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Witch Doctor: Is Liquid Lube Better than Powder for Lubricating the Inside of the Case Neck?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ธ.ค. 2021
- Introduction
The purpose of this test is to examine the difference between coating the internal necks of the brass with liquid versus powder form prior to charging the case with powder and seating the bullet. Previous testing showed that annealing and applying powder lube to the inside of the necks prior to bullet seating produced better performance on target relative to just using lube, just annealing, or not doing either. Now that lubing the inside of case necks is established as a practice that enhances precision, there is question regarding what type of coating is best: powder or liquid. Method This test utilized the 6PPC rifle utilized in several other tests. The powder coating using was shot 5 times with 5-shot groups at the same time as the five 5-shot groups with the liquid. The powder used was 2018 N133 and the first two sets of 5-shot groups we of the same lot of powder with a charge of 29.4 but that powder ran out. The next two sets of 5-shot groups were shot with 2018 N133 from a different lot with a charge weight of 29.4. The final set of 5-shot groups were shot with 29.5. Velocity, standard deviation, and group size were collected for all 5-shot groups (10 total; 50 total rounds). The same brass and primers were used throughout the test and the same loading practices were used for all rounds (e.g., annealed after each shot). This isolated the rounds to just the powder versus liquid. Results Paired sample t-tests were utilized to analyze whether differences existing between the powder and liquid conditions. All t-tests were not statistically significant. In the table below p represents the probability that there is a statistically significant difference (a p-value of less than .05 signifies a difference):
Velocity Avg (p=.21) SD Avg (p=.06) Group Avg (p=.11)
Liquid 3333 9.36 .281
Powder 3337.4 11.54 .3854
The standard deviation and group averages were almost statistically significant. I suspect that if I ran this test again with the same amount of group fired, I would get statistically significant differences on those metrics.
Conclusion
Although not statistically significant, coating with the liquid seemed to outperform the powder. This may be due to the author’s observation that the liquid appears to apply the lube in a uniform manner relative to the powder. With the liquid, an observer can see the black liquid residue applied uniformly in the necks whereas with the powder, it was difficult to tell if the powder was applied uniformly in the necks. It is recommended that liquid lube is used over powder. If powder is the only type available to you, then it will still improve precision as evidenced by previous testing.
Lubes:
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Recommended liquid lube application material:
www.amazon.com...
You can mix graphite powder with 99% isopropyl alcohol to make your own liquid graphite. It works really well and the alcohol evaporates in seconds and leaves a uniform graphite coating. Must use the 99% stuff though.
I couldn't find the neolube anywhere here in Italy. I bought 50 grams of graphite powder and wanted to mix it with isopropyl alcohol. I haven't done any tests yet, would anyone be able to tell me with which ratio to mix them please?
same thing I do ,works great,@it's cheap!
the ratio varies, and it's continually drying out so you have to add some thinner as you use it.always use 99% alcohol.
Good video Bryan. Ive been using Neolube No. 2 for about a year and have seen good results overall. Of course coupled with annealing, good case prep, etc. I like how it goes on and the consistency of the application. Because the graphite is suspended in quick drying alcohol, the application is always consistent. You can reapply and reapply and the film attained is the same. You just can screw it up… unless you miss a case. 😂. However, with clean brass/necks and good lighting it becomes very obvious when one is missed. Thanks
Another good video Bryan, I've been able to achieve a significant reduction in ES/SD with lubing necks as well. I used a lyman dry white mica neck lube suspended in isopropyl alcohol. I stir it with a foam qtip(the cotton fall apart too easily) and then roll it around the inside of the necks. I tested it by rolling the applicator on clean black plastic and after the iso dried there was only a fine even coating of shiny mica left. I'm planning on picking up some pure graphite powder to try as well. In my 40 round test(6PPC) my ES/SD were nearly cut in half. (Just re-iterating my comment from the video before it was re-uploaded).
I just started doing this .never knew from videos I used my case sizing wax 6 shots 5 in same hole
Nice! Shoot small!
