SUPERB! A personable, intelligent, clear and professionally impeccable presentation, thank you sir! You could lecture on the topic and would shine amongst academics, as well as on-the-ground professional engineers! 10/10!
I guess im randomly asking but does someone know a method to log back into an instagram account?? I was stupid forgot the account password. I love any tips you can give me.
@Eduardo Payton i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and im in the hacking process atm. Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
You really should either take down this video or put a disclaimer that the information on Shading is incorrect. The whole String Inverter discussion about shading having an impact has been busted by several people and companies using a Scientific approach. You make excellent video's but you are doing your customers a disservice by regurgitating false information without doing any research. Joe if you wanna know the Truth look at this video or search for some others, the proof is all over the place. th-cam.com/video/UQ9Szhl1ceQ/w-d-xo.html
The reason I went micro inverter... expandability. I deployed in 2 phases, rather than buying another large inverter, I can increase my production a little at a time by adding more microinverters.
Yes. another good point. The micro-inverter architecture is more easily expandable. I would also say that it is more economical for smaller systems by avoiding the large cost of a central inverter. I think SolarEdge offers 3,800W as the smallest option. For a small DIY, you might want to start out with only 1-1.5kW. That's much easier to do with micro-inverters without spending an arm and a leg.
@@SolarSurge thanks Matt and Joe, this is one of my primary questions about solar. We live in the Sierra Nevada in California. Our electricity costs twice the national average, power company powerlines start many fires each year, and we are increasingly plagued by power outages. I'm out of my home today because the power has been out for a week because of fires.
As an electrical engineer I consider this an excellent explanation. For fellow techies, the "optimizer" is basically a DC to DC converter. And I can attest to the reliability problems with SE optimizers. The ones on my new home haven't worked for 3 months and counting. 0 watts delivered.
@@ts757arse Not so they match, but are the highest total string voltage. This improves the inverters conversion efficiency. See this white paper Figure 3: www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se_application_fixed_string_voltage.pdf In the optimizer, a DC-DC converter, there is no conversion to AC. That's done at the inverter. Nothing the user need worry about.
@@ts757arse in DC systems harmonics and phase angle cut-off do not exist. That happens in AC sytems when frequencies are present. Modern DC/AC inverters can modulate sine waves in a near perfect way, it is the load wich switches the AC current and cause higher harmonics.
This guy is most excellent. He explains technical things in an orderly easy to understand way. That takes some special smarts. He should be running the energy department!
Mark my words, micro inverters won't last 25 years and those systems will have more frequent breakdowns, simply because there are more Points of failure
Micro inverters bad points you missed: 1. Less efficient (2% at least) 2. it needs thicker cables then 2.5mm2 AC, if not done loss is even more, while DC standard is 4mm2 3. output AC power is limited i.e. 290watts, there goes your 365wattpeak LG panel or so 4. complex to install in fusebox room, it needs more breakers on a three phase network 5. more points of failure instead of centralized (optimizers are built more simple) and they don't like heat. 6. When using a DC storage battery, you loose more power going from DC to AC then DC back to AC, with SolarEdge it's DC to DC
And don’t forget that with the Micro Inverters you have grid level voltage at all times from the fuse box all the way through the rooftop array to the last panel. The optimiser system only has the DC voltage on the roof but when it is not under load it reduces down to 1 Volt per optimiser which is so much more safer.
Yes the failure rate on central inverts is a lot lower, however the optimisers have about a 90% reliability and also suffer from heat like pannel level inverters . What no one is talking about though is mow we are seeing >500w pannels appear now it won’t be long before 72 full cell models appear for residential builds , enphase development team really have dropped the ball even with the iq8 design is limited on top models to 400w that may have been fine pre covid but time waits for no one as >500w panbels have been the goal for many home owners who have significant smaller panel’s in an area often limited to 16 even with real world losses it’s still far higher than enphase allow forcing owners it to old style strings
@@TheArtificiallyIntelligent there are 72 full cell _144 half cell models from jinkco solar and ja solar 540w. 570w on the market but supplies are very limited my contacts in india only got one shipment that's being used for water heaters in combination with water pumps in rural areas
Point 5 is ridiculous. With a power optimizer, if the central inverter fails then the entire thing fails all at once. With micro inverters, even if one fails, that doesn't mean all of them will fail at once.
Great presentation you rock. My opinion on the Solar Edge is that I have had only 1 SolarEdge inverter fail, but many optimizers. The Enphase has not be that perfect and I have had many fail. Keep up the good work Best.
As a ham radio operator, Optimizers are also know to be RF noisy. So it you or your neighbor listen to AM radio or ham radio, Solar Edge could prevent that from working.
@Lee Stanley - microinverters directly connect to the AC grid and hence have to comply to EMC standards in order to be legal to be sold. With DC optimizers and a string inverter there is a legal grey area. The inverter must meet EMC standards as it connects to the AC grid, however it is OK to test it without any of the DC optimizers connected or if they are connected it is OK to conduct the test with the optimizers set in their inactive 'bypass' mode. Since the DC optimizers do not directly connect to the AC grid then they don't need to comply with any of the EMC standards. This is part of the reason why optimizers are lower cost as they can be built without any form of EMC filter.
@Michael Harrisson will this also affect cellphones and two-way radios? We're planning to expand the number of panels but would not want our weak cellphone and two-way radio performance to get worse.
@@paulburger2866 technically speaking the noise generated by optimizers can interfere with all forms of radio transmissions, however ham radio is a lot more susceptible than other forms of radio. Cellphones use digital modulation schemes which are really immune to background noise and deal well with most sources of noise. They can also adjust their transmission power to help get through background noise when they detect it. If your site is a long way from the cellphone tower and you have marginal reception (only one or two 'bars' of signal strength) then background noise can be the difference between being able to have cellphone service or not, however with a cellphone you are not so aware as a user as to the impact of background noise. With a ham radio operator you are more aware of any background noise and the impact that it is having on your ability to communicate.
Great video. I have solaredge system and yes the central inverter is a major draw back. With installers popping up then go out of business it could take months to get inverter replaced, In my case in SW Florida SolarEdge still showed my installer as being active when in fact they were shut down,witch took several days to resolve. Several more days to find new installers willing to take on the service of our system. Several more days for new installer to come out and verify unit was bed even though SolarEdge can see entire history of your system in 30 seconds. Total time without productivity 3 months +-. During the time without producing our electricity costs was $500 above what we would have paid in same time period.
Modern String Inverters (SMA, Fronius) nowadays have a shadow managment system and the panels have bypass diodes. So, if you can install your panels all in one direction, even if some get temporary shadowed, a string inverter is almost always the best solution (costly wise). Yes, you can´t monitor every single module, but normally that isn´t necessary.A central inverter provides a single point of failure, which is good and bad. Good: It´s only one device that could go down and you will realise the failure really fast. Also its easier to replace, because you don´t have to climb on the roof. Bad: If it goes down, the whole system goes down. Micro Inverters are good for small systems and modules that are mounted in different angles and/or directions. You can mix both systems, for the problematic modules use microinverters, for all others a normal string inverter. The SolarEdge Power Optimizer System is something in between, and in my opinion the worst optione to choose.
