I really appreciate you guys sharing this portion of the conversation. I think this portion of the convo depicts the fun time that we had while disagreeing as brothers in Christ.
I was very appreciative of your civil friendly discussion despite opposing view points. Very enjoyable conversation to listen to. Props to you for treating Leighton as a brother in Christ and providing a great example of respectful disagreement.
@@yourgamerguy4000thank you for the encouragement. I am hoping to have more of these conversations in the future. We need to have these brotherly disagreements but at the same time we need to be able to work together to spread the Gospel. That’s my goal anyways. Thanks again for the encouragement.
I think one of the disconnects that Calvinists have is that they essentially argue as if us believing saves us, or that it CAUSES us to be saved, or that it's a good work. The problem with that is not only is scripture clear that faith, simply believing in Christ and putting our trust in Him, is the opposite of a good work. Humbly admitting one cannot save themselves is not salvific. It's the opposite. It's saying we cannot save ourselves, so we throw ourselves at the mercy of God to be saved by Him. And that choice to do so doesn't force or cause God to save us. Without God's choice and action to save our trusting in Him, being humble, etc. would not save us. It's a non-issue really. And Leighton is right, that in all actuality it's under the Calvinistic framework that man is made better in order to believe whereas under our view all men have this ability to believe and those who do so make the better choice but it's not salvific or meritorious. God's choice is not based on our righteousness but on Christ's righteousness, which we benefit from by being in Him, which happens through baptism of the Spirit, where we are buried with Him and then raised with Him THROUGH faith. Faith is merely the means by which we access His grace, not the means by which it is accomplished and therefore we cannot say that we are better than the sinner as they had the same ability we did and that choice is not salvific.
DW: Good points! From my perspective the Calvinists relationship to "belief" is that he sees it in scripture as a NECESSARY CONDITION of salvation. And that directly contradicts his doctrine which stipulates every person's salvation is FIXED before they are born The doctrine stipulates only one NECESSARY CONDITION for salvation .......an infallible decree which occurs before any human is created and thus before the act of "belief" is even possible. So the Calvinist - is forced to try to get a square peg (his doctrine) to fit into a round hole (Scripture). In order to make Calvinism *APPEAR* Biblical - they have to somehow incorporate "belief" into it Making "belief" *APPEAR* to be a NECESSARY CONDITION - but not really because that contradicts the doctrine Trying to get one square peg after another - to fit into round holes - explains why Calvinists are always dreaming up new AD-HOC inventions
@@TwitchyTheologian Sorry, nope. I can’t with people who malign the character of God and basically make Him the moral equivalent of a guy who breeds puppies to torture some and snuggle others.
@@amyk87 yea I’d hate it if someone believed that too. 😂. Don’t be so cage stage, my friend. Btw, I wonder why God keeps using Calvinists who “Malign His character” (Wes Huff, Doug Wilson, Adoniram Judson, Me…)? Could it be that we are actually Christians?
@TwitchyTheologian I never said you weren’t Christians. God uses all kinds of people to advance His word, even ones who base their theology on the thoughts of a twisted murderer like John Calvin. I’m definitely not wasting my precious time debating your bad theology with you. I’ll just pray God opens your eyes to His loving character. Take care.
Amen we can choose to accept or reject Him and humility is difficult for most people. But our Lord is good, He has promised to save those that call upon Him. Our Rock and our Salvation.
@@joelauretta4067 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live". Deuteronomy 30:19
@@joelauretta4067 One it is about the salvation of a people and two it defeats Calvinism in a single verse. Man has the ability to accept or reject God. Calvinism is false.
@@joelauretta4067Good question! My understanding is that God works to give every human being the opportunity to accept or reject salvation that come through faith. God then gets all of the glory.
My personal experience is a little different than you described. I believed in Christ almost all my life, I was never an atheist or anything, but I was prideful, followed my own ideas of what Christ was, it was not until my early 40's a few years ago that I put a full trust into God. I believed for years without any regeneration, and once I said I can't do this on my own I need help and will follow it, is when I was regenerated/born a new, and that is when I started feeling the presence and guidance from God. It was more than a belief, more than praying every day, which I have done for years. It seems God was happy with me being lost until I made the clear choice, to seek his help, and submit to his guidance. And that was a clear choice I had to make, and voice to Him, because once I did everything started changing spiritually for me.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Sometimes God draws people slowly for years and then when the time is right He completes what He started years before. Others were ambivalent about spiritual things until a crisis comes up (GOD LOVES to bring a crisis into our lives) and He draws us to Him quickly.
@@colmortimer1066 So we choose God. I wonder why there are over 60 New Testament passages that say God chooses us, has chosen us, elected us, predestined us, gave us to Jesus and so forth? Romans 3:11 says "No one seeks for God..." which is a quote from Psalm 14:2-3 and Psalm 53:2-3 yet millions of non-Calvinists claim that we choose God!
Who is the 'us'? Believers or pre-believers/unbelievers? Surely the us is believers? then we can't have an issues with that group being elect, predestined, chosen, etc, right? There is a vast difference between 'us' being those who believe, and the 'us' being those random few God chose before the foundation of the earth, that are the 'us' even before they believed. It pleases God to save those who believe...it doesnt say it pleases God to save those He chose to believe.
@@AVB2-LST1154 Maybe you should watch Dr. Flowers instead of being trapped in your own arrogance. Is God a liar? Because it is very clear He wants us all to repent and be saved...to choose to believe in him and to love him...we will need help to truly be transformed. But the gospel is sufficient to convert us. Or if you are a Calvinist the gospel is useless as God chose you, from the beginning of time. And He lies when He pretends he loves us all and wants us to love him back. All though the bible people are told to quit sinning, to choose to follow Him. Don't let your pride lead you, let love, and humility lead you.
One believes God chooses some for salvation and rejects all others. The other believes that God reaches out to everyone, and whosoever responds in humility receives His salvation.
DW: YES! The Calvinist - per the doctrine - lives in a radically different world In the NON-Calvinist world 1) ALTERNATIVES exist within creation (SIN vs NOT SIN for example) 2) Humans are granted CHOICE between those ALTERNATIVES 3) That CHOICE is *UP TO* the human to make In Calvinism - per the doctrine - ALTERNATIVES do not exist within creation. The very existence of any ALTERNATIVE would falsify the doctrine of decrees Therefore - Calvinists are not granted CHOICE between ALTERNATIVE options Nothing within creation is granted to option to BE or DO OTHER than that which was decreed For every human event - and every human impulse - the decree grants only *ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION* And the creature is granted NO SAY in the matter of what that option will be - and no ability to refrain. That is why humans are not granted a CHOICE in the matter of salvation in Calvinism They are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything - because ALTERNATIVES do not exist for them to choose. Blessings!
We do not have a literal heart of stone, God does not literally give us a new heart. You can't take figurative language and base your whole worldview on it. It's like being dead in sin. The unbeliever is not literally dead, it is a figure of speech. But, if you are gonna use that arguement, you accept that you are talking about being given a new heart, being reborn, being given new life. Jesus said 'by believing you may have life.' John 20:31. Paul said in Colossians you are raised with him through faith. So even that arguement doesn't stand against Biblical scrutiny.
No offense, but is this brother on the payroll of soteriology 101 to be a weak argument? I'm only partially joking. These new short versions of your information are excellent! Concise and to the point. Thank you
The entire conversation was a bit frustrating. Twitch just continually asserts what he believes and doesn’t substantiate them and largely handwaved Doc’s responses. Dr Flowers continually compared scripture with scripture. Praying for both.
Making a better choice....does not mean a better man. God makes the man...better. AFTER belief. Calvinism is dangerously close to putting all blame on God for a person who remains lost in their sins after hearing the Gospel. The non Calvinist says its the mans fault for not believing in the Gospel. The Calvinist says(indirectly) its Gods fault for not flipping the mans switch to believe the Gospel.
Right. Ultimately the man's unwillingness to believe which is due to their nature is God's fault because the nature man has was determined by God for them to have. Man has no real responsibility under Calvinism. Calvinists misinterpret Paul in Romans 9 to answer for this clear problem. We push back and are told we are arguing against God. It makes having reasonable discussions with Calvinists very difficult.
Correct! In Calvinism - the option to believe in Christ - does not exist as an option for the NON-Elect The impulse to believe is CONTRARY to the decree And that which is CONTRARY to the decree is not granted existence within creation So the impulse to believe does not exist for the NON-Elect Thus the NON-Elect are held responsible for not having that which did not exist for them to have And held responsible for not choosing things which do not exist for them to choose. This is exactly what we would expect to see - when anyone tries to force extra biblical concepts into scripture
Not dangerously close, that is exactly what it means even though they deny it. But logically it is impossible to deny it based on what they DO affirm. However, I have never met a logical Calvinist. As soon as a Calvinist starts being logical, they stop being a Calvinist. And that starts with humbling YOURSELF!