Interesting info. One comment - I hate seeing containers with highly volatile solvent being left open. That brew will end up sludgy pretty quickly if that's how it's used very time.
Thank you, thats another great video!
I see you are writing up your experimental methods and results, are you at some point thinking of publishing all those tests as a book?
That would be amazing and i have'nt seen anything like that before. A writeup of all those tests, what matters and what not. With big enough sample size, a clear hypothesis, results and a brief discussion,...
Yes, that’s the plan!
Agree !
Thank you , great video!
nobody in the video or the comments describe what is the increase in accuracy with lube vs no lube can you provide this..good video
In a previous video lubed showed better precision th-cam.com/video/GRJZPSew4DA/w-d-xo.html
Lee case sizing lube. The lube is formulated to not affect powder should it come in contact with it. I apply it with a Q-tip on one end and after sizing I just run the clean other end to wipe it out. I don't anneal my case necks.
Awesome thanks!
Great video, thanks again for sharing. Part of the advantage seems that the application inside the neck is more consistent than with dry lube.
Would you be kind enough to answer two questions please?
- Do you think it makes sense for any caliber to lube case necks before seating bullets? (223 Remington in my case)
- Do you have any experience lubing the bullets rather than the case necks? (I could imagine that that would have the advantage of being less risky to contaminate the powder charge.)
Looking forward to the book, eventually!
Thanks for checking out the video!
I cannot think of any reason why the results would not generalize to other calibers. The idea is that the lube increases uniformity to the seating pressure (therefore producing reliable seating) and bullet release. For the former, we seem to have evidence of that in the testing. For the latter, that is speculative from what I know at this point in time.
I did not attempt to coat the bullets. It does not seem like a little lube on the gun powder does anything but it is a procedural variation that is testable!!
Thanks Bryan, for valuable content and professional presentation. Obviously the lubed neck results in a more uniform bullet release. As a mechanic, when performing a press opperation such as pushing a bushing into a bore, I lube the upper portion of the bore and the lower portion of the bushing so that during seating, the lube in the bore is is distributed downward by the bushing and the lube on the bushing is distributed upward by the bore. I'm not sure if the would act the same with dry lube but you seem to be the inquisitive type... Thanks again.
Thanks for the comment! Somebody asked if I lube the bullet too which I do not. Your comment seems to suggest that perhaps we should try lubing the neck and the bullet??
Yes, thinking that if lubing one of two surfaces yields say 30% lube distribution between component interfacing surfaces, would lubing both increase that distribution in a significant way and ultimately improved performance on target?
@@WitchDoctorPrecision ironically I was just thinking the same thing last week when I got into a batch of bullets that needed SO MUCH more force than I usually see on my KM Arbor Press. I should have gave it a trial at that time but by then I was already a bit Fet up with it and a few other issues. Shit how do you spell “Fet up?” Haha
Thanks for the video. When you anneal does either of the moly products bake inside the neck? If so does it build up over time more than a light carbon layer?
I brush the necks before annealing but there still appears to be a darker tint to the inside of the neck relative to just the carbon. I’ve shot the brass consecutively and haven’t noticed it degrade precision.
Is the composition of the solid in NeoLube2 and Molybdenum Disulfide the same? I'm not sure if there is a different version, but I thought NeoLube2 is graphite not MoS2. Thanks for the video work and Happy New Year!!!
Yes, that is correct. Hence why I titled it with the term “lube”. Thanks for catching that and happy new year!
Where do I buy the liquid at.
I get mine from Amazon.com. I’ve been told that it is a common lube for small craft items like model trains so a craft type of store may have it too.
Hey! Does MicroLubrol work same as that Neolube no2? Is that same kind ipa mix that will dry and leave thin layer?
Yes, the basically work the same to lube the necks. The liquid dries in a minute or two and leaves a thin layer. When I seat the bullets, you can tell there is a smoother seating on the lubed necks relative to necks with no lube. I need an AMP Press to measure that and show the effect. That will be a future video.
