Why Drive by Wire throttle rules | fullBOOST
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2019
- Ford Calibration Engineer Tyrone Smith talks about the benefits of why Drive by Wire throttle systems are superior to cable setups and how they can be used not only in the OE world but also the Motorsport sector.
If you’d like to be notified every time we upload a video, subscribe and then click the bell icon next to the subscription button.
www.fullBOOST.com.au
Get your track gear!
shop.fullboost.com.au
We are now podcasting
fullboost.podbean.com
Follow us on social media @
Google+
plus.google.com/+fullboost
Facebook
/ fullboostcomau
TH-cam
/ fullboostcomau
Twitter
/ fullboostcomau
Instagram
/ fullboostcomau
COPYRIGHT WARNING:
The above video is copyrighted © to Fullboost
You do not have permission to download it and re-upload it anywhere in any form. You can click the share button on TH-cam for that, or copy/paste the URL to social media.
#fullboost #drivebywire #efitech #tech #technical #automotive #motec #efi - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.77[1/2] ก็ไม่ได้ชอบเอาชนะ แต่เรื่องอะไรต้องแพ้!!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JraaBYOd7I0/mqdefault.jpg)
This guy needs his own channel 👌
I hope you have more footage of this guy. So knowable and not afraid to share it with us.
Such a nice bloke and super informative! I learnt way more about throttle bodies today than I ever thought I would
i know I'm kinda randomly asking but does anybody know of a good place to stream new tv shows online ?
@Elian Thaddeus ehh try flixportal. just search on google after it :P -kalel
@Kalel Hank thank you, signed up and it seems like they got a lot of movies there :) Appreciate it !!
@Elian Thaddeus No problem :)
Tyrone is awesome - so much knowledge but makes it relatively easy for the rest of us to understand. Love his approach based on OE knowledge.
Nice job T-man !! The irony of getting more recognition and thanks from TH-cam viewers than you do from your own supervisor or manager !! More videos please !
One of the few videos that I understand about tuneing lol. This guy is a G
Great content. I've been using DBW for years to control boost in my Turbo LS 6.0 with an 88mm with no wastegate. Changed from a gold blade to a much smaller throttle body from a V6, to get better authority. 14psi is around 50% throttle open.
Great information and advice, thanks for sharing. 'Range of Authority' I will remember that phrase - GOLD!
seems like such a nice guy ,learned a lot,do more videos with him
Awesome video! That guy knows his stuff!
Need to have a pod cast with Tyrone Smith and Gale Banks talking shop. Awesome video!!
Love the Weird Science, need more of it pls. This channel continues to go from strength to strength 🤙🖖🤙
Also DBW gives you cruise control. A tamer pedal on the street for when the missus is going to woolies in the wet is super appreciated too!
Hahah
Awesome info! Useful info.. Thanks for sharing!!
Finally a properly explained video about DBW to the point. This guy is a straight G
WELL. I was converted before I got halfway through the video lol. Excellent information and raised several points that hadn't occurred to me.
Great work
Tyrone is very knowledgeable good info
More videos with this awesome dude !
Motec👍. Great video and YOUGE knowledge bomb for us novice tuning peoples.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Great video BTW 👍
Tyrone is the man!
finally someone who really has idea of DBW !
It was fly by wire before it was drive by wire...an Australian innovation 👍🏻
Very informative. I have a 14 focus and it's the first car I've owned with an electronic throttle. If I step on it a little, half throttle, and accelerate from a stop to about 30mph when I
release the throttle quickly there is a noticeable delay before the throttle actually closes. This is very disconcerting when you continue to accelerate after releasing the throttle, even if
it is only for a tenth of a second.
@@ThatWasPrettyFunny thanks for the nonsense
Do you do remote tuning? I like your explanation on drive by wire every will done .I have a lexus sc300 with a 2jzgte vvti dbw I want to get it setup .I m running aem infinity 506 ecu
Great video. Yet , with all this technology the idle rpms can't be adjusted ?
Seems odd......
Another great vid, pass on the thanks to Tyrone!
After getting used to driving a cable throttle on an NA engine I feel very weird driving a DBW road car.
I think I'd like it much better in a race car though!
Very informative video! If you haven't looked into things like this you would just believe all the driver's that say it's shit compared to cable. But it's just another failsafe/tunability factor. Which is great when it comes to fine tuning a race car
As I understand the throttle body and ECU system works like the potentiometer is connected to the ECU and the throttle body motor pins are connected to the ECU. so turning the potentiometer( pressing the gas pedal) will turn the throttle motor and the valve will open and close. But I do not have a potentiometer in my project setup, I have a passenger counting script written on a raspberry pi ( that replace the ECU) and the passenger counting result will decide on closing the throttle valve. how do I connect them to the raspberry pi or Arduino?
more more more more pleeaasseeee
How to get a tps signal to the fi tech go shift control unit with drive by wire gm high performance wireing harnesd
Can we please get a Tyrone Smith channel!?!
