Technically speaking, the internal data refers to them as "Catacombs Magician", but another modder, Ivi, pointed out that the "magician" term was localized as "sorcerer" in other examples, such as with the "Pyroxene Magicians" becoming Glintstone Sorcerers. The whole mixup with the "Putrescence Sorcerer" title just seems to have started from someone reading a modder's placeholder name list and assuming it was official, but I was able to confirm with the modder in question that they came up with the name themself and only used it because they thought at the time that their spells looked similar to the Putrescence ones.
Hey, Zullie, I came across a major (I think) inspiration on GRRM or Myazaki when making Elden Ring, but I have no way to contact you with it, seeing as I don't use FB, X, Insta, or Reddit... =/
The Item-description of Rancorcall mentions how Garris the necromancer "rediscovered" the old death hex, which was thought to have been lost. Perhaps the catacomb sorcerers are some of the original users of death-sorceries. Their unique sorceries are likely among the truly lost sorceries as the only people using them are trapped in the lands of shadow and likely unable to pass them on.
I have a question zullie, do you think if from soft ever make an elden ring 2 they will dulge into death cult, like for real? What I mean by that is : Godskin/Gloam Eye Queen, Godwyn (of course) Death Birds (Helphen/Twinbird) or anything going in this direction?
In the Ainsel river and the lake of rot, we can see giant stone statues representing an old man dressed with a cloth, having a long beard. These statues are also holding a baby against their chest (or a cocoon I don’t remember well). Do you think there is a link between these and the catacombs sorcerers ?
I agree. Look at the smile on that babys face. It knows that lore hunters will try to decipher its mening and also that there is no answer in the lore 😂
Looks like if you fight them up close, you may just be able to catch glimpses of the face peeking out when they move a certain way or fall down... Just enough to make you go 'wtf' without it being outright visible, which would potentially get them in trouble ratings wise like it's theorized Ocelot would have in DS3 (likely why he was made invisible). Most people would probably miss it entirely, but the few that did notice right away would get that extra creep factor, and gradually through word of mouth people would learn about it, seek it out, and then creators like Zullie here would show it off.
[I wrote this under the pinned comment, but I like it enough to post it again on it's own] The Item-description of Rancorcall mentions how Garris the necromancer "rediscovered" the old death hex, which was thought to have been lost. Perhaps the catacomb sorcerers are some of the original users of death-sorceries. Their unique sorceries are likely among the truly lost sorceries as the only people using them are trapped in the lands of shadow and likely unable to pass them on.
Could they also be trapped by that very sorcery, unable to die? Perhaps effectively cursed to decay further and further with their charges by the very magic they use to defend themselves.
Seems like a solid idea. I was likewise thinking that they had it before Godwin's death, and we're now only just finding it. My theory of why Godwin is there is that the presence of death magic/energy has basically called Godwin's visage to the Shadow Catacombs, and the two groups are just naturally converging.
Possible place for them to fit: As counterparts to the deathbed companions. The deathbed companions lay with the old/dead to give new life. These Sorcerers carry the newly borne to fuel their sorceries.
I was JUST about to comment something similar about their likeliness to the deathbed companions. We know that the spell Fia's Mist falls under the other death-related sorceries like Rancorcall and Explosive Ghostflame, so perhaps it wouldn't be entirely out of the realm of possibility that deathbed companions *would* have known of those forgotten magics. We also know that when we first talk to Fia, she mentions that where she's from the act of being a deathbed companion is sacred. I don't remember if it is ever confirmed on where she's from, but knowing death magic and the association of those sorceries to the other styles of death and rebirth, it might be worth looking into for connections of her home being the shadowlands, since we see SO much in terms of ancient burial, death rite birds, and other npc death sorceries there?
I was thinking the same thing. Some other version of the Deathbed tradition? Maybe over time, the resurrection drains the life from the Companion, shriveling them away?
Im fairly certain the cursemark symbol being used for some of the sorcerer's spells isn't a sign they are loyal to Godwyn. As Zulie pointed out in the video, other ghostflame spells also used the symbol, and many of these spells only have a tangential relationship to godwyn at best. I think its also important to notethat the reason Godwyn possesses the cursemark is because half of it was carved into him during the night of black knives, with the other half being carved into Ranni. Given that, it seems reasonable to me to say the cursemark is likely a symbol of death generally, as it had to have been known about before Godwyn's murder if it was carved into him. But thats just my interpretation.
While I'd have to double check on the specifics, I wonder if some of the things that are more explicitly aimed at Godwyn share the two-sided or twinned symbol that gets represented with the Mending Rune of the Death Prince (2:24) against the more general symbol of death which uses the one-sided circle. Kinda like how Death can manifest either as death blight, which seems to be more associated with Godwyn in things like the Eclipse Shotel and Death Lightning, vs ghostflame, which shows up in like Rancorcall or death bird weapons. It is also interesting to note that the death knight helm and weapons seem to be decorated with the full circle symbol, stated to be a decayed golden wheel.
@Jergy2 That's a valid perspective, I definitely forgot about the death knight Helm model/description. However, I think if any part of the cursemark is associated with Godwyn explicitly, it would be the half wheel. Since only half of the cursemark was carved into him.
I definitely think the Cursemark predates the Golden Order. Godwyn and Rannis deaths predated The Shattering and therefore they didnt inherit Great Runes (Ranni is said to have discarded hers) But the only Rune associated with Godwyn is the cursemark, despite it not being a piece of the Elden Ring. I'd Assume his knights bear the completed Rune out of a desire for what they wish to manifest.
Consider, the mending rune of death is two cursemarks, creating a sun shape. Fire is repeatedly associated with death. (Ghostflame being used to burn the dead, black flame and destined death, the "spirituality" of messmer's flame and the burning boat burials) And flame is in turn pretty easily associated with the sun. The Fell God's icon, the flame of the tell god spell, the fire giant's eye having spirals (!) evocative of solar currents, etc. I'd even lump in Messmer's orb as being a possible "dark sun" akin to ranni's dark moon. And finally, the sun has one direct connection to the sun, in that the eclipse is apparently a subversion of death. I feel like It's safe to say, the cursemark and the sun in general are very old symbols of death, probably related to the age of ghostflame.
@Ezekiel_Allium really good points, what gets me about it as well is that the eclipse shotel is also a half crescent so they went super deep on this idea of split sun shapes and death
@@FaxandNoMachines umm excuse me sir that is blatant character assassination Mr King Oceiros would never cave his baby's skull in. Only his imaginary baby's.
Ghost babies drowned alive with their mothers Baby born between a cosmic being and a tragic lady, along with babies simply described as red jellies or a stone Baby slammed to death by old man with dragon fetish At least this baby just seems dead
@pixelspy5791 C'mon, divine bird feathers came with the same dlc as the ricochet. From's balancing is almost never around pvp for the MOST part, it's just generally terrible, even in older titles.
Also, like the Grand Archives Scholars - they also automatically detect you within a certain range even if you make no sound, so you can't stealth past or sneak up to backstab them.
Do they? I snuck up on the one in Darklight with no trouble - he shot at me when I was below him, but approaching from the back never caused him to aggro.
@@TrippyTimesTwo In Darklight, there's one that's near the Death Knight Armor starts immobile and facing away from you. Even if you're crouching with the Black Knife armor, he will automatically turn around and attack when you reach a certain proximity.
@@PierceArner Oh yeah, I assume he’s a programmed detection, because he’s guarding the armour, so that makes sense. Your comment suggests they all do it, which I don’t think they do.
@@PierceArner certain individual enemies in specific locations are definitely scripted to catch you trying to sneak up on them, but it doesn't necessarily mean the enemy type as a whole auto-detects.
Honestly the concept of matherhood/childhood isn't new in the dls, and strikingly there is a direct association to sorcery that is found with Metyr. There, the fingercreepers are revealed to be offspring of the Mother of Fingers. Also Ymir holds a baby fingercreeper. So maybe there is a parallel between the finger's history, intertwined with babies and with death sorcery having the same connection
Another case of fromsoft making a cool spell for one specific enemy that the player doesn’t have access to 😕 (looking at you freaky tongue incantation)
Ahh, dear little Ocelotte. Where have you gone? Are you hiding from me? Come out, come out, don't be afraid. You were born a child of dragons, what could you possibly fear? Now, now, show yourself, Ocelotte. My dear, little Ocelotte.