@@GrahameGould DW: Yes you are correct! Calvinists are heavily reliant on Rhetorical devices - such as re-defining words in order to make those words fit into their system - where those words do not fit with that word's standard and and commonly understood definition. Words like "Permission" and "Choice" for example. John Calvin -quote When [Augustine] uses the term PERMISSION, the *meaning which he attaches to it* will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of god is the supreme and primary * CAUSE* of all things….(Institutes 1, 16, 8) So the Calvinist uses the term "Permit" as a replacement word for CAUSE 1) What Calvin's god CAUSES by infallible decree - he permits 2) What Calvin's god does NOT CAUSE by infallible decree he does not permit So here the word "Permission" is given an INVERTED meaning. In Calvinism - there is no such thing as CHOICE between CONTRARY options - because the very existence of a CONTRARY option would falsify the doctrine of decrees. Never the less - Calvinists are always using the word CHOICE *AS-IF* they are granted CHOICE between CONTRARY options So you are correct! Calvinists use language to make things *APPEAR* to exist within the doctrine which do not LOGICALLY exist. LOGIC doesn't give them what they want. Blessings!
Something that continually astounds me generally in life is how intelligent people can have have such a disconnect with plain simple logic. Calvinism is the most obvious example of this phenomenon I know.
So what "disconnect with plain simple logic" do Calvinists have? I guess you believe that God is always logical and always makes sense. So lets see what the bible has to say about being logical and being a Christian. If you want to become wise, become a fool. “If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.” 1 Cor 3:18-19 If you want to be rich sell everything you have and give it to the poor. “Then Jesus, said to him, “Go sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…" Matt 19:21 Lose so you can gain! “For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ.” Philippians 3:8 If you want to be exalted, humble yourself. “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.” James. 4:10 If you want to be first, be last. “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” Matthew 20:16 If you want to be strong, be weak. “For when I am weak, then I am strong.” 2 Corinthians 12:10 If you want to be free, become a slave. “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” Romans 6:22 Matthew 16:25 “If you want to live, you must die. “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” 2 Cor 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
@@AVB2-LST1154 being a fool in 1 Corinthians 3 is in the context of being contrasted with the wisdom of the world. This has to do with people like the philosophers of Athens. Paul is not saying that we are to be stupid or foolish but that the simple message of the cross is considered foolish among the high minded worldly wisdom seekers. To them the simple message of the cross is foolish, too simple.
@@TwitchyTheologian --- [01] Please explain to the class how and why observations, criticisms and sound logical arguments exposing the unbiblical nature of Reformed Theology’s presuppositions, unestablished claims, doctrines and apologetic is rude?, and [02] if Calvinists had big-boy panties they would not run away like frightened little girls when confronted with the truths involved in [01]!!!!!, and [03] condescending reply comments, ad hominem attacks, hate speech, psychological abuse, and deleting a critics comments, from Calvinists, directed toward non-Calvinists who are doing [01], are not arguments; but they seem to be the only thing Calvinists know to do. Why is that????????, and [04] I never, ever, see a Calvinist attack/correct another Calvinist for the intellectual dishonesty they ubiquitously exhibit in [03] Why is that????? And [05] why do Calvinists think they can command respect when they concoct a thousand excuses so they can run away like frightened little girls from perfectly legitimate observation, criticisms and arguments?????? As to the video, you never heard one word Dr. Flowers said because you were too busy looking for a gotcha moment. .
Appreciate Leighton and his teaching and so my question is to increase my own understanding more than disagreement. Why can’t God be given credit for being behind the decision the younger brother makes to humble himself and go home to his father? It seems like there is too high of a need to say his decision to return home was not a good decision.
4.00 - What if there were 2 brothers, and before creation God elected one for salvation, and the other for damnation, eternal concious suffering, punishment and torment? And all this even though the 1st did not come to God in humility, and the 2nd brother wasn't afforded the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ. Even though we are told God doesn't show favouritism.
God shows favoritism. Deu 7:6 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a SPECIAL PEOPLE unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." 1 Peter 1:9 "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own SPECIAL PEOPLE, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." There are two kinds of people on earth the wicked and the righteous, born again and natural, children of the devil and children of God. When the Israelites moved into the promised land did God say "I love everyone including the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, so go tell them that God loves them and has a wonder plan for their lives." Uh, not quite here is what He said: Deut 7:1-3 “When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and UTTERLY DESTROY THEM.”
@@paulmann9154 _"It's not me saying God doesn't show favouritism, it's the Bible"_ Then anyone who do believe in the Bible must be practitioners of the Alexandrian cult. Clearly the Bible said on one side "Few are chosen" and on the other side "there is no respect of persons with God."_ So what is now the real answer if you can tell?
@@nonconformist4802 I don't follow your logic. In your previous post, you talk about God's chosen people driving out other nations. Why where Israel God's chosen people? A random choice of God showing favouritism? No. God made a promise to Abraham because he had faith and trusted God, he made mistakes, but God rewarded his faith. And the nations he drove out were all peacefull, just, godly nations? No. They were wicked people who deserved God's wrath. Simple. GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVOURITISM. He rewards faith. Even faith from sinners.
If my heart was made good before i believe in Christ, then i don't really need Christ to begin with. I've got a good heart now. 🙄🤦♂️ Calvinism makes a mess of scripture
Hello my fellow human! You are right God determined everything from beginning to end, Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: He chose who were to be saved, and are written in the book of life. Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Also apparently threatened those who were in the book of life, that He would remove some of them from the book of life. Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. But He won’t do it because God is perfect and doesn’t make mistakes. That is his character. So who are you o man?? “That’s a Bible verse by the way” Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? God also determined those who will not be in the book of life before the constitution of the world! Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Therefore, I believe in double predestination!!! Peace, my fellow humans❤️
Hey Leighton, still learning about the various systematic theologies. Where does sin nature fall into this view? Are we condemned because of a sin nature inherited at birth in and of itself or are we separated because of the first act of sin we commit? Sorry still learning, only been born again about 2 years. Thanks for all the work you put in.
I'm not Leighton, but here's my take. Sin nature is human proclivity to sin. We're born fallen (i.e. experiencing the curse of sin) but not guilty of Adam's sin. We become guilty when we commit sin.
I was a Calvinist pastor for 20 years. I left Calvinism 1 1/2 years ago. To this day I shake my head and I am dumbfounded as to how I ever believed in the Calvinist view of things. I have come to the conclusion that it is a very logical system in and of itself, but Scripture, which is logical, destroys Calvinism. I think Calvinism holds up only when you take a select number of verses out of context and you fit every other verse through that system, but that is not how we are to read Scripture.
@@AVB2-LST1154 First things first - I am not a Calvinist or see myself as one. Please bear with me. They don't really have not scriptures to refute Calvinism, they normally used things that Calvin has said or believe as evidence against the group. But scriptures they love to use against Calvinist is as follows: 2 Peter 2:1 "He died for all" 2 Peter 3: 9 "It is the will of the Lord that all should come to repentance" But we can't ignore the following: Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" Ephesians 1: 11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" So yes God died for all, and would love that all come to repentance. I had to believe that, but I can't ignore: "For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22: 14
@@nonconformist4802 Agreed 100%. If Christ died for "all the sins of all the world" that means that the sin of unbelief has been paid for 100%. Two things prevent people from going to Hell, unbelief and sin and BOTH have been taken care of so EVERYONE goes to heaven! Those 50 or so passages about Hell that Jesus warned us about? He must have been kidding.
@@nonconformist4802 Quote " I am not a Calvinist or see myself as one." I LIKE THAT! I am going to use that to describe my personal belief system, and you are right, non-Calvinists know they can't disprove "Calvinistic beliefs" since they are straight from scripture so they attack Calvin's writings. Good point there bro. Something that is interesting. According to a recent poll only about 10% of people who describe themselves as "Christians" are born again, bible believing, God loving, Jesus following people! That same polling company also found that only 10% of all Christian churches teach Calvinism, the other 90% teach Arminianism. I read that last year but didn't take note of which polling company it was but I think it was either Pew Research or Barna Research.
True humility comes when you open your eyes and let the living water flow out...john 7:37-38.....😭..........Revelation 7:17 says, "For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes". ..
That's not true at all. God CAN save anyone He wants and however He wants to. Arminians and Provisionists believe that God has chosen to save those who believe. That's His choice, and in no way does that take away from His glory.
let me get this straight about Calvinism Theology. Can some Calvinist answer an honest question. God was on his own in a perfect place with no evil or disease or pain or upset. Then he determined that he would create people. He dwelt with Adam and eve in the garden ,and declared they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; there would be no tears from their eyes, and death shall not take them, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain and he declared everything good and very good and then he preordained them to sin and the world to go into chaos and then decided that he would have to come to earth to die for the sins of the people so that people could live in a world where He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more. What a great Calvinist God we serve. Am i missing something?
Yes, man has the God-given ability to humble themselves before anything they choose to and for any reason. You can humble yourself before your wife, husband, children, friends, relatives, God, angels, demons, material objects (i.e. idols), etc.
@@gk.4102 If that is the case, how do you explain “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3: 11 Both of, you and the Word of God, can't be correct. One of you must be wrong. Who would it be?
