I was at this show, it was a beauty of a day in NY. May, warm day cool evening and we were ready for some music. Ive been to lots of shows, but this was exceptional. Never seen a better time as they blew that room away, to steal two lyrics. I remember them opening the doors and the cool air hitting the hot crowd and it just exploded. The Academy of Music, 1974
Having been a big fan of the *Live at Carnagie Hall* version of Ashes Are Burning for a long time, this was the first time I've seen/heard this live version. I'd definitely say that the Carnagie Hall version is superior, having better overall pacing throughout. Also, I think this version is [comparatively] quite a bit more "indulgent", both Jon Camp's bass solo & the presentation overall, stretching out everything as if there's always more value in that.
Agree the Live At Carnegie Hall version is without a doubt the best version, but even the studio version is better than this one. I would only recommend this live version to die hard fans, never to a newbie reactor.
Early concert video tape (not even in color) and soundboard audio from the Capitol Theater (New York, right?) BTW, Rush was also taped playing that theater on the '2112' tour. 22:00 Justin thinking " Whew -- I survived a prog rock bass solo!" Only to then realize he was in for the interminable ending section! 😄 "Ashes Are Burning" was from the first album with this lineup, and it probably WAS stretched out due at least partially to lack of enough material to fill out a set, but it was also the early 70's and long solos and jamming was the norm. But "Ashes Are Burning" became Renaissance's set closer or the encore, right up til the end, and it was always stretched out like this. As prog epics go it's OK, but I do think it goes on longer than it needs to. This and Camel's "Lady Fantasy" are both guilty of this IMO, but I know most older prog fans revere them all the same. BTW, Jon Camp may not have started playing this way, but you're seeing the direct impact of Chris Squire on the progressive rock scene in his playing (and choice of instrument). This tape also gives you a sense for what passed as "shit hot" bass playing in the 70's, before the likes of Mark King, Victor Wooten, and Flea came along.
Heard this song many times.. "Live at Carnagie Hall " is best live album they recorded imo . Its still a piece of art . They were playing live and this was the main show piece I guess that night. Annie is an incredible vocalist with a crazy range. Not many I doubt of could pull the outro off like she does. Maybe you should of listened to the Album version first so you knew what you were about to get into :).
This is my favorite prog piece of all time, and I completely agree with you. This performance overstayed its welcome about halfway through its runtime and just kept going. The studio is half this length and is much more cohesive and less meandering.
I appreciate your perspective as it holds true for many people out there. Though, to address you "too long" stance, I wish it could go on forever. I absolutely love this song, and it will always hold true as one of my favourites.
If you like the timbre of this music, I think you should give a listen to the studio version which is only 11:24. I got chills at the beginning of this video, but then got bored with the soloing that I felt went on too long. The studio version is totally concise compared to this live performance.
There's a lot of original stuff in this, which is great. You got to think who influenced who! YES, KING CRIMSON, ROBIN TROWER, GROUNDHOGS, WISHBONE ASH, the only thing I can say if there is a inch of originality I'm in 🤘👍
Dude went nuts on those pedals. lol. I don't mind bass solos as long as they were are interesting and I liked this solo. One thing, Justin, with all the recent requests you have done, I think the world is telling you to finally add a certain bass to your collection that you have never owned. As for the overall song, agree with you. The first part was nice and her vocals kind of reminded me of Delores O'Riordan from the Cranberries with that yodel. She is higher pitch and better control. Hated the end when she hit those screech levels though. Not pleasant. I can't listen to this often. I prefer shorter prog songs like 15 minutes and under lol. With that said, this band in very good and has awesome songs you should hear.
"Ashes Are Burning" was usually done as their encore in live shows, so that's the main reason it is stretched out so long. I love Renaissance, but agree that this version is too long. To see Renaissance at their best live, check out this this mini- set of three songs: th-cam.com/video/LLSZQUZEfBc/w-d-xo.html
Andy Powell from Wishbone Ash played on the studio version of this song and provided the guitar solo. Since Michael Dunsford only played an acoustic guitar, they replaced the guitar solo from the studio with a keyboard and bass solo. When I saw them about 5 or 6 years ago, Annie told us after the concert that that was the first time they had played a guitar solo since the original recording. Mark Lambert brought out an identical guitar to the one Andy Powell played. The band was unsure how the audience would react because the middle jam session was so different than they usually play. But the crowd loved it. (Kent Theater; Kent Ohio)
If you don't like them or their long pieces, then listen to their shorter ones, or another band. This is what separates those who like music from mere image-crafting. They have plenty of songs.
