Great video. Definitely a benefit to having both. Expensive right is nice when you aren't moving it much, but having a portable rig for camping or travel is very beneficial.
This is a good way of looking at it, I see a lot of comments which are either/or when comparing so called "smart" scopes (most rigs are smart these days anyway as they are all capable of being controlled by apps featuring goto, planetarium software etc) having both available seems perfectly sensible to me.
The Dwarf 3 is a great teaching tool to bring people into the hobby of astrophotography. Once they are hooked and want to know more than they can move to the next level. I loved the video for presenting both cases on what kind of technology is available.
Another great comparison video. The Dwarf 3 and S50 gives people the chance to try AP and see if it's something they'll enjoy doing. Also it gives people who don't have the money for Pro set ups to buy a scope that'll do a decent job at AP. For me it's a win win. Some will buy the D3 find they really enjoy AP then move on to a better set up. Other's find out AP is not for them and not dropped a small family car worth of money on a Rig they'll end up selling. I'm waiting on this cloud that covering my night sky in the UK to go else where so I can get my new S50 out and start trying it out. Would of had a D3 but there's 2 month waiting list. Got a better tripod for better vibration reduction so a D3 might be on the list next year to see if the EQ mode will match the S50 mosaic 🤔
I am definitely not au fait with the world of astronomy and have kinda been pulled in by stumbling across videos for the Dwarf 3 and SeeStar S50. I thought those two produced very good results, especially considering the price. But I actually said "wow" out loud when you put up your $5k rig picture of M31. That's an amazing image! Your M45 image....now that is just showing off! :P
Haha, thanks! I definitely put a lot of effort into post-processing the photos from my $5k setup. It's always satisfying to see them printed and framed on the wall in my living room.
@ have you ever printed one from the $500 smart scopes? It would be interesting, but I suspect they’re really only going to look good on a smartphone or tablet and once blown up to a decent size print they will look a bit too mushy.
And this is why I’ll hold on awhile, I could get the dwarf 3 right now ( or the see star 30 or 50 ) and no doubt I’d be ok with the images, BUT, after seeing the images from your FF80 it’s like WOW, it’s a never ending rabbit hole I’m not sure I want to go down………yet !
That was an awesome video. Love the size of the Dwarf 3 and there are trade-offs for tiny optics, but overall it work much better then I would have thought. I also like the ability of the Dwarf to produce a panoramic images with the built in software by tilling many images; which could be harder with a custom rig. I wish it were a bit higher resolution imager so you could print the output instead of just viewing on a screen. I imagine your custom setup is very high resolution; or maybe not? That final image you took with your scope was stunning with the Dwarf 3 showing you what's there, but not as brilliant. I might wait for the Dwarf 4 where I assume there will be a higher resolution sensor.
Hi Wido, I really enjoyed your comparison of the Dwarf 3 and your $5000 setup. It's a great breakdown for those of us considering a more affordable option. I'm writing from Brazil, and I've been looking into the Dwarf 3 as well. Here, it's actually quite a bit cheaper at R$1003.29. Have you considered the potential impact of import taxes and duties on the overall cost for those of us outside the US? It would be interesting to see a comparison of the final price after taxes and shipping for different regions. Thanks for all your great content!
Thanks! Yes, prices do vary a lot based on transport cost and import tax rates in different countries. I may write about that and do a comparison on my website. Clear skies!
A very nice review Wido. Clear and easy to understand. If I were just beginning and was only interested in Astrophotography, I think that the Dwarf3 is the best option. If you also wish to do normal viewing through an eyepiece, obviously don’t buy it, as it doesn’t have that capability. Yes, the €5,000 Euro setup is much better for deep space images, but this might be too much for the typical beginner. As someone who’s already done much visual, and some photography through my 8” SCT, I might not be as inclined to buy the dwarf . However, since I get to travel a bit and sometimes to really dark skies, a potable Astro system like the Dwarf3 becomes a really nice option. But I’m torn between the Dwarf3, Seestar S50 and the newer Seestar S20 🤔
@ Thanks Wido. Maybe when you get the S20, compare to the same 3 targets and a nice 3 column listing if each systems features side-by-side (things like lens size, focal length, camera chip type, weight/size, etc.) as well as final image quality.