@@nonconformist4802 how does Paul's use of Psalm 14 in Romans 3, where David spoke of the wicked or the fool specifically somehow then mean that all of us are wicked or fools? Paul is using David's words there to point out to the Jewish audience he's speaking to that just as the Gentiles were wicked they to, and even worse in some cases, were wicked. Paul's leveling the playing field, all are sinners, no one should boast about how wicked anyone else is compared to them, etc. and showing that salvation is by grace through faith, not the law. THAT is the context. Taking that passage as proof or understanding it as man having an inability to humble themselves is a misunderstanding of the passage IN CONTEXT.
@@nathanhellrung9810 _' by grace through faith, not the law. THAT is the context."_ Wrong, go read from verse 8 up to verse 14. Your claim is nothing but a deflection And with that frame God as the wrong one here.
@@nonconformist4802 What you're doing is called proof-texting. It's when you pluck a passage out of its Biblical and historical context and treat it in isolation from the rest of the Bible and create new dogmas from it. But if you do a little Bible study, you'd discover plenty of individuals and people repenting and turning to God (i.e. seeking after God). In Rom 3, Paul is quoting Psalms 14. He's giving a general description of the jews of his day who became hardened in their rebellion similar to the "fool" of Pslam 14:1. Paul is NOT giving an anthropology lesson of human nature from birth for all times and places. If I say "Egypt is an Islamic country", I'm giving a current general description of Egyptians. I'm NOT saying that all Egyptians throughout history and places are naturally born Muslims. Big difference! Lastly, giving a general description of the current state of a group is NOT the same as describing their natural abilities. If I say "the military personnel wears uniform", I'm not saying nor implying that the military personnel are born incapable of wearing anything else but the uniform. Of course they can and do wear other clothing, but generally speaking they wear uniforms.
1:09 The Calvinist "heart of stone" argument is TOTALLY out of context if you read that entire passage! Regarding Ezekiel 36; We should not ‘cherry-pick’ a verse or passage out of context to prop up some point of doctrine. Ezekiel 36 even begins with “Also”.. (continuation of chap.35. So, read the whole story) If one insists on Theistic Determinism or the Calvinist usage of this passage… none of it even makes any sense. It is NOT about individual salvation or soteriology. First, it would mean that God is blaming Israel for the evil he made them do. Then God makes their enemies rule over them in punishment, Then God blames their enemies for being too harsh, knowing they are Gods "chosen people". (Which brings into question in their mind "why God 'allows' them to abuse them at all.) Then God punishes their enemies for doing exactly what he determined them to do. So, then God restores Israel to save his own reputation from what he made others to think about what they observed..... That's insane.
Chapters 35-48 are all about hope in the new covenant: if it isn’t about regeneration, what is 36 about? The new “covenant of peace” with a Davidic Shepherd is referenced in 34 and in 37 it is called an “everlasting covenant.” What is the nature of the “new heart” in this New Covenant?
@@bradandrews8757 This passage in Ezekiel is another narrative about what happened as a result of Israel's rebellion and God's intervention. Because they continued defacing God's name even in their captivity, God defended his own reputation. It demonstrates God's character and his intention of performing his unilateral promise to Abraham regardless of Israel's failures, ..(all that is Israel it NOT Israel ).. God's promise was that all the world would be blessed in Abraham's seed.(singular).. which is Jesus who is the Christ. God was faced with a similar situation in the days of Noah. Men abandoned what they had known about him from their fathers fathers and God started over with Noah after Methuselah, who was dedicated in his faith, died. And again, at the tower of Babel, where mankind was advancing beyond God's desire, (they could achieve anything they could conceive), so, he confused their language and scattered them across the Earth to "Slow their Roll"... Later, when Rebecca and Jacob conceived twins... a choice was necessary for the linage of the the promised Christ and God decided it would be Jacob, the younger/lesser, to be the bloodline rather than Esau. It was not about individual salvation, or God's literal "hate" for one, but it was about Jesus. After, that in the wilderness, God even threatened to start over with Moses after the Golden Calf incident, (which would still have fulfilled the promise)... but Moses intreated him on the people's behalf and God relented He chose to destroy only those who did not stand with Moses/Joshua. "As for me and my house...Joshua 24:15." It's not that complicated. We should not impose doctrine upon the text. Just read it and recognize the story for what it is.
@ that's not what I was saying...and I should have said religious people, not sinners to start with. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. No a person saving someone is a very good thing no matter what. However if you are only doing it to gain salvation, it's the wrong reason. And Jesus is the only way so you can be good all day everyday to our standards and be filthy rags in his eyes bc we have all sinned and are in need of Jesus Christ our Savior. Hope this helps clear up what i meant. God bless.
What even is “provisionism”? The church never taught Calvinism for 1500 years. So please find a terminology which doesn’t imply it’s a recent man-made doctrine of 2000 years post-Christ. Because what you are describing is just an orthodox position in Christianity.
Provisionism is just a term that sums up a belief system. Sometimes I just tell people I'm a "John 3:16 Christian, I believe anyone can be saved because the Bible tells us God desires all people to be saved" I don't understand the problem.
Provisionism as enunciated by Annie Johnson Flint (1866 - 1932) . He giveth more grace as our burdens grow greater, He sendeth more strength as our labors increase; To added afflictions He addeth His mercy, To multiplied trials He multiplies peace . When we have exhausted our store of endurance, When our strength has failed ere the day is half done, When we reach the end of our hoarded resources Our Father’s full giving is only begun. . His love has no limits, His grace has no measure, His power no boundary known unto men; For out of His infinite riches in Jesus He giveth, and giveth, and giveth again.
What term would satisfy you? Biblical Christianity? Biblical Soteriology? As Leighton points out, it IS the belief that was held traditionally by the church. It is the plain understanding of scripture. Why are you objecting to a term that makes it clear what it stands for and distinguishes it from all the other claims to orthodoxy? You do realise that it's a term in modern English which didn't exist 2000 years ago so there IS no term we can pick from back then. Do you also realise they didn't NEED a term 2000 years ago because the current heresies didn't exist? You aren't being logical. You are being Quixotic.
when God declares that iniquity was FOUND in Satan, on calvisnism that means God hid it there then found it later? how ling did he wait? like an easter egg hunt? hide the thingy then walk around and pretend you dont know where it is until ... shazaam
Hmm, odd and makes no sense -to think my heart first has to be good to trust Him. Actually, I trusted/ believed many false things before I opened a Bible, which i literally carried around as a "good luck" charm. But then, in the desperate place, I found myself in... I finally cried out and opened to read... i finally knew Jesus was God, and He was good from the Scriptures, and I was Not... Believe/ trust, = then born again. ie. I trust i was Not born again prior to believing "in faith." He was Who He said He was.. "If" so how can you truly believe His Word is living and breathing, imo because that would make the Scriptures unnecessary🚩
Unless God causes you to be born again through the Scriptures (James 1:18). The Scriptures are necessary in both views. Not looking to argue, simply to clarify :)
@TwitchyTheologian no offense taken. I trust all of His Word from beginning to the end matters and must harmonize no contradictions with Him and He is logical! And humility plays a role. Religion will never save anyone.. i read this which i found to be profound the other day. "free will in faith; Is the essence of loving God" The truth does not have to be irresistibly given to be received. Colossians 2:23 NKJV - These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
The reason humbling yourself is "better" is because of God's response to it. It would be useless and stupid if God did not accept it and impute you with righteousness because of it. Notice that it is not good in itself, since goodness has to be imputed in response to it!
I think on this part of the conversation, maybe the word “Good“ was it appropriate because then it was used to try to destroy the argument. I believe what he was trying to say is that all those who have a stony heart cannot serve God neither can we please God. Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. But all those who have flesh hearts are the only ones, that can believe through faith that is a gift of God and not of yourself! Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Peace, my fellow humans!
No two ways about it...calvinism makes God the author of sin...in turn makes Christ sacrifice pointless...it's akin to me breaking your nose and fixing it and then saying "look how great I am"...and whether you care to admit it intellectually it makes God petulant child who needs to force people to worship him...and sadly this will probably be a to "simplistic " explanation for the "superior " calvinist argument....my answer to that is thank Father from hiding it from the learned.. .
@TwitchyTheologian at 3:55min mark - question begging proposition >> eisegesis. The Bible doesn't have any problem with being "better". Only Calvinists. Hebrews11:4 Proverbs16:8 Samuel1 15:28 The passage actually compares the prodigal son with a son that stayed home but has a calloused heart. You are a nice bloke but more committed to calvinism than scripture...
This calvinist must lie because he says new desires are proof of regeneration. This, to him, demonstrates a change of nature. However, if he sins, it is based, to him, in sinful desires. But if a nature is changed, there can no longer be desires after what he calls sin. He errs by putting morality in the desires rather than in choices. He places sin in the desires instead of transgression.