Not that bad if the whole system goes down. The fact is all inverters, including micro inverters, will need to be replaced in about 20 to 30 years. With a string inverter you do it once and your done, with micro inverters you will have to replace them at different times. So if you have 20 panels you will have 20 different repairs at 20 different times. What a pain and the cost will be through the roof.
@@mikegardner8450 And with a 570W panel being 130 euro these days while the micro-inverter is above that, it might be more interesting to just add panels instead of inverters.
Joe, your video are the best I have come across. Clear and concise without a lot of rambling. Very professional. I am having trouble determining the start up surge voltage for a 3 ton split HVAC system. I need to know this for using a portable gas generater (10K - is that enough power)? The manufacturer wasn't any help. Can anyone help me out?
A few considerations are missing here. The microinverters will output power on one phase only and in a house with split phases this could mean that if an appliance is drawing a lot of power on one phase, the solar system doesn’t produce enough power on that phase to satisfy the demand while at the same time selling unwanted power on the other phase. That’s not optimal at all. Also, most roofs will just be fine with a standard string inverter system. Inverters don’t fail so easily. And modern panels actually have built in bridging capabilities, to bridge either all or part of the panel when there is shading. This works remarkably well, in fact so well that in proper tests comparing a standard setup with a optimizer setup there is little difference in output. This is also because microinverters and optimizers produce additional losses which need to be recouped, but can only be recouped in particularly tricky shading situations.
I'm deep in the quote & system design on this very question. Great video but I'd love an update that adds Time of Use optimizations, home backup and EV charing which mean adding battery storage. Since batteries are inherently DC (and the fastest and most efficient EV charging is also DC) adding those requirements would seem to push things towards DC pretty hard. Thoughts?
wow - you have excellent communication skills with excellent organizational demonstration... a highly informative and efficient presentation.... a rare occasion on youtube... kduos
@@gilbrook It's true for any modern panel. Only solar panels that are over 15 years old where effected by shading. Since then they have added in bypass diodes that reroute the power when a section of the panel gets shaded. The other problem that Joe does not mention is clipping. You will get more power out of a string Inverter system than Micro Inverter if you live in a sunny area like Ca, Fl, NV etc. It's only when you go further North that the Micro Inverters have a slight 3% advantage. In sunny locations Micro Inverter clipping will kill up to 15% of your power generation during peak hours. Please look it up on TH-cam and you can see more detailed info on clipping.
@@Dreadlk Understanding clipping is good. Best to drive inverter to highest rating. I’m looking at 4kW (twelve 340W panels) w/Tesla 3.8kW dual MPPT inverter. No shading between 9am and 3pm. Going to allocate 6 panels to each MPPT. Your thoughts?
Enphase all day long, Ive been installing solar 12 years and nothing comes even close, performance, reliability, ease( especially adding more panels), the monitoring is second to none. The early envoy unit not having wifi used to be a pain but the new one has addressed the previous issues
Really good explanation, although I do think that the single point of failure is actually preferable as the string inverter will be easily accessible from the ground level. Is there a limit to the length of cable run from the panels before they reach the optimisers or micro inverters so that these can at least be located in an accessible area (ground level or even just within a roof space)? Seems to me that if you lose one panel it's not going to make sense to get anyone to come and replace the faulty box on the panel as the cost of access will be so high.
Single point of failure vs multiple points of redundancy? I think anyone would prefer the latter. If I were not limited by the cost I would've invested in DC optimizers myself.
@@shahzebatiq1 The point is how many panels/optimisers have to fail before it's worth the cost of paying for a scaffold and electrician to fix them? There's going to be a curved graph in it and typically you can bet that when you've decided to repair 5 panels/optimisers then another 3 will fail the day after the scaffold is gone.
@@westcoaststacker569 That's why I was dowering about whether the optimisers could be sited within the roof space itself so that replacement could be carried out if needed?
@@videogalore Their displays are shown that way, but the leads are short and designed to be installed under the panel. To install them elsewhere would require a pair of wire from each panel to the optimisers. This would also nullify the remote shutdown feature.
You don't lose the entire array if one panel gets shaded in the string system unless you wire the panels completely wrong. The diodes in the combiner box handle this.
Exactly ... this video as so many others takes the "one panel kills a whole string" as gospel without any actual testing. In most cases a simple diode or two is sufficient to deal with the problem, much cheaper and less prone to failure than either a microinveter or optimizer. One does lose the panel level monitoring though but is this worth the added cost ?
That's about it. Not to mention roof mounted electronics are exposed to the elements and according to independent sources they will fail. It is not an if, it is a when. Also they constantly consume a percentage of the generated electricity. I see people around selling these optimizers for cheap as they installed them and their production actually went down...
I have 2 inverters on the side of our house, much easier to replace like I had to do in the past without removing a solar panel in the middle of my roof if needed.
So glad to hear you confirm this bc I ordered micros for all of our panel install! Thanks for always providing such pertinent information to us all - keep up the good work Joe!
Interesting. I've been hearing the exact same opposite. That the micro inverters tend to fail often due to the high heat stress they are exposed to. If one fails you have to start climbing on a roof again and dismounting a bunch of panels to get to them. That's why we ended up going with a single string inverter at ground level.
no solution can be perfect to fit all projects. Thus, it’s so important that the contractor selects right solution for the end users. Well explained, Joe
Interesting video. I am writing this from India. Enphase is available now here too. unfortunately, it is costing more than double of a standard string inverter. There is a monitoring device to install it is costing twice the price of one micro-inverter. Is it the same there ?? just out of curiosity
Great video! High quality and very informative!!! New Sub. Working on building my own 10kw system and so far you have been a great source of information. Keep up the great work.
I have seen a lot of Micro inverters fail here in HOT Phoenix az. The panels were being thrown up. I asked and tgey gave the panels to me. I putvthem up and connected them to a string inverter.
If there's a failed microinverter under a panel in the middle of an array of panels on a steep roof 20 feet up in the air, how's it replaced? Do I need to erect scaffolding before removing adjacent panels to gain access to the failed component? If so, that's a very expensive repair! Or am I missing something?
Nice video, with lots of good points, the only one I disagree with is the enphase wireing being more complicated. You can have 13-16 panels on one circuit using iq7-iq7+ and they would be daisy chained just like a string system. Depending on panel size solar edge will take 15 or so per string so the number of circuits coming off the roof to the inverter or combiner box is very comparable. Other wise thanks for the video and keep up the good work educating people about solar and solar technologies.
Thanks for the tip. In my experience, SolarEdge has had good response time and they are usually willing to send you a replacement inverter without much resistance. However, the higher failure rate and customer down time is still a problem. Enphase has been way more reliable since we switched over.
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for a threephase environment Like most of Europe microinverters are a huge pain in the backside to wire. Accessability for repairs is another issue there. From that point of view the central inverter is preferrable - and the solution I went with for my system. Power optimizers are installed on panels where shade is to be expected.
