Relationship Between Scripture and Holy Tradition
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ย. 2021
- Fr. John Whiteford from St. Jonah of Hankow Orthodox Church in Spring, TX gave a presentation that focused on the Relationship between Scripture and Holy Tradition, and how we can best understand and articulate the Orthodox perspective to our friends and family from protestant background.
Presented on August 26, 2021 at St. Mary of Egypt in Roswell, GA .
I’m listening to this as a Protestant and feeling more drawn to Orthodoxy all the time. Thank you for sharing!
Love Father John!
This was wonderful, I’m a former IFB Baptist and now a catechumen in the Orthodox Church. I’ll share this video with many others. Thank you
Thank you Father we really appreciate you. Please keep doing these talks
When Reformed Protestants hear the word "tradition," they think Trent, Immaculate conception, etc. I.e. "tradition" to a Reformed Protestant is what Rome says it is. What I think would be helpful for such Protestants is to hear set forth clearly the differences between the concept of Tradition in Catholicism and Orthodoxy
Rome in 1054ad marks the 1st protestants.....
@@xenosmann831 Wasn't it not so much the Catholics breaking off from the Orthodox, as the two splitting from each other? Unlike the Protestants breaking off from the Catholics?
@@saintburnsy2468 No it wasnt the 2 splitting off as you ask. In 867AD St Photios led a council known as the "Robber Barron" to oppose a b fiat change to the Nycene Creed by the Roman Patriarch. In 867AD Rome accepted begrudging the other 4 Patriarchs condemnation of its actions. Almost 200 years later the Roman Patriarch did by fiat what they wanted to alter the structure of the Apstolic succession given by Christ.
**The Roman Catholics are the 1st protestants in that they protested the Church in its original form given by Christ. Martin Luther actually opposed mostly corruption in the Roman Catholic church at 1st, but the same thing is Luther in doctrine like the Roman Catholic church in 1054 tried by fiat which started w/the 95 thesis & ended up codified in the Augsburg Confessions. The dontrinal issues leave Rome outside the Apstolic succession thus needing to justify a papal "Petrine doctrine" which falls flat after 5 minutes of review on its face on western Fathers of the ancient Church. Your question is merely a rehash of Vatican 2 wishy washy proposal to leave aside the actual reason/actions by the pope of Rome in 1054AD through Cardinal Humbardt, legate of the pope. Again the Roman are the 1t Roman Catholic, different in how they trive to even now from 1054 to alter the Church but the same as Luther, Calvin, etc.
Then In 1066 the papist Norman army's would come force the schematic English sea of Canterbury back into Rome and implement the Roman Catholic approved feudalism, which was foreign to autocratic, orthodox England.
Thank you for that Fr Whiteford it was a really great talk. I think even if protestants came across this afterwards they might go away some what more convinced of the Orthodox faith.
God is using protestant pastors who have rich knowledge of bible to enter into orthodoxy and open eyes of congregants who have not been taught anything by the orthodox priests.god works in mysterious ways
Thanks!
Triity and homoousios are words that sum up what is in the Bible about these issues.
Fr. John Behr has great talk as well about tradition and scripture.
Brother, I too came out of Protestantism (the Christian Reformed denomination), and do not regret it. It’s unfortunate of what has taken place in that denomination. I believe that more heretical doctrines and practices has come out of the Protestant faith than either the Orthodox and Catholic Churches combined!
Well done.
20:41, you make a good point here brother.
It appears John 5:4 has been fixed in the NIV. I have a brand new copy that i just checked.
46:00
The religion's of the middle East have same structure and Claims. You have the legalists the mystic's and the theological philosophers.
Is ROCOR in communion with OCA?
Yes. It was part of the agreement of reunion with Moscow.
What is the Orthodox doing to reach unbelievers? Being part of the Protestant church now and growing up Roman Catholic I have seen a lot. Yet, up until meeting someone who is researching orthodoxy, I had never heard much about the Orthodox church. My only experience was the Greek Orthodox Church in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding". So, why didn't I see the church reaching out before? Why was it I came to salvation in a Baptist church? I am not trying to be tricky but I genuinely wonder why protestants are a lot better at missions and outreach to communities. Why does it "seem" that the Orthodox church is silent in this area?
I think it's because the immigrants didn't want to be aggressive in the US. Things are changing a lot. I've had the same concerns, but mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are always spreading their faith and that doesn't make it true. Baptists (my background) spread the Christian Gospel all over the world, yet what if praying the sinners prayer isn't enough, and what if Eucharist is the central point of receiving grace, forgiveness of sins? What if we (Baptists) are spreading, if not a false gospel, then an incomplete understanding of the gospel. I don't have solid answers yet, but that's just my reasoning. Btw, I started on this journey when Joseph Prince and Perry Stone were teaching to take communion at home and I asked my pastor about, "some are sick and some have fallen asleep," and he said, "It's just a cracker." I was so shocked, I can't explain. I didn't say it to him, but what went through my mind is, "then prayers to accept Christ are just words, and baptism is just water. "
@@OrthodoxInquirer yeah...I have noticed that baptist churches and protestant churches in general tend to say oh pray this prayer but not guide you well through the sanctification process...the everyday Christian walk and what that looks like. Confession is overlooked often but it is confession that leads to victory over sin as we develop in our walk...and that's the exact thing we are not doing...so how can we possibly have victory and grow?