If I remember my lore correctly, ghostflame is the result of burning bodies, specifically bones. Before Erdtree burial became a thing, cremation seems to have been the most common method of body disposal (per the rancor pot description IIRC). Ghostflame is associated with the Deathrite Birds, and the skulls summoned by the Spell showcased in the video are cloaked in black feathers. My theory is that these Catacomb Sorcerers might be practicioners of the Deathrite faith. Aligned with Death, they could have been hanging out in the Catacombs of The Land of Shadow since well before Marika rose to power, and the Basilisks and Deathknights are newer arrivals due to Godwyns incursion into the Lands of Shadow via the root system.
My headcannon is that those "babys" are stillborn, and give the sorcerer some kind of "connection" to those who live in death or death magic itself as a catalyst...maybe...
i only just now noticed the deathbird feathers coming out of the rancor skulls while watching the clip at 2:12 , thats a really neat detail. always thought it was just like wispy black smoke or something
It's an actual sculpture from real life. I forget the name, but a lot of the architecture in Elphael is directly inspired by a particular cathedral or something like that.
At Fromsoft developer's office: "Hey, look what I made from those wax sorcerers!" "Why did you do it?" "I thought, it would look cool..." "Neat, let's put it in the game!"
I'm sure this is more true than people think XD People go on about the rich and textured lore, but half of it is barely-there innuendo people are free to interpret as they wish.
@tsm688 that might be true, but also people from Fromsoft: "don't forget to put something that make him relevant with the game" It might as simple as it sound, it still something that need to be appreciated and I believe people who digging lore like Zully - that finding similarity within the franchise - simply found it as amusing rather than judge it as a lazy attempt to recycle asset.
So it might have nothing to do with it, but it reminds me of an old bit of Dungeons and Dragons lore. Liches, spellcasters who have conquered death and become immortal through a phylactery, have to undergo a special ritual to become one. There's little concrete info on it but one bit of lore suggests it needs a baby and an elderly person. One at the start of their life and one at the end of theirs. This seems similar, an old man cradling an infant. It could be that they underwent a similar ritual or are the product of one. Alternatively they could be using the dead child to draw power of death from them.
I definitely interpret Godwin as a form of lich lord since in traditional fromsoft fashion seeking the unnatural prolonging of life either requires a full rethinking of what your life is or unintended consequences. I could also consider Ranni a lich lord. However we're faced still with Ranni having to rethink what life is and Godwin facing her unintended consequences. Usually liches are interpreted as still decaying despite undeath in dnd. Godwin is a lich that subverts expectations. In lore though it appears there were several forces interested in reviving Godwin, and they all had different ways to go about it. Perhaps there were death priests or death sorcerers who sought to revive Godwin by making him into a lich. The sorcerers could just be flavor text to tell us that Godwin is undead and that just as in life, other people are imposing a will on his body.
A bit of a side tangent, but I had a weird thought about this Litch-making ritual. For some reason, I pictured that the Litch would be the old man in the ritual, which is why they always look... old. But then I thought "What if the ritual went wrong, and the wrong person became the litch?" Thus, I present to you: THE BABY LITCH!
interesting fact is that godwyn had a wetnurse who is a fingerreader crone found in the deeproot depths. her VA is even credited as "Wet nurse" Could be an homage or reference to that
I like all Zullie videos, but I''ve come to like paying particular attention to the ones featuring this specific background music, helps the immersion!
@@Based_investorzullie usually credits all the music used in a given video in the description, if you’re ever curious, but mostly the selection orbits around older FROM ost tracks or Zelda, I’ve noticed. This particular video is using the “central tower” theme from King’s Field IV.
Death sorcery was a thing entirely separate from Godwyn’s movement; Godwyn became the leader of this faction by inheritance. We know from the Deathbirds and people like Necromancer Garris or the Fallen Hawks that Death sorcery and ghostflame vastly predate Godwyn, possibly even the Erdtree itself. These Catacombs Sorcerers may just be glintstone sorcerers who took up the school of Death sorcery.
A line from the sorcery GhostFlame Explosion: “In the time when there was no Erdtree, death was burned in ghostflame. Deathbirds were the keepers of that fire.” Yeah Ghostflame predates the Erdtree
Their potential connection to ghostflame could indicate they were the original keepers of the catacombs, back when the deathrite birds and the ghostflame governed death rituals. This could explain why we only see them in the land of shadow, where all things death end up after being "discarded" from the lands between.
That's very good to have cleared up, I figured it had to have come from internal data somehow since nothing about them has anything to do with putrescence as they are in game. Makes nothing but sense that they aren't actually called that anywhere!
Something interesting about these mages' "Glintstone" sorceries is that they actually seem to be made out of bone. As for the mages themselves, I get the impression that they killed those infants for power, perhaps akin to what Necromancer Garris might have done to his family, based on his Family Heads weapon. Additionally, based on the Death Rite Birds, these evil powers seem to derive strength from almost collecting the dead.
I would call them Ghostflame or Death Rite Sorcerers to tie them back to the Ghostflame or Death Rite Birds. As for their design, the Centipede wheel is the "complete" cycle of death as seen in the Lands Of Shadow and Ghostflame, which is why they have children, as a symbol of the completed cycle of death and birth/rebirth. The fragmented Centipede wheel is what was carved into Godwyn and Ranni when they were slain and Death was broken and is thus a symbol for him made from an older symbol, like the Elden Ring and the symbol at the back of Maliketh's arena. Also, for the origins of the Death Rite Sorcerers, I suspect they were there before Godwyn and his knights, since they appear in Darklight Catacombs, which is without Deathblight entirely.
Considering the timeline the dlc helps us understand. I think it's telling us the conundrum about death existed before the golden order and the elden ring. Maybe godwyn himself hijacked something older and is now part of what is essentially the natural cycle/order of the land between.
It's possible that the sorcerers not counting as Those who Live in Death is just a mistake similar to Miquella's remembrance spell not being boosted by the dryleaf seal initially. Granted that these guys have a much more minor role they could have just been overlooked.
Just a theory im comming up with on the spot, but perhaps these sorcerers are deathbed companions? Given Godwyn’s infestation of these catacombs, it stands to reason that all corpses within have been tainted, which would have tainted these companions by proxy, but since they were still alive, rather than living in death, they are now dying in life. It would also explain the infant and their use of death flame.
Or, to run with that, perhaps they were *woken* by deathbed companions after their deaths, but had been infected by deathblight before being resurrected by the life force of champions? Or perhaps they found a way to mimic the power of a deathbed companion by stealing life from a small child?
There's a lot of flavor to the idea that these sorcerers were once fathers who lost their children, and offered to become Deathbed Companions to them while protecting the catacombs. If the dead have a bad habit of getting up and roaming around, you would want a steward with a devotion that doesn't rest. These dads just want to make sure the kids sleep peacefully.
Something i saw on another video is there's a godwyn in a shadow of the erdtree catacomb with a detailed arm not seen in other godwyn bodies, and the godwyn in stormveil has teeth on its underside in rows, also not seen on the godwyn corpse. Its theorized that the godwyns outside of the main corpse are pieces of him, referred to as relics akin to saint's body parts
In the base game, the way the cursemark of the centipede was described made it sound like something in a sense pre-existing, at least as a concept, and the split deaths of Ranni's body and Godwyn's soul is what brought it into reality. So I'd believe that the cursemark of the centiepede and sorceries related to it might already have existed, just not within the lands between as no demigod had died since the formation of the golden order. Perhaps there might have even been such marks in ages past, but wiped clean upon the creation of a new order and the sealing of Destined Death.
The "Death" symbol definitely predates Godwyn, as it's the symbol Ranni carved into her body and Godwyn's soul for the ritual on the Night of the Black Knives. Given that Ranni used a piece of the Rune of Death, this suggests that the Elden Ring taps into already existing forces given the difference between the Rune of Death (Red slashes) and the Death Sorceries and Deathflame (Black, cold fire, skulls) - Most likely the Deathbirds and their associated god - As seemingly the "Destined Death" is more related to the prior Death Sorceries than the Rune of Death itself. This would likely explain how the Elden Ring manages to have so much power over the world, if there were existing powers that affected certain things (Like Deathbirds controlling death) which were hijacked by the Elden Ring. Also, it would explain why the Death Sorceries suck so much. If the Elden Ring is messing with their source of power they would in fact be weakened.
Worth noting that death (the part where you die) and death (the rituals surrounding it) are generally treated as two very different things in most mythologies, handled by completely separate deities and ritual frameworks. Destined Death seems to just be the "everyone dies eventually" rune that was removed, meanwhile other types of death--black flame, cold flame, etc--are separate understandings of it and related to different rituals and deities.
