The story of master and apprentice has been told a thousand times. The fact that the only parallel anyone sees is Luke and Yoda is pathetic. It's the SAME STORY, same archetypes. By this logic every story that isn't Shakespeare sucks.
Sauron Gaslighting: Level 100. Also, pretty sure Totally Not Gandalf will leave to help the Totally Not Hobbits and will then "pass the test" since he proved he's trying to save people instead of seeking power. He will then pull a branch off of the tree that the Matriarch Lady just spent like 5 minutes praising to be his staff.
That is so utterly predictable and formulaic that it will be exactly what happens. These writers should be working on Full House not trying to adapt Tolkien.
Well done. ...And THAT will be the end of the season arc for the Gandalf plotline. Coming up in season 3... "Gandalf continues on his quest to confront the Dark Wizard." Unfortunately I skip all Harfoot scene dialogue, so didn't catch that one.
@@JackChurchill101will they really end this season with no confrontation between gandalf and the dark wizard? Thinking about it, they probably will. In this season, they should have been separated in ep1, then gandalf meet tom B and nori and poppy the stoors, and then we should have seen the stoors as a resistance against the dark wizard of+ our heroes lead a revolt.
Elrond does mention Túrin in his comment to Frodo: “But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them.”
@@JackChurchill101 they're not allowed to use the books because they don't have a license. They have very limited sources they can rely on for legal issues.
It hurts my soul how bad it all is. Lore blasphemy, costumes, writing, acting, all of it. It looks and feels like lotr cosplaying with people that only know a little bit about Tolkien
It makes me angry and apathetic at the same time. The people making the decisions for this show don't care and are unqualified to adapt Tolkien's works. They basically could write their own story and are just poking at the lore to piss people off.
@@thomasskywalker8893You know that's not true. Peter Jackson kept at least 60% of the story and 80% of the characters remained themselves, in LotR, in the Hobbit, a lot less but. The RoP has destroyed everyone and everything.
I swear, the first thing that came to my mind during the Numenorean trial scene was the Whacking day episode of The Simpsons when Quimby goes "I'm sick of you people. You're nothing but a pack of fickle mush heads." And the crowd responds: "He's right. Give us hell, Quimby" That's how the Numenoreans feel to me, like a peasant mob and I hate it.
I just instinctively pick up my phone and start scrolling the second I see Harfoots. Edit: Also, Turin is mentioned in the Council of Elrond "and though all the mighty Elf-friends of old, Hador, and Hurin, and Turin and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat would be among them."
Sadly I pick up my phone and play my game or watch TH-cams as soon as I turn this show on, it just can't hold my attention. The penguin managed to keep my attention, but maybe because that's something new. But the writing for penguin just seems so much better, maybe it's a combination of actors, writing, directors, producers, HBO giving them x amount time compared to Amazon giving rop x amount of time, but the penguin almost from the get go it had my undivided attention
@@bryanmatthews2370 I just watched the Penguin last night and I was really enjoying it. It was pretty late and I wanted to go to sleep but I just had to finish the episode. I cant wait to see more. I think the only time I picked up my phone was the text my cousin and ask him if he's watched it yet
@@dhaub7174 pretty much the same, I was on my phone for the first minute or so through the into and the news stories. But as soon as he started banging on that wall with the hammer I put my phone down, and only picked it up to tell my friends the show was surprisingly good
Funny, as they killed off Finrod and I see where they're going. Kinda reminds me of Brian Herbert's books filling in the blanks on how all the houses and schools originates. Basically fan fiction of a lesser caliber than the original. This is much worse than that. Beren would be dead before he and Luthien could be wed, so a whole line of characters wouldn't be born including Arwen and Aragorn.
The sea is always right. And apparently so are the eagles because if one shows up at an election, you win. Is it the water they revere or the air? The writers clearly aren’t thinking this through.
The eagle was clearly there for her coronation and all it takes is some clear underline of Pharazon to convince everyone that the eagle was there somehow for him? Even though the eagle was wouldn't be there for anything but the rightful coronation
My biggest complaint is the writing of the scenes. Every scene cuts away at a point that the show runners think is dramatic, but always falls flat. They build mystery boxes out of anything just to prevent a conversation from continuing between characters. Season 1 and this season is just cut away after cut away instead of building the plot. Part of it is due to too many storylines that don’t deserve time (harfoots) and the other part is they must genuinely think it’s dramatic to cut away instead of finish a scene. It’s infuriating and prevents character building.
"My lord, a message has arrived from Eregion!!" "What does it say?" *Cut to harfoots for 10 minutes. *Return to Lindon. "So it seems our enemy is marching against us..." "We must act!" *Audience dies of boredom...
This is possibly the worst show I’ve ever seen. The treatments of elves in this show is horrendous beyond belief. They feel like 18 year olds without wisdom.
The writing is horrific. And even casual Lord of the rings fans know that elves don’t age. So to have an elf who literally looks like he’s 60 years old is just ridiculous.
@@Dilmahkana It’s not at all average. An average show is pretty good. An average movie is like Dungeons & Dragons and that’s an entertaining movie. Give me an example of a bad show if this is average? To be RoP is about the same quality as an average Julkalender show we have here in Sweden. Julkalender means Christmas calendar and our national TV do a 24x15min show for kids every Christmas.
@@moocorp4574 I'm pretty selective with my watching. But The Flash CW show s4-s9 is a trash show. It's the only show I've hate watched with a few pockets of good in there. Which Dungeons and Dragons movie btw?
Ive watched this channel for a while and liked the content and i belive you have the best intentions but honesty, you guys are just too kind. Thats not inherently a bad thing but a review isnt a review if youre trying to be as positive as possible same goes for being negative ofc, though im not trying to hate on you guys i see it more how you wanna make positive content rather than just shilling so to speak
Prior to this episode I thought that ROP had set things up in such a way to avoid Tar-Miriel being forced to wed her first cousin. Pharazon has seized the sceptre of rulership and is already being referred to as Ar-Pharazon. Then we had the Sea-trial and Miriel, Queen of the Sea. Now I foresee an incestuous royal wedding taking place after all, with Ar-Pharazon consolidating his power while Tar-Miriel is attempting to avoid a tragic civil war. Goodbye Tar-Miriel. Hello Ar-Zimraphel.
The people making the decisions are unqualified to adapt Tolkien's lore and aren't even trying anyway. They can make their own script but still poke at the established book lore to piss off real fans.
Well, even we have seen bats but they can still be scary if they got straight at you, but No; what the dwarves were actually scared of BatDisa and her awesome limitless power
@@bolggamer when he grabbed celebrimbor as he was leaving the tower he used that hand. That’s how he hypnotized him. Am I the only one watching every detail? lol I guess ocd helps.
@@pinkace That would make sense too. The real answer is we just don't know because there hasn't been any clarification. And yes, I watched it once for "entertainment" and haven't seen it since. I'm not watching every detail.
Turin is directly mentioned in the Council of Elrond. This show is just frustrating. I’m sorry but the actress for Galadriel is awful. She and Miriel are arguably the worst actors in the series. Characters magically know things that they would never know. The dwarf stoyline would have been much more effective if it weren’t for the fact that EVERY SCENE between the two Durins for the past two seasons has them either fighting or reconciling. Them fighting is simply the status quo. Having Tom be so involved in the story and as a mentor is so lore immaculate. And what’s more the quote about “there are those who live that deserve death, and those who die that deserve live” is one of the most fundamental misunderstandings to what the original line is. Gandalf said that as a means of highlighting pity and mercy. Here it is used as a means of justifying not saving someone. The Numenor storyline is hurt greatly by the fact that it is less about the soul of Numenor and more of a political struggle. There are good moments like you have said. Annatar is solid when his manipulation isn’t from a high school girl’s playbook. The acting is solid in many places. There are hints at decent ideas, but overall it is a mess. I think it’s silly that people called you two shills. That said, I genuinely would like to know what you think are examples of phenomenal television are? You say that this show is on the cusp of a 9/10 or 10/10 but I just don’t see it. When I think of those levels I think of Better Call Saul, Breaking Bad, the Wire, the Sopranos, Avatar the Last Airbender. Those shows reach these heights of quality, and while this show has moments that are good I don’t see how it reaches anywhere close to those greats I mentioned. If you enjoy it and think it can reach that quality from what we’ve seen then I’m glad you’re enjoying it! That said even with things cut I don’t see the show getting much higher than a 7.5/10
@@MenoftheWest cool! Didn’t mean that as a gotcha. Just thought I’d let you know. That and I was slightly bummed that he didn’t get a name drop, though some of the dodgy parts of his past is most likely why he was passed up.
