Since this debate took place, Jonathan McLatchie has created a video with some subsequent views on the apparent sexual slavery in Numbers 31. See here: th-cam.com/video/fgIcQqz7ZSE/w-d-xo.html
I watched it. It isexactly what i commented yesterday. Sex slavery was never mentioned. It's assumption and speculation. These girls could be their wifes. The problematic part is after that. God orders some of these girls to be sacrificed for him. They are slaugtered with the animals as a gift for god.
@@Yavor-Karapetrov "These girls could be their wives." Look at it from the girls' perspective. Strangers come to their lands, they have some peaceful interactions, one of the strangers married their king s daughter and then one day they just attack. They kill their fathers, mothers, brothers and older sisters. Now they are forced to marry the men who killed their family and friends and deuteronomy is pretty clear that women are little more than property, with no right to divorce or even refuse their 'husbands' sex. How is this not sexual slavery?
@@CJFCarlsson _"Wait they did, snowflakes."_ no they did not, Sam Harris ripped this silly argument apart by saying if there was a period in time where every single people in a society was christian then every action good or bad or neutral or whatever in that era by definition was made by christians but if this is the case then hundreds of years later singling out one specific action saying "this action was made by christians" loses every meaning saying that "modern science was developed by christians in the late medieval era" or "slavery was abolished by christians" make no sense whatsoever
@@CJFCarlsson you do realize that the heavily christian american south used the bible to defend slavery right? But i wouldn't expect a conservative to know history
It’s literally like their moral fiber is made of silly putty! Ask me how I know? OK I’ll tell you. I was brought up in a racist, fundamentalist, Christian-rationalizes-anything rural Merica. “Right” to them is whatever they can manipulate the Bible word salad to mean. It’s akin to Islamic or any other kind of fundamentalism if you can justify any harm. Disgusting but just watch a Tucker Carlson do it all the time.
Still ironic when you both support slavery today the reason millions more than any other time In history stay slaves isn't because they are treated so well I know when I watch the world cup thousands of slaves died and I'll be supporting it as in many other ways if you don't protest you clearly accept it ask yourself how can Christians stop you using slaves
@@davidevans3223 Please repeat, but this time take care to articulate yourself, making it clear not just what you are saying, but who you are directing it at. Making full use of punctuation would also help. Thank you.
Alex is GENIUS. His debating technique is grounded in logic and reason, he remains calm always and his content is always emotional and usually riveting.
@@shannaveganamcinnis-hurd405 what about the slaves TODAY that are morally acceptable they are clearly to afraid to try escaping and you must know many are killed it's funny you believe the bible condones slavery when it's what people have always done and still do today it's almost impossible for you to have not benefited from real slaves including kid's
@@davidevans3223 sorry, is your argument that God and the bible are as evil as humans so nobody can complain?....That's a silly argument and criticising those who live in countries in which slavery has been illegal for years for slave labour in other countries is absurd, we have no control over that you twisted little man and no one here is condoning it, well, with the exception of you, apparently?
The elephant in the room here is that discussion is even taking place. It would not take place if there was a commandment that said "you shall not have slaves", in that list of 10 things that God doesn't want you to do, together with things like, you know, you shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not covet your neighbor’s stuff, etc...
Even if it weren't there, just anywhere in the bible have a clear condemnation of slaves with no room for confusion, and not have dozens more passages saying "make sure this is how you keep slaves". Instead we have Jesus telling slaves to obey their masters.
That's not true at all there's more slaves now than any time in history the free world is Christian the the free world was created by by Christian inspired morals China committing genocide north Korea a slave nation both atheist USSR before they went back to Christianity mass genocide be greatful you were born in a free country created by Christians
@@davidevans3223 ... Mass genocide and ethics seem to be independent of religion. You have countries in Europe that are among the most atheist ones in the world and where the standard of living and happiness are also the highest in the world. You have atrocities made in the name of the Christina God, from the inquisition to the virtual elimination of the indigenous people in America. Also, when you talk about the moral inspired by the Bible... it is the other way around. Our moral inspires our interpretation of the bible. The scripturas are so unclear, ambiguous, and even contradictory, that if we want to make a logical sense of them we NEED to give it our own interpretation and even cherry-pick. Where do the ethics and values that we use to interpret the Bible come from? From the Bible? I don't think so...
@@adb012 firstly more of Europe was controlled by the Romans fed people to lion's kept slaves etc until the become Christians even the pagans believe in human sacrifices like all over the world for 10s of thousands of year's no social progress until the bible you can believe it's a coincidence I know it's divinely inspired those so called atheist in Europe have there good life from Christians it's just a fact also don't believe everything you read if you have low expectations you'll be happy with what you have look at the suicide rate and compare to a poor African country happiness isn't something they can understand it's more based on wealth
@@davidevans3223 ... When you have time, check Buddhism. It is possibly the most tolerant and peaceful religion in the world, it is not based in the Bible (old or new testament) or influenced by it in any way, it precedes the birth of Christ by more than 500 years, never a war was fought in the name of Buddhism, never people was assimilated, exterminated or enslaved in the name of Buddhism, and.... what else? There was one more thing... let me remind it... Oh yes! It is an atheistic religion!!!
I must admit, it took courage for that guy to say “I don’t have an answer to that question”. Yet my respect is lost when he continues to defend a book that is claimed to be a moral guide whilst containing such morally bankrupt advice
He starts by saying the Bible is our guide to morality, and ends by saying that the Bible has passages so morally confusing that he, a scholar of those texts, doesn't know why they say what they say. If he can spend 20+ years studying Biblical "morality" and still gets stumped by sexual slavery being COMMANDED BY GOD just 4 books in, why would I even bother reading on past that point? He can read it and call it "mysterious," I can read it and say it's disgusting and morally bankrupt, and we're left agreeing that the Bible doesn't give us very clear moral advice.
@@aaronlawrence6350 sexual slavery isn't permitted by God in numbers 31 I'm very disappointed that this Christian who's debating someone who's obviously very intellectually smart clearly hadn't read or understood the context of the passage being brought up "Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16 “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord’s people. 17 So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19 basically balaam sent a bunch of women over to Israel to seduce them into committing idolatry with them, God then got rid of the Israelite who slept with them (24 000) and kept the ones who haven't slept with Israelite (virgins) BTW these women were adopted into Israel not by sexual slavery or force
That felt like a public flogging. It is truly amazing to watch educated and articulate men and women try and defend the contradictions, hypocrites and atrocities of the Bible. Like there is ever a reasonable justification for Rape, slavery and genocide.
@@taramoon9307 it's not about context clearly the bible isn't factually accurate but it's what inspired the morals that made the free world where slavery is actually ilegal and enforced by law there's more slaves now than any time in history and you support them when you shop etc you don't care they are forced or why would they stay. Many are sex slaves many are kid's some US company's were fighting for the right's to use Chinese slaves who are also being exterminated I admit I support them do you or do you prefer ignorance
@@davidevans3223 The Bible is definitely *not* "what inspired the morals that made the free world where slavery is illegal", it was used by slave trader to justify slave trade and fought during the enlightenment by people that faced public shaming and persecution because of the bible. The strongest driver of European enlightenment, Baruch Spinoza, was excommunicated, cursed and persecuted in a horrible way by his orthodox Jewish community, and the same is true for many Catholics and Protestant philosophers.
@@bobon123 Europe was controlled by Romans who were advanced but kept slaves it wasn't morally wrong back then no point in arguing it wasn't since the biggining of man nothing to do with Christianity but great Britain a fully Christian country went around the world destroying the international slave trader's at that point in history it because morally unacceptable just a 10s of thousands of year's it was morally right. Many advanced civilisations are gone but human sacrifices cannibalism and slavery were the norm all over the world the free world wouldn't exist without the bible that's not a debate it's a fact whether you believe in God isn't relevant look at China committing genocide north Korea a slave nation both atheist USSR before they went back to Christianity. The Romans become Christians and stopped being so evil same around the world of course atheist and other religons still have slavery and it's morally acceptable there Indian has millions all Muslim country's and the atheist ones What makes you believe your opinion which is all morals are is right and just happens to be a coincidence it's from a Christian background thats insane look at the new atheists cults veganisum or infinite gender theory nutters both deny science both claim moral justification for forcing there beliefs on everyone else. You can stay in denile it's fine but someone will always want to dictate what they believe is right people want to feel good about themselves and joining a cult has always happend even with atheists but some how Christianity made the free world dispite all the evil people using it for there own advantage the fact is there isn't any evidence the free world could exist without Christianity you can see if you look today in the west or around the world sure it's not perfect we are far from perfect
Jonathan knows that he's wrong. If he thought he was right, he would not dance around the fact that you're allowed to beat your endentured servants as long as they don't suffer permanent bodily harm.
@@romanski5811 people can't help it people want to feel good about themselves and joining a cult has always been a way for people to feel superior to other's atheists have to invent new one's
The moment the guy said: "I'm not convinced that k- innocent ppl is always wrong", I'm out. These apologists should keep their career safe until religion fall apart. Disgusting.
Anyone who claims the Bible doesn’t condone slavery either hasn’t read the Bible, or is doing a level of mental gymnastics that should be competed at the Olympics
Don't forget that many Christians haven't actually read the Bible, they only know what they have been told it says ( you know, the "nice" bits). And the ones that have read it appear to use it as a menu instead of a book.