Suck so much? All the Ghostflame related ones are decent and I’d even say Rings of Spectral Light and Ancient Death Rancor are really good, Explosive Ghostflame can also do crazy damage… if you land it lul
The cradled baby on their chest reminds me of D's armor, and he's closely related to the lore of Those Who Live In Death. So there may have been an attempt to develop the background of the armor he wears in connection to these sorcerers from the Realm of Shadow
With regards to the baby and lack of anti-death weakness, the grim connection might be that the babies are still completely alive - With their lifeforce and physical beings directly connected to the sorcerer, allowing the magician to Live in Death without some of the disadvantages of doing so. Just my threory.
I'm thinking the opposite is true; the sorcerers are ex-Carian sorcerers who have come to worship death. They take on stillborns who latch onto them to suckle life from them until they are skin and bones. The babies are in the fetal position and a lot of emphasis is put on rebirth when it comes to anything involving death. They give up their lives to provide for and to nurture babies born in death. Much like Godwyn himself, these babies latch onto the living and spread their taint until the host becomes a nursing bed for death. After all, everyone involved with death seems extremely charitable, loyal, and devoted to helping others. Deathbed companions sleep with the dead to provide peace, these sorcerers nurse stillborns to give them life.
I love these videos - no other makes me sit at the edge of my seat going "well what IS the in-code name for that!?" as I'm waiting for the text to scroll to the answer, but never skipping to it.
Those...are not infant skull proportions. Huh. I wonder if the vaguely Celtic theme of the DLC extends to the Ancient Irish Nipple Thing being crossed with northern Eurpoean witch-folklore relating to the feeding of familiars here.
A lot of the ghostflame and pre-Order funerary stuff seems tied to infant motifs. Seeing that these sorcerers have the little baby and use ghostflame immediately reminded me of the weird baby-like head that the deathbirds have! Maybe newborns link the cycle of life and death, and humans using one like this acts as a conduit for casting ghostflame magic? Also, hehe death stranding wizards
Deathbirds are older than Godwyn, so these Magicians might be servants of them. This would explain why it looks like one of the Catacomb Magicians seemed to have killed the missing Death Knight.
My theory: they are gravekeepers of old, predating Godwyn's death and serving the Twinbird. The child reminds me of the of the priests clinging to the Death Rite Bird wings, and the Twinned armor design might be a form of mockery of the death ritual.
The catacombs probably predate the Erdtree, as they are lit by ghostflame. The cremation urns were probably from before Marika repurposed the catacombs, and the empty shelves probably held corpses but were emptied and the corpses taken to the excavated roots.
I have been greatly enjoying all of these new Godwyn concepts in the DLC, but something has been bothering me about the Death Knight's design since launch- their sunray crown. It reminded me of Gwyndolin at first, which is likely an older inspiration, but then I began to consider the connections to the Eclipse in the base game- particularly the Shotel and Sun Realm Shield. The Eclipse was always intriguing to me, and clearly never got fleshed out, so I would love to see a dive into what these new Eclipse connotations might mean. Love your work Zullie
It might be their idea of what a symbol for the Age of the Duskborn looks like. If Fia's rune is applied, it tries to look golden instead of keeping its normal white color, even though it clearly doesn't mesh well with the rest of the Elden Ring or anything else.
I know that they are not technically "Those who live in death", but they are close enough, even without the extra damage from holy. But the fact that they can use a form of glintstone magic seems to me to be very strange. It's like the nailstone magic, it seems related to glintstone but something marks it as completely different. Glintstone just travels in one direction and when in contact with a surface, it explodes or disintegrates. However, much like the nailstone, this form of glintstone that the catacombs sorcerer uses can change direction. Spiral shard, Glintsone stars, and star shower all can follow and somewhat track an enemy, same with the other glintstone sorcery's. However, they cannot make sharp turns like in nailstone, or ricochet like in the catacomb sorcerer's sorcery. Perhaps this is another form of sorcery that branched off of glintstone, like the glintblade or night sorcery's. Sorry for rambling.
What's especially crazy is that it's the second time it happens to this specific enemy. When the page was first created, they named it "Inquisitor" for some reason, and the actual hornsent Inquisitors were labelled "Tree Shamans" which would be a hell of a doozy lore-wise. EDIT: Mild correction, it was "Horned Shaman". I know this because the old page is still up for some reason.
@@Dinoman972 What bugs me the most about Fextralife isn't that they rush to label everything, even if that label is wrong, but that the mods will swiftly and angrily remove corrections and replace them with the original (incorrect) information. I'm pretty sure the whole debacle over the Raptor Talons' erroneous claim of 55% extra jump attack damage being proven wrong, changed, and constantly reverted back to 55% with an angry "stop changing this" note is the most recent example. In fact, up until relatively recently, I'm fairly positive they still refused to remove that value despite having the correct values shown as "tentative numbers that require confirmation." If you go there now it finally only shows the correct values. Gotta love mods on power trips.
@@ForeverLaxx yeah the whole site is a fucking mess. its hilarious they had mod approval comments only on dlc launch and were still passing the most obtusively toxic, obviously trolling comments while rejecting informative ones, or ones pointing out the disparit
It's genuinely a shame that we didn't get access to the Catacomb Sorcerer's Black Glintstone spells. Both because they are really cool spells conceptually (albeit they'd probably be way worse in open air environments), and because they'd possibly had expounded on what the deal was with the sorcerers in the first place
I thought of them as either necromancers or a similar school of magic, similar to a Litch being a necromancer made undead, these guys are necromancers rather than being revived by blight, have either an older rite based in ghostflame for their revival, or are in fact not yet truely dead. Living still in their animated husks. There are mentions and appearances of necromancers in the lands between, and their “baby” could have something to due with rancor, and how anguish invites vengeful spirits to be used by Neceomancers similar to Neceomacer Garris and his flail. Fetishes of the dead seem to accrue rancor, ones from especially tragic and painful cases seem to attract it even more so. At least thats how I saw it :p
Yup, the same idea was the first that came to me. Probably, these sorcerers were like D, hunters put them there to destroy the dead as they rise. But Godwyn's presence turned them into something different.
This is purely speculation, but considering they are in the Lands of Shadow (which seems more accepting of other forms of "death management" which the erdtree supplanted), I would hazard a guess that they are the intended stewards of all catacombs, and the reason they don't show up in the Lands Between is because the golden order seem to have 'hijacked' these catacombs for their own erdtree burial and probably eliminated the old stewards who were there. I'm basing this on the fact they have ghostflame sigils pop up for their spells, and are unaffected by Golden order Fundamentalist incantations like Those Who Live In Death are, so they seem more related to the deathbirds than Godwyn.
I hadn't realized just how mysterious this enemy actually is... hm... At a glance, I would assume they're aligned with the Death Knights in some capacity. But, if that weren't necessarily the case, could they be aligned with Ymir? He notably also performs and teaches Fingernail Sorcery, which is identified by the ricochet feature. In the same vein, Ymir and these sorcerers both display their combined intelligence and faith through the magic they perform. It seems plausible there's some greater association here, as opposed to the Death Knights; Which seem to predominantly utilize Faith, alongside physical stats.
I don't think it actually is fingernail sorcery. Nail sorceries don't ricochet off surfaces, they instead re-adjust their angle repeatedly to hone in on targets. Plus, I think they look a bit different. Not to mention the deathmark symbol being shown when the sorcerers cast them, something that Nail sorceries don't have.
@@darthplagueis13 I had this thought as well shortly after posting my comment, but I hadn't gotten around to an edit yet. I still need to reanalyze either spells, but thank you for the swift follow up!
0:11 Godwyn being the equivalent of Baldur from Norse mythology as he was killed by a mistletoe and his death had set off the chain of events that led to Ragnarok.
@@aiasfree correct me if im wrong, but isnt that a later christianisation of norse mythology (the kind of adaptation of native beliefs that was used nearly everywhere to make converting more appealing (like how in japan missionaries told the people jesus was a buddha)
@@minte1972 Ehhh, kinda sorta? Some parts of recorded Norse mythology are probably influenced by Christianity because of how long the two existed in the same region before one of them became the official religion, but to what extent the Poetic Edda itself was influenced by Christianity is up to debate. IIRC, the poem first popped up in the 10th century when Christianity and nordic beliefs coexisted in the region. If it is true that the Voluspa was influenced by Christian beliefs, then it'd be more nordic cultures attempting to conflate Jesus with Baldr more than later christians attempting to rewrite Norse religion.