Weirdly everyone complains about the writing and you have writers from shows you mentioned above , the fault is from the direction mainly even if the dialogue should be way better given what they have in the writers room
I think that Yoystan and Rion were theorizing that if the show material was rearranged, shortened, and key additional scenes added, it could be possible to rebuild it into something deserving 9/10. They are not saying the show is anywhere near that rating in its current form.
@@root13pie I do realize that , but what I’m saying is that fundamentally the show is poorly written. Even with a major edit I don’t know how the show can make it past a 7.5/10. So much of it is flawed that even condensed and moved around it is still mostly nonsensical and poorly written.
It's confusing how you start out by saying the show is improving and so much better than season 1 and then go on a 45 minute rant to close out the podcast. 🤷♂ Your hearts are clearly much more generous than mine.
I actually liked season 1 and it made me excited about the potential of the series. Now, each episode of season 2 makes me like the show less and less. It's come to the point, already, that I hope a future studio will remake a story of the second age.
No it wasn't. I know you guys are decent folks and don't want to lead with negativity...but episode 5 was not good as an adaptation of Tolkien nor as an episode of a tv show...that being said I still prefer to listen to you guys over a lot of review channels who spew hatred from their rabid entitlement and anti-woke crusade. The show has a lot of problems but it's still better than Halo.
Celebrimbor's development makes no sense. He didn't want to make Rings for Men, then found out the 7 are messed up, then apparently believes Annatar's words that this is caused by his lies, but then he DOESN'T correct his lies and just decides he'll make more rings? He didn't fix what went wrong with the first ones, or if he doesn't believe it's the lies then he needs to find out what caused the problems. He has nothing to go on here anyway. The entire story of the ring creation is nonsensical here, and as a consequence the character is nonsensical either. Also the Stranger searching for his name? That makes no sense because we see especially in the example of Nobody that names don't need to be found somewhere, but that they are given by others or that you give yourself. The search for a name is utterly meaningless.
Watch that episode again. Annatar told him there is NO WAY to fix the seven, they were corrupted by his lies, however Celebrimbor can BALANCE the damage caused by the corruption of the seven by making the Nine. It's all perfectly logical and sensible all you need to do is pay attention 🙂
So by making more rings and still not telling the king that fixes it? Making MORE rings under a cloud of deceit? He still hasnt told the high king about the rings
@@HauntingIrishStories well you put it very bluntly, but YES. The lie was already told. Coming clean doesn’t make it all OK. He lied to his king. But he can balance that sin by another good deed: save mankind.
@@pinkacesorry but thats exactly the problem with the writing, it’s inconsistent and basically whatever the writers want to happen will happen. The logic doesnt stand up for any character. This show is a Frankensteins monster of writers and directors so its no wonder the show is all over the place. Anyone with a brain in Celebrimbors place would not have made more and hes a wise elf so the showrunners just made him look like a gobshite
I really dont understand how people can find the scenes between Celebrimbor and Annatar compelling or tense in any way. The whole thing is just so rushed and lacks any credibility. For example, if Annatar had presented himself in Eregion in episode 1 of season 1, and they were shown to spend the next two seasons working and making rings together over the course of years, and building a relationship with each other, and then, say some time in season 2 or 3, Annatar starts to manilpulate Celebrimbor and then a strained relationship between them would be far more believable and would hold my attention. But as it stands in the RoP timeline, Annatar has been in Eregion for what, a couple of weeks?? And already he is affecting Celebrimbor to the point where he is about to have a mental breakdown?! The story and characters haven't been given any time to mature and the worst part about it is that it makes Celebrimbor out to be a weak, insecure, dothery old fool. So i get what you guys are saying when you say that an individual episode can be "good", but if the preceeding episodes havent given me any reason to care about the chracters involved and made the story interesting, then its still going to be "good comapred to what i was expecting but the whole thing still sucks"
You mean, if they had started the story at the start of the story, rather than create nine hours of prologue fan-fiction before starting the actual story, it would have been better???
Right? It is pure cope for people to find the Celebrimbor scenes compelling. Literally it is just Celebrimbor acting like a complete moron over and over again. Also the fact that the PROTAGONIST OF THE SHOW literally knew that HALBRAND WAS SAURON and her LYING TO ALL THE ELVES ABOUT THIS is why this stupid Annatar stuff is even happening. Like the only way Annatar Sauron tricks anyone is for all the elves to be complete idiots, including Galadriel taking Sauron's side effectively by lying to the other elves. It is all just so incredibly stupid.
@@Broomtwo This is why the reveal of Sauron in Season 1 fucked everything up. It makes no sense for Galadriel and Elrond to just not tell Celebrimbor right away. Instead Elrond steals the rings off-screen and Galadriel chases him, all so they can avoid telling Celebrimbor so he can be manipulated later. Even if he didn't know Halbrand was Sauron he could have at least told Celebrimbor. And warn him that the rings are potentially dangerous, but not even bloody Elrond said anything to Celebrimbor. In the books, they didn't know it was Sauron until he put on the One. If they had stuck to the lore a bit more at least it would have made sense. This could have worked if they forged the 7 and the 9 in Season 1, and in Season 2 this was about forging the three to counterbalance the 7 and the 9, with the end result being the sack of Eregion. But they insisted on forging the 3 first, requiring "Halbrand" to come back in Season 2. Celebrimbor could have even given the "greatest of the 7" and just that one ring to Durin III (which is in the books) in exchange for more mythril (which was not in the books--the elves and dwarves had a better relationship in the books and Mythril was used far more commonly). It was the only ring gave directly by the elves to a non-elf.
I tried to give this show a chance, but this episode broke the camels back for me, I can no longer watch this show. I do not care about a single character because everything is written and designed so badly. There is too much wrong with the show, the sense of scale of the world - I feel like I see the same 3 background elves in every scene, the writing, everything is just so awful and frankly boring.
What's the bet they're making the rings in that order in the show because that's the random order Galadriel lists them in at the start of the film trilogy though
The Ring Verse that Sauron speaks in the books lists them in this same order: Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. Not saying they should be made in that order in ROP, but at least this order is used in the books and not just mentioned in the movie trilogy prologue.
Even with a “things done right” list I fear there is nothing that can save this series and make it into an actual Tolkien adaptation. Perhaps a supercut of the best bits can be put together to make a great fantasy story?!? But I honestly cannot see this show being salvaged as the Second Age story of Middle Earth with the trajectory they’re currently on 🤷🏻♀️ Cheers!
It is tiring watching some of characters doing something and thinking “they can do that” without proper setup. All it would take is one scene of Disa having some kind of relationship with the bats before having her summoning them. No context to a lot of abilities that a lot of these characters have.
My fear is after the battle of Eregion, the finale is going to spend too much time on the Harfoots/Stoors, Not-Gandalf, discount Tom Bombadil and the femininen with the other dark wizard. Then a couple of weeks later the showrunners will come out and say season 3 will be heavily adapted from the lore. So predictable.
I thought it was quite obvious that they put in the sea snake trial to set up Sauron for when he comes to Numenor. He obviously gets captured and is probably put on trial when he gets there. And as we saw in episode 1, Sauron can control the sea serpent. So he will survive the trial at which point the Numenorians will start to get corrupted by him.
It only makes Sauron's corruption of them less interesting. He slowly corrupts them WHILE THEY KNOW HE'S EVIL. Handling it the way the books did it shows him to be far more of an actual threat then just have a stupid trial by some ridiculous sea serpent that comes out of nowhere.