@@UrukEngineer Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes; Amos 2:6 KJV This is God against the idea of selling others for coin
@@dylanchristman978 Tell me Dylan, do you think the bible is like some kind of "Chinese buffet" were you get to pick out the parts you like but just disregard the parts you don't ??? I too _"read my bible"_ indeed its BECAUSE I read my bible that I'm an atheist, I think it was Mark Twain that said...... _"It ain’t the parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand_"
Alex is so polite. He does everything he can to avoid saying the book in question is littered with ancient cultural norms that are not acceptable in this day and age. BS in other words.
It's amazing how thoroughly a religion can ruin someone's moral compass. This guy was on stage saying that owning slaves and beating them is completely fine as long as the bodily harm "isn't permanent". Also saying that sex slavery and genocide, while they seem morally repugnant, are fine if his dictator said they are fine, even when it makes no moral or logical sense. This is how morally bankrupt one has to be to defend this dumpster fire of a book.
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
To add- One of infinite way I see it is, there's always been dictators that would do the things God does in the Bible without hesitation. There's a mini dictator in all of us in a way. But also a slave/ servant attitude. If that means believers are chosen and other people are put to death, so be it- Subconsciously however. Better to side with a god then fellow man and be damned... (I'm ex Christian though, I didn't think like that, I was a near perfect role model blind faith Xian in mind and body so that's why I changed- why should blind faith be of any value to a good god lol)
That last bit: DO find texts that you read containing horrific 'commands' reprehensible. When you read a page of the bible and find both glaring inconsistencies and dictates that trouble you to your core - see it for what it is. If that shakes your faith to the fucking floor, so be it. If you can rebuild, and that foundation stands then good for you, If not, welcome to reality.
I do. I didn't take the situations seriously. I would blow off words like "genocide" and discount the reality of little girls seeing their families slaughtered before they are viciously sexually attacked. A simple though would go through my mind "times were different back then" and that thought would be followed with a self-righteous thought of "this other person doesn't have the Holy Spirit, so they don't see the light". With those 2 simple thoughts, I was able to easily justify things like Numbers 31.
When Dr. Jonathan McLatchie answered, "There is a form of discipline in slavery, yeah.", I have to wince. I still can't figure out how some people get a PhD, but I guess in the social sciences you kind of make it up as you go along.
Alex calmly held his feet to the fire and he was befuddled. I love when a Christian is forced to contend with the immorality found in his "sacred" doctrine.
Funny how they never explain why a book inspired by an eternal being who exists outside of time wrote a book that is painfully stuck in the past. If you (a sinful flawed person) wrote a book for that society you would probably write the most egalitarian document ever conceived, outlawing rape, child abuse, torture, slavery and condemning slavery and corruption. Anyone here could write a better set of ethics than the bible. Yet this perfect being didnt even bother to include outlawing violence against literally half of all people.
When an apologist gets cornered they inevitably come out with some variation of the "Who are you to question God" argument, which is a sign that they are not only losing the intellectual battle in front of them but are also getting hammered by their own cognitive dissonance over their defense of the indefensible.
Who are you to claim slavery is bad there's more slaves now than any time in history you support them like everyone in the west you can't play ignorant do you believe they work many to the death by peaceful means
@@taramoon9307 what like you using a device most likely involved in slavery or certainly abuse one of many things you do to condemn slavery while actively supporting it there's more slaves now than any time in history you support by now careing that's kind of how it work's
@@davidevans3223 umm...maybe? Not in proportion to the general population though, and it's certainly not considered normal to the point where a holy book would make instructions on how to treat one. Also, the fact that it still exists doesn't make it good. Or are you implying otherwise?
@@alextrigger8199 slavery is evil and should never be tolerated but look at the left attacking statues but will happily travel to Dubai where thousands of slaves die to keep building new hotel's for the left to enjoy clearly not only them but the fact nobody cares about how their goods are acquired proves that slavery is socially acceptable today just a fact law's are in place to some degree for no other reason but to look good but again historically war's happened there was 2 options kill the enerny or use them the fact you believe Christians had the power to force there belief on the world shows ignorance there was no way Romans etc would give up slaves because a few Christian's tell them to treating them better was probably pushing it like someone telling you how to treat you dog.. Look at evolution we are here because countless others were killed all the way to modern humans genocide is part of evolution to try and see the world 2000 years ago threw your eyes is insane one day people will look back at you and see how barbaric and primative you are there's never been no way slavery rape are still normal people dying from starvation when the.uk alone bins more high quality food then needed to feed all those that will die this year how are you able to judge anyone 2000 years ago without judging yourself. Christian inspired morals made the free world before that it was pure evil the fact it was spread by the last of countless empire's was human nature not God's will it's what would have happened anyway and we could all by Muslims living in the dark as slaves unable think freely as the Qur'an demands
A couple of points. Have you ever watched someone be beaten in real life? I have seen people beaten and it is traumatic, even if they limp away immediately afterwards. Imagine what a beating would look like that took 24 hours to walk again. I'd like to have a full length video of that played prior to each defense of this. Obviously, you'd to to prison just for Possession of the tapes, but imagine the complete and utter horror of being rapped as a child by the man that you watched murder your parents!!! If your God were real, I'd volunteer for eternal damnation to protest him. Thanks God, he is fictional.
"Obviously, you'd to to prison just for Possession of the tapes..." Possesion of these kinds of tapes is not illegal or at least in many countries it is not. I agree on your actual points thou.
That's just your opinion animal's are not the same the fact there's more slaves now than any time in history and you care more about chickens is sad you do support slavery you can't be that ignorant
@@OnesFan1 there's more human slaves TODAY than any other time In history I think we can agree 1 human is worth infinite number of animal's even vegans agree otherwise you certainly wouldn't have kid's that will result in more animals killed forever or you'd calculate how many billions you're willing to have killed for your food before stopping as eating meat alone kills less animals than eating bread. Of course you could admit that NOT all animals are the same still probably be about even
@@OnesFan1 do you really believe history will look at you as progressive it's insane not eating avocados and almond milk or use Palm oil would be far better than not eating meat toy literally pay for extinction of rare species when you could in the U.K. eat grass fed carbon neutral cow's that use land unsuitable for anything but grazing never mind I suppose Hitler belived he was progressive to history won't see it your way
@@davidevans3223 i don't know what avocados or almond milks are you talking about, I only eat what my 900$ salary in Japan give me, since you thing that's the average vegan person that is because you are a privilege person that never had to eat only potatoes, rice and lentils 1 meal a day. Society will see in the future the ATROCITIES that we do to other animals and humanize them, the same way we dehumanised our own species only 200 years ago and still doing to this that in some places. We can humanize the other animals the same way we can dehumanise animals who we can reproduce, talk the same language and still wasn't enought to consider them as equal. The human case isn't fixed and it will not until we stop discrimination starting from the animals.
This is unfortunately where many debates go. A justification from man’s perspective These positions are irrelevant and distracting. The question should be; Can an all knowing objectively moral god condone some of his children own some of his other children? It doesn’t matter how you justify it. The answer is no. An infinite objective god can’t be subjective. Only man can.
The six day creation, flood, etc are all literally true. But this bit where slavery, genocide, rape, murder etc is condoned, has to be read within its "context".
I even find it funny that the main take-home messages in the bible that even the most moderate Christian believes in (i.e. that God exists, or that Jesus was resurrected) are assumed to be literally true, and not simply fanciful stories told in the context of the Bronze Age to try to explain the world and keep people in line, and then all the 'problematic' things are clearly just parables or out of context.
Honestly, Alex didn't even need to show off his skills here. The text is so clear... 8:00 at this moment I really want him to say "throw hands up to the sky and say Hasa Diga Eebowai"
Maybe I just haven't thought about it hard enough, but I'm confused by you both agreeing that "it's not always wrong to kill innocent people"... I'd be interested in hearing you give an explanation of that view! Unless it's just something as simple as "if you had to kill one innocent to save 10,000 then it's justified". In which case, I agree. It just sounded like a different context here.
I think you're right, at least for Alex's perspective. That he doesn't believe it's *always* wrong to kill an innocent person, due to extreme hypotheticals like having to save thousands or millions of others by killing one.
@@chuckybang That's kind of the point really. The definition can vary from person to person, or depending on context. Hence why I'm curious about what he meant by it, rather than my assumptions of what he could have meant
cannot fathom how in the 21st century there are still people searching for alibis for this slavery argument... will refrain from any possible insults but it is really painful to watch such excuses to be presented in such a 'serious' appearance....
@@taramoon9307 I know - my point was not so much what has been written somewhere in the bronze-age but that in our times anyone tries to tap-dance around to defend it without feeling ashamed
I can't believe not one comment mentions there's more slaves now than any time in history and they are not doing it because they are treated good are they never mind as long as you ignore it and support it
@@davidevans3223 what's your point? there is nowhere a comment that implicitly denies that nor that anyone ignores or supports it - the issue is here whether the Bible sanctions it... a bit off the track
It does worse than support it; it treats it as something obviously accepted, so mundane that _whether_ one should hold slaves isn't even a topic... just how to not abuse them too much and how to trick them into making a temporary slavery permanent.
