I guess a VR simulation would explain why the citizens at the end of the game are just walking around oblivious to the literal catastrophe that just happened.
It wasn't. In MGS2's ending, it's clearly established that was real downtown Manhattan, just off of Wall Street. The reason why there's a lot of citizens going about their daily lives is because that's how that place is. It's very busy and that's the hub of it all. If you paid attention in the cutscene, a crime scene was set up around where Solidus died(or almost does anyway) over the Lincoln statue and Arsenal Gear's debris. Snake established he left a tracker, or simply tracked down where Liquid's direction to wherever he's going with Ray. Otherwise it'd be a Codec call if he was still on the move. It's likely the Kamov picked him up from Otacon. Not just that, but the theme and reminder of the game's ending stresses on finding what to pass on(genes). It shows New York to do this, and the characters are all there. They didn't go anywhere yet. Rose and Jack go on a date after Jack whispers something the player doesn't hear in her ear. Snake contacts Otacon in the post-credits "call" like MGS3(implying he isn't near him in a direct conversation like MGS4). That's all that can really be gleaned from why this isn't a VR simulation ending. The VR simulation comes from Raiden's manipulation of the AI during his life in New York with Rose prior to his Big Shell mission(the in-between 2 years backstory of them). It's stated in Codec calls Rose lived as an agent to spy on Jack-the AI telling him this, not Rose(or intervening if she's actually on it). She was also being controlled during all this, only being free by the end of the game and since she seemed to not know him, they'd try to reestablish a relationship(which obviously fails)because Raiden leaves her pregnant in the the five years leading to MGS4, also rescuing Sunny-presumably over guilt of Olga's death). I hope this answer thoroughly your speculation, and feel free to comment if you think differently. Disagreement does stir conversation, afterall.
As an admitted "MGS was a VR Mission" fanboy (it's jsut so much fun) I still liked your write-up and read through it all. It makes complete sense, don't get me wrong. But it's only out of necessity. That is to say that Kojima never intended to make a Metal Gear Solid 4. The 2 big statements he wanted to convey were about Genes and Memes. And he accomplished that. So when people talk about his Magnum Opus, they should always be referring to 2 in my book. The ending of MGS2 was supposed to be it. That's why it's so jarring and in reality, kind of depressing (Really depressing). In retrospect, seeing that Statue of Liberty, and the finality of it all, you knew that it was over. But the fans wanted more and that's why both MGS3 and 4 were made, actually. Is this partly Kojima's fault for trying to convey a message to a bunch of pre-pubescent boys (his main audience)? Absolutely. MGS3 turned out to be one of the best in the franchise (and Yes, it IS very good and incredibly memeable) so naturally more people gravitated toward it. People I knew in college who previously had no idea what "Metal Gear" was, knew of and played 3 almost religiously. The other thing is that 2 just plays like a VR mission. Everything is so clean and trim. I mean I could really go into this, but I'll just say that they toy with it a lot. In fact, when Plissken (Snake) jsut appears out of nowhere (a theme that echoes Lucid's point), he makes fun of Raiden talking about how realistic VR is. "A Virtual Grunt of the Digital Age, that's just GREAT" At the very end, he appears out of nowhere again for like the umpteenth time to console Raiden and give him practical advice when Raiden finally realizes he may be inside the Matrix. I could go into this more but it may be for another time. The last thing I'll say is that the game is actually a parody of MGS1 through and through. It's literally the exact same plot but with Raiden on a Shell. That's what's so damn funny about it, actually.
@@HomeStudioBasics mgs2 isn’t a parody of MGS1. It’s a parody of MGS1 being a repeat of MG2 which was a repeat of MG1, basically it takes the shit of the entire series and philosophizes about it
@@CCDaDon15Right. You know what I meant lol. For the latter 2, are you referring to the original Metal Gear from 1987 and then Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake? I actually just bought the legacy collection (digital version) and playing through the original games for the first time. I now completely understand why Snake was the way he was, and why he was so bitter for all those years after. Imagine doing a mission for your boss (big boss/outer heaven) going through the whole thing only to find out that he's the enemy and that you were tricked lol. Snake had every right to be as cynical as he was, but I'm glad he met Meryl who softened him a little.
Jak And Daxter 👏👏👏👏 Someone with a brain. Sure, parts of it may be Jacks already messed up psyche filling things in while repressing others. The Tanker Mission might have been completely VR. But, within the story, Raiden was trained by Solidus, Recruited by Cypher, and sent to the Big Shell by the Patriot A.I. on a mission with two purposes 1) To find out if Raidens training was actually enough to keep him under Patriot Control (edit: Patriot A.I. Control), despite being presented with the truth of his past and 2) To eliminate a group of soldiers (DeadCell and Solidus) that broke free of Patriot A.I. Control because of that meddling Russian Cowboy.
I'm sure the "Infinite ammo" headband is just a reference to one of the special items you get after completing MGS 1. That doesn't disprove this theory but... yeah.
You can. You just gave me a flashback to back in the day when i had a cheat disc for the PS2. You could start with all the items including the highest level keycard. If I remember rightly you could actually go out to the Shell 1-2 bridge and see Snake going across it in the box.
lol i dont know about that... i got the bandana by collecting dog tags... after 80% of them collected, if i remember correctly, you ll unlock it... im not saying ur wrong, but i did that cheat on the first mgs and what happens when you use a high level key card in the beginning of the game, is that the game will automatically skips progress and you find urself in another part of the game timeline...
I may well be making it up but I seem to recall that happening. It's been many years since I played it, I might try going through it on an emulator at some point. I do remember that though, you could fly through the first game doing that.
But it makes me wonder now, was it really Snake from MGS1 saying it, or the VR Snake from this theory? Either way it doesn't matter, but it really makes me wonder now.
We have been living in a society that dictates the media, political atmosphere, and ideals. Nobody is right or wrong it just depends on how much you believe that you are right and how much you are willing to sacrifice for your goals that you deem ideal. Everything we experienced through this life is ours, we we choose to do with these experiences living our life from now on is our choice.
The continuity errors (Famas, running from the flooding ship) seem to me to indicate that what snake says when he doubts the accuracy of Raiden’s VR tanker mission is accurate. The official story( which Raiden quotes) is that snake blew up the ship and went down with it. To me this just means that we played, and saw the real events of the tanker.
Lerpus B. Derp kinda mad that he didnt mention that pre rendered cutscene was actually the 10 min trailer teaser that was released at GDC back in 2000, but i guess it serves to the plotline
I always assumed the characters were talking directly to you as the player when they were talking about video games creating the perfect soldiers. Or anything about the mass simulation we call society. It's amazing how relevant this game and it's message is in this day in age. To not control content but to create context. The fuckin narrative in this game is amazing, better than any hollywood movie out there. Just beat this game for the first time like an hour ago and I'm mindblown. I beat the first game in the 90s but for some reason why after all these years never even looked at any of the sequels and finally decided to try one last night. Moving on to metal gear solid 3 now! But I had to see if anyone else out there was getting the simulation vibes that I was getting from this game and found this video. Parts of the narrative gave me legitimate chills when I thought about the reality of the world we live in. Colonel Cambell's final codec speech before you fight solidus especially.
Raiden makes a point that "VR is indistinguishable from reality." Also you have to remember that MGS 4 was never meant to happen. MGS 2 was meant to be the last of the series. Meaning that the argument that MGS 2 was a VR still stands. Even when MGS 4 retcons it. Just because MGS 4 retcons it, doesn't stop the events of the game itself being a VR mission. Consider the evidence. - The final room before comforting Solidus is exactly the same room in Metal Gear VR Missions that measures your progress. - When Solid Snake dies, he gets the classic game over screen. When Raiden dies, he gets a game over screen that says "Mission Failed" which is the same exact game over screen you get when you die in a VR mission. - The AI Colonel constantly refers to the mission as a "game" and a "simulation". - After the worm cluster is uploaded into Arsenal, we can see lines of code going through the game. In fact, the entire geometry of the Arsenal makes no sense. It's a if Arsenal is inside a bottomless black pit instead of a naval ship. It's also worth mentioning that the Arsenal in MGS 4 looks absolutely nothing like the one in MGS 2. - How was Raiden supposed to get through the oil fence without Snake doing it for him? - The names of the characters becomes more VR and fake like when you actually take their names and put them into the context of computing. For example Raiden, real name Jack. Is a way for the players to "jack' themselves into the game because he's the main playable character. The Colonel becomes the kernel. Kernel is a term for a computer program that has complete control over an operating system. In the same way that the Colonel is their to guide Raiden through the mission and make sure the completes the simulation. The node system in the game becomes the literal definition of a node. A literal way to connect the player to the game through the player giving the game personal information. It's obvious that when MGS 2 was made and played. It was intended to be a VR mission. In order to make the player question reality. Just like Raiden does towards the end of the game. Kojima left enough hints to make it debatable, to make you question what was real and what was not.