When the elves, who can see further than any of the races of middle earth, couldn’t see the coming orc attack until it was right on top of them, I actually laughed! This was right after Anatar showed Galadriel the miles and miles of orcs carrying torches. Plus, did no one hear the noise or notice the felling of trees when they built all the siege engines? Do the writers actually think armies transported those things thousands of miles? So stupid!!
@@bekkison yeah, they didnt even try to make a justification of it. Even a stupid one would've been more believable (Sauron used a spell to cover the passage of the army, or tricking the scouts of Eregion to withdraw, anything!!!!!). The forces of evil simply pass through the lands of Eregion, Lindon, like they are going for a walk.
Pair it with Phil Dragash audio book who brings the characters & songs to life. Some didn't even know he was the one doing all the voices. Spotify playlist.
They are open to this possibility because people have done this with other poor shows and improved them. For example, they mentioned the Hobbit movies supercut, and there are also the Patterson cuts of Kenobi and Ahsoka.
@@root13pieI’d say with the Hobbit that the bass that is being worked on is nowhere near as corrupt or bad as Rings of Power. Most of that trilogies problem comes from bloat and unnecessary time given to characters who do not add to the films. Here at its core it’s a mess.
I think its because they dont care that it is simplistic and bad, the action is still fun for them, which i just cant sympathize with. Everything they like is contrived drama but they dont seem to care how contrived it is
IIRC Black Speech is not a form of Elvish so there is no reason for the average elf especially in the second age to understand it. Black speech is an artificial constructed language with a different system and structure to elvish. The ring poem in black speech is rendered into elvish script but is not actually an Elvish dialect.
I hated seeing the elves running around mindlessly, falling over and shoving each other. And the desecration of the Gandalf line. On Sauron's magic: I think he already has the One. Like, the whole season. My reading of the trial scene was that he was accused of inciting violence, and he copped to it because he did lash out at Kemen after Miriel told him not to. So he was disobeying her orders and probably felt genuinely contrite, especially given that the violence escalated to Valandil's death. And would Galadriel gnashing her teeth over the lives of elves have had any impact on Adar? I don't think protecting Eregion was necessarily secondary in her concerns--I just think there would be no use pleading with Adar on any account other than his playing into Sauron's hand. At 46:55, "Suddenly, Sauron" to the tune of "Suddenly, Seymour" popped into my head. 😂
I theorized that Sauron made the One Ring between seasons. The end of Season 1 shows him at Mount Doom, then he's suddenly with Adar? Why? It makes more sense that he forged the ring before ever even going to Adar, which is why he was at Mount Doom. Lore wise the attack on Eregion did happen after he forged the One. Not that this show follows the lore very well...
@@jrconway3 Yeah, I think he might have used the Southlands sigil--it looks like it could have been tarnished gold. It just seems that he got a massive power upgrade, and there are hints he's doing even more than we know for certain (starting a storm, rocking Cirdan's boat, etc.). That might even have been where he was during the Mount Doom eruption, although that would be improbably quick thinking on his part, and it would make more sense if he worked with Celebrimbor first. Anyway, it looked like Pharazon saw the forging in the palantir, and it was connected with the image of Halbrand going into Mordor at the end of last season.
Basically from what I read about the rights situation: they have access to the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and Appendices. Plus specific case by case examples from other things, for example the name Annatar. Morgoth destroying the Two Trees and stealing the Silmarils is mentioned in the LOTR, they can depict that. Ungoliant is mentioned in LOTR, she is mentioned to be the parent of Shelob. Therefore they can show a big spider names Ungoliant. Ungoliant’s role in destroying the two trees is not mentioned, they can’t show that. Also Turin is mentioned in LOTR, though just his name and that he’s an elf friend so not much for them to use there
To be more specific: They have The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings books. That includes the Appendices because the Appendices are at the end of "The Lord of the Rings" meaning they're in the Return of the King book, after the story is concluded. However, they must have more than just those rights to a limited extent. Miriel is not mentioned in the Appendices from what I can tell. And I don't think Annatar is either.
Re: music - Guys, I think the main reason music is underwhelming is that Lord of the Rings films literally used the score to convey themes or storybeats with said music and it's obvious relationship to cinematography. This series does not do that. It tries to convey its story solely through it's writing... and it's writing is incredibly poor and illogical. So not only is the music not a core component used to tell the story (as any fantastic film/series does), it is now secondary in the product, and it's main purpose is to try and support awful writing. This problem is DEFINITELY NOT limited to just the music in ROP lol as it's fucking awful.
It’s not the story or stories I wanted when this show was announced. Yes, there’s source materiel they don’t have access to but if that means you can’t do a faithful retelling of the histories the author created, then just don’t bother. This can be good fan fiction or bad fan fiction and if you want to watch that, absolutely fine, but for myself, I’m simply not interested in such a wildly unfaithful adaptation of what I’ve seen waiting decades to see on screen. And that doesn’t change regardless of how much money you throw at it. Amazon can work their butts off to iron out the things people aren’t liking in this, but it’ll still be the same story that’s set in motion now. This simply way the way the rings were created exactly as carefully described to us on the page, and much of this stuff did not happen or did not happen at the same time. Yes, the huge scale of time makes it impossible to create a tight story but that’s tough for me: the depth of history - the span of thousands and thousands of years - is one of the fundamental things which makes these stories (that are being mixed up and fucked up here) feel so powerful on the page. If you couldn’t make the adaptation of the stories in the Silmarillion for one reason or another, then don’t. 🤷🏻♂️ You would have been showing the author’s work you claim to love a greater level of respect.
The sea monster makes no sense considering Sauron's dark influence on the Numenoreans included introducing human sacrifice. Not much of an introduction if they already sacrifice people.
I find it frustrating. Some bits are genuinely good, I like many of the dwarf scenes and I like Anatar and his gradual breaking of Celebrimbor’s mind. But then the political drama is so weak and most of the story telling is weak. I like to imagine what could have been with this budget, the best bits kept but script and story telling of a show like Game of Thrones. Every week I watch Rings of Power and end up playing on my phone but that never happens with a good show.
As I was watching this episode, I was appalled at how bad it was at several points. Two words come to mind: peak stupidity. Everything having to do with Tom and not-Gandalf, the harfoots, and even some of the stupid inconsistencies with Galadriel’s plotline were just too much for me. Not to mention the completely laughable thing about the bats and Disa. It really undid anything good in my mind from the previous episode. I really hope that moving forward episode 5 wasn’t just a fluke, but I’m afraid it will turn out to be that way. Not that it was fantastic, but it was the best that we’ve gotten, at least.
I was so frustrated about the whole Trial by Sea thing. Just like that useless Eagle coming to perch on a balcony for no apparent reason. Okay, let's assume Ye Olde Númenoreans had this tradition. The counselor specifically mentions that it's Valar who deal swift judgement using Sea-Wurm. Why would Ar-Pharazôn want to defer to Valar? Did he forget whom Faithful are faithful to? And why Elendil and Tar-Miriel were so afraid of that trial, aren't they Faithful enough?
The writers do not have the skill to move the plot along in a coherent way, so that is why they just shoe-horn in contrived creatures to tell the Númenoreans what to think.
@@Broomtwo but why these writers cannot make sense of what these creatures represent, and how they relate to Númenorean beliefs? That's what bugs me the most
I had always thought the whole the sea is always right thing was like. A relatively recent cultural thing supposed to contrast the faithful with the current state of numenor. Like even though the sailors were saying it. It was more if a recent propaganda thing attributing power to something that wasn't the gods. And if you can control the sea you can control power. So elendil says that even though the sea killed his wife. He doesn't believe in it, but he has to go along with it for now. He doesn't believe in the direction numenor is going, and his arc would be leaving the attitude of the sea being right behind with the faithful. But then I guess the sea will be right in the end. Or maybe he realizes it's not the sea that's right it's like.. Actually the valar who sometimes use the sea as a tool. And it seems like the sea being right is a pretty entrenched cultural belief. So it would maybe go back to the time when numenor was more faithful. I really don't know. I had been giving them the benefit of the doubt before. But at this point yeah. I think someone in the writers room just thought it sounded cool.