@ZulliethebWitch My mind just made an unlikely connection, but the way the baby lay on the mages’s body is much like how Fia lays on Godwyn during the stage when you can access the dragon fight through her. Idk if this means anything but just a thought
2:07 The item description on the Cursemark of Death says that the symbol was meant to be a full wheel but was split into two, with one half killing Ranni's body and the other half killing Godwyn's soul. This already implies that it's not a symbol of Godwyn, but a symbol of death. The baby may be a parallel to Fia's gestation of the Mending Rune of the Death Prince, the Great Rune received after she lays with the Prince of Death. Perhaps the baby is its rune, and perhaps the rune is a baby.
I think what's interesting is that the catacombs play an inverse role in the Land of Shadow compared to the catacombs in the Lands Between. In the former, they are meant to be a form of punishment. Essentially, people are fed directly to Godwyn's corpse and are subjected to life after death while plagued with Godwyn's rot. The people running the catacombs are loyal servants of Godwyn. The death knights guard the cadaver surrogates and presumably, these sorcerers then would care for those living out their afterlives within the catacomb. Much like how the death knights were once royal golden knights, these sorcerers may have once been proud Carian sorcerers who had abandoned their stone masks in lieu of taking on a new symbol; dead children living after their deaths, gestating upon them waiting for birth in their new afterlives. A huge emphasis was placed on birth after death in the base game, it makes sense to have it take a literal form in the DLC. If you take a closer look at the children, they are in a fetal position. As symbols of Godwyn, they are literal representations of what his corpse is all about.
Huh? People in TLB aren't intentionally "fed" to Godwyn's corpse as a punishment, none of the factions in power would even want to do that since deathblight is considered a dangerous infestation. If any of the major factions wants to punish someone, they have way more direct ways of doing it. The only people that would even consider actually burying someone with the intent of deathblighting them and making them undead are Death cultists, which don't view that as a punishment and more like worship of Godwyn.
Because they never added these undead guys spells I thought I missed something in the catacombs and were looking around them for hours, thanks Michael Zaki
The baby is weird. The other enemies we know to be carrying a baby are the abductor virgins. They are often related to Messmer considering the whole snake stuff, even there's no confirmation of any sort it does remind him. And now, those magicians also related to Godwyn within their aspect and power. It's so unsettling.
The abductor virgins are Rykard's minions not Messmer's. The baby is possibly a reference to Rykard's fathering of the snake people and the virgins themselves resemble Tanith, Rykard's consort who would as such be the snake people's foster mother in the case of Rya.
Great job, Zullie, it's always a great to see someone dedicated to making sure even tiny details and inconsistencies, like an enemy being improperly named on the wiki, are noticed and patiently and nonjudgmentally corrected. Those details may seem petty to some, but even the tiniest incorrection could very easily have major lore implications that reframe how we see the game's world. Those sorcerers stuck out to me as weirdly out-of-place for the catacombs, it feels especially telling that they aren't classed among Those Who Live in Death. They could just be random enemies tossed in for the mechanical challenges they add, but I can't help but wonder if they have some relation to the priests that worship the Death Rite Birds. Another oddity that strikes me is the point about the Cursemark of Death... it is obviously not the same thing as the rune of Destined Death, which begs the question... if incorporating the Full Wheel of the Centipede into the Elden Ring leads to an "Order [that] will be one of Death restored", but it's not Destined Death... Could the centipede mark actually be a rune that was once a part of the Elden Ring during an earlier age?
whenever I think of death magic and ghostflame in this game, I think of the deathbirds. There seems to be some distinction between basegame's deathbird bosses and the somewhat lesser DLC gravebirds.
“The Deathbirds are graveyard fire keepers; it is said they rake out the ashen remains of the dead from their kilns.” I assume in the base game, the Death Birds fulfill the above purpose, and shepherd those who aren’t buried at the Erdtree to the Land of Shadow, where their lesser siblings tend to the graves of those that appear there. “Gravebirds are ancient golems, created to guard the spiritgraves built where all manners of Death ultimately drift.” I think the distinction is the Deathbirds are “living” beings, they are said to be “born” from the twinbird Outer God, although this could very much mean that they are also constructs, given FromSoft wording. They are shepherds and caretakers, and gravebirds are watchers and guardians, albeit lesser.
Technically speaking, the internal data refers to them as "Catacombs Magician", but another modder, Ivi, pointed out that the "magician" term was localized as "sorcerer" in other examples, such as with the "Pyroxene Magicians" becoming Glintstone Sorcerers. The whole mixup with the "Putrescence Sorcerer" title just seems to have started from someone reading a modder's placeholder name list and assuming it was official, but I was able to confirm with the modder in question that they came up with the name themself and only used it because they thought at the time that their spells looked similar to the Putrescence ones.
Thanks for going the extra mile to get all the facts, this kind of attention to detail is part of what makes your channel great
Hey, Zullie, I came across a major (I think) inspiration on GRRM or Myazaki when making Elden Ring, but I have no way to contact you with it, seeing as I don't use FB, X, Insta, or Reddit... =/
The Item-description of Rancorcall mentions how Garris the necromancer "rediscovered" the old death hex, which was thought to have been lost. Perhaps the catacomb sorcerers are some of the original users of death-sorceries. Their unique sorceries are likely among the truly lost sorceries as the only people using them are trapped in the lands of shadow and likely unable to pass them on.
I have a question zullie, do you think if from soft ever make an elden ring 2 they will dulge into death cult, like for real?
What I mean by that is : Godskin/Gloam Eye Queen, Godwyn (of course) Death Birds (Helphen/Twinbird) or anything going in this direction?
In the Ainsel river and the lake of rot, we can see giant stone statues representing an old man dressed with a cloth, having a long beard. These statues are also holding a baby against their chest (or a cocoon I don’t remember well). Do you think there is a link between these and the catacombs sorcerers ?
congrats to the Catacombs Sorcerer on winning the custody battle against the Abductor Virgin
Underrated comment
They threw out the Abductor Virgin's case when they realized she couldn't be the birth mother.
@@23Scadu Not unless you ask Saint Mary!... Who presumably doesnt exist, even as a mythological figure, in this world.
It hit me recently that the Abductor Virgins might be modeled after Tanith and what she did to him.
@@Captain1nsaneothank you for the contribution to my headcanon
And here we see a dedicated single father bringing his child to work.
Sorry, I meant a desiccated single father.
Ha!
The rare funny youtube comment
I have never seen a better joke. I wheezed
I had to do a double take on this one. Well played. 🤣
Hah
I like the idea that from software add things like the baby to just fuck with us.
There's definitely a known in-house reason for them but it's something you could never figure out without more info.
I agree. Look at the smile on that babys face. It knows that lore hunters will try to decipher its mening and also that there is no answer in the lore 😂
Looks like if you fight them up close, you may just be able to catch glimpses of the face peeking out when they move a certain way or fall down... Just enough to make you go 'wtf' without it being outright visible, which would potentially get them in trouble ratings wise like it's theorized Ocelot would have in DS3 (likely why he was made invisible). Most people would probably miss it entirely, but the few that did notice right away would get that extra creep factor, and gradually through word of mouth people would learn about it, seek it out, and then creators like Zullie here would show it off.
Isn't DS 3 rated 17+?
I think most of Elden Ring is complete nonsense in this exact way and that a lot of the lore is blatantly unfinished.
Spots in Daycares are hard to get by in the Lands of Shadow, so they take their kids to work.
They're the daycare workers.
Maybe the catacombs are their homes and they're a stay at home dad
@@AnitaHanjaabFR Ah yes, the evolution of "don't give up, skeleton".
I thought childcare was easy in the land of shadow. You just drop your kid off in the pot.
Don’t ever talk to me or my son ever again
*throws ricocheting pebble*
don't ever me or ever my ever again, EVER.
@@mateo0123 bbrrbrbrbrbr peww pew pew kleng kleng klang
@@106640guyplin plin plon
They're the deathbed companion, the baby is their offspring
The way the child is cradled reminds me of the twinned armour set.
this is immediately what i thought. perhaps instead of representing D’s twin brother, the child on his armor is related to these guys
[I wrote this under the pinned comment, but I like it enough to post it again on it's own]
The Item-description of Rancorcall mentions how Garris the necromancer "rediscovered" the old death hex, which was thought to have been lost. Perhaps the catacomb sorcerers are some of the original users of death-sorceries. Their unique sorceries are likely among the truly lost sorceries as the only people using them are trapped in the lands of shadow and likely unable to pass them on.
Could they also be trapped by that very sorcery, unable to die? Perhaps effectively cursed to decay further and further with their charges by the very magic they use to defend themselves.
