The 8k with its original targeting system using the quirks from Battletechnology issue #14 is unquestionably the best Heavy mech in 3025/3039... even a downgraded 7k with an original 8k targeting system is better than the rest. The quirks are just that strong... +2 To Hit with lasers (makes them pulses for hitting purposes) & produces less heat when firing lasers. The SLDF really did a great job with that one... the Marauder gets all the glory from the Gunslinger program but the Flashman was the Mechwarrior mech of choice composing entire Battalions of them by the end of the civil war.
One thing I didn't see mentioned in the Exterminator and Crusader segments is the fact they only carry 10 heat sinks. That *really* limits their offensive output.
Crusader's going to either use short range or long range weaponry, but not both at the same time. Should be able to help with heat management. As for the Exterminator it's an ambush mech. It's only really capable of short bursts of activity.
@@1nONLY_DRock Although really, the 3025 Exterminator shouldn't have any of the stealth systems and lostech that actually made it work for ambushes. It ends up just being crap or working outside its intended role when stuck using introtech.
Always loved the 6D warhammer, the base mech is pretty good and the 6D just refines it into a really solid mech that’ll almost always perform to an acceptable level
I love seeing the Guillotine get some love, it's my favorite mech of all time, so much so that I will always use it as my command mech, even if there are assaults available.
It's easy to overlook because it doesn't have any eye catching weapons like AC20s or PPCs, just one LLaser. But it's max armored and is heat neutral, which is basically a cheat code in 3025 tech.
I love the GRH and the GLTs. In my current MekHQ campain I have 1 GHR and 4 GLTs, one of which is the Star League version. It is 3068, but I would still take them against almost everything the IS has to offer in the same weightclass. With their mobility they can often get behind enemies as well.
The evaluation for the Exterminator somehow manages to get worse when you really start digging into it. First up, all versions have the Difficult to Maintain quirk. Second, the -4A variant? Only 25 were confirmed produced. Lastly, being designed as a "headhunter" Mech, all the Great Houses formed task groups specifically to hunt it down when the Succession Wars broke out. The Exterminator is functionally extinct in the Inner Sphere, unless a certain interstellar telecom company has a few stashed away somewhere.
6:25 ......In my 36 years of Battletech, I have NEVER heard someone say the Archer does not have the legendary history of the Marauder. This could be argued especially when the Archer and Warhammer both were participants in one of the IS most infamous Duels in 3016 on Mallory's World.. Morgan Kell, In his Beloved Archer VS Yorinaga Kurita piloting his tried and True Warhammer. This infamous duel boosted both Mech Chassis and Both Mech Pilots to the vaunted LEGENDARY status.... Very interesting watch and a very good layout. I personally disagree with some of your conclusions on your tier rating list but as a whole it is a good list and a GREAT starting point.
The solution for a problem is a Vindicator. The solution for a bigger problem are more Vindicators. Xin Sheng! Seriously, you would be surprised how nasty a company of them is.
Things to note. Black Knight: oven of a mech even in the FWL variant. The amount of heat sinks nowhere near enough to cool off even it's primary armament. For instance -L variant will gain 2 Heat by firing all 3 Large Lasers, while standing still. And you probably don't want to stand still. The standard variant gains whooping 6 heat heat, by doing the same thing (standing still and firing long range). Maybe it has a lot of gun, but unlike Flashman it can't reliably put all of that gun to use. MAD is legendary not just because of it's style or stories associated with it. It has the grand combo of "Command Mech", "Hyper Extending Actuators" and "Narrow/Low Profile" quirks. Which don't kick in normally, unless you are using advanced rules, but if you do use those advanced rules (Quirks, Direct Blows, Glancing Blows) it allows MAD eat some hilarious amounts of damage, if it sticks behind cover, in the woods and far enough. A stray shot from AC/20 reduced to 5 damage? Yes, please! AC/2 doing literally nothing? Thank you very much! So if you want really hard to hit Heavy, you'll have to turn to Ostroc or Ostsol. While being 5/8 is nice, they have real problems with taking a punch and heat dissipation.
Heya! Net Heat +2 is actually what you want! It's a great heat gain to have. You get 3 turns of 3 large lasers and then use a different combo to cool down. MAD I only use the "Narrow/Low Profile" quirk rules in my games. Maybe that's why it's so low? The quirk is very good but the armor on the Marauder's side torsos isn't high enough to take advantage of it properly. "Command Mech" can be gotten on the more stable Archer, and "Hyper Extending Actuators" doesn't come into play too often to be of too much use imo. Hope that helps!
@@nerdyOveranalyzed Note that +2 Heat is while standing still. Which is very unlikely to happen on a brawler like Black Knight. So you are in +3 on walking or +4 on running, which is less than ideal. And that's only shooting 3 guns out of 8 Black Knight has. A severely overgunned machine that could use a little bit more HS and/or armour. And that's FWL variant. Standard variant has 20 HS for a PPC and two LLs, which you kind of want to shoot in a go. But that would be 26 heat standing, 28 heat running. Which is pretty terrible. Again, the rest of the armament isn't included into this. Even if you plan on shooting PPC and LLs and then just LLs, you will still be at 4 heat after the 2 LLs round, meaning you need either 2 turns of that to cool off, or switch to MLs. Or just one LL. Machines like AWS-8Q can easily afford standing still and shooting, because they were built like a barn door and can take a punishment. Black Knight, for all it's armament, kind of doesn't do that very well.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed And that's great. It would very very boring if we had agreed on everything. Then I wouldn't have to argue with people that Whitworth is a good mech actually :D
I love the Stalker on the tabletop. Even though my dice rolls aren't very lucky, it generally hits like an absolute truck and becomes a priority for my opponents, leaving my more fragile mechs unmolested.
The Stalker is such an absolute menace. You don't want to leave it alive because it's got so much firepower, but you don't want to waste shots on it because its so damn tanky. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
this channel always delivering Thanks for getting me into the MRC. I had one of the hardest lineups in the tournament and still went 2-2: first time playing battletech competitively like that. Your videos make me wanna get better at the game
I find it fascinating that before finding your channel, I evaluated every mech listed (except the Merlin, which is not available) the same way in MW5 except for the Quickdraw. Though it may need a small refit to bring the rear-facing medium lasers forward, it's ability to reposition to head off enemy flankers makes it, IMO, a solid Battleline/Bodyguard unit. I do think, however, it would be a 5th/6th 'mech, instead of a main Lance inclusion, unless you are able to make more extensive refits.
THOUGH I understand your gripe about the eridani thunderbolt, pairs very well with grasshoppers in direct assault and flanking pairs. While not as heat efficient still has more addded HS to help after a jump assault. Still feel its a less is more mech like some other while being a brick wall that flies.
Hyper-extending actuators and Directional Torso Mount(RT) means that the Marauder can fire all of it's weapons into the rear arc significantly mitigating the threat from being flanked AND it has Narrow/Low Profile, one of the absolute best quirks in the entire game in addition to being a command mech.
thank you, i have been writing a "A Time of total warfare" campaign for my friends for a couple years now (one day our schedules will align lol) and have been struggling to pick the mechs i want to show up in the campaign. this really does help
Fantastic as always! As someone who doesn't play with quirks or rarity/availability factoring into our games, I really appreciate how you break out each metric and weighted category so its easy to filter out what info is pertinent for your table vs. another's. totally seperate food for thought - i personally did a spreadsheet comparison of all the (succession wars era) heavy mechs and variants with x2 PPCs as their main weapon as i noticed how many go for that loadout, just comparing their armor, other weapons, heatsinking, etc. to see how they stack against each other. Noticed some interesting properties in the minutia of differences. Curious if an idea like that ever crossed your plans, such as comparing all mechs with a singular similarity. Like all with an AC10, or every one with x4 medium lasers. Like if those weapons are your goal, which package is best/best suits you?
Hmm, I think I have some other plans for content but I did notice some common patterns in design. Ex. Double PPCs, LRM+Medium Laser+Speed, PPC+SRM, SRM Boat, LRM Boat. I think it will be sufficient to cover all the 3025 mechs in tier lists and then move onto adding to those ideas.
The FWL Marauder MAD-3M is my favorite variant, swapping the 2 PPCs for 2 Large Lasers and 4 extra heat sinks, while the range and damage are slightly reduced, the MADs troublesome heat issues are totally corrected and actually it will probably put out more overall damage as a result.
Love the Guillotine and the Grasshopper. Love those bully mechs, showing up in unwanted places or pushing out zones of control. Lights and mediums? TRY AND RUN, COWARDS! ... I mean...yes they can...but I can zone em out and even protect vulnerable bits by jump jetting around and twisting to face faster things.
This is really cool. I am not hardcore into Battletech but have played a few of the video games, in which custom loadouts for you mech is always one of the main facets. I'm not sure if this is true for other aspects of the franchise. All these mech seem to be evaluated w/ a particular preset loadout, but wonder if it would be possible to do an analysis like this but of only the frames/chassis as a baseline. That would be very helpful for people like me trying to understand how to build their squad up from the ground lvl, but it might have to much variability to be a viable task.
On his individual mech videos he usually has one 'suggested' custom load out that doesn't cost much to retrofit from a base model. In tabletop any mech of any tonnage could theoretically be converted into any other mech of the same tonnage. So while deep analysis of custom load outs is common for the videogame it isn't a major factor on the tabletop.