I'm genuinely liking the Sauron and Celebrimbor scenes. Charlie Vickers and Charles Edwards are very good. On the opposite end, I think the Stranger/Harfoots stuff should just be cut from the show entirely. Those scenes do absolutely nothing for me, and this episode in particular really irritated me with using Gandalf's line from Fellowship.
They could've waited before doing this plotline for an anthology season. Keep the plot the same if you want but have the events of the Elves, Sauron, Mordor stuff effect their world more or at least bumping into characters like Arondir or seeing armies marching etc. It would still be bad but it might be better, more interesting and wouldn't impact the other storylines as much.
Elrond mentions "Hurin and Turin, And Beren Himself" at the council as the greatest of elf friends from the elder days. Little bits like that are why there's more than enough material for a good show.
Y'all take bout how the Hobbit plotline is so far below the others, it drops the score - I think it is worse. It butchers and sabotages the other plotlines by ruining the pacing and stretching everything else too thin. Numenor being rushed is a direct result of this
It’s a bait and switch. They don’t wanna be called toxic they’re terrified of the crazy positivity addicts they are over praising to seem fair. Makes them sound pretty silly.
I agree with a lot of what you guys say in your RoP reviews, but I just can't take Arondir seriously. He's trying way too hard; every kill is nauseatingly over-dramatized and set up with unnecessary and unrealistic gymnastics, and then followed by some "serious pose" like he's taking a selfie for social media. Knowing he's in the show just to check the 'black elf' box is already infuriating, but at least they could have written his fighting less tropey.
"Arondier is the only elf in this show". Well he's the only one who looks like he could fight and in fact they show him fighting. But it's still not a Tolkien Elf, it's a Lord of the Rings elf. The problem is that the scene that he is in. Once again you were dropped into an opening where you have no idea where you are or what the character is doing or what his goals are or where he is even been. And you spend 3 minutes and you are out and you have really no substantial idea why you just watch that scene. And this is kind of like most of this series. Often times you have no idea what's going on and that is used for suspense. And it's just cheap suspense.
The glaring thing you guys said is if this show didn't have the LOTR attached to it you wouldn't even bother watching it lol that tells me everything I need to know about how bad of a show this is lol this show is pointless conversations with pointless storylines and pointless characters that nobody likes or cares about I just wish Amazon would of hired Petter Jackson to make this show. God it would've been a true Tolkien experience
I don't think the show is very good but not nearly as bad as other commenters seem to think. Yes, I groan through some scenes/dialogue occasionally and overall it's an uneven experience. It's just not P.O.S. territory for me. Clearly, the liberties it takes with the lore irreperably damages it in the eyes of some, which is fair. No one wants to see LOTR become an IP buffet. I'll stand by the season itself being all right, although frustrating, unless it sinks further
Lol @ bathroom breaks 😅 I too group “Gandalf” and the “hobbits” together. Like, whatever is going on in the desert, I’m not that interested. I would rank Arondir as the show’s top highlight, then dwarves, then Adar as a character (his storyline is kind of weird) Eilendil, then elves. 😊
The only way to make a workable supercut is to turn it into a silent movie. Replace the audio with text boards like the silent movies did in the 1920s. Rewrite the scripts to match Tolkien's writings. Perhaps desaturate the film to a degree? 😊❤❤❤😊
I agree. The harfoots serve no purpose. The wizard, who I will never acknowledge as Gandalf because it doesn't make any sense, can go on his own path. I think these last two episodes have been great except for the harfoots.
The prison scene was straight out of GoT Ned Stark until it wasn't. Didn't hit the mark in the same way, and then the very sudden love story.. dunno. Edit: Good to have you back guys
About how Sauron will manage to leave Eregion, we now know in this show of one ring that can make the user invisible and see the unseen world. He'll probably take this ring, put it on, walk to Mordor while being invisible, and modify the ring there.
I haven't watched the show at all, despite being a huge Tolkien fan, but I always tune into these reviews. Despite the destruction of the lore, the thing that really takes me out of this show is the costume designs. They are honestly terrible, especially when they are held up against PJ's representations.
I don't know if you read these comments but you were asking how Arondil is going to tie into the last episode: He's showing up with the ents and Isildur at the last moment. That map he got from the orc might be the only clue the show gives before they show up.
When you say you like annatar and how he's tall and all that, I saw that Charlie Vickers said he wears ankle weights when he's acting as sauron to make him move slower/have a heavier feel to it
It doesn't matter what's kinda good in this show because the bad!! And omg the bad over takes anything good like let's be real this show is Garbage plan and simple
As a deep tolkein fan myself i do understand the frustration, but i cannot understand the vitriol. The show is its own adaptation of the story and its not what i would have done, but i will still watch it without the absolute hatred people seem to have. Harfoots are boring. Tom and Stranger is boring and issues with changes to the lore. However the Sauron stuff i dont take any issue with, the way they are playing it out doesnt feel like a massive strech from canon. Lastly the portrayal of orcs and are they all evil....well tolkein himself did write something along the lines of that in their deepest of hearts they loathe Sauron and are sort of enslaved by Morgoth and Sauron. There are issues with the lore, i myself question whether they know certain stories of the first age, like the Morgoth's crown, and do have feelings on it.....but it isnt hatred. Seems hatred is par for the course with mordern fanbases and vitriol is the norm for commenta and reviews.
Except it's no more an adaptation of Tolkien's story than the 1990s Super Mario Bros movie is an adaptation of the Nintendo game. It's like trying to adapt Red Dead Redemption and making it about trolls in space. Pointing out how poorly the show does its job of adapting Tolkien's world and stories isn't mere hatred - that's just your dismissal of people's feelings when we're stating facts. Maybe you should stop reading emotion into what people are saying and pay attention to what they actually say. Or, as has been pointed out by others, when people care about something, they're going to be angry at those who mess it up; that's the fault of those who mess it up, not on those who are angry about it. As for the Orcs, so what if they hated their bosses? That doesn't make them less evil. Case in point: Shagrat and Gorbag. Their conversations sound like two disgruntled soldiers griping about their jobs and wishing for a better life. Fine and dandy. But then, as soon as they get Frodo back to the tower and start looting his equipment, they turn on each other and command their soldiers to slaughter each other. That's the nature of Orcs: they're still greedy and selfish at heart. In fact, that's the reason it takes powerful masters like the Nazgul, Saruman, or Sauron himself to keep them in line and working together; without some authoritative presence, they just degenerate into selfish b4574rds.
Celebrimbor is barely a character at this point, or is an evil, prideful moron. Saurons manipulations are hilariously dumb “nobody mind the dead elf with writing carved into his chest alls good here” 😂 Arondir murdering helpless orc deserters who just wanted to go home to their living families. Why is he so evil?
@@Didymus20X6 was never disputing that, it's just the level of anger is unnecessary. We still have our books! They're not going anywhere. It's just an adaptation that I do have my issues with sure just don't confront those issues with pointless anger. Its not that im blind to what people are saying. Im a bit fed of modern fan bases just becoming overbearingly toxic over what at the end of the day is an adaptation. So it isn't for you, don't watch it then, but to try and bring it down and not just let people enjoy it for what it is. A half baked adaptation that is half arsed with keeping to the books. Won't stop me enjoying good acting (there is a fair bit of it), the excellent visuals. Just seems people get caught up on the lore and whether it is faithful or close enough in their opinion. There are massive aggregious issues with the show, the Elves, the strangers story. To be clear here, I am a lore guy for multiple franchises, I'm austic, it pleases me. So what's happening here is something I've seen in GoT, Star Wars, Star Trek. I would ask if you feel Peter Jackson's triologies are also unfaithful adaptations? Was Azog a lore problem, yes...was his portrayal, character and story written for him reasonable, also yes. A few times these reviews have genuinely made mistakes of thinking something was said or done that isn't actually what happened in the episode, mostly because they are put off by the issues and not focusing, it is bias at this point. Rant about the "Nameless things" being used twice in an episode, when it's been said once that episode and the other was a "Dark, ancient and powerful" but no these guys are beating on about a line being overused that was used once this season! It's stuff like this that is nonsensical and just pointless anger and I wish to make people question the levels of crap they throw at the show. Let's be fair, the writing is still far better than the likes of The Acolyte and The Rise of Skywalker. I mean to put simply, Tolkien fans seem to be getting as bad as the general Star Wars fan base and that is not a good standard to hold. Going back to the orcs I was never saying they can be redeemed. Just that the show seems to be taking the route of that they are enslaved under Sauron in the end which would be fitting. I would imagine orcs would create their own society if left to it, even if that existence is that of violence and ruin.
