His dances are good for teaching because they're playable and a lot of them are in keys in which beginners don't often have pieces written for them. Helps them get over their fear of key signatures.
4 ปีที่แล้ว +8
I love Laurens' touch, it's absolute gold!
4 ปีที่แล้ว +13
Great tempo, it is certainly possible to dance to this.
Again, I just want to say that this is the most gorgeous pianoforte I've ever heard. Love these pieces by Schubert, and Laurens playing is wonderful, although Schubert's music always makes me sad or at least melancholic, especially on a Sunday evening.
Saw a comment further down about this not being a good tempo because Strauss has different tempo to this in the Rosenkavalier, and they were apparently meant to replicate the true Viennese Waltz. Since I don't expect a reply from that guy as he's probably just a one comment troll type from 2 years ago, I decided to look up some recordings of the Rosenkavalier Waltzes from the suites found on TH-cam. Listening to them with the metronome on my phone, I've found tempo for the crochet ranges anywhere between as low as 122 and up to 180 at the top end, with the most typical speed being in the region of 155 to 165. The speeds played here in this video (fantastically well btw, to the point where I may actually bother to learn these myself) are between about 126 and 164 (depending on the exact waltz being played) which perfectly lines up with modern interpretations of the waltzes for Der Rosenkavalier. Czerny's metronome mark of dotted half note = 88 would translate to 264 crochets per minute in single beat and 132 for the WBMP. So a typical performance of a waltz in Der Rosenkavalier being around 160 would mean it's only 21.2% quicker than Czerny's double beat tempo (perfectly within the realms of feasibility given gradual increase in tempo over 1 to 2 hundred years) and it's 65% shy of the single beat speed that would be the "norm"/"true waltz tempo" if it were true. Clearly a ridiculous argument to propose in order to suggest the tempo in this video are wrong/single beat it right, given that it's more indicative of your position than it is of the other side. I honestly don't understand how single beat proponents don't even do the most basic fact checking for possible counterfactuals.
Index: 0:00 # 1 in E major 1:19 # 2 in B major 2:01 # 3 in A minor 3:18 # 4 in C sharp minor 3:54 # 5 in E minor 4:34 # 6 in B minor 5:49 # 7 in E flat major 6:46 # 8 in G flat major 7:28 # 9 in F sharp minor 8:30 # 10 in B minor (with moderator pedal) 9:21 # 11 in B major 10:20 # 12 in E major
There is a natural bond between you and Schubert (or should I've said: supernatural? :) ). I've sensed it already from your interpretation to his 6 moments D780. This upload is superb - great performance ! Thanks for uploading.
That is such a gorgeous instrument! How I envy you. I could almost say that I’d trade an arm and a leg for it, but that would make it pointless in the end.
I do not understand the tempo controversy. These are not too slow, but comfortable performance speeds. One does not need any "period sources" to figure this out. Playing a Schubert waltz musically is not rocket science and does not require a Ph.D. in Advanced Historical Tempo Research and does not require encyclopedic knowledge of Czerny's quotes.
These are wonderful. Has anyone else noticed that over the past decade(s) most dances (not only the Waltz, but the Polonez and Gigue, too---even the Sarabande and Chaconne!) have sped-up to the point of being un-dance-able?
I agree .. they are wonderful and really well played :-) Just out of curiosity, have you heard these waltzes played much faster than Mr. de Man's renditions ? Just asking because most recordings I have come across of these Schubert waltzes (on TH-cam) are in this same general ballpark with respect to tempo ... which makes perfect sense for waltzes meant to be danced to.
@@pjbpiano Is not the title of the piece an important clue to interpretation? A dance form of any type evokes a tempo, along with a rhythm, and a feeling about the whole thing that often cannot be captured in notes and performance indications alone. What other better criteria are there to judge a tempo in such a case?
@@mikesmovingimages, the title of a piece doesn't imply that you should be able to dance to it. There are dance pieces that are composed purely to be listened to. To right the appropriate tempo will depend on several more factors than simply assuming they are meant to be danced to. A waltz marked "In waltz time" will be regarded very differently than a waltz marked "Presto". One is meant to be danced to and the other is meant to just be listened to.
Absolutely wonderful, excellent performance (but ugly socks :-) As Henry Gaida points out in a comment below, many pieces related to real life dances are probably being played way too fast. This made me wonder what a realistic metronome number would be for Chopin's A-flat major polonaise. My G.Henle urtext has no metronome marking for this polonaise, but some of the other's have quarternote =80, 84, or 92. Any suggestions? I assume that Chopin used the title polonaise because the character should be directly related to the dance. I also assume, being ignorant in this field of musicology, that the galliard, allemande and pavane from the renaissance also were played in danceable tempi, or?