You forgot about the combiner box for the microinverter system still being a single point of failure. Also the efficiency differences as well as the performance under high temperatures.
Very useful videos! Thanks for taking the time to put them together. They are very helpful for my learning. One question, does the Optimizer eliminate the shading issue the micro inverter solves or is shading cause performance issues for a string set up?
I exclusively use micro inverters. I love the flexibility of being able to start small and gradually grow the size of a solar implementation. I think it should however be noted that these do not provide power during a power outage. All micro inverters has a safety feature that they will not produce power is the grid is not live. So if there is no power there is no solar production. This video is very good but the description and intro both refer to power during a power failure which can be miss leading. There are a few other pieces of the puzzle missing when looking at solar power during a power outage
Hi Ryan. Thanks for writing in. Good point about the easy expandability of the micro-inverters. In order to provide off-grid backup power, we would pair the micro-inverter system with an AC battery like the Tesla Powerwall II or the Enphase Ensemble.
@@SolarSurge Do DC batteries like the Generac not work in an off grid scenario with micro inverters? Based on your other videos I would think the Pwrcell would be the logical choice for rural homes that need to start large loads off grid and micro inverters reduce failure points. Thank you for the high quality content. Looking forward to starting a quote.
@@Bombuzzz The Generac system uses a central inverter only (1 or 2) PWRCell X7602 inverters. There is no ability to mix and match micro-inverters with Generac's system.
That is an excellent point. But what I am not clear and need confirmed is if one panel is shaded or fails the rest of the panels still work and produce energy
It would be interesting to see a bill of materials done on the Enphase inverters and see if Enphase is gouging. It just seems like a 100 or 200 watt inverter typically retails for $30ish dollars, but Enphase sells their inverters for $250 retail. The synchronization parts can't make up that entire premium, can it?
Optimizers are easy to install but I've had to service a wall mounted system. Needless to say, they are not fun to service when you're trying to get to one in the back of the panel.
Micro inverters do not need matched panels, so if you need to replace a damaged panel, any will do. The wire from the rooftop (240) is smaller (single bank). Enphase has a nifty harness that makes hookup easy for a bank: connect or Cap-off)
There are some considerations that need to be made as panels are getting larger some backwards compatibly will work but may require a single inverter upgrade FYI
You did a good presentation. My only experience was with a linear current booster years ago that was made by Shurflo. I had a DC motor that a solar panel was not able to run for whatever reason. When I connected the LCB up to the panel the motor took off and I was amazed at what had just happened. I know that what the LCB did was to lower the voltage and supply more current to the motor. I had a solar panel and motor stop working one day and I thought that I had done something wrong. I had a cat that would go outside with me whenever I would do an experiment and on that day the cat's tail shaded the panel and everything stopped working. So, I know that you are correct when it comes shading. Not a good thing. Good video.
I'm missing the part about the monitoring of the both systems! Enphase (Envoy) and also APS (ECU) are offering only 5 and 3 years warranty on their communication devices. I heard that both devices break down easily (need to be replaced) or have a lot of downtime (need a hard reset). In case of optimizers with an invertor that have integrated monitoring/communication, for example Solar Edge, have a warranty of 20 years and less to none downtime. I think that this is also a big part in a decision of chosing for a specific system (micro-inverters or optimizers). My choise would be optimizers because of this part!
How much does each microinverter costs and what are the different types and their features? Please make a video on 5KWH, 10KWH, 20KWH, etc. solar system. Please explain why the components are chosen. Please make sure the solar systems are upgrade-able. Thank you.
Thanks for the video quite helpful. I'm looking to start my installation I bought the panels but I'm debating between the 2 since I'd like to have an (off the grid system) my question would be is there an approach while using the micro inverter or is it most likely that my project needs me to move towards optimizer. I'm thinking that the cost to change the energy back and forth is going to be expensive and not at all efficient. Thank you
Please share the MTTF info for Enphase microinverters vs. optimizers in West Texas high Summer heat scenarios (over 110°F ambient ). My concern is that the extreme roof temperatures will greatly shorten the life of electronics = multiple points of failure (even if placed in the shade of a solar panel). A 25-year replacement manufacturer warranty doesn't include the labor to get on the roof, remove the panel to access the microinverter or optimizer underneath, swap out the failed device, reconnect it, set the solar panel back in place, etc... unless your installer includes such labor warranty in your initial contract (and provided the installer is still in business 10+ years after install). Optimizers + string inverters are substantially cheaper to buy (vs. microinverters)
I am contemplating a 10 kW system for my home. I would like to install one of the PV panels with an off grid micro inverter, all others would be grid tied. The reason behind this is if there is a utility power outage the micro inverters will shut down and no power delivered when I need it the most. The question that I have will the grid tied micro inverters follow the off grid inverter and sync?
If you install an AC-coupled battery backup (e.g. Enphase, Franklin, or Tesla) then you can use all of your micro-inverters if off-grid mode. Please take a look at the video which explains how it works: th-cam.com/video/iZvgzengpbk/w-d-xo.html
My system in the U.K. has optimiser and a SolarEdge inverter. Three year in and the inverter failed all be it replaced by SolarEdge under warranty. However I’ve also one failed optimiser and that’s were my problem remains because the rubbish installer didn’t map the location of the inverters serial number relative to the serial number and position of the panel it serves. That can also happen with micro inverters, lesson learnt make sure to use a well established installer and if possible don’t fit on a U.K. roof as to replace a simple inverter involves expensive scaffolding.
This may be a stupid question but wouldn't it make sense to have cables running from each solar panel down to a bank of micro-inverters at ground level around the control panel area. If there is a failure, detecting the failure and swapping them out wouldn't involve roof access?
The purpose of the micro inverters is one in parts the simplicity of them. They literally attach directly to the back of the panel or frame system depending on how you set your system up. Then you essentially daisychained them together. Like he was saying in the video depending on what brand you have etc. they all have different software that will tell you which panels are producing more or less as well as if something is defective Or not running as it should. As with any type of solar panel installation, granted the intent is to put them up there and not have to mess with them but you need to make sure that everything is always accessible. I completely understand what you’re saying, however in the event that you were to be running let’s say 20 panels you now have 40 wires coming off of the roof that range anywhere from 12 gauge, 10 gauge, or even thicker depending on the distance they have to be run since you have to factor in potential loss if they’re being run for a long distance. You’re also looking at running 20 fuses in line, one per panel with a massive distribution box that is centrally located with 20 optimizers on the wall. Theoretically yes it would make it easy to walk up to whichever is messed up and swap it out, however once you start factoring in running 40 cables from your roof or under the ground in some sort of conduit to a central location then to a distribution point then to 20 or so optimizers it becomes a lot to mess with and personally I would say that the convenience is outweighed by the inconvenience of having to run all of the additional cables plus making room for everything. Keep in mind that the electrical wire used for the systems is not necessarily sky high expenses, but it’s not cheap especially with everything going on in our lovely economy. If you had to run 70 feet from your panels to your central distribution point, you’re looking at 70 feet times 40 cables, I’ll let you do the math lol.
