the Shrive talon having to have a bolt pistol. The original model has two knives so I modelled my plague marine shrive talon with two knives as well.
I was thinking the same thing. A guy with double knives feels more recognizable than a guy with "one knife and a pistol" as a proxy for the guy with double knives. I ended up putting a holstered pistol on my plague shrivetalon anyway just in case.
Tying directly into your point about the paint job: If I go ahead and proxy or kitbash a team, I obviously want them to be *my team*. Obviously I'm putting my soul into their creation otherwise not only will my opponent have a bad time playing against them but I will have a bad time using them Also those Grey Knights are unacceptable. The muzzles are not even drilled
I'm generally pretty chill, but I also am only casual ATM. My stance is if it looks the same when i squint, any loadout is fine. Your GSC, once painted, will likely be perfectly fine. That said, unless you're explicitly testing loadouts before committing to spending money, I'd recommend not running a power weapon model as having a power fist as that is likely to confuse your opponent and lead them into a tactical mistep regardless of any declaration. Also as a potential project, using the new mk6 marines to build out a fallen legionaires KT might be cool. Matches closer to cypher's model and canonically most renegade/chaos marines don't look that different as they mostly get their gear by looting from loyalists or keeping their gear.
Ahh, but being cheap about it is what needs the definition! I mean, quite legith, if someone just thinks drukhari are cool but wants to play intercession, I wouldn't mind them putting kabs on the right size base and height. Splinter rifles are bolt guns, easy. But others would say that's a no go
@@cocaineandcaviargaming8410 I knew mine wasn't an original idea, or a novel concept, but I actually took blooded and IG bits to convert some cultists I got in a trade
They look great! Brilliant paintjob and I loved the vibrant colours. Then being X-Men and starstriders totally came across, great team (but then I'm someone who in my own tournament allowed someone to run Star Wars Legion droid models as Necrons!)
Personally, I am fine playing with whatever the other person brings. But given preference, having the correct weapons on the model keeps me from needing to do an extra mental step each time I look at a model.
Great video! Only thing I agree with above the casual level you’ve identified is following the theme of a weapon, except in a different way. For example, my Corsair shredder is a death spinner from Warp Spiders because they are statistically similar in the established fluff and 40k rules. So a melta as a flamer sounds silly to me because they’re wildly different weapons. But ultimately that’s just my personal preference for my own models, and having fun and deferring to the TO where appropriate is all that really matters. Listening to people who milk every ounce of competitive edge out of any situation will never lead to a good time in the spirit of the game/hobby, but it’s been interesting to hear the opinions you’ve collected.
I agree they're wildly different, but when there can only possibly be one of them on the board, and they LOOK so similar, it's an easy mental swap. In your example, I think the spinner is a good idea, because nobody even knows which eldar weapons are which, so do what you want xD
This video helped shine some light on a conundrum with my scions. Before I got into KT, I always gave every scion the little blade and grenade bits for that extra ounce of "tacticool." With those pieces now represented equipment in the rules, I've always felt the need to avoid picking bits which contrast with the loadouts I bring. While the players I play with fortunately don't reinforce WYSIWYG down to the letter (helped with me placing a token indicating the scions with the blade or grenades, etc. etc), the rule of thumb having models which have the exact weapons and equipment on hand is what I try to follow when making new scions. Of course, this is subjective on not just player or TO opinion, but rule changes and new sprues introduced by bespoke teams. But them's the brakes.
After watching the whole video, and giving it some thought... I guess I’d say... If you’re going somewhere to play very serious competition, against total strangers, the prudent thing would be to avoid all proxies. Take the models intended to represent the team you’re fielding and make them dead nuts wysiwyg. There’s enough to stay aware of, without having to remember that the lasgun is a Bolter or that the Drukari is a poxwalker with 5+ disgustingly resilient.
I follow the rule of SLMPR (size, longweapon, pistol, melee, pouches, rank) Size = roughly the same Longweapon = model if unit has long range Pistol = model if short ranged Melee = the better in melee, the bigger the weapon modeled Pouches = if model or similar model can have equipment (who knows what's in that pouch, could be grenades, an auspex or an iron halo.) Rank = every model must be distinguishable by rank. General rule: Colour, modeling, trim must be as uniform as possible
Great vid and I think the proxies you showed were all amazing. I've just finished an Eliminator as Phobos Marksman proxy but mine is in the kneeling position, would it need a bit of height on the base? It's only about 3mm shorter 🤷🏻
I saw that on the painting handle when I was round, but honestly, the Eliminators are hardly kneeling. I really wouldn't have an issue with it! It's not going to be any closer to being below a barricade, which is what really matters for visibility.
Great video! I love kitbasing and model my own teams and models making them totally unique and as you said same bases, weapons and sizes, so great your tips to consider!
If you don’t listen to Everybody’s Free (to Wear Sunscreen), at least once a year as a general life reminder, you are really missing out! There is always at least one part of that song that will be relevant to whatever you have going on in your life!!
I hope this guide helps in that case! In my 40k Tsons, I did eactly that, I put some of the mutated torment things and put them on the currect base size for Spawns. I was considering then doing "cultist swarm bases" for the rest of the spawns, so putting the remaining like 5 cultists all on to one base
@@GlassHalfDead Exactly what I was thinking as well, lore wise spawn vary a lot in size. Still planning on getting a spawn box but for the price you can't go wrong with the 3 tormentors for proxies.
As someone who is running a near all proxied Vallahan guard army with 3rd party stuff all over it helps alot with intent and favor. If your going for just fun and not advantage typically people won't care in casual games The dark eldar idea with replacement bolt rifles and chainswords yeah that actually sounds dope as hell. Like a full on Traitor dark eldar army. If that person was also running land raiders and other uniquely SM things i can in my head say "Yup thats a space marine army." With no issues. Also speaking of SM, for them and CSM run custom colors! im being honest its not worth it to comform to any SM chapter. Literally everyone else that plays Xeno or anything that isnt a CSM model or SM model noone knows the lore enough to be upset but god forbid you try and play red ultramarines.
