Twenty three years later, my wife and I still can't ask each other "What do you want?" with a straight face. The episode is just so very, very...just...wow.
A couple people have already noted this, Lady Ladira is not sensing the destruction of this Babylon 5, but the alternate timeline Babylon 5 from the War Without End two-parter. It all comes down to HOW the Centauri have this ability, and the rift that already exists in Sector 14 (JMS already had at least Babylon Squared outlined by this point) affecting her. And I also believe that her showing him this is why Sinclair's future time flash was of that timeline's Babylon 5 being destroyed. The shot used in this episode gets reused because BUDGET. Which neatly ties it back to the previous episode. It might have helped if Lady Ladira got a mention in War Without End.
My first reaction to the Eye was that it reminded me a bit of the He Shi Bi, Imperial Seal of China, Heirloom Seal of the Realm, whatever you want to call it. For around a thousand years it was a strong symbol of authority for the various emperors of china. It played a large role in the Three Kingdoms period in which it was claimed by various warlords in efforts to legitimize their claim to the throne. It was lost sometime in the 900s AD (or CE if you prefer) and has not been seen since. Many other imperial jade seals of lesser authority were made afterwards in an attempt to reduce the impact of the loss of the He Shi Bi seal.
I think it's fair to note at this point JMS was almost certainly still working with his original plan to destroy B5 at the end of Season 3. With the return of B4 being the beginning of the "Babylon Prime" story that would have carried through until the end of the series as we have it. As I understand it, the decision not to destroy B5 was made because of the desire to continue the Sinclair/Valen arc despite Michael O'Hare not being able to continue as a regular cast member. The reconfiguring of the Valen arc pushed the B4 theft to the distant past instead of near future. JMS maintained in the commentary he got 90%of his vision for the series on screen. I suspect over half of what didn't happen was the B5 destruction/ B4 return arc.
I think the destruction prophecy was an intersection between fate and free will. The prophet basically told Sinclair: 'This is your future but it's up to you what that future entails. It can be hopeful or tragic. The cards are in your hand. Now go and figure it out'.
I like how this episode plays with a TV convention - the whole "double crossing a double cross" ending was something of a trope, and should have been where Kiro got his comeuppance in a mildly amusing, ironic way, although he would eventually return home in shame, poorer and with his ambitions in tatters. Instead, at reveal of that plot, bang.
I think the elevator scene w/ Lando and G'kar is also great cause it demonstrates how in some ways they are very similar people. But they can't see past their own prejudices to recognize it. It's a great showcase of how they will start to diverge as their arc's progress.
About the prohecy... at this point of the series, JMS was following his original five years plan. B5 would end up been destroyed... by the Mimbari warrior caste.
Regarding Londo "accepting" the Eye. As I recall, he wasn't given a choice in the matter. Morden showed up at his door with a box as a gift. Londo discovers the Eye inside, and Morden vanishes. What was he going to do? Chuck it out an airlock? Stick in a lockbox? It's a very Shadow way of doing things. Not accepting one of their gifts is simply not on the table. "The friendship of Morden and the power of the Shadows cannot lightly be thrown aside." Also I think you've misread the Centauri Republic's position. As did Londo and the rest of the Centauri aristocracy. The Republic might have been in decline, but they still mattered. But Londo didn't want them to "still matter". He wanted them to be the only one that mattered. Londo seemed to have a rather romanticized notion of Old Centauri Glory. He needed the dose of cold water his friend Jaddo gave him later: "You cannot build an empire out of slaughter and deceit!"
She says herself the future is always changing. It's made by our words, our deeds, etc. The vision of the station being destroyed that she shows Sinclair is different than the first vision we are shown. The future has been changed by something, or someone, during this episode. Can't say more without spoilers, but as the episode is named the same as the season, and the title being what it is, it's fair to say this is an important episode and one to pay attention to, with lots of signs and portents, lots of foreshadowing (groan) of the future.
For me, the only way mutable prophecies make sense is if they predict what would have happened without the prophecy, and having a prophecy allows you to act in such a way that the future changes - so it must be either Ladira herself, or someone she interacts with (directly or otherwise) that causes the future to change.
I loved how Delenn is able to deflect Morden's question before her shadow sense was tingling. I believe she is the only character who never answers the question.