@ThePultzFamily Nah! Chopin used Polonaise for his "Piece in Ab major Somewhat Resembling a Polonaise" because he didn't know he was actually writing music for the inaugural Paris to Warsaw race rally! :-) Everything he wrote is to be played as fast as possible, so that great technical facility and virtuosity can be displayed. If he were a film director he would make movies called Love Story full of car chases and explosions. Can't judge by the title! But seriously, the whole idea that Schubert wrote a waltz, perhaps more sophisticated than the average dance hall band would pay at the weekly ball, but a waltz nonetheless, and not expect it to sound like a waltz, to have the characteristics of a waltz - including tempo - is absurd. Otherwise he, and other composers, would not have written a waltz, but something else, and given it a different title. The simplest solution is usually a great to place to start.
Love it ! Beautifully played with great sensitivity, danceable tempos and on a great sounding piano ! Bravo :-) I must add these lovely pieces to my repertoire !! I found this statement interesting in the description : " Tempo choice based on the Viennese Police Clock and Czerny’s Pianoforte-Schule op. 500 (in WBMP). ". Would someone please be so kind as to explain or elaborate on how the tempo choice for these waltzes was derived from these seemingly unrelated (as far as I can see) sources ? Are there contemporary MM marks extant for these waltzes to which WBMP was applied or was there some sort of logical extrapolation applied from the clock and Czerny ? The tempi are great to my ears (and feet) ... just wondering how Mr. de Man determined them in relation to WBMP practice :-)
I enjoy this performance, but it's a bit fast isn't it? It's at least a bit faster than dotted half = 100 or so (WB), and wasn't the usual tempo prescribed to be around 88?
As source you give Czerny's Fortepiano School. On Page 49 of Part 3 it says, that a typical Waltz is played at dotted half = 88, which is double the tempo you play in this video. Czerny further explains "folglich dauert ein ganzer Takt nur einen Schlag des Metronoms" (therefore, a whole bar lasts only one beat of the metronome), and three paragraphs above, Czerny specifys, that he is referring to the "hörbare Schläge" (audible beats) of the metronome. How do you square this with the tempo you recorded?
Thanks Mario. Lovely sounding piano and most suitable for this music. Yes, Potvileghe is a very good and reputable builder of fortepianos and clavichords.
I see many comments about how a slower tempo is a necessity for “fat and rich nobility to be able to dance to it.” Richard Strauss as most of us know was born in 1860. In the 1880s along with Brahms and Mahler saw Johann Strauss II conduct his waltzes and orchestra no doubt numerous times. When composing the waltzes for Der Rosenkavalier Strauss said “how could I forget the laughing genius of Vienna?” Strauss then recorded himself conducting Der Rosenkavalier suite. The tempi he chooses for these waltzes, meant to encapsulate THE NON PLUS ULTRA of Viennese waltz composers, then are an accurate portrayal of historical waltz tempi, that were used for dancing and performance. These tempi are not in line with Wim’s theory.
what makes you think Strauss had the intention of playing in the Waltz tempo of a century earlier? It is documented the Waltz end 19th c was much faster than first half of 19th c. So much faster than the 244quartee notes Czerny supposedly had in mind...?
AuthenticSound Strauss did not have in mind the tempo a century earlier, he had in mind the tempo of his youth. What I would like to know is when and how this increase in tempo occurred. Johann Strauss II inherited the waltz tradition from his father, and popularized the waltz from the middle of the 19th century forward. There is no documentation of Strauss II, any of his brothers, nor any concert goers claiming that Strauss II was playing waltzes faster than his father did. Where is this evidence that the speed of the waltz was so drastically different? Because you play Liszt pieces from the same era, yet claim that they are still using your theory of db, and if music changed at different rates over to single beat from composer to composer, then why is there no written evidence of it either from the public or the composers themselves? I am genuinely asking these questions, in the hope of a sincere discussion.
Finally! Waltzes played like actual waltzes!
His dances are good for teaching because they're playable and a lot of them are in keys in which beginners don't often have pieces written for them. Helps them get over their fear of key signatures.
I love Laurens' touch, it's absolute gold!
Great tempo, it is certainly possible to dance to this.
Delightful. Tempi are just right.
Again, I just want to say that this is the most gorgeous pianoforte I've ever heard. Love these pieces by Schubert, and Laurens playing is wonderful, although Schubert's music always makes me sad or at least melancholic, especially on a Sunday evening.
Saw a comment further down about this not being a good tempo because Strauss has different tempo to this in the Rosenkavalier, and they were apparently meant to replicate the true Viennese Waltz.