Any attempt to ever justify slavery is beyond reprehensible but it's made even worse when they jump around the point of beating and go back to other softer topics to try to steer the conversation away from that uncomfortable thing they obviously know is wrong.
Not one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not keep slaves, or own another person as property." But having another God, working on the Sabbath, or taking God's name in vain are clearly condemned.
Cosmic Skeptic, I love, so much, that you're posting these! Thankyou. They really show, though I've known it since I subbed when you were about17, what a natural master you are at this. I said it then, and I still feel, you will be one of the world's top speakers. I would say go into government to 'fix' the industrial farm/dairy problem, but no, we need global reform! One country isn't enough. And, to get through to people who won't accept that it is the same cruelty whether it is a pig or a dog, here in the US, and in Mexico, back in the 70s, as a young teen, I had to go to stockyards and stables, where just like beef, it was horses. At that time, we were 'documenting' it, to fill in reports. I didn't even know to call myself an activist, our group was run by Navy veteren who owned a riding stable. I was, at first, just there to work at the stable. He was 23 yrs my senior, led to a lot of changes for me. But, the horrors for the animals was the same as for our other food animals. It was like Black Beauty, but in our time. I assume still going on. Ach , sorry. I rant as usual. Damn, just got the rest of the book I've been struggling with! Ooh, I'm gonna need help. Love you, thankyou,👍😘🥰💝✌
Sexual slavery. That's new. Yikes. "Context". Always "context". The word of God should be applicable throughout history, not just in a certain context.
@@Andre_XX what do you think made the free world before Christianity human sacrifices cannibalism and slavery were the norm all over the world even the Romans fed people to lion's until they become Christians whether you believe it's a coincidence or not doesnt change the fact many advanced civilisations didn't make and we should all be greatful for the bible we could have China committing north Korea a slave nation both atheist USSR before they went back to Christianity or join the lefty religons veganisum or infinite gender theory nutters both deny science and are willing to use force for there beliefs on everyone else. When Christian inspired civilisation is the only example of a successful civilization why do so many want to change the free world into there own dictatorship
@@davidevans3223 Christian "civilisation" - like christian Europe invaded and committed genocide in nearly every corner of the earth over the last 400 years. Go study some history before making claims that your religion is some kind of god-given gift to the world. And I didn't even mention the Spanish Inquisition, Saint Bartholomews Day Massacre, the Siege of Minerve or the Apartheid Regime in South Africa, or Donald Trump and his merry band of right-wing nutter and their attempts at dictatorship. I guess you want to turn everybody into little closes of yourself. Forget it, buddy. It ain't gonna happen.
Imagine being so monumentally detached from reality and basic decency, that you actually need to debate whether or not abusing humans is generally a bad idea.
@@johndeoliveira8476 The bible is clear that this deity has repeatedly ordered or endorsed slavery, rape, and genocide. The only confusion is from apologists who simply can't admit the truth.
@@GuitarDog_atx The bible does not regulate slavery when thinking of humans trafficking and completely different from you were socialised to believe about slavery in the bible. The word slave and servant in Hebrew means Ebed but it can mean both. The slavery in the bible is indentured servitude what's actually voluntary so people who owe debt and they can't pay their debt they see to work their debt off that isn’t evil The bible has a system whereby even these people are voluntarily involved in a indentured servitude are to be set free very 7 years.
@@GuitarDog_atx I bet you haven’t even read the book to understand the context but here’s some passage proving that Hebrew did not regulate human trafficking the one you’re socialised to believe leviticus 25:39-40 the issue of poverty was one of the reasons that people sold themselves as servants. Leviticus 25:47-54 explains how slavery can free themselves from debt and poverty and their family Deuteronomy 24:7 there is a general prohibition against slavery of anyone and in the second, a specific order against slavery of Israelites. Exodus 21:16 forced slavery is straight death. Exodus 20:16 NLT “You must not testify falsely against your neighbor. I can go on and on
“It’s difficult to understand what is going on here.” No, in fact, it’s not difficult at all, and quite clearly morally reprehensible. What’s difficult to understand is how anyone could defend or support it.
There seem to be fairly well trodden arguments that don't defend or support the morally reprehensible statements found in the OT. Unfortunately, they require atheists to give up their Sunday school theology.
@@davidlewis5737 - Thanks for the ad hom, particularly since you really don’t know anything about my (or most probably any atheist’s) theology. I’m not as concerned with the morally reprehensible _statements_ in religious texts as the morally reprehensible _concepts_ .What I don’t like about “Sunday School theology” is that you asshats think it’s morally _acceptable_ to teach it to children, when it clearly is not.
@@altosack Most atheist are like Boris Johnson; a little Kippling here, a little high school latin there - are suddenly well rounded intellectuals. Presumably biblical concepts ride on biblical statements. Or do you just "see" concepts without reading?
@@davidlewis5737 -- If you have nothing to say other than vague slurs, then don't. Commenters like you and others who just want to take pot shots and who do not engage in good faith, are why I really seldom post TH-cam comments. Good day.
@@kingkamaro9442 The Bible's rules for slavery have nothing to do with whether or not you buy into the existence of the Christian God. It's just another reason (among very many) that the Bible is, on the whole, a pretty terrible book.
@@kingkamaro9442 You don't know that I'm a Liberal, or a moral relativist. What are you even talking about? I also don't need to prove God doesn't exist. I just don't believe he does exist. I can't disprove the existence of goblins, either. I still don't believe in goblins. Get the picture?
@@kingkamaro9442 You do realise that the burden of proof lies with those making the positve claim dont you.? Athiesm is not necessarily the claim that god does not exist , but rather that they are unconvinced by the evidence provided saying he does To use a courtroom analogy . You the prosecution accuse god of of being guilty of Existing I the jury find him not guilty of existing ( because of lack of evidence) that DOES NOT MEAN I definitely know he is INNOCENT of existing. Merely that you have not provided enough evidence to prove him guilty ,,,, ,,, I find god not guilty of , existing Let me ask you. Do you lose any sleep at night worrying what If the Buddhist god is the real one ? No , how about islam or hinduism ? Maybe those that believed in Thor , Zeus mithrah , or any of the thousands of other gods got it right 🤔🤔 But hey let's just assume that the god with the talking snake is indeed the correct one . There are thousands of denominations of christianity and each one has its own particular interpretation of gods wishes and morality and that all the other denominations and interpretations have got it wrong . Many believe that unless you are in their specific denomination you are doomed to hell ( that means you ) You see you and me both are atheists to all these thousands of other gods , I just go one god further 😜
Slavery is completely indefensible whether or not the slaves are beaten. You can treat your slaves like family, feed and clothe them the way you feed and clothe yourself, and it is still completely immoral.
If it's voluntary slave labor to pay a debt then you don't own that person and you don't get to beat them. They were volunteering, key word - "volunteer". If someone can't pay for a meal and voluntarily cleans dishes as slave labor to pay the debt you don't get to beat the person. They're helping you get what you want voluntarily instead of running away. How does a man of God justify to himself the beating of volunteers that are paying debts as an act of integrity? Crazy.
Coercion is not volunteering. Debt slavery was often a case of a father dying and his children being sold as slaves to pay his debts. 2 Kings 4 describes such a scenario in the Bible itself.
@@erimgard3128 Eww, that's even worse morally. By definition that wouldn't be volunteering, that's forced. Strange that they use the word volunteer if that's the case.
No, sorry, people making a career of accusing the rest of the world of moral relativism simply don't get to play the ''historical-context'' card. People pounding on the fact that there's a an omnipotent, omniscient creator and for him thousands of years are a blink of an eyes simply have no right to do that. People who hold that book to be sacred and infallible cannot move the post when confronted with the ambiguity of said book. Christianity has been sitting on slavery for centuries, how handy would have been to have a commandment against that crime instead of the inane first 4.
"If youbeat him, but he can walk in a day or two..." Imagine you are that slave. Dude beat you. Baaadly. So now the testing people are there./ To see if you can walk after 2 days. Do you...cooperatively demonstrate you can walk? To...save the dude who "owns" and who beat you from punishment? Okay, that's a fun thought. But let's be realistic. He's a beater. He'll get punished by his peers. And he still owns you.
Apologists who can’t agree, without equivocation, that slavery and the owning of people as property is immoral and reprehensible, would eventually find a way to justify any atrocity as long as they thought their god condoned it.
There is always some new pseudo-science crap waiting to be the next big thing. It will take a major change in the human condition before this disappears.
@@Bhoddisatva That change would likely be a form of new hard facts released rapidly-too hard or illogical to make claims with fantasy but not released too quick for the human mind to come to grasp with. These hard facts would have to be so overwhelming that believing in such dieties would be even more laughable than believing in Santa Clause as a grown adult present day. Before I thought that was impossible but, someone told me about the rise of internet and phones is a similar concept. The industrial age or information age-amazing technological advances we made that can not be logically debunked by a make-believe book. For example, no major religious myth went around debunking the existence of the phones, the internet or new cars etc. But that being said, we'd still have small cults forming that will grab our attention, for example Flat Earthers, despite the abundant amount of facts and proofs explaining a hard fact.