Microinverters also have an advantage for tiny setups, and setups which are planned for gradual expansion/replacement over time (when mixing & matching second hand panels for example). For Enphase, you technically don't even need their monitoring hardware: You could buy ONE single panel at a time even from different brands and with different watt-peak ratings, and plug them into a free AC circuit breaker. You can scale at a linear cost, at least as far are your circuit breaker amperage rating allows.
I have a 10 panel array I’m going to be installing I’m building the array mounts currently. As far as initial cost which is more. Micro inverter or optimizers. I am grid tied so if system fails I am able to operate without it so I’m just looking at cost total and chance of a failure dependent on that expense.
2nd question. Both 2 gauge copper THHN wire southbell co sell by home depot n lowe's. But lowe list 110 amp max on their website, Home depot list 125 amp. But some where at HD. Also said 130 amp max. What different? Thanks
With panels now having more and more WP and the Emphase having a max output way less than the WP of the panels, isn't therefor the Optimiser beter as you get the full output of the panel?
Thanks for the informative video! Question: If I start with a grid tied system (either with micro inverters or optimized central inverter) and then a few years later want to add an AC-coupled battery system, does either alternative have an advantage? Thanks!!
Good question. Both Enphase and SolarEdge allow you to add an AC-coupled battery in the future. However, I still favor Enphase for the scenario because of its ability to partition the PV array into multiple segments to avoid overloading the battery.
I walk away with the impression that individual micro-inverters are the best system components to date, but with two primary negatives: they will cost more. Also you seem to allude to the wiring and hookup being more difficult. I gather that wiring AC vs DC local systems generally calls for slightly thicker cable, with a total resistance loss of up to 2% vs an acceptable loss of up to 3%. Aside from that, if it is even a factor in the US, what other difficulties, complexities or costs do you forsee using micro-inverters? Thanks
Thank you for this informative video. I have a question about energy loss. Inverters all lose a percentage of the power produced,don't they? So how does the efficiency compare between a single inverter with and without optimisers and the micro inverter system?
Solaredge 99% efficient enphase 95% (unless it overheats then it drops quite dramatically) biggest downside is its scalding hot underneath a black solar panel
yes anything there's an energy conversion you will lose energy. also cable thickness is a loss, to small to much resistance. but dc also drops fast over distance vs ac. then heat is a factor to.
Don't be serious about the Inverter Eff. but you should look at the loss from Panel low quality, direction of pv you install and even the degree of roof slope.
So easy to subscribe to a well presented video. Thanks for explaining the subject matter, I have been waiting over a year due to supply issues for panels both solar and electrical and the upside is the enphase IQ8 microinverter is now available. :-)
Micro inverter is better for grid tie, but, I would go with the DC optimizers, because of greater efficiency for charging batteries. AC coupling works, but, going from DC to AC, then back to DC is more lossy. DC optimizers are easier to design for, since, all I need to do is provide a constant current load,(about 20% higher than the output current of the panel), and the voltage will vary according to the wattage available from each individual panel. It also allows panels in the same string, to be on different planes. You've already described all the other advantages, of maximum power point tracking on each individual panel. I just wish I could obtain 300 watt DC optimizers, but no one wants to talk to a DIY'er, like myself.
@@SolarSurge The P340 might be the better choice, because it would run closer to its best efficiency point, on my 72 cell 300 watt panels. (I need 54 of these!)
Joe, planning on purchasing a solar system (9700kw) IQ8 plus inverters, company says when the grid goes down the system will only run @ 30% power, I understand the reason. This is my stumbling block, in real shtf times this system won’t let me even use my well pump when it’s only @ 30%. Is there any way to keep getting 100% when the power company is down and out??????? Barry martin
Hi Barry and thanks for writing in. The 30% limit applies and the SunLight backup only covers 120V loads. Most well pumps are on a 240V circuit. For true SHTF preparedness, just bite the bullet and purchase the batteries. We can get you a quote if you need.
That depends on what size solar panels you are using. As of today, the highest output Enphase micro-inverters are 349W AC. So for high-output solar panels like 400W+, I think SolarEdge has an advantage to minimize clipping loss.
Excellent explanation of this topic. I'm considering installing 14kw of panels on my roof but can only export 3.68kw back the grid with the remainder to battery storage. Would you mind briefly giving me your opinion of the best way to do this with a micro inverter system?
Hi Richard and thanks for writing in. In this case, I would recommend that you install enough battery storage for at least 50% of your average daily energy harvest. For a 14kW system, that would be roughly 3 Tesla Powerwalls or 4 Enphase IQ batteries.
SUPERB! A personable, intelligent, clear and professionally impeccable presentation, thank you sir! You could lecture on the topic and would shine amongst academics, as well as on-the-ground professional engineers! 10/10!
Wow, thank you!
I guess im randomly asking but does someone know a method to log back into an instagram account??
I was stupid forgot the account password. I love any tips you can give me.
@Peter Reed instablaster =)
@Eduardo Payton i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and im in the hacking process atm.
Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
You really should either take down this video or put a disclaimer that the information on Shading is incorrect. The whole String Inverter discussion about shading having an impact has been busted by several people and companies using a Scientific approach. You make excellent video's but you are doing your customers a disservice by regurgitating false information without doing any research.
Joe if you wanna know the Truth look at this video or search for some others, the proof is all over the place.
th-cam.com/video/UQ9Szhl1ceQ/w-d-xo.html
The reason I went micro inverter... expandability. I deployed in 2 phases, rather than buying another large inverter, I can increase my production a little at a time by adding more microinverters.
Yes. another good point. The micro-inverter architecture is more easily expandable. I would also say that it is more economical for smaller systems by avoiding the large cost of a central inverter. I think SolarEdge offers 3,800W as the smallest option. For a small DIY, you might want to start out with only 1-1.5kW. That's much easier to do with micro-inverters without spending an arm and a leg.
Exactly what I did... Adding more panels is just so easy.
@@SolarSurge thanks Matt and Joe, this is one of my primary questions about solar.
We live in the Sierra Nevada in California. Our electricity costs twice the national average, power company powerlines start many fires each year, and we are increasingly plagued by power outages. I'm out of my home today because the power has been out for a week because of fires.
As an electrical engineer I consider this an excellent explanation. For fellow techies, the "optimizer" is basically a DC to DC converter. And I can attest to the reliability problems with SE optimizers. The ones on my new home haven't worked for 3 months and counting. 0 watts delivered.
@@ts757arse Not so they match, but are the highest total string voltage. This improves the inverters conversion efficiency.
See this white paper Figure 3:
www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se_application_fixed_string_voltage.pdf
In the optimizer, a DC-DC converter, there is no conversion to AC. That's done at the inverter. Nothing the user need worry about.
@@ts757arse in DC systems harmonics and phase angle cut-off do not exist. That happens in AC sytems when frequencies are present. Modern DC/AC inverters can modulate sine waves in a near perfect way, it is the load wich switches the AC current and cause higher harmonics.