Seems like a solid idea. I was likewise thinking that they had it before Godwin's death, and we're now only just finding it. My theory of why Godwin is there is that the presence of death magic/energy has basically called Godwin's visage to the Shadow Catacombs, and the two groups are just naturally converging.
Sam, this next package needs to go to catacombs in the land of shadow. Please reconnect it to America.
Gotta appreciate the reference to the very first Strand-type game
Keep on keeping on!👍
@@jasv49 The E in Elden Ring stands for Elden Ring
@@feeblecursedone2540no it stands for
EDeath Stranding
i was thinking the same thing ive been playing it on pc 🤣
The baby is clearly piloting the corpse like a stinky mech suit.
It's clearly a reference to Death Stranding. /s
Disheveled Core
@@LordDragox412
I mean, something death-related, an old man with a baby on his chest. Connections can be made.
Wouldn't be all that strange in this series.
More like Ratatouille, but it's pulling the dude's chesthair to control him instead.
Possible place for them to fit: As counterparts to the deathbed companions. The deathbed companions lay with the old/dead to give new life. These Sorcerers carry the newly borne to fuel their sorceries.
I was JUST about to comment something similar about their likeliness to the deathbed companions. We know that the spell Fia's Mist falls under the other death-related sorceries like Rancorcall and Explosive Ghostflame, so perhaps it wouldn't be entirely out of the realm of possibility that deathbed companions *would* have known of those forgotten magics.
We also know that when we first talk to Fia, she mentions that where she's from the act of being a deathbed companion is sacred.
I don't remember if it is ever confirmed on where she's from, but knowing death magic and the association of those sorceries to the other styles of death and rebirth, it might be worth looking into for connections of her home being the shadowlands, since we see SO much in terms of ancient burial, death rite birds, and other npc death sorceries there?
I was thinking the same thing. Some other version of the Deathbed tradition? Maybe over time, the resurrection drains the life from the Companion, shriveling them away?
Im fairly certain the cursemark symbol being used for some of the sorcerer's spells isn't a sign they are loyal to Godwyn. As Zulie pointed out in the video, other ghostflame spells also used the symbol, and many of these spells only have a tangential relationship to godwyn at best. I think its also important to notethat the reason Godwyn possesses the cursemark is because half of it was carved into him during the night of black knives, with the other half being carved into Ranni. Given that, it seems reasonable to me to say the cursemark is likely a symbol of death generally, as it had to have been known about before Godwyn's murder if it was carved into him. But thats just my interpretation.
While I'd have to double check on the specifics, I wonder if some of the things that are more explicitly aimed at Godwyn share the two-sided or twinned symbol that gets represented with the Mending Rune of the Death Prince (2:24) against the more general symbol of death which uses the one-sided circle. Kinda like how Death can manifest either as death blight, which seems to be more associated with Godwyn in things like the Eclipse Shotel and Death Lightning, vs ghostflame, which shows up in like Rancorcall or death bird weapons.
It is also interesting to note that the death knight helm and weapons seem to be decorated with the full circle symbol, stated to be a decayed golden wheel.
@Jergy2 That's a valid perspective, I definitely forgot about the death knight Helm model/description. However, I think if any part of the cursemark is associated with Godwyn explicitly, it would be the half wheel. Since only half of the cursemark was carved into him.
I definitely think the Cursemark predates the Golden Order. Godwyn and Rannis deaths predated The Shattering and therefore they didnt inherit Great Runes (Ranni is said to have discarded hers) But the only Rune associated with Godwyn is the cursemark, despite it not being a piece of the Elden Ring. I'd Assume his knights bear the completed Rune out of a desire for what they wish to manifest.
Consider, the mending rune of death is two cursemarks, creating a sun shape. Fire is repeatedly associated with death. (Ghostflame being used to burn the dead, black flame and destined death, the "spirituality" of messmer's flame and the burning boat burials)
And flame is in turn pretty easily associated with the sun. The Fell God's icon, the flame of the tell god spell, the fire giant's eye having spirals (!) evocative of solar currents, etc. I'd even lump in Messmer's orb as being a possible "dark sun" akin to ranni's dark moon.
And finally, the sun has one direct connection to the sun, in that the eclipse is apparently a subversion of death.
I feel like It's safe to say, the cursemark and the sun in general are very old symbols of death, probably related to the age of ghostflame.
@Ezekiel_Allium really good points, what gets me about it as well is that the eclipse shotel is also a half crescent so they went super deep on this idea of split sun shapes and death
0:58 *gasp* 😦 KING OCEIROS, I FINALLY FOUND YOUR BABY
OCELOOOoooOoooOooOOTE!!!
Finally taken notice, haven't you?
No it isn't the baby's skull isn't caved in enough.
@@FaxandNoMachines umm excuse me sir that is blatant character assassination Mr King Oceiros would never cave his baby's skull in. Only his imaginary baby's.
@@RiSK907 No the baby is invisible, it's canon its in the lore.
Least bizzare FromSoft design decision:
They wanted to bring the Nito back one more time. 😏
Ghost babies drowned alive with their mothers
Baby born between a cosmic being and a tragic lady, along with babies simply described as red jellies or a stone
Baby slammed to death by old man with dragon fetish
At least this baby just seems dead
@@metalmonster9536 Who knows, maybe the baby is the mastermind behind the corpse
@@metalmonster9536 Only in dark souls universe : Well, we're happy this baby is just dead.
@@metalmonster9536 Maybe it's a Death Stranding bridge baby situation
And the prize for best unused spell goes to....
I was so hyped at the possibility of getting their ricochet spell 😭
Wait you can’t get that?
No @@LastHalberd
Probably because it would be busted in PVP and (unfortunately) a lot of this game is balanced around PVP.
@pixelspy5791 C'mon, divine bird feathers came with the same dlc as the ricochet. From's balancing is almost never around pvp for the MOST part, it's just generally terrible, even in older titles.
Fextralife accuracy hitting us once again, you love to see it
That “baby” absolutely has an adult shaped skull.
which makes it creepy as fuck
Clearly they should be called Sorcerer Dads
Using prestiDADgitation magic, like the spells "Catch" and "Barbecue" from the video above
Sorcerer Deds
sorcerer daddy
GhostFlame GhostFlame (that means NG+ bitches)!
They have a resemblance to the Uhl Ruins Old-Man-Holding-Baby statutes all throughout the Ainsel Underground.
He isn't holding a baby, he is holding a stone map of the world, with another, presumably "outdated" map lying at his feet.
Also, like the Grand Archives Scholars - they also automatically detect you within a certain range even if you make no sound, so you can't stealth past or sneak up to backstab them.
Do they? I snuck up on the one in Darklight with no trouble - he shot at me when I was below him, but approaching from the back never caused him to aggro.
I threw a kukri at the wall behind them to distract them. Allowed me to backstab them.
@@TrippyTimesTwo In Darklight, there's one that's near the Death Knight Armor starts immobile and facing away from you. Even if you're crouching with the Black Knife armor, he will automatically turn around and attack when you reach a certain proximity.
@@PierceArner Oh yeah, I assume he’s a programmed detection, because he’s guarding the armour, so that makes sense. Your comment suggests they all do it, which I don’t think they do.
@@PierceArner certain individual enemies in specific locations are definitely scripted to catch you trying to sneak up on them, but it doesn't necessarily mean the enemy type as a whole auto-detects.
Hmm, I guess that these sorcerer raisins are just babysitting in these catacombs and chilling by playing pong with their pseudo-glint stone spells.
i'd also like to posit Ghostflame Sorcerer as a potential alternate name for these lovely single fathers
I headcanon that they simply realized the babies were also conscious despite being dead and held on to them so they wouldnt be alone.
oh this is so tender i love it.
Honestly the concept of matherhood/childhood isn't new in the dls, and strikingly there is a direct association to sorcery that is found with Metyr. There, the fingercreepers are revealed to be offspring of the Mother of Fingers. Also Ymir holds a baby fingercreeper. So maybe there is a parallel between the finger's history, intertwined with babies and with death sorcery having the same connection
The reveal of the baby made me audibly shout "WHAT"
Leonardo da Vinci had fallen through rough times.
Da Vinci what happened???!!!
Scarlet rotussy 🥵😍
fallen 'on' 'hard times' or 'going' through 'hard times' or 'seen some' rough times. cheers.
Its just Miyazaki's continuing quest to put dead babies in the games
Another case of fromsoft making a cool spell for one specific enemy that the player doesn’t have access to 😕 (looking at you freaky tongue incantation)
I wanted the tongue incant so bad, I could’ve been a frog but no 😭
I was so sad when that guy just dropped the shield instead of the tongue Incantation.
oh to tongue invaders with that spell...