It's horses for courses Wido, the Dwarf III was great for the money, you couldn't build a rig for twice the price that would give those results. Obviously the more expensive rig was going to give better results overall, but there is more involved in setting it up. You could simplify it though by using an ASI2600MC air, this would negate the need for the guide scope/camera and the ASIair Plus making the rig much simpler to set up. Most rigs these days are "smart" anyway as they feature a mini pc that can be controlled by an app on your phone or tablet. Both of of these scopes are good for what they are designed to do. You could have got much better solar images with the expensive scope by usinf a different camera and one of the solar contrast filters that are available of course. But yeah, a good comparison to show what is possible with these scopes.
I can’t travel with my main rig. Dogs. Camping supplies. Family. So I ordered this to enjoy astronomy on the go. I also do a lot of outreach which is where this will shine. It’s an interesting comparison where there is no comparison really. The 5k rig will own that $500 rig with ease.
Is there a possibility to make a guide video about at least one celestial body, Andromeda for example, because yours looks beautiful. I think that the whole process, which software you use for the final image, etc. I would be very grateful, and it would also give us beginners a rhythm for other things... I mean D3. Support and greetings from Bosnia! :)
I would love to know his recommendation as well. I definitely want a smart telescope to start in the hobby and learn some of the basics without the frustration a bigger more expensive rig would bring. I just can’t decide between the S50 and the Dwarf 3. Each has it’s advantages and the new mosaic mode on the S50 makes the choice even more difficult.
Check out my comparison between the Dwarf 3 and the Seestar S50 here: th-cam.com/video/nz8vK8TcuFE/w-d-xo.html. I've reached out to ZWO about the S30, and as soon as I get my hands on it, I'll put together a full review!
Sure, a smart telescope can beat any conventional set-up hands down. I relies on KI and available data on what the object in view is supposed to look like.
Not a good comparison, more like showing off. I would have expected at a minimum to have equal light gathering time OR more interesting would be giving the dwarf 3 double the time to see how much you can extract being a smaller scope. Regardless that 5k rig takes some amazing shots!
Interesting, thanks. I have a fixed rig at home and a couple of mobile rigs. I've often wondered about a smart telescope for convenience but looking at the results, I'll stick with my rigs. Be interesting to see how for these smart scopes move on in a couple of years. Great presentation btw 👍
I’m not a fan of the AI technology because I believe it is not a very good path to astro imaging as a hobby. I do believe that these devices will loose their appeal in time
'Pro' results though. The images gathered by amateurs for under $10K worth of gear, are professional quality. Back in the 70s, you couldn't get such images. Only 'pros' with $100K+ could. Some amateurs photos now, rival some of the 'pro' images from that era.
@@joeshmoe7967 I totally understand, I've been doing Astrophotography since 2005, and the difference in the average amateur image between 2005 and now, and what $5k buys you now vs then is incredible. That said, saying that a $5k rig now rivals (and in most cases, will absolutely beat) pro rigs from the 70's doesn't make the $5k rig a pro rig... a 'pro' rig in my opinion, consists of no less than a 150~160mm Tak/Tec/Astro-Physics APO Refractor, 12" f/3 Newt or a 14~16" RC/CDK, on a bisque, planewave, asa or 10micron mount, under at least bortle 3 skies... with a very large camera sensor... I'm thinking KAF-16803 sized sensor... (yes, I'd still say the KAF-16803/KAF-16200 CCDs is superior to the 36x24mm CMOS cameras currently available) I'm not saying you can't achieve amazing results with a 65mm APO, tiny strain wave mount and a 4/3" or 1" CMOS camera, all budget oriented gear from a bortle 6 back yard. You absolutely can.. and if its narrowband data, you can create award winning images wtih that setup no worries at all... But it doesn't make it a 'pro' setup. Semantics I know, but I'm old and have had rigs ranging from $2500 very basic setups, up to $60k mind-blowing rigs, and wouldn't have considered any of them to be 'pro' setups - there was still easily $100k I could have spent on my 60k rig in 2011~2012... I have maybe $25k~30k in two separate rigs at the moment and they are toys at best...