Heya Commander! The analysis was done on the baseline chassis. If there were other variants I picked the most notable and did an analysis on that one as well. Hope that clears things up!
As far as frontliners go, I must say, I love the good old Orion. The mini-Atlas. It was Kerensky's favourite for a good reason. It is a solid "everymech" machine in my eyes. Something you take when you do not know what to expect. Ranged mechs and range hybrids - I like the Marauder, but it is too expensive and runs horribly hot and I feel like it is very vulnerable to being swarmed. For lurms, I like the Archer - it is objectively a fantastic machine if you can prevent it from running hot. But I do have a soft spot for a good old CAT - low ammunition counts hamper it, though. In my opinion, you can't go wrong with a Warhammer if you need a PPC sniper - especially a D variant. Basically, a more manageable, if less glamorous Marauder. Heavy cav mechs and line hybrids - I find most of them disappointing, especially on the lighter side. Many faster heavies rely on too big engines and sacrifice too much - it is usually either armour, armament, or heat management. I do have a soft spot for a Dragon, even if it is horrible and I find it may work decently enough in numbers. The one thing it has going for it is that it is an "everymech" - so if you have ton of them and you lose one, your overall utility won't be diminished much as if you lost a specialised mech. The only problem is that better "everymechs" exist - like an Orion. I do like a Grasshopper though. It is a decent medium and light killer. Fast and protected enough, same with Guillotine. I already mentioned I do love myself a Catapult - but it is deceptive. It looks like a lurm boat, but most variants have suspiciously heavy secondary armament. And K2 makes for a deceptively good alternative for other dedicated PPC boats - if you were to choose a series of mechs to build a lance of - you could easily go with various versions of a CAT and will pretty much every possible role.
Same here. I found it by looking up mechs on Sarna, but I haven't heard it mentioned anywhere (almost). It gets my vote for the most underrated Heavy mech.
@@gammafighter yea it's wild because not only is it actually a famous mech in universe, it's old in our world too. It's strange it's never really been put into games. Was it unseen, or unlucky lol
OK. Not a Battletech player, but I LOVE the lore and world building. Got almost All of the PC games (I'm old and can't sink as much cash into a new PC). The level of detail here is amazing. Auto subed. Really impressed.
And gets rid of a lot of bias from the lore writers, they often hype up one mech even though it´s barely passable by Otto´s analyzis. On the other hands, Otto recommends mech that, in lore, get little to no love, the entire set of Ost mechs rarely gets mentioned at all. Though to be fair, that´s also a copyright issue...
I always like that your reviews include things relevant to mercenaries, like dropship slots, cost, availability, etc., as well as how a mech will function in a unit. You can tell this is a good tier list because there aren't too many "S" tier, "A" and "B" tiers are still great mechs, and an example company would include down to B tier. In my unit we tend to focus a bit more on "battleline" heavies, with ranged and cavalry heavies being picked based on their ability to either support or fill-in for that role. We don't run many assault mechs (just a Victor and a Battlemaster in the whole Battalion right now), so we lean on the heavies to fill-in to typical assault roles. We will run as many Orions, Thunderbolts, Flashmen (Flashmans?), Grasshoppers, and Black Knights as we can get out hands on, with Warhammers and Crusaders in our ranged slots. Since so many of the line mechs also have fair firepower at long range, we prefer the more hybrid ranged mechs over specialists. At any given time, the Battalion is usually about 70% heavy mechs (with the rest being mostly mediums) since the weight class has a lot of value and versatility for mercenary missions. We can afford assault mechs, but aside from a few pilots' personal mechs we don't field them. Assault mechs are rarely the best use of dropship space.
Hey Cav Scout glad to see you again! Happy you're enjoying the videos. I do try to be a bit more strict on the ratings in order to filter out the good mechs.
I have been playing BattleTech in one form or another for a long, long time ... and seeing some of the truly terrible standard designs get their well deserved F ratings gilled me with joy :lol: These days I ride a Marauder II but for a long part of my career I was a Marauder jockey ... that AC5 came off in very short order I can tell you :D The 'classic' models were clearly designed to a picture rather than to performance as some of the modifications required to make them actually work are often quite simple in concept. For example, for a missile boat, as I am sure we all know but this is just to illustrate, have a pair of the biggest batteries you can fit in with four (three at a major pinch) tons of ammo and back that up with three or four Medium Lasers and enough heat sinks to fire continuously on the move. Count on most fights being over in about twelve minutes but *never* run a pure ammo-fed boat ... unless it is the absolutely insane MG-only Firestarter I have seen :) Captain Dallas Sukerkin, Merchant Adventurer's Company, Thackstones Battalion, Third Crucis Lancers RCT, Armed Forces of the Federated Suns {Federated Commonwealth? What's that? :p}
I agree with your list on paper. Unfortunately, lists like this do not show how battlemechs can synergise as part of a list in a lance or company. Also, there is psychology to take into account. Mechs with a bad reputation tend to get ignored until it's too late. I can't even recall all the times I have seen garbage mechs effectively win the game because of it. Not a criticism in any way, shape, or form, just something for players to keep in mind.
Like failing to pay attention to a stock CGR-1A till you realize your oppnent just lined up a perfect textbook charge and body slams something important for 64 damage in one go
More for Mediums, but the Sentinel perfectly encapsulates this, especially the Large Laser version. The Sentinel is a very mediocre, "spread thin" mech. However, it's also pretty cheap, and nothing about it is particularly threatening, meaning it often gets to plink away all game, and then is often left in fairly good shape by the end of a match, where it shapes up fairly well against battered heavies and crippled lights. The Charger is also a pretty good example. Nobody is singling out a Charger on a battle line when there's a Marauder or something also there, unless they have a crippling phobia of melee, and a Charger is cheaper, and more durable than a lot of those Mechs, too. A Charger that soaks all the big, penetrating guns that might threaten your other, more valuable Mechs makes you better prepared for late game, a Charger that gets ignored can get in and start pulling legs off is quickly racking up value. Aaaaand even better, if the enemy starts by ignoring the charger, then panics and focuses on it has spread their damage as ineffectually as possible.
neat video, i love the black knight, and the catapult, my favorite mech of all time has to be the Goshawk/Vapor Eagle, though i always wanted to outfit it with stealth capabilities ECM and whatnot, it just had that stealthy alien mech vibe to me, its design always looked....well, alien, it doesn't look like most other mechs, and i really like it. my most common loadout for it in MWO was a PPC in the right arm, 2 SRM 6 or 4s i don't remember, and 3 machine guns with an enhanced targeting computer for the extra crits, and of course jump jets.
A lot of my favorite mechs are heavies. So excuse me while I nerd out about the various mechs since I have a moment. It's kind of interesting to see the perspective coming from tabletop, since I haven't messed with tabletop nearly as much as I want to. So my experience is early MWO (before everything got all crazy min-maxed), and MechWarrior 5, with a smidge of early BattleTech the video game (since I actually failed the one campaign I played and haven't had a chance to go back to it yet). So of the notable mechs that stand out for me: Dragon: One of the two mechs that got me warmed up to the Inner Sphere (I practically came from MechWarrior 2 where it's all clan mechs, where I didn't know the IS even existed). However, I could never get the mech to work, and even when I did do decently, I felt like I had to work significantly harder than using any other heavy mech. Interesting to see how much it struggles in Tabletop as well. I just always assumed it was all about going in and meleeing enemies due to it's speed, armor and being narrow/low profile & stable, but I don't quite know how effective that kind of strategy is in Tabletop. Can't imagine it being anywhere near hilariously strong as the "dragon bowling" in extremely early MWO though (oh my god, that was 10 years ago!?). Catapult: The other mech that warmed me up to the IS. The catapult has everything I want in an LRM boat. Decent armor, 4 medium lasers for backup that always shock the enemy with how much they hurt, jumpjets for aditional mobility, and everything else into the biggest pair of LRMs you can fit on the thing. Also, the MWO version of the Catapult is one of my favorite IS designs. It just surprises me to see that it does amazing in tabletop as well. I dunno how much the lack of arms effects how well it does things, but even then, it's more of a support mech so I feel like it wouldn't even matter. I remember hearing something about salvage bonuses and stuff, but I dunno if that's optional rules or whatever. ... On a side note, Kurita removing the LRMs and jumpjets makes me so mad with them that when I was deciding what faction I'd want to pick, that was one of the biggest things going against Kurita. You just can't do that to my favorite IS mech! It doesn't even function like a catapult anymore! Funny that it's lower in the tier list. Crusader: Ever since the expansion, I was basically forced into the mech because it was the only mech added, but no one else wanted to pilot it but thought it was cool. Then the more we use it, the funnier the mech is, since they repainted my mech so it looks like they have pink thigh high socks & arm wraps, and it just sticks out like crazy among the rest of the paint jobs the rest of the squad uses. Then we make jokes about how the horn thing on top makes it look like a unicorn, and then there's just various other funny things about the mech that makes us love it and it's hard to imagine us playing missions with heavy mechs where I'm not a crusader nowadays. Then it comes to gameplay, holy crud, it's now one of my go-tos. LRMs like catapult, but has more missile fun by replaced 2 lasers with SRMS, and it has machineguns so you can pew pew while you're overheating. Liao variant sacrifices a bit too much firepower for the jumpjets, but it's still fun! Also unlike the catapult, I can actually punch things with the Crusader in MW5, which is an interesting difference between MW5 and tabletop since I'm pretty sure catapult can still kick people's shins. All that said, it's nothing spectacular, and I can only imagine how poorly it'd work in tabletop, so I see why it was rated so low. Archer: Everyone "mains" the archer at some point, except for the one person that doesn't understand LRMs and prefers simple cheese by slapping 4 large lasers on a rifleman. The archer got long range firepower, mediums for back up, it's got armor, it's got big swole arms to punch things. It's just such a nice mech that anyone can use, and it's so reliable to get it. Nice to see it does well in Tabletop as well, I just didn't think it would do that well. Marauder: Another favorite of the people that gathered to play MW5 with me. However, no one likes to stay with it for very long. Not a single person keeps the PPCs and swaps them out for large lasers asap... except for me since I love the instant damage, and PPCs look cool. That said, PPCs are outright inferior to large lasers in MW5. Gets the job done, but leaves people wanting more from the mech, so it doesn't keep people's attention forever. Funny how tabletop seems to be the same way. Grasshopper/Guillotine: I didn't hear people talk about Grasshopper much, but my god actually using it.... It's just so dang good! In one of my runs for MW5 it was one of my only heavies early on and I wanted to get some extra c-bills so friends could buy stuff. It just shocked me how ridiculously strong it was because being tanky and dealing damage with jumpjets allowing repositioning to be easy. I'm surprised that it being ridiculously good transferred back into tabletop so well. This makes me want the Guillotine to get into the games at some point because the Guillotine looks so cool, but I prefer a SRM 6 over a LRM 5. I never take LRM 5s for any mech...... Unless I'm playing a very weak mech in MWO to make people take cover when they don't need to :3 Orion: I used to view it as a boring mech, but my view changed after a while. After looking into the different factions to see which one I like to stick with, Marik seems to be the one, and they love the Orion. Also me loving the clans a bunch, I love saying that it's "Kerensky's mech". Then gameplay-wise, it seems to be very reliable actually. Tons of armor by default, with a very nicely balanced loadout to do a little bit of everything. It's actually becoming one of my go-tos (well, if I wasn't "forced" into the crusader nowadays), even if none of my friends want to pilot this thing. I figured it'd do decently in tabletop, but I didn't think it'd do that well.