Trying to excuse it by saying "it's not being specific, it's setting a general rule" is wholly disingenuous. First of all, it's using very specific language and giving specific examples. To turn around and claim that it's actually being broad instead is ridiculous. Furthermore, it's ignoring the idea that it's ok to beat them at all, and more importantly, he's refusing to acknowledge the term "property." Someone who's a willful servant is NOT someone else's property; that's what a SLAVE is.
Professor Hector Avalos' book Slavery, Abolitionism and the Ethics of Biblical Scholarship is an excellent resource on this topic. Every instance of slavery in the bible is critically analyzed in this book.
Thanks for sharing the link to Jonathan’s explanation. Ironically his explanation further serves to highlight how immoral these passages are and his defence of them is disturbing. Dude. Just say that is not good and you cannot reconcile it with any reasonable moral code. That would display humility and a moral compass rather than being a pathetic apologist.
The beating of a slave is not the issue. Slavery itself is wrong. If a god, any god, opposes something so awful, and doesn’t make that clear in their scripture, then that god is ethically bankrupt.
The last line is so no condescending: "I agree it's difficult to understand", implying, by his behavior and never yielding, that it takes special people with special abilities to understand it, which you're not part of.
It's really not that difficult to understand. The Bible condones genocide and rape, sexual slavery and abuse of minors. It is right there on the pages in black on white.
Let's put all this sophistry aside shall we. Leviticus 25 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." So bad news if you enslaved and you aren't an Israelite!!!
Exactly, in the bible there is indentured servitude that is not permanent. But there is *also* permanent slavery from surrounding nations. Apologists always deflect from the permanent slavery that may be bequeathed. They love to pretend only indentured servitude is in their holy book. When permanent slavery is also explicitly mentioned
The Christian here has no understanding of slavery in the ANE and ancient Israel. It is a well known fact among scholars of slavery that the ANE (including Israel), ancient Greece and Rome, and antebellum America were among the few places in history where chattel slavery was practiced. While debt slavery certainly was practiced in Israel and ancient Greece and Rome, it was not alone. Slaves were also prisoners of war, bought in the open market, and born into slavery. All these forms of slavery are clearly referenced in the Bible. It is time to stop feigning otherwise.
“I don’t think it’s always wrong to kill innocent people.” Most people wouldn’t think it’s ALWAYS wrong, but it is wrong when your only reason is the voice in your head told you to.
Surely it’s only “difficult to understand” what’s going on in that text if you simply accept that your existing understanding of the text doesn’t align with the reality of what it says. If you take it for what it says, even with a generous benefit of the doubt, you must just conclude that the author of the bible is simply immoral by todays standards. You can make any argument you want from there, but the bible clearly promotes many things that are today considered immoral but at least large parts of society. So we can either argue from there that we are now mortally superior to the authors of the bible, or we are being too sensitive to slavery, genocide and sexual abuse.
If that book can tell you not to eat shellfish and not wear cloths made from two fabrics then it sure can tell you not to own people as property or beat them to near death.
McLatchie..... I struggle with some of the texts... Well move on, drop it, it's clearly not the word of a god.. Put it in the context of what it clearly is.. The words of primitive warring ancient tribes! Humanity can and has done better.. So could any reasonably intelligent child. .. But not McLatchie!
“yeah but it was more of just paying off your debt then anything else” OOOOOH NOW I SEE so as long as the “occupants” eventually pay off their debt, it’s perfectly normal to beat/worked them like an animal 👍 what great context
I often wonder if any of these Christians realize exactly how badly you can beat someone without them losing an eye or a tooth and especially how badly you can beat them without them dying?
They just need to think of Jesus, he was tortured, but he kept his 2 eyes, and all of his teeth and he could even walk after that. so, how many slaves were beaten the same or harder than that with no punishment to the owner?
Any "contract" that allows you to hit someone who doesn't want to be hit (i.e., not sports or consensual sex play, no kink shaming here) is abhorrent. No matter how "minor" the hit.
I consider it a good thing that he was honest enough to concede, at the end, the utter unfixability of those verses. But man! The cognitive dissonance can be quite baffling in some of these conversations.
The most common form of defending the Bible is "Well in their context it was different" well if that's the case then it's not exactly something we should cherry pick to follow now is it?
Occasionally they use the "that's a mistranslation" card... then conveniently ignore the fact that there are no original documents available to see if it is a mistranslation.
Alex exposes the moral bankruptcy of the Biblical inerrancy position here. But another telling point is that the passages in Exodus describing slavery explicitly distinguish between debt and chattel slaves. They are entirely consistent with other contemporary legal codes in the region. Some people may resort to paying debts through a period of servitude - either themselves, or by proxy, contracting their wife or children into servitude for an agreed period. This is what is described in Leviticus 39-43. But to make the distinction crystal clear, Leviticus 44 - 46 spells out that these conditions are to be applied to fellow Hebrews. Fellow Hebrews cannot be treated as chattel slaves. Rather, chattel slaves, may be taken from other tribes, treated with much harsher discipline, and held in slavery "for life". The distinction could not be clearer.
According to exodus 21 you can beat them until they can’t stand up but you just can’t permanently damage them which is why the example of the eye was given.
“If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property. - Exodus 21:20-21 “If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth. - Exodus 21:26-27 (These go together.) The idea that someone can correct someone with a rod, causing permanent damage without losing their slave and freeing them of their debt/duty isn't being presented as an option here. Let alone repeatedly. The idea of punishment regarding the rod and taking of a life is that now there must be a punishment towards the master. This is meant as a protection for slaves.
The text is only difficult if you’re trying to square it with a belief that God is omni benevolent and the author of morality. Otherwise, its crystal clear.
Since this debate took place, Jonathan McLatchie has created a video with some subsequent views on the apparent sexual slavery in Numbers 31. See here: th-cam.com/video/fgIcQqz7ZSE/w-d-xo.html
Thanks.
Alex is the love child of Hugh grant and Christopher hitchens
I am impressed with your integrity to make this available and obvious
I watched it. It isexactly what i commented yesterday. Sex slavery was never mentioned. It's assumption and speculation. These girls could be their wifes.
The problematic part is after that. God orders some of these girls to be sacrificed for him. They are slaugtered with the animals as a gift for god.
@@Yavor-Karapetrov "These girls could be their wives."
Look at it from the girls' perspective. Strangers come to their lands, they have some peaceful interactions, one of the strangers married their king s daughter and then one day they just attack. They kill their fathers, mothers, brothers and older sisters. Now they are forced to marry the men who killed their family and friends and deuteronomy is pretty clear that women are little more than property, with no right to divorce or even refuse their 'husbands' sex. How is this not sexual slavery?
Everyone: Slavery is bad
Christians: Yes it's bad, but can we at least discuss the context in which beating a slave could be permissible?
Yes christians should have done something about slavery except just talking about it.
Wait they did, snowflakes.
@@CJFCarlsson That's cute
@@M0skit007 You are welcome.
@@CJFCarlsson _"Wait they did, snowflakes."_
no they did not, Sam Harris ripped this silly argument apart by saying if there was a period in time where every single people in a society was christian then every action good or bad or neutral or whatever in that era by definition was made by christians but if this is the case then hundreds of years later singling out one specific action saying "this action was made by christians" loses every meaning
saying that "modern science was developed by christians in the late medieval era" or "slavery was abolished by christians" make no sense whatsoever
@@CJFCarlsson you do realize that the heavily christian american south used the bible to defend slavery right? But i wouldn't expect a conservative to know history
Christians scroll to the bottom of the Bible, click "I agree", and then are blindsided by simple questions about what they agreed to.
Have you watch DarkMatter2525's Power Corrupts series? Episode 18 talks exactly about that
Amazing analogy
😆 Brilliant
It’s literally like their moral fiber is made of silly putty! Ask me how I know? OK I’ll tell you. I was brought up in a racist, fundamentalist, Christian-rationalizes-anything rural Merica. “Right” to them is whatever they can manipulate the Bible word salad to mean. It’s akin to Islamic or any other kind of fundamentalism if you can justify any harm. Disgusting but just watch a Tucker Carlson do it all the time.
Great analogy
The moment anybody starts to try to defend slavery in any way, I completely stop to take them seriously.
I've had Christians pivot to actually DEFENDING slavery outright when you prove to them convincingly that the bible condones it.
I feel sorry for them.
Why?
@@nanashi2146 Why do I feel sorry for somebody who defends slavery? Seriously?
@@AtlasBookkeeping I wasn't speaking to you
what I love about Alex is that his style of debates, while grounded upon reason and logic, is still emotional and engaging.
Still ironic when you both support slavery today the reason millions more than any other time In history stay slaves isn't because they are treated so well I know when I watch the world cup thousands of slaves died and I'll be supporting it as in many other ways if you don't protest you clearly accept it ask yourself how can Christians stop you using slaves
@@davidevans3223 Please repeat, but this time take care to articulate yourself, making it clear not just what you are saying, but who you are directing it at. Making full use of punctuation would also help. Thank you.
Alex is GENIUS. His debating technique is grounded in logic and reason, he remains calm always and his content is always emotional and usually riveting.
