Congrats!! I resigned my LDS membership (officially) about 11 years ago--after 50 YEARS! Best move I ever made. Kinda like going from kindergarten to collage...
My grandparents were Reorganized LDS and claimed that an African Canadian family in their church were becoming fairer skinned over the years! When I heard this as a lad I thought that it was funny, bogus & stupid.
A few more questions you could ask: -Joseph Smith was of English/Irish descent. Why did The Book of Mormon say he would be a descendent of Lehi's son, Joseph, despite the Nephites becoming extinct? -The Book of Mormon says that Nephites kept the law of Moses. How did Enos gained forgiveness just by praying, with no sacrifices, offerings, or even baptism? -How could they keep the law of Moses without Levites to perform the sacrifices? -God told Nephi to kill Laban so his people wouldn't fall into unbelief. They did anyway. Was God wrong? -Why is there a 455 year gap between 2 Nephi and Mosiah? Did nothing important happen in half a millennium except the handing down of plates? -Why did Joseph had to dig for the plates? Moroni could've just handed them to him, like Joseph handed them back when he was finished. -If Joseph didn't understand the characters, why use the plates at all? Why didn't God just reveal the whole story?
Something else I question about Smith's story of running home with the plates: Why were people there to attack him? Had word gotten around about Smith going to get the plates, meaning he was a braggart? Why didn't three men get together to attack him? In a small town, Smith didn't recognize any of them? Pure theatrics.
I mentioned that the plates would be too heavy to lift, to the missionaries. Their response was.........Heavenly Father would have given him ‘super powers’ to enable him to lift them! 😂😂😂😂
IF you are looking into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints be sure to ask a active member not a non member or someone who is having problems at this time in their lives . If you want to know about the Baptist Church go to their site . If you want to learn about us ask us. And ask yourself about the fruit you see from us.
How did your meeting go? I think you're right, it is a hard task, but you only have to plant the seed; the Lord will water it and send laborers to the harvest when the time is right. I know I'll keep praying for the scales to fall from their eyes. God bless!
It may appear like I'm defending the LDS church, but to be honest I'm not sure what to believe in at the moment, however, I definitely believe in Jesus Christ. In the comments I have made, I'm only trying to prove that anything is possible through God. God can do anything he wants whether it makes logical sense or not. He has power to do anything and everything.
I never said it was promoting another church. All that scenerio infers is that she (Emma) DID NOT support her husband's (Joe's) Church. Emma knew her husband better than anyone else. Choosing NOT to go with her husband's church simply means that she KNEW Joe's church was batshit--that she had no confidence that IT WAS "the one and only true church on earth".
I found a copy of The Book of Mormon years ago at a thrift store. I thought it might be interesting so I took it home and started reading it. I was amazed with what utter rubbish it contained and I came to the conclusion that anyone who believed this idiocy had to be either brain washed or brain dead. I had no idea just how bizarre the beliefs of this cult really were, but they make the Bible and the Koran seem almost authentic by comparison.
Good luck in getting your Sabertooth and I wish you well. The only thing I would like to convince people of is that truth can come from anywhere, including science (2+2 DOES equal 4), and at the same time encourage people to QUESTION EVERYTHING and not to believe something just because it "feels good". It was good talking to you--and best wishes, ricky!
"Devious individuals" can be found in any group, religious or not. The actions or INaction of LDS members had nothing to do with my decision to leave. It was strictly the doctrine of Mormonism that convinced me that it was not true because it didn't conform to Christ's ways or his teachings, so, I resigned my membership.
That was not MY perspective. It was merely restructuring YOUR inference that if a doctrine changes lives it's a good thing. False doctrines can also change lives, temporarilly, giving the appearance of "good". I tried to show that racism in SOME minds was seen as "good" (pre 1978).
With regards to the golden plates...What was the reason for them? In other words if God showed Joseph what to write because he couldn't directly translate them, why did he even need the plates? You could argue that they were a way to convince his close circle of friends of its validity. But they couldn't read them either. So the whole concept sounds a bit strange and illogical to me. Great speech Bill.
This is where definitions become so important, every scientist regards the Big Bang as a theory. They are different from any other theory as no matter how much evidence there is to support it, it will remain a theory. Gravity, evolution, plate tectonics and the Big Bang are all still theories but they are based on observable facts & are theories that have withstood scientific scrutiny. I agree with you on that, they could all use much more self-examination.
Or, better still, if the BoM had included a section talking about the Chinese who were already in the Americas. The Nephite writers (supposedly) included meeting up with the last survivors of the Jaredites as well as the Mulekites why not the Chinese. Surely the Nephites would have mentioned taking the Gospel to the numerous Chinese already there when Lehi arrived? No rocket science needed there either.
It was NOT Packer who revealed Dunn's lies. Packer may have announced it to the Church, but he is not the revealer. The man that exposed Dunn was LDS's own KSL/Deseret News reporter (I forget his name) who decided to do some investigative journalism on Dunn's claims. The rest is history. I don't believe Dunn ever apologized--not unlike the Church which has never apologized to blacks or the relatives of MMM. Journal of Discourses finished ANY good I may have felt toward Brigham Young.
Arythmnmaker I determined early on as LDS, that it was wrong to judge the church based on the negative actions of the members. At the same time I ALSO realized it was not fair, either, to judge the church based on the goodness of members. IOW, there are "good" people everywhere and "bad" people everywhere--in government, in business, in science as well as in religions. Good LDS people didn't start polygamy. Good LDS people didn't come up with the idea of racism. THE LDS Church CEOs did it.
What are Bills findings after approaching Christianity with a healthy dose of skepticism? Enjoyed this talk. Mormonism has become an interest of mine here recently. I find Mormons fascinating.
The next generation of scientists rarely prove the last one completely wrong about anything (with 1 or 2 famous exceptions) what generally happens is that the next generation come up with more detailed theories to explain the universe better. In the case of the BB pretty much every single cosmologist alive today will tell you that it did happen, because no other theory explains the following 3 facts better: 1. the receding galaxies, 2. the CMBR, 3. the relative ratios of light isotopes.