Really Kill Team needs to follow Legion’s example and use visibility templates. That way as long as the base size is good you can do whatever you like on top of it.
@@GlassHalfDead Even that is not necessary. The original Butcher model doesn't even have a holster despite also having a bolt pistol. Literally no one cares about pistols (unless it's some special one like plasma).
This video is really helpful, I was planning on making an ork kommandos kill team out of the beast snaggaz boyz, they're really cool models and I want my kill team to look different to other kill teams
Good on you. Greed workshop wanted to bump up the boxes needed for a full set of weapons, now their weapon rules are just different fighting doctrines for the squad. Serves them right
Great video. I was hoping to hear more about inclusion of non GW parts. Not full replacements, but when is it ok to include an anvil forge head on a GW body? My flgws says 50%, but admittedly that's pretty vaguely interpreted. And what about the canonical antiperspirant land speeder? I know, ask your TO, but you can't check that before creating your force, so being conservative means buying and building a land speeder you don't plan to run.
Those are fair questions! The reason I didn't talk too much about non-GW parts is because outside of a Warhammer store, it's a total non-isse. But if you want to play at a Warhammer store, the official line is that it has to be 100% GW. There are technically rules in there that let it be a certain amount of non-GW and still be legal in a GW, but I wouldn't put any trust in those holding up in the face of a GW employee. And for me, rather annoyingly, but as I've started going to WHW regularly, I have had to not use quite a few 3rd part bits I bought in previous conversion ideas. And all FLGS are completely different, so I can't talk about them at all. The only faction that MIGHT get away with a total 3rd party model is an Ork vehicle, but even then, you'd be relying on your TO not realising it's a conversion.
The only proxies I have currently among my teams is in my Memoirs of Isstvan Deathwatch Mark III Team is I have one of those Power weapon and Bolter regular warrior models where He is armed with a Bolt pistol, and Power sword and I fluffed his fancy pistol as that kind of bolter that those guys come with. I'll always ask my opponent if they are cool with Kenji Yamata's "Archaeotech Bolt Pistol" which counts as the Deathwatch Boltgun, No other model in my roster has a deathwatch boltgun all my regular boltgun guys are stalker patern boltguns because I didn't have any extra Power weapon dudes and I had already built/painted them. My other Proxies are "The Cult of the Ancient Muse" which use Escher Ganger models to represent Chaos cultistss for a compendium chaos team. I have Heavy Stubbers as Heavy stubbers, I have Chem Throwers as Flamers I have the Pistol Dagger chicks as Pistol dagger cultists and Regular gun chicks as the gun cultists. I doubt anyone would have a problem with any of these.
I have a question and it might not be proxy related but. If I want to play Vet guard, can I use catachan jungle fighter or cadia or does it have to be Death Korp of Krieg? This is saying you have the rules for vet guard
You can totally do that, yes. Note that the team is called veteran guard not death korps of krieg despite the models being dkok. I'm pretty sure this was intentional
Proxies have been some of the coolest models I've played against, as long as there is effort and passion behind the idea for the proxies and they are painted well its no big deal i actually prefer to play with folks that are passionate about their hobby and their miniatures
If the bolters aren't wysiwyg they should all be the same type. The Xmen team... I'm not familiar enough with what each character has because no one I know plays them. I was able to immediately tell it was them, but had a hard time figuring out which was which. Your wyrmblade... I'd be fine with, but definitely paint them to be more distinguishable. Unpainted proxies/kitbashes are a hard no for me. I love creativity, but finish the job!
So I'm looking to build a Salamanders team and got the special sprue for them. My problem is that it comes with a cool hand flamer and thunder hammer that I'd love to put on the sergeant's model, but everyone and their mother says to use plasma pistol/chainsword. I can't even legally play flamer/hammer together! Is this a universal enough loadout for me to proxy and bring to a tournament, or am I forced to do it as standard?
I take issue with proxy models from different in-universe factions for other factions, like the Drukhari models as Intercession. As a casual novice, that would break my brain and I don't think I'd have any way of tracking that. I'd play the game as a courtesy in a casual or TO-approved setting, but it wouldn't be "fun." But entirely 3rd party, or of same race type stuff, absolutely 100% have fun. So the Necromunda Ash Wastes as Kroot example I thought was fun! X-men? Hell yeah! Upscaled Grey Knights? Sure! Character model substitutions? Why not? I can understand Pro-Players looking to be more restrictive about it in general. But if you're playing a casual game and someone's just being cartoonishly picky about a proxy/kitbash I've made, I'm just gonna walk away from the game. It's a hobby. These are all toys. None of it truly matters.
I have the question about using proxies for the hierotek plasmacites, instead of the ones in the KT box, using the ones that come in the skorpekh box. Or using a plasmancer instead of an apprentek. At the moment, it's nearly impossible to get a hierotek box and I'd rather buy other necron models anyway. But money is limited and I'd rather buy something that will work on both KT and regular 40k
I'm generally pro proxy. My warpcoven rubrics technically have flamers, but they can technically only have the bolt gun so does it matter? I've also played against someone casually who literally proxied a bunch of space marines and scouts as tyranids because he wanted to try them and didn't have the models. Literally only thing was I periodically had to ask which one was which and it took 5 seconds each time.
Honestly I'm 100% ok playing against paper cutout proxies or anything in casual games. I just don't like modeling for advantage or super super lazy proxies (100% counts-as, no conversion work at all, guy just literally took his guardsmen and decided to play as pathfinders today) or confusing proxies (just remember that this guy has a plasma gun and this guy has a melta gun even though they're both holding bolters ok?) in tournaments. In a tournament I'd be ok playing against any of the teams at the end of your video. The only team I was iffy on was the scions as GSC, but it's still ok.