This guy is most excellent. He explains technical things in an orderly easy to understand way. That takes some special smarts. He should be running the energy department!
Mark my words, micro inverters won't last 25 years and those systems will have more frequent breakdowns, simply because there are more Points of failure
Micro inverters bad points you missed: 1. Less efficient (2% at least) 2. it needs thicker cables then 2.5mm2 AC, if not done loss is even more, while DC standard is 4mm2 3. output AC power is limited i.e. 290watts, there goes your 365wattpeak LG panel or so 4. complex to install in fusebox room, it needs more breakers on a three phase network 5. more points of failure instead of centralized (optimizers are built more simple) and they don't like heat. 6. When using a DC storage battery, you loose more power going from DC to AC then DC back to AC, with SolarEdge it's DC to DC
And don’t forget that with the Micro Inverters you have grid level voltage at all times from the fuse box all the way through the rooftop array to the last panel. The optimiser system only has the DC voltage on the roof but when it is not under load it reduces down to 1 Volt per optimiser which is so much more safer.
Yes the failure rate on central inverts is a lot lower, however the optimisers have about a 90% reliability and also suffer from heat like pannel level inverters . What no one is talking about though is mow we are seeing >500w pannels appear now it won’t be long before 72 full cell models appear for residential builds , enphase development team really have dropped the ball even with the iq8 design is limited on top models to 400w that may have been fine pre covid but time waits for no one as >500w panbels have been the goal for many home owners who have significant smaller panel’s in an area often limited to 16 even with real world losses it’s still far higher than enphase allow forcing owners it to old style strings
@@ram64man Maybe a dumb question because I'm new to solar. Are the >500w panels 72 cells? Or are there 60 cell ones getting to that point?
@@TheArtificiallyIntelligent there are 72 full cell _144 half cell models from jinkco solar and ja solar 540w. 570w on the market but supplies are very limited my contacts in india only got one shipment that's being used for water heaters in combination with water pumps in rural areas
Point 5 is ridiculous. With a power optimizer, if the central inverter fails then the entire thing fails all at once. With micro inverters, even if one fails, that doesn't mean all of them will fail at once.
Great presentation you rock. My opinion on the Solar Edge is that I have had only 1 SolarEdge inverter fail, but many optimizers. The Enphase has not be that perfect and I have had many fail. Keep up the good work Best.
Great video and better explanation! After more than one year with micro inverters without any downtime I guess my decision was correct. Tks
Please wait for the year 3th - 5th.
Great video. I was confused from people constantly using these terms without proper definition.
As a ham radio operator, Optimizers are also know to be RF noisy. So it you or your neighbor listen to AM radio or ham radio, Solar Edge could prevent that from working.
Hi Lee. Thanks for the comment. That's the first I've heard of the RF interference issue with optimizers. I'm a ham also, KK4WPO.
Are you the type of operator who calls the FCC on your neighbor?
@Lee Stanley - microinverters directly connect to the AC grid and hence have to comply to EMC standards in order to be legal to be sold. With DC optimizers and a string inverter there is a legal grey area. The inverter must meet EMC standards as it connects to the AC grid, however it is OK to test it without any of the DC optimizers connected or if they are connected it is OK to conduct the test with the optimizers set in their inactive 'bypass' mode. Since the DC optimizers do not directly connect to the AC grid then they don't need to comply with any of the EMC standards. This is part of the reason why optimizers are lower cost as they can be built without any form of EMC filter.
@Michael Harrisson will this also affect cellphones and two-way radios? We're planning to expand the number of panels but would not want our weak cellphone and two-way radio performance to get worse.
@@paulburger2866 technically speaking the noise generated by optimizers can interfere with all forms of radio transmissions, however ham radio is a lot more susceptible than other forms of radio. Cellphones use digital modulation schemes which are really immune to background noise and deal well with most sources of noise. They can also adjust their transmission power to help get through background noise when they detect it. If your site is a long way from the cellphone tower and you have marginal reception (only one or two 'bars' of signal strength) then background noise can be the difference between being able to have cellphone service or not, however with a cellphone you are not so aware as a user as to the impact of background noise. With a ham radio operator you are more aware of any background noise and the impact that it is having on your ability to communicate.
Bypass diodes built into panel prevent the 50% loss he said. MPPT adjust for variations.
Great video. I have solaredge system and yes the central inverter is a major draw back. With installers popping up then go out of business it could take months to get inverter replaced, In my case in SW Florida SolarEdge still showed my installer as being active when in fact they were shut down,witch took several days to resolve. Several more days to find new installers willing to take on the service of our system. Several more days for new installer to come out and verify unit was bed even though SolarEdge can see entire history of your system in 30 seconds. Total time without productivity 3 months +-. During the time without producing our electricity costs was $500 above what we would have paid in same time period.
Thank you Joe explained so that anybody can under stand.
Superb job my friend! Thank you for all the knowledge you give us.
What a refreshing presentation.
Modern String Inverters (SMA, Fronius) nowadays have a shadow managment system and the panels have bypass diodes. So, if you can install your panels all in one direction, even if some get temporary shadowed, a string inverter is almost always the best solution (costly wise). Yes, you can´t monitor every single module, but normally that isn´t necessary.A central inverter provides a single point of failure, which is good and bad. Good: It´s only one device that could go down and you will realise the failure really fast. Also its easier to replace, because you don´t have to climb on the roof. Bad: If it goes down, the whole system goes down. Micro Inverters are good for small systems and modules that are mounted in different angles and/or directions. You can mix both systems, for the problematic modules use microinverters, for all others a normal string inverter. The SolarEdge Power Optimizer System is something in between, and in my opinion the worst optione to choose.
Not that bad if the whole system goes down. The fact is all inverters, including micro inverters, will need to be replaced in about 20 to 30 years. With a string inverter you do it once and your done, with micro inverters you will have to replace them at different times. So if you have 20 panels you will have 20 different repairs at 20 different times. What a pain and the cost will be through the roof.
@@mikegardner8450 And with a 570W panel being 130 euro these days while the micro-inverter is above that, it might be more interesting to just add panels instead of inverters.
Your reviews are the best in the solar industry! I was waiting for someone like you
Thanks for the support!
Very nice, unbiased and useful presentation for 'the happening' topic now.. The Solar Energy.. Thanks a lot. Very Helpful :)👍
Awesome! So, SolArk, plus solar pod roof mounts, plus REC panels, plus lead acid car batteries!
Yes on all, except for car batteries. You don't want to use a car battery for deep cycling. Use lead acid golf cart batteries for off-grid solar.
Joe, your video are the best I have come across. Clear and concise without a lot of rambling. Very professional. I am having trouble determining the start up surge voltage for a 3 ton split HVAC system. I need to know this for using a portable gas generater (10K - is that enough power)? The manufacturer wasn't any help. Can anyone help me out?
Thanks for taking time to explain the differences.