Moroni said there was a book deposited, written upon G-O-L-D PLATES (not Tumbaga or anything else BUT GOLD), giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the sources from whence they sprang (History of the Church, vol. 1, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, pp. 11-12). May, 1999, the LDS Ch. News ran an article "Hands-on opportunity." Of Joseph, it read, "He had also been instructed by...Moroni and...entrusted with PLATES OF SOLID GOLD, which he had been translating..."
As for Joseph, need I say more than 3 words as an example of my above statement? "The Expositor Newspaper." That's what happens when someone tries to get negative info out to the public. Nowadays, LDS don't destroy printing presses. That would be too difficult to hide. Instead, they've opted to excommunicate the whistleblowers (BYU professors and teachers are just a few examples), and then proceed to slander their names, and destroy their credibility in the minds of members.
Well, Elder Dallin Oaks disagrees with BY. He said "Don't criticize your leaders, even if they are wrong". That's an apostle "COVERING" for his brothers who make mistakes.
"...to pretend to be a Christian and when you look inside you know you are a liar." This may be the basis for Christ's admonishing us to "not judge". Christ knows hearts and knows liars. It's not something we need to worry about. INSTITUTIONAL lying is a whole nuther beast that we should be worried about--esp those that do so in the name of God--and is why I focus on Mormonism Inc, and not individuals in it--except for individual leaders who promote/enable the continuation of those lies.
First off,..I doubt you refer to Moses as "Moe" nor "Peter from the NT as "Pete" etc..."Joe Smith" is Joseph Smith...no one except his enemies (like all the enemies of Christ) ever refered to the prophet as "Joe Smith"..again..unless thier minds are clouded with evil. Second, does it really matter if it was a "block" of "solid metal" when it is the LORD who strengthens his servants arms? Samson put his hands between two large pillars and pushed on them to have the entire building come down.
Sorry you took it so hard, but I responded E X A C T L Y as I saw it and make no apologies for it. That IS the profile for many in Mormonism, black, white, educated or other, makes no difference. I DO empathize with them in their predicament. My opinion is NOT some wild "assumption". (I Do admit I could be wrong in some details of this person's story. Sorry for your loss.) I just find it VERY difficult to believe a black person, FULLY INFORMED, could EVER be LDS. Can you understand WHY?
Now you know..and if you continue to use "Joe" then that's fine..because you have been told otherwise...so knowledge has freely been given to you - what you choose to do with that is up to you and what kind of integrity you choose when dealing with other LDS people is up to you (i.e. if you continue to use "Joe" rather than Joseph...now that you know)..your true colours will show...and the Lord will also know.
BB is talked about in science circles as a "theory"--even by a majority, possibly--but it certainly is not an accepted theory by all scientists (ie. proven fact). I agree that religious theories are not scrutinized as they should be in the same way that scientific theories are (probably because of "political corectness"). Religion, in the minds of most religionists is "hallowed ground" and not to be challenged. If ANY concept NEEDED to be challenged, it would be religious claims.
Except for the adhering to LDS claims part, I agree. If the "glory of God is intelligence", I don't believe God has dumped logic, reason and intelect as an important part of our search for truth. "Prove all things" he told us...
Correct. Columbus did predate Hernando Cortez--spelled with a "z" in History books. Maybe there's a difference between the Spanish spelling and the Peruvian; he was from Spain, after all. Since Joseph S. knew about Columbus when he wrote the Book of Mormon he could easily have injected this to make it look like a "prophecy". Had he included a "prophecy" about the Chinese colonizing the Americas around 15000 years ago, it would have been more impressive as such knowledge was unknown to Smith.
I didn't know that. At least history shows us that there actually WAS a "Solomon" AND a "David" (or whatever his name was) as well as a "Jerusalem". The Book of Mormon has N-O-T-H-I-N-G comparable. NO THING! ZERO. ZIP. NADA!
If she DIDN'T think that, why didn't she go to Utah with her husbands church? IOW, if she thought her husband's church was REALLY the one and only TRUE church, she would have gone to Utah like the rest of the sheeple did.
@mollymu1 Joseph Smith's own father-in-law, Isaac Hale, testified that Smith's process of translating the golden plates in 1828-29 was the same method he has used to pretend to "see" buried treasure in previous years. The obvious conclusion here is that Smith's claims of miraculously receiving golden plates from an angel which contained writing that he translated "by the power of God" was really just a variation of his earlier "peep-stoning" treasure-hunting scam.
Hi. I don't have a problem with the quality of "fruit" within LDS. I have LDS family and friends I love very much, who are all excellent people. I was active LDS for several decades and saw firsthand this "kindness, generosity, faithfullness" you suggest. As a thinking person you would know that this is only one of several methods of determining the truth or falseness of a particular religious org. While I acknowledge the kindness of LDS members, generally, I saw many OPPOSITE examples, too.
Since all we have to go on is Joe's own story, that he placed the plates in a cloth sack and took off runnin, we are not free to assume anything in addition to that. It DOES NOT say he put "some" of the plates in the bag, nor did he say he took all but the sealed portion. FAIR doesn't even claim that nor do the Big Fifteen bretheren! You're making up a story that'll allow you to sleep at night, and that's IT!
So, since the Nephites were "wipped of them face of the land" due to their wicked ways, then the Lamanites were allowed to continue in the land...what...because of their RIGHTEOUS WAYS?? You've gotta be kidding me!! WTF?!?! That's insane. Use that head of your's for more than a hat-rack!!
Bullshit! If Joe had any integrity he wouldn't have lied his ass off to Emma, the membership OR the community, concerning his polygamy. IF he had ANY integrity he would have stayed away from teenage girls and other men's wives. HE DID NOT! IF he had any integrity he would have never threatened women with distruction for resisting polygamy (D&C 132:54). HE DID! If he had integrity he would have asked Emma for permission to add wives to his harem (D&C 132:61). HE NEVER DID! A liar til the end...