I have an unrelated question. For a moment it looked like Aragon might not marry Arwin. Who else would he have married? He would be responsible to carry on his line, but if not with Arwin, then who?
I'm still convinced that this series is intended to represent the discord in the song of creation caused by morgoth
😆
Actually I would rather hear Melkor's discord in the song than watch this crappy series any further, yikes!
Top comment
money laundering scheme. has to be
That’s what ever story in lord of the rings is tho….
Next episode Gandalf will go to Cloud City to rescue Han and Leia.
My boy Calrizion's got that covered
That would maybe be a better direction instead of wherever they’re going
You mean Skystranger the young Jestar.
You don't seek to master the Secret Force, it leads to the Dark Lord side, you must listen to it!
The story of master and apprentice has been told a thousand times. The fact that the only parallel anyone sees is Luke and Yoda is pathetic. It's the SAME STORY, same archetypes. By this logic every story that isn't Shakespeare sucks.
Sauron Gaslighting: Level 100.
Also, pretty sure Totally Not Gandalf will leave to help the Totally Not Hobbits and will then "pass the test" since he proved he's trying to save people instead of seeking power. He will then pull a branch off of the tree that the Matriarch Lady just spent like 5 minutes praising to be his staff.
That is exactly what is going to happen.
That is so utterly predictable and formulaic that it will be exactly what happens. These writers should be working on Full House not trying to adapt Tolkien.
Well done.
...And THAT will be the end of the season arc for the Gandalf plotline. Coming up in season 3... "Gandalf continues on his quest to confront the Dark Wizard."
Unfortunately I skip all Harfoot scene dialogue, so didn't catch that one.
@@JackChurchill101will they really end this season with no confrontation between gandalf and the dark wizard? Thinking about it, they probably will.
In this season, they should have been separated in ep1, then gandalf meet tom B and nori and poppy the stoors, and then we should have seen the stoors as a resistance against the dark wizard of+ our heroes lead a revolt.
Can’t wait for Gandalf and Tom to find all the horcruxes and destroy the dark wizard… gonna be legendary. 🤌🏼
Elrond does mention Túrin in his comment to Frodo:
“But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right; and though all the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them.”
...writers haven't read the books since college. Which is why they can't remember any of the details.
@@JackChurchill101 they're not allowed to use the books because they don't have a license. They have very limited sources they can rely on for legal issues.
It hurts my soul how bad it all is. Lore blasphemy, costumes, writing, acting, all of it. It looks and feels like lotr cosplaying with people that only know a little bit about Tolkien
It makes me angry and apathetic at the same time. The people making the decisions for this show don't care and are unqualified to adapt Tolkien's works. They basically could write their own story and are just poking at the lore to piss people off.
I like it! Pretty much every story line… and it is lore breaking…. But about as much as the Peter Jackson movies!
I hate that people who hate it still gives it attention. I wish everyone would just ignore it. I've never watched a single episode
@@thomasskywalker8893You know that's not true. Peter Jackson kept at least 60% of the story and 80% of the characters remained themselves, in LotR, in the Hobbit, a lot less but.
The RoP has destroyed everyone and everything.
Tbf the Acting for the most part (except the Harfoots) is pretty good.
I swear, the first thing that came to my mind during the Numenorean trial scene was the Whacking day episode of The Simpsons when Quimby goes "I'm sick of you people. You're nothing but a pack of fickle mush heads." And the crowd responds: "He's right. Give us hell, Quimby"
That's how the Numenoreans feel to me, like a peasant mob and I hate it.
I just instinctively pick up my phone and start scrolling the second I see Harfoots.
Edit: Also, Turin is mentioned in the Council of Elrond
"and though all the mighty Elf-friends of old, Hador, and Hurin, and Turin and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat would be among them."
Sadly I pick up my phone and play my game or watch TH-cams as soon as I turn this show on, it just can't hold my attention. The penguin managed to keep my attention, but maybe because that's something new. But the writing for penguin just seems so much better, maybe it's a combination of actors, writing, directors, producers, HBO giving them x amount time compared to Amazon giving rop x amount of time, but the penguin almost from the get go it had my undivided attention
@@bryanmatthews2370 I just watched the Penguin last night and I was really enjoying it. It was pretty late and I wanted to go to sleep but I just had to finish the episode. I cant wait to see more. I think the only time I picked up my phone was the text my cousin and ask him if he's watched it yet
@@dhaub7174 pretty much the same, I was on my phone for the first minute or so through the into and the news stories. But as soon as he started banging on that wall with the hammer I put my phone down, and only picked it up to tell my friends the show was surprisingly good
Funny, as they killed off Finrod and
I see where they're going. Kinda reminds me of Brian Herbert's books filling in the blanks on how all the houses and schools originates. Basically fan fiction of a lesser caliber than the original. This is much worse than that.
Beren would be dead before he and Luthien could be wed, so a whole line of characters wouldn't be born including Arwen and Aragorn.
The sea is always right. And apparently so are the eagles because if one shows up at an election, you win. Is it the water they revere or the air?
The writers clearly aren’t thinking this through.
The show writers are never right!
They never read silmarillion to understand the Valar and their views and influence over middle earth.
The eagle came for Miriel but Al Pharazon seized the moment like a boss.
@@brain9h they're not allowed to use the silmarillion. No license.
The eagle was clearly there for her coronation and all it takes is some clear underline of Pharazon to convince everyone that the eagle was there somehow for him? Even though the eagle was wouldn't be there for anything but the rightful coronation
My biggest complaint is the writing of the scenes. Every scene cuts away at a point that the show runners think is dramatic, but always falls flat. They build mystery boxes out of anything just to prevent a conversation from continuing between characters. Season 1 and this season is just cut away after cut away instead of building the plot. Part of it is due to too many storylines that don’t deserve time (harfoots) and the other part is they must genuinely think it’s dramatic to cut away instead of finish a scene. It’s infuriating and prevents character building.
"My lord, a message has arrived from Eregion!!"
"What does it say?"
*Cut to harfoots for 10 minutes.
*Return to Lindon.
"So it seems our enemy is marching against us..."
"We must act!"
*Audience dies of boredom...
It's called commercial breaks. Prime has different packages.
Absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien.
Lol didn’t watch, don’t plan to!
This is possibly the worst show I’ve ever seen. The treatments of elves in this show is horrendous beyond belief. They feel like 18 year olds without wisdom.
It's objectively average. Just because we care about Tolkien much more than other fictions it doesn't mean the show is worse than genuinely bad shows
I totally agree. This show mangles Tolkien's lore and the elves in particular.
The writing is horrific. And even casual Lord of the rings fans know that elves don’t age. So to have an elf who literally looks like he’s 60 years old is just ridiculous.
@@Dilmahkana It’s not at all average. An average show is pretty good. An average movie is like Dungeons & Dragons and that’s an entertaining movie. Give me an example of a bad show if this is average?
To be RoP is about the same quality as an average Julkalender show we have here in Sweden. Julkalender means Christmas calendar and our national TV do a 24x15min show for kids every Christmas.
@@moocorp4574 I'm pretty selective with my watching. But The Flash CW show s4-s9 is a trash show. It's the only show I've hate watched with a few pockets of good in there.