Immigrant problems and cultural/language barriers.
The Orthodox jurisdictions that are very good with outreach in America are, not surprisingly, the ones with the most American converts, like Antioch. It comes a lot easier to those folks to communicate the Faith in a way that the locals can understand it.
Antiochian Archdiocese of North America and the Orthodox Church of America are almost completely attended by 1st and 2nd Generation Orthodox believers.
Rapid growth is not the name of the game with Orthodox mission work. It took almost half a Millennium for Russia as we know it to be Christianised and that was with the support of the Grand Dukes and then the Tsar. Orthodoxy in America has no governmental support, is surrounded by those hostile to it; Romans, Protestants, Pagans and increasingly hostile laws against Christian Morality.
And for now we are here, waiting for people like you to come to a service and talk to us. We don't bite.
As an orthodox, I have asked the same question. The answer is in orthodoxy, you are "called" not "recruited" as some protestants do. I completely agree.
Good people's and Bad people's and very very very very very etc
46:02, the issue of papal supremacy.
Orthodox
25:05, a scripture that Protestants use to prove their point.
That doesn't actually prove the point, because they have to rip the Scriptures out of the context of the history and life of the Church to get there.
It would be like ripping the heart out of a patient and expecting it to work by itself. The fact that there are SO MANY Protestant denominations teaching different doctrines shows the bad fruit of Sola Scriptura.
@@nicodemuseam hey brother, I’m not advocating nor being critical of our Protestant brethren (you might brother, but I don’t); I’m just stating a fact. Without a doubt, there are major problems with Protestantism, one being the introduction of Age of Reason/Enlightenment theology, but they are part of the church of Christ. You might deny that (that’s your business if you do), but I will not!
26:10, brother, tradition in the church can be very helpful, but not infallible and relied upon. There are traditions in the church that are nothing more than imaginations-that is, the imaginary thoughts of well-meaning but unsound beliefs.
Some examples, perhaps?
@@nicodemuseam ok I’ll give you a few: having icons, burning incense, singing without instrumental accompaniment, infant baptism. You want more?
I can offer some more, but I think that’s enough. I’ve proven my point!
@@nicodemuseam the Orthodox denomination is so caught up in liturgical tradition, it’s astonishing!
@@McIntyreBible
All of thise things, believe it or not, belong to the Apostolic Tradition.
How do you think the Israelites worshipped at the Temple in Jerusalem? Vestments, set prayers, Liturgical worship, incense, offerings... The Temple even had iconography, including angels...
Baptism is the New Covenant circumcision; The "circumcision made without hands" (Col 2)
Infants were circumcised in the Old Covenant.... Connect the dots.
The traditions of men , out of the lie saying Moses gave us the oral laws, (Talmud )
The Pharisses through the leavens of the LAW, in conjuction with the Protestants , created by them , in the leavens of the FAITH, to serve the Apostasy , both to Egypt,
22:03, one of the problems of Protestantism.
It is so disheartening to see yet another priest spend all the energy on making a polemic against protestants rather than presenting some truth in its own right. According to orthodox canon (2nd council of nica) protestants are not Christians and are not saved. This either needs to be embraced or repented of.
You may enjoy the book, called "Truth of our faith", by Elder Cleopa of Romania. He is answering questions from Romanians who have been protestanized: questions about Church, tradition, salvation ("Presuppositions of our salvation" is an article online - orthodoxinfo), in-line with Holy Scripture.
@@EO-John9540 I might check that out. But unless there is a formal repentance of items from certain synods ect. then there is little hope of the problems with the eastern traditions being resolved. Just remember that every year at the beginning of great lent people from eastern traditions dam the rest of us to Hell for things like having a Jewish doctor, or using unleavened communion bread. If "the church cannot error" (Jerusalem Synod of 1672) as is claimed, then I am not actually a Christian, have not seen God move, and don't understand scripture. The claims of the Orthodox tradition require the correctness of their ecumenical counsels. But even the Orthodox correct or update past documents that were affirmed "by all the Orthodox church".
If the church exists outside the Orthodox communion then the eastern traditions need to be open to correction from Gods people. If the church doesn't exist outside the Orthodox communion then they need to repent of this false "know where the church is but not where it isn't" business.
I’ve seen a couple of different talks, why focus on other religions and how they deliver the word of God. You’re so focused with your tradition, you forget about the heart of Christ. Reach out and touch the community, not your sacred scrolls
the Heart of Christ is the very tradition the Orthodox (if they are not in schism) seek to preserve--and evangelize--at all costs.