Columbus had "spritual convictions and divine mission"? A Catholic had a divine mission?!?! Was this BEFORE or AFTER Joseph's statement that all churches (including Catholicism) were corrupt abominations? If Columbus had a "divine mission" maybe HE was the "one and only true prophet" rather than Joseph?
Arythmnmaker THAT'S where the problems with LDS Inc originated and it remains so today. Why did LDS Inc do away with polygamy and racism? Because intelligent people with critical thinking skills and the balls to confront error and bigotry complained about it. Homophobia within the Church will also go the way of polygamy and racism. Why? Because it's the right thing to do...
Because of varying HUIMAN interpretations. Same thing happened with Mormonism. Even tho they had 2 books of scripture (or is it 4) the Mormons fractured into over 20 different versions. Smith's own wife and 2 sons broke off Mormonism and started their own version of LDS (along with other people)--the RLDS (now the Church of Christ). IOW, Josephs extra book(s) didn't keep Mormonism together as a single belief structure either.
Thank you for this video upload. I've got the mormons coming round next week so I'm trying to be prepared to give them good arguements. I myself believe its a hard task to get them to know the truth about Jesus though its down to God to draw a man so I you have the time then could you pray for the meeting.
The very reason why we have fossil beds world wide in the number of trillions is from a world wide SUDDEN catastrophe involving WATER. Like I said, watch the video I suggested and see the one to one comparison.
I don't think PD overtly wanted "derision" for himself or family. He was caught red in his lies--admitted such, justified it by saying that it "helped strengthen the faith of many members". He was relieved of his duties (Q70) over it. PUBLICLY, however, the excuse was given as "health". Anyone knowing his saga knows the public reason was face-saving bologne. I don't believe he was alone in his "lying fer da Lard" position among the bretheren--and was likely THE REASON he was not Exed.
@scottwins2 I've always believed that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all separate. But i'm so confused right now. I'm starting to question all religion and I may consider just focusing on the Bible and interpreting it the way that I want and just be content with that versus attending a church that will have contradictions. I'm going to keep researching and studying and praying and see where it takes me.
Very true. However, I don't want to give the impression that I am or have ever judged LDS Inc based on the actions of it's lower echelon members (postive or negative) except in a general way illustrating the possible defective nature of a particular doctrine; ie. LDS internet porno use, their charity or their high use of psychotopic prescription drugs (Prozac, etc). I DO judge LDS Inc based on doctrine (past or present) that make no sense, or that does not seem to conform to scripture (IMO).
While I respect anyone's beliefs and personal opinions, when I confront LDSism I am challenging OFFICIAL LDS Doctrine, not an individual Mormon's OPINION of it--which, most of the time, those opinions do not match the official doctrine. I run into many who claim polygamy/racism was not doctrine. I'll show them their opinion is not correct. Many believe Joseph did not practice polygamy, or did not shoot and kill 2 of the mobbers at Carthage. I attempt to correct that misplaced opinion as well.
@mollymu1 I agree, thats because its a carbon copy of the KJV version of the bible, in which Smith copied almost word for word, then added a few of his own words, that appears many times. Read Walt Whitman's" leaves of grass" . Smith copied words from it also. words like ie ; Homer / Omer ..Moriah / Mosiah . Mantino / Manti . Kneph / Nephi . Sherman / Shurr. The words like " Soul and body " also appear in Leaves of Grass AND the BOM.
@warwolfii equally hard to believe is the historic documentation that exposes joseph smith for his deceptive practices and also his warren jeffs activity, Sandra Tanner who studied documentation and concluded smith was a sexual predator, she speaks of one specific case. you would think believers would want to know this stuff,
Why is it you think that these bretheren would EVER allow anything negative about them to ever be printed or said publically. Quite the contrary. Because of their position of power, they would allow ONLY the most rosy and benevolent, holy and righteous pictures to be painted of them--for public consumption, of course. This is the very thing that allowed Brigham to claim the "Indians" were the ones who perpetrated MMMassacre (led by his step-son)--and naive members belived it--for a 100 years.
Fair point. EXCEPT for the fact that Joseph would have known of this Godly assistance in carrying 100 some pounds at a full gallop (while his gimpy leg must have been throbing painfully). If he WAS assisted, he'd surely said something about it. He DID NOT. Therefore, saying he was assisted is merely making up a story (lie?) to support another larger lie. We know about Samson/talking asses, etc--BECAUSE THEY WROTE IT DOWN! There is N O T H I N G (recorded) to suggest that he had God's help.
Bill, I support your research and find it valid. What I don't understand is the testimony of the 8 and 3 witnesses. I just read them again in Whitmers book you mention here, they all claim an angel showed them to each and they saw the engravings. What is your view as to why these people, who all appear to be family members of Joseph Smith, would say something like this? Was LSD available in the 1820's or are they inebriated? I am being serious. I know you claim it was with spiritual eyes.
That's the very scripture LDS use when we draw attention to the Lies of LDS Inc. But, Like every thing else in Mormonism, it a one-way street--for THEIR use ONLY. In the REAL WORLD we call that a "double standard".
The Book a Marmin CERTAINLY doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny or even LOGICAL scrutiny. Mark Twain said, after reading it, "That book is chloroform in print"--and I concur (having read it 7/8 times cover to cover myself). BOM is what I'm disputing. As for creationism. I don't know anything about it. I hear it is an accepted theory among some--along with it's antithetical THEORY--The Big Bang. All I know for sure; the universe exists. HOW God accomplished it is of no concern to me.
So science has found some neat stuff in Guatamala. Cool! Can I ask what it is in particular that connects these Guatamalan ruins to Mormonism--to the Book of Mormon? Did they find some gold plates or some ancient writings that said that this city was named Zarahemla or some chariots and steel swords? Maybe some wheat or barley? Maybe some ancient Hebrew artifacts...like copies of the Torah? What is the dating of this place?