I'm using a Primaris Captain (the one that came with powersword, stalker bolt rifle and a cape) in a 32mm base as a seargent in my interssecion squad team. Does it count as proxy? Or conversion? Or is it 100% "legal"? D:
Sounds perfect to me! I obviously disagree with the above comment saying it would be okay on a 40mm base, but it's on a 32, so perfect! It counts as a proxy, not a conversion, as you've just taken another model and says it counts as something else, instead of attempting to create an all new model (known as kitbashing or converting). But a Captain is a marine, no one could possibly have an issue with this proxy :)
@Glass Half Dead thanks for your answer. My big questioning came with the definition of a proxy. Specially with the compendium, WD and free teams. Because, the primaris cpt as a model came with the same power armor. The same weapons and power sword. Just with an extra cape and crest. Are players suposed to get the exact model as shown as example in those list? Take the intercession squad granadier. If you take another primaris assault intercessor with some bits of grenades would it be a proxy or conversion? sorry for all this questioning. I know I'm being a total nitpicker.
@@Ixidior So, very very very strictly speaking, yes, you are supposed to play with the exact models that are sold as the primaris team. Anything else, even a lieutenant or captain of the same name, is technically a proxy. The assault grenadier doesn't need to be modelled differently because all they have is grenades and equipment doesn't need to be modelled.
@@GlassHalfDead Still, I would be super happy to play with him even if this has been a 40mm base. Because in all seriousness, I know you people want to win, but on a home-playing casual level 8mm base size difference is just not important.
i personally think in kitbash and in (i forget word but using models as other models) the key thing is sell the idea of what the model and the team represents. for example with case with legionary heavy guner chaincanon and heavy bolter sell the idea of bulky marine with wepon that do many but not that treatning shots when minisle luncher sel the idea of powerful one shot wepon that why i fink players are ok with giving using chaincanon as heavy bolter but no witch luncher all of this beacuse those wepon sell difrent ideas
It's Very Very hard to get models where I live, we don't have it in stock, it's super expensive and I loved karskins, so I changed bases on my scions, put one chest from demolitions krieg on a model and a Mine from the genestelar and the team is ready, i don't think people would not let me play It
i wonder if the high end players dont want/ dont like proxing stuff as they have to think a tiny bit more which they see as a disadvantage to them? and high end table play every little helps
This is 100% the answer, and I agree that if I was in a top tournament, if I'm having to keep in mind additional information about your specific hobby during round 5 on the top table, it COULD, factor into my loss. THEREFORE EVERY TOP PLAYER SHOULD BE PROXYING AS MUCH AS THEIR TO WILL LET THEM FOR THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVANTAGE
You'd think they'd be happy having a dirty scrub who likes hobby or narrative across from them. Stomp the pub scrubs and take your flex, 'pro' player. 😄
I’m not sure that “think a TINY bit more” is a completely fair assessment. If I’m playing a team of vet guard, as vet guard, with all the proper weapon load outs and special equipment indicated with some sort of marker.... and you’re playing a mix of Orcs, Tyranids and Necrons as harlequins with every weapon being a counts-as, you’ve got more than a tiny advantage cognitively. Yes, an extreme example, I’m aware. But if I was a competitive player, who spent a huge amount of money to fly from Brisbane to Las Vegas and stay in an overpriced hotel for 4 or 5 nights.... With the actual goal of WINNING the LVO.... I’d really appreciate a fairly level playing field.
The extreme example you used would be a more to keep track of and a disadvantage but as you said I doubt any TO would allow it, But as the hobby is a huge part of the hobby/game I think you are going to have to deal with some differences
It always surprises me how anal some players are about using the correct figures. I can understand in a highly competitive setting like adepticon but at your local gamestore even if it's a tournament it just seems silly to me. Obviously you shouldn't willfully cheat but I think that is immediately obvious in someone's proxy. Taking your original sister to intercession example, I would be concerned about the different weapons because that could mislead a player but 2mm of height difference? The likelihood that would impact the game is almost non-existent. Ultimately would you rather play a game with someone so dedicated to the game to spend hours customizing every model they own or would you rather not play a game at all because if you're going to nit-pick at every little thing the reality is there aren't enough players out there for you to find the perfect opponent only.
Since they have the same stats, would you guys be cool with autoguns being used as lasguns for a custom vet guard team? The assault rifle look fits the theme of my regiment way more. The exception being if I were to give capacitor packs to a model, then I'd use the right bit
Lasgun -> Autogun would be fine by me if you only take one or the other in your army or make them distinguishable otherwise. But: wouldn't extra mags or so make more sense than a capacitor ? That breaks my immersion way harder x)
So what happens in those instances where the TO allows something and another player refuses to play what you've brought? Are they forfeiting the game because the TO gave it a thumbs up? Or are you forfeiting the game if you don't have the other models? I would think the latter would be something people would be able to abuse.
If you don't like the other guys approved team and you refuse to play you lose lmao, how can you think that any other option would be acceptable? Thats like saying that you don't like the buildings on the boards or you don't like the shirt of the other guy and demand he changes it.
How fussy are TO:s about height? You list it in the video for tournaments but you don't seem to bring it up. Let's say you play a bespokes team with some spicy bases that increases the height by a few milimeters? Or you play Firstborn Marines that are smaller than Primaris Marines?