I enjoy the debate as much as anyone else, but I also like how the game itself puts it "find the meaning behind the words, then come to your own conclusion". Like, the game is literally spelling it out like no matter what anybody else tells you, what YOU thought was going on, and the emotions, experiences and conclusions you draw yourself are entirely the point of the game. It's trying to get you to exercise the free will that Raiden couldn't. So you could take the experiences you had with the game and find your own way of interpreting it. The message is solid. @@MisterAK103 - What you said about Raiden being part of FOXHOUND is slightly wrong. Because during that early conversation between Raiden and Snake, one or the other is misinformed and it is definitely Raiden, considering the context of the rest of the game and how uninformed he is throughout. We DO realise that Raiden is a puppet of the simulation, but Snake is entirely right when he says "I thought FOXHOUND was disbanded". It harkens back to the earlier Metal Gear games when Snake was part of FOXHOUND and Campbell was his commander, it gives more gravity to Raiden's feeling of being a Legendary Mercenary if he believes he's a part of the same elite unit Snake was once a part of being commanded by the same guy Snake took orders from, despite - by his own admission - having never met the man prior to the mission. However, there is no FOXHOUND, only Raiden's - and the player's - desire to live out the dream of being a legend. Like most of the game, it's another deception; FOXHOUND doesn't exist. Oh, and I debate the idea that Raiden was ever working for the Patriots. "They died about 100 years ago" obviously references the Philosophers, and we all know the story now of the power struggle, but that's irrelevant as the game hadn't fleshed out that part of the story. The part that I latched onto was the idea that GW was fighting for total control. Even the President says he never met them himself, and that his orders were received via a cut-out. It seems to me that the orders were already being dished out at this point by GW under the guise of the "Patriots". Raiden being drafted in could easily have been construed by the AI. It was the AI's objective all along to attempt the simulation, and eventually override any human's input into how the history books were written, which also ties in to Solidus' plans. He wanted to hijack GW and use it as a bargaining chip so he could find "a place among their ranks". He wanted his name to be remembered. Ironic had he actually succeeded in hijacking it only to find out that the Patriots didn't exist. Of course, the President got roped into it because he originally thought his and Solidus' goals aligned with one another. But "I sought power, he sought destruction", and in realising what destruction would mean for society, chose to end his own life to prevent Solidus from achieving his goal. And that brings more questions as to who was right there? The President saw the benefits of the AI, opting to give up whatever power he COULD have had for the sake of maintaining society as it was, and allowing the AI to succeed. However, Solidus' ideals align more with your average person. Even Max, the creator of this video himself, says he'd prefer a world where he WASN'T controlled by the AI than one where his entire reality was meticulously constructed by one. So if anything...does that makes Solidus the good guy? And Raiden, by carrying out GW's final orders, also helps the AI succeed. So in a very Mitchell and Webb way, "Are we the baddies?". It's one thing I love about the MGS series. There's no outright good/bad guy thing going on. EVERYONE is in a moral grey area, and the game loves to play on that.
Saying MGS2 is a VR because yes means nothing If it was a VR mission, the patriots wouldn't even have a involvement in it at all, MGS4 was ment to exist as we can see in some magazines on MGS3
MGS2 ain't a simulation, I haven't played MGS4, but the colonel constantly states that Snake and Otacon aren't part of the simulation, which means A simulation of Raiden dealing with that area does exist, but Snake and Otacon don't appear, in terms of the game being the last, it clearly left room for a continuation.
@@bsully98 i think he is on to something maybe not exact but the theme of the game is what is real and people kinda beliving things against their will but i dont know enough about all the games to know
I forgot how good this game was! I remember playing it when it first came out, when I was 12, and Snake was my hero back then. Those last couple lines had a huge impact on my life. "Don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide" and "You can find your own name, and your own future." Coming from a single mother who only had a high school education and living in poverty, that was huge for me. I made my own future outside of that upbringing, so I guess you can say it still is. And even to this day, I don't ponder so much what people say, as to what the words mean. I've seen theories that the entire mission was VR before, but never really bothered to do any research before watching this video just now. It's an interesting idea. I think there's definitely some merit to it, but I wonder how much of it has to be written off as production oversight/in game references/ suspension of disbelief/technical limitations. Like that "infinite ammo" remark. If I hadn't already played MGS1, I wouldn't have understood the reference. The "lady luck" incident; in a universe where there are gigantic walking nuke platforms, psychics, shamen lugging around guns meant to be mounted on fighter planes, nanomachines, and a virus engineered to only attack certain DNA patterns, suspension of disbelief is certainly a thing.
Yeah, Snake speeches were a huge thing for me too. I remember I was playing this game for the story when I was starting my dream of being an artist and I was fucking scared because the dream was so big. "We can tell other people about - having faith. What we had faith in. What we found important enough to fight for. It's not whether you were right or wrong, but how much faith you were willing to have, that decides the future" and "Find something to believe in, and find it for yourself" Those kinds of lines were a candle in the darkness for me in those times.
@@playstationplaystation3385 i believe he meant to say that the way the game was made and the story behind all the characters plots etc has to come from a tormented person. so he probably saying kojima is a demented sick individual. just my guess
*I think the tanker chapter was a VR simulation attempting to piece together snakes infiltration which is why there's inconsistencies. I think everything else is just part of the AI manipulating Raiden and seeing if he will disobey orders if they nudge certain variables.*
In MGS2 Substance there's a VR sort of mission in "snake tales" which replicates Snake's infiltration of the tanker with slight differences in the story, like him using the MGS1 Sneaking suit and meeting Meryl on the Tanker. Anyway, this could be a reference to the VR Training Raiden has done of Snake's infiltration of the tanker
Mgs4 doesn't invalidate this theory. This is why. If both chapters are VR then what stops it all being a fictional game version of real events that Snake and Raiden actually went through. Mgs2 is based on real events but we never got to play those. They weren't accurately simulated!
"I doubt it accurately simulates the events of that mission." I always remember that quote when I play MGS4. The events as we saw them in VR and what really happened in the Big Shell are different.
MGS3 The Boss makes her will known, in 4 we see the final pieces on the board in the struggle for control all due to her misinterpreted ideals. From the beginning Snake never wanted to be a hero, and in the end he persevered and ended the reign of the Philosophers. Without ever knowing her Snake ended the cycle. It's pretty obvious if you play 4 to the end. It's wrapped in a nice bow for everyone.
people are missing the point of MGS everyone was warped into thinking they were either the legendary big Boss, fighting for his cause, or fighting alongside him.....the franchise was built on a code name prior to the aftermath of snake eater, and will forever live, his legacy is his protege, weather it be, liquid, solid, solidus, Venom, Raiden, the Genome, the Diamond Dogs, the Fox Unit, the Peace Walker movement, sniper wolf, lady luck and her father, decoy octopus....all except ocelot, campbell and members of the cobra unit with their leaders, all were trying to follow into big Boss footsteps in their own twisted way.
I'm really late but i feel like the entire big shell incident happens twice for Raiden. Once based in reality, and once as a simulation while he was being transformed into a Cyborg ninja.
9:06 Notice how he points to his head, more specifically to his bandana. I think it's important to mention that snake's line in the Japanese dub translates to "Infinity bandana," which is meant to be a nod to the bandana item from MGS1. I think we can assume the item throughout the series is canon, partially due to the admission by sigint in MGS3 that infinite ammo technology is possible, although sure, that is technically from a later series in our time, even if in the mgs chronology mgs3 came first. However, even if we don't assume it's canon, and it's some kind of joke or convenient plot device, then we can assume a good number of these points to be a meta in-joke as well, only serving the purpose of plot convenience or meta humor by the team itself. This is primarily due to the fact that we then permit the suspense of disbelief when it comes to inconvenient facts and/or in-jokes. We could just say the entire series occurs in a simulation, and mgs2 is a simulation of a simulation, but that's only through the fact that it's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, and thanks to Occam's razor that can be disregarded easily.
Max Derrat well your theory was right regardless. Because remember, as you said this was said to be the last game. I'm positive this game was left off to be interpreted leaving everything open, where it was at the time meant to be seen as a VR but because the 4th sequel existed, it was forced to retcon for continuity. I support your theory of what this was meant to be before hand.
Max Derrat one more juicy hole, the footage of snake with a FAMAS and escaping the sinking tanker was part of the trailers and promos, probably cut content or removed that they still wanted somewhere ingame because they didnt want to waste.
That means that more than 1 game out the series was a VR Simulation. Video Game theory did a great video on MGS3 Being a VR Simulation for Venom Snake would awaken with the knowledge, moveset & ideals of Big Boss. Video link here: th-cam.com/video/sMTtWXtpYhU/w-d-xo.html Pretty Compelling stuff if you ask me.
What if the entire metal gear series and every game in it is actually in VR simulations for training members of the U.S. special forces. That would easily explain away the so-called alternate history anachronisms that Kojima depicted as set in the future which is now the past for the entire series because it never really happened if it’s just a video game after all, especially if it is just going on inside the minds of soldiers either in some top secret military VR training facility in the present day or set further in an unspecified time in the near or far future. As far as speculations go, It’ll blow your mind either way.
TubbyGeneration135 I love mgs 2 and 3 equally, no preference, though i believe mgs 3 has more replayability. I must have. finished that game 25-30 times, and Im absolutely serious
It's not just that it holds up. It has actually matured very well over time and is arguably more relevant today with its themes of censorship and the control of information playing out almost like a social commentary on the current state of traditional, new, and social media.