@@shannaveganamcinnis-hurd405 what about the slaves TODAY that are morally acceptable they are clearly to afraid to try escaping and you must know many are killed it's funny you believe the bible condones slavery when it's what people have always done and still do today it's almost impossible for you to have not benefited from real slaves including kid's
@@davidevans3223 sorry, is your argument that God and the bible are as evil as humans so nobody can complain?....That's a silly argument and criticising those who live in countries in which slavery has been illegal for years for slave labour in other countries is absurd, we have no control over that you twisted little man and no one here is condoning it, well, with the exception of you, apparently?
The elephant in the room here is that discussion is even taking place. It would not take place if there was a commandment that said "you shall not have slaves", in that list of 10 things that God doesn't want you to do, together with things like, you know, you shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not covet your neighbor’s stuff, etc...
Even if it weren't there, just anywhere in the bible have a clear condemnation of slaves with no room for confusion, and not have dozens more passages saying "make sure this is how you keep slaves". Instead we have Jesus telling slaves to obey their masters.
That's not true at all there's more slaves now than any time in history the free world is Christian the the free world was created by by Christian inspired morals China committing genocide north Korea a slave nation both atheist USSR before they went back to Christianity mass genocide be greatful you were born in a free country created by Christians
@@davidevans3223 ... Mass genocide and ethics seem to be independent of religion. You have countries in Europe that are among the most atheist ones in the world and where the standard of living and happiness are also the highest in the world. You have atrocities made in the name of the Christina God, from the inquisition to the virtual elimination of the indigenous people in America. Also, when you talk about the moral inspired by the Bible... it is the other way around. Our moral inspires our interpretation of the bible. The scripturas are so unclear, ambiguous, and even contradictory, that if we want to make a logical sense of them we NEED to give it our own interpretation and even cherry-pick. Where do the ethics and values that we use to interpret the Bible come from? From the Bible? I don't think so...
@@adb012 firstly more of Europe was controlled by the Romans fed people to lion's kept slaves etc until the become Christians even the pagans believe in human sacrifices like all over the world for 10s of thousands of year's no social progress until the bible you can believe it's a coincidence I know it's divinely inspired those so called atheist in Europe have there good life from Christians it's just a fact also don't believe everything you read if you have low expectations you'll be happy with what you have look at the suicide rate and compare to a poor African country happiness isn't something they can understand it's more based on wealth
@@davidevans3223 ... When you have time, check Buddhism. It is possibly the most tolerant and peaceful religion in the world, it is not based in the Bible (old or new testament) or influenced by it in any way, it precedes the birth of Christ by more than 500 years, never a war was fought in the name of Buddhism, never people was assimilated, exterminated or enslaved in the name of Buddhism, and.... what else? There was one more thing... let me remind it... Oh yes! It is an atheistic religion!!!
I must admit, it took courage for that guy to say “I don’t have an answer to that question”. Yet my respect is lost when he continues to defend a book that is claimed to be a moral guide whilst containing such morally bankrupt advice
He starts by saying the Bible is our guide to morality, and ends by saying that the Bible has passages so morally confusing that he, a scholar of those texts, doesn't know why they say what they say. If he can spend 20+ years studying Biblical "morality" and still gets stumped by sexual slavery being COMMANDED BY GOD just 4 books in, why would I even bother reading on past that point? He can read it and call it "mysterious," I can read it and say it's disgusting and morally bankrupt, and we're left agreeing that the Bible doesn't give us very clear moral advice.
@@aaronlawrence6350 sexual slavery isn't permitted by God in numbers 31 I'm very disappointed that this Christian who's debating someone who's obviously very intellectually smart clearly hadn't read or understood the context of the passage being brought up "Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16 “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord’s people. 17 So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. 19 basically balaam sent a bunch of women over to Israel to seduce them into committing idolatry with them, God then got rid of the Israelite who slept with them (24 000) and kept the ones who haven't slept with Israelite (virgins) BTW these women were adopted into Israel not by sexual slavery or force
@@upzyys9286 Oh, that makes it all perfectly OK then.
@@joshuakohlmann9731 it makes it clear there's no sex slavery involved
@@upzyys9286 Do you not even shudder slightly at your own use of the phrase "got rid of"?
That felt like a public flogging. It is truly amazing to watch educated and articulate men and women try and defend the contradictions, hypocrites and atrocities of the Bible. Like there is ever a reasonable justification for Rape, slavery and genocide.
But but muh context tho
@@taramoon9307 Yeah, Con Text lol
@@taramoon9307 it's not about context clearly the bible isn't factually accurate but it's what inspired the morals that made the free world where slavery is actually ilegal and enforced by law there's more slaves now than any time in history and you support them when you shop etc you don't care they are forced or why would they stay.
Many are sex slaves many are kid's some US company's were fighting for the right's to use Chinese slaves who are also being exterminated I admit I support them do you or do you prefer ignorance
@@davidevans3223 The Bible is definitely *not* "what inspired the morals that made the free world where slavery is illegal", it was used by slave trader to justify slave trade and fought during the enlightenment by people that faced public shaming and persecution because of the bible. The strongest driver of European enlightenment, Baruch Spinoza, was excommunicated, cursed and persecuted in a horrible way by his orthodox Jewish community, and the same is true for many Catholics and Protestant philosophers.
@@bobon123 Europe was controlled by Romans who were advanced but kept slaves it wasn't morally wrong back then no point in arguing it wasn't since the biggining of man nothing to do with Christianity but great Britain a fully Christian country went around the world destroying the international slave trader's at that point in history it because morally unacceptable just a 10s of thousands of year's it was morally right. Many advanced civilisations are gone but human sacrifices cannibalism and slavery were the norm all over the world the free world wouldn't exist without the bible that's not a debate it's a fact whether you believe in God isn't relevant look at China committing genocide north Korea a slave nation both atheist USSR before they went back to Christianity.
The Romans become Christians and stopped being so evil same around the world of course atheist and other religons still have slavery and it's morally acceptable there Indian has millions all Muslim country's and the atheist ones
What makes you believe your opinion which is all morals are is right and just happens to be a coincidence it's from a Christian background thats insane look at the new atheists cults veganisum or infinite gender theory nutters both deny science both claim moral justification for forcing there beliefs on everyone else.
You can stay in denile it's fine but someone will always want to dictate what they believe is right people want to feel good about themselves and joining a cult has always happend even with atheists but some how Christianity made the free world dispite all the evil people using it for there own advantage the fact is there isn't any evidence the free world could exist without Christianity you can see if you look today in the west or around the world sure it's not perfect we are far from perfect
Jonathan knows that he's wrong. If he thought he was right, he would not dance around the fact that you're allowed to beat your endentured servants as long as they don't suffer permanent bodily harm.
There's more slaves now than any time in history do you really believe the slaves you use are kept by nice means
I don't like Alex because he's vegan.
@@romanski5811 people can't help it people want to feel good about themselves and joining a cult has always been a way for people to feel superior to other's atheists have to invent new one's
@@davidevans3223
Is this your way of justifying belief in an immoral god?
What “slaves” have I been permitted to beat? None.
@@romanski5811 Makes you think what kind of person someone is when they don't like someone for being against animal abuse.
Defending slavery, rape, genocide, and beating people isn't an attractive argument for an all benevolent God.
The moment the guy said: "I'm not convinced that k- innocent ppl is always wrong", I'm out. These apologists should keep their career safe until religion fall apart. Disgusting.
Don't forget incest
Anyone who claims the Bible doesn’t condone slavery either hasn’t read the Bible, or is doing a level of mental gymnastics that should be competed at the Olympics
Don't forget that many Christians haven't actually read the Bible, they only know what they have been told it says ( you know, the "nice" bits). And the ones that have read it appear to use it as a menu instead of a book.
It makes me sad that otherwise decent human beings will defend slavery in order to preserve their religious belief.
Because it's not the same as the modern slave system,
Slavery in the bible was the same as servitude
@@dylanchristman978 Have you watched this video? If so, why do you still hold that belief?
@@UrukEngineer I read the bible
@@UrukEngineer Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
Amos 2:6 KJV
This is God against the idea of selling others for coin
@@dylanchristman978 Tell me Dylan, do you think the bible is like some kind of "Chinese buffet" were you get to pick out the parts you like but just disregard the parts you don't ??? I too _"read my bible"_ indeed its BECAUSE I read my bible that I'm an atheist, I think it was Mark Twain that said......
_"It ain’t the parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand_"
Alex is so polite. He does everything he can to avoid saying the book in question is littered with ancient cultural norms that are not acceptable in this day and age. BS in other words.
It's amazing how thoroughly a religion can ruin someone's moral compass. This guy was on stage saying that owning slaves and beating them is completely fine as long as the bodily harm "isn't permanent". Also saying that sex slavery and genocide, while they seem morally repugnant, are fine if his dictator said they are fine, even when it makes no moral or logical sense. This is how morally bankrupt one has to be to defend this dumpster fire of a book.
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
To add- One of infinite way I see it is, there's always been dictators that would do the things God does in the Bible without hesitation. There's a mini dictator in all of us in a way. But also a slave/ servant attitude.
If that means believers are chosen and other people are put to death, so be it- Subconsciously however. Better to side with a god then fellow man and be damned... (I'm ex Christian though, I didn't think like that, I was a near perfect role model blind faith Xian in mind and body so that's why I changed- why should blind faith be of any value to a good god lol)
He's an apologist, he has an agenda
@@bartbannister394 im sorry people are in debt and try to fix their debts
@@dylanchristman978 Are you trying to say that if you owe someone money it's OK to enslave them?