So the eye is worth a briefcase full of Spice, which must flow. Oh and I think the Delin and Mordin scene was playing with the concept of the third eye seeing the truth, which works great with her own sense of mysticism
I suspect that Clarke used the Shadows to gain influence AND as a hedge against the growing power of the Psi Corps, he just didn't need to bother with the B5 staff.
I really wonder how far back the Shadow´s influence reaches. Was the mission of the Icarus the opportunity for them to get hold of humans...or a shipment of meat, ordered by them?
A parallel to Mr Morden: Adolf Eichmann. When Eichmann was captured by Nazi hunters and put on trial, the thing that struck many was how he was such a boring, ordinary person ... who engineered one of the greatest genocides in human history. A monster with the clothing and mannerisms of somebody who could very easily have been an everyday white collar pencil-pusher.
thexalon Reading Eichmann in Jerusalem, Eichmann wasn’t a monster in terms of malice. He didn’t want people to suffer, he just didn’t care if they did. Like Londo, Eichmann wanted to matter. He had failed in life and wanted a second chance, and he was willing to overlook petty things like morality because it was all about him. Helping the Nazis, taking credit for the Final Solution, Eichmann wanted glory and recognition.
Mr Morden... I don't know what else to say about him other than he is fricken awesomely evil. He's a much welcome addition to any episode. Not that I'm rooting for his associates or anything.
Just kind of pondering - is Kosh the real hero of the myth arc? Can’t really discuss without crazy spoilers, but he (as much as a Vorlon is a “he” - not clear that Vorlons have genders) doesn’t end up doing what he’s supposed to do in the end. He’s still playing his role according to the plan up to this point, but where does he deviate?
I'm watching this show for the first time and a small detail I liked with the Minbari mystery plot is that it starts with Sinclair approaching Garibaldi almost out of the blue. Maybe this is because I just binged through TNG, but I feel like most shows would feel it necessary to create an inciting incident or some kind of lead in to prompt Sinclair to act (i.e. Sinclair has another dream about the line or Delenn says something suspicious). I think a scene like that can be perfectly justified but could also add some artificiality, calling attention to how this plot will start and stop in-between the relevant episodes (does this even make sense? I can't word good). Basically what I'm trying to say is that the approach feels much more respectful to Sinclair's agency and reinforcing the illusion that he has been looking into this matter and unlike us viewers he's not waiting for the mystery to unfold itself.
I disagree with your assessment of Lady Ladira's vision of Babylon 5's destruction. I don't think she had foreseen its eventual detonation by the Interstellar Alliance or Earth Alliance. I believe she had a vision of Babylon 5 being destroyed by the Shadows in another two years from this episode. Her descriptions of the station's destruction did not match how it was eventually destroyed. I believe what Lady Ladira had envisioned was hinted again in "Babylon Square". That possibly future was eventually averted in the Season Three two-part episode, "War Without End". I do agree with you that the Shadows already had the Humans in their pocket. I believe this was confirmed in Season Three's "Voices of Authority".
I was really confuzzled when I saw this episode, for the first time in memory (I'm one of those who pretty much started with Season 2, so Morden + Londo was already a thing for me), and first saw Morden in the red light of G'kar's quarters. I'm surprised that you missed what seems the most obvious reason for why Morden passed on the Narn, because I didn't get it either from the episode, I got it from your own statement - G'kar wants to keep his home safe. The Shadows absolutely cannot keep Narn safe. If the Narn instead of the Centauri had gotten the Shadow deal, they would have ended up with a Vorlon planet-killer blotting out their sun. Indeed, they might well not have had the wherewithal to get the Shadows off their planet in the first place. Morden was looking for someone whose wants align with those of His Associates. That's *not* G'kar. The one thing that bothered me about this? It made perfect sense when Morden hid (in the Shadows, hahah) from Kosh; that was a great reveal, because at this point in the show, there's no reason to think the Vorlons are any different from the other races. So after Morden has tried to get his hooks into G'Kar and Delenn, it's a great twist for him to be avoiding Kosh. But then Kosh finds him later anyway, and...does nothing? It's literally dropped; we don't see Kosh going to Delenn or anything (Delenn did know, but how did Kosh know that Delenn knew?). Kosh just tells Morden "GTFO", and Morden ignores him with no consequences, and goes back to plying his trade with Londo, who finally bites. (I wish we'd also seen Morden approaching a couple of League species, but of course that would have taken up time that we might have been unable to spare.)
