Scope Tracking: Tall Target Test | Applied Ballistics with Bryan Litz
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Bryan Litz, ballistician, author and president of Applied Ballistics, says, "Before you go to long range you need to to some short-range work." Watch his walk-through of the "Tall Target Test" and learn how to get your sights properly aligned, zeroed and tracking vertically.
Learn more about the science behind long range shooting in Bryan's DVD "Applied Ballistics: Putting Rounds on Target with Bryan Litz": store.appliedba...
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Haven't had a chance to test if it holds zero, but mounts just fine and has nice clear glass. Centered vertically true to a plumb line with the crosshairs which is always a plus!It's a great th-cam.com/users/postUgkxc4K63Fd5LglDMObu7-Bgapxp_ef0W8hE scope. There's no parallax adjustment or focus ring, so may be limited to 3-7x, have to see how it is on the range. Also be aware that the rings are "look through" so you can still use irons, but they are really tall if you only intend to use the optics. On a 22LR no biggie since I'm not shooting competitions or worried about a hard cheek press. Will boresight and range test, if all goes well, I'll leave it at that!
If you are purely testing the scope, you can do this without firing a shot I think.
Just put the rifle in a vise or just the scope if it's not yet attached. Then at a known distance setup a target and mark on that the zero/baseline and increments in terms of MOA or Mils for that distance.
Then you can dial it in on the scope and see if it lines up with the increments you've made on the target.
The bad thing for me with this video is. This video came out 7 years ago and I'm just now learning this.... Better late then never.
What an excellent video! It not only taught a valuable technique, but it taught why the technique works so we understand what we're doing. Knowing how to do something is a technician level of understanding. Knowing why to do something is an engineering level of understanding. This video was exactly what I'd expect for Applied Ballistics: The Science of Accuracy. Thank you!
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This is one of the most useful videos I have ever watched. Thank you for this great content! It made me take notes for future reference.
I agree! 100%
It made you "Take Notes?" Like um, Why, EXACTLY would you need to do that?
@@Steve-O_462 to remember things? just a guess
Great video! One thing if I may, when you measured with the Range finders, you were physically further back on the mat, from where you anchored the tape measure. It actually looks like the difference in distance would favor the measurements given by the first 2 range finders. I only mention it as it's good to know which devices are most accurate.
Great video again, and ty for the content!
Also what I like to do is the "box test". You draw an imaginary square, dialing in an equal amount of clicks up, right, down, left (or otherwise). If you end up at the same spot you began, you know the scope is tracking well.
If you draw out the square with known length (complying with a certain amount of mils/MOA for the distance you will be shooting at) and just dial in the clicks, you also know that what you dial in is the correct length of travel you'll get down range.
So the scope is dialing in the POI correctly.
Plumb not level.
For anyone not very skilled and/or has a low-powered scope, this can just as easily be done at 50 yards, even 25 yards. Just need to adjust the MOA equations as needed. Good video and information overall.
Brian is so badass, he doesn't even have to cycle the bolt to fire 3 shots.
Years later still the best long range rifle zeroing video out there
@Walru5hunter: Not bashing, its just not purely a 'zero' exercise as it is a vertical alignment validation...
Why not just drag the mat back the needed 7yds to an even 100yds? No worries of extra math for corrected distance.
What a shame it will be if this administration goes through with their recent anti-gun policies and prevents people from watching great training videos like this. This is a new hobby for me and I'm enjoying it so far.
So everyone fudging/"truing" their velocity numbers and/or BC's in their ballistics apps may actually have had inaccurate scope tracking or adjustment increments.
Cold Shot LLC's MOAB/MRAB Elevation Adjustable Scope Mount is looking pretty good now!
Long range shooting is hard :( Only future energy weapons will get rid of all that complexity.
I never would have thought of this test... I would just keep assuming that it would some other variable and not my scope. Thanks, Brian!