@@mateo0123 try tongue but hole
Reminds me of the turtle clerics in the ringed city and their cool spinny move that you can't get for some reason.
Ahh, dear little Ocelotte.
Where have you gone? Are you hiding from me?
Come out, come out, don't be afraid.
You were born a child of dragons, what could you possibly fear?
Now, now, show yourself, Ocelotte.
My dear, little Ocelotte.
If I remember my lore correctly, ghostflame is the result of burning bodies, specifically bones. Before Erdtree burial became a thing, cremation seems to have been the most common method of body disposal (per the rancor pot description IIRC). Ghostflame is associated with the Deathrite Birds, and the skulls summoned by the Spell showcased in the video are cloaked in black feathers.
My theory is that these Catacomb Sorcerers might be practicioners of the Deathrite faith. Aligned with Death, they could have been hanging out in the Catacombs of The Land of Shadow since well before Marika rose to power, and the Basilisks and Deathknights are newer arrivals due to Godwyns incursion into the Lands of Shadow via the root system.
0:45 Zuliie asserting dominance over a dehydrated sorcerer
3:20 i dont like how that baby is looking at me 😂
My headcannon is that those "babys" are stillborn, and give the sorcerer some kind of "connection" to those who live in death or death magic itself as a catalyst...maybe...
i only just now noticed the deathbird feathers coming out of the rancor skulls while watching the clip at 2:12 , thats a really neat detail. always thought it was just like wispy black smoke or something
Statues of a similar figure line the outer walls of Elphael/Haligtree with a baby perched on the statues’ leg.
If so, fascinating.
That's Malenia and Miquella
Another connection to Miquella, and by extension, Trina. Interesting.
It's an actual sculpture from real life. I forget the name, but a lot of the architecture in Elphael is directly inspired by a particular cathedral or something like that.
At Fromsoft developer's office:
"Hey, look what I made from those wax sorcerers!"
"Why did you do it?"
"I thought, it would look cool..."
"Neat, let's put it in the game!"
I'm sure this is more true than people think XD People go on about the rich and textured lore, but half of it is barely-there innuendo people are free to interpret as they wish.
@tsm688 that might be true, but also people from Fromsoft: "don't forget to put something that make him relevant with the game"
It might as simple as it sound, it still something that need to be appreciated and I believe people who digging lore like Zully - that finding similarity within the franchise - simply found it as amusing rather than judge it as a lazy attempt to recycle asset.
So it might have nothing to do with it, but it reminds me of an old bit of Dungeons and Dragons lore. Liches, spellcasters who have conquered death and become immortal through a phylactery, have to undergo a special ritual to become one. There's little concrete info on it but one bit of lore suggests it needs a baby and an elderly person. One at the start of their life and one at the end of theirs.
This seems similar, an old man cradling an infant. It could be that they underwent a similar ritual or are the product of one. Alternatively they could be using the dead child to draw power of death from them.
I definitely interpret Godwin as a form of lich lord since in traditional fromsoft fashion seeking the unnatural prolonging of life either requires a full rethinking of what your life is or unintended consequences. I could also consider Ranni a lich lord. However we're faced still with Ranni having to rethink what life is and Godwin facing her unintended consequences.
Usually liches are interpreted as still decaying despite undeath in dnd. Godwin is a lich that subverts expectations. In lore though it appears there were several forces interested in reviving Godwin, and they all had different ways to go about it. Perhaps there were death priests or death sorcerers who sought to revive Godwin by making him into a lich. The sorcerers could just be flavor text to tell us that Godwin is undead and that just as in life, other people are imposing a will on his body.
A bit of a side tangent, but I had a weird thought about this Litch-making ritual.
For some reason, I pictured that the Litch would be the old man in the ritual, which is why they always look... old. But then I thought "What if the ritual went wrong, and the wrong person became the litch?"
Thus, I present to you: THE BABY LITCH!
@@strcmdrbookwyrm baby liches move twice as fast and have more attacks with less hitbox. honestly kinda broken really
interesting fact is that godwyn had a wetnurse who is a fingerreader crone found in the deeproot depths. her VA is even credited as "Wet nurse"
Could be an homage or reference to that
i definitely think this is plausible
I like all Zullie videos, but I''ve come to like paying particular attention to the ones featuring this specific background music, helps the immersion!
It’s certainly one of the creepier selections, which is very fitting for this particular video.
I was just wondering what this music is from because it sounds awesome
@@Based_investor Check the video description.
It's listed right there.
@@Based_investorzullie usually credits all the music used in a given video in the description, if you’re ever curious, but mostly the selection orbits around older FROM ost tracks or Zelda, I’ve noticed. This particular video is using the “central tower” theme from King’s Field IV.
I believe these soundtracks come from King's Field
Death sorcery was a thing entirely separate from Godwyn’s movement; Godwyn became the leader of this faction by inheritance. We know from the Deathbirds and people like Necromancer Garris or the Fallen Hawks that Death sorcery and ghostflame vastly predate Godwyn, possibly even the Erdtree itself. These Catacombs Sorcerers may just be glintstone sorcerers who took up the school of Death sorcery.
A line from the sorcery GhostFlame Explosion: “In the time when there was no Erdtree, death was burned in ghostflame. Deathbirds were the keepers of that fire.” Yeah Ghostflame predates the Erdtree
Maybe the sorcerers are puppets, the babies are just having fun piloting them.
Their potential connection to ghostflame could indicate they were the original keepers of the catacombs, back when the deathrite birds and the ghostflame governed death rituals. This could explain why we only see them in the land of shadow, where all things death end up after being "discarded" from the lands between.
Thank you for continuing to add Kings Field IV music to these so I can vibe.
That's very good to have cleared up, I figured it had to have come from internal data somehow since nothing about them has anything to do with putrescence as they are in game. Makes nothing but sense that they aren't actually called that anywhere!
Something interesting about these mages' "Glintstone" sorceries is that they actually seem to be made out of bone. As for the mages themselves, I get the impression that they killed those infants for power, perhaps akin to what Necromancer Garris might have done to his family, based on his Family Heads weapon. Additionally, based on the Death Rite Birds, these evil powers seem to derive strength from almost collecting the dead.
I would call them Ghostflame or Death Rite Sorcerers to tie them back to the Ghostflame or Death Rite Birds.
As for their design, the Centipede wheel is the "complete" cycle of death as seen in the Lands Of Shadow and Ghostflame, which is why they have children, as a symbol of the completed cycle of death and birth/rebirth. The fragmented Centipede wheel is what was carved into Godwyn and Ranni when they were slain and Death was broken and is thus a symbol for him made from an older symbol, like the Elden Ring and the symbol at the back of Maliketh's arena.
Also, for the origins of the Death Rite Sorcerers, I suspect they were there before Godwyn and his knights, since they appear in Darklight Catacombs, which is without Deathblight entirely.
This is my favorite of the songs you use, its just so perfectly eerie. Thank you for all the content ❤
Considering the timeline the dlc helps us understand. I think it's telling us the conundrum about death existed before the golden order and the elden ring. Maybe godwyn himself hijacked something older and is now part of what is essentially the natural cycle/order of the land between.
It's possible that the sorcerers not counting as Those who Live in Death is just a mistake similar to Miquella's remembrance spell not being boosted by the dryleaf seal initially. Granted that these guys have a much more minor role they could have just been overlooked.
Ocelot disappeared from Lothric and made his way into the Realm of Shadow!
Just a theory im comming up with on the spot, but perhaps these sorcerers are deathbed companions? Given Godwyn’s infestation of these catacombs, it stands to reason that all corpses within have been tainted, which would have tainted these companions by proxy, but since they were still alive, rather than living in death, they are now dying in life. It would also explain the infant and their use of death flame.
Or, to run with that, perhaps they were *woken* by deathbed companions after their deaths, but had been infected by deathblight before being resurrected by the life force of champions? Or perhaps they found a way to mimic the power of a deathbed companion by stealing life from a small child?
There's a lot of flavor to the idea that these sorcerers were once fathers who lost their children, and offered to become Deathbed Companions to them while protecting the catacombs.
If the dead have a bad habit of getting up and roaming around, you would want a steward with a devotion that doesn't rest.
These dads just want to make sure the kids sleep peacefully.