I always thought that the reason why G'kar wasn't picked was obvious in the episode from Morden's reaction. You see his delight as G'kar's hatred starts to come out, and you can see him start to egg G'kar on, but then G'kar just stops. It becomes apparent that there is a very petty limit to the Narn's aggression, and it's that lack of ambition that has Morden's face drop for a brief second. Then when see how he reacts to Londo's much more expansionist ambitions. I don't think Ed Wasser gets enough credit for what he achieves in those moments, as reaction shots do generally seem underappreciated
@@ishoottheyscore8970 Yeah, I always viewed it that Morden passed on G'kar because his aggression had a hard limit. They were looking for someone w/ a more boundless and broad reaching ambition that they could manipulate.
Yeah, G'Kar's ambitions were too limited and specific, ending with the extinction of the Centauri - "As long as my home world's safety is guaranteed, I don't know that it matters." Londo's ambition of restoring the semi-mythical good old days of the Centauri Republic offers far more potential for the Shadows' purposes. As for Kosh's encounter with Morden, I always took that as specifically protecting the humans from Morden - Sinclair (and later Sheridan) is already tapped to be a Vorlon agent in the coming conflict and the station command staff is off limits as a result - Sheridan is the only member of the Babylon 5 Advisory Council not to be approached by Mr Morden.
One of the things JMS said about this episode was to ... gloat is such an ugly word... Anyway, he expressed satisfaction about how you have this guy who goes around asking people what they want and then picks someone to give exactly what they asked for. And yet everyone picks up that he's a bad guy.
@@Wadj1 It's also interesting to look back at this episode (and other times when Morden finds out what people want) and see what those people end up getting. It's surprising just how often those wishes end up granted...
@@rmsgrey Late reply but I think we all agree Vir's wish (in a later episode than this one, many people assume it's actually this episode it happens) and resolution is the best!
This was also one of my favorites, and really feels like the actual beginning of the show to me. The yawning through just about every rumination is becoming distracting. What's up with that. Kinda strange
I don't think it's quite accurate to say that the Centauri were ever militarily weak, especially weaker than the Narn, more that for various reasons that people who have seen the show should know certain elements of the Centauri government were reluctant to engage in war with the Centauri not because they couldn't win but because they were opposed to the bloodshed it was caused. In short they didn't want to return to the old ways. Hope this is non-spoiler enough I could of course say more to push my argument if it weren't for spoilers lol.
they were never .. even at their laziest point right before the series start they were the second most powefull nation .. Aparently Earth takes the second-power place right after the fall of Centauri prime when they capitulate.. fut if i dont renember bad it was just temporally for a few years only.. as even beaten the Centauri have a much more powerful base
@@rmsgrey yes.. but the Vorlons as first ones are so far ahead that they are in their own above level thats its not even practical to compare any of the younger races to them..
When one looks back and reads up on JMS and the storyline you can see how easily the roles of the Narn and the Centauri could have been reversed in the show. The two races are the opposite side of the same coin.
At least Londo seemed to genuinely believe in his objectives, it's not a slogan to sell to the easily convinced, there is still some higher purpose in his own mind.
Twenty three years later, my wife and I still can't ask each other "What do you want?" with a straight face. The episode is just so very, very...just...wow.
I like how this episode has about 400 more views than the previous one. Everyone who knows B5 knows this episode and wants to hear more about it.
A couple people have already noted this, Lady Ladira is not sensing the destruction of this Babylon 5, but the alternate timeline Babylon 5 from the War Without End two-parter. It all comes down to HOW the Centauri have this ability, and the rift that already exists in Sector 14 (JMS already had at least Babylon Squared outlined by this point) affecting her. And I also believe that her showing him this is why Sinclair's future time flash was of that timeline's Babylon 5 being destroyed. The shot used in this episode gets reused because BUDGET. Which neatly ties it back to the previous episode. It might have helped if Lady Ladira got a mention in War Without End.
I cannot believe how I still got his episode in my memory, after so many years. "What do you want?" Its legendary, love the actor. Great eppisode.