That's very interesting. I learned something new today and I always appreciate learning something new. Especially when it has to come to shooting. I can honestly say I do not know a lot about long distance shooting but I would definitely like to learn more about it. I am interested in purchasing my first long range precision rifle and I am highly considering a Ruger precision rifle to see if it is something I want to get further involved in. Thank you for all the great information
Love the fact that the cheaper rangefinders were the closest to the right range :) Great vid guys!
Fun fact: average the 3 range finders and you almost land exactly on the distance he's at from the target.
@@denmanfite3156 So the Solution isn't to buy a 1000 dollar rangefinder. It's to buy 5 different 200 dollar range finders and average all of them XD.
Dude, move back to 100 and make the video less complicated.
Marco -- I think he does it on purpose to point out the importance of knowing the distance from scope to target.
Unless you are hunting with a tape measure, shouldn't you calibrate based on whatever your laser range finder says?
Thanks for a really excellent video! Do you please have the equivalent MIL radian constant for the MIL radian calcs please?
1 mil at 100 meters is 10cm (or 3.93701 inches). Converting this to yards gives us 3.93701/1.09361=3.6 inches at 100 yds. Dividing it by 100 gives us our constant: 0.036.
In order to eliminate shooter error, can you put the scope in a vise, make a vertical line with 30 mil hash marks, aim at the dot, crank up 30 mils and see if it lines up?
You can, but make sure you don't have mils and MOA confused.
that won't test the scope alignment on the rifle.
Good info. I usually set my target up exactly 95.5 yards from my rifle, so that 1 MOA will equal 1 inch at the target. 30 MOA will travel up 30 inches. Just easy for me. But it is good to know how to figure at any distance.
Thanks for the vid.
Of course, if you've got a FFP scope with a graduated reticle in the same format as your turrets (mil/mil or moa/moa) you don't need to measure the distance to the target at all- just use the scope to check its own tracking.
A Shutler explain! Lol sounds a lot easier!
Do the same equations work for mils if you use meters/cm? Thanks
Same question. Anyone find the answer?
Mils works with inches and cm equally well. The equation is the same with a different constant.
Range * MRAD * 0.001 = distance
Eg
1000 yd * 1 MRAD * 0.001 = 1 yd
100 m * 1 MRAD *0.001 = 0.1 m
7:00 First off I think this was a great and informative video but I'm surprised you didn't pre-measure your distance and shoot from exactly 100 yds in order to help make the math a little easier. As retired military I constantly heard the acronym of the 7 P's - Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance. But seriously, still and great video and I did learn something new and useful that I will use in the future.
@disillusioned070 -- I suspect he used a non-100 yard distance on purpose to show how to account for that. His example of using three Laser Rangefinders was likely done to demonstrate that you can't just them. Same for attaching your target to the target frame.
I've officially watched every tall target test video on the internet Even a more recent one that applied ballistics put out. And this one is still the best.
I am curious to know whether the parabola difference between the 308 and the 243 could account for the 1 inch difference of the 30 MOA adjustment test...
east to west level...north to south.. plumb.
I understand that true yardage is 93 yds... but shouldn't you calibrate your data to the range finder your taking in the field?? Seems logical to because when you set the D.O.P.E. for your rifle you'll more than likely be ranging it with your range finder..
measure the distance from the turrets or the muzzle? Little to no difference, just curious as to what would be the ideal spot.
Just from a recording standpoint:
What's the best way you've found to get clear footage of the impacts along the full length of the target? All these widescreen video formats are really putting a damper on vertical recording.
Brian, one more question please. How can you be sure that the impact point variance of the groups using the second rifle were not due to a wind shift? Thanks for your reply.
Great test. Very well explained. Just make sure that your carpenters level is true before you set your target with it 👍🏻
True that....they make some pretty shitty levels out there.
Awesome info!! I LOVE all the stuff that Bryan does- He's a genius!!
The first range finder was probably correct within inches, when he held his tape it was closer to the target than when he ranged with the finders. Great video thanks, which range finders are those in the order you used them?
For me, a 100 yard bunny makes me smile.