@Desert and Church Father Wisdom You say you were a Catholic monk? what order did you belong to
One aspect of orthodox discourse is apophaticism. We must outline not just what we are (catophatic) but also what we are not so that there's no confusion. This is not intended to harm, we simply desire that truth be spoken in as loving a way as we can muster.
2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that scripture is all we need to be complete or perfect as the KJV says. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete and throughly furnished unto all good works. The five forms of worship are singing praise to God, prayer, the Lord's Supper, giving as we have been prospered, and reading, preaching, and teaching of God's Word. As far as traditions go they either agree or disagree with God's Word. If they disagree, its false doctrine. If they agree then its already in the scripture. I will never pray to Mary or the Saints, because of what 1 Timothy 2:5 says, I will never call any man the holy father because Jesus said to call no man your father but your Father in Heaven. I will never bow down to a statue because in Exodus it calls that idolatry. I will never baptize a baby because a baby has no sin to wash away until it comes to a knowledge of sin as stated in Romans 7:9. The scripture also tells us that a Bishop should be the husband of one wife and have obedient kids. It says no where that one has to be celibate to be a Bishop. It says no where that we should have to confess our sins to a priest, but in Hebrews 4 it says we can come boldly to the throne of God through praying to God through Jesus Christ to ask forgiveness of our private sins.
Zwingli is the one who said communion wasn't really Christ's body and blood. I challenge you to read the last third of John 6 and interpret it any other way. Unfortunately, Luther got rid of much truth while trying to rid the Catholic church of corruption. Orthodoxy and Catholicism split over the "and the Son" wording of the creed, and protestants did not change it back from the corrupted version. Look up filoque. I'm converting from Southern Baptist to Eastern Orthodoxy. I love asking the martyrs to pray for me, because they are not dead, but alive in Christ, so just as I could ask you to pray for me or my family, I can ask a Saint to pray. Also, Orthodox priests are married most of the time. Bishops are celebate because of their huge responsibility, like Paul. It's so different than the Catholic church. I hope you actually listened to his talk. The Didache is an ancient text that confirms much of what the Orthodox church does. It almost made it into the New Testament. It was that important. Sort of like an early Christian tract that summed up the most important doctrines. In the early church, people would literally go to church and confess their sins to Christ in front of the whole church. Now we just confess to Christ in the presence of a priest, not "to the priest." Also, Orthodox use icons, not statues. They are windows into heaven to remind us that we see through the veil into the reality of the Kingdom. Those people depicted are not dead, but alive in Christ. When venerating an icon, we're greeting the actual person on the other side who is about to worship God with us. Blessings!
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven-not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
John 6:53-58 NKJV
bible.com/bible/114/jhn.6.53-58.NKJV
Forgive me, but I can't answer all your comments and objections in 1 post. Here's an answer to "Call no man Father." I had many of the same thoughts as you do 2 years ago before I began this journey. I'm still not a catechumen, but hope to be soon. May the Lord bless you with knowledge and wisdom as you seek to follow the Lord. Orthodoxy has outward similarities to Catholicism but the spirit is so different, I can't explain. It's even more merciful than protestantism in many respects. It's not legalism or works oriented. It's more like a Marine training for battle. www.engageorthodoxy.net/call-no-man-father
@@OrthodoxInquirer Here's my opinion for what's its worth. Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21 that His kingdom was not of this world. He said, Neither will men say lo here or lo there, for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you. In other words, its not an organization of men, its a connection to God through Jesus Christ. I think most Catholics are good people but I think they put the emphasis more on the physical organization and rituals than they do the spiritual connection to God through Jesus Christ. When I read Romans 10:6-13 it appears to say that God can save anyone, anywhere, anytime when they call on him with a contrite and humble heart. I believe therefore that there are saved people in every denomination. Its more of a condition of the heart and its relationship to God than it is the human structure of religion around it. I could be wrong, but I don't see how it can be any other way because people are born and raised in so many different backgrounds and environments. Thank you for your kind words. I can tell you have a good heart.
@@OrthodoxInquirer You walk by faith not by sight. 2 Cor. 5:7 Can you see Paul or any other of the Jewish Apostles venerating icons or statues or pictures? They would have rent their clothes over such a thing. Can you see the early Jewish Apostles praying to Mary or any other saint who has passed on? Don't think so. In 70 AD, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Roman army under Titus. As a result, the Jewish influence ended. I think all these icons or statues as you call them are reflections of paganism that creeped into the Church over time. No where does it call Mary the mother the God or the Queen of Heaven in scripture. If they thought that, it surely would be mentioned somewhere in scripture. I don't know when or where that started but it definitely wasn't part of the first century New Testament Church. No where does Paul or any other of the New Testament writers even hint of that. If Paul didn't pray to Mary or the saints than neither do I need to do it.
Another trickster
46:01, the issue of papal supremacy.