God this game is so cool. Metal gear games usually have me hooked when the story gets intense but this one actually had me on the edge of my seat and I meant that literally. I scooted up and bent over staring intently at the screen watching the cutscenes leading up to the Solidus fight with the most iron hard focus I have ever had
No, it wasn't. Snakes presence on the Big Shell was never factored in to S3, yet he was there. Secondly, Snake and Otacon obtain a disk from Emma, which after the end credits they find it contains information on the Patriots, 12 people who all died 100 years ago. Now, if the Big Shell mission was VR, that disk would not exist in reality, so the end narrative wouldn't be possible. Third, S3 was a final test of GWs capabilities, they needed real world test data to complete GW. Raiden's extensive VR experience would come in to play as he struggles to feel what is real and what isn't, even questioning his relationship with Rose. Raiden's experience of VR has altered his perception of reality. Snake hints at this when he first meets Raiden as Pliskin. Forth, Rose turns up in person at the end. Fifth, the Tanker chapter flash backs are public perception of what happened, Snake out right murdering people, shooting the tanker up like a mad man. I could go on but yeah that's enough for now
If Snake wasnt factored in then how was Raiden supposed to get into the plant in the first place? He got in because of the hole in the wire fence that Snake cut. He went in without any equipment to speak of as part of OSP. There is no Plant chapter without Snake. Snake is definitely part of the simulation. Unless you beLIEve the colonel ;P There is no merit or value to the disc, that's the entire point. It says the patriots are a bunch of 100 year old dead dudes. A junk disc spewing nonsense doesn't disprove anything. Its function in the narrative is to give the sense that the entire mission was pointless even for Snake and Otacon, nothing good came out of it for anyone. The VR simulation being the Patriots plan for societal control isnt evidence against VR theory it's evidence that supports it, derp Rose showing up just brings the unreality of the game into further question. Where in the holy shits did she COME FROM? how and why is she SUDDENLY in the new york financial district at the perfect time to meet up with raiden? Why is Raiden not questioning the revelation she told him about being a completely manufactured identity or all the crazy shit she was saying over the codec before and during the final boss? Her presence in the ending supports VR theory not disproves it. The flashbacks are flashbacks they have no meaning or purpose or input on vr theory one way or the other
@@randomfox12245 it’s obvious that Raiden was meant to cut his own way in, just because as the player you don’t have access to the tools, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t briefed and had the equipment available to get in. You’re missing the point about the disc. If the mission was VR, it wouldn’t exist in the real world. That’s the point. Again, they needed REAL data, not a controllable simulation. They needed to factor in the random occurrences that can’t be predicted by a simulation. Derp. Where did Rose come from? That’s an equally good question whether the mission was VR or not. Raiden knows the AI has been messing with him, so he knows a lot of what happened with Rose’ transmissions towards the end of the mission wasn’t actually her. She also tells him to see her as who she is. So yes, it does disprove it. Solidus; the dude was working with Ocelot during the events of Shadow Moses against the Patriots. Why the hell would he agree to enter a VR mission with them? 😂 If the mission was VR then the Tanker incident wouldn’t have been necessary to set up the Big Shell incident. I mentioned the flash backs because they were spoken about in the video.
What sets the VR theory apart from most dream or coma theories is that it actually has supporting evidence that's not just "wow, fiction is weird. Y'know what else is weird? Dreams". In addition the VR theory fits into MGS2 and the series at large thematically which dream theories almost never do
That moment with naked Raiden and Snake popping out of nowhere always disturbed me, as a kid. I could spend a while going back and forth in this corridor until Snake eventually "popped in existence" and I never questioned why, until now...
I always thought that the Plant Chapter did happen... but the Tanker chapter was the simulation version that Raiden went through. That's why the clips we see later, showing the truth, was different. The version we played was similar, but missing those extra details. But I always did really like this game, and definitely underrated. Even if the Boss battles aren't the best, running around the Tanker and Plant is just so much fun. And the extra missions on the disc may even be more interesting. (The bomb disposals and such)
New theory. Kojima like most great artists have many interests they use their art to explore, their art is like an umbrella where he can shift from topic to topic and if some narrative meets a dead end it's up the the viewers interpretation. This is both the stupid mans theory for everything and I find a true one, he's a genius but I think it's human nature. Think if Elon Musk tried to stick all his ideas into a game some would contradict and some paint aposeing pictures, which is fine because it's art. It's like how comedy works particularly well in horror films...it's countrapontal, counterintuitive yet seemingly against expectation it's right at home. Love Kojima, I think all these theories are why he does what he does, he's a dreamer.
This theory to me is made valid by a piece of dialogue in MGS2 when Campbell mentions to Raiden that he is able to shoot while prone, unlike in his VR simulation.
Me and a friend had this discussion years ago when the game came out. It was possibly a VR Training program for Raiden considering there were not only VR missions in the game to train Raiden, but when you're Solid Snake on the tanker and you die, the view was like a person dying, but when you're Raiden and you die, the screen would become cracked glass and show numbers, coordinates, ammo and such like it was a Cyborgs view of death or a broken simulator. That was a give away that something was up. It was a few years later that we found out, Raiden did indeed became a Cyborg so it may very well be possible that it was either Raidens brain in training, or some kind of simulation of what he went though for the player to experience as a possible trainee for the program? As much as i hate fan theories, the simulation/training one is the ONLY one i even consider thinking about.
Goddamn, i love you. I just finished Inside, so i went ahead for some theories on the narrative and analysis, and i found your video. As soon as i saw you also had a MGS2 one, i knew you were my kinda of guy. MGS2 is also my favorite game of all time. Nothing you say here is new to me, as i've looked into pretty much every theory and analysis of MGS2 there are, but nonetheless it was enjoyable to dive in once again. My take would be that Konami ultimately decided that what Kojima truly intended wouldn't fly, as it would probably leave even more things open to interpretation, and most likely no room for sequel, continuity-wise. As the final product stands, it still had very little room for sequels, and MGS4 brushed that off and answered nothing at all. Hence, why Emma and the post credits codec are there, both to expand on Otacon, setting up for more drama later on, and to end on a sequel bait. There's no simple, clean answer. Like you mentioned, it is and isn't VR. This ties into what Snake mentions, basically stop, assess the world you're in, organize your thoughts, and try to free yourself from whatever you think holds humanity back. It's a mixture of nihilism with redpill that hit me like nothing else ever did before or after. It's the sort of very rare gem that perpetuates itself as time goes on. The older the game gets, the more credit it deserves, and the more things it gets right. The globalist totalitarian control that has been growing ever since the start of 20th century is so masterfully referenced and predicted on that last AI call, it's insane. And the existentialist discussions that can be had with the VR metaphor, those could go on forever.
I interpret this game as a vr simulation with the sole purpose for being a dramatic reenactment of things cause some things in this game really did come into play in the metal gear universe.
I think the reason why you see Snake firing a FMAS in the flashback is that probably that was footage taken from an earlier build of the game. They probably were planning to use a FAMAS but then decided to switch to weapons the US military actually uses like the M-16. I think there are making of documentaries of this game you should check out.
To those who are just replying "no", care to explain? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :) BTW, I think the definitive answer is that MGS2 both "IS" and "ISN'T" a VR simulation... as you'll hear me explain later on in the video.
Great video. This was my favorite MGS game as well. Unlike George Weidman I was pretty disappointed the third game in the MGS series played it so straight as a result. I was expecting more MGS2, but what I felt I got instead was bond.
Tomokazu Fukushima was also involved with writing the story of MGS2. I thinks it's kind of sad how people seem to neglect his involvement and attribute the genius writing solely to Kojima.
Thanks for the shout out. Would you believe I only now have seen your video even though my last video that came out 4 days after yours covered some of the same stuff? So.. I suppose I preemptively have already argued against the theory in that video lol
Allow me to ellaborate further; If its all a VR simulation, Snake has already completed it countless times and has gotten himself the infinite bandana and stealth camo. In a sence he's mocking u if u havent aquired it yet, and letting u know its still around if u complete the game without killing any enemies, which u never really should in a MGS game if u wanna perfect your playthrough.
I'm late to the party here, but the VR theory makes sense. Very engaging video :) I think the dog tags Raiden glances at toward the end reinforce it even more!
11:00 Apparently, this RAY arena was meant to be an infinite MG hanger bay, with no walls no matter how far you go in one direction. A very VR-ish situation dressed as a physical-world location, huh?
MGS3 was one Hell of a Tutorial. Snake said his whole purpose of living was passing on what he could. Maybe the simulation was put together by his allies. A VR simulation based on their experiences to create a successor. Snake was merely there as a Mentor. The Player themselves was basically a Venom Snake MK 2. Well technically Raiden would be the MK 2. So that makes the Player the MK 3. There was a enough suggestion to turn the player into a copy of Snake as well as enough counter suggestion to ease them out of it. Enabling them to retain their own identity as well as the parts of them that essentially makes the new Snake.
gw was probably that similar Ai that had a hand in training Grey fox, as they warp the perceptions of reality resulting in a cyborg capable of taking orders, both vr projects were a failure due to the mental instability of the subjects.
I do think the tanker mission is a VR sim. Snake talking about legends and how they’re different from the real thing, the conflicting gameplay and later footage, and the MGS1 death screen there for the whole mission and a brand new one in the plant mission
This game had a profound effect on me back in 2001-2. I was 10 and this game was too developed and deep for my mind to handle at that time. I honestly thought the game was playing with my mind when it started to breakdown near the end and you got messages to turn off the console, I still vividly remember doing it scared absoloutely shitless as a 10 year old. Like what the actual fuck? This game was the first and actually the last to have that effect on me. Unbelievable. As I got older I started to question reality more and question what we're being told. I then replayed it years after and I could understand the messages and the meaning. A fucking computer game! Except, you're not playing the game, the games playing you. MGS2 was to computer games what the first Matrix film was to movies.