My first reaction to the Eye was that it reminded me a bit of the He Shi Bi, Imperial Seal of China, Heirloom Seal of the Realm, whatever you want to call it. For around a thousand years it was a strong symbol of authority for the various emperors of china. It played a large role in the Three Kingdoms period in which it was claimed by various warlords in efforts to legitimize their claim to the throne. It was lost sometime in the 900s AD (or CE if you prefer) and has not been seen since. Many other imperial jade seals of lesser authority were made afterwards in an attempt to reduce the impact of the loss of the He Shi Bi seal.
I think it's fair to note at this point JMS was almost certainly still working with his original plan to destroy B5 at the end of Season 3. With the return of B4 being the beginning of the "Babylon Prime" story that would have carried through until the end of the series as we have it.
As I understand it, the decision not to destroy B5 was made because of the desire to continue the Sinclair/Valen arc despite Michael O'Hare not being able to continue as a regular cast member. The reconfiguring of the Valen arc pushed the B4 theft to the distant past instead of near future. JMS maintained in the commentary he got 90%of his vision for the series on screen. I suspect over half of what didn't happen was the B5 destruction/ B4 return arc.
I think the destruction prophecy was an intersection between fate and free will. The prophet basically told Sinclair: 'This is your future but it's up to you what that future entails. It can be hopeful or tragic. The cards are in your hand. Now go and figure it out'.
I like how this episode plays with a TV convention - the whole "double crossing a double cross" ending was something of a trope, and should have been where Kiro got his comeuppance in a mildly amusing, ironic way, although he would eventually return home in shame, poorer and with his ambitions in tatters.
Instead, at reveal of that plot, bang.
....a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power.
I think the elevator scene w/ Lando and G'kar is also great cause it demonstrates how in some ways they are very similar people. But they can't see past their own prejudices to recognize it. It's a great showcase of how they will start to diverge as their arc's progress.
About the prohecy... at this point of the series, JMS was following his original five years plan. B5 would end up been destroyed... by the Mimbari warrior caste.
Regarding Londo "accepting" the Eye. As I recall, he wasn't given a choice in the matter. Morden showed up at his door with a box as a gift. Londo discovers the Eye inside, and Morden vanishes. What was he going to do? Chuck it out an airlock? Stick in a lockbox? It's a very Shadow way of doing things. Not accepting one of their gifts is simply not on the table.
"The friendship of Morden and the power of the Shadows cannot lightly be thrown aside."
Also I think you've misread the Centauri Republic's position. As did Londo and the rest of the Centauri aristocracy. The Republic might have been in decline, but they still mattered. But Londo didn't want them to "still matter". He wanted them to be the only one that mattered. Londo seemed to have a rather romanticized notion of Old Centauri Glory. He needed the dose of cold water his friend Jaddo gave him later: "You cannot build an empire out of slaughter and deceit!"
I love the fact that Delenn sees Morden fading into shadows; it fits so well with her worldview, that a metaphor would literalize itself in her view.
She says herself the future is always changing. It's made by our words, our deeds, etc. The vision of the station being destroyed that she shows Sinclair is different than the first vision we are shown. The future has been changed by something, or someone, during this episode. Can't say more without spoilers, but as the episode is named the same as the season, and the title being what it is, it's fair to say this is an important episode and one to pay attention to, with lots of signs and portents, lots of foreshadowing (groan) of the future.
For me, the only way mutable prophecies make sense is if they predict what would have happened without the prophecy, and having a prophecy allows you to act in such a way that the future changes - so it must be either Ladira herself, or someone she interacts with (directly or otherwise) that causes the future to change.
I loved how Delenn is able to deflect Morden's question before her shadow sense was tingling. I believe she is the only character who never answers the question.
I always took the vision to be a glimpse into what goes down in sector 14.
So the eye is worth a briefcase full of Spice, which must flow. Oh and I think the Delin and Mordin scene was playing with the concept of the third eye seeing the truth, which works great with her own sense of mysticism
"Far worse than the death of flesh is the death of hope...the death of dreams"
Sounds like Londo to me.
I suspect that Clarke used the Shadows to gain influence AND as a hedge against the growing power of the Psi Corps, he just didn't need to bother with the B5 staff.
I really wonder how far back the Shadow´s influence reaches. Was the mission of the Icarus the opportunity for them to get hold of humans...or a shipment of meat, ordered by them?