Since I don't expect a reply from that guy as he's probably just a one comment troll type from 2 years ago, I decided to look up some recordings of the Rosenkavalier Waltzes from the suites found on TH-cam. Listening to them with the metronome on my phone, I've found tempo for the crochet ranges anywhere between as low as 122 and up to 180 at the top end, with the most typical speed being in the region of 155 to 165.
The speeds played here in this video (fantastically well btw, to the point where I may actually bother to learn these myself) are between about 126 and 164 (depending on the exact waltz being played) which perfectly lines up with modern interpretations of the waltzes for Der Rosenkavalier.
Czerny's metronome mark of dotted half note = 88 would translate to 264 crochets per minute in single beat and 132 for the WBMP. So a typical performance of a waltz in Der Rosenkavalier being around 160 would mean it's only 21.2% quicker than Czerny's double beat tempo (perfectly within the realms of feasibility given gradual increase in tempo over 1 to 2 hundred years) and it's 65% shy of the single beat speed that would be the "norm"/"true waltz tempo" if it were true.
Clearly a ridiculous argument to propose in order to suggest the tempo in this video are wrong/single beat it right, given that it's more indicative of your position than it is of the other side.
I honestly don't understand how single beat proponents don't even do the most basic fact checking for possible counterfactuals.
Index:
0:00 # 1 in E major
1:19 # 2 in B major
2:01 # 3 in A minor
3:18 # 4 in C sharp minor
3:54 # 5 in E minor
4:34 # 6 in B minor
5:49 # 7 in E flat major
6:46 # 8 in G flat major
7:28 # 9 in F sharp minor
8:30 # 10 in B minor (with moderator pedal)
9:21 # 11 in B major
10:20 # 12 in E major
Thank you Laurens .... delightfully done!
A very good-looking man playing exquisitely. What a treat.
Franz Schubert!
Love his Waltzes. (This and Valse Sentimentale)
Beautiful and elegant playing. Bravo, Laurens!
There is a natural bond between you and Schubert (or should I've said: supernatural? :) ). I've sensed it already from your interpretation to his 6 moments D780. This upload is superb - great performance ! Thanks for uploading.
BEAUTIFUL
Looking forward to hearing Laurens on the Fritz!
Absolutely wonderful, thank you!
That is such a gorgeous instrument! How I envy you. I could almost say that I’d trade an arm and a leg for it, but that would make it pointless in the end.
Now THAT would be a great O'Henry story. Trades arm and leg for piano. Partner trades piano for a ring and shoes. Nice! ❤️
What a joy! Than you for posting this! Very good editing, too! Perfect video! 🌻🌻🌻
I do not understand the tempo controversy. These are not too slow, but comfortable performance speeds. One does not need any "period sources" to figure this out. Playing a Schubert waltz musically is not rocket science and does not require a Ph.D. in Advanced Historical Tempo Research and does not require encyclopedic knowledge of Czerny's quotes.
Well played
beautiful music
Very natural, I like it.
Beautiful!! Thank you!!!
These are wonderful. Has anyone else noticed that over the past decade(s) most dances (not only the Waltz, but the Polonez and Gigue, too---even the Sarabande and Chaconne!) have sped-up to the point of being un-dance-able?
Yes it's awful, we can't even enjoy the works because they're even to fast to hear all the details.
I agree .. they are wonderful and really well played :-) Just out of curiosity, have you heard these waltzes played much faster than Mr. de Man's renditions ? Just asking because most recordings I have come across of these Schubert waltzes (on TH-cam) are in this same general ballpark with respect to tempo ... which makes perfect sense for waltzes meant to be danced to.
Not all these pieces are meant to be danced to though. That's not a good way to judge the tempos.
@@pjbpiano Is not the title of the piece an important clue to interpretation? A dance form of any type evokes a tempo, along with a rhythm, and a feeling about the whole thing that often cannot be captured in notes and performance indications alone. What other better criteria are there to judge a tempo in such a case?
@@mikesmovingimages, the title of a piece doesn't imply that you should be able to dance to it. There are dance pieces that are composed purely to be listened to. To right the appropriate tempo will depend on several more factors than simply assuming they are meant to be danced to. A waltz marked "In waltz time" will be regarded very differently than a waltz marked "Presto". One is meant to be danced to and the other is meant to just be listened to.
I was actually thinking today "when's Wim going to upload De Man's recording of the Schubert walzes"
lovely!
Dear Wim
Please!