I think the Marauder is missing rarity percentages in the video? Not expecting you to re-edit the video, but can you add those to the description? (building a RAT for an upcoming campaign based on your rarity figures)
I just found your channel and wanted to say I appreciate what you did with it, detailed short descriptions without bias go a long way to spreading cbills out! Thank you sir, uhh, gelatinous blob, dude? Also I will still be taking my Marauder 2R lol. Got lucky enough to salvage one during a job.
Amazing video! Largely agree with most of what you said, but even where I disagree it is a great overview of their roles and general performance and a great guide! Really excited about any future tier lists and analyses!
It should be noted that is the more user friendly Bombardier. The original design was meant to only use proprietary ammunition for proprietary launchers.
I don't agree with some of your ratings, but I respect and enjoy the work. There are a lot of things I don't think you're taking fully into account. For example, 3025 Battletech? 3025 Mechwarrior? 3025 Battleforce? 3025 Solaris 7? Or any of the many computer games? Just using the quirks on some mechs can change them drastically. Here is the best example I can think of: If you're using a Rifleman against other mechs, and think it is bad, have you asked yourself what it was designed for? While pressed into service against other mechs, it isn't the role it was intended for. And if you're not using AeroTech in your Battletech, are you really playing Battletech, or Battletech light?
He's rating the mechs specifically with regards to how useful they are to a typical mercenary outfit. The Rifleman is _very_ useful if you're a house battalion commander - less so if you're a merc who can only operate three lances to begin with. He points out that the Orion also has Anti-Air Targeting, and thus is generally a better option for a merc's anti-air needs, since it can also stand in the battle line and isn't limited to this one very specific job that won't always be needed (whereas, at least for a merc, tussling with other mechs is guaranteed to always be needed). Even for all that, however, he _does_ also say that if you happen to be a merc who actually _does_ need a mech that is solely dedicated to the anti-aircraft role, that the Rifleman is it (and actually better than the Jagermech since it explodes less and has more armour), but he generally advises against mercs utilizing mechs that are too over-specialized.
Our good ol' Captain once tried to pass over buying a Black Knight; we had to threaten to riot because he was trying to buy some weird-ass Lostech thing instead. At least he admitted we were right after he piloted the thing for the first time. Now, the trick with the Dragon is to get the DRG-1G variant, or "The Poor Man's Grand:" it's not great, but it's available, and it's surprisingly good so long as you remember to shoot all the LRM ammo before throwing hands.
@@SirBroadsword If I remember right, it was basically a crate of man-portable PPCs, meant to be equally useful against Elementals and low armor mechs. It would have been a decent ambush weapon, but we didn't have Battlearmor, or elite grunts, so it would have required a big shift in tactics, and the costs of that add up quick.
Umh, Otto? Doesn´t Tier List expand when you place more pics in it? I have seen this with others using it... Kudos for adding the respective artists to each mech drawing/photo, they deserve some attention as well. Bashing the Dragon certainly would get you the ire of House Kurita, but given their general stance on Mercenaries, i think they did you a favor with this XD Fascinatingly, your way to analyze has led to some usually supposedly powerful mechs to be surprisingly low on the list, while others are rated way higher than in-universe lore suggests. And you say nice things about the Guillotine, which i personally like! Though the "ll" is silent, because it´s french, don´t ask, i don´t understand it either.
Warhammer 6L is also not too bad. Trades MGs for flamers but keeps the SRM6, technically "Worse" at heat management if you're ever firing the flamers and PPCs at once, but only has one small ammo bomb instead of a second massive one.
The only reason my group has Dragons, is because we stumbled on a very old Drac base with two lances of em mothballed there... Bad mech, but they were free, and we have yet to have to find any more parts. I still want more Thunderbolts though.
The first time I encountered the Grasshopper and trying to shoot and stomp it to pulp with 3 of my mechs. IT TOOK ME more than 3 ROUNDS to destroy it. So seeing the mech on the S tier, I would definitely can't disagree on that. I have more story to tell, but it is a best mech to have, 10/10.
The text in the Catapult sections is wrong (it shows the previous DRG-1G specs for the CPLT C1 and K2, also claims K2 has LRM ammo). Accurate Fast Stats would be as follows: CPLT-C1: 2x LRM-15, 4x Medium Lasers. 0-25% explosion in left & right torso CPLT-K2: 2x PPC, 2x Medium Lasers, 2x Machine Guns. 0-8.33% explosion in center torso.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed If only youtube didn't take away annotations so you could put those over the section of your video to correct the issue like we could in the past. But no google knows better how to run this site than its users. Thanks for all the amazing work with this video though.
I think if you made a video explaining why things like crits, piercing and all the stuff you evaluate actually means for a newbie. It can be a lot for someone who doesn't know why you want to balance it in a lance.
Good point! There are a few videos like that on the channel. But I will try to touch on the concepts quickly in these videos. I can't really spend -too- much time doing it though as I need to keep the video moving.
So an over all well done video, a couple things that sliped by like the K2 you audiably mention twin ppcs but the fast stats say LRM 10 and 1 ppc. One thing i will say and I don't know if anyone else brought it up is the Rifleman 2N is a medium mech. The original 1N and upgraded 2N Riflemen are both 50 tons, and then when the 3N comes along the chassis is shifted into the 60 ton heavy. I would of gone with the 4D as even through it is fairly recent it is the same base heavy chassis as the 3N and is a reasonable field refit with a similar kit to the 2N
Very cool to see, with a lot of hard work to make choices look easy. As someone who mostly just watches MWO for battletech based entertainment though, seeing the loadouts of sucession era mechs hurts a little. Plus dealing with all the things that the game glosses over, like ammo explosions, parts availability, repair costs and the like shows flaws not apparent in MWO.
While Heavies and Lights are more or less simple to measure (btw, I find the lack of attention to Jump Jets strange), Mediums are the workhorses of Battletech, with things like the Crab, Griffin, Assassin, bushwacker, hunchback... or the clan's overperformes in MWO hunchback IIC and shadow cat XD. Assaults have such lovely things like the MAD-4L (100 tons, jumpjets, STEALTH, gauss & 1 PPC), the classic Highlander (and his "burial" maneuver xD), the iconic Atlas, King Crab, Stalker, Cyclops...
I organized things into categories. So most cav mechs (or hybrids) are gonna have jump jets. And yeah! There's a reason why I hit the lights and heavies first!
Just getting started with the table top game and digging in, what does salvage or aviable mean. Are the rules for that in the " complete " rulebook? We just played some games by tonnage
I am both surprised at how high my favourite mech places (the Cataphract) and also disappointed (though not surprised) with how low it places. I do wonder what your opinions are of the 0X and 4X designs, even if the 4X is a smidge later in the timeline than you cover for these lists.
You can use the Cataphract! It's just not as stable as some other choices. I'm sure you could fit it into a 6 man unit that's more ranged focused so the Cataphract gets to save its armor! It's got some really good offense. As for the 4X, I don't think of it too highly as it has a single piercing weapon and is packed with ammo. AC/5s by themselves aren't great. The 0X looks interesting if you want to mess around with E-Warfare, but I'd have to test it!