Leighton, if you are wrong, as I believe you are, why do you keep risking that you are preaching "another gospel"? You could spend your time focusing on evangelism or something better than shooting down Calvinists. After all, in this last 120 years of apostasy, nearly all Christians are Arminians, so you are pretty much preaching to the choir. Anyway, here is a short rebuttal to an Arminian that I wrote yesterday: Brother Trent, "God so loved the world" does not mean that God loved or loves everyone in a saving way. You must wrestle with Romans 9, where it says that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau.There is a double predestination, the elect and the reprobate. Who are you to question God? He could justly condemn to hell all of us unholy minuscule creatures, but He has mercy on a minority. Jump up and down for joy if He has chosen to save you! God saves by regenerating our fallen dead spirits with His Holy Spirit (John 3, Titus 3). He did this to John the Baptist in the womb (Lk 1:15)! This is how He saves the elect unborn that die or are killed, the elect infants and young children that die before having the capacity for faith, and the elect of unsound mind. In adults and many children of sound mind, regeneration brings saving faith. Faith itself is a gift (Eph 2:8-10). Your Arminian heresy (condemned as such by the Synod of Dort) has man as the final arbiter of salvation and thus he can boast in his humility or wisdom. God will have none of that! As well, Arminianism paints God with great injustice in how He has dealt with different people down through the ages. It paints God as a very partial God, which He absolutely is not! It presents faith as a work of man and therefore is "another gospel," which is really not another, and those preaching it warrant being cursed (Gal 1)! For more on the last 120 years of apostasy, go to FaithWriters dot com and search for my article: ANOTHER 120 YEAR COUNTDOWN TO GOD'S SECOND DAY OF WRATH
I'm tired of this kind of denial of self awareness and real choice! If you don't make your own choice you never made one period! God gives us all the necessary information and the undeniable LOVE which is the power that changes our hearts! Listen carefully..... I've never heard any Calvinist explain how God regenerates our hearts?? He does it through His own character and love through Jesus! I chose Jesus after God chose to reveal Him to me! He chose all His elect by choosing to give us a choice! End of discussion!!
how many heathen non hebrew pagans had regenerate hearts given by God in old testament? no gospel no Jesus no 10 commandments. make sure to square it with acts 17:27
Why does Leighton make all these videos against Calvinism since he still believes they are Christians? What does the Bible say against Calvinism? Galatians 1;8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be ACCURSED. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be ACCURSED.
So Calvinists preach another gospel? Really? We believe that God chooses us and we do not choose God. John 15:16 “You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.” John 15:19 “The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you.” John 6:65-66 “And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” We believe that some people are elected (predestined by God) to salvation. Rom 8:29 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Rom 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Eph 1:5 "He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." Eph 1:11 "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." We believe that God will NEVER abandon us. Hebrews 13:5 "John 6:65 “And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” Phl 1:6 'And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." We believe that there are people who have the devil as a father. John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies." Act 13:10 "and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?" 1John 3:10 "By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."
@@AVB2-LST1154 Spoken like a true cult member. John Calvin had his detractors arrested and in court pushed for the death penalty by burning at the stake. Sounds like a devilish thing to do. A bad tree can not produce good fruit.
If God can "make" us better,then why dont He?End of problem.With snap of fingers,without drama.And then no need that Jesus should have suffered for our transgessions.What is so difficult to understand that is whole point why Jesus died for us: To make us better,change us.Or more correctly ,His blood cover our sins,makes us acceptable to God.And doesnt it makes sense that when God created us,he would have created us with inability to sin- that is if you believe(a willful action!) in "cant choose" ideology. So it is logic to come to conclusion that we were created with one of few things that separates us from animal kingdom: we can choose. The complete old testament is abundant of examples were God allow people to do what they want.But with concequeces.Adam and Eve first example.Same with new testament,just remove your 500 year old calvinistic glasses.Which is human tradition. Calvinism is really playing with fire: It teach us you cant take responsibility for yourself,you cant be judged ever because no free will,no choice. Strange,Bible teach us judgement is coming.And judgement dont makes sense if you werent given chance to choose. I actually feel stupid by explaining something that can be resolved by good,plain common sense.
It's hard for me to take anything you say seriously when you dont believe in orignal sin. That's something that almost everyone agrees is true it's mostly the joel olssten type people who would not believe something like that.
@RevRydland I bet you think you just made a gotcha statement, but it's really a lack of understanding of who God is. God is God and since He is God every decree has to be morally perfect and good. Calvinism does teach, of course, that God's eternal decree is a binding verdict that set everything in motion toward a predetermined end, and God remains sovereign in the outworking of His providence. (Providence speaks of His purposeful care and management of everything He created). The decree is eternal, meaning it was issued before the foundation of the world. It is God's own sovereign fiat (authoritative edict). The word fiat is Latin for "let it be done." But He ordained the means as well as the end. In other words, God is not the direct cause ("the efficient cause") of all that He decreed. He is by no means a mere passive observer of unfolding events, nor is He subject to any higher or more determinate will than His own. But His "let it be done" is not necessarily the exact logical equivalent of "I Myself will do this." (See, for example, Job 1:12; 2:6.) But isn't it still the case that God's decree ultimately causes "whatsoever comes to pass"? Well, yes, in one sense. But there is more than one sense of the word cause. We rightly distinguish between efficient and final causes (sometimes labeled proximate and ultimate causes). These are not concepts made up on the fly for the benefit of dodging Arminian objections. The distinctions between various kinds of causes are long-established differentiations-elementary concepts of truth and logic that go back at least as far as Aristotle. Aristotle, for example, named four categories of cause: The Final Cause-that for the sake of which something happens The Efficient Cause-the agent whose action produces the effect The Material Cause-the substance that gives being to the effect The Formal Cause-the shape, pattern, definition, or species of the effect To illustrate that someone or something can be the "final cause" of an evil act and yet not be held morally responsible for it, consider these examples: My friend, without my consent, robs a bank to get money to help pay my medical bills. He is the efficient cause of the action. He is morally culpable. I am the final cause, the one for whose sake the thing was done, yet I am not morally culpable. My enemy, in a fit of rage over something I have done or said, goes on a wanton spree of vandalism. He is arrested, tried, and found guilty, because he is the efficient cause. Yet he continues to blame me for the episode. Indeed, I am the final cause-for he did this because of me. But I am not morally culpable. A car thief caught in a sting operation makes the futile plea that he is not guilty because he would never have stolen that car if the police had not left it unlocked with the keys in the ignition. Here the cops are absolutely the final cause, because they staged the opportunity for the crime in order to catch a ring of serial car thieves operating in the neighborhood. The thief himself is the efficient cause. He is also the only person in this scenario with evil intent. These are poor examples, but I hope it gives you understanding.
@@joelauretta4067 "I bet you think you just made a gotcha statement" Says the person who literally made a "gotcha statement" in their initial comment. Embarrassing.
@@joelauretta4067None of what you just said contradicts what RevRydland said. If all sin originates in the mind of God and occurs because God has decreed it to occur, then God is by definition the author of sin. Calvinists should just own it instead of trying to argue with it. It makes it sound like you don't like your own doctrine and are trying to make excuses for it.
I really appreciate you guys sharing this portion of the conversation. I think this portion of the convo depicts the fun time that we had while disagreeing as brothers in Christ.
I was very appreciative of your civil friendly discussion despite opposing view points. Very enjoyable conversation to listen to. Props to you for treating Leighton as a brother in Christ and providing a great example of respectful disagreement.
@@yourgamerguy4000thank you for the encouragement. I am hoping to have more of these conversations in the future. We need to have these brotherly disagreements but at the same time we need to be able to work together to spread the Gospel. That’s my goal anyways. Thanks again for the encouragement.
❤
God bless you brother and your ministry. To God be all the Glory!
I think one of the disconnects that Calvinists have is that they essentially argue as if us believing saves us, or that it CAUSES us to be saved, or that it's a good work. The problem with that is not only is scripture clear that faith, simply believing in Christ and putting our trust in Him, is the opposite of a good work. Humbly admitting one cannot save themselves is not salvific. It's the opposite. It's saying we cannot save ourselves, so we throw ourselves at the mercy of God to be saved by Him. And that choice to do so doesn't force or cause God to save us. Without God's choice and action to save our trusting in Him, being humble, etc. would not save us. It's a non-issue really. And Leighton is right, that in all actuality it's under the Calvinistic framework that man is made better in order to believe whereas under our view all men have this ability to believe and those who do so make the better choice but it's not salvific or meritorious. God's choice is not based on our righteousness but on Christ's righteousness, which we benefit from by being in Him, which happens through baptism of the Spirit, where we are buried with Him and then raised with Him THROUGH faith. Faith is merely the means by which we access His grace, not the means by which it is accomplished and therefore we cannot say that we are better than the sinner as they had the same ability we did and that choice is not salvific.
Fantastic points 🙌
DW: Good points!
From my perspective the Calvinists relationship to "belief" is that he sees it in scripture as a NECESSARY CONDITION of salvation.
And that directly contradicts his doctrine which stipulates every person's salvation is FIXED before they are born
The doctrine stipulates only one NECESSARY CONDITION for salvation .......an infallible decree which occurs before any human is created and thus before the act of "belief" is even possible.
So the Calvinist - is forced to try to get a square peg (his doctrine) to fit into a round hole (Scripture).