The general rule is that they are okay with your models being taller (cool bases are encouraged, of course!). If they're smaller, then they should make it very clear that you can't gain an advantage for their height (so, they can't hide visibility behind barricades that wouldn't be able to do it if they were the correct height). It is less important than base size and identifiable weapons :)
When we say correct base size though...are we talking about what GW supplies or what GW thinks they supply? Because I notice regularly that GW bases are bigger than what they say. Such as example the 60mm base being 65mm but declared in product descriptions as 60mm 🤣
As someone trying to learn everything looking different mixed with GW absolute shiet labeling and naming perfect example is “intercessors” & “assault intercessors”. Who in the hell calls things the same…make a damn intercessor box with all bits or called it range kit, close range kit
Honestly, I personally think that keeping the general silhouette and the model type is important. A marine is still a marine, and a human (or a human-sized Xenos like Tau) is still human-sized. That might be a different type of marine - a Chaos Marine on MKVI instead of an Intercessor, but not a Guardsman. 26:00 That's weird, because the original mini doesn't have a pistol modeled either. I would much rather have the proxy being closer to the original model rather than caring about WYSIWYG when even the original devs didn't.
I think the video doesn't represent well how much "lazyness" matters or what that means. No one gives a damn abut the effort you have put in, but it is really tiresome to play against something and have to constantly translate the model to the rules of another model. That's why playing with "counts as" is frowned upon.
I mean, who has intimate knowledge about what every single model for every single faction looks like immediately? Man, I'm constantly going "what, what guy is that? What's he do? What gun is that?" with official sculpts and upgrade kits.
@@Pandapeep I am not talking about intimate knowledge, but a general idea of what most weapons and miniatures are. And plenty of people have that. If you have been involved with warhammer for some years you know, or most people that have been know anyway. Conversions that keep the general idea? Amazing. Using your heavy bolter guy as a plasma gunner? Not so fine. Besides, if the opponent uses a knight for a rook they create a problem, but if you don't know what a rook is the problem is yours
I wouldn't play the person trying to proxy that sister for the white templar. If maybe they proxy a loadout on a unit then I can be okay. Beyond that don't care what the TO says, if you can't be bothered to do the minimum I can't be bothered to game.
32:42 How TF did I miss this in the 4 version of the space marine codexes I’ve purchased?? I was looking for this info and here it is! I don’t impose WYSIWYG on my opponents but I sure as heck like to make sure my own stuff is WYSIWYG coz I’m a wanna-be know-it-all. 🤣🤣🤣 no but seriously… this is what I hate about the game that, as a new player you will build things to what YOU like, only to find out later - once you’re vested in the lore - that all your stuff is “built wrong”. It’s both a welcome discovery moment and an unsettling moment once you actually do meet that one gatekeeper who calls it out.
GW can easily make more money by forcing people to buy new models by adding a WYSIWYG rule to Xth edition: you MUST kitbash/model/buy-our-specific-model to represent each and every unit and their loadout on the table. Just like they added that 3-color “table-top-ready” paint rule. I’m surprised they didn’t milk this, being who they are.
Proxies and conversions in Kill Team should all follow "base, height, identifiable" rule!!!
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Hating on people's proxies is a major form of gatekeeping, and it says a lot that "top players" are worse about it than TOs. Thanks for your effort to shed some light and provide some guidelines -- I sincerely hope people (who might otherwise be scared to ask) see this and go bravely forward to field their fun models.
One thing to keep in mind is that these things might have more impact in a "top level game" than in casual play between less experienced players.
If both players make ten bad plays and one of them is because someone mistook a weird proxy for something different than it is that often doesn't matter much.
Pro players might give a lot more thought to the abilities of individual models and make less mistakes in general.
As a result misinterpreting a proxy or kit-bash is more likely to turn the tide of a battle in pro play.
Of cause you can also find dickheads everywhere, but it makes perfect sense that players who are more invested in the tactical aspects are stricter with stuff like this.
Sure, you could make that argument. But until I see "pro players" advocating for the use of standardized cardboard cutouts instead of plastic miniatures to ensure that no such confusion occurs, I don't buy it. These guys aren't confused by fielding a flamer and calling it a melta, and they aren't confused by the wrong magazine/scope on an Intercessor bolter. They weren't confused by all the Primaris marines kitbashed to be Warpcoven teams prior to the release of Intercession Squad, either.
The thing is, proxies and kitbashes (within reason) actually are very welcome. Ask just about any TO, according to this video, and you'll hear, "Yeah, nah, fine! Come on in!" This is a hobby game!
But go online -- into FB or here or Discord -- and you see people turning their noses up at new players asking genuine questions about how to hobby. It is gatekeeping, plain and simple. It is extremely discouraging to new players, and it's not okay. We don't exclude others from the game just because they don't hobby the same way we do.
@@DERADI30 it's 32 mm minis at three or more feet away. You aren't making snap decisions based on the visuals at that distance, sorry.
As long as it’s not confusing it’s fine people are so weird
Like you've said - models have to be easily distinguished and identified not just by you, but also a person playing against you. As long as I can look at my opponent team and say - ok, I get it, this is the gunner and this is your demolition specialist, I don't have any problems with proxy or kitbashed models, especially if effort was made to make team look good.
As I can see I am even less restrictive than "official" point of view, for I don't really mind different base sizes or model heights - fashion and rule of cool triumph strict measurements for me :)
I was chuckling at the bolter magazine bit at 30 minutes because I snipped all the scopes off my intercession team except one, thinking it would be easier for my opponent to identify the guy with the equipment scope. You know... nice guy me trying to make it as easy as possible for others.
Had a dude tell me "naw, thats a stalker pattern gun, you gotta play it as that"
This video really helped clear my head from many doubts about kitbash and conversions. I personally enjoy that aspect of the hobby the most and it totally adds more value to my own experience on the table
just do it.
I was a bit surprised about the Shrive talon having to have a bolt pistol. The original model has two knives so I modelled my plague marine shrive talon with two knives as well.
I was thinking the same thing. A guy with double knives feels more recognizable than a guy with "one knife and a pistol" as a proxy for the guy with double knives. I ended up putting a holstered pistol on my plague shrivetalon anyway just in case.