I now need to think about the level error warnings I get with my pulsar XM38 thermal scope as I get a warning if the scope is not level BUT, I now need to know if the error marker kicks in at the same Plus and Minus angle else, using the LACK of a marker as an indication of'level', can still mean my gun is tilted over a tad.
Remember, I am shooting in pitch dark and a bubble level is no good to me...
Of course, I could simply do some tests at my more typical 50 yard zero to learn whether the misses I have experienced are a levelling of the scope issue, or something else..
My NEXT issue is with my .223 reloads which, by comparison with yours at 100 yards, are literally pants in comparison.
Grief, I though I was doing well...
Weapons Grade Respect from the UK.
Always wanting to start with a positive, the shooting and rig were impressive!!
Scopes are precision instruments and a shot test is not a precision test method, e.g., shooter imperfections, ammo consistency, rifle imperfections, atmospherics, and cartridge temperature.
Great video. Would the same formula work for MRAD?
Amazing. This is exactly what I had done years ago to verify that my scope was mounted correctly. Excellent video.
I was not surprised about all three rangefinders being wrong. The only one I trust is a Military LASER range finder. If they're off by 2 yards at 100 yards imagine at 1000.
I'm not exactly sure all three were wrong. A fiberglass tape like that will stretch several inches over 50' let alone 300'.
@@Caderic no that tape works buddy. I work in precision and use those tapes to layout heavy machines all the time
@@diamondstandard7794 Never said it didn't work, buddy. But I know for a fact that make and model stretches, which challenges the tolorance the accuracy.
Also,, don't assume that a level is accurate.
Check several, , you will be surprised.
Question - After you found that you were only aprox 94 yards...couldn't you just move your rig BACK to where you would be shooting at 100 yards?
Great info
Thank you!
Where do you actually measure from?
The chamber of the rifle or the end of the barrel?
I noticed that you ranged from basically behind the rifle but started the tape closer to the front.
EXCELLENT presentation -- you just answered a couple of problems I was dealing with and one of your other clips raised a couple of new ones for me.... homework. I just ordered one of your books. Thank you!
Great video ill make sure to check my scopes on my next outing.
Wouldn't velocity play a part of impact shift also? a slow round will hit different than a faster round wouldn't it?
Excellent video and great info. I have a question, I noticed you used two different rifles with different barrel lengths, will that make a difference on the point of impact? Where the rifles the same caliber and same grain bullet? Thanks.
There is no difference because they are angular measurements, take into account that the first group and the second one are fired by the same rifle.
Sooooo. Anyone want to tell him that tape measures can shrink or geow with heat or cold.....?
And not all levels are accurate. You should check them to see if the bubble is the same on both sides before trusting the level.
Lets check thay tape with another 3 tapes. Then lets check plumb with lazer plumbs and a plumb bob. 😂
I bet them good ol boys in hills are laughing their chaw outta their cheeks with all these new systems, set ups, and techniques... Until they get knocked outta the tree by a bullet they didn't know was coming!
My goodness man, things have gone so technologically advanced, it's a little unnerving, if not intimidating.
This test is used by champion long range shooters it gets the shooter an exacting no-wind zero which is most important to long range when wind must be countered good enough for 1 MOA X-Ring hits
Great lesson
Awesome tutorial ... I have heard of the vertical target but it was not explained like you explained it ... thank you.
If I’m testing the scope on a 22 with a 50yd zero, should I perform the test at 50 instead of 100? Or doesn’t matter either way?
Thanks for the very informative video. Why did I not think of this before? I have to go test my scopes and rifles soon.
I have watched a few zeroing videos at 100 yards. What I don’t understand is, why is it ok to zero windage in open where there a wind factor that is no measured or accounted for?
Brian very nice demo EXCEPT! Your range finders were referenced at the butt end of the weapon. Where as the tape measure was referenced at the tip of the weapon's barrel!…..leaving a approx. 4' differential….Important because of the topic
of different measuring tools giving different measurements ….the same tool will give a differential with that application…..