That last bit: DO find texts that you read containing horrific 'commands' reprehensible. When you read a page of the bible and find both glaring inconsistencies and dictates that trouble you to your core - see it for what it is. If that shakes your faith to the fucking floor, so be it. If you can rebuild, and that foundation stands then good for you,
If not, welcome to reality.
I will never understand how people can defend the most immoral things just because it's in the bible.
I do.
I didn't take the situations seriously. I would blow off words like "genocide" and discount the reality of little girls seeing their families slaughtered before they are viciously sexually attacked.
A simple though would go through my mind "times were different back then" and that thought would be followed with a self-righteous thought of "this other person doesn't have the Holy Spirit, so they don't see the light".
With those 2 simple thoughts, I was able to easily justify things like Numbers 31.
Because they have to lie to try to justify their delusions.
They think it is their ticket to heaven.
Crazy to see atheist act like they have the morality height ground when they have no ground for morality
@@kyloooooo our ground for morality comes from within ourselves.
As soon as they say there's a context for slavery, they have already lost
When Dr. Jonathan McLatchie answered, "There is a form of discipline in slavery, yeah.", I have to wince. I still can't figure out how some people get a PhD, but I guess in the social sciences you kind of make it up as you go along.
Got a Ph.d at a relgious college. So he now shills for the cause. He's awful. He's been exposed so many times.
@@jpgduff Once you get that degree what in life do you do when you find out it's a shit degree? He should have when into hair addressing or carpentry
Alex calmly held his feet to the fire and he was befuddled. I love when a Christian is forced to contend with the immorality found in his "sacred" doctrine.
The Bible is a book painfully of it's time.
same with the quran
Funny how they never explain why a book inspired by an eternal being who exists outside of time wrote a book that is painfully stuck in the past. If you (a sinful flawed person) wrote a book for that society you would probably write the most egalitarian document ever conceived, outlawing rape, child abuse, torture, slavery and condemning slavery and corruption. Anyone here could write a better set of ethics than the bible. Yet this perfect being didnt even bother to include outlawing violence against literally half of all people.
When an apologist gets cornered they inevitably come out with some variation of the "Who are you to question God" argument, which is a sign that they are not only losing the intellectual battle in front of them but are also getting hammered by their own cognitive dissonance over their defense of the indefensible.
That is their ultimate moral axiom, which is why religions attempt to justify insane behaviors.
Who are you to claim slavery is bad there's more slaves now than any time in history you support them like everyone in the west you can't play ignorant do you believe they work many to the death by peaceful means
@@taramoon9307 what like you using a device most likely involved in slavery or certainly abuse one of many things you do to condemn slavery while actively supporting it there's more slaves now than any time in history you support by now careing that's kind of how it work's
@@davidevans3223 umm...maybe? Not in proportion to the general population though, and it's certainly not considered normal to the point where a holy book would make instructions on how to treat one. Also, the fact that it still exists doesn't make it good. Or are you implying otherwise?
@@alextrigger8199 slavery is evil and should never be tolerated but look at the left attacking statues but will happily travel to Dubai where thousands of slaves die to keep building new hotel's for the left to enjoy clearly not only them but the fact nobody cares about how their goods are acquired proves that slavery is socially acceptable today just a fact law's are in place to some degree for no other reason but to look good but again historically war's happened there was 2 options kill the enerny or use them the fact you believe Christians had the power to force there belief on the world shows ignorance there was no way Romans etc would give up slaves because a few Christian's tell them to treating them better was probably pushing it like someone telling you how to treat you dog..
Look at evolution we are here because countless others were killed all the way to modern humans genocide is part of evolution to try and see the world 2000 years ago threw your eyes is insane one day people will look back at you and see how barbaric and primative you are there's never been no way slavery rape are still normal people dying from starvation when the.uk alone bins more high quality food then needed to feed all those that will die this year how are you able to judge anyone 2000 years ago without judging yourself.
Christian inspired morals made the free world before that it was pure evil the fact it was spread by the last of countless empire's was human nature not God's will it's what would have happened anyway and we could all by Muslims living in the dark as slaves unable think freely as the Qur'an demands
Does the bible support slavery? Yes.
That was easy. Next question?
He just doesn’t address the ‘property’ idea at all and still pretends it’s voluntary servitude
And even the temporary debt-based slavery was often involuntary. You could be sold off to pay a family debt.
"I'll defend slavery, but I won't defend sexual slavery. Every quack has his limits."
A couple of points. Have you ever watched someone be beaten in real life? I have seen people beaten and it is traumatic, even if they limp away immediately afterwards. Imagine what a beating would look like that took 24 hours to walk again. I'd like to have a full length video of that played prior to each defense of this.
Obviously, you'd to to prison just for Possession of the tapes, but imagine the complete and utter horror of being rapped as a child by the man that you watched murder your parents!!!
If your God were real, I'd volunteer for eternal damnation to protest him. Thanks God, he is fictional.
"Obviously, you'd to to prison just for Possession of the tapes..."
Possesion of these kinds of tapes is not illegal or at least in many countries it is not.
I agree on your actual points thou.
@@RanEncounter thou shall not disagree
@@RanEncounter if this video was legal, I wouldn't want to live there.
@@MelFinehout Where are you from? Making those kinds of videos are obviously wrong in almost all countries, possession is not.
@@RanEncounter USA
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Heck to the frickin' yes, dawg.
Look at us talking about past atrocities to our own people... One day animal industry will add to that debates. No injustice last forever
That's just your opinion animal's are not the same the fact there's more slaves now than any time in history and you care more about chickens is sad you do support slavery you can't be that ignorant
@@davidevans3223 yes there is trillion more slaves than before only changed species
@@OnesFan1 there's more human slaves TODAY than any other time In history I think we can agree 1 human is worth infinite number of animal's even vegans agree otherwise you certainly wouldn't have kid's that will result in more animals killed forever or you'd calculate how many billions you're willing to have killed for your food before stopping as eating meat alone kills less animals than eating bread.
Of course you could admit that NOT all animals are the same still probably be about even
@@OnesFan1 do you really believe history will look at you as progressive it's insane not eating avocados and almond milk or use Palm oil would be far better than not eating meat toy literally pay for extinction of rare species when you could in the U.K. eat grass fed carbon neutral cow's that use land unsuitable for anything but grazing never mind I suppose Hitler belived he was progressive to history won't see it your way
@@davidevans3223 i don't know what avocados or almond milks are you talking about, I only eat what my 900$ salary in Japan give me, since you thing that's the average vegan person that is because you are a privilege person that never had to eat only potatoes, rice and lentils 1 meal a day. Society will see in the future the ATROCITIES that we do to other animals and humanize them, the same way we dehumanised our own species only 200 years ago and still doing to this that in some places. We can humanize the other animals the same way we can dehumanise animals who we can reproduce, talk the same language and still wasn't enought to consider them as equal. The human case isn't fixed and it will not until we stop discrimination starting from the animals.
This is unfortunately where many debates go. A justification from man’s perspective
These positions are irrelevant and distracting.
The question should be; Can an all knowing objectively moral god condone some of his children own some of his other children?
It doesn’t matter how you justify it.
The answer is no.
An infinite objective god can’t be subjective.
Only man can.
It’s intensely frustrating to see a person justify the most blatant immorality because they need to defend an ancient book written by ignoramuses.
i love this guy his debates are so interesting
The six day creation, flood, etc are all literally true. But this bit where slavery, genocide, rape, murder etc is condoned, has to be read within its "context".
I even find it funny that the main take-home messages in the bible that even the most moderate Christian believes in (i.e. that God exists, or that Jesus was resurrected) are assumed to be literally true, and not simply fanciful stories told in the context of the Bronze Age to try to explain the world and keep people in line, and then all the 'problematic' things are clearly just parables or out of context.
Honestly, Alex didn't even need to show off his skills here. The text is so clear...
8:00 at this moment I really want him to say "throw hands up to the sky and say Hasa Diga Eebowai"
wow, watch him squirm and wriggle and still try to justify slavery
Maybe I just haven't thought about it hard enough, but I'm confused by you both agreeing that "it's not always wrong to kill innocent people"...
I'd be interested in hearing you give an explanation of that view! Unless it's just something as simple as "if you had to kill one innocent to save 10,000 then it's justified". In which case, I agree. It just sounded like a different context here.
Yeah that too caught my attention! Am I missing something? Yeah maybe your explanation is what they meant
Yeah that threw me off
I think you're right, at least for Alex's perspective. That he doesn't believe it's *always* wrong to kill an innocent person, due to extreme hypotheticals like having to save thousands or millions of others by killing one.
How do you define an " innocent"?
@@chuckybang That's kind of the point really. The definition can vary from person to person, or depending on context. Hence why I'm curious about what he meant by it, rather than my assumptions of what he could have meant
cannot fathom how in the 21st century there are still people searching for alibis for this slavery argument... will refrain from any possible insults but it is really painful to watch such excuses to be presented in such a 'serious' appearance....