I think of the Cataphract as more of a support mech that can run into the battle line if needed. If you use up or dump the ammo (only 10 shots), it is an energy boat, so a little harder to take down. Although it has a minimum range, you can also use it to ward off harassing lights while your main support continues firing at the battle line. Otto rated it as a pure battle line mech, so it's understandable that it would rate lower. It's hard to compete with the Thunderbolt and Orion!
Hey Otto, you may need to change the Availability of the Merlin real soon, I've heard some talk from the suits in the Commonwealth that a company on Vendrell is planning on buying a production license for the Mech, could be something to look into.
Thanks for doing these lists as you no only describe the mechs but do it in almost a story like fashion. Just wondering: Is it just me or are raptorial mechs (like the CPLT-C1) just not very viable in this game? I'm very much considering getting some but my favorite style of mechs (raptorials) seem to do pretty bad or are just average. I mostly want to get some for their looks but if I want to play, it seems I am going to have a hard time. Now I do know that this game has some really cool tank options, as well as flyers and infantry so I might get some as well. Do you have any suggestions or locations for me to go to so I can see all types? Also: Is it possible to run an only tank, flyer or infantry army? I know that infantry seem to be there to just die for fun and to fill up niche points, but I was hoping they'd at least have some real purpose other than that. I've read that some infantry are literally designed to jump-jet to opponents with satchel charges. I also have read that tank platoons seem only to be good for rage quits (how?) and no one seems to have any info on the aircraft options.
The Catapult is very good! I would just go with mechs if you're just starting out. There are some pretty broken combos if you start going too far into the combined arms stuff.
"Raptorials" to describe chicken-leg mechs. That's sure a new one on me. >seem to do pretty bad or are just average In any case, this isn't true at all. The Catapult is quite good, the Marauder is decent, the Mongoose is superb, and the Locust is the premiere cheap, disposable scouting mech. For assault mechs you have the King Crab and Stalker, which I believe are at least competent. Running _exclusively_ chicken-walkers probably won't work, especially as your only real option for mediums there is the Crab, but the Crab itself is fine. Moreover, if you ever find yourself playing the Advanced 3062 mod for HBS Battletech, you can take the Cicada (a garbage fire of a mech in 3025) and turn it into an absolute monster using FedCom Civil War-era technology. The mod also includes the Talos 3M, a variant unique to Advanced 3062 that is among the best melee weapon mechs in the mod, and absolutely hilarious to use with a pilot with the Juggernaught perk.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed Do these excellent grades and evaluations consider how a heavy mech will handle the dangerous terrains, fragile objectives, combined arms threats, and uneven fights? As a Mercenary commander of the-- *checks smeared note* --Wolf's Pantaloons, I'm interested to know your recommendations for the least likely Mechs to jeopardize mission objectives and the Mechs most likely to carry the company should we ever be lured into a trap, be dropped too close or far, and face unexpected threats before the dropship can pick us up.
The cataphact can mount the same ecm systems as the raven. You claim it has no utility? The variant is ctf-0x. It ends up being one of the best mechs in the 2018 turn based game for its stealth mechanic being on a heavy hitting mech. On the tabletop the cataphract can disable active probes, artIV, narc, and c3. In both game setting the cataphract has serious utility value.
It's probably pretty good! But lore wise it's quite rare in 3025. Considering it's rarity I think it's was okay for me to not consider. "A single shipment of CTF-0X prototypes was sent to Sian but line production did not commence afterwards because a request for more EW components was denied." Experimental Technical Readout: Succession Wars, Volume 1, p. 6 That being said on further review I do think the original variant is a bit underrated on the defense side. The 11% explosion chance is probably acceptable. Hope that clears things up!
Ah the lancelot. A mech that if swapping out the PPC and the medium laser for a pair of LRM-5s and a ton of Ammo plus a heatsink and 2 tons of armor would have one heck of a solid variant.
I know you can't do every variant of every mech on here, but I honestly feel the Cataphract 1X is a significantly better mech for the time period than the 2X. The PPC for range, only ammunition is the 1 ton of autocannon ammo and 4 medium lasers split between the front and the back. But again, there are three entire experimental variants of the Cataphract, and the mainline model was produced by the Federated Suns, so I can't really complain about how you pick them. That being said, I might not be able to call of the assassin's this time. Calling the Cataphract an F just 3 short years before we lose it to the FedSuns hurts. It hurts deep.
Rules question. If a mech is on elevation 0, has partial cover from a lvl 1 hill and is being shot at by a mech 5 hexs away on a lvl 3 hill. Does the mech behind the hill still get the +1 partial? Even bigger do any hits at the mech that go to legs still count as hitting the hill?
![[TH] FS vs BME - VCT Ascension Pacific - Lower Bracket Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wnygqsR2Fig/mqdefault.jpg)
I wish you would do this for every weight class. It's so good.
I'll be getting to them!
Can't wait for assault class, I want to see where my AWS rates
I cried when I realized you weren’t going to be talking about the MadCat….
I went from starting with the Light Tier… Only to realize he hadn’t made a Medium Tier list yet…
Can't wait for the medium list. Though I understand it's a lot of work
I constantly, constantly forget that the flashman is a mech that exists and is in fact pretty dang good
It is pretty good! Only really available to the Lyrans in 3025 tho. :)
Bug AP about it. Maybe he'll let you find one in a Brian Cache.
I play comstar and use it pretty often, great machine
I actually just got one today. I’m excited to use it in my ComStar lance!
The 8k with its original targeting system using the quirks from Battletechnology issue #14 is unquestionably the best Heavy mech in 3025/3039... even a downgraded 7k with an original 8k targeting system is better than the rest. The quirks are just that strong... +2 To Hit with lasers (makes them pulses for hitting purposes) & produces less heat when firing lasers. The SLDF really did a great job with that one... the Marauder gets all the glory from the Gunslinger program but the Flashman was the Mechwarrior mech of choice composing entire Battalions of them by the end of the civil war.
>He got banished from the Combine for shit talking the Dragon.
I literally died laughing. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Not only him, but many, many DC samurai
The longer I am in the DC, the harder it is to keep quiet.
hue hue hue
One thing I didn't see mentioned in the Exterminator and Crusader segments is the fact they only carry 10 heat sinks. That *really* limits their offensive output.
Crusader's going to either use short range or long range weaponry, but not both at the same time. Should be able to help with heat management.
As for the Exterminator it's an ambush mech. It's only really capable of short bursts of activity.
There is always the CRD-3D.
@@1nONLY_DRock Although really, the 3025 Exterminator shouldn't have any of the stealth systems and lostech that actually made it work for ambushes. It ends up just being crap or working outside its intended role when stuck using introtech.
The Crusader would rate more highly if it had better heat management... especially when you add in how common replacement parts are.
Yes, the damage output due to heat sinks was baked into the offense category!
These tier list videos are incredibly useful for the MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries game. I just spent 10M C-Bills on an old Catapult and a Black Knight.
Always loved the 6D warhammer, the base mech is pretty good and the 6D just refines it into a really solid mech that’ll almost always perform to an acceptable level
Better yet - "Warhammer is good enough, at war it means "Perfect"". (c) Mr Tex of Black Pants Legion.
@@retrosquadchannel2.050 aye that it is, the 6D is the warhammer that takes it to a whole extra level of good enough
It's really really good. Almost like a mini-Awesome
I love seeing the Guillotine get some love, it's my favorite mech of all time, so much so that I will always use it as my command mech, even if there are assaults available.
It's really good!
@@nerdyOveranalyzed Really wish you had pronounced the name correctly though.
The Grasshopper is so surprisingly good. I don't entirely understand it myself, but whenever I use a Grasshopper, it does really well.
It's got near perfect armor, excellent weapon placement, and a really good armament. It's good for nearly everything!
And can get out of trouble too with the jump jets.
It's easy to overlook because it doesn't have any eye catching weapons like AC20s or PPCs, just one LLaser. But it's max armored and is heat neutral, which is basically a cheat code in 3025 tech.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed and jumps!
I love the GRH and the GLTs. In my current MekHQ campain I have 1 GHR and 4 GLTs, one of which is the Star League version. It is 3068, but I would still take them against almost everything the IS has to offer in the same weightclass. With their mobility they can often get behind enemies as well.
The evaluation for the Exterminator somehow manages to get worse when you really start digging into it. First up, all versions have the Difficult to Maintain quirk. Second, the -4A variant? Only 25 were confirmed produced. Lastly, being designed as a "headhunter" Mech, all the Great Houses formed task groups specifically to hunt it down when the Succession Wars broke out. The Exterminator is functionally extinct in the Inner Sphere, unless a certain interstellar telecom company has a few stashed away somewhere.
Ye, it has a really cool name, but he heat issues really gimped it for my friend when were were playing in a campaign. D:
6:25 ......In my 36 years of Battletech, I have NEVER heard someone say the Archer does not have the legendary history of the Marauder. This could be argued especially when the Archer and Warhammer both were participants in one of the IS most infamous Duels in 3016 on Mallory's World.. Morgan Kell, In his Beloved Archer VS Yorinaga Kurita piloting his tried and True Warhammer. This infamous duel boosted both Mech Chassis and Both Mech Pilots to the vaunted LEGENDARY status.... Very interesting watch and a very good layout. I personally disagree with some of your conclusions on your tier rating list but as a whole it is a good list and a GREAT starting point.