Great video. Definitely a benefit to having both. Expensive right is nice when you aren't moving it much, but having a portable rig for camping or travel is very beneficial.
This is a good way of looking at it, I see a lot of comments which are either/or when comparing so called "smart" scopes (most rigs are smart these days anyway as they are all capable of being controlled by apps featuring goto, planetarium software etc) having both available seems perfectly sensible to me.
camping or travel? right. just getting that monster out the door and set up in your own yard is a huge event
Looking forward to dwarf 5-6-7. Things will be better and better!
I have a Dwarf 3 on order. Waiting for it to get here. 👍👍👍 Thanks for the video.
Nice 👍
The Dwarf 3 is a great teaching tool to bring people into the hobby of astrophotography. Once they are hooked and want to know more than they can move to the next level. I loved the video for presenting both cases on what kind of technology is available.
Dwarf is not bad at all for the price and convenience, but the images with your rig are stunning. Well done!
I am very impressed with the Dwarf 3 results. I’m looking forward to mine arriving. Great video 👍🏻
Another great comparison video. The Dwarf 3 and S50 gives people the chance to try AP and see if it's something they'll enjoy doing. Also it gives people who don't have the money for Pro set ups to buy a scope that'll do a decent job at AP.
For me it's a win win. Some will buy the D3 find they really enjoy AP then move on to a better set up. Other's find out AP is not for them and not dropped a small family car worth of money on a Rig they'll end up selling.
I'm waiting on this cloud that covering my night sky in the UK to go else where so I can get my new S50 out and start trying it out. Would of had a D3 but there's 2 month waiting list. Got a better tripod for better vibration reduction so a D3 might be on the list next year to see if the EQ mode will match the S50 mosaic 🤔
I am definitely not au fait with the world of astronomy and have kinda been pulled in by stumbling across videos for the Dwarf 3 and SeeStar S50. I thought those two produced very good results, especially considering the price. But I actually said "wow" out loud when you put up your $5k rig picture of M31. That's an amazing image! Your M45 image....now that is just showing off! :P
Haha, thanks! I definitely put a lot of effort into post-processing the photos from my $5k setup. It's always satisfying to see them printed and framed on the wall in my living room.
@ have you ever printed one from the $500 smart scopes? It would be interesting, but I suspect they’re really only going to look good on a smartphone or tablet and once blown up to a decent size print they will look a bit too mushy.
Think of 500 dollar smarts scopes as discounted heroin for a first time user
Dwarf reminds me of Johnny 5 from the movie "Short Circuit" 🤖
Nice video, thanks. Am waiting for my Dwarf 3 to arrive in February this year. Hopefully. So far only tripod came.
Have fun!
And this is why I’ll hold on awhile, I could get the dwarf 3 right now ( or the see star 30 or 50 ) and no doubt I’d be ok with the images, BUT, after seeing the images from your FF80 it’s like WOW, it’s a never ending rabbit hole I’m not sure I want to go down………yet !
That was an awesome video. Love the size of the Dwarf 3 and there are trade-offs for tiny optics, but overall it work much better then I would have thought. I also like the ability of the Dwarf to produce a panoramic images with the built in software by tilling many images; which could be harder with a custom rig. I wish it were a bit higher resolution imager so you could print the output instead of just viewing on a screen. I imagine your custom setup is very high resolution; or maybe not? That final image you took with your scope was stunning with the Dwarf 3 showing you what's there, but not as brilliant. I might wait for the Dwarf 4 where I assume there will be a higher resolution sensor.