I do like the album version a lot... great band... and Annie is awesome and I'm from her part of the world... but I fell asleep in the middle of this then woke up to you complaining... ;)
Big Renaissance fan but I find this overlong overblown I don't like the bass solo and the end is dragging on forever! The studio version is far superior at only 11 minutes.
Just looking at your reactions to other prog - and this is exactly an example of what I think that pretty much all the "second tier" prog bands have in common. There is a lot of, as you say "self serving" instrumentation (I called noodling). Even the best parts are marginal. Everything just trudges along going nowhere -- you don't get transported or taken on a journey that more capable musicians are able to do. And as I mentioned in a previous post, regard these prog bands, the vocals are bland and forgettable. In this particular case compare her to other vocalist like Kate Bush, Ann Wilson, Christine McVie/Stevie Nicks, Debbie Harry, even Laurie Anderson.... And I'm not listing these names because I'm a fan of theirs - which for the most part I'm not - but it's because I do appreciate their gift. (I am a huge fan of Lisa Gerrard of Dead Can Dance). I'm always so surprised that all these prog bands get so much love in the prog community, and bands like Eloy get the reverse. Eloy like all these prog bands didn't have the calibre of musicians that Yes had (I was going to add Genesis & Floyd here but I don't think even they were at Yes' level, apart from their song writing, and Rush as you mentioned, as good as they were wasn't really prog), but unlike these lesser bands, Eloy used what they had in the most effective way and the song writing skills of the one permanent member Frank Bornmann was far superior. Regarding the self serving aspect of all these prog bands, as a contrary example, Eloy's double Live album does not have even one solo in it or extended instrumentals, all the tracks are tight just as the studio versions are. Speaking of instrumentals there is one track on their Floating album "The Light From Deep Darkness" that has two instrumentals in it - that have no noodling - and absolutely crush - they're heavier than a lot of metal counterparts but without the thrashing. Anyway, I strongly feel that you should give Eloy a chance to sink in -- they were well apart from those other proggers.
I was at this show, it was a beauty of a day in NY. May, warm day cool evening and we were ready for some music. Ive been to lots of shows, but this was exceptional. Never seen a better time as they blew that room away, to steal two lyrics. I remember them opening the doors and the cool air hitting the hot crowd and it just exploded. The Academy of Music, 1974
I have been waiting so long for someone to react to Renaissance! Saw them live many times back in the 70's. They are wonderful!
Having been a big fan of the *Live at Carnagie Hall* version of Ashes Are Burning for a long time, this was the first time I've seen/heard this live version. I'd definitely say that the Carnagie Hall version is superior, having better overall pacing throughout. Also, I think this version is [comparatively] quite a bit more "indulgent", both Jon Camp's bass solo & the presentation overall, stretching out everything as if there's always more value in that.
Agree the Live At Carnegie Hall version is without a doubt the best version, but even the studio version is better than this one. I would only recommend this live version to die hard fans, never to a newbie reactor.
Chicago 1983 Annie blows the roof off.
Moi Aussi. And I like your comparative thoughts on this live version.
Early concert video tape (not even in color) and soundboard audio from the Capitol Theater (New York, right?) BTW, Rush was also taped playing that theater on the '2112' tour.
22:00 Justin thinking " Whew -- I survived a prog rock bass solo!" Only to then realize he was in for the interminable ending section! 😄 "Ashes Are Burning" was from the first album with this lineup, and it probably WAS stretched out due at least partially to lack of enough material to fill out a set, but it was also the early 70's and long solos and jamming was the norm. But "Ashes Are Burning" became Renaissance's set closer or the encore, right up til the end, and it was always stretched out like this. As prog epics go it's OK, but I do think it goes on longer than it needs to. This and Camel's "Lady Fantasy" are both guilty of this IMO, but I know most older prog fans revere them all the same. BTW, Jon Camp may not have started playing this way, but you're seeing the direct impact of Chris Squire on the progressive rock scene in his playing (and choice of instrument). This tape also gives you a sense for what passed as "shit hot" bass playing in the 70's, before the likes of Mark King, Victor Wooten, and Flea came along.
Heard this song many times.. "Live at Carnagie Hall " is best live album they recorded imo . Its still a piece of art . They were playing live and this was the main show piece I guess that night. Annie is an incredible vocalist with a crazy range. Not many I doubt of could pull the outro off like she does. Maybe you should of listened to the Album version first so you knew what you were about to get into :).
This is my favorite prog piece of all time, and I completely agree with you. This performance overstayed its welcome about halfway through its runtime and just kept going. The studio is half this length and is much more cohesive and less meandering.