Tying directly into your point about the paint job: If I go ahead and proxy or kitbash a team, I obviously want them to be *my team*. Obviously I'm putting my soul into their creation otherwise not only will my opponent have a bad time playing against them but I will have a bad time using them
Also those Grey Knights are unacceptable. The muzzles are not even drilled
HEre's the real heresy... I'm going to paint my barrel holes ;)
I'm generally pretty chill, but I also am only casual ATM. My stance is if it looks the same when i squint, any loadout is fine. Your GSC, once painted, will likely be perfectly fine. That said, unless you're explicitly testing loadouts before committing to spending money, I'd recommend not running a power weapon model as having a power fist as that is likely to confuse your opponent and lead them into a tactical mistep regardless of any declaration.
Also as a potential project, using the new mk6 marines to build out a fallen legionaires KT might be cool. Matches closer to cypher's model and canonically most renegade/chaos marines don't look that different as they mostly get their gear by looting from loyalists or keeping their gear.
I say. Play whatever you want. Just don't willingly try to be cheap about it. I play intercession as all first born.
Ahh, but being cheap about it is what needs the definition! I mean, quite legith, if someone just thinks drukhari are cool but wants to play intercession, I wouldn't mind them putting kabs on the right size base and height. Splinter rifles are bolt guns, easy. But others would say that's a no go
I play eldar wraiths as custods and chaos cultists as blooded 😜
@@cocaineandcaviargaming8410 thats awsome! And seems like the rules for them would fit.
I have Space Wolf firstborn I totally play as Intercession.
@@cocaineandcaviargaming8410 I knew mine wasn't an original idea, or a novel concept, but I actually took blooded and IG bits to convert some cultists I got in a trade
Proxies shouldn't confuse your opponent. Otherwise just crack on and do whatever.
Hi, I'm the owner of the Xmen Elucidians, and I was quite surprised they were here. I hope you like them.
They look great!
They look great! Brilliant paintjob and I loved the vibrant colours. Then being X-Men and starstriders totally came across, great team (but then I'm someone who in my own tournament allowed someone to run Star Wars Legion droid models as Necrons!)
Personally, I am fine playing with whatever the other person brings. But given preference, having the correct weapons on the model keeps me from needing to do an extra mental step each time I look at a model.
I don't buy that at tabletop distance you can really tell much difference in tiny weapons.
Great video! Only thing I agree with above the casual level you’ve identified is following the theme of a weapon, except in a different way. For example, my Corsair shredder is a death spinner from Warp Spiders because they are statistically similar in the established fluff and 40k rules. So a melta as a flamer sounds silly to me because they’re wildly different weapons.
But ultimately that’s just my personal preference for my own models, and having fun and deferring to the TO where appropriate is all that really matters. Listening to people who milk every ounce of competitive edge out of any situation will never lead to a good time in the spirit of the game/hobby, but it’s been interesting to hear the opinions you’ve collected.
I agree they're wildly different, but when there can only possibly be one of them on the board, and they LOOK so similar, it's an easy mental swap. In your example, I think the spinner is a good idea, because nobody even knows which eldar weapons are which, so do what you want xD
@@GlassHalfDead Ah yes! The true strength of playing Xenos teams, where the guns look like bread and wysiwyg doesn't matter.
Playing a melta as a flamer ?
"Sounds like your melty gun needs an inspection!"
@@herrnase4340 they both melt things!
This video helped shine some light on a conundrum with my scions. Before I got into KT, I always gave every scion the little blade and grenade bits for that extra ounce of "tacticool." With those pieces now represented equipment in the rules, I've always felt the need to avoid picking bits which contrast with the loadouts I bring. While the players I play with fortunately don't reinforce WYSIWYG down to the letter (helped with me placing a token indicating the scions with the blade or grenades, etc. etc), the rule of thumb having models which have the exact weapons and equipment on hand is what I try to follow when making new scions. Of course, this is subjective on not just player or TO opinion, but rule changes and new sprues introduced by bespoke teams. But them's the brakes.
+1 hell yeah for Cypher, who also leads my Legion team. We are no one's puppet.
I wanted to pick up the infernal master before I went to Play On to be my Balefire, but my local GW didn't have him. Oh well!
I can’t imagine why I’m just not interested in competitive play.
After watching the whole video, and giving it some thought... I guess I’d say... If you’re going somewhere to play very serious competition, against total strangers, the prudent thing would be to avoid all proxies. Take the models intended to represent the team you’re fielding and make them dead nuts wysiwyg. There’s enough to stay aware of, without having to remember that the lasgun is a Bolter or that the Drukari is a poxwalker with 5+ disgustingly resilient.
@@earnestwanderer2471 nah. Proxy the hell out of stuff.
I follow the rule of SLMPR (size, longweapon, pistol, melee, pouches, rank)
Size = roughly the same
Longweapon = model if unit has long range
Pistol = model if short ranged
Melee = the better in melee, the bigger the weapon modeled
Pouches = if model or similar model can have equipment (who knows what's in that pouch, could be grenades, an auspex or an iron halo.)
Rank = every model must be distinguishable by rank.
General rule:
Colour, modeling, trim must be as uniform as possible
Great vid and I think the proxies you showed were all amazing. I've just finished an Eliminator as Phobos Marksman proxy but mine is in the kneeling position, would it need a bit of height on the base? It's only about 3mm shorter 🤷🏻
I saw that on the painting handle when I was round, but honestly, the Eliminators are hardly kneeling. I really wouldn't have an issue with it! It's not going to be any closer to being below a barricade, which is what really matters for visibility.
Great video! I love kitbasing and model my own teams and models making them totally unique and as you said same bases, weapons and sizes, so great your tips to consider!
Where’s the “keep hydrated” come from lately?! Feel like you’re about to drop into that old bad lurhman song 😂
oof, that was a dull song I had forgotten about lol. It's just part of the wholesomeness!
Hydrate or die-drate!
@@GlassHalfDeadit is appreciated :)
If you don’t listen to Everybody’s Free (to Wear Sunscreen), at least once a year as a general life reminder, you are really missing out! There is always at least one part of that song that will be relevant to whatever you have going on in your life!!