Dan Dan You just said what I thought. I just turned 12 at the release and English is not my first language so some things were a bit harder to understand. What a game. I never played V and I still do not see why I should. I watch videos of it now and then but I get 0 Metal Gear feelings. Such a shame.
I've been looking for a video of someone who actually understood the game and this is it. Everything you said is correct, honestly I don't even think it's debatable whether it was all VR or not, it is and that's a fact. Everyone in the comments just saying "no" obviously doesn't actually understand the game or hasn't played it in years. I'd love to go further into detail with you if you're still interested in this
I haven't played metal gear, silent hill, etc nor do I particularly enjoy anime, but I subscribed to your channel and like your videos because of their psychological and eerie content. Great job here and thank you
Max Derrat man i dont know why but i keep watching this video since it got out , its just so beautiful that someone analyses my fav game since i was 3 !
That last part just hit me. Even if this was all a vr experiment you didn't have much choice in when playing; the experiences you had, the thoughts and feelings during that time, and what you took out of it are yours. What you do and how you handle it is up to you. While the reality of the game is questionable; what we experienced as we played was real. Despite the fiction created from the game, our feelings were fact. Almost 20 years later and I finally get that line.
1:21 HA! As someone who seems to understand Matrix lore much better than my friends, and have often tried to explain it to them, this one sentence really sums the problem up nicely. I will steal it!
MGS2 and 3 are honestly the best ones to me excluding 5. I feel as though number 2 kind of portrayed today's world and compared it to the game. It was beautifully done. Only thing i hate about the mgs2 is the ass camera view and aiming. 3 fixed 2s problems and even expanded more onto the series gameplay functionalities
To this day no other game has impacted my life the way mgs2 did when i was 13.The theories and story of mgs2 still grips my mind to this very day.looking at how the world has unfolded in recent years,and how the game almost predicts modern day life as it is today, does make you wonder about shadow governments, the N.W.O drones that spy on you ,nano machines, and military weapons with stingray characteristics ;) thanks for this video,I've been wanting to look at this one for weeks now.
Hi Max! Huge fan of your videos and fellow Aspie here. Those extra scenes from the tanker mission are from the pre-release build of the game. This is the actual reason why they contain weapons etc. that are not available to the player during that part of the game, not that it's part of a VR mission. Edit: The same is true for the scene with Snake escaping the rapidly flooding compartments. They were part of the game's pre-release build, but we're cut due to the fluid simulations and gameplay experience being considered "not up to par" by Kojima et al. All of this is thoroughly documented and easily available through Google (or by reading the many, many video gaming magazines I bought leading up to the release of MGS2 😊).
The ending you showed at the beginning had me having to check myself cause I played this the day it came out and stayed up till I beat it and after about 20+ straight hours after already being up leading to get the game made me sleep deprived and thinking the game really was talking to me! This is my favorite game just for the feeling of game me as a 12 year old.
Actually I thought Raiden could be trapped in a VR simulation when I played the game as a kid. Especially after listening these lines from Raiden and Snake: « it was all an illusion, everything I’ve done so far », « what I do know is that you’re standing right in front of me, not an illusion, flesh and blood ».
Great video. This'll definitely be a great jumping board if I need to show a friend the evidence for the theory in a relatively short amount of time. Good work, mate.
And this was my very first Metal Gear game I've ever played. No context or information about the past games. I was beyond confused but damn I loved this game.
Most of the events of MGS 2 were (in canon) real, but the player experiences it in a corrupted form, a simulation of the event (i.e., a video game [how meta]).
Actually the part when Snake shoots on the soldiers with Famas on the sinking tanker is a part that was cut from the final game, because Kojima himself said that it was boring, but they left in in the game via flashback cutscene :)
MGS2 can as well happened as it can be a VR simulation at the same time, like in MGS 3 all of that can have happened while we are actually playing a simulation of something that haas already happened just like Raiden plays simulations of the Tanker incident
this theory also makes that speech at the end more meaningful... I mean- what the Patriots IA's say makes sense both for Raiden and for the player since this whole time they've been going through a simulation that was already programmed to happen in a certain way: built so that we (Raiden and player) could succeed, which invalidates every moment of triumph we both might've had since- it was planned to be like that from the beginning. it wasn't really our own merit
I always assumed that the discrepancies you mentioned was due to the VR training and the effect it had on his mind. Snake mentioned that it creates a diffuse sense of reality, but maybe it also gave video and audio illusions that help Raiden cope with the mission, by showing everything is just another simulation.
I'm late to the party on this one, but I have to say this is definitely not beyond Kojima. I hail him for his amazing story building and intense plot twists.
In the MGS2 documentary video on the PS2 disk, Hideo Kojima stated that the tanker water eacape scene was scrapped because it was too much effort (programming) for no real bonus (in game excitement terms). And that the 'infinite ammo banada' was a reference to an old MGS cheat drom a previous game.
As far as the infinite ammo bandana being a reference to the old MGS cheat, obviously. In respect to the water escape sequence, that makes sense. The thing is, both your assertions can be true at the same time that mine could be true.
@@maxderrat that's true, both theories are a possibility. And we all know how much Hideo Kojima liked to weave complex story lines which would make the VR theory that much more believable. Just in case you haven't seen the documentary to MGS2 here is the link: th-cam.com/video/eJVYND_YRx8/w-d-xo.html Hideo talks about the water scene at about 11:10. I misremembered what he said. He said the technical aspect was feasible but that it added no gameplay value. (sorry I cant do a time stamped link, I don't know how).
1 2 and 3 are all masterpieces! But I have probably played this game more than any of the others. The complex story line is amazing and I liked playing as Raiden, it gave an outside perspective of Snake.
I guess a VR simulation would explain why the citizens at the end of the game are just walking around oblivious to the literal catastrophe that just happened.
Also that, just like snake they appear from nowhere.
It wasn't. In MGS2's ending, it's clearly established that was real downtown Manhattan, just off of Wall Street. The reason why there's a lot of citizens going about their daily lives is because that's how that place is. It's very busy and that's the hub of it all.
If you paid attention in the cutscene, a crime scene was set up around where Solidus died(or almost does anyway) over the Lincoln statue and Arsenal Gear's debris.
Snake established he left a tracker, or simply tracked down where Liquid's direction to wherever he's going with Ray. Otherwise it'd be a Codec call if he was still on the move. It's likely the Kamov picked him up from Otacon.
Not just that, but the theme and reminder of the game's ending stresses on finding what to pass on(genes). It shows New York to do this, and the characters are all there. They didn't go anywhere yet. Rose and Jack go on a date after Jack whispers something the player doesn't hear in her ear. Snake contacts Otacon in the post-credits "call" like MGS3(implying he isn't near him in a direct conversation like MGS4).
That's all that can really be gleaned from why this isn't a VR simulation ending. The VR simulation comes from Raiden's manipulation of the AI during his life in New York with Rose prior to his Big Shell mission(the in-between 2 years backstory of them). It's stated in Codec calls Rose lived as an agent to spy on Jack-the AI telling him this, not Rose(or intervening if she's actually on it). She was also being controlled during all this, only being free by the end of the game and since she seemed to not know him, they'd try to reestablish a relationship(which obviously fails)because Raiden leaves her pregnant in the the five years leading to MGS4, also rescuing Sunny-presumably over guilt of Olga's death).
I hope this answer thoroughly your speculation, and feel free to comment if you think differently. Disagreement does stir conversation, afterall.
As an admitted "MGS was a VR Mission" fanboy (it's jsut so much fun) I still liked your write-up and read through it all. It makes complete sense, don't get me wrong. But it's only out of necessity. That is to say that Kojima never intended to make a Metal Gear Solid 4. The 2 big statements he wanted to convey were about Genes and Memes. And he accomplished that. So when people talk about his Magnum Opus, they should always be referring to 2 in my book.
The ending of MGS2 was supposed to be it. That's why it's so jarring and in reality, kind of depressing (Really depressing). In retrospect, seeing that Statue of Liberty, and the finality of it all, you knew that it was over. But the fans wanted more and that's why both MGS3 and 4 were made, actually. Is this partly Kojima's fault for trying to convey a message to a bunch of pre-pubescent boys (his main audience)? Absolutely.
MGS3 turned out to be one of the best in the franchise (and Yes, it IS very good and incredibly memeable) so naturally more people gravitated toward it. People I knew in college who previously had no idea what "Metal Gear" was, knew of and played 3 almost religiously.
The other thing is that 2 just plays like a VR mission. Everything is so clean and trim. I mean I could really go into this, but I'll just say that they toy with it a lot. In fact, when Plissken (Snake) jsut appears out of nowhere (a theme that echoes Lucid's point), he makes fun of Raiden talking about how realistic VR is. "A Virtual Grunt of the Digital Age, that's just GREAT"
At the very end, he appears out of nowhere again for like the umpteenth time to console Raiden and give him practical advice when Raiden finally realizes he may be inside the Matrix. I could go into this more but it may be for another time.
The last thing I'll say is that the game is actually a parody of MGS1 through and through. It's literally the exact same plot but with Raiden on a Shell. That's what's so damn funny about it, actually.
