Consumption-based taxation is also a good choice for high-pop nations before they research good government administration technologies - they often don't have the taxation capacity required to extract taxes, and the money wasted is simply destroyed and removed from the economy as a whole. Also, the only consequences of having insufficient administration is that you can't increase institutions past level 1 and can't raise taxes. Anyhow, the point is that for like specifically East India Company, Qing, and the like, it's completely valid to destroy all your government admin before the first unpause, set taxes to low, and enact consumption taxes ASAP. This frees up a ton of money to slosh around productively in your economy rather than evaporating uselessly as tax waste. As a side effect, you starve a lot fewer of your peasants to death early on, and you wind up with significantly higher population later on in the game.
I just tried this and the lack of admin makes it so you can't implement any consumption taxes. Did I misunderstand what you wrote? Edit: oh, do you add the taxes and then delete admins and switch the law? Edit again: actually, this doesn't work either. Your consumption taxes will bring in no income at all if you delete your admins.
@@kusotarre Consumption taxes use authority, not bureaucracy, to implement. Are you saying the lack of admin capacity is also reducing the income from commodity consumption taxes just like normal taxes? I haven't played in ages, so I can't remember if that was a thing
@@TheFree33333 Yeah, it's zero if you kill your admin buildings. I just made a Qing game, set up all the consumption taxes (plenty of authority), kill the admin centers, and all the income from the consumption taxes goes to 0. Still takes all your authority, but you get no income from it. Changing to consumption tax law doesnt change it.
@@TheFree33333 he's talking about no tax capacity, which is the other output of admins on top of bureaucracy - I think the strategy @tyler proposes is interesting, and one I hadn't considered, but I don't think you delete the gov admins.
@@kusotarre You don't implement any consumption taxes, just run your government off of minting and government-run railways. You pick consumption tax law so that you don't have tax waste on the zero taxes you collect.
Higher Taxes early on also have the slight benefit of decreasing your pops wood and fabric early on, making your construction centers a tiny bit cheaper. Although for wood that may not be as good of a thing conpared to fabric because it is most likely your first, most common Capitalist owned building. And you definitely want to go from wooden to iron frame buildings quite early on, which also decreases the percentage you spend on wood. Unless you are a high tech starting nation I guess.
Consumption taxes early game: wow that’s a lot of money per authority! Consumption taxes mid game: these will tax the wealthier pops more so the SoL of my lower class can keep rising. Consumption taxes late game: if I tax oil maybe they’ll stop using my most important and scarce resource to heat their homes… and maybe they’ll stop building art academies for 5 damn minutes.
A bit of a side note, but one cool thing about pub traded on manufactories is that you split the money between more capitalists, which improves their consumption profile away from art
Pop Oil consumption or heating consumption in general is so tiny I doubt taxing Oil has any significant effect. Lategame you'll maybe reduce a 3% share of buy orders from pops to 2.7% or something like that. Plus pop consumption is actually rather terrible at choosing the cheaper good (of a similar weight). Earlygame whaling vs other heating goods and lategame furniture vs glass for household items are very much imbalanced. Edit: I don't know if the pops even take consumption taxes into account when choosing needs, because I (and a lot of other people) have not been able to figure out how exactly pops choose their needs within a category. Or if Paradox intended it to be as it currently is, or didn't intend it and ALSO doesn't know how to fix it.
As someone who tries to nudge government wages & military wages, I was running into issues where I'd get prestige fluctuations which would alter my power ranking which would cut my declared interests, and inadvertently automatically pull my interest out of regions I was colonizing. I'd scroll over to Africa and see my colonizers paused and I wouldn't even realize how long I'd been stuck with no interest. I wish there were some alert for that, but it's really starting to burn me on tax tweaking.
Yeah, I don't think it's worth my time to play like that, but objectively speaking it's probably best. I think I might do more lowering of gov wages when I decrease taxes though as a play pattern. Pretty excited to try this out.
Declared Interests disappearing in Colonies can even happen without loss of max declared interests I think. At least in 1.2 I saw this happen. If you have a native uprising, your state is for a short amount of time turned into a non-colonial state that is able to generate its own active interest, so your declared interest gets removed. Once you beat them the state is however turned into a non colonial state that can't generate its own interest anymore so you lose that interest. And the game doesn't even remind you about that in most cases! So after beating uprisings I always check my declared interests.
Maybe it’s just me but I quite like running slightly higher government wages as it helps stimulate the economy quite a bit. It’s also politically good as it adds wealth to clerks, bureaucrats, and academics who are more commonly intelligentsia
Basically taxes act as gas and brakes on a car. Low taxes are basically to gas GDP and improve overall turnaround if buildings, basically improving the demand side. Whereas high taxes are are the brakes on GDP growth, but allows for building production and education growth via Universities. Was wondering when i was playing as Yemen, i had really good growth on high taxes, had 6-7 Uni's, but i was getting upwards if 70K unemployed, and i had 180K of peasants still. I was wondering what the heck was going on? Likely due to lack of demand my factories weren't producing / employing pops as fast as my buildings were going up and my tech was advancing for green toggles / efficiency toggles.