In order to make Calvinism *APPEAR* Biblical - they have to somehow incorporate "belief" into it
Making "belief" *APPEAR* to be a NECESSARY CONDITION - but not really because that contradicts the doctrine
Trying to get one square peg after another - to fit into round holes - explains why Calvinists are always dreaming up new AD-HOC inventions
Thank you! This is my view but so well expressed I wish I could copy and repeat it when needed.
@@dw6528 Thank you for your "fellowship" recently in relationship to disputing Calvinism. I have really appreciated your thoughts and comments.
@@GrahameGould Thank you! Feel free! Per your good discretion. :-]
That answer about the difference between worldly good and spiritual good was spot on. ❤
Sigh. I’m at a point where I can’t even listen to Calvinists anymore.
Not even me? I thought I was fun and entertaining? 😂
I’m certainly getting there. It’s exhausting.
@@TwitchyTheologian Sorry, nope. I can’t with people who malign the character of God and basically make Him the moral equivalent of a guy who breeds puppies to torture some and snuggle others.
@@amyk87 yea I’d hate it if someone believed that too. 😂. Don’t be so cage stage, my friend.
Btw, I wonder why God keeps using Calvinists who “Malign His character” (Wes Huff, Doug Wilson, Adoniram Judson, Me…)?
Could it be that we are actually Christians?
@TwitchyTheologian I never said you weren’t Christians. God uses all kinds of people to advance His word, even ones who base their theology on the thoughts of a twisted murderer like John Calvin. I’m definitely not wasting my precious time debating your bad theology with you. I’ll just pray God opens your eyes to His loving character. Take care.
Imagine Jesus offering rest and peace to those who come to Him and then this guy comes behind Jesus and corrects the Lords theology
That was a very good response about knowing thar hubbleness is good because the Bible taught us that. I didn't even think of that.
Amen we can choose to accept or reject Him and humility is difficult for most people. But our Lord is good, He has promised to save those that call upon Him. Our Rock and our Salvation.
Where does scripture say or indicate that you have the ability to choose or reject ? How prideful
@@joelauretta4067
"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live". Deuteronomy 30:19
@benjaminofperrin
Context, context, context. That verse has nothing to do with mans ability to choose God for salvation. It's not a salvific verse.
@@joelauretta4067 One it is about the salvation of a people and two it defeats Calvinism in a single verse. Man has the ability to accept or reject God. Calvinism is false.
@@joelauretta4067Good question! My understanding is that God works to give every human being the opportunity to accept or reject salvation that come through faith. God then gets all of the glory.
My personal experience is a little different than you described. I believed in Christ almost all my life, I was never an atheist or anything, but I was prideful, followed my own ideas of what Christ was, it was not until my early 40's a few years ago that I put a full trust into God. I believed for years without any regeneration, and once I said I can't do this on my own I need help and will follow it, is when I was regenerated/born a new, and that is when I started feeling the presence and guidance from God. It was more than a belief, more than praying every day, which I have done for years. It seems God was happy with me being lost until I made the clear choice, to seek his help, and submit to his guidance. And that was a clear choice I had to make, and voice to Him, because once I did everything started changing spiritually for me.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." Sometimes God draws people slowly for years and then when the time is right He completes what He started years before. Others were ambivalent about spiritual things until a crisis comes up (GOD LOVES to bring a crisis into our lives) and He draws us to Him quickly.
@@AVB2-LST1154 But God draws everyone through the gospel, it is their choice if they trust it or not.
@@colmortimer1066 So we choose God. I wonder why there are over 60 New Testament passages that say God chooses us, has chosen us, elected us, predestined us, gave us to Jesus and so forth?
Romans 3:11 says "No one seeks for God..." which is a quote from Psalm 14:2-3 and Psalm 53:2-3 yet millions of non-Calvinists claim that we choose God!
Who is the 'us'? Believers or pre-believers/unbelievers? Surely the us is believers? then we can't have an issues with that group being elect, predestined, chosen, etc, right? There is a vast difference between 'us' being those who believe, and the 'us' being those random few God chose before the foundation of the earth, that are the 'us' even before they believed.
It pleases God to save those who believe...it doesnt say it pleases God to save those He chose to believe.
@@AVB2-LST1154 Maybe you should watch Dr. Flowers instead of being trapped in your own arrogance.
Is God a liar? Because it is very clear He wants us all to repent and be saved...to choose to believe in him and to love him...we will need help to truly be transformed. But the gospel is sufficient to convert us. Or if you are a Calvinist the gospel is useless as God chose you, from the beginning of time. And He lies when He pretends he loves us all and wants us to love him back.
All though the bible people are told to quit sinning, to choose to follow Him. Don't let your pride lead you, let love, and humility lead you.
One believes God chooses some for salvation and rejects all others. The other believes that God reaches out to everyone, and whosoever responds in humility receives His salvation.
DW: YES! The Calvinist - per the doctrine - lives in a radically different world
In the NON-Calvinist world
1) ALTERNATIVES exist within creation (SIN vs NOT SIN for example)
2) Humans are granted CHOICE between those ALTERNATIVES
3) That CHOICE is *UP TO* the human to make
In Calvinism - per the doctrine - ALTERNATIVES do not exist within creation.
The very existence of any ALTERNATIVE would falsify the doctrine of decrees
Therefore - Calvinists are not granted CHOICE between ALTERNATIVE options
Nothing within creation is granted to option to BE or DO OTHER than that which was decreed
For every human event - and every human impulse - the decree grants only *ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION*
And the creature is granted NO SAY in the matter of what that option will be - and no ability to refrain.
That is why humans are not granted a CHOICE in the matter of salvation in Calvinism
They are not granted CHOICE in the matter of anything - because ALTERNATIVES do not exist for them to choose.
Blessings!
We do not have a literal heart of stone, God does not literally give us a new heart. You can't take figurative language and base your whole worldview on it.
It's like being dead in sin. The unbeliever is not literally dead, it is a figure of speech.
But, if you are gonna use that arguement, you accept that you are talking about being given a new heart, being reborn, being given new life. Jesus said 'by believing you may have life.' John 20:31. Paul said in Colossians you are raised with him through faith.
So even that arguement doesn't stand against Biblical scrutiny.
No offense, but is this brother on the payroll of soteriology 101 to be a weak argument?
I'm only partially joking.
These new short versions of your information are excellent!
Concise and to the point.
Thank you
I am. They paid me 100$ to pretend to be a Calvinist lol 😂
I love poor twitchy and I hope he comes to realize the truth .
@DigoryCavor about what my friend ?
The entire conversation was a bit frustrating. Twitch just continually asserts what he believes and doesn’t substantiate them and largely handwaved Doc’s responses. Dr Flowers continually compared scripture with scripture. Praying for both.
Sorry you felt that way. I felt like there were moments that I explained why I believe what I believe. I’ll try to do better.
@ keep on keepin on. I don’t deny your heart. God bless you.
@@RedeemedRogueMoleculesappreciate it. God bless you too. ❤
Making a better choice....does not mean a better man. God makes the man...better. AFTER belief. Calvinism is dangerously close to putting all blame on God for a person who remains lost in their sins after hearing the Gospel. The non Calvinist says its the mans fault for not believing in the Gospel. The Calvinist says(indirectly) its Gods fault for not flipping the mans switch to believe the Gospel.
Right. Ultimately the man's unwillingness to believe which is due to their nature is God's fault because the nature man has was determined by God for them to have. Man has no real responsibility under Calvinism. Calvinists misinterpret Paul in Romans 9 to answer for this clear problem. We push back and are told we are arguing against God. It makes having reasonable discussions with Calvinists very difficult.
Correct! In Calvinism - the option to believe in Christ - does not exist as an option for the NON-Elect
The impulse to believe is CONTRARY to the decree
And that which is CONTRARY to the decree is not granted existence within creation
So the impulse to believe does not exist for the NON-Elect
Thus the NON-Elect are held responsible for not having that which did not exist for them to have
And held responsible for not choosing things which do not exist for them to choose.
This is exactly what we would expect to see - when anyone tries to force extra biblical concepts into scripture
Not dangerously close, that is exactly what it means even though they deny it. But logically it is impossible to deny it based on what they DO affirm.
However, I have never met a logical Calvinist. As soon as a Calvinist starts being logical, they stop being a Calvinist. And that starts with humbling YOURSELF!
Does God get credit for man believing?
@@GrahameGould DW: Yes you are correct! Calvinists are heavily reliant on Rhetorical devices - such as re-defining words in order to make those words fit into their system - where those words do not fit with that word's standard and and commonly understood definition.
Words like "Permission" and "Choice" for example.
John Calvin
-quote
When [Augustine] uses the term PERMISSION, the *meaning which he attaches to it* will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of god is the supreme and primary * CAUSE* of all things….(Institutes 1, 16, 8)
So the Calvinist uses the term "Permit" as a replacement word for CAUSE
1) What Calvin's god CAUSES by infallible decree - he permits
2) What Calvin's god does NOT CAUSE by infallible decree he does not permit
So here the word "Permission" is given an INVERTED meaning.