@@HomeStudioBasics mgs2 isn’t a parody of MGS1. It’s a parody of MGS1 being a repeat of MG2 which was a repeat of MG1, basically it takes the shit of the entire series and philosophizes about it
@@CCDaDon15Right. You know what I meant lol. For the latter 2, are you referring to the original Metal Gear from 1987 and then Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake? I actually just bought the legacy collection (digital version) and playing through the original games for the first time. I now completely understand why Snake was the way he was, and why he was so bitter for all those years after. Imagine doing a mission for your boss (big boss/outer heaven) going through the whole thing only to find out that he's the enemy and that you were tricked lol. Snake had every right to be as cynical as he was, but I'm glad he met Meryl who softened him a little.
It was a simulation, but not a VR simulation.
Jak And Daxter
👏👏👏👏
Someone with a brain.
Sure, parts of it may be Jacks already messed up psyche filling things in while repressing others. The Tanker Mission might have been completely VR.
But, within the story, Raiden was trained by Solidus, Recruited by Cypher, and sent to the Big Shell by the Patriot A.I. on a mission with two purposes
1) To find out if Raidens training was actually enough to keep him under Patriot Control (edit: Patriot A.I. Control), despite being presented with the truth of his past
and
2) To eliminate a group of soldiers (DeadCell and Solidus) that broke free of Patriot A.I. Control because of that meddling Russian Cowboy.
no it's just a video game simulation silly
MGS1 was a simulation too.
When you were playing it it was a VR simulation
@@893loses your fucking lives are a simulation
I'm sure the "Infinite ammo" headband is just a reference to one of the special items you get after completing MGS 1. That doesn't disprove this theory but... yeah.
This guy gets it lol
you can even get it in mgs 2
You can. You just gave me a flashback to back in the day when i had a cheat disc for the PS2. You could start with all the items including the highest level keycard. If I remember rightly you could actually go out to the Shell 1-2 bridge and see Snake going across it in the box.
lol i dont know about that... i got the bandana by collecting dog tags... after 80% of them collected, if i remember correctly, you ll unlock it... im not saying ur wrong, but i did that cheat on the first mgs and what happens when you use a high level key card in the beginning of the game, is that the game will automatically skips progress and you find urself in another part of the game timeline...
I may well be making it up but I seem to recall that happening. It's been many years since I played it, I might try going through it on an emulator at some point. I do remember that though, you could fly through the first game doing that.
Snake's speech at the end makes me shed a tear every time
Thank you
But it makes me wonder now, was it really Snake from MGS1 saying it, or the VR Snake from this theory?
Either way it doesn't matter, but it really makes me wonder now.
FinlandjinM it doesnt make me cry because..."i dont have any more tears to shed"
We have been living in a society that dictates the media, political atmosphere, and ideals. Nobody is right or wrong it just depends on how much you believe that you are right and how much you are willing to sacrifice for your goals that you deem ideal. Everything we experienced through this life is ours, we we choose to do with these experiences living our life from now on is our choice.
It’s incredible...
The continuity errors (Famas, running from the flooding ship) seem to me to indicate that what snake says when he doubts the accuracy of Raiden’s VR tanker mission is accurate. The official story( which Raiden quotes) is that snake blew up the ship and went down with it.
To me this just means that we played, and saw the real events of the tanker.
Lerpus B. Derp kinda mad that he didnt mention that pre rendered cutscene was actually the 10 min trailer teaser that was released at GDC back in 2000, but i guess it serves to the plotline
I always assumed the characters were talking directly to you as the player when they were talking about video games creating the perfect soldiers. Or anything about the mass simulation we call society. It's amazing how relevant this game and it's message is in this day in age. To not control content but to create context. The fuckin narrative in this game is amazing, better than any hollywood movie out there. Just beat this game for the first time like an hour ago and I'm mindblown. I beat the first game in the 90s but for some reason why after all these years never even looked at any of the sequels and finally decided to try one last night. Moving on to metal gear solid 3 now! But I had to see if anyone else out there was getting the simulation vibes that I was getting from this game and found this video. Parts of the narrative gave me legitimate chills when I thought about the reality of the world we live in. Colonel Cambell's final codec speech before you fight solidus especially.
U didn't beat mgs2 in one night.....
Imagine playing this back in 2001! I was 16 and legit got terrified during the final codecs. Crazy how ahead of it’s time it was.
Raiden makes a point that "VR is indistinguishable from reality." Also you have to remember that MGS 4 was never meant to happen. MGS 2 was meant to be the last of the series. Meaning that the argument that MGS 2 was a VR still stands. Even when MGS 4 retcons it. Just because MGS 4 retcons it, doesn't stop the events of the game itself being a VR mission. Consider the evidence.
- The final room before comforting Solidus is exactly the same room in Metal Gear VR Missions that measures your progress.
- When Solid Snake dies, he gets the classic game over screen. When Raiden dies, he gets a game over screen that says "Mission Failed" which is the same exact game over screen you get when you die in a VR mission.
- The AI Colonel constantly refers to the mission as a "game" and a "simulation".
- After the worm cluster is uploaded into Arsenal, we can see lines of code going through the game. In fact, the entire geometry of the Arsenal makes no sense. It's a if Arsenal is inside a bottomless black pit instead of a naval ship. It's also worth mentioning that the Arsenal in MGS 4 looks absolutely nothing like the one in MGS 2.
- How was Raiden supposed to get through the oil fence without Snake doing it for him?
- The names of the characters becomes more VR and fake like when you actually take their names and put them into the context of computing. For example Raiden, real name Jack. Is a way for the players to "jack' themselves into the game because he's the main playable character. The Colonel becomes the kernel. Kernel is a term for a computer program that has complete control over an operating system. In the same way that the Colonel is their to guide Raiden through the mission and make sure the completes the simulation. The node system in the game becomes the literal definition of a node. A literal way to connect the player to the game through the player giving the game personal information.
It's obvious that when MGS 2 was made and played. It was intended to be a VR mission. In order to make the player question reality. Just like Raiden does towards the end of the game. Kojima left enough hints to make it debatable, to make you question what was real and what was not.
KeithRose someone's beem watching super bunnyhop
I enjoy the debate as much as anyone else, but I also like how the game itself puts it "find the meaning behind the words, then come to your own conclusion". Like, the game is literally spelling it out like no matter what anybody else tells you, what YOU thought was going on, and the emotions, experiences and conclusions you draw yourself are entirely the point of the game. It's trying to get you to exercise the free will that Raiden couldn't. So you could take the experiences you had with the game and find your own way of interpreting it. The message is solid.
@@MisterAK103 - What you said about Raiden being part of FOXHOUND is slightly wrong. Because during that early conversation between Raiden and Snake, one or the other is misinformed and it is definitely Raiden, considering the context of the rest of the game and how uninformed he is throughout. We DO realise that Raiden is a puppet of the simulation, but Snake is entirely right when he says "I thought FOXHOUND was disbanded".
It harkens back to the earlier Metal Gear games when Snake was part of FOXHOUND and Campbell was his commander, it gives more gravity to Raiden's feeling of being a Legendary Mercenary if he believes he's a part of the same elite unit Snake was once a part of being commanded by the same guy Snake took orders from, despite - by his own admission - having never met the man prior to the mission. However, there is no FOXHOUND, only Raiden's - and the player's - desire to live out the dream of being a legend. Like most of the game, it's another deception; FOXHOUND doesn't exist.
Oh, and I debate the idea that Raiden was ever working for the Patriots. "They died about 100 years ago" obviously references the Philosophers, and we all know the story now of the power struggle, but that's irrelevant as the game hadn't fleshed out that part of the story. The part that I latched onto was the idea that GW was fighting for total control. Even the President says he never met them himself, and that his orders were received via a cut-out. It seems to me that the orders were already being dished out at this point by GW under the guise of the "Patriots".
Raiden being drafted in could easily have been construed by the AI. It was the AI's objective all along to attempt the simulation, and eventually override any human's input into how the history books were written, which also ties in to Solidus' plans. He wanted to hijack GW and use it as a bargaining chip so he could find "a place among their ranks". He wanted his name to be remembered. Ironic had he actually succeeded in hijacking it only to find out that the Patriots didn't exist. Of course, the President got roped into it because he originally thought his and Solidus' goals aligned with one another. But "I sought power, he sought destruction", and in realising what destruction would mean for society, chose to end his own life to prevent Solidus from achieving his goal.
And that brings more questions as to who was right there? The President saw the benefits of the AI, opting to give up whatever power he COULD have had for the sake of maintaining society as it was, and allowing the AI to succeed. However, Solidus' ideals align more with your average person. Even Max, the creator of this video himself, says he'd prefer a world where he WASN'T controlled by the AI than one where his entire reality was meticulously constructed by one. So if anything...does that makes Solidus the good guy? And Raiden, by carrying out GW's final orders, also helps the AI succeed. So in a very Mitchell and Webb way, "Are we the baddies?".
It's one thing I love about the MGS series. There's no outright good/bad guy thing going on. EVERYONE is in a moral grey area, and the game loves to play on that.
While I don't disagree with your points, the ship in MGS4 was Outer Haven not Arsenal Gear, that's why they don't look alike
Saying MGS2 is a VR because yes means nothing
If it was a VR mission, the patriots wouldn't even have a involvement in it at all, MGS4 was ment to exist as we can see in some magazines on MGS3
MGS2 ain't a simulation, I haven't played MGS4, but the colonel constantly states that Snake and Otacon aren't part of the simulation, which means A simulation of Raiden dealing with that area does exist, but Snake and Otacon don't appear, in terms of the game being the last, it clearly left room for a continuation.