This is exactly what I was concerned with for chaos spawn, got some accursed cultists for the torments and planned to slap them on 50mm bases
I hope this guide helps in that case! In my 40k Tsons, I did eactly that, I put some of the mutated torment things and put them on the currect base size for Spawns. I was considering then doing "cultist swarm bases" for the rest of the spawns, so putting the remaining like 5 cultists all on to one base
@@GlassHalfDead Exactly what I was thinking as well, lore wise spawn vary a lot in size. Still planning on getting a spawn box but for the price you can't go wrong with the 3 tormentors for proxies.
As someone who is running a near all proxied Vallahan guard army with 3rd party stuff all over it helps alot with intent and favor. If your going for just fun and not advantage typically people won't care in casual games
The dark eldar idea with replacement bolt rifles and chainswords yeah that actually sounds dope as hell. Like a full on Traitor dark eldar army. If that person was also running land raiders and other uniquely SM things i can in my head say "Yup thats a space marine army." With no issues.
Also speaking of SM, for them and CSM run custom colors! im being honest its not worth it to comform to any SM chapter. Literally everyone else that plays Xeno or anything that isnt a CSM model or SM model noone knows the lore enough to be upset but god forbid you try and play red ultramarines.
Really Kill Team needs to follow Legion’s example and use visibility templates. That way as long as the base size is good you can do whatever you like on top of it.
I'm not against it. It works! Plenty of games use templates, seems to work
Funny thing with shrivetalon - original model has two knifes and pistol in holster :D
I know. Pistols have generally always been allowed to count as in a holster :)
@@GlassHalfDead Even that is not necessary. The original Butcher model doesn't even have a holster despite also having a bolt pistol. Literally no one cares about pistols (unless it's some special one like plasma).
This video is really helpful, I was planning on making an ork kommandos kill team out of the beast snaggaz boyz, they're really cool models and I want my kill team to look different to other kill teams
Proxies are great and I'd play with or against any of them as long as the models are clearly defined.
When I built my intercession I just randomly choosen which bolter magazine I wanted to use. lol so they are all different in the squad.
Good on you. Greed workshop wanted to bump up the boxes needed for a full set of weapons, now their weapon rules are just different fighting doctrines for the squad. Serves them right
Great video. I was hoping to hear more about inclusion of non GW parts. Not full replacements, but when is it ok to include an anvil forge head on a GW body? My flgws says 50%, but admittedly that's pretty vaguely interpreted.
And what about the canonical antiperspirant land speeder? I know, ask your TO, but you can't check that before creating your force, so being conservative means buying and building a land speeder you don't plan to run.
Those are fair questions! The reason I didn't talk too much about non-GW parts is because outside of a Warhammer store, it's a total non-isse. But if you want to play at a Warhammer store, the official line is that it has to be 100% GW. There are technically rules in there that let it be a certain amount of non-GW and still be legal in a GW, but I wouldn't put any trust in those holding up in the face of a GW employee. And for me, rather annoyingly, but as I've started going to WHW regularly, I have had to not use quite a few 3rd part bits I bought in previous conversion ideas.
And all FLGS are completely different, so I can't talk about them at all.
The only faction that MIGHT get away with a total 3rd party model is an Ork vehicle, but even then, you'd be relying on your TO not realising it's a conversion.
The only proxies I have currently among my teams is in my Memoirs of Isstvan Deathwatch Mark III Team is I have one of those Power weapon and Bolter regular warrior models where He is armed with a Bolt pistol, and Power sword and I fluffed his fancy pistol as that kind of bolter that those guys come with. I'll always ask my opponent if they are cool with Kenji Yamata's "Archaeotech Bolt Pistol" which counts as the Deathwatch Boltgun, No other model in my roster has a deathwatch boltgun
all my regular boltgun guys are stalker patern boltguns because I didn't have any extra Power weapon dudes and I had already built/painted them.
My other Proxies are "The Cult of the Ancient Muse" which use Escher Ganger models to represent Chaos cultistss for a compendium chaos team.
I have Heavy Stubbers as Heavy stubbers, I have Chem Throwers as Flamers
I have the Pistol Dagger chicks as Pistol dagger cultists and Regular gun chicks as the gun cultists.
I doubt anyone would have a problem with any of these.
Off topic and not sure where else to ask but could you do an episode on how to use the Gallowdark expedition map rules?
And I say proxy everything, the first teaser release in white dwarf had paper minis
I actually never made a video going over the narrative side of ITD :O
i only sub to this channel for them double hellos.
And I only give them to make people subscribe to me.
I have a question and it might not be proxy related but. If I want to play Vet guard, can I use catachan jungle fighter or cadia or does it have to be Death Korp of Krieg?
This is saying you have the rules for vet guard
You can totally do that, yes. Note that the team is called veteran guard not death korps of krieg despite the models being dkok. I'm pretty sure this was intentional
@@GlassHalfDead ah thank you!
the best part is the magazines are never referenced or labeled to what they are in the starter boxes i got or the codex lmao
"a little bit carried away" 🤣🤣
Proxies have been some of the coolest models I've played against, as long as there is effort and passion behind the idea for the proxies and they are painted well its no big deal i actually prefer to play with folks that are passionate about their hobby and their miniatures
If the bolters aren't wysiwyg they should all be the same type. The Xmen team... I'm not familiar enough with what each character has because no one I know plays them. I was able to immediately tell it was them, but had a hard time figuring out which was which. Your wyrmblade... I'd be fine with, but definitely paint them to be more distinguishable. Unpainted proxies/kitbashes are a hard no for me. I love creativity, but finish the job!
So I'm looking to build a Salamanders team and got the special sprue for them. My problem is that it comes with a cool hand flamer and thunder hammer that I'd love to put on the sergeant's model, but everyone and their mother says to use plasma pistol/chainsword. I can't even legally play flamer/hammer together!