The story came from the writings of Lucy Mack Smith, Joe's mother. Search for: "Lucy's Book, pp. 385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp. 104-105)". OR, go to--" utlm. org/newsletters/no105. htm#Getting "--for Lucy's exact quote. I'm not sure if you can trust Joseph's mother, tho. She may have had doubts--as Emma did. His mother DID stay faithful to her son's church til her death. Emma DID NOT. She joined the RLDS. (Geeezzzz! Ya just can't trust ANYBODY these days, eh?
AND then accuse them of all sorts of trumped up BS. Why? Because they KNOW the membs will believe the words of their GAs and ignore the words of the whistleblowers--if they can just heap enough garbage on them--because everyone KNOWS an excommed member or apostate (as they are won't to call them) cannot be trusted to tell the truth--and are, in fact Satanic liars that are unable to speak ANY truth. Recent example: Grant Palmer wrote "Insider's view of Mormon Origins". They disfellowshipped him.
Imagine people of this "devious nature" becoming leaders. It seems VERY EASY to fool the masses of people. All that's needed is an honest face and a convincing voice. Hitler is an example (without the honest face). Obama convinced the majority of voters that he alone could/would solve America's problems. He lied. George Bush LIED. L. Ron Hubbard succeded in convincing millions that his way was right--MILLIONS!! A PUBLIC LIFE is NOT indicative of a "holy" life. Joe Smith and BY are examples.
@JohnECocaine Evolution only proves Genesis false if you read Genesis literally. However, Genesis 1-2 wasn't mean to be taken literally, it is meant to be a liturgy which asserts God's sovereignty over creation. Those who read the first chapters of Genesis literally are bad at hermeneutics.
common knowledge means one who knows basic facts would know this having to go to a library is having to do research. She really did join the rlds with joseph jr out of bitterness an joseph jr not being choosen as prophet. how would saying emma joined the rlds be promoting a faith?
In your theory, the truth of a doctrine is unimportant. It's the positive effect it has on the people that's important. I really think that theory is what the LDS Church operates from--lies are okay as long as the faith of the believer in those lies elevates their lives and their conduct. "Truth" as Boyd K. Packer said, is not important, and can be, in fact, dangerous. Makes sense to me...
I don't know if Columbus was crazy or not, but given the numbers of indians he butchered, it kinda points in that direction, doesn't it? He thought he was in India and called the natives "Indians", but that would have been an easy mistake to make--given their worship of cows and the many snake-charmers he found there. Could happen to anybody...
I do, and will--tho, it's not important to me so much as the truth would be important to them--or SHOULD be. I sure catch a lot of shit for it. I'm not complaining--it's all part of the "kill the messenger" game.
did anyone know besides me that king david an solomon didnt exist the time frame doesnt match up with the date of the ruins have been dated themselves theyre off by 100 years an king david isnt his real name. also did anyone know that "David killed off sauls family to stay king an was made king by the philistines not god
Their quantity is about the only thing they have in common, the thing about scientific theories is that they are based an observable facts & go through a process of scrutiny, just like a heliocentric universe, gravity, evolution,etc. The Big Bang has done this. Religious theories the exact opposite. Check out "Letters from the Earth" it's fantastic. To me they're all pretty ridicules, but Mormonism & Scientology kind of take the cake.
Big Bang *is* "accepted" by cosmologists. In science something is "accepted" once the proof becomes overwhelming, especially when compared to other existing explanations. Since there is no such thing as 100% proof in Nature nothing is ever "accepted" as being beyond challenge. All such acceptance is made provisionally. The proviso being that one day someone might come up with a better explanation. In general that does not happen. cont...
they didnt say it would happen at the beginning it said it would happen and it did the nephites were wiped off the face of the land and the lamanites were the ones left in the land and the lamanites lost their land to the spanish
Brigham's belief in the polygamy doctrine--changed his life for the better, how?--other than having 50 wives all doting over his superior sexual potency, virility and staying power. Are you familiar with Paul Dunn-the dis-fellowshipped General Authority? He went around Church Firesides and told his inspiring stories of WWII and as a Pro Baseballer. Many lives were elevated by his stories. Come to find out a few years later, all his stories were lies--his excuse? It helped the faith of many.
Nope! You have the info I need. GIVE it to me...here...now. Or, continue to put out lies. Jesus will be PROUD of you--risking your good,honest name like that...for Him!!
Right. So the question SHOULD be, then, "what are you doing here"? You don't even attempt to have a dialog. You get one challenging response and you fold up like a paper accordian. Surely you can offer some logical reasons as to why you have Moroni with his horn on your most sacred buildings and not Jesus Christ? If you can't come up with some good reasons, hell, just make something up like most good Mormons do. SOMETHING is better than nothing--- or is it?
![[안방1열 풀캠4K] 베이비몬스터 'DRIP' (BABYMONSTER FullCam)│@SBS Inkigayo 241110](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AQ4RIghEvUs/mqdefault.jpg)
Congrats!!
I resigned my LDS membership (officially) about 11 years ago--after 50 YEARS! Best move I ever made.
Kinda like going from kindergarten to collage...
My grandparents were Reorganized LDS and claimed that an African Canadian family in their church were becoming fairer skinned over the years! When I heard this as a lad I thought that it was funny, bogus & stupid.
Probably because they intermarried with whites every generation 😂🤣
A few more questions you could ask:
-Joseph Smith was of English/Irish descent. Why did The Book of Mormon say he would be a descendent of Lehi's son, Joseph, despite the Nephites becoming extinct?
-The Book of Mormon says that Nephites kept the law of Moses. How did Enos gained forgiveness just by praying, with no sacrifices, offerings, or even baptism?
-How could they keep the law of Moses without Levites to perform the sacrifices?
-God told Nephi to kill Laban so his people wouldn't fall into unbelief. They did anyway. Was God wrong?
-Why is there a 455 year gap between 2 Nephi and Mosiah? Did nothing important happen in half a millennium except the handing down of plates?