Look at the outline of the codec call.
Raiden has a gun pointed to his head the entire game.
Never thought of it like that
So what does that imply?
@@CorfuGainz He had no choice to believe/follow the orders of the person on the otherside of the codec.
Such a bs theory😂
@@bsully98 i think he is on to something maybe not exact but the theme of the game is what is real and people kinda beliving things against their will but i dont know enough about all the games to know
I forgot how good this game was!
I remember playing it when it first came out, when I was 12, and Snake was my hero back then. Those last couple lines had a huge impact on my life. "Don't obsess over words so much. Find the meaning behind the words, then decide" and "You can find your own name, and your own future."
Coming from a single mother who only had a high school education and living in poverty, that was huge for me. I made my own future outside of that upbringing, so I guess you can say it still is. And even to this day, I don't ponder so much what people say, as to what the words mean.
I've seen theories that the entire mission was VR before, but never really bothered to do any research before watching this video just now. It's an interesting idea. I think there's definitely some merit to it, but I wonder how much of it has to be written off as production oversight/in game references/ suspension of disbelief/technical limitations. Like that "infinite ammo" remark. If I hadn't already played MGS1, I wouldn't have understood the reference. The "lady luck" incident; in a universe where there are gigantic walking nuke platforms, psychics, shamen lugging around guns meant to be mounted on fighter planes, nanomachines, and a virus engineered to only attack certain DNA patterns, suspension of disbelief is certainly a thing.
loved your comment dude
Yeah, Snake speeches were a huge thing for me too.
I remember I was playing this game for the story when I was starting my dream of being an artist and I was fucking scared because the dream was so big.
"We can tell other people about - having faith. What we had faith in. What we found important enough to fight for. It's not whether you were right or wrong, but how much faith you were willing to have, that decides the future"
and "Find something to believe in, and find it for yourself"
Those kinds of lines were a candle in the darkness for me in those times.
MGS2 is Raiden reliving his mission in VR while being brainwashed by the Patriots between The Big Shell Incident and MGS4
Meta Gear Solid
Kojima is a tortured beast.
whud does that mean
@@playstationplaystation3385 i believe he meant to say that the way the game was made and the story behind all the characters plots etc has to come from a tormented person. so he probably saying kojima is a demented sick individual. just my guess
dewitubeX1 Damn
I can't wait for Death Stranding
@@simorlc995 I think Death Stranding just further enforced that idea. Good heart, but torn and branded
*I think the tanker chapter was a VR simulation attempting to piece together snakes infiltration which is why there's inconsistencies. I think everything else is just part of the AI manipulating Raiden and seeing if he will disobey orders if they nudge certain variables.*
In MGS2 Substance there's a VR sort of mission in "snake tales" which replicates Snake's infiltration of the tanker with slight differences in the story, like him using the MGS1 Sneaking suit and meeting Meryl on the Tanker. Anyway, this could be a reference to the VR Training Raiden has done of Snake's infiltration of the tanker
Mgs4 doesn't invalidate this theory. This is why. If both chapters are VR then what stops it all being a fictional game version of real events that Snake and Raiden actually went through. Mgs2 is based on real events but we never got to play those. They weren't accurately simulated!
"I doubt it accurately simulates the events of that mission." I always remember that quote when I play MGS4. The events as we saw them in VR and what really happened in the Big Shell are different.
Who was Snake really? A killer or a stealthy philanthropist Saint?
A hero by accident, who discovered the truth of The Boss' will by accident.
+sdgundum990 how do you figure that exactly?
MGS3 The Boss makes her will known, in 4 we see the final pieces on the board in the struggle for control all due to her misinterpreted ideals. From the beginning Snake never wanted to be a hero, and in the end he persevered and ended the reign of the Philosophers. Without ever knowing her Snake ended the cycle. It's pretty obvious if you play 4 to the end. It's wrapped in a nice bow for everyone.
+sdgundum990 The cycle of revenge?
people are missing the point of MGS everyone was warped into thinking they were either the legendary big Boss, fighting for his cause, or fighting alongside him.....the franchise was built on a code name prior to the aftermath of snake eater, and will forever live, his legacy is his protege, weather it be, liquid, solid, solidus, Venom, Raiden, the Genome, the Diamond Dogs, the Fox Unit, the Peace Walker movement, sniper wolf, lady luck and her father, decoy octopus....all except ocelot, campbell and members of the cobra unit with their leaders, all were trying to follow into big Boss footsteps in their own twisted way.
I'm really late but i feel like the entire big shell incident happens twice for Raiden. Once based in reality, and once as a simulation while he was being transformed into a Cyborg ninja.
I happen to know EXACTLY why things happened the way they did in MGS2, and how everything makes sense
Nanomachines, son!
Oh, shit.
I had to like this to unlike it to like it more you legend
9:06
Notice how he points to his head, more specifically to his bandana. I think it's important to mention that snake's line in the Japanese dub translates to "Infinity bandana," which is meant to be a nod to the bandana item from MGS1.
I think we can assume the item throughout the series is canon, partially due to the admission by sigint in MGS3 that infinite ammo technology is possible, although sure, that is technically from a later series in our time, even if in the mgs chronology mgs3 came first.
However, even if we don't assume it's canon, and it's some kind of joke or convenient plot device, then we can assume a good number of these points to be a meta in-joke as well, only serving the purpose of plot convenience or meta humor by the team itself. This is primarily due to the fact that we then permit the suspense of disbelief when it comes to inconvenient facts and/or in-jokes.
We could just say the entire series occurs in a simulation, and mgs2 is a simulation of a simulation, but that's only through the fact that it's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, and thanks to Occam's razor that can be disregarded easily.
@Context sickness ...or not.
Making more assumptions ("I think we can assume"; "even if we don't assume"... ) doesn't help your Occam's razor point.
I just assumed he meant intelligence.
I KNOW that MGS4 retconned the VR theory. I address that fact early on in the video. Watch the actual video before commenting.
Max Derrat well your theory was right regardless. Because remember, as you said this was said to be the last game. I'm positive this game was left off to be interpreted leaving everything open, where it was at the time meant to be seen as a VR but because the 4th sequel existed, it was forced to retcon for continuity. I support your theory of what this was meant to be before hand.
Max Derrat one more juicy hole, the footage of snake with a FAMAS and escaping the sinking tanker was part of the trailers and promos, probably cut content or removed that they still wanted somewhere ingame because they didnt want to waste.
MGS4 and V are the kings of retconning.
That means that more than 1 game out the series was a VR Simulation. Video Game theory did a great video on MGS3 Being a VR Simulation for Venom Snake would awaken with the knowledge, moveset & ideals of Big Boss.
Video link here: th-cam.com/video/sMTtWXtpYhU/w-d-xo.html
Pretty Compelling stuff if you ask me.
Nihilzen But it's not correct. Not even close really
THEY PLAYED US LIKE A DAMN FIDDLE!!
Snake was so still he was invisible from raiden. Drax could learn something from snake lol
Steve Garvey he could be using that invisible camoflage as well. Couldnt he? Wasnt that something he did on MGS4 too? Or is all just gaming perks?
What if the entire metal gear series and every game in it is actually in VR simulations for training members of the U.S. special forces. That would easily explain away the so-called alternate history anachronisms that Kojima depicted as set in the future which is now the past for the entire series because it never really happened if it’s just a video game after all, especially if it is just going on inside the minds of soldiers either in some top secret military VR training facility in the present day or set further in an unspecified time in the near or far future. As far as speculations go, It’ll blow your mind either way.
MGS2 is the best MGS. (storywise, it still holds up to this day) I will personally fight anyone who disagrees.
it's absolutely the most complex of the MGS games. Best story IMO.
TubbyGeneration135 I love mgs 2 and 3 equally, no preference, though i believe mgs 3 has more replayability. I must have. finished that game 25-30 times, and Im absolutely serious
It's not just that it holds up. It has actually matured very well over time and is arguably more relevant today with its themes of censorship and the control of information playing out almost like a social commentary on the current state of traditional, new, and social media.
yeah right
it doesn't just hold up to this day, it has increasingly become more and more relevant over the years.
God this game is so cool. Metal gear games usually have me hooked when the story gets intense but this one actually had me on the edge of my seat and I meant that literally. I scooted up and bent over staring intently at the screen watching the cutscenes leading up to the Solidus fight with the most iron hard focus I have ever had
No, it wasn't. Snakes presence on the Big Shell was never factored in to S3, yet he was there. Secondly, Snake and Otacon obtain a disk from Emma, which after the end credits they find it contains information on the Patriots, 12 people who all died 100 years ago. Now, if the Big Shell mission was VR, that disk would not exist in reality, so the end narrative wouldn't be possible.
Third, S3 was a final test of GWs capabilities, they needed real world test data to complete GW. Raiden's extensive VR experience would come in to play as he struggles to feel what is real and what isn't, even questioning his relationship with Rose. Raiden's experience of VR has altered his perception of reality. Snake hints at this when he first meets Raiden as Pliskin.
Forth, Rose turns up in person at the end.
Fifth, the Tanker chapter flash backs are public perception of what happened, Snake out right murdering people, shooting the tanker up like a mad man.
I could go on but yeah that's enough for now
DLFLux I forgot they framed snake as a terrorist for the tanker!