Something i saw on another video is there's a godwyn in a shadow of the erdtree catacomb with a detailed arm not seen in other godwyn bodies, and the godwyn in stormveil has teeth on its underside in rows, also not seen on the godwyn corpse. Its theorized that the godwyns outside of the main corpse are pieces of him, referred to as relics akin to saint's body parts
In the base game, the way the cursemark of the centipede was described made it sound like something in a sense pre-existing, at least as a concept, and the split deaths of Ranni's body and Godwyn's soul is what brought it into reality. So I'd believe that the cursemark of the centiepede and sorceries related to it might already have existed, just not within the lands between as no demigod had died since the formation of the golden order.
Perhaps there might have even been such marks in ages past, but wiped clean upon the creation of a new order and the sealing of Destined Death.
The "Death" symbol definitely predates Godwyn, as it's the symbol Ranni carved into her body and Godwyn's soul for the ritual on the Night of the Black Knives.
Given that Ranni used a piece of the Rune of Death, this suggests that the Elden Ring taps into already existing forces given the difference between the Rune of Death (Red slashes) and the Death Sorceries and Deathflame (Black, cold fire, skulls) - Most likely the Deathbirds and their associated god - As seemingly the "Destined Death" is more related to the prior Death Sorceries than the Rune of Death itself.
This would likely explain how the Elden Ring manages to have so much power over the world, if there were existing powers that affected certain things (Like Deathbirds controlling death) which were hijacked by the Elden Ring.
Also, it would explain why the Death Sorceries suck so much. If the Elden Ring is messing with their source of power they would in fact be weakened.
Worth noting that death (the part where you die) and death (the rituals surrounding it) are generally treated as two very different things in most mythologies, handled by completely separate deities and ritual frameworks. Destined Death seems to just be the "everyone dies eventually" rune that was removed, meanwhile other types of death--black flame, cold flame, etc--are separate understandings of it and related to different rituals and deities.
Suck so much? All the Ghostflame related ones are decent and I’d even say Rings of Spectral Light and Ancient Death Rancor are really good, Explosive Ghostflame can also do crazy damage… if you land it lul
your choice of music is integral to the mood of your channel. i love it.
And why not? They aren't allowed "take-your-kid-to-work day" in the catacombs?
The way the baby is positioned is similar to D's armor. With how the armor depicts cradling a person in the same position as the baby
3:00 Zullie having a little fun dropping enemies in holes.
The cradled baby on their chest reminds me of D's armor, and he's closely related to the lore of Those Who Live In Death. So there may have been an attempt to develop the background of the armor he wears in connection to these sorcerers from the Realm of Shadow
With regards to the baby and lack of anti-death weakness, the grim connection might be that the babies are still completely alive - With their lifeforce and physical beings directly connected to the sorcerer, allowing the magician to Live in Death without some of the disadvantages of doing so. Just my threory.
I'm thinking the opposite is true; the sorcerers are ex-Carian sorcerers who have come to worship death. They take on stillborns who latch onto them to suckle life from them until they are skin and bones. The babies are in the fetal position and a lot of emphasis is put on rebirth when it comes to anything involving death. They give up their lives to provide for and to nurture babies born in death. Much like Godwyn himself, these babies latch onto the living and spread their taint until the host becomes a nursing bed for death. After all, everyone involved with death seems extremely charitable, loyal, and devoted to helping others. Deathbed companions sleep with the dead to provide peace, these sorcerers nurse stillborns to give them life.
I love these videos - no other makes me sit at the edge of my seat going "well what IS the in-code name for that!?" as I'm waiting for the text to scroll to the answer, but never skipping to it.
the secret is decent music and lack of voice. very atmospheric and little to annoy
Those...are not infant skull proportions. Huh. I wonder if the vaguely Celtic theme of the DLC extends to the Ancient Irish Nipple Thing being crossed with northern Eurpoean witch-folklore relating to the feeding of familiars here.
A lot of the ghostflame and pre-Order funerary stuff seems tied to infant motifs. Seeing that these sorcerers have the little baby and use ghostflame immediately reminded me of the weird baby-like head that the deathbirds have! Maybe newborns link the cycle of life and death, and humans using one like this acts as a conduit for casting ghostflame magic?
Also, hehe death stranding wizards
All I could think of was a "mummy/mommy" joke and I'm surprised I didn't see one in the comments (at least when typing this).
Deathbirds are older than Godwyn, so these Magicians might be servants of them. This would explain why it looks like one of the Catacomb Magicians seemed to have killed the missing Death Knight.
godwyn's influence reigns supreme
Ghostflame absolutely predates Godwyn. It dates back to the Deathbirds when death was burned or possibly even the Twinbird.
My guess is that the sorcerers are actually the living in death babies controlling regular lifeless corpses
My theory: they are gravekeepers of old, predating Godwyn's death and serving the Twinbird. The child reminds me of the of the priests clinging to the Death Rite Bird wings, and the Twinned armor design might be a form of mockery of the death ritual.
Zullie never fails to give more information about Elden Ring in 5 minutes than in hour long videos on its lore.
So true.
Put respect on smoughtown
The catacombs probably predate the Erdtree, as they are lit by ghostflame. The cremation urns were probably from before Marika repurposed the catacombs, and the empty shelves probably held corpses but were emptied and the corpses taken to the excavated roots.
I have been greatly enjoying all of these new Godwyn concepts in the DLC, but something has been bothering me about the Death Knight's design since launch- their sunray crown. It reminded me of Gwyndolin at first, which is likely an older inspiration, but then I began to consider the connections to the Eclipse in the base game- particularly the Shotel and Sun Realm Shield. The Eclipse was always intriguing to me, and clearly never got fleshed out, so I would love to see a dive into what these new Eclipse connotations might mean. Love your work Zullie
It might be their idea of what a symbol for the Age of the Duskborn looks like. If Fia's rune is applied, it tries to look golden instead of keeping its normal white color, even though it clearly doesn't mesh well with the rest of the Elden Ring or anything else.
I know that they are not technically "Those who live in death", but they are close enough, even without the extra damage from holy. But the fact that they can use a form of glintstone magic seems to me to be very strange. It's like the nailstone magic, it seems related to glintstone but something marks it as completely different. Glintstone just travels in one direction and when in contact with a surface, it explodes or disintegrates. However, much like the nailstone, this form of glintstone that the catacombs sorcerer uses can change direction. Spiral shard, Glintsone stars, and star shower all can follow and somewhat track an enemy, same with the other glintstone sorcery's. However, they cannot make sharp turns like in nailstone, or ricochet like in the catacomb sorcerer's sorcery. Perhaps this is another form of sorcery that branched off of glintstone, like the glintblade or night sorcery's. Sorry for rambling.
damn, misinformation on fextralife? say it isn't so!
Rabitgaroo moment
What's especially crazy is that it's the second time it happens to this specific enemy. When the page was first created, they named it "Inquisitor" for some reason, and the actual hornsent Inquisitors were labelled "Tree Shamans" which would be a hell of a doozy lore-wise.
EDIT: Mild correction, it was "Horned Shaman". I know this because the old page is still up for some reason.
@@Dinoman972 What bugs me the most about Fextralife isn't that they rush to label everything, even if that label is wrong, but that the mods will swiftly and angrily remove corrections and replace them with the original (incorrect) information.
I'm pretty sure the whole debacle over the Raptor Talons' erroneous claim of 55% extra jump attack damage being proven wrong, changed, and constantly reverted back to 55% with an angry "stop changing this" note is the most recent example. In fact, up until relatively recently, I'm fairly positive they still refused to remove that value despite having the correct values shown as "tentative numbers that require confirmation." If you go there now it finally only shows the correct values.
Gotta love mods on power trips.
Came here looking for this comment
@@ForeverLaxx yeah the whole site is a fucking mess. its hilarious they had mod approval comments only on dlc launch and were still passing the most obtusively toxic, obviously trolling comments while rejecting informative ones, or ones pointing out the disparit
It's genuinely a shame that we didn't get access to the Catacomb Sorcerer's Black Glintstone spells. Both because they are really cool spells conceptually (albeit they'd probably be way worse in open air environments), and because they'd possibly had expounded on what the deal was with the sorcerers in the first place
Oceros confirmed.
Thank you for mentioning the soundtracks names in the description.
Zullie, can you do a video on what the tower in the scaduview is after beating Gaius?
A gravity brace for the falling tree. The pot is gaius' jacuzzi
@@Crabunderscore lol
I thought of them as either necromancers or a similar school of magic, similar to a Litch being a necromancer made undead, these guys are necromancers rather than being revived by blight, have either an older rite based in ghostflame for their revival, or are in fact not yet truely dead. Living still in their animated husks.