-Why did Joseph had to dig for the plates? Moroni could've just handed them to him, like Joseph handed them back when he was finished.
-If Joseph didn't understand the characters, why use the plates at all? Why didn't God just reveal the whole story?
Wow, Bill McKeever is an excellent speaker.
Something else I question about Smith's story of running home with the plates: Why were people there to attack him? Had word gotten around about Smith going to get the plates, meaning he was a braggart? Why didn't three men get together to attack him? In a small town, Smith didn't recognize any of them? Pure theatrics.
Thanks, Pastor Bill!
Very well done video. You nailed many major LDS points!
Yes, it's true; he was a convicted con man.
I mentioned that the plates would be too heavy to lift, to the missionaries. Their response was.........Heavenly Father would have given him ‘super powers’ to enable him to lift them! 😂😂😂😂
IF you are looking into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints be sure to ask a active member not a non member or someone who is having problems at this time in their lives . If you want to know about the Baptist Church go to their site . If you want to learn about us ask us. And ask yourself about the fruit you see from us.
Joseph did a pretty fair job of making HIMSELF a liar L-O-N-G before Bill M. came along...
Thanks for posting Aaron! I really like McKeever's approach to Mormonism.
Amen...and happy trails, rythmnmaker...
How did your meeting go? I think you're right, it is a hard task, but you only have to plant the seed; the Lord will water it and send laborers to the harvest when the time is right. I know I'll keep praying for the scales to fall from their eyes. God bless!
It may appear like I'm defending the LDS church, but to be honest I'm not sure what to believe in at the moment, however, I definitely believe in Jesus Christ.
In the comments I have made, I'm only trying to prove that anything is possible through God. God can do anything he wants whether it makes logical sense or not. He has power to do anything and everything.
I never said it was promoting another church.
All that scenerio infers is that she (Emma) DID NOT support her husband's (Joe's)
Church.
Emma knew her husband better than anyone else. Choosing NOT to go with her husband's church simply means that she KNEW Joe's church was batshit--that she had no confidence that IT WAS "the one and only true church on earth".
You should watch a video titled 'The bible vs the book of mormon'
The bible is not fake and is accurate history
GREAT VIDEO, lot's of facts.
I found a copy of The Book of Mormon years ago at a thrift store. I thought it might be interesting so I took it home and started reading it. I was amazed with what utter rubbish it contained and I came to the conclusion that anyone who believed this idiocy had to be either brain washed or brain dead. I had no idea just how bizarre the beliefs of this cult really were, but they make the Bible and the Koran seem almost authentic by comparison.
Good luck in getting your Sabertooth and I wish you well.
The only thing I would like to convince people of is that truth can come from anywhere, including science (2+2 DOES equal 4), and at the same time encourage people to QUESTION EVERYTHING and not to believe something just because it "feels good".
It was good talking to you--and best wishes, ricky!
"Devious individuals" can be found in any group, religious or not. The actions or INaction of LDS members had nothing to do with my decision to leave. It was strictly the doctrine of Mormonism that convinced me that it was not true because it didn't conform to Christ's ways or his teachings, so, I resigned my membership.
That was not MY perspective.
It was merely restructuring YOUR inference that if a doctrine changes lives it's a good thing. False doctrines can also change lives, temporarilly, giving the appearance of "good". I tried to show that racism in SOME minds was seen as "good" (pre 1978).
With regards to the golden plates...What was the reason for them? In other words if God showed Joseph what to write because he couldn't directly translate them, why did he even need the plates? You could argue that they were a way to convince his close circle of friends of its validity. But they couldn't read them either. So the whole concept sounds a bit strange and illogical to me.
Great speech Bill.
ive never heard of him being attacked when he brought the plates home
This is where definitions become so important, every scientist regards the Big Bang as a theory. They are different from any other theory as no matter how much evidence there is to support it, it will remain a theory. Gravity, evolution, plate tectonics and the Big Bang are all still theories but they are based on observable facts & are theories that have withstood scientific scrutiny.
I agree with you on that, they could all use much more self-examination.
Or, better still, if the BoM had included a section talking about the Chinese who were already in the Americas. The Nephite writers (supposedly) included meeting up with the last survivors of the Jaredites as well as the Mulekites why not the Chinese. Surely the Nephites would have mentioned taking the Gospel to the numerous Chinese already there when Lehi arrived?
No rocket science needed there either.
my name is ricardo, everyone calls me rick...
It was NOT Packer who revealed Dunn's lies. Packer may have announced it to the Church, but he is not the revealer. The man that exposed Dunn was LDS's own KSL/Deseret News reporter (I forget his name) who decided to do some investigative journalism on Dunn's claims. The rest is history. I don't believe Dunn ever apologized--not unlike the Church which has never apologized to blacks or the relatives of MMM.
Journal of Discourses finished ANY good I may have felt toward Brigham Young.
Arythmnmaker
I determined early on as LDS, that it was wrong to judge the church based on the negative actions of the members. At the same time I ALSO realized it was not fair, either, to judge the church based on the goodness of members. IOW, there are "good" people everywhere and "bad" people everywhere--in government, in business, in science as well as in religions.
Good LDS people didn't start polygamy. Good LDS people didn't come up with the idea of racism. THE LDS Church CEOs did it.
Joseph smith was a 19th century con- man, a known swindler he was convicted!!
What are Bills findings after approaching Christianity with a healthy dose of skepticism? Enjoyed this talk. Mormonism has become an interest of mine here recently. I find Mormons fascinating.
Again I agree.
The next generation of scientists rarely prove the last one completely wrong about anything (with 1 or 2 famous exceptions) what generally happens is that the next generation come up with more detailed theories to explain the universe better.
In the case of the BB pretty much every single cosmologist alive today will tell you that it did happen, because no other theory explains the following 3 facts better:
1. the receding galaxies, 2. the CMBR, 3. the relative ratios of light isotopes.