My thoughts exactly
Check out the Talmud its even worse
@@taramoon9307 I know - my point was not so much what has been written somewhere in the bronze-age but that in our times anyone tries to tap-dance around to defend it without feeling ashamed
I can't believe not one comment mentions there's more slaves now than any time in history and they are not doing it because they are treated good are they never mind as long as you ignore it and support it
@@davidevans3223 what's your point? there is nowhere a comment that implicitly denies that nor that anyone ignores or supports it - the issue is here whether the Bible sanctions it... a bit off the track
It does worse than support it; it treats it as something obviously accepted, so mundane that _whether_ one should hold slaves isn't even a topic... just how to not abuse them too much and how to trick them into making a temporary slavery permanent.
Any attempt to ever justify slavery is beyond reprehensible but it's made even worse when they jump around the point of beating and go back to other softer topics to try to steer the conversation away from that uncomfortable thing they obviously know is wrong.
It's not difficult to understand the text in the Bible. It was written by jealous, violent, sexually frustrated men.
The easiest way to get a Christian to lie is to ask them about slavery in the Bible.
Not one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not keep slaves, or own another person as property." But having another God, working on the Sabbath, or taking God's name in vain are clearly condemned.
Cosmic Skeptic, I love, so much, that you're posting these! Thankyou. They really show, though I've known it since I subbed when you were about17, what a natural master you are at this. I said it then, and I still feel, you will be one of the world's top speakers. I would say go into government to 'fix' the industrial farm/dairy problem, but no, we need global reform! One country isn't enough. And, to get through to people who won't accept that it is the same cruelty whether it is a pig or a dog, here in the US, and in Mexico, back in the 70s, as a young teen, I had to go to stockyards and stables, where just like beef, it was horses. At that time, we were 'documenting' it, to fill in reports. I didn't even know to call myself an activist, our group was run by Navy veteren who owned a riding stable. I was, at first, just there to work at the stable. He was 23 yrs my senior, led to a lot of changes for me. But, the horrors for the animals was the same as for our other food animals. It was like Black Beauty, but in our time. I assume still going on. Ach , sorry. I rant as usual. Damn, just got the rest of the book I've been struggling with! Ooh, I'm gonna need help. Love you, thankyou,👍😘🥰💝✌
Sexual slavery. That's new. Yikes.
"Context". Always "context". The word of God should be applicable throughout history, not just in a certain context.
"Context" is just a method to weasel oneself out of a glaringly immoral position.
@@Andre_XX what do you think made the free world before Christianity human sacrifices cannibalism and slavery were the norm all over the world even the Romans fed people to lion's until they become Christians whether you believe it's a coincidence or not doesnt change the fact many advanced civilisations didn't make and we should all be greatful for the bible we could have China committing north Korea a slave nation both atheist USSR before they went back to Christianity or join the lefty religons veganisum or infinite gender theory nutters both deny science and are willing to use force for there beliefs on everyone else.
When Christian inspired civilisation is the only example of a successful civilization why do so many want to change the free world into there own dictatorship
@@davidevans3223 Christian "civilisation" - like christian Europe invaded and committed genocide in nearly every corner of the earth over the last 400 years. Go study some history before making claims that your religion is some kind of god-given gift to the world. And I didn't even mention the Spanish Inquisition, Saint Bartholomews Day Massacre, the Siege of Minerve or the Apartheid Regime in South Africa, or Donald Trump and his merry band of right-wing nutter and their attempts at dictatorship. I guess you want to turn everybody into little closes of yourself. Forget it, buddy. It ain't gonna happen.
really? the intellectual price tag of atheism.
@@davidevans3223 Thou shalt use punctuation marks.
Imagine being so monumentally detached from reality and basic decency, that you actually need to debate whether or not abusing humans is generally a bad idea.
Word however there’s no confusion the bible is clear that human trafficking is immoral and punishable by death
@@johndeoliveira8476 no. Reread Lev 25. It says to buy slaves from the nations around you. That's human trafficking.
@@johndeoliveira8476 The bible is clear that this deity has repeatedly ordered or endorsed slavery, rape, and genocide. The only confusion is from apologists who simply can't admit the truth.
@@GuitarDog_atx The bible does not regulate slavery when thinking of humans trafficking and completely different from you were socialised to believe about slavery in the bible.
The word slave and servant in Hebrew means Ebed but it can mean both.
The slavery in the bible is indentured servitude what's actually voluntary so people who owe debt and they can't pay their debt they see to work their debt off that isn’t evil
The bible has a system whereby even these people are voluntarily involved in a indentured servitude are to be set free very 7 years.
@@GuitarDog_atx I bet you haven’t even read the book to understand the context but here’s some passage proving that Hebrew did not regulate human trafficking the one you’re socialised to believe
leviticus 25:39-40 the issue of poverty was one of the reasons that people sold themselves as servants.
Leviticus 25:47-54 explains how slavery can free themselves from debt and poverty and their family
Deuteronomy 24:7 there is a general prohibition against slavery of anyone and in the second, a specific order against slavery of Israelites.
Exodus 21:16 forced slavery is straight death.
Exodus 20:16 NLT
“You must not testify falsely against your neighbor.
I can go on and on
We need to see you more Alex! More content!
Still blows me away that theists will jump through hoops to try and defend the indefensible. Quite disgusting.
Always making excuses for what the book actually says.Read it word for word.
“It’s difficult to understand what is going on here.”
No, in fact, it’s not difficult at all, and quite clearly morally reprehensible. What’s difficult to understand is how anyone could defend or support it.
There seem to be fairly well trodden arguments that don't defend or support the morally reprehensible statements found in the OT. Unfortunately, they require atheists to give up their Sunday school theology.
@@davidlewis5737 - Thanks for the ad hom, particularly since you really don’t know anything about my (or most probably any atheist’s) theology.
I’m not as concerned with the morally reprehensible _statements_ in religious texts as the morally reprehensible _concepts_ .What I don’t like about “Sunday School theology” is that you asshats think it’s morally _acceptable_ to teach it to children, when it clearly is not.
@@altosack Most atheist are like Boris Johnson; a little Kippling here, a little high school latin there - are suddenly well rounded intellectuals. Presumably biblical concepts ride on biblical statements. Or do you just "see" concepts without reading?
@@davidlewis5737 -- If you have nothing to say other than vague slurs, then don't. Commenters like you and others who just want to take pot shots and who do not engage in good faith, are why I really seldom post TH-cam comments. Good day.
Why cant the Bible just say "No Slavery" Simple!!!
This is what religion brings us. Another wise nice person trying his hardest to defend horrible ideas.
Would you become a christian,if the Bible had condemned the slavery?
@@kingkamaro9442 The Bible's rules for slavery have nothing to do with whether or not you buy into the existence of the Christian God. It's just another reason (among very many) that the Bible is, on the whole, a pretty terrible book.
@@christiananderson4909
As liberal,and a moral relativist,why do you need to prove that God doesn't exist because He doesn't condemn the slavery?
@@kingkamaro9442 You don't know that I'm a Liberal, or a moral relativist. What are you even talking about?
I also don't need to prove God doesn't exist. I just don't believe he does exist. I can't disprove the existence of goblins, either. I still don't believe in goblins. Get the picture?
@@kingkamaro9442 You do realise that the burden of proof lies with those making the positve claim dont you.?
Athiesm is not necessarily the claim that god does not exist , but rather that they are unconvinced by the evidence provided saying he does
To use a courtroom analogy . You the prosecution accuse god of of being guilty of Existing
I the jury find him not guilty of existing ( because of lack of evidence) that DOES NOT MEAN I definitely know he is INNOCENT of existing. Merely that you have not provided enough evidence to prove him guilty ,,,, ,,, I find god not guilty of , existing
Let me ask you. Do you lose any sleep at night worrying what If the Buddhist god is the real one ? No , how about islam or hinduism ? Maybe those that believed in Thor , Zeus mithrah , or any of the thousands of other gods got it right 🤔🤔
But hey let's just assume that the god with the talking snake is indeed the correct one . There are thousands of denominations of christianity and each one has its own particular interpretation of gods wishes and morality and that all the other denominations and interpretations have got it wrong .
Many believe that unless you are in their specific denomination you are doomed to hell ( that means you )
You see you and me both are atheists to all these thousands of other gods , I just go one god further 😜
They call them "Apologetics" for a reason.
Slavery is completely indefensible whether or not the slaves are beaten.
You can treat your slaves like family, feed and clothe them the way you feed and clothe yourself, and it is still completely immoral.
If it's voluntary slave labor to pay a debt then you don't own that person and you don't get to beat them. They were volunteering, key word - "volunteer". If someone can't pay for a meal and voluntarily cleans dishes as slave labor to pay the debt you don't get to beat the person. They're helping you get what you want voluntarily instead of running away. How does a man of God justify to himself the beating of volunteers that are paying debts as an act of integrity? Crazy.
Coercion is not volunteering. Debt slavery was often a case of a father dying and his children being sold as slaves to pay his debts. 2 Kings 4 describes such a scenario in the Bible itself.
@@erimgard3128 Eww, that's even worse morally. By definition that wouldn't be volunteering, that's forced. Strange that they use the word volunteer if that's the case.
No, sorry, people making a career of accusing the rest of the world of moral relativism simply don't get to play the ''historical-context'' card. People pounding on the fact that there's a an omnipotent, omniscient creator and for him thousands of years are a blink of an eyes simply have no right to do that. People who hold that book to be sacred and infallible cannot move the post when confronted with the ambiguity of said book. Christianity has been sitting on slavery for centuries, how handy would have been to have a commandment against that crime instead of the inane first 4.