In Calvinism - there is no such thing as CHOICE between CONTRARY options - because the very existence of a CONTRARY option would falsify the doctrine of decrees.
Never the less - Calvinists are always using the word CHOICE *AS-IF* they are granted CHOICE between CONTRARY options
So you are correct! Calvinists use language to make things *APPEAR* to exist within the doctrine which do not LOGICALLY exist.
LOGIC doesn't give them what they want.
Blessings!
Something that continually astounds me generally in life is how intelligent people can have have such a disconnect with plain simple logic. Calvinism is the most obvious example of this phenomenon I know.
So what "disconnect with plain simple logic" do Calvinists have? I guess you believe that God is always logical and always makes sense. So lets see what the bible has to say about being logical and being a Christian.
If you want to become wise, become a fool. “If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.” 1 Cor 3:18-19
If you want to be rich sell everything you have and give it to the poor. “Then Jesus, said to him, “Go sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…" Matt 19:21
Lose so you can gain! “For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ.” Philippians 3:8
If you want to be exalted, humble yourself. “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.” James. 4:10
If you want to be first, be last. “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” Matthew 20:16
If you want to be strong, be weak. “For when I am weak, then I am strong.” 2 Corinthians 12:10
If you want to be free, become a slave. “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” Romans 6:22
Matthew 16:25 “If you want to live, you must die. “For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”
2 Cor 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
@@AVB2-LST1154 being a fool in 1 Corinthians 3 is in the context of being contrasted with the wisdom of the world. This has to do with people like the philosophers of Athens. Paul is not saying that we are to be stupid or foolish but that the simple message of the cross is considered foolish among the high minded worldly wisdom seekers. To them the simple message of the cross is foolish, too simple.
[1] Not one verse of scripture is needed to refute and debunk Calvinism, and [2] Calvinists do not own a pair of big boy pants.
I’m not sure why you are so rude all the time 😂.
@@TwitchyTheologian --- [01] Please explain to the class how and why observations, criticisms and sound logical arguments exposing the unbiblical nature of Reformed Theology’s presuppositions, unestablished claims, doctrines and apologetic is rude?, and [02] if Calvinists had big-boy panties they would not run away like frightened little girls when confronted with the truths involved in [01]!!!!!, and [03] condescending reply comments, ad hominem attacks, hate speech, psychological abuse, and deleting a critics comments, from Calvinists, directed toward non-Calvinists who are doing [01], are not arguments; but they seem to be the only thing Calvinists know to do. Why is that????????, and [04] I never, ever, see a Calvinist attack/correct another Calvinist for the intellectual dishonesty they ubiquitously exhibit in [03] Why is that????? And [05] why do Calvinists think they can command respect when they concoct a thousand excuses so they can run away like frightened little girls from perfectly legitimate observation, criticisms and arguments??????
As to the video, you never heard one word Dr. Flowers said because you were too busy looking for a gotcha moment.
.
@@JohnQPublic11Is everything stated from Revelation 21:9-18 determined before the foundation of the world?
@@ChristIsKing777-hr9ki --- No!
@@JohnQPublic11 How do you know that?
Appreciate Leighton and his teaching and so my question is to increase my own understanding more than disagreement. Why can’t God be given credit for being behind the decision the younger brother makes to humble himself and go home to his father? It seems like there is too high of a need to say his decision to return home was not a good decision.
4.00 - What if there were 2 brothers, and before creation God elected one for salvation, and the other for damnation, eternal concious suffering, punishment and torment?
And all this even though the 1st did not come to God in humility, and the 2nd brother wasn't afforded the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ.
Even though we are told God doesn't show favouritism.
God shows favoritism. Deu 7:6 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a SPECIAL PEOPLE unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." 1 Peter 1:9 "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own SPECIAL PEOPLE, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."
There are two kinds of people on earth the wicked and the righteous, born again and natural, children of the devil and children of God.
When the Israelites moved into the promised land did God say "I love everyone including the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, so go tell them that God loves them and has a wonder plan for their lives." Uh, not quite here is what He said: Deut 7:1-3 “When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and UTTERLY DESTROY THEM.”
@AVB2-LST1154 That was not a show of unconditional favouritism.
It's not me saying God doesn't show favouritism, it's the Bible.
@@paulmann9154
_"It's not me saying God doesn't show favouritism, it's the Bible"_
Then anyone who do believe in the Bible must be practitioners of the Alexandrian cult.
Clearly the Bible said on one side "Few are chosen" and on the other side "there is no respect of persons with God."_
So what is now the real answer if you can tell?
@@nonconformist4802 I don't follow your logic. In your previous post, you talk about God's chosen people driving out other nations.
Why where Israel God's chosen people? A random choice of God showing favouritism? No.
God made a promise to Abraham because he had faith and trusted God, he made mistakes, but God rewarded his faith.
And the nations he drove out were all peacefull, just, godly nations? No.
They were wicked people who deserved God's wrath. Simple.
GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVOURITISM. He rewards faith. Even faith from sinners.
@@paulmann9154 The two passages I quoted show unconditional favoritism and BOTH are in the bible.
If my heart was made good before i believe in Christ, then i don't really need Christ to begin with. I've got a good heart now. 🙄🤦♂️
Calvinism makes a mess of scripture
Yep, the exact opposite order of what scripture says in SO many places.
@@GrahameGould How about an example of one.
Hello my fellow human! You are right God determined everything from beginning to end,
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
He chose who were to be saved, and are written in the book of life.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Also apparently threatened those who were in the book of life, that He would remove some of them from the book of life.
Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
But He won’t do it because God is perfect and doesn’t make mistakes. That is his character. So who are you o man?? “That’s a Bible verse by the way”
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
God also determined those who will not be in the book of life before the constitution of the world!
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Therefore, I believe in double predestination!!!
Peace, my fellow humans❤️
Hey Leighton, still learning about the various systematic theologies. Where does sin nature fall into this view? Are we condemned because of a sin nature inherited at birth in and of itself or are we separated because of the first act of sin we commit? Sorry still learning, only been born again about 2 years. Thanks for all the work you put in.
I'm not Leighton, but here's my take.
Sin nature is human proclivity to sin. We're born fallen (i.e. experiencing the curse of sin) but not guilty of Adam's sin. We become guilty when we commit sin.
@@gk.4102 So when we willingly choose to cave to our sin nature and commit sin is when we are condemned. Is that what you are suggesting?
It is precisely what the bible teaches. It is very clear on the matter. But sin you will as it IS in your nature.
@@ryanhughes9397 Yes.
Don’t take anyone’s word for it. Just read Romans 5. It’s pretty straightforward
I was a Calvinist pastor for 20 years. I left Calvinism 1 1/2 years ago. To this day I shake my head and I am dumbfounded as to how I ever believed in the Calvinist view of things. I have come to the conclusion that it is a very logical system in and of itself, but Scripture, which is logical, destroys Calvinism. I think Calvinism holds up only when you take a select number of verses out of context and you fit every other verse through that system, but that is not how we are to read Scripture.
So what scriptures "destroy" Calvinism?
@@AVB2-LST1154
First things first - I am not a Calvinist or see myself as one. Please bear with me.
They don't really have not scriptures to refute Calvinism, they normally used things that Calvin has said or believe as evidence against the group.
But scriptures they love to use against Calvinist is as follows:
2 Peter 2:1 "He died for all"
2 Peter 3: 9 "It is the will of the Lord that all should come to repentance"
But we can't ignore the following:
Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"
Ephesians 1: 11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"
So yes God died for all, and would love that all come to repentance. I had to believe that, but I can't ignore: "For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22: 14
@@nonconformist4802 Agreed 100%. If Christ died for "all the sins of all the world" that means that the sin of unbelief has been paid for 100%. Two things prevent people from going to Hell, unbelief and sin and BOTH have been taken care of so EVERYONE goes to heaven! Those 50 or so passages about Hell that Jesus warned us about? He must have been kidding.
@@AVB2-LST1154
Amen
@@nonconformist4802 Quote " I am not a Calvinist or see myself as one." I LIKE THAT! I am going to use that to describe my personal belief system, and you are right, non-Calvinists know they can't disprove "Calvinistic beliefs" since they are straight from scripture so they attack Calvin's writings. Good point there bro.
Something that is interesting. According to a recent poll only about 10% of people who describe themselves as "Christians" are born again, bible believing, God loving, Jesus following people! That same polling company also found that only 10% of all Christian churches teach Calvinism, the other 90% teach Arminianism. I read that last year but didn't take note of which polling company it was but I think it was either Pew Research or Barna Research.
True humility comes when you open your eyes and let the living water flow out...john 7:37-38.....😭..........Revelation 7:17 says, "For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes". ..
Provisionist and Arminians really believe that God can't save anyone without that person's permission. Which takes away from God's glory, Isaiah 42:8.
That's not true at all. God CAN save anyone He wants and however He wants to. Arminians and Provisionists believe that God has chosen to save those who believe. That's His choice, and in no way does that take away from His glory.
let me get this straight about Calvinism Theology.
Can some Calvinist answer an honest question.