You can go on, I find this interesting
If Snake wasnt factored in then how was Raiden supposed to get into the plant in the first place? He got in because of the hole in the wire fence that Snake cut. He went in without any equipment to speak of as part of OSP. There is no Plant chapter without Snake. Snake is definitely part of the simulation. Unless you beLIEve the colonel ;P
There is no merit or value to the disc, that's the entire point. It says the patriots are a bunch of 100 year old dead dudes. A junk disc spewing nonsense doesn't disprove anything. Its function in the narrative is to give the sense that the entire mission was pointless even for Snake and Otacon, nothing good came out of it for anyone.
The VR simulation being the Patriots plan for societal control isnt evidence against VR theory it's evidence that supports it, derp
Rose showing up just brings the unreality of the game into further question. Where in the holy shits did she COME FROM? how and why is she SUDDENLY in the new york financial district at the perfect time to meet up with raiden? Why is Raiden not questioning the revelation she told him about being a completely manufactured identity or all the crazy shit she was saying over the codec before and during the final boss? Her presence in the ending supports VR theory not disproves it.
The flashbacks are flashbacks they have no meaning or purpose or input on vr theory one way or the other
@@randomfox12245 it’s obvious that Raiden was meant to cut his own way in, just because as the player you don’t have access to the tools, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t briefed and had the equipment available to get in.
You’re missing the point about the disc. If the mission was VR, it wouldn’t exist in the real world. That’s the point.
Again, they needed REAL data, not a controllable simulation. They needed to factor in the random occurrences that can’t be predicted by a simulation. Derp.
Where did Rose come from? That’s an equally good question whether the mission was VR or not. Raiden knows the AI has been messing with him, so he knows a lot of what happened with Rose’ transmissions towards the end of the mission wasn’t actually her. She also tells him to see her as who she is. So yes, it does disprove it.
Solidus; the dude was working with Ocelot during the events of Shadow Moses against the Patriots. Why the hell would he agree to enter a VR mission with them? 😂 If the mission was VR then the Tanker incident wouldn’t have been necessary to set up the Big Shell incident.
I mentioned the flash backs because they were spoken about in the video.
@@randomfox12245 and why all of a sudden there are people walking around like nothing happened after the final battle? It doesn't make sense
What sets the VR theory apart from most dream or coma theories is that it actually has supporting evidence that's not just "wow, fiction is weird. Y'know what else is weird? Dreams".
In addition the VR theory fits into MGS2 and the series at large thematically which dream theories almost never do
That moment with naked Raiden and Snake popping out of nowhere always disturbed me, as a kid. I could spend a while going back and forth in this corridor until Snake eventually "popped in existence" and I never questioned why, until now...
I always thought that the Plant Chapter did happen... but the Tanker chapter was the simulation version that Raiden went through. That's why the clips we see later, showing the truth, was different. The version we played was similar, but missing those extra details.
But I always did really like this game, and definitely underrated. Even if the Boss battles aren't the best, running around the Tanker and Plant is just so much fun. And the extra missions on the disc may even be more interesting. (The bomb disposals and such)
New theory. Kojima like most great artists have many interests they use their art to explore, their art is like an umbrella where he can shift from topic to topic and if some narrative meets a dead end it's up the the viewers interpretation.
This is both the stupid mans theory for everything and I find a true one, he's a genius but I think it's human nature. Think if Elon Musk tried to stick all his ideas into a game some would contradict and some paint aposeing pictures, which is fine because it's art.
It's like how comedy works particularly well in horror films...it's countrapontal, counterintuitive yet seemingly against expectation it's right at home.
Love Kojima, I think all these theories are why he does what he does, he's a dreamer.
Love this theory. I'm glad someone is finally making a video about it. MGS2 is a masterpiece.
This theory to me is made valid by a piece of dialogue in MGS2 when Campbell mentions to Raiden that he is able to shoot while prone, unlike in his VR simulation.
I always thought the tanker was real, but the plant was a simulation
Just finished watching Vinny’s playthrough. All I can say is, GENIUS KOJUMBO
Everything about the MGS storyline can be compared with real events. Kojima is a genious for predicting the future.
Me and a friend had this discussion years ago when the game came out.
It was possibly a VR Training program for Raiden considering there were not only VR missions in the game to train Raiden, but when you're Solid Snake on the tanker and you die, the view was like a person dying, but when you're Raiden and you die, the screen would become cracked glass and show numbers, coordinates, ammo and such like it was a Cyborgs view of death or a broken simulator.
That was a give away that something was up. It was a few years later that we found out, Raiden did indeed became a Cyborg so it may very well be possible that it was either Raidens brain in training, or some kind of simulation of what he went though for the player to experience as a possible trainee for the program?
As much as i hate fan theories, the simulation/training one is the ONLY one i even consider thinking about.
I'm glad that the way I articulated the theory was able to stave off your dislike for fan theories temporarily. :) Thanks for the comment!
Goddamn, i love you. I just finished Inside, so i went ahead for some theories on the narrative and analysis, and i found your video. As soon as i saw you also had a MGS2 one, i knew you were my kinda of guy. MGS2 is also my favorite game of all time. Nothing you say here is new to me, as i've looked into pretty much every theory and analysis of MGS2 there are, but nonetheless it was enjoyable to dive in once again.
My take would be that Konami ultimately decided that what Kojima truly intended wouldn't fly, as it would probably leave even more things open to interpretation, and most likely no room for sequel, continuity-wise. As the final product stands, it still had very little room for sequels, and MGS4 brushed that off and answered nothing at all. Hence, why Emma and the post credits codec are there, both to expand on Otacon, setting up for more drama later on, and to end on a sequel bait.
There's no simple, clean answer. Like you mentioned, it is and isn't VR. This ties into what Snake mentions, basically stop, assess the world you're in, organize your thoughts, and try to free yourself from whatever you think holds humanity back. It's a mixture of nihilism with redpill that hit me like nothing else ever did before or after. It's the sort of very rare gem that perpetuates itself as time goes on. The older the game gets, the more credit it deserves, and the more things it gets right. The globalist totalitarian control that has been growing ever since the start of 20th century is so masterfully referenced and predicted on that last AI call, it's insane. And the existentialist discussions that can be had with the VR metaphor, those could go on forever.
That's one more reason why people should'nt buy a playstation VR
"She IS Lady Luck."
"Yeah ok"
the mind is the computer your soul is the player and the body is a virtual controller and the world is the virtual computer.
ConceptYT 🙌🏾💯
Damn... it’s true, it’s damn true!
I interpret this game as a vr simulation with the sole purpose for being a dramatic reenactment of things cause some things in this game really did come into play in the metal gear universe.
I think the reason why you see Snake firing a FMAS in the flashback is that probably that was footage taken from an earlier build of the game. They probably were planning to use a FAMAS but then decided to switch to weapons the US military actually uses like the M-16. I think there are making of documentaries of this game you should check out.
To those who are just replying "no", care to explain? I'd love to hear your thoughts. :) BTW, I think the definitive answer is that MGS2 both "IS" and "ISN'T" a VR simulation... as you'll hear me explain later on in the video.
Confirmed Homoluden. Welcome Brother, to the Patriots.
lmao its kojima kitten
Because nanomachines
Maybe all the characters in mgs2 are in VR to a certain level, for sure the Patriots played everybody like a fiddle :))
I also think it IS and it ISN'T. Kojima wants us to feel like Raiden, not knowing what is real & what not. That being said... he succeeded.
Great video. This was my favorite MGS game as well. Unlike George Weidman I was pretty disappointed the third game in the MGS series played it so straight as a result. I was expecting more MGS2, but what I felt I got instead was bond.
Tomokazu Fukushima was also involved with writing the story of MGS2. I thinks it's kind of sad how people seem to neglect his involvement and attribute the genius writing solely to Kojima.
Thanks for the shout out. Would you believe I only now have seen your video even though my last video that came out 4 days after yours covered some of the same stuff? So.. I suppose I preemptively have already argued against the theory in that video lol
The infinite bandana makes sense bc its an iconic item, its just a reference to make u laugh, like many of Kojimas references. Good video!
Allow me to ellaborate further; If its all a VR simulation, Snake has already completed it countless times and has gotten himself the infinite bandana and stealth camo. In a sence he's mocking u if u havent aquired it yet, and letting u know its still around if u complete the game without killing any enemies, which u never really should in a MGS game if u wanna perfect your playthrough.
I'm late to the party here, but the VR theory makes sense. Very engaging video :) I think the dog tags Raiden glances at toward the end reinforce it even more!
11:00 Apparently, this RAY arena was meant to be an infinite MG hanger bay, with no walls no matter how far you go in one direction. A very VR-ish situation dressed as a physical-world location, huh?
the "it was all a dream" approach works in this game cause it basically convinced us that it doesn't really matter anyway
That end scene though. The legendary character Solid Snake is talking to you, the “player”, breaking it all down and simplifying.
Your pretty good!
Pretty good?
It’s been a long time since I’ve had such a good fight. But I’m just getting warmed up!
I'm glad you addressed this. I think it plays a role in MGSV.
Thinking Thoughts howw??
damn this is so good pls make more video's like this
Sure, dude! Any particular subjects you'd like to see tackled?
Sory I don't have any specific topics in mind but I just love those kind of videos (theories/analysies) and yours are really high quality.