I appreciate your perspective as it holds true for many people out there. Though, to address you "too long" stance, I wish it could go on forever. I absolutely love this song, and it will always hold true as one of my favourites.
Jon Camp One of, if not the most underrated bass player
@Nulli_Di I love this. If you search TH-cam, there is a redonne video from the concert at the capitol theater that shows some.
Live at Carnegie Hall version is my preferred version. Much cleaner and less overdrawn.
If you like the timbre of this music, I think you should give a listen to the studio version which is only 11:24. I got chills at the beginning of this video, but then got bored with the soloing that I felt went on too long. The studio version is totally concise compared to this live performance.
There's a lot of original stuff in this, which is great. You got to think who influenced who! YES, KING CRIMSON, ROBIN TROWER, GROUNDHOGS, WISHBONE ASH, the only thing I can say if there is a inch of originality I'm in 🤘👍
Dude went nuts on those pedals. lol. I don't mind bass solos as long as they were are interesting and I liked this solo. One thing, Justin, with all the recent requests you have done, I think the world is telling you to finally add a certain bass to your collection that you have never owned.
As for the overall song, agree with you. The first part was nice and her vocals kind of reminded me of Delores O'Riordan from the Cranberries with that yodel. She is higher pitch and better control. Hated the end when she hit those screech levels though. Not pleasant. I can't listen to this often. I prefer shorter prog songs like 15 minutes and under lol. With that said, this band in very good and has awesome songs you should hear.
"Ashes Are Burning" was usually done as their encore in live shows, so that's the main reason it is stretched out so long. I love Renaissance, but agree that this version is too long. To see Renaissance at their best live, check out this this mini- set of three songs: th-cam.com/video/LLSZQUZEfBc/w-d-xo.html
Andy Powell from Wishbone Ash played on the studio version of this song and provided the guitar solo. Since Michael Dunsford only played an acoustic guitar, they replaced the guitar solo from the studio with a keyboard and bass solo. When I saw them about 5 or 6 years ago, Annie told us after the concert that that was the first time they had played a guitar solo since the original recording. Mark Lambert brought out an identical guitar to the one Andy Powell played. The band was unsure how the audience would react because the middle jam session was so different than they usually play. But the crowd loved it. (Kent Theater; Kent Ohio)
If you don't like them or their long pieces, then listen to their shorter ones, or another band. This is what separates those who like music from mere image-crafting. They have plenty of songs.
I do like the album version a lot... great band... and Annie is awesome and I'm from her part of the world... but I fell asleep in the middle of this then woke up to you complaining... ;)
She reminds me of a SIREN😅
I have to admit.I prefer the studio version better electric guitar work at the end puts the highlight on the whole song
Big Renaissance fan but I find this overlong overblown I don't like the bass solo and the end is dragging on forever! The studio version is far superior at only 11 minutes.
Just looking at your reactions to other prog - and this is exactly an example of what I think that pretty much all the "second tier" prog bands have in common. There is a lot of, as you say "self serving" instrumentation (I called noodling). Even the best parts are marginal. Everything just trudges along going nowhere -- you don't get transported or taken on a journey that more capable musicians are able to do. And as I mentioned in a previous post, regard these prog bands, the vocals are bland and forgettable. In this particular case compare her to other vocalist like Kate Bush, Ann Wilson, Christine McVie/Stevie Nicks, Debbie Harry, even Laurie Anderson.... And I'm not listing these names because I'm a fan of theirs - which for the most part I'm not - but it's because I do appreciate their gift. (I am a huge fan of Lisa Gerrard of Dead Can Dance). I'm always so surprised that all these prog bands get so much love in the prog community, and bands like Eloy get the reverse. Eloy like all these prog bands didn't have the calibre of musicians that Yes had (I was going to add Genesis & Floyd here but I don't think even they were at Yes' level, apart from their song writing, and Rush as you mentioned, as good as they were wasn't really prog), but unlike these lesser bands, Eloy used what they had in the most effective way and the song writing skills of the one permanent member Frank Bornmann was far superior. Regarding the self serving aspect of all these prog bands, as a contrary example, Eloy's double Live album does not have even one solo in it or extended instrumentals, all the tracks are tight just as the studio versions are. Speaking of instrumentals there is one track on their Floating album "The Light From Deep Darkness" that has two instrumentals in it - that have no noodling - and absolutely crush - they're heavier than a lot of metal counterparts but without the thrashing. Anyway, I strongly feel that you should give Eloy a chance to sink in -- they were well apart from those other proggers.
Very nice vocals as well as a few interesting bits. However, everything else was a bit much for me.