Which Dungeons and Dragons movie btw?
Ive watched this channel for a while and liked the content and i belive you have the best intentions but honesty, you guys are just too kind. Thats not inherently a bad thing but a review isnt a review if youre trying to be as positive as possible same goes for being negative ofc, though im not trying to hate on you guys i see it more how you wanna make positive content rather than just shilling so to speak
Prior to this episode I thought that ROP had set things up in such a way to avoid Tar-Miriel being forced to wed her first cousin. Pharazon has seized the sceptre of rulership and is already being referred to as Ar-Pharazon. Then we had the Sea-trial and Miriel, Queen of the Sea. Now I foresee an incestuous royal wedding taking place after all, with Ar-Pharazon consolidating his power while Tar-Miriel is attempting to avoid a tragic civil war. Goodbye Tar-Miriel. Hello Ar-Zimraphel.
My shill-o-meter is going crazy
I know have they gotten a sponsorship?
I don't know how you can enjoy an episode when it's messing up lore and characters so badly. Everything about this show existing makes me mad.
The people making the decisions are unqualified to adapt Tolkien's lore and aren't even trying anyway. They can make their own script but still poke at the established book lore to piss off real fans.
I agree on the whole but you can have some good scenes. Sad we had to get this far into the show for one or two really good scenes
@@richardwallis9374there are no good scenes lol
You obviously mustn’t be a fan of the Peter Jackson movies either right because they change so much from the books 😂😂😂
You obviously mustn’t be a fan of the Peter Jackson movies either right because they change so much from the books 😂😂😂
So dwarves never encountered bats while mining before?
Pretty bad idea. I would had thought she would had sung a cave in instead.
These dwarves are bread for one purpose of being sissy dwarves.
Well, even we have seen bats but they can still be scary if they got straight at you, but No; what the dwarves were actually scared of BatDisa and her awesome limitless power
That scene is possibly the most cringe thing I've ever seen in a show.
If my memory serves me correctly, Tolkien used bats as servants of evil.
47:16 Sauron cut himself during the episode and I think the Mithril was actually his blood, just leaning into the corruption theme.
That would be so bizarre if that’s the case. Given that they made it seem like mirhril is essential in the process.
he stole it from Khazad dum. He can hypnotize Celebrimbor, you don't think he can hypnotize a few dwarves?
@@pinkace I'm not so sure. Why would he have cut his hand if not for a plot point. I think the Mithril is just blood transmuted by magic.
@@bolggamer when he grabbed celebrimbor as he was leaving the tower he used that hand. That’s how he hypnotized him. Am I the only one watching every detail? lol I guess ocd helps.
@@pinkace That would make sense too. The real answer is we just don't know because there hasn't been any clarification. And yes, I watched it once for "entertainment" and haven't seen it since. I'm not watching every detail.
Turin is directly mentioned in the Council of Elrond.
This show is just frustrating. I’m sorry but the actress for Galadriel is awful. She and Miriel are arguably the worst actors in the series.
Characters magically know things that they would never know.
The dwarf stoyline would have been much more effective if it weren’t for the fact that EVERY SCENE between the two Durins for the past two seasons has them either fighting or reconciling. Them fighting is simply the status quo.
Having Tom be so involved in the story and as a mentor is so lore immaculate. And what’s more the quote about “there are those who live that deserve death, and those who die that deserve live” is one of the most fundamental misunderstandings to what the original line is. Gandalf said that as a means of highlighting pity and mercy. Here it is used as a means of justifying not saving someone.
The Numenor storyline is hurt greatly by the fact that it is less about the soul of Numenor and more of a political struggle.
There are good moments like you have said. Annatar is solid when his manipulation isn’t from a high school girl’s playbook. The acting is solid in many places. There are hints at decent ideas, but overall it is a mess.
I think it’s silly that people called you two shills. That said, I genuinely would like to know what you think are examples of phenomenal television are? You say that this show is on the cusp of a 9/10 or 10/10 but I just don’t see it. When I think of those levels I think of Better Call Saul, Breaking Bad, the Wire, the Sopranos, Avatar the Last Airbender. Those shows reach these heights of quality, and while this show has moments that are good I don’t see how it reaches anywhere close to those greats I mentioned. If you enjoy it and think it can reach that quality from what we’ve seen then I’m glad you’re enjoying it! That said even with things cut I don’t see the show getting much higher than a 7.5/10
I thought so too! But I did a ctrl+f on a LOTR pdf to see if he was mentioned, and I don't believe he was. I appreciate your comments here!
@@MenoftheWest cool! Didn’t mean that as a gotcha. Just thought I’d let you know. That and I was slightly bummed that he didn’t get a name drop, though some of the dodgy parts of his past is most likely why he was passed up.
Weirdly everyone complains about the writing and you have writers from shows you mentioned above , the fault is from the direction mainly even if the dialogue should be way better given what they have in the writers room
I think that Yoystan and Rion were theorizing that if the show material was rearranged, shortened, and key additional scenes added, it could be possible to rebuild it into something deserving 9/10. They are not saying the show is anywhere near that rating in its current form.
@@root13pie I do realize that , but what I’m saying is that fundamentally the show is poorly written. Even with a major edit I don’t know how the show can make it past a 7.5/10. So much of it is flawed that even condensed and moved around it is still mostly nonsensical and poorly written.
pretty sure RoP is an experiment on the public with writing using AI tools. to see reactions and refine their programs.
It's confusing how you start out by saying the show is improving and so much better than season 1 and then go on a 45 minute rant to close out the podcast. 🤷♂ Your hearts are clearly much more generous than mine.
No, all this makes sense - it's been a season of contradictions.
Their compliments for this show are as contrived as the show itself!
No. It’s because season 1 was just THAT BAD. Lol.
I actually liked season 1 and it made me excited about the potential of the series. Now, each episode of season 2 makes me like the show less and less. It's come to the point, already, that I hope a future studio will remake a story of the second age.
No it wasn't. I know you guys are decent folks and don't want to lead with negativity...but episode 5 was not good as an adaptation of Tolkien nor as an episode of a tv show...that being said I still prefer to listen to you guys over a lot of review channels who spew hatred from their rabid entitlement and anti-woke crusade. The show has a lot of problems but it's still better than Halo.
Celebrimbor's development makes no sense. He didn't want to make Rings for Men, then found out the 7 are messed up, then apparently believes Annatar's words that this is caused by his lies, but then he DOESN'T correct his lies and just decides he'll make more rings? He didn't fix what went wrong with the first ones, or if he doesn't believe it's the lies then he needs to find out what caused the problems. He has nothing to go on here anyway. The entire story of the ring creation is nonsensical here, and as a consequence the character is nonsensical either.
Also the Stranger searching for his name? That makes no sense because we see especially in the example of Nobody that names don't need to be found somewhere, but that they are given by others or that you give yourself. The search for a name is utterly meaningless.
I know 😂🤦♂️ i thought of this straight away
Watch that episode again. Annatar told him there is NO WAY to fix the seven, they were corrupted by his lies, however Celebrimbor can BALANCE the damage caused by the corruption of the seven by making the Nine. It's all perfectly logical and sensible all you need to do is pay attention 🙂
So by making more rings and still not telling the king that fixes it? Making MORE rings under a cloud of deceit? He still hasnt told the high king about the rings
@@HauntingIrishStories well you put it very bluntly, but YES. The lie was already told. Coming clean doesn’t make it all OK. He lied to his king. But he can balance that sin by another good deed: save mankind.