Hi Wido,
I really enjoyed your comparison of the Dwarf 3 and your $5000 setup. It's a great breakdown for those of us considering a more affordable option.
I'm writing from Brazil, and I've been looking into the Dwarf 3 as well. Here, it's actually quite a bit cheaper at R$1003.29. Have you considered the potential impact of import taxes and duties on the overall cost for those of us outside the US? It would be interesting to see a comparison of the final price after taxes and shipping for different regions.
Thanks for all your great content!
Thanks! Yes, prices do vary a lot based on transport cost and import tax rates in different countries. I may write about that and do a comparison on my website. Clear skies!
Your 5k rig pleides had massive multiple spikes on the brightest stars? Why is that? Only seen similar artefacts from hyperstar :(
I hope the Dwarf 4 will be just as good as the $5,000 Telescope.
A very nice review Wido. Clear and easy to understand. If I were just beginning and was only interested in Astrophotography, I think that the Dwarf3 is the best option. If you also wish to do normal viewing through an eyepiece, obviously don’t buy it, as it doesn’t have that capability. Yes, the €5,000 Euro setup is much better for deep space images, but this might be too much for the typical beginner.
As someone who’s already done much visual, and some photography through my 8” SCT, I might not be as inclined to buy the dwarf . However, since I get to travel a bit and sometimes to really dark skies, a potable Astro system like the Dwarf3 becomes a really nice option. But I’m torn between the Dwarf3, Seestar S50 and the newer Seestar S20 🤔
Tx Martyn, I hope you're doing well 👍!
@ Thanks Wido. Maybe when you get the S20, compare to the same 3 targets and a nice 3 column listing if each systems features side-by-side (things like lens size, focal length, camera chip type, weight/size, etc.) as well as final image quality.
Any issue with star shapes on your Dwarf3 ? Dwarflab claim early review units had pinched optics.
Not with my setup. I did notice a bit of star elongation, but it was quite windy, and my Hama tripod isn’t the most stable.
It's horses for courses Wido, the Dwarf III was great for the money, you couldn't build a rig for twice the price that would give those results. Obviously the more expensive rig was going to give better results overall, but there is more involved in setting it up. You could simplify it though by using an ASI2600MC air, this would negate the need for the guide scope/camera and the ASIair Plus making the rig much simpler to set up. Most rigs these days are "smart" anyway as they feature a mini pc that can be controlled by an app on your phone or tablet. Both of of these scopes are good for what they are designed to do. You could have got much better solar images with the expensive scope by usinf a different camera and one of the solar contrast filters that are available of course. But yeah, a good comparison to show what is possible with these scopes.
I can’t travel with my main rig. Dogs. Camping supplies. Family. So I ordered this to enjoy astronomy on the go. I also do a lot of outreach which is where this will shine. It’s an interesting comparison where there is no comparison really. The 5k rig will own that $500 rig with ease.
Hoe is de kwaliteit van de foto's van de Dwarf III waarbij je te maken hebt met Bortle 8 a 9?
Is there a possibility to make a guide video about at least one celestial body, Andromeda for example, because yours looks beautiful. I think that the whole process, which software you use for the final image, etc. I would be very grateful, and it would also give us beginners a rhythm for other things...
I mean D3.
Support and greetings from Bosnia! :)
I use Pixinsight, here's a tutorial video I made some time ago. I hope this helps: th-cam.com/video/-3UvVVtLqUE/w-d-xo.html
@AstroForumSpace Thanks, Wido! This is more than enough...:)
Which smart telescope is the best right now seestars50 dwarf 3 or the seestars30
I would love to know his recommendation as well. I definitely want a smart telescope to start in the hobby and learn some of the basics without the frustration a bigger more expensive rig would bring. I just can’t decide between the S50 and the Dwarf 3. Each has it’s advantages and the new mosaic mode on the S50 makes the choice even more difficult.