A few considerations are missing here. The microinverters will output power on one phase only and in a house with split phases this could mean that if an appliance is drawing a lot of power on one phase, the solar system doesn’t produce enough power on that phase to satisfy the demand while at the same time selling unwanted power on the other phase. That’s not optimal at all. Also, most roofs will just be fine with a standard string inverter system. Inverters don’t fail so easily. And modern panels actually have built in bridging capabilities, to bridge either all or part of the panel when there is shading. This works remarkably well, in fact so well that in proper tests comparing a standard setup with a optimizer setup there is little difference in output. This is also because microinverters and optimizers produce additional losses which need to be recouped, but can only be recouped in particularly tricky shading situations.
I'm deep in the quote & system design on this very question. Great video but I'd love an update that adds Time of Use optimizations, home backup and EV charing which mean adding battery storage. Since batteries are inherently DC (and the fastest and most efficient EV charging is also DC) adding those requirements would seem to push things towards DC pretty hard. Thoughts?
I’m using this for customers to understand.
Thanks Joe, good explanation. Going for the micro inverter solution! Obviously a bit more financial layout, but more reliability and benefit
wow - you have excellent communication skills with excellent organizational demonstration... a highly informative and efficient presentation.... a rare occasion on youtube... kduos
Clear, concise and illuminating as usual. Easy education. A foundation to make your own choice.
Unfortunately its not accurate information.
The Truth about Shading:
th-cam.com/video/UQ9Szhl1ceQ/w-d-xo.html
@@Dreadlk Interesting. Think this is true for Tesla’s inverter?
@@gilbrook It's true for any modern panel. Only solar panels that are over 15 years old where effected by shading. Since then they have added in bypass diodes that reroute the power when a section of the panel gets shaded. The other problem that Joe does not mention is clipping. You will get more power out of a string Inverter system than Micro Inverter if you live in a sunny area like Ca, Fl, NV etc. It's only when you go further North that the Micro Inverters have a slight 3% advantage.
In sunny locations Micro Inverter clipping will kill up to 15% of your power generation during peak hours. Please look it up on TH-cam and you can see more detailed info on clipping.
@@Dreadlk Understanding clipping is good. Best to drive inverter to highest rating. I’m looking at 4kW (twelve 340W panels) w/Tesla 3.8kW dual MPPT inverter. No shading between 9am and 3pm. Going to allocate 6 panels to each MPPT. Your thoughts?
@@gilbrook Sounds like a good plan, just make sure that 6 panels produces enough voltage for the Tesla. It should but I don't know the panel specs.
Enphase all day long, Ive been installing solar 12 years and nothing comes even close, performance, reliability, ease( especially adding more panels), the monitoring is second to none.
The early envoy unit not having wifi used to be a pain but the new one has addressed the previous issues
Really good explanation, although I do think that the single point of failure is actually preferable as the string inverter will be easily accessible from the ground level. Is there a limit to the length of cable run from the panels before they reach the optimisers or micro inverters so that these can at least be located in an accessible area (ground level or even just within a roof space)?
Seems to me that if you lose one panel it's not going to make sense to get anyone to come and replace the faulty box on the panel as the cost of access will be so high.
Single point of failure vs multiple points of redundancy? I think anyone would prefer the latter. If I were not limited by the cost I would've invested in DC optimizers myself.
@@shahzebatiq1 The point is how many panels/optimisers have to fail before it's worth the cost of paying for a scaffold and electrician to fix them? There's going to be a curved graph in it and typically you can bet that when you've decided to repair 5 panels/optimisers then another 3 will fail the day after the scaffold is gone.
With Solar Edge you get the worst of both worlds, Failure points on the roof as well as the central inverter.
@@westcoaststacker569 That's why I was dowering about whether the optimisers could be sited within the roof space itself so that replacement could be carried out if needed?
@@videogalore Their displays are shown that way, but the leads are short and designed to be installed under the panel. To install them elsewhere would require a pair of wire from each panel to the optimisers. This would also nullify the remote shutdown feature.
You don't lose the entire array if one panel gets shaded in the string system unless you wire the panels completely wrong. The diodes in the combiner box handle this.
Exactly ... this video as so many others takes the "one panel kills a whole string" as gospel without any actual testing. In most cases a simple diode or two is sufficient to deal with the problem, much cheaper and less prone to failure than either a microinveter or optimizer. One does lose the panel level monitoring though but is this worth the added cost ?
That's about it. Not to mention roof mounted electronics are exposed to the elements and according to independent sources they will fail. It is not an if, it is a when. Also they constantly consume a percentage of the generated electricity. I see people around selling these optimizers for cheap as they installed them and their production actually went down...
I have 2 inverters on the side of our house, much easier to replace like I had to do in the past without removing a solar panel in the middle of my roof if needed.
A great video for explaining inverter options. Excellent!
So glad to hear you confirm this bc I ordered micros for all of our panel install! Thanks for always providing such pertinent information to us all - keep up the good work Joe!
I've really been enjoying your videos and hope you get some bang'n business for your efforts!
Thanks. Please keep liking and sharing.
Agreed...he is clear, concise, honest and straight forward. He does a good job!
Hey, super vidéo. thanks from Switzerland 😄😄
Amazing information and so well presented. Thankyou!
Very helpful. Thanks lots for this simple explanation.
Very well presented. Looking forward to watching more of your videos.
Great video thanks
Thank you for the video, really good explanation.
Good video presentation , but should have shown a comparison table and explained the merits and demerits
Brilliant simple clear explanation. Perfect! Thank you.
Nice informative video sir. How to order the DC optimazer?
Thank you for explaining this. This video was very helpful.
Glad it was helpful!
Interesting. I've been hearing the exact same opposite. That the micro inverters tend to fail often due to the high heat stress they are exposed to. If one fails you have to start climbing on a roof again and dismounting a bunch of panels to get to them. That's why we ended up going with a single string inverter at ground level.
I’ve installed many thousands of solar panels with micro inverters. Less than five failed. (Not 5%)
no solution can be perfect to fit all projects. Thus, it’s so important that the contractor selects right solution for the end users. Well explained, Joe
I believe installers should look for the best solution, not the cookie cutter one they prefer.
Interesting video. I am writing this from India. Enphase is available now here too.
unfortunately, it is costing more than double of a standard string inverter. There is a monitoring device to install it is costing twice the price of one micro-inverter. Is it the same there ?? just out of curiosity
Great video! High quality and very informative!!! New Sub. Working on building my own 10kw system and so far you have been a great source of information. Keep up the great work.
Glad it was helpful and thanks for the support!
I have seen a lot of Micro inverters fail here in HOT Phoenix az. The panels were being thrown up. I asked and tgey gave the panels to me. I putvthem up and connected them to a string inverter.
Thank you very much for your clear and good explanation! Have a good time Sir!
If there's a failed microinverter under a panel in the middle of an array of panels on a steep roof 20 feet up in the air, how's it replaced? Do I need to erect scaffolding before removing adjacent panels to gain access to the failed component? If so, that's a very expensive repair! Or am I missing something?
I just like listening to this guy talk. He could break bank by doing voice overs for technical user manuals.
Thank you!