The solution for a problem is a Vindicator.
The solution for a bigger problem are more Vindicators.
Xin Sheng!
Seriously, you would be surprised how nasty a company of them is.
Things to note. Black Knight: oven of a mech even in the FWL variant. The amount of heat sinks nowhere near enough to cool off even it's primary armament. For instance -L variant will gain 2 Heat by firing all 3 Large Lasers, while standing still. And you probably don't want to stand still. The standard variant gains whooping 6 heat heat, by doing the same thing (standing still and firing long range). Maybe it has a lot of gun, but unlike Flashman it can't reliably put all of that gun to use.
MAD is legendary not just because of it's style or stories associated with it. It has the grand combo of "Command Mech", "Hyper Extending Actuators" and "Narrow/Low Profile" quirks. Which don't kick in normally, unless you are using advanced rules, but if you do use those advanced rules (Quirks, Direct Blows, Glancing Blows) it allows MAD eat some hilarious amounts of damage, if it sticks behind cover, in the woods and far enough. A stray shot from AC/20 reduced to 5 damage? Yes, please! AC/2 doing literally nothing? Thank you very much!
So if you want really hard to hit Heavy, you'll have to turn to Ostroc or Ostsol. While being 5/8 is nice, they have real problems with taking a punch and heat dissipation.
Heya! Net Heat +2 is actually what you want! It's a great heat gain to have. You get 3 turns of 3 large lasers and then use a different combo to cool down.
MAD I only use the "Narrow/Low Profile" quirk rules in my games. Maybe that's why it's so low? The quirk is very good but the armor on the Marauder's side torsos isn't high enough to take advantage of it properly. "Command Mech" can be gotten on the more stable Archer, and "Hyper Extending Actuators" doesn't come into play too often to be of too much use imo.
Hope that helps!
@@nerdyOveranalyzed Note that +2 Heat is while standing still. Which is very unlikely to happen on a brawler like Black Knight. So you are in +3 on walking or +4 on running, which is less than ideal. And that's only shooting 3 guns out of 8 Black Knight has.
A severely overgunned machine that could use a little bit more HS and/or armour. And that's FWL variant. Standard variant has 20 HS for a PPC and two LLs, which you kind of want to shoot in a go. But that would be 26 heat standing, 28 heat running. Which is pretty terrible. Again, the rest of the armament isn't included into this. Even if you plan on shooting PPC and LLs and then just LLs, you will still be at 4 heat after the 2 LLs round, meaning you need either 2 turns of that to cool off, or switch to MLs. Or just one LL. Machines like AWS-8Q can easily afford standing still and shooting, because they were built like a barn door and can take a punishment.
Black Knight, for all it's armament, kind of doesn't do that very well.
@@nemamiah7832 idk Commander. It works for me! D:
@@nerdyOveranalyzed And that's great. It would very very boring if we had agreed on everything. Then I wouldn't have to argue with people that Whitworth is a good mech actually :D
@@nerdyOveranalyzed Agreed. 3-2-3-2 while running into brawl range has worked out pretty well for me.
Love that you explained the logic behind the ratings, way better than tier-style comparisons from other creators. Thanks for putting this together.
You're welcome Commander! Glad it helped clarify things. Hope you're enjoying the game!
I love the Stalker on the tabletop. Even though my dice rolls aren't very lucky, it generally hits like an absolute truck and becomes a priority for my opponents, leaving my more fragile mechs unmolested.
I'd have to test it more but it looks like a beast! Glad you're enjoying!
The Stalker is such an absolute menace. You don't want to leave it alive because it's got so much firepower, but you don't want to waste shots on it because its so damn tanky. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
this channel always delivering
Thanks for getting me into the MRC. I had one of the hardest lineups in the tournament and still went 2-2: first time playing battletech competitively like that. Your videos make me wanna get better at the game
Ah ha! So that is you in the MRC channel I see sometimes lol. Grats on your wins!
I find it fascinating that before finding your channel, I evaluated every mech listed (except the Merlin, which is not available) the same way in MW5 except for the Quickdraw. Though it may need a small refit to bring the rear-facing medium lasers forward, it's ability to reposition to head off enemy flankers makes it, IMO, a solid Battleline/Bodyguard unit. I do think, however, it would be a 5th/6th 'mech, instead of a main Lance inclusion, unless you are able to make more extensive refits.
Great list. Convinced me to refit my Marauder. Can't wait for the medium and assault ones.
Thanks! Glad they helped. Medium and assault are on their way!
THOUGH I understand your gripe about the eridani thunderbolt, pairs very well with grasshoppers in direct assault and flanking pairs. While not as heat efficient still has more addded HS to help after a jump assault. Still feel its a less is more mech like some other while being a brick wall that flies.
He should have picked the Steiner Thunderbolt. Far better in battle than the jumpy waste of money version.
Very true. I might have underrated the Eridani thunderbolt? I dunno. You make a good point.
Still gonna bring a rifleman at every possible opportunity
Hyper-extending actuators and Directional Torso Mount(RT) means that the Marauder can fire all of it's weapons into the rear arc significantly mitigating the threat from being flanked AND it has Narrow/Low Profile, one of the absolute best quirks in the entire game in addition to being a command mech.
thank you, i have been writing a "A Time of total warfare" campaign for my friends for a couple years now (one day our schedules will align lol) and have been struggling to pick the mechs i want to show up in the campaign. this really does help
You totally used my Thunderbolt mini as a picture. Im flattered! Great video dude - holla if you need any mech pics for upcoming vids!
Fantastic as always!
As someone who doesn't play with quirks or rarity/availability factoring into our games, I really appreciate how you break out each metric and weighted category so its easy to filter out what info is pertinent for your table vs. another's.
totally seperate food for thought - i personally did a spreadsheet comparison of all the (succession wars era) heavy mechs and variants with x2 PPCs as their main weapon as i noticed how many go for that loadout, just comparing their armor, other weapons, heatsinking, etc. to see how they stack against each other. Noticed some interesting properties in the minutia of differences. Curious if an idea like that ever crossed your plans, such as comparing all mechs with a singular similarity. Like all with an AC10, or every one with x4 medium lasers. Like if those weapons are your goal, which package is best/best suits you?
Hmm, I think I have some other plans for content but I did notice some common patterns in design. Ex. Double PPCs, LRM+Medium Laser+Speed, PPC+SRM, SRM Boat, LRM Boat. I think it will be sufficient to cover all the 3025 mechs in tier lists and then move onto adding to those ideas.
The FWL Marauder MAD-3M is my favorite variant, swapping the 2 PPCs for 2 Large Lasers and 4 extra heat sinks, while the range and damage are slightly reduced, the MADs troublesome heat issues are totally corrected and actually it will probably put out more overall damage as a result.
I like how you hadn't even talked about the Bombardier yet and it was already showing up at F tier already (4:06). Honestly, it deserves to be lower.
Love the Guillotine and the Grasshopper. Love those bully mechs, showing up in unwanted places or pushing out zones of control. Lights and mediums? TRY AND RUN, COWARDS!
... I mean...yes they can...but I can zone em out and even protect vulnerable bits by jump jetting around and twisting to face faster things.
This is really cool. I am not hardcore into Battletech but have played a few of the video games, in which custom loadouts for you mech is always one of the main facets. I'm not sure if this is true for other aspects of the franchise. All these mech seem to be evaluated w/ a particular preset loadout, but wonder if it would be possible to do an analysis like this but of only the frames/chassis as a baseline. That would be very helpful for people like me trying to understand how to build their squad up from the ground lvl, but it might have to much variability to be a viable task.
On his individual mech videos he usually has one 'suggested' custom load out that doesn't cost much to retrofit from a base model.
In tabletop any mech of any tonnage could theoretically be converted into any other mech of the same tonnage. So while deep analysis of custom load outs is common for the videogame it isn't a major factor on the tabletop.
Heya Commander! The analysis was done on the baseline chassis. If there were other variants I picked the most notable and did an analysis on that one as well. Hope that clears things up!
It is remarkable that the thud is one of the oldest mechs of all, yet it still puts in the work.
Yeah, it's a really good work horse. Quite solid!
As far as frontliners go, I must say, I love the good old Orion. The mini-Atlas. It was Kerensky's favourite for a good reason. It is a solid "everymech" machine in my eyes. Something you take when you do not know what to expect.
Ranged mechs and range hybrids - I like the Marauder, but it is too expensive and runs horribly hot and I feel like it is very vulnerable to being swarmed.
For lurms, I like the Archer - it is objectively a fantastic machine if you can prevent it from running hot. But I do have a soft spot for a good old CAT - low ammunition counts hamper it, though.
In my opinion, you can't go wrong with a Warhammer if you need a PPC sniper - especially a D variant. Basically, a more manageable, if less glamorous Marauder.
Heavy cav mechs and line hybrids - I find most of them disappointing, especially on the lighter side. Many faster heavies rely on too big engines and sacrifice too much - it is usually either armour, armament, or heat management.
I do have a soft spot for a Dragon, even if it is horrible and I find it may work decently enough in numbers. The one thing it has going for it is that it is an "everymech" - so if you have ton of them and you lose one, your overall utility won't be diminished much as if you lost a specialised mech. The only problem is that better "everymechs" exist - like an Orion.
I do like a Grasshopper though. It is a decent medium and light killer. Fast and protected enough, same with Guillotine.