Is this a universal enough loadout for me to proxy and bring to a tournament, or am I forced to do it as standard?
I take issue with proxy models from different in-universe factions for other factions, like the Drukhari models as Intercession. As a casual novice, that would break my brain and I don't think I'd have any way of tracking that. I'd play the game as a courtesy in a casual or TO-approved setting, but it wouldn't be "fun."
But entirely 3rd party, or of same race type stuff, absolutely 100% have fun. So the Necromunda Ash Wastes as Kroot example I thought was fun! X-men? Hell yeah! Upscaled Grey Knights? Sure! Character model substitutions? Why not?
I can understand Pro-Players looking to be more restrictive about it in general. But if you're playing a casual game and someone's just being cartoonishly picky about a proxy/kitbash I've made, I'm just gonna walk away from the game. It's a hobby. These are all toys. None of it truly matters.
I have the question about using proxies for the hierotek plasmacites, instead of the ones in the KT box, using the ones that come in the skorpekh box. Or using a plasmancer instead of an apprentek. At the moment, it's nearly impossible to get a hierotek box and I'd rather buy other necron models anyway. But money is limited and I'd rather buy something that will work on both KT and regular 40k
I'm generally pro proxy. My warpcoven rubrics technically have flamers, but they can technically only have the bolt gun so does it matter? I've also played against someone casually who literally proxied a bunch of space marines and scouts as tyranids because he wanted to try them and didn't have the models. Literally only thing was I periodically had to ask which one was which and it took 5 seconds each time.
Honestly I'm 100% ok playing against paper cutout proxies or anything in casual games. I just don't like modeling for advantage or super super lazy proxies (100% counts-as, no conversion work at all, guy just literally took his guardsmen and decided to play as pathfinders today) or confusing proxies (just remember that this guy has a plasma gun and this guy has a melta gun even though they're both holding bolters ok?) in tournaments. In a tournament I'd be ok playing against any of the teams at the end of your video. The only team I was iffy on was the scions as GSC, but it's still ok.
Very unrelated but im curious 😅 do you ever play the old kill team?
I haven't played it since the new edition released, no! I hardly even remember how it works tbh :P
I'm using a Primaris Captain (the one that came with powersword, stalker bolt rifle and a cape) in a 32mm base as a seargent in my interssecion squad team. Does it count as proxy? Or conversion? Or is it 100% "legal"? D:
Sounds like an awesome conversion! Good for you! I would be super happy to play with you. Even if you would have it on the 40mm original base.
Sounds perfect to me! I obviously disagree with the above comment saying it would be okay on a 40mm base, but it's on a 32, so perfect! It counts as a proxy, not a conversion, as you've just taken another model and says it counts as something else, instead of attempting to create an all new model (known as kitbashing or converting).
But a Captain is a marine, no one could possibly have an issue with this proxy :)
@Glass Half Dead thanks for your answer. My big questioning came with the definition of a proxy. Specially with the compendium, WD and free teams. Because, the primaris cpt as a model came with the same power armor. The same weapons and power sword. Just with an extra cape and crest. Are players suposed to get the exact model as shown as example in those list? Take the intercession squad granadier. If you take another primaris assault intercessor with some bits of grenades would it be a proxy or conversion? sorry for all this questioning. I know I'm being a total nitpicker.
@@Ixidior So, very very very strictly speaking, yes, you are supposed to play with the exact models that are sold as the primaris team. Anything else, even a lieutenant or captain of the same name, is technically a proxy.
The assault grenadier doesn't need to be modelled differently because all they have is grenades and equipment doesn't need to be modelled.
@@GlassHalfDead Still, I would be super happy to play with him even if this has been a 40mm base. Because in all seriousness, I know you people want to win, but on a home-playing casual level 8mm base size difference is just not important.
i personally think in kitbash and in (i forget word but using models as other models) the key thing is sell the idea of what the model and the team represents. for example with case with legionary heavy guner chaincanon and heavy bolter sell the idea of bulky marine with wepon that do many but not that treatning shots when minisle luncher sel the idea of powerful one shot wepon that why i fink players are ok with giving using chaincanon as heavy bolter but no witch luncher all of this beacuse those wepon sell difrent ideas
It's Very Very hard to get models where I live, we don't have it in stock, it's super expensive and I loved karskins, so I changed bases on my scions, put one chest from demolitions krieg on a model and a Mine from the genestelar and the team is ready, i don't think people would not let me play It
i wonder if the high end players dont want/ dont like proxing stuff as they have to think a tiny bit more which they see as a disadvantage to them?
and high end table play every little helps
This is 100% the answer, and I agree that if I was in a top tournament, if I'm having to keep in mind additional information about your specific hobby during round 5 on the top table, it COULD, factor into my loss. THEREFORE EVERY TOP PLAYER SHOULD BE PROXYING AS MUCH AS THEIR TO WILL LET THEM FOR THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVANTAGE
You'd think they'd be happy having a dirty scrub who likes hobby or narrative across from them. Stomp the pub scrubs and take your flex, 'pro' player. 😄
I’m not sure that “think a TINY bit more” is a completely fair assessment. If I’m playing a team of vet guard, as vet guard, with all the proper weapon load outs and special equipment indicated with some sort of marker.... and you’re playing a mix of Orcs, Tyranids and Necrons as harlequins with every weapon being a counts-as, you’ve got more than a tiny advantage cognitively. Yes, an extreme example, I’m aware. But if I was a competitive player, who spent a huge amount of money to fly from Brisbane to Las Vegas and stay in an overpriced hotel for 4 or 5 nights.... With the actual goal of WINNING the LVO.... I’d really appreciate a fairly level playing field.