There are mentions and appearances of necromancers in the lands between, and their “baby” could have something to due with rancor, and how anguish invites vengeful spirits to be used by Neceomancers similar to Neceomacer Garris and his flail.
Fetishes of the dead seem to accrue rancor, ones from especially tragic and painful cases seem to attract it even more so.
At least thats how I saw it :p
The baby husk & placement reminds me of D's armour.
Maybe these are a further sign of the whole "twins with one soul" thing? D, Twin Husks, etc.
Yup, the same idea was the first that came to me.
Probably, these sorcerers were like D, hunters put them there to destroy the dead as they rise. But Godwyn's presence turned them into something different.
This is purely speculation, but considering they are in the Lands of Shadow (which seems more accepting of other forms of "death management" which the erdtree supplanted), I would hazard a guess that they are the intended stewards of all catacombs, and the reason they don't show up in the Lands Between is because the golden order seem to have 'hijacked' these catacombs for their own erdtree burial and probably eliminated the old stewards who were there.
I'm basing this on the fact they have ghostflame sigils pop up for their spells, and are unaffected by Golden order Fundamentalist incantations like Those Who Live In Death are, so they seem more related to the deathbirds than Godwyn.
I hadn't realized just how mysterious this enemy actually is... hm...
At a glance, I would assume they're aligned with the Death Knights in some capacity. But, if that weren't necessarily the case, could they be aligned with Ymir?
He notably also performs and teaches Fingernail Sorcery, which is identified by the ricochet feature. In the same vein, Ymir and these sorcerers both display their combined intelligence and faith through the magic they perform. It seems plausible there's some greater association here, as opposed to the Death Knights; Which seem to predominantly utilize Faith, alongside physical stats.
I don't think it actually is fingernail sorcery. Nail sorceries don't ricochet off surfaces, they instead re-adjust their angle repeatedly to hone in on targets.
Plus, I think they look a bit different. Not to mention the deathmark symbol being shown when the sorcerers cast them, something that Nail sorceries don't have.
@@darthplagueis13 I had this thought as well shortly after posting my comment, but I hadn't gotten around to an edit yet. I still need to reanalyze either spells, but thank you for the swift follow up!
@@darthplagueis13 You're definitely right on that front. I can't see any explicit connection to Ymir in that case. So much for that theory
Finally taken notice, have you, of my dear child…
0:11 Godwyn being the equivalent of Baldur from Norse mythology as he was killed by a mistletoe and his death had set off the chain of events that led to Ragnarok.
Killdeb by mistletoe sound kinda funny
Even more interesting is that Baldr is supposed to come back from death after Ragnarok and bring about the rebirth of the world as its sole god.
@@aiasfree correct me if im wrong, but isnt that a later christianisation of norse mythology (the kind of adaptation of native beliefs that was used nearly everywhere to make converting more appealing (like how in japan missionaries told the people jesus was a buddha)
@@minte1972 Ehhh, kinda sorta? Some parts of recorded Norse mythology are probably influenced by Christianity because of how long the two existed in the same region before one of them became the official religion, but to what extent the Poetic Edda itself was influenced by Christianity is up to debate. IIRC, the poem first popped up in the 10th century when Christianity and nordic beliefs coexisted in the region. If it is true that the Voluspa was influenced by Christian beliefs, then it'd be more nordic cultures attempting to conflate Jesus with Baldr more than later christians attempting to rewrite Norse religion.
@ZulliethebWitch My mind just made an unlikely connection, but the way the baby lay on the mages’s body is much like how Fia lays on Godwyn during the stage when you can access the dragon fight through her. Idk if this means anything but just a thought
The baby may be like a Death Stranding reference, considering they are death sorcerers. Reaching at straws a bit though.
"...People always ask why I tote the baby..."
- "Death Stranding"
Shoutout to Zullie calling out Fextralife AGAIN.
2:07 The item description on the Cursemark of Death says that the symbol was meant to be a full wheel but was split into two, with one half killing Ranni's body and the other half killing Godwyn's soul. This already implies that it's not a symbol of Godwyn, but a symbol of death.
The baby may be a parallel to Fia's gestation of the Mending Rune of the Death Prince, the Great Rune received after she lays with the Prince of Death. Perhaps the baby is its rune, and perhaps the rune is a baby.
I think what's interesting is that the catacombs play an inverse role in the Land of Shadow compared to the catacombs in the Lands Between. In the former, they are meant to be a form of punishment. Essentially, people are fed directly to Godwyn's corpse and are subjected to life after death while plagued with Godwyn's rot. The people running the catacombs are loyal servants of Godwyn. The death knights guard the cadaver surrogates and presumably, these sorcerers then would care for those living out their afterlives within the catacomb. Much like how the death knights were once royal golden knights, these sorcerers may have once been proud Carian sorcerers who had abandoned their stone masks in lieu of taking on a new symbol; dead children living after their deaths, gestating upon them waiting for birth in their new afterlives. A huge emphasis was placed on birth after death in the base game, it makes sense to have it take a literal form in the DLC. If you take a closer look at the children, they are in a fetal position. As symbols of Godwyn, they are literal representations of what his corpse is all about.
Huh? People in TLB aren't intentionally "fed" to Godwyn's corpse as a punishment, none of the factions in power would even want to do that since deathblight is considered a dangerous infestation. If any of the major factions wants to punish someone, they have way more direct ways of doing it. The only people that would even consider actually burying someone with the intent of deathblighting them and making them undead are Death cultists, which don't view that as a punishment and more like worship of Godwyn.
The baby could be a catalyst for the death spells the sorcerers use, the baby "looks" dead so it could be able to be used as a catalyst.
Zullie dissing fextralife live on tape
Because they never added these undead guys spells I thought I missed something in the catacombs and were looking around them for hours, thanks Michael Zaki
The baby is weird. The other enemies we know to be carrying a baby are the abductor virgins. They are often related to Messmer considering the whole snake stuff, even there's no confirmation of any sort it does remind him. And now, those magicians also related to Godwyn within their aspect and power. It's so unsettling.
+ D's armor, which is tied to hunting those who live in death + deathroot.
The abductor virgins are Rykard's minions not Messmer's. The baby is possibly a reference to Rykard's fathering of the snake people and the virgins themselves resemble Tanith, Rykard's consort who would as such be the snake people's foster mother in the case of Rya.
The abductor virgins are Rykard, not messmer. Messmer is unrelated to them other than also being a seperate blasphemous serpent.
This is some of the best speculation in a while bravo Zullie
Fextralife making stuff up? Who would’ve guessed
Great job, Zullie, it's always a great to see someone dedicated to making sure even tiny details and inconsistencies, like an enemy being improperly named on the wiki, are noticed and patiently and nonjudgmentally corrected. Those details may seem petty to some, but even the tiniest incorrection could very easily have major lore implications that reframe how we see the game's world.
Those sorcerers stuck out to me as weirdly out-of-place for the catacombs, it feels especially telling that they aren't classed among Those Who Live in Death. They could just be random enemies tossed in for the mechanical challenges they add, but I can't help but wonder if they have some relation to the priests that worship the Death Rite Birds.
Another oddity that strikes me is the point about the Cursemark of Death... it is obviously not the same thing as the rune of Destined Death, which begs the question... if incorporating the Full Wheel of the Centipede into the Elden Ring leads to an "Order [that] will be one of Death restored", but it's not Destined Death... Could the centipede mark actually be a rune that was once a part of the Elden Ring during an earlier age?
Whaaat, fextralife getting something wrong? Never have I ever!
whenever I think of death magic and ghostflame in this game, I think of the deathbirds. There seems to be some distinction between basegame's deathbird bosses and the somewhat lesser DLC gravebirds.
“The Deathbirds are graveyard fire keepers; it is said they rake out the ashen remains of the dead from their kilns.”
I assume in the base game, the Death Birds fulfill the above purpose, and shepherd those who aren’t buried at the Erdtree to the Land of Shadow, where their lesser siblings tend to the graves of those that appear there.
“Gravebirds are ancient golems, created to guard the spiritgraves built where all manners of Death ultimately drift.”
I think the distinction is the Deathbirds are “living” beings, they are said to be “born” from the twinbird Outer God, although this could very much mean that they are also constructs, given FromSoft wording. They are shepherds and caretakers, and gravebirds are watchers and guardians, albeit lesser.
That's Dumbledore carrying the Voldemort fetus
That was exactly my first thought.
Knowing From Software the baby must serve as a sacrifice for their spells, his never-ending suffering serving as fuel for the death magic