Is there a difference between a gold plate and a sliver plate dbw throttle body?
Interesting
Lots of butthurt in the comments.
Very cool video. Thanks for the info. I've never driven a DBW car aggressively. The only DBW I truly didn't like was a Z3 3.0i with the M54B30. I found it to have slow tip in which, combined withe clutch delay valve, made it more difficult to drive around parking lots and such. I've driven that exact same engine in an e39 and had none of those complaints. I race a non-grip-limited mechanical diesel so I'm coming from a very different place than most.
What is racing non-grip-limited mechanical diesels? Im legitimately curious.
@@DgtalBreakz I race an old Mercedes Benz with a mechanically injected diesel engine. It has a lot of tire and not much power.
Hey guys, where can we find tyrone Smith? Does he have a shop
I believe he is at octane alley in geelong
Wow hectik how fast it can open geez wide open quicker than a blink of an eye
Glad a haltech elite can do the same job
Why not just reach straight for the top shelf with Motec M1?
Nothing against motec just depends on your application tbh and what your goals are and obviously what your car is used for
So Drive by wire compensates for idiots ?
Calibration as discussed teaches bad habits to the driver unless it is in a Race environment where every little bit helps IMO.
I would say as well for the application of throttle in a linear DBW map the cable is faster or as fast as it is directly linked to the pedal. Also when released in linear it will only close as fast as the pedal returns. Back in the days of carbs with mechanical secondaries we used to put the throttle cable pull off center to achieve the 75% pedal 50% throttle or less for decent drive ability on rough roads. His point about on boost part lift of is good as all OE stuff is set up for the very first drive and that sort of throttle technique would take a wile to learn.
May be im just old school in that I prefer a power/torque curve that can get away from me as it adds to the enjoyment of driving far more than just going fast...
Please use every opportunity for Tyrone to reappear on the Channel.
That it is, you can adjust the lobe both ways, quick/slow ramp or change how it was in the middle.
DBW compensates for morons just like boost limits in the lower gears does for the turbocharger. Everybody thinks they are a great driver. Umm, if you can launch the car without wheel spin then I would agree. Since almost nobody can accomplish that, these are tools that make you look like a hero behind the wheel and nobody is the wiser.
I agree. He says that it takes 75ms to actuate from 0 to 100% on the throttle itself which is all good but you have to take into account the signal response time from the pedal pickup to the ECU then to the throttle motor for it to actuate. This is the reason most people complain about the lag. Now this stuff is run from a limited refresh rate in the ecu and most aftermarket ecu's are faster than a OE ecu and you will notice less throttle lag just by changing that factor.
It makes perfect sense to use one for a drag application but for circuit racing I don't think I would get on board with it. As a skilled driver I don't want anything interfering with what I am doing with the throttle in a dry track situation. I am quite capable of determining what I need to do to get the power down correctly. HOWEVER in the wet sure it will be much more useful than traction control when set up correctly.
I feel DBW is a good solution for certain drivers and applications but it's not for everyone.
@@GarageSupra The DBW lag has nothing to do with the ECU's input signal reading nor output driver task rate. As he mentioned, manufacturers use it to prevent driveline jerk/thumps due to driveline component clearances.
He also mentioned in the video multiple times, the main benefit of DBW is to limit the throttle angle for speed/loads that don't require the full 90 degrees of throttle body blade rotation. This provides the driver a more predictable engine torque request as a function of foot pedal angle.
@@GarageSupra , with respect, i have to correct you. Nearly every high-end circuit racing car (ALMS, DP, F1, etc.) utilise DBW for this purpose..speed and accuracy...so it is by no means "just for drag racing". There are an increasing number of circuit cars running DBW....change is slow, often fuelled by fear or ignorance or both...not suggesting you are either!