@@pinkacesorry but thats exactly the problem with the writing, it’s inconsistent and basically whatever the writers want to happen will happen. The logic doesnt stand up for any character. This show is a Frankensteins monster of writers and directors so its no wonder the show is all over the place. Anyone with a brain in Celebrimbors place would not have made more and hes a wise elf so the showrunners just made him look like a gobshite
I really dont understand how people can find the scenes between Celebrimbor and Annatar compelling or tense in any way. The whole thing is just so rushed and lacks any credibility. For example, if Annatar had presented himself in Eregion in episode 1 of season 1, and they were shown to spend the next two seasons working and making rings together over the course of years, and building a relationship with each other, and then, say some time in season 2 or 3, Annatar starts to manilpulate Celebrimbor and then a strained relationship between them would be far more believable and would hold my attention. But as it stands in the RoP timeline, Annatar has been in Eregion for what, a couple of weeks?? And already he is affecting Celebrimbor to the point where he is about to have a mental breakdown?! The story and characters haven't been given any time to mature and the worst part about it is that it makes Celebrimbor out to be a weak, insecure, dothery old fool.
So i get what you guys are saying when you say that an individual episode can be "good", but if the preceeding episodes havent given me any reason to care about the chracters involved and made the story interesting, then its still going to be "good comapred to what i was expecting but the whole thing still sucks"
You mean, if they had started the story at the start of the story, rather than create nine hours of prologue fan-fiction before starting the actual story, it would have been better???
I agree. That said I think you could have Anatar reveal who he is after one season if you focused entirely on the elves for a season.
Right? It is pure cope for people to find the Celebrimbor scenes compelling. Literally it is just Celebrimbor acting like a complete moron over and over again. Also the fact that the PROTAGONIST OF THE SHOW literally knew that HALBRAND WAS SAURON and her LYING TO ALL THE ELVES ABOUT THIS is why this stupid Annatar stuff is even happening. Like the only way Annatar Sauron tricks anyone is for all the elves to be complete idiots, including Galadriel taking Sauron's side effectively by lying to the other elves. It is all just so incredibly stupid.
@@Broomtwo This is why the reveal of Sauron in Season 1 fucked everything up. It makes no sense for Galadriel and Elrond to just not tell Celebrimbor right away. Instead Elrond steals the rings off-screen and Galadriel chases him, all so they can avoid telling Celebrimbor so he can be manipulated later.
Even if he didn't know Halbrand was Sauron he could have at least told Celebrimbor. And warn him that the rings are potentially dangerous, but not even bloody Elrond said anything to Celebrimbor.
In the books, they didn't know it was Sauron until he put on the One. If they had stuck to the lore a bit more at least it would have made sense.
This could have worked if they forged the 7 and the 9 in Season 1, and in Season 2 this was about forging the three to counterbalance the 7 and the 9, with the end result being the sack of Eregion. But they insisted on forging the 3 first, requiring "Halbrand" to come back in Season 2.
Celebrimbor could have even given the "greatest of the 7" and just that one ring to Durin III (which is in the books) in exchange for more mythril (which was not in the books--the elves and dwarves had a better relationship in the books and Mythril was used far more commonly). It was the only ring gave directly by the elves to a non-elf.
I tried to give this show a chance, but this episode broke the camels back for me, I can no longer watch this show. I do not care about a single character because everything is written and designed so badly. There is too much wrong with the show, the sense of scale of the world - I feel like I see the same 3 background elves in every scene, the writing, everything is just so awful and frankly boring.
What's the bet they're making the rings in that order in the show because that's the random order Galadriel lists them in at the start of the film trilogy though
That's so stupid it makes absolute sense for the makers of this show.
The Ring Verse that Sauron speaks in the books lists them in this same order:
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Not saying they should be made in that order in ROP, but at least this order is used in the books and not just mentioned in the movie trilogy prologue.
But that's not the order they were crafted in the books, and that's all that matters.
@@Elliott666666 oh, we know, it's just the dumb logic I know they would have followed and I want to call them out on being dumb because they're dumb
@@Elliott666666 Its a poem in the books that was written long, long after the rings were actually forged.
I enjoy watching Sauron deceive everyone
High Elf Celebrimbor sure is an easy mark even for Middle or Low Men. Just saying ...
@@deanzaZZRorc men?
Not a great achievement for the Dark Lord, when everyone behaves like a teenager.
Bro these guys are shills hahaj
Even with a “things done right” list I fear there is nothing that can save this series and make it into an actual Tolkien adaptation. Perhaps a supercut of the best bits can be put together to make a great fantasy story?!? But I honestly cannot see this show being salvaged as the Second Age story of Middle Earth with the trajectory they’re currently on 🤷🏻♀️ Cheers!
It is tiring watching some of characters doing something and thinking “they can do that” without proper setup. All it would take is one scene of Disa having some kind of relationship with the bats before having her summoning them. No context to a lot of abilities that a lot of these characters have.
Stop trying to justify it. "The sea is always right" is just Amazon's desperate attempt at giving the show a tagline comparable to "winter is coming"
The whole scene was a Sean Bean/Ned Stark/GoT re-write. I actually think there are a few sets from GoT in Numeanor and Rhûn scenes.
My fear is after the battle of Eregion, the finale is going to spend too much time on the Harfoots/Stoors, Not-Gandalf, discount Tom Bombadil and the femininen with the other dark wizard. Then a couple of weeks later the showrunners will come out and say season 3 will be heavily adapted from the lore. So predictable.
It was good compared to the crap they have delivered … overall it was horrible
I predict the series finale, the very last scene, will be the stranger saying “I am Gandalf”😂😂😂😂
How you guys thought ep. 5 was good/decent boggles my mind.
Satire. Compared to the other episodes. Not personally thinking it was good. It went from shite to forgettable mediocrity.
Ep 5 should have been s1 ep1, it would have stood a chance. Literally nothing important has happened before it. So maybe that's what they mean?
Perhaps the attempted take downs of Nerderotic's and Ryan Kinel's channels spooked Yoystan? 😢❤😢
I thought it was quite obvious that they put in the sea snake trial to set up Sauron for when he comes to Numenor. He obviously gets captured and is probably put on trial when he gets there. And as we saw in episode 1, Sauron can control the sea serpent. So he will survive the trial at which point the Numenorians will start to get corrupted by him.
It only makes Sauron's corruption of them less interesting. He slowly corrupts them WHILE THEY KNOW HE'S EVIL. Handling it the way the books did it shows him to be far more of an actual threat then just have a stupid trial by some ridiculous sea serpent that comes out of nowhere.
Oh i agree fully! I just can already see the trial thing happen in the show. They set it up way too obvious
If regular episodes are a 2/10 and then a 4/10 comes out, are we supposed to describe it as "twice as good" or "a 100% improvement in quality"?
This show is still dog water tbh
What's wrong with dog water?
Hot dog water
@@AlexJones-ex8ox ohhhhhhhh
When the elves, who can see further than any of the races of middle earth, couldn’t see the coming orc attack until it was right on top of them, I actually laughed! This was right after Anatar showed Galadriel the miles and miles of orcs carrying torches. Plus, did no one hear the noise or notice the felling of trees when they built all the siege engines? Do the writers actually think armies transported those things thousands of miles? So stupid!!
@@bekkison yeah, they didnt even try to make a justification of it. Even a stupid one would've been more believable (Sauron used a spell to cover the passage of the army, or tricking the scouts of Eregion to withdraw, anything!!!!!). The forces of evil simply pass through the lands of Eregion, Lindon, like they are going for a walk.
As bad as the show is, it’s still not as bad as season 8 of Game of Thrones was.
I think we can all agree on that.
I gotta say Charlie Vickers does Annatar so good....love the way he perfected that smirk!!
Rereading the fellowship this week.
Pair it with Phil Dragash audio book who brings the characters & songs to life. Some didn't even know he was the one doing all the voices. Spotify playlist.
Rereading The Hobbit right now. Will be moving onto Fellowship soon!
You just said the writing is bad. And the lore is wrecked so how can you even say a "super cut" would be a 9/10.
Betrayal! Crucify him at once !
They are open to this possibility because people have done this with other poor shows and improved them. For example, they mentioned the Hobbit movies supercut, and there are also the Patterson cuts of Kenobi and Ahsoka.
@@root13pieI’d say with the Hobbit that the bass that is being worked on is nowhere near as corrupt or bad as Rings of Power. Most of that trilogies problem comes from bloat and unnecessary time given to characters who do not add to the films. Here at its core it’s a mess.