Nice video, with lots of good points, the only one I disagree with is the enphase wireing being more complicated. You can have 13-16 panels on one circuit using iq7-iq7+ and they would be daisy chained just like a string system. Depending on panel size solar edge will take 15 or so per string so the number of circuits coming off the roof to the inverter or combiner box is very comparable.
Other wise thanks for the video and keep up the good work educating people about solar and solar technologies.
Thanks for the reply. You are correct. Parallel branch cable length for the microinverters is close to the Solar Edge max string length.
You should do a troubleshooting customer call wait time with SolarEdge and Enphase.
Thanks for the tip. In my experience, SolarEdge has had good response time and they are usually willing to send you a replacement inverter without much resistance. However, the higher failure rate and customer down time is still a problem. Enphase has been way more reliable since we switched over.
for a threephase environment Like most of Europe microinverters are a huge pain in the backside to wire. Accessability for repairs is another issue there. From that point of view the central inverter is preferrable - and the solution I went with for my system. Power optimizers are installed on panels where shade is to be expected.
You forgot about the combiner box for the microinverter system still being a single point of failure. Also the efficiency differences as well as the performance under high temperatures.
Great video! Thanks!
Very useful videos! Thanks for taking the time to put them together. They are very helpful for my learning. One question, does the Optimizer eliminate the shading issue the micro inverter solves or is shading cause performance issues for a string set up?
Excellent presentation
I exclusively use micro inverters. I love the flexibility of being able to start small and gradually grow the size of a solar implementation. I think it should however be noted that these do not provide power during a power outage. All micro inverters has a safety feature that they will not produce power is the grid is not live. So if there is no power there is no solar production. This video is very good but the description and intro both refer to power during a power failure which can be miss leading. There are a few other pieces of the puzzle missing when looking at solar power during a power outage
Hi Ryan. Thanks for writing in. Good point about the easy expandability of the micro-inverters. In order to provide off-grid backup power, we would pair the micro-inverter system with an AC battery like the Tesla Powerwall II or the Enphase Ensemble.
@@SolarSurge Do DC batteries like the Generac not work in an off grid scenario with micro inverters? Based on your other videos I would think the Pwrcell would be the logical choice for rural homes that need to start large loads off grid and micro inverters reduce failure points. Thank you for the high quality content. Looking forward to starting a quote.
@@Bombuzzz The Generac system uses a central inverter only (1 or 2) PWRCell X7602 inverters. There is no ability to mix and match micro-inverters with Generac's system.
That is an excellent point. But what I am not clear and need confirmed is if one panel is shaded or fails the rest of the panels still work and produce energy
Excellent explanation, clear, concise, informative, thanks.
It would be interesting to see a bill of materials done on the Enphase inverters and see if Enphase is gouging. It just seems like a 100 or 200 watt inverter typically retails for $30ish dollars, but Enphase sells their inverters for $250 retail. The synchronization parts can't make up that entire premium, can it?
Optimizers are easy to install but I've had to service a wall mounted system. Needless to say, they are not fun to service when you're trying to get to one in the back of the panel.
Micro inverters do not need matched panels, so if you need to replace a damaged panel, any will do.
The wire from the rooftop (240) is smaller (single bank). Enphase has a nifty harness that makes hookup easy for a bank: connect or Cap-off)
Good points here. Both micro-inverter and optimizers allow you to mix and match different solar panels.
There are some considerations that need to be made as panels are getting larger some backwards compatibly will work but may require a single inverter upgrade FYI
String inverters typically have to go back to the distribution board for sub metering. Is this required for micro inverters
You did a good presentation. My only experience was with a linear current booster years ago that was made by Shurflo. I had a DC motor that a solar panel was not able to run for whatever reason. When I connected the LCB up to the panel the motor took off and I was amazed at what had just happened.
I know that what the LCB did was to lower the voltage and supply more current to the motor.
I had a solar panel and motor stop working one day and I thought that I had done something wrong. I had a cat that would go outside with me whenever I would do an experiment and on that day the cat's tail shaded the panel and everything stopped working. So, I know that you are correct when it comes shading. Not a good thing. Good video.
Thanks for the info
I'm missing the part about the monitoring of the both systems! Enphase (Envoy) and also APS (ECU) are offering only 5 and 3 years warranty on their communication devices. I heard that both devices break down easily (need to be replaced) or have a lot of downtime (need a hard reset). In case of optimizers with an invertor that have integrated monitoring/communication, for example Solar Edge, have a warranty of 20 years and less to none downtime. I think that this is also a big part in a decision of chosing for a specific system (micro-inverters or optimizers). My choise would be optimizers because of this part!
Thanks for sharing ❤
How much does each microinverter costs and what are the different types and their features? Please make a video on 5KWH, 10KWH, 20KWH, etc. solar system. Please explain why the components are chosen. Please make sure the solar systems are upgrade-able. Thank you.
Thanks for the video quite helpful.
I'm looking to start my installation I bought the panels but I'm debating between the 2 since I'd like to have an (off the grid system) my question would be is there an approach while using the micro inverter or is it most likely that my project needs me to move towards optimizer. I'm thinking that the cost to change the energy back and forth is going to be expensive and not at all efficient. Thank you
I project is in West Africa, how can buy Solaredge products?
This was great. thanks !
Please share the MTTF info for Enphase microinverters vs. optimizers in West Texas high Summer heat scenarios (over 110°F ambient ). My concern is that the extreme roof temperatures will greatly shorten the life of electronics = multiple points of failure (even if placed in the shade of a solar panel). A 25-year replacement manufacturer warranty doesn't include the labor to get on the roof, remove the panel to access the microinverter or optimizer underneath, swap out the failed device, reconnect it, set the solar panel back in place, etc... unless your installer includes such labor warranty in your initial contract (and provided the installer is still in business 10+ years after install). Optimizers + string inverters are substantially cheaper to buy (vs. microinverters)
I am contemplating a 10 kW system for my home. I would like to install one of the PV panels with an off grid micro inverter, all others would be grid tied. The reason behind this is if there is a utility power outage the micro inverters will shut down and no power delivered when I need it the most. The question that I have will the grid tied micro inverters follow the off grid inverter and sync?
If you install an AC-coupled battery backup (e.g. Enphase, Franklin, or Tesla) then you can use all of your micro-inverters if off-grid mode. Please take a look at the video which explains how it works: th-cam.com/video/iZvgzengpbk/w-d-xo.html
My system in the U.K. has optimiser and a SolarEdge inverter. Three year in and the inverter failed all be it replaced by SolarEdge under warranty. However I’ve also one failed optimiser and that’s were my problem remains because the rubbish installer didn’t map the location of the inverters serial number relative to the serial number and position of the panel it serves. That can also happen with micro inverters, lesson learnt make sure to use a well established installer and if possible don’t fit on a U.K. roof as to replace a simple inverter involves expensive scaffolding.
Thanks. Great explanation.
This may be a stupid question but wouldn't it make sense to have cables running from each solar panel down to a bank of micro-inverters at ground level around the control panel area. If there is a failure, detecting the failure and swapping them out wouldn't involve roof access?