Moroni said there was a book deposited, written upon G-O-L-D PLATES (not Tumbaga or anything else BUT GOLD), giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the sources from whence they sprang (History of the Church, vol. 1, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1976, pp. 11-12).
May, 1999, the LDS Ch. News ran an article "Hands-on opportunity." Of Joseph, it read, "He had also been instructed by...Moroni and...entrusted with PLATES OF SOLID GOLD, which he had been translating..."
As for Joseph, need I say more than 3 words as an example of my above statement?
"The Expositor Newspaper."
That's what happens when someone tries to get negative info out to the public.
Nowadays, LDS don't destroy printing presses. That would be too difficult to hide.
Instead, they've opted to excommunicate the whistleblowers (BYU professors and teachers are just a few examples), and then proceed to slander their names, and destroy their credibility in the minds of members.
Well, Elder Dallin Oaks disagrees with BY.
He said "Don't criticize your leaders, even if they are wrong".
That's an apostle "COVERING" for his brothers who make mistakes.
look it up
"...to pretend to be a Christian and when you look inside you know you are a liar."
This may be the basis for Christ's admonishing us to "not judge". Christ knows hearts and knows liars. It's not something we need to worry about. INSTITUTIONAL lying is a whole nuther beast that we should be worried about--esp those that do so in the name of God--and is why I focus on Mormonism Inc, and not individuals in it--except for individual leaders who promote/enable the continuation of those lies.
Agreed.
First off,..I doubt you refer to Moses as "Moe" nor "Peter from the NT as "Pete" etc..."Joe Smith" is Joseph Smith...no one except his enemies (like all the enemies of Christ) ever refered to the prophet as "Joe Smith"..again..unless thier minds are clouded with evil.
Second, does it really matter if it was a "block" of "solid metal" when it is the LORD who strengthens his servants arms? Samson put his hands between two large pillars and pushed on them to have the entire building come down.
Sorry you took it so hard, but I responded E X A C T L Y as I saw it and make no apologies for it.
That IS the profile for many in Mormonism, black, white, educated or other, makes no difference. I DO empathize with them in their predicament.
My opinion is NOT some wild "assumption". (I Do admit I could be wrong in some details of this person's story. Sorry for your loss.) I just find it VERY difficult to believe a black person, FULLY INFORMED, could EVER be LDS.
Can you understand WHY?
It kinda reminds me of my LDS mission in some ways...
Now you know..and if you continue to use "Joe" then that's fine..because you have been told otherwise...so knowledge has freely been given to you - what you choose to do with that is up to you and what kind of integrity you choose when dealing with other LDS people is up to you (i.e. if you continue to use "Joe" rather than Joseph...now that you know)..your true colours will show...and the Lord will also know.
BB is talked about in science circles as a "theory"--even by a majority, possibly--but it certainly is not an accepted theory by all scientists (ie. proven fact).
I agree that religious theories are not scrutinized as they should be in the same way that scientific theories are (probably because of "political corectness"). Religion, in the minds of most religionists is "hallowed ground" and not to be challenged. If ANY concept NEEDED to be challenged, it would be religious claims.
Except for the adhering to LDS claims part, I agree.
If the "glory of God is intelligence", I don't believe God has dumped logic, reason and intelect as an important part of our search for truth.
"Prove all things" he told us...
Correct. Columbus did predate Hernando Cortez--spelled with a "z" in History books. Maybe there's a difference between the Spanish spelling and the Peruvian; he was from Spain, after all.
Since Joseph S. knew about Columbus when he wrote the Book of Mormon he could easily have injected this to make it look like a "prophecy". Had he included a "prophecy" about the Chinese colonizing the Americas around 15000 years ago, it would have been more impressive as such knowledge was unknown to Smith.
@JohnECocaine It is more accurate to say that fundamentalist Christianity has, in some respects, been proven false
I didn't know that.
At least history shows us that there actually WAS a "Solomon" AND a "David" (or whatever his name was) as well as a "Jerusalem".
The Book of Mormon has N-O-T-H-I-N-G comparable. NO THING! ZERO. ZIP. NADA!
If she DIDN'T think that, why didn't she go to Utah with her husbands church?
IOW, if she thought her husband's church was REALLY the one and only TRUE church, she would have gone to Utah like the rest of the sheeple did.
@mollymu1 Joseph Smith's own father-in-law, Isaac Hale, testified that Smith's process of translating the golden plates in 1828-29 was the same method he has used to pretend to "see" buried treasure in previous years. The obvious conclusion here is that Smith's claims of miraculously receiving golden plates from an angel which contained writing that he translated "by the power of God" was really just a variation of his earlier "peep-stoning" treasure-hunting scam.
Hi.
I don't have a problem with the quality of "fruit" within LDS.
I have LDS family and friends I love very much, who are all excellent people. I was active LDS for several decades and saw firsthand this "kindness, generosity, faithfullness" you suggest.
As a thinking person you would know that this is only one of several methods of determining the truth or falseness of a particular religious org.
While I acknowledge the kindness of LDS members, generally, I saw many OPPOSITE examples, too.
Give me the source for your info that there were gold plates found in Mexico.
Since all we have to go on is Joe's own story, that he placed the plates in a cloth sack and took off runnin, we are not free to assume anything in addition to that. It DOES NOT say he put "some" of the plates in the bag, nor did he say he took all but the sealed portion.
FAIR doesn't even claim that nor do the Big Fifteen bretheren!
You're making up a story that'll allow you to sleep at night, and that's IT!
So, since the Nephites were "wipped of them face of the land" due to their wicked ways, then the Lamanites were allowed to continue in the land...what...because of their RIGHTEOUS WAYS?? You've gotta be kidding me!! WTF?!?! That's insane.
Use that head of your's for more than a hat-rack!!
To iamtherealthing: are you a typical example of LDS/Mormon behavior and kindness?
Bullshit!
If Joe had any integrity he wouldn't have lied his ass off to Emma, the membership OR the community, concerning his polygamy. IF he had ANY integrity he would have stayed away from teenage girls and other men's wives. HE DID NOT!