Can you play the next time please
I miss you on the Fritz Pianoforte
PS.: Good Work
👍👍
Love 6:47
Absolutely wonderful, excellent performance (but ugly socks :-)
As Henry Gaida points out in a comment below, many pieces related to real life dances are probably being played way too fast. This made me wonder what a realistic metronome number would be for Chopin's A-flat major polonaise. My G.Henle urtext has no metronome marking for this polonaise, but some of the other's have quarternote =80, 84, or 92. Any suggestions? I assume that Chopin used the title polonaise because the character should be directly related to the dance. I also assume, being ignorant in this field of musicology, that the galliard, allemande and pavane from the renaissance also were played in danceable tempi, or?
@ThePultzFamily Nah! Chopin used Polonaise for his "Piece in Ab major Somewhat Resembling a Polonaise" because he didn't know he was actually writing music for the inaugural Paris to Warsaw race rally! :-) Everything he wrote is to be played as fast as possible, so that great technical facility and virtuosity can be displayed. If he were a film director he would make movies called Love Story full of car chases and explosions. Can't judge by the title!
But seriously, the whole idea that Schubert wrote a waltz, perhaps more sophisticated than the average dance hall band would pay at the weekly ball, but a waltz nonetheless, and not expect it to sound like a waltz, to have the characteristics of a waltz - including tempo - is absurd. Otherwise he, and other composers, would not have written a waltz, but something else, and given it a different title. The simplest solution is usually a great to place to start.
Love it ! Beautifully played with great sensitivity, danceable tempos and on a great sounding piano ! Bravo :-) I must add these lovely pieces to my repertoire !! I found this statement interesting in the description : " Tempo choice based on the Viennese Police Clock and Czerny’s Pianoforte-Schule op. 500 (in WBMP). ". Would someone please be so kind as to explain or elaborate on how the tempo choice for these waltzes was derived from these seemingly unrelated (as far as I can see) sources ? Are there contemporary MM marks extant for these waltzes to which WBMP was applied or was there some sort of logical extrapolation applied from the clock and Czerny ? The tempi are great to my ears (and feet) ... just wondering how Mr. de Man determined them in relation to WBMP practice :-)
@@JérémyPresle Thanks :-)
I enjoy this performance, but it's a bit fast isn't it?
It's at least a bit faster than dotted half = 100 or so (WB), and wasn't the usual tempo prescribed to be around 88?
As source you give Czerny's Fortepiano School. On Page 49 of Part 3 it says, that a typical Waltz is played at dotted half = 88, which is double the tempo you play in this video. Czerny further explains "folglich dauert ein ganzer Takt nur einen Schlag des Metronoms" (therefore, a whole bar lasts only one beat of the metronome), and three paragraphs above, Czerny specifys, that he is referring to the "hörbare Schläge" (audible beats) of the metronome. How do you square this with the tempo you recorded?
Great Lawrence! Looking forward to it! 👍
Which make of a fortepiano is this?
Joris Potvlieghe 2019, after Johann Fritz 1816.
Thanks Mario. Lovely sounding piano and most suitable for this music. Yes, Potvileghe is a very good and reputable builder of fortepianos and clavichords.
I see many comments about how a slower tempo is a necessity for “fat and rich nobility to be able to dance to it.” Richard Strauss as most of us know was born in 1860. In the 1880s along with Brahms and Mahler saw Johann Strauss II conduct his waltzes and orchestra no doubt numerous times. When composing the waltzes for Der Rosenkavalier Strauss said “how could I forget the laughing genius of Vienna?” Strauss then recorded himself conducting Der Rosenkavalier suite. The tempi he chooses for these waltzes, meant to encapsulate THE NON PLUS ULTRA of Viennese waltz composers, then are an accurate portrayal of historical waltz tempi, that were used for dancing and performance. These tempi are not in line with Wim’s theory.
what makes you think Strauss had the intention of playing in the Waltz tempo of a century earlier? It is documented the Waltz end 19th c was much faster than first half of 19th c. So much faster than the 244quartee notes Czerny supposedly had in mind...?
AuthenticSound Strauss did not have in mind the tempo a century earlier, he had in mind the tempo of his youth. What I would like to know is when and how this increase in tempo occurred. Johann Strauss II inherited the waltz tradition from his father, and popularized the waltz from the middle of the 19th century forward. There is no documentation of Strauss II, any of his brothers, nor any concert goers claiming that Strauss II was playing waltzes faster than his father did. Where is this evidence that the speed of the waltz was so drastically different? Because you play Liszt pieces from the same era, yet claim that they are still using your theory of db, and if music changed at different rates over to single beat from composer to composer, then why is there no written evidence of it either from the public or the composers themselves? I am genuinely asking these questions, in the hope of a sincere discussion.
AuthenticSound I really would appreciate an answer to my poses questions to your response.
@@gabevalle2659 What tempi do you actually propose that these waltzes should be in?