Check out my comparison between the Dwarf 3 and the Seestar S50 here: th-cam.com/video/nz8vK8TcuFE/w-d-xo.html. I've reached out to ZWO about the S30, and as soon as I get my hands on it, I'll put together a full review!
Defo finding it hard to actually find a sight that gives details on what options are available for smart astrophotography.
astroforumspace.com/smart-telescopes-best-buy-guide-2024/#$500
Waiting for my dwarf3. I hope I'll be able to get that high quality photos...
What tripod was used for the Dwarf 3?
I use this one, not the very best but affordable: amzn.to/4hG3mV2
It's weird, I watch these videos and my wallet starts making this curious whimpering noise, as if I'm flogging it relentlessly with purchases.
Try the seven sisters again……no filter. It will look way better.
Dwarft 3 for me
Sure, a smart telescope can beat any conventional set-up hands down. I relies on KI and available data on what the object in view is supposed to look like.
Unfair comparisons, you should have used the same exposure times🙂
I totally get what you're saying, but when I'm in a Ferrari, I can't just cruise at 25 km/h - I’ve got to push it to the max 😀.
Not the same focal ratio = not the same exposure time.
surely your rig is closer to €8000??
In Canada that’s a 10k rig
Not a good comparison, more like showing off. I would have expected at a minimum to have equal light gathering time OR more interesting would be giving the dwarf 3 double the time to see how much you can extract being a smaller scope.
Regardless that 5k rig takes some amazing shots!
Interesting, thanks. I have a fixed rig at home and a couple of mobile rigs. I've often wondered about a smart telescope for convenience but looking at the results, I'll stick with my rigs. Be interesting to see how for these smart scopes move on in a couple of years.
Great presentation btw 👍
Thanks so much 🙏
i would never consider the 5k rig after this video. even if i had the money
I’m not a fan of the AI technology because I believe it is not a very good path to astro imaging as a hobby. I do believe that these devices will loose their appeal in time
Sun spots are interesting, spots on Uranus are more immediate 😂
No. I’ll save you the watch.
Calling an am5 and an 80mm quadruplet apo, or any $5k rig "pro" is humorous at best.
'Pro' results though. The images gathered by amateurs for under $10K worth of gear,
are professional quality. Back in the 70s, you couldn't get such images. Only 'pros' with $100K+ could. Some amateurs photos now, rival some of the 'pro' images from that era.
@@joeshmoe7967 I totally understand, I've been doing Astrophotography since 2005, and the difference in the average amateur image between 2005 and now, and what $5k buys you now vs then is incredible.
That said, saying that a $5k rig now rivals (and in most cases, will absolutely beat) pro rigs from the 70's doesn't make the $5k rig a pro rig...
a 'pro' rig in my opinion, consists of no less than a 150~160mm Tak/Tec/Astro-Physics APO Refractor, 12" f/3 Newt or a 14~16" RC/CDK, on a bisque, planewave, asa or 10micron mount, under at least bortle 3 skies... with a very large camera sensor... I'm thinking KAF-16803 sized sensor... (yes, I'd still say the KAF-16803/KAF-16200 CCDs is superior to the 36x24mm CMOS cameras currently available)
I'm not saying you can't achieve amazing results with a 65mm APO, tiny strain wave mount and a 4/3" or 1" CMOS camera, all budget oriented gear from a bortle 6 back yard. You absolutely can.. and if its narrowband data, you can create award winning images wtih that setup no worries at all... But it doesn't make it a 'pro' setup.
Semantics I know, but I'm old and have had rigs ranging from $2500 very basic setups, up to $60k mind-blowing rigs, and wouldn't have considered any of them to be 'pro' setups - there was still easily $100k I could have spent on my 60k rig in 2011~2012... I have maybe $25k~30k in two separate rigs at the moment and they are toys at best...