The purpose of the micro inverters is one in parts the simplicity of them. They literally attach directly to the back of the panel or frame system depending on how you set your system up. Then you essentially daisychained them together. Like he was saying in the video depending on what brand you have etc. they all have different software that will tell you which panels are producing more or less as well as if something is defective Or not running as it should. As with any type of solar panel installation, granted the intent is to put them up there and not have to mess with them but you need to make sure that everything is always accessible.
I completely understand what you’re saying, however in the event that you were to be running let’s say 20 panels you now have 40 wires coming off of the roof that range anywhere from 12 gauge, 10 gauge, or even thicker depending on the distance they have to be run since you have to factor in potential loss if they’re being run for a long distance. You’re also looking at running 20 fuses in line, one per panel with a massive distribution box that is centrally located with 20 optimizers on the wall. Theoretically yes it would make it easy to walk up to whichever is messed up and swap it out, however once you start factoring in running 40 cables from your roof or under the ground in some sort of conduit to a central location then to a distribution point then to 20 or so optimizers it becomes a lot to mess with and personally I would say that the convenience is outweighed by the inconvenience of having to run all of the additional cables plus making room for everything. Keep in mind that the electrical wire used for the systems is not necessarily sky high expenses, but it’s not cheap especially with everything going on in our lovely economy. If you had to run 70 feet from your panels to your central distribution point, you’re looking at 70 feet times 40 cables, I’ll let you do the math lol.
Microinverters also have an advantage for tiny setups, and setups which are planned for gradual expansion/replacement over time (when mixing & matching second hand panels for example).
For Enphase, you technically don't even need their monitoring hardware: You could buy ONE single panel at a time even from different brands and with different watt-peak ratings, and plug them into a free AC circuit breaker. You can scale at a linear cost, at least as far are your circuit breaker amperage rating allows.
I have a 10 panel array I’m going to be installing I’m building the array mounts currently. As far as initial cost which is more. Micro inverter or optimizers. I am grid tied so if system fails I am able to operate without it so I’m just looking at cost total and chance of a failure dependent on that expense.
2nd question. Both 2 gauge copper THHN wire southbell co sell by home depot n lowe's. But lowe list 110 amp max on their website, Home depot list 125 amp. But some where at HD. Also said 130 amp max. What different? Thanks
With panels now having more and more WP and the Emphase having a max output way less than the WP of the panels, isn't therefor the Optimiser beter as you get the full output of the panel?
Great Breakdown of details
Why does a small shade in one panel reduces the entire array by 50 % ? Could not figure it out on my own.Will you please explain ?
Thanks for the informative video! Question: If I start with a grid tied system (either with micro inverters or optimized central inverter) and then a few years later want to add an AC-coupled battery system, does either alternative have an advantage? Thanks!!
Good question. Both Enphase and SolarEdge allow you to add an AC-coupled battery in the future. However, I still favor Enphase for the scenario because of its ability to partition the PV array into multiple segments to avoid overloading the battery.
I walk away with the impression that individual micro-inverters are the best system components to date, but with two primary negatives: they will cost more. Also you seem to allude to the wiring and hookup being more difficult. I gather that wiring AC vs DC local systems generally calls for slightly thicker cable, with a total resistance loss of up to 2% vs an acceptable loss of up to 3%. Aside from that, if it is even a factor in the US, what other difficulties, complexities or costs do you forsee using micro-inverters? Thanks
Great explanation - great job!
Well explained. Thanx
..great help aid!
Very well presented. Thanks
Excellent.
Thanks for your time
Thank you for this informative video.
I have a question about energy loss. Inverters all lose a percentage of the power produced,don't they? So how does the efficiency compare between a single inverter with and without optimisers and the micro inverter system?
Solaredge 99% efficient enphase 95% (unless it overheats then it drops quite dramatically) biggest downside is its scalding hot underneath a black solar panel
yes anything there's an energy conversion you will lose energy. also cable thickness is a loss, to small to much resistance. but dc also drops fast over distance vs ac. then heat is a factor to.
Don't be serious about the Inverter Eff. but you should look at the loss from Panel low quality, direction of pv you install and even the degree of roof slope.
So easy to subscribe to a well presented video. Thanks for explaining the subject matter, I have been waiting over a year due to supply issues for panels both solar and electrical and the upside is the enphase IQ8 microinverter is now available. :-)
Micro inverter is better for grid tie, but, I would go with the DC optimizers, because of greater efficiency for charging batteries. AC coupling works, but, going from DC to AC, then back to DC is more lossy. DC optimizers are easier to design for, since, all I need to do is provide a constant current load,(about 20% higher than the output current of the panel), and the voltage will vary according to the wattage available from each individual panel. It also allows panels in the same string, to be on different planes. You've already described all the other advantages, of maximum power point tracking on each individual panel. I just wish I could obtain 300 watt DC optimizers, but no one wants to talk to a DIY'er, like myself.
Hi Vincent. You should be able to purchase SolarEdge P340 or P400 optimizers. Try renvu.com or Krannich Solar.
@@SolarSurge The P340 might be the better choice, because it would run closer to its best efficiency point, on my 72 cell 300 watt panels. (I need 54 of these!)
Joe, planning on purchasing a solar system (9700kw) IQ8 plus inverters, company says when the grid goes down the system will only run @ 30% power, I understand the reason. This is my stumbling block, in real shtf times this system won’t let me even use my well pump when it’s only @ 30%. Is there any way to keep getting 100% when the power company is down and out??????? Barry martin
Hi Barry and thanks for writing in. The 30% limit applies and the SunLight backup only covers 120V loads. Most well pumps are on a 240V circuit. For true SHTF preparedness, just bite the bullet and purchase the batteries. We can get you a quote if you need.
Hi there I'm looking to install my own plug in solar system. I believe the micro inverter just wires to the electrical Board and how is this done
The micro-inverters all come down in a Combiner box (Enphase IQ Combiner 4) and then you connect a single circuit from that to your main panel.
Which conduit size is right to run 3 x 4 gauge wire with 5 times turn 90 degree angle to get to remote destination sub- panel box. Thanks
Thank you Joe. Excellent video.
What are your views on inverter+dc optimisers and microinverters clipping?
That depends on what size solar panels you are using. As of today, the highest output Enphase micro-inverters are 349W AC. So for high-output solar panels like 400W+, I think SolarEdge has an advantage to minimize clipping loss.
@@SolarSurge
Thank you
Panels 360Wp 268W NOCT with IQ7+ microinveters
Should be ok
Excellent explanation of this topic. I'm considering installing 14kw of panels on my roof but can only export 3.68kw back the grid with the remainder to battery storage. Would you mind briefly giving me your opinion of the best way to do this with a micro inverter system?
Hi Richard and thanks for writing in. In this case, I would recommend that you install enough battery storage for at least 50% of your average daily energy harvest. For a 14kW system, that would be roughly 3 Tesla Powerwalls or 4 Enphase IQ batteries.