IF he had any integrity he would have never threatened women with distruction for resisting polygamy (D&C 132:54). HE DID!
If he had integrity he would have asked Emma for permission to add wives to his harem (D&C 132:61). HE NEVER DID!
A liar til the end...
Columbus had "spritual convictions and divine mission"? A Catholic had a divine mission?!?!
Was this BEFORE or AFTER Joseph's statement that all churches (including Catholicism) were corrupt abominations?
If Columbus had a "divine mission" maybe HE was the "one and only true prophet" rather than Joseph?
Arythmnmaker
THAT'S where the problems with LDS Inc originated and it remains so today.
Why did LDS Inc do away with polygamy and racism? Because intelligent people with critical thinking skills and the balls to confront error and bigotry complained about it. Homophobia within the Church will also go the way of polygamy and racism. Why? Because it's the right thing to do...
Because of varying HUIMAN interpretations.
Same thing happened with Mormonism. Even tho they had 2 books of scripture (or is it 4) the Mormons fractured into over 20 different versions.
Smith's own wife and 2 sons broke off Mormonism and started their own version of LDS (along with other people)--the RLDS (now the Church of Christ).
IOW, Josephs extra book(s) didn't keep Mormonism together as a single belief structure either.
Thank you for this video upload. I've got the mormons coming round next week so I'm trying to be prepared to give them good arguements. I myself believe its a hard task to get them to know the truth about Jesus though its down to God to draw a man so I you have the time then could you pray for the meeting.
The very reason why we have fossil beds world wide in the number of trillions is from a world wide SUDDEN catastrophe involving WATER.
Like I said, watch the video I suggested and see the one to one comparison.
I don't think PD overtly wanted "derision" for himself or family. He was caught red in his lies--admitted such, justified it by saying that it "helped strengthen the faith of many members". He was relieved of his duties (Q70) over it. PUBLICLY, however, the excuse was given as "health". Anyone knowing his saga knows the public reason was face-saving bologne.
I don't believe he was alone in his "lying fer da Lard" position among the bretheren--and was likely THE REASON he was not Exed.
@scottwins2 I've always believed that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all separate. But i'm so confused right now. I'm starting to question all religion and I may consider just focusing on the Bible and interpreting it the way that I want and just be content with that versus attending a church that will have contradictions. I'm going to keep researching and studying and praying and see where it takes me.
There's no science that has "debunked" the BoM.
It's the clear and present LACK of science related to the BoM that shows it to be a fraud.
Very true.
However, I don't want to give the impression that I am or have ever judged LDS Inc based on the actions of it's lower echelon members (postive or negative) except in a general way illustrating the possible defective nature of a particular doctrine; ie. LDS internet porno use, their charity or their high use of psychotopic prescription drugs (Prozac, etc).
I DO judge LDS Inc based on doctrine (past or present) that make no sense, or that does not seem to conform to scripture (IMO).
You know this from what source?
While I respect anyone's beliefs and personal opinions, when I confront LDSism I am challenging OFFICIAL LDS Doctrine, not an individual Mormon's OPINION of it--which, most of the time, those opinions do not match the official doctrine.
I run into many who claim polygamy/racism was not doctrine. I'll show them their opinion is not correct. Many believe Joseph did not practice polygamy, or did not shoot and kill 2 of the mobbers at Carthage. I attempt to correct that misplaced opinion as well.
Why would they hide such a monumental discovery??--just to piss off Mormons??
@mollymu1 I agree, thats because its a carbon copy of the KJV version of the bible, in which Smith copied almost word for word, then added a few of his own words, that appears many times.
Read Walt Whitman's" leaves of grass" . Smith copied words from it also. words like ie ; Homer / Omer ..Moriah / Mosiah . Mantino / Manti . Kneph / Nephi . Sherman / Shurr.
The words like " Soul and body " also appear in Leaves of Grass AND the BOM.
Can someone explain toe why 1 John 2:6 isn't 2 Nephi 25:23
@mollymu1
The difference is we can trace the bom back to the con man and sexual preditor j smith. Sorry. Facts are facts.
@warwolfii equally hard to believe is the historic documentation that exposes
joseph smith for his deceptive practices and also his warren jeffs activity, Sandra Tanner who studied documentation and concluded smith was a sexual predator, she speaks of one specific case. you would think believers would want to know this stuff,
Why is it you think that these bretheren would EVER allow anything negative about them to ever be printed or said publically. Quite the contrary. Because of their position of power, they would allow ONLY the most rosy and benevolent, holy and righteous
pictures to be painted of them--for public consumption, of course.
This is the very thing that allowed Brigham to claim the "Indians" were the ones who perpetrated MMMassacre (led by his step-son)--and naive members belived it--for a 100 years.
Fair point.
EXCEPT for the fact that Joseph would have known of this Godly assistance in carrying 100 some pounds at a full gallop (while his gimpy leg must have been throbing painfully). If he WAS assisted, he'd surely said something about it. He DID NOT.
Therefore, saying he was assisted is merely making up a story (lie?) to support another larger lie.
We know about Samson/talking asses, etc--BECAUSE THEY WROTE IT DOWN!
There is N O T H I N G (recorded) to suggest that he had God's help.
Bill, I support your research and find it valid. What I don't understand is the testimony of the 8 and 3 witnesses. I just read them again in Whitmers book you mention here, they all claim an angel showed them to each and they saw the engravings. What is your view as to why these people, who all appear to be family members of Joseph Smith, would say something like this? Was LSD available in the 1820's or are they inebriated? I am being serious. I know you claim it was with spiritual eyes.
That's the very scripture LDS use when we draw attention to the Lies of LDS Inc.
But, Like every thing else in Mormonism, it a one-way street--for THEIR use ONLY.
In the REAL WORLD we call that a "double standard".
The Book a Marmin CERTAINLY doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny or even LOGICAL scrutiny. Mark Twain said, after reading it, "That book is chloroform in print"--and I concur (having read it 7/8 times cover to cover myself). BOM is what I'm
disputing.