I already mentioned I do love myself a Catapult - but it is deceptive. It looks like a lurm boat, but most variants have suspiciously heavy secondary armament. And K2 makes for a deceptively good alternative for other dedicated PPC boats - if you were to choose a series of mechs to build a lance of - you could easily go with various versions of a CAT and will pretty much every possible role.
I've never even heard of the guillotine somehow. That thing is amazing.
Same here. I found it by looking up mechs on Sarna, but I haven't heard it mentioned anywhere (almost). It gets my vote for the most underrated Heavy mech.
@@gammafighter yea it's wild because not only is it actually a famous mech in universe, it's old in our world too. It's strange it's never really been put into games. Was it unseen, or unlucky lol
It's a beast!
OK. Not a Battletech player, but I LOVE the lore and world building. Got almost All of the PC games (I'm old and can't sink as much cash into a new PC). The level of detail here is amazing. Auto subed. Really impressed.
Fricken autocorrect on subed!
Dude the T bolt SE version is light horse only no one else uses it one should have it as a foot note
Bombardier: I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.
Archer: What?
Marauder is S in our hearts every day.. best looking mech in the universe
Forever in our hearts
Fantastic video condensing all that complex information into much easier understandable display of data and lists!
Thank you! I'm happy it clears things up!
These tier list do such a good job of filtering down an overwhelming amount of info into something manageable. Thanks!!
You're welcome! Glad they're of use!
And gets rid of a lot of bias from the lore writers, they often hype up one mech even though it´s barely passable by Otto´s analyzis.
On the other hands, Otto recommends mech that, in lore, get little to no love, the entire set of Ost mechs rarely gets mentioned at all.
Though to be fair, that´s also a copyright issue...
@@sim.frischh9781otto?
@@nerdyOveranalyzed When you DO get to the assaults maybe bend 3025 a tiiiny bit to slip in 3026's 3S Banshee.
@@sim.frischh9781 Which is weird because the OSTs with their arms look nothing like the glaug pods.
Watched it once, then later came back to pause at certain points. Have my merc unit excel spreadsheet open on the other monitor, making notes!
I always like that your reviews include things relevant to mercenaries, like dropship slots, cost, availability, etc., as well as how a mech will function in a unit.
You can tell this is a good tier list because there aren't too many "S" tier, "A" and "B" tiers are still great mechs, and an example company would include down to B tier.
In my unit we tend to focus a bit more on "battleline" heavies, with ranged and cavalry heavies being picked based on their ability to either support or fill-in for that role. We don't run many assault mechs (just a Victor and a Battlemaster in the whole Battalion right now), so we lean on the heavies to fill-in to typical assault roles. We will run as many Orions, Thunderbolts, Flashmen (Flashmans?), Grasshoppers, and Black Knights as we can get out hands on, with Warhammers and Crusaders in our ranged slots. Since so many of the line mechs also have fair firepower at long range, we prefer the more hybrid ranged mechs over specialists.
At any given time, the Battalion is usually about 70% heavy mechs (with the rest being mostly mediums) since the weight class has a lot of value and versatility for mercenary missions. We can afford assault mechs, but aside from a few pilots' personal mechs we don't field them. Assault mechs are rarely the best use of dropship space.
Hey Cav Scout glad to see you again! Happy you're enjoying the videos. I do try to be a bit more strict on the ratings in order to filter out the good mechs.
Great stuff as always, nice to have you back!
Thanks! Good to see you again Spamurai!
Makes me happy to see 3025 is still going on.
It's alive and well!
Why did the RFL-3N make it on the "Core" list at the end? Was this a typo? Love these by the way. Can't wait for the assaults!
This is great information. I look forward to more videos like this one.
Are you eventually going to get to post 3025 technology?
Thanks glad you're enjoying! I will be once I finish up with 3025!
I have been playing BattleTech in one form or another for a long, long time ... and seeing some of the truly terrible standard designs get their well deserved F ratings gilled me with joy :lol: These days I ride a Marauder II but for a long part of my career I was a Marauder jockey ... that AC5 came off in very short order I can tell you :D
The 'classic' models were clearly designed to a picture rather than to performance as some of the modifications required to make them actually work are often quite simple in concept. For example, for a missile boat, as I am sure we all know but this is just to illustrate, have a pair of the biggest batteries you can fit in with four (three at a major pinch) tons of ammo and back that up with three or four Medium Lasers and enough heat sinks to fire continuously on the move. Count on most fights being over in about twelve minutes but *never* run a pure ammo-fed boat ... unless it is the absolutely insane MG-only Firestarter I have seen :)
Captain Dallas Sukerkin, Merchant Adventurer's Company, Thackstones Battalion, Third Crucis Lancers RCT, Armed Forces of the Federated Suns {Federated Commonwealth? What's that? :p}
Lol, glad you enjoyed Commander! And yeah you do seem to be correct in the early designs. :)
Now the only thing we need is an Assault Mech tier list!
I agree with your list on paper. Unfortunately, lists like this do not show how battlemechs can synergise as part of a list in a lance or company. Also, there is psychology to take into account. Mechs with a bad reputation tend to get ignored until it's too late. I can't even recall all the times I have seen garbage mechs effectively win the game because of it. Not a criticism in any way, shape, or form, just something for players to keep in mind.
Correct! It's a good starting point for tracking individual performance. Next step would be taking that list and creating good compositions from it.
Like failing to pay attention to a stock CGR-1A till you realize your oppnent just lined up a perfect textbook charge and body slams something important for 64 damage in one go
More for Mediums, but the Sentinel perfectly encapsulates this, especially the Large Laser version.
The Sentinel is a very mediocre, "spread thin" mech.
However, it's also pretty cheap, and nothing about it is particularly threatening, meaning it often gets to plink away all game, and then is often left in fairly good shape by the end of a match, where it shapes up fairly well against battered heavies and crippled lights.
The Charger is also a pretty good example. Nobody is singling out a Charger on a battle line when there's a Marauder or something also there, unless they have a crippling phobia of melee, and a Charger is cheaper, and more durable than a lot of those Mechs, too.
A Charger that soaks all the big, penetrating guns that might threaten your other, more valuable Mechs makes you better prepared for late game, a Charger that gets ignored can get in and start pulling legs off is quickly racking up value.
Aaaaand even better, if the enemy starts by ignoring the charger, then panics and focuses on it has spread their damage as ineffectually as possible.
neat video, i love the black knight, and the catapult, my favorite mech of all time has to be the Goshawk/Vapor Eagle, though i always wanted to outfit it with stealth capabilities ECM and whatnot, it just had that stealthy alien mech vibe to me, its design always looked....well, alien, it doesn't look like most other mechs, and i really like it.
my most common loadout for it in MWO was a PPC in the right arm, 2 SRM 6 or 4s i don't remember, and 3 machine guns with an enhanced targeting computer for the extra crits, and of course jump jets.
Thanks glad you enjoyed! I am quite curious about the Clan mechs as well!
A lot of my favorite mechs are heavies. So excuse me while I nerd out about the various mechs since I have a moment.
It's kind of interesting to see the perspective coming from tabletop, since I haven't messed with tabletop nearly as much as I want to. So my experience is early MWO (before everything got all crazy min-maxed), and MechWarrior 5, with a smidge of early BattleTech the video game (since I actually failed the one campaign I played and haven't had a chance to go back to it yet). So of the notable mechs that stand out for me:
Dragon: One of the two mechs that got me warmed up to the Inner Sphere (I practically came from MechWarrior 2 where it's all clan mechs, where I didn't know the IS even existed). However, I could never get the mech to work, and even when I did do decently, I felt like I had to work significantly harder than using any other heavy mech.
Interesting to see how much it struggles in Tabletop as well. I just always assumed it was all about going in and meleeing enemies due to it's speed, armor and being narrow/low profile & stable, but I don't quite know how effective that kind of strategy is in Tabletop. Can't imagine it being anywhere near hilariously strong as the "dragon bowling" in extremely early MWO though (oh my god, that was 10 years ago!?).
Catapult: The other mech that warmed me up to the IS. The catapult has everything I want in an LRM boat. Decent armor, 4 medium lasers for backup that always shock the enemy with how much they hurt, jumpjets for aditional mobility, and everything else into the biggest pair of LRMs you can fit on the thing. Also, the MWO version of the Catapult is one of my favorite IS designs.
It just surprises me to see that it does amazing in tabletop as well. I dunno how much the lack of arms effects how well it does things, but even then, it's more of a support mech so I feel like it wouldn't even matter. I remember hearing something about salvage bonuses and stuff, but I dunno if that's optional rules or whatever.
... On a side note, Kurita removing the LRMs and jumpjets makes me so mad with them that when I was deciding what faction I'd want to pick, that was one of the biggest things going against Kurita. You just can't do that to my favorite IS mech! It doesn't even function like a catapult anymore! Funny that it's lower in the tier list.
Crusader: Ever since the expansion, I was basically forced into the mech because it was the only mech added, but no one else wanted to pilot it but thought it was cool. Then the more we use it, the funnier the mech is, since they repainted my mech so it looks like they have pink thigh high socks & arm wraps, and it just sticks out like crazy among the rest of the paint jobs the rest of the squad uses. Then we make jokes about how the horn thing on top makes it look like a unicorn, and then there's just various other funny things about the mech that makes us love it and it's hard to imagine us playing missions with heavy mechs where I'm not a crusader nowadays.