God was on his own in a perfect place with no evil or disease or pain or upset. Then he determined that he would create people. He dwelt with Adam and eve in the garden ,and declared they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; there would be no tears from their eyes, and death shall not take them, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain and he declared everything good and very good and then he preordained them to sin and the world to go into chaos and then decided that he would have to come to earth to die for the sins of the people so that people could live in a world where He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more.
What a great Calvinist God we serve.
Am i missing something?
Choice?
So can a man humble himself before the living God out of his own nature, his own mind and will, or not?
Yes, man has the God-given ability to humble themselves before anything they choose to and for any reason. You can humble yourself before your wife, husband, children, friends, relatives, God, angels, demons, material objects (i.e. idols), etc.
@@gk.4102
If that is the case, how do you explain “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3: 11
Both of, you and the Word of God, can't be correct. One of you must be wrong.
Who would it be?
@@nonconformist4802 how does Paul's use of Psalm 14 in Romans 3, where David spoke of the wicked or the fool specifically somehow then mean that all of us are wicked or fools? Paul is using David's words there to point out to the Jewish audience he's speaking to that just as the Gentiles were wicked they to, and even worse in some cases, were wicked. Paul's leveling the playing field, all are sinners, no one should boast about how wicked anyone else is compared to them, etc. and showing that salvation is by grace through faith, not the law. THAT is the context. Taking that passage as proof or understanding it as man having an inability to humble themselves is a misunderstanding of the passage IN CONTEXT.
@@nathanhellrung9810
_' by grace through faith, not the law. THAT is the context."_
Wrong, go read from verse 8 up to verse 14. Your claim is nothing but a deflection And with that frame God as the wrong one here.
@@nonconformist4802 What you're doing is called proof-texting. It's when you pluck a passage out of its Biblical and historical context and treat it in isolation from the rest of the Bible and create new dogmas from it.
But if you do a little Bible study, you'd discover plenty of individuals and people repenting and turning to God (i.e. seeking after God).
In Rom 3, Paul is quoting Psalms 14. He's giving a general description of the jews of his day who became hardened in their rebellion similar to the "fool" of Pslam 14:1. Paul is NOT giving an anthropology lesson of human nature from birth for all times and places.
If I say "Egypt is an Islamic country", I'm giving a current general description of Egyptians. I'm NOT saying that all Egyptians throughout history and places are naturally born Muslims. Big difference!
Lastly, giving a general description of the current state of a group is NOT the same as describing their natural abilities. If I say "the military personnel wears uniform", I'm not saying nor implying that the military personnel are born incapable of wearing anything else but the uniform. Of course they can and do wear other clothing, but generally speaking they wear uniforms.
1:09 The Calvinist "heart of stone" argument is TOTALLY out of context if you read that entire passage!
Regarding Ezekiel 36; We should not ‘cherry-pick’ a verse or passage out of context to prop up some point of doctrine. Ezekiel 36 even begins with “Also”.. (continuation of chap.35. So, read the whole story) If one insists on Theistic Determinism or the Calvinist usage of this passage… none of it even makes any sense. It is NOT about individual salvation or soteriology.
First, it would mean that God is blaming Israel for the evil he made them do.
Then God makes their enemies rule over them in punishment,
Then God blames their enemies for being too harsh, knowing they are Gods "chosen people".
(Which brings into question in their mind "why God 'allows' them to abuse them at all.)
Then God punishes their enemies for doing exactly what he determined them to do.
So, then God restores Israel to save his own reputation from what he made others to think about what they observed..... That's insane.
Chapters 35-48 are all about hope in the new covenant: if it isn’t about regeneration, what is 36 about?
The new “covenant of peace” with a Davidic Shepherd is referenced in 34 and in 37 it is called an “everlasting covenant.” What is the nature of the “new heart” in this New Covenant?
@@bradandrews8757 This passage in Ezekiel is another narrative about what happened as a result of Israel's rebellion and God's intervention. Because they continued defacing God's name even in their captivity, God defended his own reputation. It demonstrates God's character and his intention of performing his unilateral promise to Abraham regardless of Israel's failures, ..(all that is Israel it NOT Israel ).. God's promise was that all the world would be blessed in Abraham's seed.(singular).. which is Jesus who is the Christ.
God was faced with a similar situation in the days of Noah. Men abandoned what they had known about him from their fathers fathers and God started over with Noah after Methuselah, who was dedicated in his faith, died.
And again, at the tower of Babel, where mankind was advancing beyond God's desire,
(they could achieve anything they could conceive), so, he confused their language and scattered them across the Earth to "Slow their Roll"...
Later, when Rebecca and Jacob conceived twins... a choice was necessary for the linage of the the promised Christ and God decided it would be Jacob, the younger/lesser, to be the bloodline rather than Esau. It was not about individual salvation, or God's literal "hate" for one, but it was about Jesus.
After, that in the wilderness, God even threatened to start over with Moses after the Golden Calf incident, (which would still have fulfilled the promise)... but Moses intreated him on the people's behalf and God relented He chose to destroy only those who did not stand with Moses/Joshua. "As for me and my house...Joshua 24:15."
It's not that complicated. We should not impose doctrine upon the text. Just read it and recognize the story for what it is.
Sinners that don't have Jesus do good works but for the wrong reasons
Where does the Bible say this? If an unbeliever rescues her child from drowning, is her not wanting her son to die a bad reason?
@ that's not what I was saying...and I should have said religious people, not sinners to start with. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. No a person saving someone is a very good thing no matter what. However if you are only doing it to gain salvation, it's the wrong reason. And Jesus is the only way so you can be good all day everyday to our standards and be filthy rags in his eyes bc we have all sinned and are in need of Jesus Christ our Savior. Hope this helps clear up what i meant. God bless.
What even is “provisionism”? The church never taught Calvinism for 1500 years. So please find a terminology which doesn’t imply it’s a recent man-made doctrine of 2000 years post-Christ. Because what you are describing is just an orthodox position in Christianity.
Provisionism is just a term that sums up a belief system.
Sometimes I just tell people I'm a "John 3:16 Christian, I believe anyone can be saved because the Bible tells us God desires all people to be saved"
I don't understand the problem.
Provisionism as enunciated by Annie Johnson Flint (1866 - 1932)
.
He giveth more grace as our burdens grow greater,
He sendeth more strength as our labors increase;
To added afflictions He addeth His mercy,
To multiplied trials He multiplies peace
.
When we have exhausted our store of endurance,
When our strength has failed ere the day is half done,
When we reach the end of our hoarded resources
Our Father’s full giving is only begun.
.
His love has no limits, His grace has no measure,
His power no boundary known unto men;
For out of His infinite riches in Jesus
He giveth, and giveth, and giveth again.
What term would satisfy you? Biblical Christianity? Biblical Soteriology?
As Leighton points out, it IS the belief that was held traditionally by the church. It is the plain understanding of scripture.
Why are you objecting to a term that makes it clear what it stands for and distinguishes it from all the other claims to orthodoxy?
You do realise that it's a term in modern English which didn't exist 2000 years ago so there IS no term we can pick from back then. Do you also realise they didn't NEED a term 2000 years ago because the current heresies didn't exist?
You aren't being logical. You are being Quixotic.
when God declares that iniquity was FOUND in Satan, on calvisnism that means God hid it there then found it later? how ling did he wait? like an easter egg hunt? hide the thingy then walk around and pretend you dont know where it is until ... shazaam
the Boy returning is already a son
Hmm, odd and makes no sense -to think my heart first has to be good to trust Him. Actually, I trusted/ believed many false things before I opened a Bible, which i literally carried around as a "good luck" charm. But then, in the desperate place, I found myself in... I finally cried out and opened to read... i finally knew Jesus was God, and He was good from the Scriptures, and I was Not...
Believe/ trust, = then born again. ie. I trust i was Not born again prior to believing "in faith." He was Who He said He was.. "If" so how can you truly believe His Word is living and breathing, imo because that would make the Scriptures unnecessary🚩
Unless God causes you to be born again through the Scriptures (James 1:18). The Scriptures are necessary in both views. Not looking to argue, simply to clarify :)
@TwitchyTheologian no offense taken. I trust all of His Word from beginning to the end matters and must harmonize no contradictions with Him and He is logical! And humility plays a role. Religion will never save anyone.. i read this which i found to be profound the other day. "free will in faith;
Is the essence of loving God"
The truth does not have to be irresistibly given to be received.
Colossians 2:23 NKJV - These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
The reason humbling yourself is "better" is because of God's response to it. It would be useless and stupid if God did not accept it and impute you with righteousness because of it.
Notice that it is not good in itself, since goodness has to be imputed in response to it!
True!
1:48 everyone has a bad heart. What's he talking about? Why wouldn't Jesus just GIVE everyone a good heart.
I think on this part of the conversation, maybe the word “Good“ was it appropriate because then it was used to try to destroy the argument. I believe what he was trying to say is that all those who have a stony heart cannot serve God neither can we please God.
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
But all those who have flesh hearts are the only ones, that can believe through faith that is a gift of God and not of yourself!
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Peace, my fellow humans!
Just tried correcting my spelling there.