A parallel to Mr Morden: Adolf Eichmann. When Eichmann was captured by Nazi hunters and put on trial, the thing that struck many was how he was such a boring, ordinary person ... who engineered one of the greatest genocides in human history. A monster with the clothing and mannerisms of somebody who could very easily have been an everyday white collar pencil-pusher.
thexalon Reading Eichmann in Jerusalem, Eichmann wasn’t a monster in terms of malice. He didn’t want people to suffer, he just didn’t care if they did.
Like Londo, Eichmann wanted to matter. He had failed in life and wanted a second chance, and he was willing to overlook petty things like morality because it was all about him. Helping the Nazis, taking credit for the Final Solution, Eichmann wanted glory and recognition.
Man, Voyager could learn a thing or two by watching this episode.
"What do you want"?
Mr Morden... I don't know what else to say about him other than he is fricken awesomely evil. He's a much welcome addition to any episode. Not that I'm rooting for his associates or anything.
Just kind of pondering - is Kosh the real hero of the myth arc?
Can’t really discuss without crazy spoilers, but he (as much as a Vorlon is a “he” - not clear that Vorlons have genders) doesn’t end up doing what he’s supposed to do in the end.
He’s still playing his role according to the plan up to this point, but where does he deviate?
This episode is legendary. It's the first "arc episode" of the series and JMS makes a big deal about it.
I'm watching this show for the first time and a small detail I liked with the Minbari mystery plot is that it starts with Sinclair approaching Garibaldi almost out of the blue.
Maybe this is because I just binged through TNG, but I feel like most shows would feel it necessary to create an inciting incident or some kind of lead in to prompt Sinclair to act (i.e. Sinclair has another dream about the line or Delenn says something suspicious). I think a scene like that can be perfectly justified but could also add some artificiality, calling attention to how this plot will start and stop in-between the relevant episodes (does this even make sense? I can't word good).
Basically what I'm trying to say is that the approach feels much more respectful to Sinclair's agency and reinforcing the illusion that he has been looking into this matter and unlike us viewers he's not waiting for the mystery to unfold itself.
Just realized, your interpretation of the Lando's response, is the same as Scar from the Lion King
They outright state in the last episode that Babylon 5 is a military installation. Other than that a great rumination.
It is a military station, but not a military base. IE it was built and is maintained by the military, but serves a non military purpose.
+Arsene Lupin Yep. A subtle difference, but an important one.
I disagree with your assessment of Lady Ladira's vision of Babylon 5's destruction. I don't think she had foreseen its eventual detonation by the Interstellar Alliance or Earth Alliance. I believe she had a vision of Babylon 5 being destroyed by the Shadows in another two years from this episode. Her descriptions of the station's destruction did not match how it was eventually destroyed. I believe what Lady Ladira had envisioned was hinted again in "Babylon Square". That possibly future was eventually averted in the Season Three two-part episode, "War Without End". I do agree with you that the Shadows already had the Humans in their pocket. I believe this was confirmed in Season Three's "Voices of Authority".
I was really confuzzled when I saw this episode, for the first time in memory (I'm one of those who pretty much started with Season 2, so Morden + Londo was already a thing for me), and first saw Morden in the red light of G'kar's quarters. I'm surprised that you missed what seems the most obvious reason for why Morden passed on the Narn, because I didn't get it either from the episode, I got it from your own statement - G'kar wants to keep his home safe. The Shadows absolutely cannot keep Narn safe. If the Narn instead of the Centauri had gotten the Shadow deal, they would have ended up with a Vorlon planet-killer blotting out their sun. Indeed, they might well not have had the wherewithal to get the Shadows off their planet in the first place. Morden was looking for someone whose wants align with those of His Associates. That's *not* G'kar.
The one thing that bothered me about this? It made perfect sense when Morden hid (in the Shadows, hahah) from Kosh; that was a great reveal, because at this point in the show, there's no reason to think the Vorlons are any different from the other races. So after Morden has tried to get his hooks into G'Kar and Delenn, it's a great twist for him to be avoiding Kosh. But then Kosh finds him later anyway, and...does nothing? It's literally dropped; we don't see Kosh going to Delenn or anything (Delenn did know, but how did Kosh know that Delenn knew?). Kosh just tells Morden "GTFO", and Morden ignores him with no consequences, and goes back to plying his trade with Londo, who finally bites. (I wish we'd also seen Morden approaching a couple of League species, but of course that would have taken up time that we might have been unable to spare.)