Does it build up in case necks overtime I’m old new to me neo lube2 I just found your channel and subbed I have seen a F class shooter using this lube I didn’t ask questions but I am now
Doesn’t seem to. I’m not sure if there is a tool out there that can measure that minute if a build up if there is any.
I've been using liquid for a season and a half... I can tell you it makes a difference. But I'm nobody.
Awesome video Bryan. I wonder if you could just add alcohol to your dry lube to make it neo2
I’ve had a few people post and say that this is indeed what they are doing and it works so sounds like it’s worth doing.
@@WitchDoctorPrecision thanks. And thanks you for all the testing you do
@@kyley808 thank you for checking it out and subscribing.
Hey Bryan, What's going on with videos being deleted and re-uploaded? That's a few times we've had significant conversations lost. Going to have to keep my comments short and sweet from now on. That was a lot of typing just to lose it all to the ether!
Yeah, sorry about that. I’ve done it twice because one had an alleged copyright issue and I had to modify the video in another. I will do my best to prevent that in the future.
@@WitchDoctorPrecision Not a problem! Just a shame to lose conversations that add to the discussion and answer some other questions. Appreciate the efforts in any case!
Have you tried dipping in the base of the bullets and letting dry then seating to keep the necks cleaner ? nice video thanks 👍
Thanks for checking the videos. Seems like lubing both the neck and bullet work best so I’m using that procedure for now.
Thanks buddy keep making them videos 👍I’ll do some testing just coating the bullets I think, I only dry clean vibrating my case’s so there’s a coating of carbon already there, wet cleaning gave a lot more seating pressure 🤔
@@paulhill9888 cool! Let us know what you find. Anecdotally, it seems like that layer of carbon inside the neck is beneficial which is why I do not wet clean the brass. Good empirical question though.
@@paulhill9888 cool! Let us know what you find. Anecdotally, it seems like that layer of carbon inside the neck is beneficial which is why I do not wet clean the brass. Good empirical question though. I have a few more different tests lined up (e.g., flash hole diameter) but I likely will revisit this topic in the near future.
What about HBN?
Have not tried it inside a case neck. Have you?
So where do I find the liquid moly? I have only found the powder version. BTW, love the videos! Answers the questions that shooters think about!
Thanks! The liquid lube is actually graphite (I may have misspoke in the video) and can be found at: www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07G2SK8VN?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
I normally place links to products in my video descriptions.
@@WitchDoctorPrecision Awesome, thank you! Please keep up the informative videos! As an over thinker(lol) you are answering many things I am curious about.
@@ericschuster6109 thanks. I’m trying to keep things practical so the info can be useful.
@@WitchDoctorPrecision here is one for ya...I shoot a .308 for F-Class. My load is 43.8 gr of varget. I just started using an autotrickler v-4 which is accurate to within .02 grains, which is a single kernel of varget. Would the 1 kernel of powder make any difference? Prior to this, I used a chargemaster to get close, then trickle up to 43.8 exactly using an fx120i scale. Have you ever played with this, or if not, maybe a future video. Again, I appreciate the help as I have only been reloading for 2 years. And I just ordered the liquid graphite. Will see if I get decreased muzzle velocity due to the lube, and if so, readjust my powder charge to get back to my accuracy node.
@@ericschuster6109 I would check out some data that Brian Litz published in a book on the topic of weighing down to a kernel. I think he found that it does matter at long range (I.e., 600+ yards). I am about to make a video in some testing at short range where at 200 yards, an electronic thrower (precise to .1) does better than a manual thrower. At 100, they were the same. Good stuff!!
What about Hornady One-shot lube?
Never tried it for interior neck lube but it works great for sizing! Sized many thousands of brass pieces with ole One-Shot.
@@WitchDoctorPrecision so do you clean the brass after resizing and then apply the neolube? (so there's no one-shot residual inside the neck)
@@FearlessMagpie yes, I clean the brass. I don’t routinely use One-Shot so most of my brass has nothing added inside the neck when I add the Neolube 2.
up 2 clicks!!!