People should use Vic3 to talk about modern tax laws in play now, and why we’d want to keep them or move away from them. I think it’d be a framework the average citizen can get behind to understand where they lie in life.
Is it worth it cranking up taxation even when starting with country with particularly bad starting laws like Brazil? Because I really want to abolish slavery, pass colonization laws, pass education and conscription laws as soon as possible and cranking up taxation early considerably delay my ability to change that laws and deal with the landowners massive influence early on
I'm suuuuuuuuuper late in commenting, but I thought this was an interesting question. I think it's still worth cranking up taxes early, because being able to build more and more early industrial buildings (lumber, iron, coal, tools) is the most predictable way to reduce the clout of the landowners. It might slightly delay getting rid of the absolute worst laws, but you'll be able to sustain that momentum of change towards the actually good laws much better, while also growing your GDP, budget, and SoL faster. It's essentially accepting some early game pain for enormous mid-to-late game gains.
Could you tell us your PC specs? been wondering if it is worth it to get a new PC to run victoria 3 better or if it will run like shit in the end game anyways.
I have like a pretty old 2gig GPU and a 5600x Radeon CPU or something? Somewhat middling I think. From what I understand CPU is most important, but hardware is really not my area of expertise
I upgraded mine from a 2013 fx amd to a 7950x or whatever the new amd flagship is/was and now all lag is gone and I can play at any speed on multi-player with latency, sync issues, and lag.
Isnt it funny how you can make a commandeconomy law but you, since the start of the game, actually play a commandeconomy... U can decide what buildings to build, u can "plan" the economy out right down to each produced product...
While I think a game where you don't control what is built would be interesting, I think it wouldn't sell very well as the levers by which you control the economy become more opaque
Consumption-based taxation is also a good choice for high-pop nations before they research good government administration technologies - they often don't have the taxation capacity required to extract taxes, and the money wasted is simply destroyed and removed from the economy as a whole. Also, the only consequences of having insufficient administration is that you can't increase institutions past level 1 and can't raise taxes.
Anyhow, the point is that for like specifically East India Company, Qing, and the like, it's completely valid to destroy all your government admin before the first unpause, set taxes to low, and enact consumption taxes ASAP. This frees up a ton of money to slosh around productively in your economy rather than evaporating uselessly as tax waste. As a side effect, you starve a lot fewer of your peasants to death early on, and you wind up with significantly higher population later on in the game.
I just tried this and the lack of admin makes it so you can't implement any consumption taxes. Did I misunderstand what you wrote?
Edit: oh, do you add the taxes and then delete admins and switch the law?
Edit again: actually, this doesn't work either. Your consumption taxes will bring in no income at all if you delete your admins.
@@kusotarre Consumption taxes use authority, not bureaucracy, to implement. Are you saying the lack of admin capacity is also reducing the income from commodity consumption taxes just like normal taxes? I haven't played in ages, so I can't remember if that was a thing
@@TheFree33333 Yeah, it's zero if you kill your admin buildings.
I just made a Qing game, set up all the consumption taxes (plenty of authority), kill the admin centers, and all the income from the consumption taxes goes to 0. Still takes all your authority, but you get no income from it. Changing to consumption tax law doesnt change it.
@@TheFree33333 he's talking about no tax capacity, which is the other output of admins on top of bureaucracy - I think the strategy @tyler proposes is interesting, and one I hadn't considered, but I don't think you delete the gov admins.
@@kusotarre You don't implement any consumption taxes, just run your government off of minting and government-run railways. You pick consumption tax law so that you don't have tax waste on the zero taxes you collect.
off topic but omg those borders are the stuff of nightmares
True France borders
@brandon this is the way
Your thumbnails are infinitely better. Keep up!
Thank you! Really spending a lot more time trying to fix that type of stuff up
Higher Taxes early on also have the slight benefit of decreasing your pops wood and fabric early on, making your construction centers a tiny bit cheaper.
Although for wood that may not be as good of a thing conpared to fabric because it is most likely your first, most common Capitalist owned building.
And you definitely want to go from wooden to iron frame buildings quite early on, which also decreases the percentage you spend on wood.
Unless you are a high tech starting nation I guess.
It's interesting, but a pretty small effect I think - they don't consume too much of these goods in terms of proportion of buy orders
Consumption taxes early game: wow that’s a lot of money per authority!
Consumption taxes mid game: these will tax the wealthier pops more so the SoL of my lower class can keep rising.
Consumption taxes late game: if I tax oil maybe they’ll stop using my most important and scarce resource to heat their homes… and maybe they’ll stop building art academies for 5 damn minutes.