Then it comes to gameplay, holy crud, it's now one of my go-tos. LRMs like catapult, but has more missile fun by replaced 2 lasers with SRMS, and it has machineguns so you can pew pew while you're overheating. Liao variant sacrifices a bit too much firepower for the jumpjets, but it's still fun! Also unlike the catapult, I can actually punch things with the Crusader in MW5, which is an interesting difference between MW5 and tabletop since I'm pretty sure catapult can still kick people's shins.
All that said, it's nothing spectacular, and I can only imagine how poorly it'd work in tabletop, so I see why it was rated so low.
Archer: Everyone "mains" the archer at some point, except for the one person that doesn't understand LRMs and prefers simple cheese by slapping 4 large lasers on a rifleman. The archer got long range firepower, mediums for back up, it's got armor, it's got big swole arms to punch things. It's just such a nice mech that anyone can use, and it's so reliable to get it. Nice to see it does well in Tabletop as well, I just didn't think it would do that well.
Marauder: Another favorite of the people that gathered to play MW5 with me. However, no one likes to stay with it for very long. Not a single person keeps the PPCs and swaps them out for large lasers asap... except for me since I love the instant damage, and PPCs look cool. That said, PPCs are outright inferior to large lasers in MW5. Gets the job done, but leaves people wanting more from the mech, so it doesn't keep people's attention forever. Funny how tabletop seems to be the same way.
Grasshopper/Guillotine: I didn't hear people talk about Grasshopper much, but my god actually using it.... It's just so dang good! In one of my runs for MW5 it was one of my only heavies early on and I wanted to get some extra c-bills so friends could buy stuff. It just shocked me how ridiculously strong it was because being tanky and dealing damage with jumpjets allowing repositioning to be easy. I'm surprised that it being ridiculously good transferred back into tabletop so well. This makes me want the Guillotine to get into the games at some point because the Guillotine looks so cool, but I prefer a SRM 6 over a LRM 5. I never take LRM 5s for any mech...... Unless I'm playing a very weak mech in MWO to make people take cover when they don't need to :3
Orion: I used to view it as a boring mech, but my view changed after a while. After looking into the different factions to see which one I like to stick with, Marik seems to be the one, and they love the Orion. Also me loving the clans a bunch, I love saying that it's "Kerensky's mech". Then gameplay-wise, it seems to be very reliable actually. Tons of armor by default, with a very nicely balanced loadout to do a little bit of everything. It's actually becoming one of my go-tos (well, if I wasn't "forced" into the crusader nowadays), even if none of my friends want to pilot this thing. I figured it'd do decently in tabletop, but I didn't think it'd do that well.
I think the Marauder is missing rarity percentages in the video? Not expecting you to re-edit the video, but can you add those to the description? (building a RAT for an upcoming campaign based on your rarity figures)
I just found your channel and wanted to say I appreciate what you did with it, detailed short descriptions without bias go a long way to spreading cbills out! Thank you sir, uhh, gelatinous blob, dude?
Also I will still be taking my Marauder 2R lol. Got lucky enough to salvage one during a job.
You can call me Otto or Nerdy!
Welcome aboard Commander! o7
Amazing video! Largely agree with most of what you said, but even where I disagree it is a great overview of their roles and general performance and a great guide! Really excited about any future tier lists and analyses!
Thanks a bunch glad you enjoyed! We don't always need to see eye to eye!
Any plan for weighing up the other big name heavies that aren't on this; king crab, annihilator, turkina
It should be noted that is the more user friendly Bombardier. The original design was meant to only use proprietary ammunition for proprietary launchers.
D: oh Krensky!
Wow this is great attention to detail. I don't even play the game but subscribed!
I don't agree with some of your ratings, but I respect and enjoy the work. There are a lot of things I don't think you're taking fully into account. For example, 3025 Battletech? 3025 Mechwarrior? 3025 Battleforce? 3025 Solaris 7? Or any of the many computer games? Just using the quirks on some mechs can change them drastically.
Here is the best example I can think of: If you're using a Rifleman against other mechs, and think it is bad, have you asked yourself what it was designed for? While pressed into service against other mechs, it isn't the role it was intended for. And if you're not using AeroTech in your Battletech, are you really playing Battletech, or Battletech light?
He's rating the mechs specifically with regards to how useful they are to a typical mercenary outfit. The Rifleman is _very_ useful if you're a house battalion commander - less so if you're a merc who can only operate three lances to begin with. He points out that the Orion also has Anti-Air Targeting, and thus is generally a better option for a merc's anti-air needs, since it can also stand in the battle line and isn't limited to this one very specific job that won't always be needed (whereas, at least for a merc, tussling with other mechs is guaranteed to always be needed). Even for all that, however, he _does_ also say that if you happen to be a merc who actually _does_ need a mech that is solely dedicated to the anti-aircraft role, that the Rifleman is it (and actually better than the Jagermech since it explodes less and has more armour), but he generally advises against mercs utilizing mechs that are too over-specialized.
Our good ol' Captain once tried to pass over buying a Black Knight; we had to threaten to riot because he was trying to buy some weird-ass Lostech thing instead. At least he admitted we were right after he piloted the thing for the first time.
Now, the trick with the Dragon is to get the DRG-1G variant, or "The Poor Man's Grand:" it's not great, but it's available, and it's surprisingly good so long as you remember to shoot all the LRM ammo before throwing hands.
Any idea what said weird lostech thing was?
@@SirBroadsword If I remember right, it was basically a crate of man-portable PPCs, meant to be equally useful against Elementals and low armor mechs. It would have been a decent ambush weapon, but we didn't have Battlearmor, or elite grunts, so it would have required a big shift in tactics, and the costs of that add up quick.
@@bubbasbigblast8563 Yeaaaah, compared to that, the Black Knight does seem a MUCH more sensible investment. ^^;
Umh, Otto? Doesn´t Tier List expand when you place more pics in it? I have seen this with others using it...
Kudos for adding the respective artists to each mech drawing/photo, they deserve some attention as well.
Bashing the Dragon certainly would get you the ire of House Kurita, but given their general stance on Mercenaries, i think they did you a favor with this XD
Fascinatingly, your way to analyze has led to some usually supposedly powerful mechs to be surprisingly low on the list, while others are rated way higher than in-universe lore suggests.
And you say nice things about the Guillotine, which i personally like! Though the "ll" is silent, because it´s french, don´t ask, i don´t understand it either.
Can we get that excel sheet? I'd love to examine that closer.
@Nerd Overanalyzed you forgot the MAD2R with dubble heat sinks
OR the warhammer 6RB
Warhammer 6L is also not too bad. Trades MGs for flamers but keeps the SRM6, technically "Worse" at heat management if you're ever firing the flamers and PPCs at once, but only has one small ammo bomb instead of a second massive one.
The only reason my group has Dragons, is because we stumbled on a very old Drac base with two lances of em mothballed there... Bad mech, but they were free, and we have yet to have to find any more parts.
I still want more Thunderbolts though.
The first time I encountered the Grasshopper and trying to shoot and stomp it to pulp with 3 of my mechs. IT TOOK ME more than 3 ROUNDS to destroy it. So seeing the mech on the S tier, I would definitely can't disagree on that. I have more story to tell, but it is a best mech to have, 10/10.
lol good to see you again Arva!
Assault guide? I want to find out how badly my beloved Banshee does.
I love your joke with the cataphract. Got into battletech recently and I love how everyone clowns on thr Capellans
What joke? :^)
The Cataput-C1, Grasshopper and Guillotine are wonderful mechs.
They are!
The text in the Catapult sections is wrong (it shows the previous DRG-1G specs for the CPLT C1 and K2, also claims K2 has LRM ammo). Accurate Fast Stats would be as follows:
CPLT-C1: 2x LRM-15, 4x Medium Lasers. 0-25% explosion in left & right torso
CPLT-K2: 2x PPC, 2x Medium Lasers, 2x Machine Guns. 0-8.33% explosion in center torso.
ye, it's corrected in the description. D: sorry!
@@nerdyOveranalyzed If only youtube didn't take away annotations so you could put those over the section of your video to correct the issue like we could in the past.
But no google knows better how to run this site than its users.
Thanks for all the amazing work with this video though.
Hold up, both the CPLT-C1 and and K2 are listed in the video as having 1x LRM-10, 1x PPC, 2x Medium Lasers.
D: Frig
I left a note in the description. thanks for the catch!
I think if you made a video explaining why things like crits, piercing and all the stuff you evaluate actually means for a newbie. It can be a lot for someone who doesn't know why you want to balance it in a lance.
He did! Look into his older videos. I think it was his first video in fact. Everything on this channel is pure gold.
Good point! There are a few videos like that on the channel. But I will try to touch on the concepts quickly in these videos. I can't really spend -too- much time doing it though as I need to keep the video moving.
I know it's not 3025, but man do I love the Thunderbolt 10SE. Such a good heavy
Good to see a new video from you again. Hope you've been keeping well.
Looking forward to you covering the Mediums/Assaults when you reach that point.
Ayyy Sven! Good to see you! I've been doing well.
Grats on your 2 movie releases! Looks like the first one came out to a really good premiere!
So an over all well done video, a couple things that sliped by like the K2 you audiably mention twin ppcs but the fast stats say LRM 10 and 1 ppc.