On a modern ECU, the signal response time is negligible in terms of the response time of the throttle..ie: on an M1, the driver input pedal posn is sampled at 200HZ (200times/sec = 5mS). The loop time for the M1's microprocessor to calculate the required output to the motor is infintesimal (order of nanoseconds, or millionths of a MILLISECOND..10exp-9 seconds!). The time for the TPS to be read (also at 200Hz, or 5mS) means there is approx 10mS plus a few nanoseconds propagation delay between pedal and plate position. So theoretically a delay, but practically it has no effect on the speed of response of the throttle body, if you push the pedal fast...take worst case, 0% pedal to 100% pedal instantly..first sample, pedal reads 0%, 5mS later assuming you push the pedal to 100% in 5mS (unlikely), the PedPosn would be read as 100%. Output H-bridge goes to full on, and then it is all down to the speed of the actuator motor...so 5-10mS of delay in something that takes 75mS is negligible, especially considering the manifold fill time to the change of MAP, which is a function of the manifold volume. Introduce a step change to your mech throttle plate (or DBW for that matter) and watch the deltaMAP (change in MAP vs time)..it is finite, and has significant bearing on engine tip-in response, far more so than the outright speed of the DBW actuator! In nearly all cases the actuator response is damped or "slew", and in OEM factory unmodified cars, especially manuals, it is slewed excessively for what many "performance" drivers desire...but they drive nice don't they, and they are still pretty fast response at higher engine speeds (the response is often made faster at higher speeds/loads and pedal rates..all tuneable by the OEM engineers, to meet the DNA and targets of their corporations...not every one demands zoom zoom!). With the M1 for example, we can tune the response to however we want...and it most cases, some slew limiting at lower pedals is still best, feeling intuative to drive, rather than having to "drive around it"..anyone with mechanical IRTB intakes that are large will tell you what "driving around" the low speed reduced airflow authority is like, as WOT (100%MAP) at lower engine speeds can be as little as 10-15% pedal. As i explained in vid, 100% load often comes WAY before 100% plate angle at everywhere below full power.
If you have a cable, unless it is push-pull like most motorbikes, when you let off the throttle, you rely on the spring force to return the plate closed. But the momentum of airflow flowing thru throttle is one force that can resist it closing, as it stiction in the cable, shaft bearings, linkages, etc. So the net force to actually drive the plate closed is the spring force MINUS all those other forces, and the spring force gets less the more the plate closes (nice differential equation problem!). So the result is often if not always that the closing force is significantly lower than the pull force when you rapidly open it..so closing can be way less rapid!!
Contrast that to DBW, where the actuator is driven closed by the same motor force that it takes to open it, with the only detriment being those forces of air mass flow resisting closure. Postive closing, and we can dwell it a bit as it returns to idle to improve rsistance to stall, as well as controlling the minimum manifold MAP to avoid decel misfires, poor combustion, shuffles and huntingetc on closed throttle decels..which we have all heard cars at the track do! If you want a drive a pig, that's fine by me...but there's no reason with modern DBW tech that just because it's fast it has to be a pig to drive! Remember, as I often say, if it's easy to drive, it's very easy to drive FAST!
I did my first DBW racecar in 2002 - no-one i have even done DBW for since has ever wanted to go back to cable, or take it away...quite the opposite!
I prefer a cable, but with these you can have CC
This dude knows his shyte!
Who would thumbs down this?
The people who hates drive by cable throttle bodys
me who owns a cable throttle and dbw
Good Stuff Gentleman.
I needed to smoke a cigarette afterwards
👍😎
no dbw is slow unresponsive and dangerous because the possibility of unintended acceleration i can guarantee you i can snap a cable TB open FASTER the DBW anyday also sucks when you have to use a midtronix mdx 600 battery tester and having to go back and forth to rev engine out of and under loads sucks cause you cant rev the engine while under the hood
I thought LS based cars only had 2 throttle positions.....
What happened to good old fashioned peddling the car? In my opinion this is playing around too much with the throttle and starts to become an unreal feeling with driver and power response/delivery. Just my opinion, but this is slowly heading toward the car/engine management taking over stuff the driver should be learning by driving the car and feeling it out for themselves... Again just my opinion. Good Video FullBoost.
WOG13B I greatly prefer the feeling of direct feeling also, but would have to drive a well set up dbw car to form a proper opinion
@@TDJDriftersBoss a well set up dbw tb on car rated north of 60k will need money and lots of it. a typical driver who has a typical job and typical life drives a corolla or a crv or a hyundai and the response is terrible even by modern computer standards. this needs to stop and let the people choose between cable throttle or pure digital motor like Tesla
Throttle pedal position mapped to RPM rather than to torque would be just the ticket for burnout cars, especially turbo'd ones. Somewhat similar to a cruise control. Hold the pedal to a constant position just a bit less than the rev limiter and away you go. None of this mang-mang-mang business!
I would rather have a cable and parts that don't cost 600 dollars for an electronic pedal assembly not counting things on the throttle body itself.