As for creationism. I don't know anything about it. I hear it is an accepted theory among some--along with it's antithetical THEORY--The Big Bang. All I know for sure; the universe exists. HOW God accomplished it is of no concern to me.
Honestly I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to dispute. Put it however you like, neither the BoM or creationism stand up to scientific scrutiny.
its common knowledge her son an some others started it an she join it too
So science has found some neat stuff in Guatamala. Cool!
Can I ask what it is in particular that connects these Guatamalan ruins to Mormonism--to the Book of Mormon? Did they find some gold plates or some ancient writings that said that this city was named Zarahemla or some chariots and steel swords? Maybe some wheat or barley? Maybe some ancient Hebrew artifacts...like copies of the Torah?
What is the dating of this place?
The story came from the writings of Lucy Mack Smith, Joe's mother.
Search for:
"Lucy's Book, pp. 385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp. 104-105)".
OR, go to--" utlm. org/newsletters/no105. htm#Getting "--for Lucy's exact quote.
I'm not sure if you can trust Joseph's mother, tho. She may have had doubts--as Emma did. His mother DID stay faithful to her son's church til her death. Emma DID NOT. She joined the RLDS.
(Geeezzzz! Ya just can't trust ANYBODY these days, eh?
AND then accuse them of all sorts of trumped up BS. Why? Because they KNOW the membs will believe the words of their GAs and ignore the words of the whistleblowers--if they can just heap enough garbage on them--because everyone KNOWS an excommed member or apostate (as they are won't to call them) cannot be trusted to tell the truth--and are, in fact Satanic liars that are unable to speak ANY truth. Recent example: Grant Palmer wrote "Insider's view of Mormon Origins". They disfellowshipped him.
Imagine people of this "devious nature" becoming leaders. It seems VERY EASY to fool the masses of people. All that's needed is an honest face and a convincing voice.
Hitler is an example (without the honest face). Obama convinced the majority of voters that he alone could/would solve America's problems. He lied. George Bush LIED.
L. Ron Hubbard succeded in convincing millions that his way was right--MILLIONS!!
A PUBLIC LIFE is NOT indicative of a "holy" life. Joe Smith and BY are examples.
@JohnECocaine Evolution only proves Genesis false if you read Genesis literally. However, Genesis 1-2 wasn't mean to be taken literally, it is meant to be a liturgy which asserts God's sovereignty over creation. Those who read the first chapters of Genesis literally are bad at hermeneutics.
common knowledge means one who knows basic facts would know this having to go to a library is having to do research. She really did join the rlds with joseph jr out of bitterness an joseph jr not being choosen as prophet. how would saying emma joined the rlds be promoting a faith?
In your theory, the truth of a doctrine is unimportant. It's the positive effect it has on the people that's important. I really think that theory is what the LDS Church operates from--lies are okay as long as the faith of the believer in those lies elevates their lives and their conduct. "Truth" as Boyd K. Packer said, is not important, and can be, in fact, dangerous.
Makes sense to me...
I don't know if Columbus was crazy or not, but given the numbers of indians he butchered, it kinda points in that direction, doesn't it?
He thought he was in India and called the natives "Indians", but that would have been an easy mistake to make--given their worship of cows and the many snake-charmers he found there. Could happen to anybody...
I do, and will--tho, it's not important to me so much as the truth would be important to them--or SHOULD be. I sure catch a lot of shit for it.
I'm not complaining--it's all part of the "kill the messenger" game.
did anyone know besides me that king david an solomon didnt exist the time frame doesnt match up with the date of the ruins have been dated themselves theyre off by 100 years an king david isnt his real name. also did anyone know that "David killed off sauls family to stay king an was made king by the philistines not god
Their quantity is about the only thing they have in common, the thing about scientific theories is that they are based an observable facts & go through a process of scrutiny, just like a heliocentric universe, gravity, evolution,etc. The Big Bang has done this. Religious theories the exact opposite. Check out "Letters from the Earth" it's fantastic. To me they're all pretty ridicules, but Mormonism & Scientology kind of take the cake.
I've had and seen miracles of healings--and I'm not LDS.
Where is the Hebrew writing?
Big Bang *is* "accepted" by cosmologists.
In science something is "accepted" once the proof becomes overwhelming, especially when compared to other existing explanations.
Since there is no such thing as 100% proof in Nature nothing is ever "accepted" as being beyond challenge. All such acceptance is made provisionally. The proviso being that one day someone might come up with a better explanation.
In general that does not happen.
cont...
she didnt go because brigham was made prophet over josephs son
they didnt say it would happen at the beginning it said it would happen and it did the nephites were wiped off the face of the land and the lamanites were the ones left in the land and the lamanites lost their land to the spanish
Brigham's belief in the polygamy doctrine--changed his life for the better, how?--other than having 50 wives all doting over his superior sexual potency, virility and staying power.
Are you familiar with Paul Dunn-the dis-fellowshipped General Authority? He went around Church Firesides and told his inspiring stories of WWII and as a Pro Baseballer. Many lives were elevated by his stories. Come to find out a few years later, all his stories were lies--his excuse? It helped the faith of many.
Nope!
You have the info I need.
GIVE it to me...here...now.
Or, continue to put out lies. Jesus will be PROUD of you--risking your good,honest name like that...for Him!!
Right.
So the question SHOULD be, then, "what are you doing here"?
You don't even attempt to have a dialog. You get one challenging response and you fold up like a paper accordian.
Surely you can offer some logical reasons as to why you have Moroni with his horn on your most sacred buildings and not Jesus Christ? If you can't come up with some good reasons, hell, just make something up like most good Mormons do.
SOMETHING is better than nothing---
or is it?
DUH?!?!
You have a direct line to the Holy Ghost do you?
Here I thought I was the only one that did.
Anyway, next time you hear from him say "hi" for me.
ok an emma didnt join the rlds she helped start it with her son joseph