One thing i will say and I don't know if anyone else brought it up is the Rifleman 2N is a medium mech.
The original 1N and upgraded 2N Riflemen are both 50 tons, and then when the 3N comes along the chassis is shifted into the 60 ton heavy. I would of gone with the 4D as even through it is fairly recent it is the same base heavy chassis as the 3N and is a reasonable field refit with a similar kit to the 2N
Yeah there are a few typos D: Glad you enjoyed!
@@nerdyOveranalyzed i just saw you dropped the medium mech tier list, expect a comment there later.
Black knight my beloved high wattage flashlight
Very cool to see, with a lot of hard work to make choices look easy. As someone who mostly just watches MWO for battletech based entertainment though, seeing the loadouts of sucession era mechs hurts a little. Plus dealing with all the things that the game glosses over, like ammo explosions, parts availability, repair costs and the like shows flaws not apparent in MWO.
Glad you're enjoying the content. It's always nice that people who come from other games enjoy it too. :)
While Heavies and Lights are more or less simple to measure (btw, I find the lack of attention to Jump Jets strange), Mediums are the workhorses of Battletech, with things like the Crab, Griffin, Assassin, bushwacker, hunchback... or the clan's overperformes in MWO hunchback IIC and shadow cat XD.
Assaults have such lovely things like the MAD-4L (100 tons, jumpjets, STEALTH, gauss & 1 PPC), the classic Highlander (and his "burial" maneuver xD), the iconic Atlas, King Crab, Stalker, Cyclops...
I organized things into categories. So most cav mechs (or hybrids) are gonna have jump jets. And yeah! There's a reason why I hit the lights and heavies first!
*sigh* at least my shadowhawk will stay cool with all the shade.
Hue hue hue :^). It does well in the video games and in Alpha Strike at least~
I feel you man, my tin can Cataphract was dissed too.
Sometimes it's not about efficiency, but enjoyment. Or Glory to the Coordinator.
Good video, fun to watch and solid analysis.
Thanks Commander I'm glad you enjoyed!
Hey, is there some way of learning how you rate these mechs so I'm able to do it for my custom mechs?
Welcome back Intelligence Officer Nerdy.
I'm just a mech tech! D:
I normally use the warhammer and marauder I like PPC sniping as my play style
Great video. Glad your channel is picking up steam
Is this meant for standard Battletech or Alpha Strike? I thought "piercing weapons/attacks" were an Alpha Strike thing.
Just getting started with the table top game and digging in, what does salvage or aviable mean. Are the rules for that in the " complete " rulebook? We just played some games by tonnage
Try looking into Xotl Rats tables! That should clear things up
@@nerdyOveranalyzed Ty for the answer, beeing new in this hobby i have to say: i get more and more confused every day
Lets see what the Poring has to say about my lil Catapult.
Loved the video!
Great video
Fantastic! Did you ever do the Vindicator as I don't see a video of it posted but I think you referenced a video on it before.
Nuh, never did the Vindicator. It's a pretty decent bodyguard mech though!
I am both surprised at how high my favourite mech places (the Cataphract) and also disappointed (though not surprised) with how low it places. I do wonder what your opinions are of the 0X and 4X designs, even if the 4X is a smidge later in the timeline than you cover for these lists.
You can use the Cataphract! It's just not as stable as some other choices.
I'm sure you could fit it into a 6 man unit that's more ranged focused so the Cataphract gets to save its armor! It's got some really good offense. As for the 4X, I don't think of it too highly as it has a single piercing weapon and is packed with ammo. AC/5s by themselves aren't great. The 0X looks interesting if you want to mess around with E-Warfare, but I'd have to test it!
I think of the Cataphract as more of a support mech that can run into the battle line if needed. If you use up or dump the ammo (only 10 shots), it is an energy boat, so a little harder to take down. Although it has a minimum range, you can also use it to ward off harassing lights while your main support continues firing at the battle line. Otto rated it as a pure battle line mech, so it's understandable that it would rate lower. It's hard to compete with the Thunderbolt and Orion!
Hey Otto, you may need to change the Availability of the Merlin real soon, I've heard some talk from the suits in the Commonwealth that a company on Vendrell is planning on buying a production license for the Mech, could be something to look into.
I'll keep an eye out for it Commander! The mech seems quite sensible!
@@nerdyOveranalyzed I heard some Aurigan joint with one tried picking a fight with you a couple times, but dipped before any real combat was had.
Great content as always. I'm gonna be selfish here, but upload more if you can!
Thanks for doing these lists as you no only describe the mechs but do it in almost a story like fashion.
Just wondering: Is it just me or are raptorial mechs (like the CPLT-C1) just not very viable in this game? I'm very much considering getting some but my favorite style of mechs (raptorials) seem to do pretty bad or are just average. I mostly want to get some for their looks but if I want to play, it seems I am going to have a hard time. Now I do know that this game has some really cool tank options, as well as flyers and infantry so I might get some as well. Do you have any suggestions or locations for me to go to so I can see all types?
Also: Is it possible to run an only tank, flyer or infantry army? I know that infantry seem to be there to just die for fun and to fill up niche points, but I was hoping they'd at least have some real purpose other than that. I've read that some infantry are literally designed to jump-jet to opponents with satchel charges. I also have read that tank platoons seem only to be good for rage quits (how?) and no one seems to have any info on the aircraft options.
The Catapult is very good!
I would just go with mechs if you're just starting out. There are some pretty broken combos if you start going too far into the combined arms stuff.
"Raptorials" to describe chicken-leg mechs. That's sure a new one on me.
>seem to do pretty bad or are just average
In any case, this isn't true at all. The Catapult is quite good, the Marauder is decent, the Mongoose is superb, and the Locust is the premiere cheap, disposable scouting mech. For assault mechs you have the King Crab and Stalker, which I believe are at least competent. Running _exclusively_ chicken-walkers probably won't work, especially as your only real option for mediums there is the Crab, but the Crab itself is fine.
Moreover, if you ever find yourself playing the Advanced 3062 mod for HBS Battletech, you can take the Cicada (a garbage fire of a mech in 3025) and turn it into an absolute monster using FedCom Civil War-era technology. The mod also includes the Talos 3M, a variant unique to Advanced 3062 that is among the best melee weapon mechs in the mod, and absolutely hilarious to use with a pilot with the Juggernaught perk.
In what world does the K2 Catapult have an lrm? It mounts dual PPCs.
in the world where I screwed up the slides
Did this friendly orange blob just call my beloved Marauder average!!
Fantastic video
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!
Wait a catapult c1 has a ppc?
Grasshopper for life
"Well this does explain things... and creates more questions."
*confused warden studying*
D: what sort of questions do you have Commander?
@@nerdyOveranalyzed Do these excellent grades and evaluations consider how a heavy mech will handle the dangerous terrains, fragile objectives, combined arms threats, and uneven fights? As a Mercenary commander of the--
*checks smeared note*
--Wolf's Pantaloons, I'm interested to know your recommendations for the least likely Mechs to jeopardize mission objectives and the Mechs most likely to carry the company should we ever be lured into a trap, be dropped too close or far, and face unexpected threats before the dropship can pick us up.
The "Fast Stats" weapon info for both Catapult variants is incorrect.
yep! I have a little note on it in the description
The cataphact can mount the same ecm systems as the raven. You claim it has no utility? The variant is ctf-0x.
It ends up being one of the best mechs in the 2018 turn based game for its stealth mechanic being on a heavy hitting mech.
On the tabletop the cataphract can disable active probes, artIV, narc, and c3.
In both game setting the cataphract has serious utility value.
It's probably pretty good! But lore wise it's quite rare in 3025. Considering it's rarity I think it's was okay for me to not consider.
"A single shipment of CTF-0X prototypes was sent to Sian but line production did not commence afterwards because a request for more EW components was denied." Experimental Technical Readout: Succession Wars, Volume 1, p. 6
That being said on further review I do think the original variant is a bit underrated on the defense side. The 11% explosion chance is probably acceptable.
Hope that clears things up!
Ah the lancelot. A mech that if swapping out the PPC and the medium laser for a pair of LRM-5s and a ton of Ammo plus a heatsink and 2 tons of armor would have one heck of a solid variant.
We can get it done if you want to Commander!
I know you can't do every variant of every mech on here, but I honestly feel the Cataphract 1X is a significantly better mech for the time period than the 2X. The PPC for range, only ammunition is the 1 ton of autocannon ammo and 4 medium lasers split between the front and the back.
But again, there are three entire experimental variants of the Cataphract, and the mainline model was produced by the Federated Suns, so I can't really complain about how you pick them.
That being said, I might not be able to call of the assassin's this time. Calling the Cataphract an F just 3 short years before we lose it to the FedSuns hurts. It hurts deep.
Just realized the 1X is listed later on in the video as a C+.
Assassin's will be withdrawn, have a good day.
Rules question. If a mech is on elevation 0, has partial cover from a lvl 1 hill and is being shot at by a mech 5 hexs away on a lvl 3 hill. Does the mech behind the hill still get the +1 partial? Even bigger do any hits at the mech that go to legs still count as hitting the hill?
No. An attacker on a higher elevation negates partial cover.
@@geoffwatson5689 what about the leg protection?
@@monkeyfoo999 That is negated too.
@@geoffwatson5689 ah, thank you for the clarification.