"If youbeat him, but he can walk in a day or two..."
Imagine you are that slave. Dude beat you. Baaadly.
So now the testing people are there./ To see if you can walk after 2 days.
Do you...cooperatively demonstrate you can walk? To...save the dude who "owns" and who beat you from punishment?
Okay, that's a fun thought. But let's be realistic. He's a beater. He'll get punished by his peers. And he still owns you.
Apologists who can’t agree, without equivocation, that slavery and the owning of people as property is immoral and reprehensible, would eventually find a way to justify any atrocity as long as they thought their god condoned it.
And that’s what makes people like that terrifying.
Being a good Christian should automatically qualify someone as a good person. The problem is that after 2000 years this still isn't the reality.
Imagine what society could be accomplished if we didn’t need to waste intellectual energy debuking 2000+ year old myths.
There is always some new pseudo-science crap waiting to be the next big thing. It will take a major change in the human condition before this disappears.
I have thought that for years. This is a huge waste of time.
@@Bhoddisatva That change would likely be a form of new hard facts released rapidly-too hard or illogical to make claims with fantasy but not released too quick for the human mind to come to grasp with.
These hard facts would have to be so overwhelming that believing in such dieties would be even more laughable than believing in Santa Clause as a grown adult present day.
Before I thought that was impossible but, someone told me about the rise of internet and phones is a similar concept. The industrial age or information age-amazing technological advances we made that can not be logically debunked by a make-believe book.
For example, no major religious myth went around debunking the existence of the phones, the internet or new cars etc.
But that being said, we'd still have small cults forming that will grab our attention, for example Flat Earthers, despite the abundant amount of facts and proofs explaining a hard fact.
Lying for Jesus is just lying
Trying to excuse it by saying "it's not being specific, it's setting a general rule" is wholly disingenuous. First of all, it's using very specific language and giving specific examples. To turn around and claim that it's actually being broad instead is ridiculous. Furthermore, it's ignoring the idea that it's ok to beat them at all, and more importantly, he's refusing to acknowledge the term "property." Someone who's a willful servant is NOT someone else's property; that's what a SLAVE is.
what a waste of perfectly good 10 commandments and not mentioned slavery clearly and precisely
Professor Hector Avalos' book Slavery, Abolitionism and the Ethics of Biblical Scholarship is an excellent resource on this topic. Every instance of slavery in the bible is critically analyzed in this book.
Fair play to you. Your knowledge of the bible, thankfully, illuminates the horrors it contains.
Thanks for sharing the link to Jonathan’s explanation. Ironically his explanation further serves to highlight how immoral these passages are and his defence of them is disturbing. Dude. Just say that is not good and you cannot reconcile it with any reasonable moral code. That would display humility and a moral compass rather than being a pathetic apologist.
The beating of a slave is not the issue. Slavery itself is wrong. If a god, any god, opposes something so awful, and doesn’t make that clear in their scripture, then that god is ethically bankrupt.
The moral axiom of religion is "X is condoned by X deity". So that's why it yields insane results.
The last line is so no condescending: "I agree it's difficult to understand", implying, by his behavior and never yielding, that it takes special people with special abilities to understand it, which you're not part of.
It's really not that difficult to understand. The Bible condones genocide and rape, sexual slavery and abuse of minors. It is right there on the pages in black on white.
Apologists are tricky wrigglers. Nice one Alex. Your well educated and preparedness is refreshing and powerful. Top work as usual!
Let's put all this sophistry aside shall we.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
So bad news if you enslaved and you aren't an Israelite!!!
Exactly, in the bible there is indentured servitude that is not permanent. But there is *also* permanent slavery from surrounding nations. Apologists always deflect from the permanent slavery that may be bequeathed. They love to pretend only indentured servitude is in their holy book. When permanent slavery is also explicitly mentioned
#BoycottMeat and all other animal products of cruelty and exploitation in any way possible!
The Christian here has no understanding of slavery in the ANE and ancient Israel. It is a well known fact among scholars of slavery that the ANE (including Israel), ancient Greece and Rome, and antebellum America were among the few places in history where chattel slavery was practiced. While debt slavery certainly was practiced in Israel and ancient Greece and Rome, it was not alone. Slaves were also prisoners of war, bought in the open market, and born into slavery. All these forms of slavery are clearly referenced in the Bible. It is time to stop feigning otherwise.
we humans has never had so many slaves as we have today
“I don’t think it’s always wrong to kill innocent people.” Most people wouldn’t think it’s ALWAYS wrong, but it is wrong when your only reason is the voice in your head told you to.
Yes. No other answer needed.
Surely it’s only “difficult to understand” what’s going on in that text if you simply accept that your existing understanding of the text doesn’t align with the reality of what it says. If you take it for what it says, even with a generous benefit of the doubt, you must just conclude that the author of the bible is simply immoral by todays standards. You can make any argument you want from there, but the bible clearly promotes many things that are today considered immoral but at least large parts of society. So we can either argue from there that we are now mortally superior to the authors of the bible, or we are being too sensitive to slavery, genocide and sexual abuse.
The young guy was calm and collected while the older one was stuttering and stumbling over himself didn't sound very confident or convincing at all
If that book can tell you not to eat shellfish and not wear cloths made from two fabrics then it sure can tell you not to own people as property or beat them to near death.
Oh Jonathan, don't you think we have seen the NonStampCollector video on Bible slavery?
McLatchie..... I struggle with some of the texts...
Well move on, drop it, it's clearly not the word of a god..
Put it in the context of what it clearly is..
The words of primitive warring ancient tribes!
Humanity can and has done better.. So could any reasonably intelligent child.
.. But not McLatchie!
Yup, that just about covers it.
Yes, it does, it's just an old book written by regular people.
There are still around 25 million people in slavery presently.
Voluntary slavery? Then its not slavery.
Even if it was some sort of indentured servitude.
How the hell does it make it okay for the Boss to beat them so badly they could die????
Yes.... The answer is yes, objectively. I don't understand how this is even a discussion.
I can’t wrap my mind around the justifications people try to give, for the horrendous acts in the Bible.
“yeah but it was more of just paying off your debt then anything else”
OOOOOH NOW I SEE
so as long as the “occupants” eventually pay off their debt, it’s perfectly normal to beat/worked them like an animal 👍
what great context
I often wonder if any of these Christians realize exactly how badly you can beat someone without them losing an eye or a tooth and
especially how badly you can beat them without them dying?
They just need to think of Jesus, he was tortured, but he kept his 2 eyes, and all of his teeth and he could even walk after that. so, how many slaves were beaten the same or harder than that with no punishment to the owner?
I love how the young man killed the other guy's argument.
The way these apologetics defend biblical slavery makes me believe they would bring it back in to society if given a chance.
Any "contract" that allows you to hit someone who doesn't want to be hit (i.e., not sports or consensual sex play, no kink shaming here) is abhorrent. No matter how "minor" the hit.
Making excuses for slavery? Only a Christian 🤦♂️
I consider it a good thing that he was honest enough to concede, at the end, the utter unfixability of those verses. But man! The cognitive dissonance can be quite baffling in some of these conversations.
I’ll take “What are mental gymnastics for $500.”
""There, there is a, there, there is a form of discipline in slavery, yes" That bit is so telling.
It's depressing seeing a slave apologist contort himself into a pretzel to justify the unjustifiable .
The most common form of defending the Bible is "Well in their context it was different" well if that's the case then it's not exactly something we should cherry pick to follow now is it?
Occasionally they use the "that's a mistranslation" card... then conveniently ignore the fact that there are no original documents available to see if it is a mistranslation.
I need some clarification on Alex and his opponent's view that it's not always wrong to kill innocent people.
Alex exposes the moral bankruptcy of the Biblical inerrancy position here. But another telling point is that the passages in Exodus describing slavery explicitly distinguish between debt and chattel slaves. They are entirely consistent with other contemporary legal codes in the region. Some people may resort to paying debts through a period of servitude - either themselves, or by proxy, contracting their wife or children into servitude for an agreed period. This is what is described in Leviticus 39-43. But to make the distinction crystal clear, Leviticus 44 - 46 spells out that these conditions are to be applied to fellow Hebrews. Fellow Hebrews cannot be treated as chattel slaves. Rather, chattel slaves, may be taken from other tribes, treated with much harsher discipline, and held in slavery "for life". The distinction could not be clearer.
According to exodus 21 you can beat them until they can’t stand up but you just can’t permanently damage them which is why the example of the eye was given.
“If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
- Exodus 21:20-21
“If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
- Exodus 21:26-27 (These go together.)
The idea that someone can correct someone with a rod, causing permanent damage without losing their slave and freeing them of their debt/duty isn't being presented as an option here. Let alone repeatedly. The idea of punishment regarding the rod and taking of a life is that now there must be a punishment towards the master. This is meant as a protection for slaves.
Nope lol
Its only for the Hebrew slave
Why allow it in the first place lmao
The text is only difficult if you’re trying to square it with a belief that God is omni benevolent and the author of morality. Otherwise, its crystal clear.
And speaking of abominations, his defense was one of worst in history.
This was absolutely beautiful to watch. Thank you!!