Very impressive. Intelligent and articulate. A pleasure to watch.
ever heard of a surveyors tape?
thats why i like swfa scopes they are cheap and track as good as the expensive scopes.
What was the brand names of the 3 crappy range finders I want to stay away from those company's.
I recognize the one that gave 93 yard. It looks like a Bushnell which has an advertised accuracy of +-1 yard. So if was just under 93 by tape, I'd say that right on.
Excellent test for level before going long range, thank you for sharing.
Why do you make it so complicated. You have the space, why not just shoot at 100 yards ? What a waste of time.
Excellent video. Thanks Bryan.
I know this is a old video. What if your shots aren't hitting all dead center and you have a grouping. You will have one shot on each side of the line. What do you do if your group moves the side?
No expert here, but that could mean your scope is not perfectly vertical. Fit a scope level and use it. Hope this helps.
Excellent video. I have been using a plumb bob instead of a level to set target. It worked for the Egyptians. and it transports easier. Thanks for sharing your abundant knowledge.
Any Level needs to be calibrated, because the bubble is usually Not parallel with the straight edge due to manufacturing costs. So, to check if bubble is True, test it. Select a flat level surface, e.g. the floor or a Vertical surface, e.g. door jamb. Then, Mark the position of a level on a selected surface, so that, the level can be reversed into the marks carefully. Notice, the bubble changes position. Then, split the difference in the graduations with the bubble to obtain the correct match of the bubble to the level. The plumb bob is easiest to mark 2 points vertically along the string after the bob is dampened out from swinging,
@@mikevallee3916 that's why you buy American made levels but I've never had a level that needed to be calibrated. Usually they are sent to the Metrology Department. Unless it has metal dust on the magnets or was dropped or accidentally arched while welding lol
anybody know the EPOIS formula for mil scope??
I realise this is super stale, but in case it helps simply replace the 0.010407 constant with 0.0357
Range * MRAD * 0.001 =distance
The Mils formula: Range distance x # of mils x .0.03599 (mils constant for yards) or 0.03936 (mils constant for meters), example: 100 yds x 3 mils x 0.3599 = 10.797
Tip from a carpenter, learn to check the level to see if it is working properly, even a brand new level from the store
Instead of using a level to plumb,a plumbob would be best
As it doesn't lie,
Where is the starting point for your 100 yard (92.66 yd) measurement? From the end of the barrel? End of the scope? Bolt face?
Gravity doesn't start affecting the bullet until it leaves the barrel.
92.66 yards means 92 yards plus 2 feet. The barrel itself is around 2' long.
Does this have to be done at 100 yards? Could it be done at 25 or 50 yards?
I just tried this and on three targets my actual poi was 33.75" vs the expected 31.4" using 30 MOA adjustment at 100 yards x the constant .01047. So, does this mean my scope is not elevating correctly per click, it is a Bushnell tactical elite 1/4" moa turrets, or that I just need to use a different constant? Does the projectile factor in? 175 g SMK hpbt. I am a bit confused about my turret elevation per click now. Thanks for any help with my questions.
Your range finder was 1/2 yard behind the scope.. 1 yard behind the barrel crown. Id say the tracking could be better measuring is off a smidge.. Another way to check scope tracking. Put gun in vice, dial up 30moa cross hairs should be on the 29.1 dot..
Where do you get the unit constant of .01047? That's for yards correct? What would the constant for feet instead of yards? Also what would be the constant for Mils? I'm thinking you can do this test without shooting shots. You can do it indoors by locking the scope in some sort of vice to eliminate ANY movement, and setup your target 30 feet way.
Good bit of info... will be doing this to all my scopes.
Bryan is pretty good at math..... just saying. 🙂
So what's the math if you're using mils?
can i ask, for the correction factor, would you mind sharing the equation if working in metric world, with centimetre, Meters and Mills (MRAD).
Thats why the Athena BPR reticle is king, no need to dial and the grid shows you exactly where you’re at vertically and 100% to scale
Thank you so much for this information! I've been contemplating whether my scope is tracking accurately and being able to mitigate installation or hardware errors using this approach is very helpful!