MGS3 was one Hell of a Tutorial.
Snake said his whole purpose of living was passing on what he could.
Maybe the simulation was put together by his allies. A VR simulation based on their experiences to create a successor.
Snake was merely there as a Mentor. The Player themselves was basically a Venom Snake MK 2. Well technically Raiden would be the MK 2. So that makes the Player the MK 3.
There was a enough suggestion to turn the player into a copy of Snake as well as enough counter suggestion to ease them out of it. Enabling them to retain their own identity as well as the parts of them that essentially makes the new Snake.
gw was probably that similar Ai that had a hand in training Grey fox, as they warp the perceptions of reality resulting in a cyborg capable of taking orders, both vr projects were a failure due to the mental instability of the subjects.
Which game tells you an AI trained Gray Fox? I missed that detail and want to look into it
I do think the tanker mission is a VR sim. Snake talking about legends and how they’re different from the real thing, the conflicting gameplay and later footage, and the MGS1 death screen there for the whole mission and a brand new one in the plant mission
This game had a profound effect on me back in 2001-2. I was 10 and this game was too developed and deep for my mind to handle at that time. I honestly thought the game was playing with my mind when it started to breakdown near the end and you got messages to turn off the console, I still vividly remember doing it scared absoloutely shitless as a 10 year old. Like what the actual fuck? This game was the first and actually the last to have that effect on me. Unbelievable. As I got older I started to question reality more and question what we're being told. I then replayed it years after and I could understand the messages and the meaning. A fucking computer game! Except, you're not playing the game, the games playing you. MGS2 was to computer games what the first Matrix film was to movies.
Dan Dan You just said what I thought. I just turned 12 at the release and English is not my first language so some things were a bit harder to understand. What a game. I never played V and I still do not see why I should. I watch videos of it now and then but I get 0 Metal Gear feelings. Such a shame.
i got so spooked i actually turned off my xbox ;P
I was 18 and spooked the same.
2021 would've been the best year for a remastered version of MS2 💯
I didn't even know this was a theory this seemed like it was just the plot of the game
I've been looking for a video of someone who actually understood the game and this is it. Everything you said is correct, honestly I don't even think it's debatable whether it was all VR or not, it is and that's a fact. Everyone in the comments just saying "no" obviously doesn't actually understand the game or hasn't played it in years. I'd love to go further into detail with you if you're still interested in this
This was amazing. If you think deeply enough perhaps you may find parallels between the life of Raiden and your own.
I haven't played metal gear, silent hill, etc nor do I particularly enjoy anime, but I subscribed to your channel and like your videos because of their psychological and eerie content. Great job here and thank you
Max Derrat man i dont know why but i keep watching this video since it got out , its just so beautiful that someone analyses my fav game since i was 3 !
Thank you for mentioning Super Bunnyhop's video. I love his videos. This video is great too.
Plot twist: All the metal gear franchise is a VR mission
That was brilliant mate. Loved every second of it. I subbed
That last part just hit me. Even if this was all a vr experiment you didn't have much choice in when playing; the experiences you had, the thoughts and feelings during that time, and what you took out of it are yours. What you do and how you handle it is up to you. While the reality of the game is questionable; what we experienced as we played was real. Despite the fiction created from the game, our feelings were fact. Almost 20 years later and I finally get that line.
Most underrated game ever, playing this on day of the release for the first time was like being the hero in the best movie, chills the entire time.
Watched some of your vids today and it made me re-buy the HD collection on my Xbone lol.
This is the deepest Game in the franchise....My favourite by far
1:21
HA!
As someone who seems to understand Matrix lore much better than my friends, and have often tried to explain it to them, this one sentence really sums the problem up nicely. I will steal it!
Well I find it interesting that Big Shell is modeled after big boss' base in MGS5
I think that Dead Cell was more memorable than The Cobras
Well, it wasn't because MGS4, or it was until MGS4 had to be made... Nice theory and ideas, though, and it's always nice to watch your game videos.
MGS2 and 3 are honestly the best ones to me excluding 5. I feel as though number 2 kind of portrayed today's world and compared it to the game. It was beautifully done. Only thing i hate about the mgs2 is the ass camera view and aiming. 3 fixed 2s problems and even expanded more onto the series gameplay functionalities
I agree about the camera problem, it can't even beat MGS1 ass camera which is ass in good term lol
To this day no other game has impacted my life the way mgs2 did when i was 13.The theories and story of mgs2 still grips my mind to this very day.looking at how the world has unfolded in recent years,and how the game almost predicts modern day life as it is today, does make you wonder about shadow governments, the N.W.O drones that spy on you ,nano machines, and military weapons with stingray characteristics ;) thanks for this video,I've been wanting to look at this one for weeks now.
Hi Max! Huge fan of your videos and fellow Aspie here.
Those extra scenes from the tanker mission are from the pre-release build of the game. This is the actual reason why they contain weapons etc. that are not available to the player during that part of the game, not that it's part of a VR mission.
Edit: The same is true for the scene with Snake escaping the rapidly flooding compartments. They were part of the game's pre-release build, but we're cut due to the fluid simulations and gameplay experience being considered "not up to par" by Kojima et al.
All of this is thoroughly documented and easily available through Google (or by reading the many, many video gaming magazines I bought leading up to the release of MGS2 😊).
This was an excellent analysis, great video!
The ending you showed at the beginning had me having to check myself cause I played this the day it came out and stayed up till I beat it and after about 20+ straight hours after already being up leading to get the game made me sleep deprived and thinking the game really was talking to me! This is my favorite game just for the feeling of game me as a 12 year old.
Actually I thought Raiden could be trapped in a VR simulation when I played the game as a kid. Especially after listening these lines from Raiden and Snake: « it was all an illusion, everything I’ve done so far », « what I do know is that you’re standing right in front of me, not an illusion, flesh and blood ».
Great video. This'll definitely be a great jumping board if I need to show a friend the evidence for the theory in a relatively short amount of time. Good work, mate.
MGS2 was my first MG game. Its one of my two favourite games of all time (with FFX...I played both when I was 11/12).
just here to mention how the 1 second of preview footage perfectly syncs up with the thumbnail
And this was my very first Metal Gear game I've ever played. No context or information about the past games. I was beyond confused but damn I loved this game.
Most of the events of MGS 2 were (in canon) real, but the player experiences it in a corrupted form, a simulation of the event (i.e., a video game [how meta]).
Fiction keeps us living our realities like Rose or Snake keep Raiden from going insane in the simulation... Awesome video man
This is how I felt when I first played it. It's brilliant if you ask me.
If you work hard, you can use the VR theory for his appearance in mgs4 too
It is the best one. The psychology of it and prescient themes are spot on. Plus it was super meta. A psychedelic album of a game.
Actually the part when Snake shoots on the soldiers with Famas on the sinking tanker is a part that was cut from the final game, because Kojima himself said that it was boring, but they left in in the game via flashback cutscene :)
MGS2 can as well happened as it can be a VR simulation at the same time, like in MGS 3 all of that can have happened while we are actually playing a simulation of something that haas already happened just like Raiden plays simulations of the Tanker incident
I get called shit but I do think MGS2 is the best in the series and up there with being one the best games of all time
This may have been said already., but the scene with the FAMAS is taken from the Japanese demo trailer.
I can't believe after all these years and plays I didn't realize that the ray platform is the same platform from mgsvr's photo missions
this theory also makes that speech at the end more meaningful... I mean- what the Patriots IA's say makes sense both for Raiden and for the player since this whole time they've been going through a simulation that was already programmed to happen in a certain way: built so that we (Raiden and player) could succeed, which invalidates every moment of triumph we both might've had since- it was planned to be like that from the beginning. it wasn't really our own merit
I always assumed that the discrepancies you mentioned was due to the VR training and the effect it had on his mind. Snake mentioned that it creates a diffuse sense of reality, but maybe it also gave video and audio illusions that help Raiden cope with the mission, by showing everything is just another simulation.
the moment everything goes crazy is literally Zeros AI becoming sentient while in the simulation.
Me and my cousins were going crazy because of the end. We were all like wtf was that? I cannot believe that was 20 years ago.
I'm late to the party on this one, but I have to say this is definitely not beyond Kojima. I hail him for his amazing story building and intense plot twists.
What if both the tanker AND the plant were really done by Snake but simulated by Raiden afterwards?
In the MGS2 documentary video on the PS2 disk, Hideo Kojima stated that the tanker water eacape scene was scrapped because it was too much effort (programming) for no real bonus (in game excitement terms). And that the 'infinite ammo banada' was a reference to an old MGS cheat drom a previous game.
As far as the infinite ammo bandana being a reference to the old MGS cheat, obviously. In respect to the water escape sequence, that makes sense. The thing is, both your assertions can be true at the same time that mine could be true.
@@maxderrat that's true, both theories are a possibility. And we all know how much Hideo Kojima liked to weave complex story lines which would make the VR theory that much more believable.
Just in case you haven't seen the documentary to MGS2 here is the link:
th-cam.com/video/eJVYND_YRx8/w-d-xo.html
Hideo talks about the water scene at about 11:10. I misremembered what he said. He said the technical aspect was feasible but that it added no gameplay value. (sorry I cant do a time stamped link, I don't know how).
1 2 and 3 are all masterpieces! But I have probably played this game more than any of the others. The complex story line is amazing and I liked playing as Raiden, it gave an outside perspective of Snake.