I always thought that the reason why G'kar wasn't picked was obvious in the episode from Morden's reaction. You see his delight as G'kar's hatred starts to come out, and you can see him start to egg G'kar on, but then G'kar just stops. It becomes apparent that there is a very petty limit to the Narn's aggression, and it's that lack of ambition that has Morden's face drop for a brief second. Then when see how he reacts to Londo's much more expansionist ambitions. I don't think Ed Wasser gets enough credit for what he achieves in those moments, as reaction shots do generally seem underappreciated
@@ishoottheyscore8970 Yeah, I always viewed it that Morden passed on G'kar because his aggression had a hard limit. They were looking for someone w/ a more boundless and broad reaching ambition that they could manipulate.
Yeah, G'Kar's ambitions were too limited and specific, ending with the extinction of the Centauri - "As long as my home world's safety is guaranteed, I don't know that it matters."
Londo's ambition of restoring the semi-mythical good old days of the Centauri Republic offers far more potential for the Shadows' purposes.
As for Kosh's encounter with Morden, I always took that as specifically protecting the humans from Morden - Sinclair (and later Sheridan) is already tapped to be a Vorlon agent in the coming conflict and the station command staff is off limits as a result - Sheridan is the only member of the Babylon 5 Advisory Council not to be approached by Mr Morden.
One of the things JMS said about this episode was to ... gloat is such an ugly word... Anyway, he expressed satisfaction about how you have this guy who goes around asking people what they want and then picks someone to give exactly what they asked for. And yet everyone picks up that he's a bad guy.
But he's the epitome of 'be careful what you wish for'. It's not often personified :)
@@Wadj1 It's also interesting to look back at this episode (and other times when Morden finds out what people want) and see what those people end up getting. It's surprising just how often those wishes end up granted...
@@rmsgrey Late reply but I think we all agree Vir's wish (in a later episode than this one, many people assume it's actually this episode it happens) and resolution is the best!
who are you,what do you want . simple aren't they and yet they can cause so so so much pain
I can't believe that I didn't see Kiro is played by Q-uin
trapito .......... The voice in the background of the Arrival bay, lol haahahhaahahahah
Thank you!
Why did it take your saying so, for G'Kar's Answer to click and to understand so much more as to why Mr Morden's employers didn't select the Narn.
Gah JMS and Mr Morden just so well written when he gets the answers from Both G'Kar and Laundo; just *shudders*
Mr. Mordin, weaponized servility
This was also one of my favorites, and really feels like the actual beginning of the show to me. The yawning through just about every rumination is becoming distracting. What's up with that. Kinda strange
Make Centauri great again.
I don't think it's quite accurate to say that the Centauri were ever militarily weak, especially weaker than the Narn, more that for various reasons that people who have seen the show should know certain elements of the Centauri government were reluctant to engage in war with the Centauri not because they couldn't win but because they were opposed to the bloodshed it was caused. In short they didn't want to return to the old ways. Hope this is non-spoiler enough I could of course say more to push my argument if it weren't for spoilers lol.
they were never .. even at their laziest point right before the series start they were the second most powefull nation ..
Aparently Earth takes the second-power place right after the fall of Centauri prime when they capitulate.. fut if i dont renember bad it was just temporally for a few years only.. as even beaten the Centauri have a much more powerful base
@@sparrowlt Third - the Vorlons are definitely in first place.
@@rmsgrey yes.. but the Vorlons as first ones are so far ahead that they are in their own above level thats its not even practical to compare any of the younger races to them..
When one looks back and reads up on JMS and the storyline you can see how easily the roles of the Narn and the Centauri could have been reversed in the show. The two races are the opposite side of the same coin.
Londo just wants to make Ameri... er... Centauri great again! :D
Whereas the current dope wants to make it fat, blind and corrupt again. Honestly you yanks truly choose the worst leaders!
At least Londo seemed to genuinely believe in his objectives, it's not a slogan to sell to the easily convinced, there is still some higher purpose in his own mind.
@@ishoottheyscore8970 Yeah, that makes for a nice contrast with the opportunistic lord Refa.