For some reason it wont accept it.
Oh well, you get the gist of it😅
Is everything stated from Revelation 21:9-18 determined before the foundation of the world?
No two ways about it...calvinism makes God the author of sin...in turn makes Christ sacrifice pointless...it's akin to me breaking your nose and fixing it and then saying "look how great I am"...and whether you care to admit it intellectually it makes God petulant child who needs to force people to worship him...and sadly this will probably be a to "simplistic " explanation for the "superior " calvinist argument....my answer to that is thank Father from hiding it from the learned..
.
Y’all heard him
Provisionism conflates the new birth and sanctification…. Text book Romanism
@TwitchyTheologian at 3:55min mark - question begging proposition >> eisegesis.
The Bible doesn't have any problem with being "better". Only Calvinists. Hebrews11:4 Proverbs16:8 Samuel1 15:28
The passage actually compares the prodigal son with a son that stayed home but has a calloused heart.
You are a nice bloke but more committed to calvinism than scripture...
The greek word used for regeneration in the Bible, means new birth? That's being born again, saved!
The born again word he refers to comes from the Greek word for dog
This calvinist must lie because he says new desires are proof of regeneration. This, to him, demonstrates a change of nature. However, if he sins, it is based, to him, in sinful desires. But if a nature is changed, there can no longer be desires after what he calls sin.
He errs by putting morality in the desires rather than in choices. He places sin in the desires instead of transgression.
Morality is in the desires because sinful desires exists
Leighton, if you are wrong, as I believe you are, why do you keep risking that you are preaching "another gospel"? You could spend your time focusing on evangelism or something better than shooting down Calvinists. After all, in this last 120 years of apostasy, nearly all Christians are Arminians, so you are pretty much preaching to the choir. Anyway, here is a short rebuttal to an Arminian that I wrote yesterday:
Brother Trent, "God so loved the world" does not mean that God loved or loves everyone in a saving way. You must wrestle with Romans 9, where it says that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau.There is a double predestination, the elect and the reprobate. Who are you to question God? He could justly condemn to hell all of us unholy minuscule creatures, but He has mercy on a minority. Jump up and down for joy if He has chosen to save you! God saves by regenerating our fallen dead spirits with His Holy Spirit (John 3, Titus 3). He did this to John the Baptist in the womb (Lk 1:15)! This is how He saves the elect unborn that die or are killed, the elect infants and young children that die before having the capacity for faith, and the elect of unsound mind. In adults and many children of sound mind, regeneration brings saving faith. Faith itself is a gift (Eph 2:8-10). Your Arminian heresy (condemned as such by the Synod of Dort) has man as the final arbiter of salvation and thus he can boast in his humility or wisdom. God will have none of that! As well, Arminianism paints God with great injustice in how He has dealt with different people down through the ages. It paints God as a very partial God, which He absolutely is not! It presents faith as a work of man and therefore is "another gospel," which is really not another, and those preaching it warrant being cursed (Gal 1)!
For more on the last 120 years of apostasy, go to FaithWriters dot com and search for my article:
ANOTHER 120 YEAR COUNTDOWN TO GOD'S SECOND DAY OF WRATH
I'm tired of this kind of denial of self awareness and real choice! If you don't make your own choice you never made one period! God gives us all the necessary information and the undeniable LOVE which is the power that changes our hearts! Listen carefully.....
I've never heard any Calvinist explain how God regenerates our hearts?? He does it through His own character and love through Jesus! I chose Jesus after God chose to reveal Him to me!
He chose all His elect by choosing to give us a choice! End of discussion!!
So you sought for God? Romans 3:11 "No one seeks for God..." Either you are wrong or God is.
how many heathen non hebrew pagans had regenerate hearts given by God in old testament? no gospel no Jesus no 10 commandments. make sure to square it with acts 17:27
Why does Leighton make all these videos against Calvinism since he still believes they are Christians? What does the Bible say against Calvinism? Galatians 1;8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be ACCURSED. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be ACCURSED.
So Calvinists preach another gospel? Really? We believe that God chooses us and we do not choose God. John 15:16 “You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.” John 15:19 “The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you.” John 6:65-66 “And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
We believe that some people are elected (predestined by God) to salvation. Rom 8:29 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
Rom 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Eph 1:5 "He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."
Eph 1:11 "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
We believe that God will NEVER abandon us. Hebrews 13:5 "John 6:65 “And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” Phl 1:6 'And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
We believe that there are people who have the devil as a father. John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies." Act 13:10 "and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?" 1John 3:10 "By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."
@@AVB2-LST1154 Spoken like a true cult member. John Calvin had his detractors arrested and in court pushed for the death penalty by burning at the stake. Sounds like a devilish thing to do. A bad tree can not produce good fruit.
If God can "make" us better,then why dont He?End of problem.With snap of fingers,without drama.And then no need that Jesus should have suffered for our transgessions.What is so difficult to understand that is whole point why Jesus died for us: To make us better,change us.Or more correctly ,His blood cover our sins,makes us acceptable to God.And doesnt it makes sense that when God created us,he would have created us with inability to sin- that is if you believe(a willful action!) in "cant choose" ideology.
So it is logic to come to conclusion that we were created with one of few things that separates us from animal kingdom: we can choose.
The complete old testament is abundant of examples were God allow people to do what they want.But with concequeces.Adam and Eve first example.Same with new testament,just remove your 500 year old calvinistic glasses.Which is human tradition.
Calvinism is really playing with fire: It teach us you cant take responsibility for yourself,you cant be judged ever because no free will,no choice.
Strange,Bible teach us judgement is coming.And judgement dont makes sense if you werent given chance to choose.
I actually feel stupid by explaining something that can be resolved by good,plain common sense.
Modern day Remonstrant.
It's hard for me to take anything you say seriously when you dont believe in orignal sin. That's something that almost everyone agrees is true it's mostly the joel olssten type people who would not believe something like that.
I think you mean PSA.
Nobody prior to Augustine believed in original sin, and it's nowhere to be found in scripture.
Armenianism the sovereignty of Man,😂
And Calvinism makes God the author of evil
@RevRydland
I bet you think you just made a gotcha statement, but it's really a lack of understanding of who God is. God is God and since He is God every decree has to be morally perfect and good.
Calvinism does teach, of course, that God's eternal decree is a binding verdict that set everything in motion toward a predetermined end, and God remains sovereign in the outworking of His providence. (Providence speaks of His purposeful care and management of everything He created). The decree is eternal, meaning it was issued before the foundation of the world. It is God's own sovereign fiat (authoritative edict). The word fiat is Latin for "let it be done."
But He ordained the means as well as the end. In other words, God is not the direct cause ("the efficient cause") of all that He decreed. He is by no means a mere passive observer of unfolding events, nor is He subject to any higher or more determinate will than His own. But His "let it be done" is not necessarily the exact logical equivalent of "I Myself will do this." (See, for example, Job 1:12; 2:6.)
But isn't it still the case that God's decree ultimately causes "whatsoever comes to pass"?
Well, yes, in one sense. But there is more than one sense of the word cause. We rightly distinguish between efficient and final causes (sometimes labeled proximate and ultimate causes). These are not concepts made up on the fly for the benefit of dodging Arminian objections. The distinctions between various kinds of causes are long-established differentiations-elementary concepts of truth and logic that go back at least as far as Aristotle.
Aristotle, for example, named four categories of cause:
The Final Cause-that for the sake of which something happens
The Efficient Cause-the agent whose action produces the effect
The Material Cause-the substance that gives being to the effect
The Formal Cause-the shape, pattern, definition, or species of the effect
To illustrate that someone or something can be the "final cause" of an evil act and yet not be held morally responsible for it, consider these examples:
My friend, without my consent, robs a bank to get money to help pay my medical bills. He is the efficient cause of the action. He is morally culpable. I am the final cause, the one for whose sake the thing was done, yet I am not morally culpable.
My enemy, in a fit of rage over something I have done or said, goes on a wanton spree of vandalism. He is arrested, tried, and found guilty, because he is the efficient cause. Yet he continues to blame me for the episode. Indeed, I am the final cause-for he did this because of me. But I am not morally culpable.
A car thief caught in a sting operation makes the futile plea that he is not guilty because he would never have stolen that car if the police had not left it unlocked with the keys in the ignition. Here the cops are absolutely the final cause, because they staged the opportunity for the crime in order to catch a ring of serial car thieves operating in the neighborhood. The thief himself is the efficient cause. He is also the only person in this scenario with evil intent.
These are poor examples, but I hope it gives you understanding.
@@joelauretta4067 "I bet you think you just made a gotcha statement"
Says the person who literally made a "gotcha statement" in their initial comment. Embarrassing.
@@joelauretta4067None of what you just said contradicts what RevRydland said. If all sin originates in the mind of God and occurs because God has decreed it to occur, then God is by definition the author of sin. Calvinists should just own it instead of trying to argue with it. It makes it sound like you don't like your own doctrine and are trying to make excuses for it.
@ABC123jd
Where does scripture say that sin originates in God ?
God didn't cause sin, but He does allow it