A bit of a side note, but one cool thing about pub traded on manufactories is that you split the money between more capitalists, which improves their consumption profile away from art
Pop Oil consumption or heating consumption in general is so tiny I doubt taxing Oil has any significant effect.
Lategame you'll maybe reduce a 3% share of buy orders from pops to 2.7% or something like that.
Plus pop consumption is actually rather terrible at choosing the cheaper good (of a similar weight).
Earlygame whaling vs other heating goods and lategame furniture vs glass for household items are very much imbalanced.
Edit: I don't know if the pops even take consumption taxes into account when choosing needs, because I (and a lot of other people) have not been able to figure out how exactly pops choose their needs within a category.
Or if Paradox intended it to be as it currently is, or didn't intend it and ALSO doesn't know how to fix it.
Top Tier quality video
Thank you! I probably put more effort into this tutorial than any other, and was a little disappointed that it didn't do as well
Thank you sir!
You are welcome!
My government looking at this: "If I do this but on the contrary?"
As someone who tries to nudge government wages & military wages, I was running into issues where I'd get prestige fluctuations which would alter my power ranking which would cut my declared interests, and inadvertently automatically pull my interest out of regions I was colonizing. I'd scroll over to Africa and see my colonizers paused and I wouldn't even realize how long I'd been stuck with no interest. I wish there were some alert for that, but it's really starting to burn me on tax tweaking.
Yeah, I don't think it's worth my time to play like that, but objectively speaking it's probably best. I think I might do more lowering of gov wages when I decrease taxes though as a play pattern. Pretty excited to try this out.
Declared Interests disappearing in Colonies can even happen without loss of max declared interests I think. At least in 1.2 I saw this happen.
If you have a native uprising, your state is for a short amount of time turned into a non-colonial state that is able to generate its own active interest, so your declared interest gets removed.
Once you beat them the state is however turned into a non colonial state that can't generate its own interest anymore so you lose that interest.
And the game doesn't even remind you about that in most cases!
So after beating uprisings I always check my declared interests.
Maybe it’s just me but I quite like running slightly higher government wages as it helps stimulate the economy quite a bit. It’s also politically good as it adds wealth to clerks, bureaucrats, and academics who are more commonly intelligentsia
Basically taxes act as gas and brakes on a car. Low taxes are basically to gas GDP and improve overall turnaround if buildings, basically improving the demand side. Whereas high taxes are are the brakes on GDP growth, but allows for building production and education growth via Universities.
Was wondering when i was playing as Yemen, i had really good growth on high taxes, had 6-7 Uni's, but i was getting upwards if 70K unemployed, and i had 180K of peasants still. I was wondering what the heck was going on? Likely due to lack of demand my factories weren't producing / employing pops as fast as my buildings were going up and my tech was advancing for green toggles / efficiency toggles.
gonna watch this one later for sure
why do we hate the arts?
People should use Vic3 to talk about modern tax laws in play now, and why we’d want to keep them or move away from them. I think it’d be a framework the average citizen can get behind to understand where they lie in life.
Is it worth it cranking up taxation even when starting with country with particularly bad starting laws like Brazil? Because I really want to abolish slavery, pass colonization laws, pass education and conscription laws as soon as possible and cranking up taxation early considerably delay my ability to change that laws and deal with the landowners massive influence early on
I'm suuuuuuuuuper late in commenting, but I thought this was an interesting question. I think it's still worth cranking up taxes early, because being able to build more and more early industrial buildings (lumber, iron, coal, tools) is the most predictable way to reduce the clout of the landowners. It might slightly delay getting rid of the absolute worst laws, but you'll be able to sustain that momentum of change towards the actually good laws much better, while also growing your GDP, budget, and SoL faster. It's essentially accepting some early game pain for enormous mid-to-late game gains.
thankfully i only need to strap "in"
Could you tell us your PC specs? been wondering if it is worth it to get a new PC to run victoria 3 better or if it will run like shit in the end game anyways.
I have like a pretty old 2gig GPU and a 5600x Radeon CPU or something? Somewhat middling I think. From what I understand CPU is most important, but hardware is really not my area of expertise
I upgraded mine from a 2013 fx amd to a 7950x or whatever the new amd flagship is/was and now all lag is gone and I can play at any speed on multi-player with latency, sync issues, and lag.
@@holliday. so I will probably update my current setup, thanks for the reply guys.
Isnt it funny how you can make a commandeconomy law but you, since the start of the game, actually play a commandeconomy...
U can decide what buildings to build, u can "plan" the economy out right down to each produced product...
While I think a game where you don't control what is built would be interesting, I think it wouldn't sell very well as the levers by which you control the economy become more opaque
I just max tax and create a giant construction and iron economy where i build so many factories everything is dirt cheap
Construction go brrrrrrrrr
Nobody talks about taxes from a state reading zero