The extreme example you used would be a more to keep track of and a disadvantage but as you said I doubt any TO would allow it,
But as the hobby is a huge part of the hobby/game I think you are going to have to deal with some differences
It always surprises me how anal some players are about using the correct figures. I can understand in a highly competitive setting like adepticon but at your local gamestore even if it's a tournament it just seems silly to me. Obviously you shouldn't willfully cheat but I think that is immediately obvious in someone's proxy. Taking your original sister to intercession example, I would be concerned about the different weapons because that could mislead a player but 2mm of height difference? The likelihood that would impact the game is almost non-existent.
Ultimately would you rather play a game with someone so dedicated to the game to spend hours customizing every model they own or would you rather not play a game at all because if you're going to nit-pick at every little thing the reality is there aren't enough players out there for you to find the perfect opponent only.
Since they have the same stats, would you guys be cool with autoguns being used as lasguns for a custom vet guard team? The assault rifle look fits the theme of my regiment way more.
The exception being if I were to give capacitor packs to a model, then I'd use the right bit
Lasgun -> Autogun would be fine by me if you only take one or the other in your army or make them distinguishable otherwise.
But: wouldn't extra mags or so make more sense than a capacitor ? That breaks my immersion way harder x)
@@herrnase4340 oh I meant I'd use an actual hot shot lasgun for the guys with that equipment, rather than an autogun. Just makes it more distinct.
So what happens in those instances where the TO allows something and another player refuses to play what you've brought? Are they forfeiting the game because the TO gave it a thumbs up? Or are you forfeiting the game if you don't have the other models? I would think the latter would be something people would be able to abuse.
If you don't like the other guys approved team and you refuse to play you lose lmao, how can you think that any other option would be acceptable? Thats like saying that you don't like the buildings on the boards or you don't like the shirt of the other guy and demand he changes it.
@@heinz8233 Never done a tournament and I don't like to assume.
How fussy are TO:s about height? You list it in the video for tournaments but you don't seem to bring it up. Let's say you play a bespokes team with some spicy bases that increases the height by a few milimeters? Or you play Firstborn Marines that are smaller than Primaris Marines?
The general rule is that they are okay with your models being taller (cool bases are encouraged, of course!). If they're smaller, then they should make it very clear that you can't gain an advantage for their height (so, they can't hide visibility behind barricades that wouldn't be able to do it if they were the correct height). It is less important than base size and identifiable weapons :)
When we say correct base size though...are we talking about what GW supplies or what GW thinks they supply? Because I notice regularly that GW bases are bigger than what they say. Such as example the 60mm base being 65mm but declared in product descriptions as 60mm 🤣
It's GreedWorkshop. Obviously they supplied you with the wrong item on purpose so you had the unique opportunity to buy a box of bases from them.
So let's just say they don't care as long as you have the right base size their to wants at the time of playing
@@herrnase4340 unfortunately for them I just used MDF hex bases...yes I use the wrong shapes 🤣
Or I used warlord games thin bases. As they look nice.
What is the feeling on head swaps?
Me straight up running lernaean terminators with vulcite weapons as intercessors
Oh no
@herrnase4340 it's great though. The specialists get other weapons. The leader is the praetor in cataphractii armour.
If you need a lookup table to know what is what then it's not a good and useful proxy.
Useful
As someone trying to learn everything looking different mixed with GW absolute shiet labeling and naming perfect example is “intercessors” & “assault intercessors”. Who in the hell calls things the same…make a damn intercessor box with all bits or called it range kit, close range kit
I mean personally if your broke and want to play the table top anything can be a proxy.
This is my Glass-of-Milknought on his half empty 50mm base. He's a bit rancid smelling because I play nurgle
Honestly, I personally think that keeping the general silhouette and the model type is important. A marine is still a marine, and a human (or a human-sized Xenos like Tau) is still human-sized. That might be a different type of marine - a Chaos Marine on MKVI instead of an Intercessor, but not a Guardsman.
26:00
That's weird, because the original mini doesn't have a pistol modeled either. I would much rather have the proxy being closer to the original model rather than caring about WYSIWYG when even the original devs didn't.
I think the video doesn't represent well how much "lazyness" matters or what that means. No one gives a damn abut the effort you have put in, but it is really tiresome to play against something and have to constantly translate the model to the rules of another model. That's why playing with "counts as" is frowned upon.
I mean, who has intimate knowledge about what every single model for every single faction looks like immediately? Man, I'm constantly going "what, what guy is that? What's he do? What gun is that?" with official sculpts and upgrade kits.
@@Pandapeep I am not talking about intimate knowledge, but a general idea of what most weapons and miniatures are. And plenty of people have that. If you have been involved with warhammer for some years you know, or most people that have been know anyway. Conversions that keep the general idea? Amazing. Using your heavy bolter guy as a plasma gunner? Not so fine.
Besides, if the opponent uses a knight for a rook they create a problem, but if you don't know what a rook is the problem is yours
I wouldn't play the person trying to proxy that sister for the white templar. If maybe they proxy a loadout on a unit then I can be okay. Beyond that don't care what the TO says, if you can't be bothered to do the minimum I can't be bothered to game.
32:42 How TF did I miss this in the 4 version of the space marine codexes I’ve purchased?? I was looking for this info and here it is! I don’t impose WYSIWYG on my opponents but I sure as heck like to make sure my own stuff is WYSIWYG coz I’m a wanna-be know-it-all. 🤣🤣🤣 no but seriously… this is what I hate about the game that, as a new player you will build things to what YOU like, only to find out later - once you’re vested in the lore - that all your stuff is “built wrong”. It’s both a welcome discovery moment and an unsettling moment once you actually do meet that one gatekeeper who calls it out.
GW can easily make more money by forcing people to buy new models by adding a WYSIWYG rule to Xth edition: you MUST kitbash/model/buy-our-specific-model to represent each and every unit and their loadout on the table. Just like they added that 3-color “table-top-ready” paint rule. I’m surprised they didn’t milk this, being who they are.