While I can completely understand the value of drive by wire in a performance application, where the tuner has total control of adjustments to improve drivability, in the OE market it is being tuned by manufacturers to help bad drivers have smoother throttle input, while ruining the responsiveness for people who are accustomed to carefully modulating throttle inputs. I’ve never felt a drive by wire car that was as easy to modulate throttle in as I have most any cable-driven car. It ends up feeling numb and lifeless. Too bad this guy didn’t tune the throttle mapping on my Audi, because it feels absolutely awful compared to my 300ZX TT that is 20 years older.
Why APR didn’t touch throttle mapping with their tune on my A3 is beyond my comprehension. Shame on them.
I had a Meganne 265 and it had different throttle maps available (OE). It was night and day to drive based on the maps. Opened my eyes as to how good DBW is. But yes, many cars feel terrible as you said, its designed to make the car feel smooth. For commuter turbo cars, it usually makes them feel lazy.
Understanding this will always be niche.
I have a rotary primarily because of the sound, elec cars sound ok but nothing compared to a rotary.
Elec cars will always have the most precise power input, but will always be a bit boring.
wat
??? Because of the sound?! Well thought out bro
@@nismofreak33 ... cyka blyat:)
@@bluebird8004 ... You haven't driven a proper car if you don't think the sound of a car is important.
@@r1yamahamini ah yes
Fantastic Video, DBW is only good for simplification of the engine bay and idle and traction control, Oh and the fail safe limp mode! That's it! Slowly but surly we'll lose all skills in driving ability with all these systems, Yeah it's fast, but your foot can't even move that fast, so why? < As we all know soon the cars will be driving themselves! Fuck we already have a Overabundance of Automatics around Fuck this shit!
Once you get into it, it's actually awesome.
Think about what you just said about the speed of it. If you wanted to, you could press the pedal 10% and the throttle can crack open to whatever % you have configured (and change again depending on conditions).
@@fullboost Ahh ,a awesome point, I was thinking too superficial, will it get to the point that it almost requires no skill to "operate/Drive" cars in a competitive environment though?! From a tunability angle DBW is defiantly superior.
Wrong, like I said above. Can you have double the stock power and not spin the wheels? That is why I find Cootamundra interesting, people are slowly learning and I do mean SLOWLY learning that wheel spin is a no-no. 2000-2500 hp G35's do kick the front wheels to spin so the car won't bog off the line but for everybody else should avoid it like the plague.
@@dj4monie Who are you replying to here? LOL.....We all know DBW can be used for TRAC, As you're not referencing anything said before!? Just a outright WRONG lol....
Bah,,,,,but what he is saying is and isnt true . On average its true more like FI. Someone thats tuned old cars for power can tune a engine non injected to make its peak power no different than if it was an FI engine .
On fly by wire there is a severe disconnect from the Human and the interface .Of course engineers love this and I am guessing a ton of car makers do as well for the vast majority of drivers. Someone good with engines and good with cars and good with driving wants that connection. I still would bank on the human hair covered computer over the electronic one if you give me the right human.
Now does the fly by wire open more doors for cars to perform better for the AVERAGE person ? Of course it does because it takes responsibility from them.
Ive driven and raced all three entities , Cable with Carb , cable with Injection and fly by wire . My preference for performance over a period of time is the Injection with cable . In the beginning even that small lag was too much but its something you get used to. Fly by wire is very hard to adapt to.....
If you want to put a dummy in a car and get the same results from the car as someone with more experience and knowledge , of course you want systems filtered through a computer..... The computer then decides and it will always decide the same.
I've got an idea let's just let the computer drive the car and only have passengers....
At least the government won't hack and take control of my "drive by cable" vehicle
Does this guy have an email?
Apparently 2 years ago I thought this was great; now I find myself mostly rolling my eyes... mostly.
What has changed since then?
@@fullboost I don't know; must have been on some dumb shit back then. Probably something related to the turbo stuff.
Cable is a far superior technology ...
Lol. Like carburettors, leaf springs, wind up windows etc
@@trixnhoez2964 I bet you have grown a thick beard to hide your weak jawline, drive a chinese ev and drink soylent as a daily nutritional supplement
Drive by wire absolutely sucks if your car has a manual gearbox and you're trying to rev match on your upshifts. Nothing like it unnecessarily keeping the revs elevated when you need them to drop. In my truck, if I waited for the revs to drop to the proper RPM for the next gear, I'd lose all momentum and need to shift back down, particularly when going from 1 to 2. It's absolute horseshit that automakers continue to put this crap on cars.
It quite easy to fix that with a throttle controller 👍
@@fullboost Is that true? I've been told that they only affect how much the throttle opens when you press on the gas pedal, but not how quickly it closes when you release the pedal.
@@melinuxf00l it's also easy to lose 2k to fix that
Dam his posture is so bad it hurts me laying in bed