How much of that correction factor is from the objective lens of the scope and the muzzle being on different parallel-with-target planes?
Extremely usefull. I have a grendel and a 308 and iys meant to be long range. Tine to hit the range to do this test and see if i track correct
Do you have the formulas for people using Mils? If it is posted here and i missed it I'm sorry.
+alphawolf146714 -- Instead of the number 0.01047, use 0.036, in his example.
Thank you
+Todd B at 100yds I get 108" of shift for 10 mils (300" x 10 x .036 = 108").
Shouldn't this be a shift of 36" at 100yds for 10 mils?
what did I mess up?
+DFOOSKING
range (in yards) X dialed elevation X Constant.
you converted the 100 yards to 300 feet which throws the formula off.
100*10*.036=36
also this can be used overseas in meters as well,
100meters * adjustment in mils * .01 = expected adjustment (in CM).
all the constant is is 1/100th of the value of 1 unit of measurement. so 1 MOA @ 100 yards = 1.047", constant is .01047.
a mil is 3.6 inches @ 100 yards so .036.
a mil is 1cm at 100 meters so the constant is .01cm
1MOA is 2.91 CM @ 100 meters so constant is .0291CM
i think im correct someone smarter then me will put me in my place im sure lol
So how can we do this accurately with a Warner rear #2 , and a Riles 22mm front sight. Me and my 6inch Starrett level have been going nuts trying to get the front sight plane to be parallel to the rear.
Is that Ben Avery?
sonnysand Brian Lentz
Still didn't catch it
sonnysand LOL, they thought you meant the presenter's name.
You mean is that the Ben Avery shooting center in AZ. Been wondering the same thing. Looks like it to me.
***** Sorry, he didn't spell his name out loud or write on the blackboard when I met him. I should have read the description. BTW that's Mr. Bryan Litz to you ; )
sonnysand Yes, it appears to be. Not unreasonable if they did some footage shooting while in town for say the SW Long Range Nationals.
This is the best, most informative and helpful video for long range I have ever watched!! you have explained so well and made it easy to understand through the technique and the way you have shown it through your vid. Credit to you mate!! Can you please tell me if that formula will worth when using the mills system, not just the MOA system? thank you!
Does the gun position and different barrel lengths affect the impact points? Because, 2nd rifle had longer barrel, and was closer to target as a result.
Thank you for this excellent video. However, it appears you had placed the tape measure over a foot ahead of where the range finders were held.
Very helpful video. Do you have the formula equation for using a milrad scope?
Would anyone know the "constant" factor if a shooter was using a scope in MRad rather than MOA?
+MJ Cunningham Instead of the number 0.01047, use 0.036.
+MJ Cunningham if you use meter and mil the formula is just as simple: distance (m) x mRad = POI impact ( mm )
appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/TallTarget.pdf This information is also available in the AB Mobile application user guide.
Range * MRAD * 0.001 = distance
is that at Ben Avery?
Very useful! Thanx a lot.
I wonder how accurate the tape is. We use tapes just like that in construction and find that they sill stretch an inch or so over 50', let alone 300'. It seams to me that the two cheaper ones were pretty close. Just my anecdotal experience.
👍 Thanks for the very informative video!
If you staple the target material up, use the level as a guide for marking target line.
You Young Man, did a awesome job explaining this even an idiot should be able to understand it. I just found this channel and I Sub'ed too.
Which cheap range finder did you have?
Thank you for this. Cant wait to tall test my first rifle and scope ever.
Do you have a video on how to use the correction factor at 200 or 300 yards?
Would it be a good idea to mention to do a scope tracking test at the beginning of the video ( before mounting scope to rifle and go to the trouble of going through tall target test). Anyway I am still learning and just a beginner.
another great drill is a box drill. The box drill checks elevation tracking and windage tracking.
Wouldn't fps changes in the cartridge also get this same result?. Less the side movement.