I think its because they dont care that it is simplistic and bad, the action is still fun for them, which i just cant sympathize with. Everything they like is contrived drama but they dont seem to care how contrived it is
A super cut would just be the begging and end credits.
I hate it
IIRC Black Speech is not a form of Elvish so there is no reason for the average elf especially in the second age to understand it. Black speech is an artificial constructed language with a different system and structure to elvish. The ring poem in black speech is rendered into elvish script but is not actually an Elvish dialect.
I hated seeing the elves running around mindlessly, falling over and shoving each other. And the desecration of the Gandalf line.
On Sauron's magic: I think he already has the One. Like, the whole season.
My reading of the trial scene was that he was accused of inciting violence, and he copped to it because he did lash out at Kemen after Miriel told him not to. So he was disobeying her orders and probably felt genuinely contrite, especially given that the violence escalated to Valandil's death.
And would Galadriel gnashing her teeth over the lives of elves have had any impact on Adar? I don't think protecting Eregion was necessarily secondary in her concerns--I just think there would be no use pleading with Adar on any account other than his playing into Sauron's hand.
At 46:55, "Suddenly, Sauron" to the tune of "Suddenly, Seymour" popped into my head. 😂
I theorized that Sauron made the One Ring between seasons. The end of Season 1 shows him at Mount Doom, then he's suddenly with Adar? Why?
It makes more sense that he forged the ring before ever even going to Adar, which is why he was at Mount Doom. Lore wise the attack on Eregion did happen after he forged the One. Not that this show follows the lore very well...
@@jrconway3 Yeah, I think he might have used the Southlands sigil--it looks like it could have been tarnished gold. It just seems that he got a massive power upgrade, and there are hints he's doing even more than we know for certain (starting a storm, rocking Cirdan's boat, etc.). That might even have been where he was during the Mount Doom eruption, although that would be improbably quick thinking on his part, and it would make more sense if he worked with Celebrimbor first. Anyway, it looked like Pharazon saw the forging in the palantir, and it was connected with the image of Halbrand going into Mordor at the end of last season.
@@MrHobbes6 Of course if he did have the One, the elves should already know he's Sauron.
Basically from what I read about the rights situation: they have access to the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and Appendices. Plus specific case by case examples from other things, for example the name Annatar.
Morgoth destroying the Two Trees and stealing the Silmarils is mentioned in the LOTR, they can depict that.
Ungoliant is mentioned in LOTR, she is mentioned to be the parent of Shelob. Therefore they can show a big spider names Ungoliant. Ungoliant’s role in destroying the two trees is not mentioned, they can’t show that.
Also Turin is mentioned in LOTR, though just his name and that he’s an elf friend so not much for them to use there
To be more specific:
They have The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings books. That includes the Appendices because the Appendices are at the end of "The Lord of the Rings" meaning they're in the Return of the King book, after the story is concluded.
However, they must have more than just those rights to a limited extent. Miriel is not mentioned in the Appendices from what I can tell. And I don't think Annatar is either.
I always look forward to hearing your reviews every week! Thank you for bringing us your thoughts. Keep up the great work!
Re: music - Guys, I think the main reason music is underwhelming is that Lord of the Rings films literally used the score to convey themes or storybeats with said music and it's obvious relationship to cinematography. This series does not do that. It tries to convey its story solely through it's writing... and it's writing is incredibly poor and illogical. So not only is the music not a core component used to tell the story (as any fantastic film/series does), it is now secondary in the product, and it's main purpose is to try and support awful writing. This problem is DEFINITELY NOT limited to just the music in ROP lol as it's fucking awful.
It’s not the story or stories I wanted when this show was announced. Yes, there’s source materiel they don’t have access to but if that means you can’t do a faithful retelling of the histories the author created, then just don’t bother.
This can be good fan fiction or bad fan fiction and if you want to watch that, absolutely fine, but for myself, I’m simply not interested in such a wildly unfaithful adaptation of what I’ve seen waiting decades to see on screen.
And that doesn’t change regardless of how much money you throw at it.
Amazon can work their butts off to iron out the things people aren’t liking in this, but it’ll still be the same story that’s set in motion now.
This simply way the way the rings were created exactly as carefully described to us on the page, and much of this stuff did not happen or did not happen at the same time.
Yes, the huge scale of time makes it impossible to create a tight story but that’s tough for me: the depth of history - the span of thousands and thousands of years - is one of the fundamental things which makes these stories (that are being mixed up and fucked up here) feel so powerful on the page.
If you couldn’t make the adaptation of the stories in the Silmarillion for one reason or another, then don’t. 🤷🏻♂️ You would have been showing the author’s work you claim to love a greater level of respect.
This episode was utterly a joke.
The sea monster makes no sense considering Sauron's dark influence on the Numenoreans included introducing human sacrifice. Not much of an introduction if they already sacrifice people.
Thanks for posting these gents. I haven’t watched a single second of this show but have watched every one of these reviews.
I find it frustrating. Some bits are genuinely good, I like many of the dwarf scenes and I like Anatar and his gradual breaking of Celebrimbor’s mind. But then the political drama is so weak and most of the story telling is weak.
I like to imagine what could have been with this budget, the best bits kept but script and story telling of a show like Game of Thrones.
Every week I watch Rings of Power and end up playing on my phone but that never happens with a good show.
Been waiting all day for this one.
As I was watching this episode, I was appalled at how bad it was at several points. Two words come to mind: peak stupidity. Everything having to do with Tom and not-Gandalf, the harfoots, and even some of the stupid inconsistencies with Galadriel’s plotline were just too much for me. Not to mention the completely laughable thing about the bats and Disa. It really undid anything good in my mind from the previous episode. I really hope that moving forward episode 5 wasn’t just a fluke, but I’m afraid it will turn out to be that way. Not that it was fantastic, but it was the best that we’ve gotten, at least.
I was so frustrated about the whole Trial by Sea thing. Just like that useless Eagle coming to perch on a balcony for no apparent reason. Okay, let's assume Ye Olde Númenoreans had this tradition. The counselor specifically mentions that it's Valar who deal swift judgement using Sea-Wurm. Why would Ar-Pharazôn want to defer to Valar? Did he forget whom Faithful are faithful to? And why Elendil and Tar-Miriel were so afraid of that trial, aren't they Faithful enough?
Exactly
The writers do not have the skill to move the plot along in a coherent way, so that is why they just shoe-horn in contrived creatures to tell the Númenoreans what to think.
@@Broomtwo but why these writers cannot make sense of what these creatures represent, and how they relate to Númenorean beliefs? That's what bugs me the most
Episode 5 was not good. You are allowed to like garbage but call it "good"? no.
I had always thought the whole the sea is always right thing was like. A relatively recent cultural thing supposed to contrast the faithful with the current state of numenor.
Like even though the sailors were saying it. It was more if a recent propaganda thing attributing power to something that wasn't the gods. And if you can control the sea you can control power.
So elendil says that even though the sea killed his wife. He doesn't believe in it, but he has to go along with it for now.
He doesn't believe in the direction numenor is going, and his arc would be leaving the attitude of the sea being right behind with the faithful.
But then I guess the sea will be right in the end. Or maybe he realizes it's not the sea that's right it's like.. Actually the valar who sometimes use the sea as a tool.
And it seems like the sea being right is a pretty entrenched cultural belief. So it would maybe go back to the time when numenor was more faithful.
I really don't know. I had been giving them the benefit of the doubt before. But at this point yeah. I think someone in the writers room just thought it sounded cool.
I love the show, Sauron actor superb👍👍
How much did they pay you
The only good thing about this abomination of a show is that people started to appreciate 'The Hobbit' trilogy more. Huehue
But it only makes The Hobbit look good BY COMPARISON. The Hobbit is still average at best, and not very good.
@@Didymus20X6Oh yeah no, the hobbit movies are coked up circuses that have tonal schizophrenia.
I'm genuinely liking the Sauron and Celebrimbor scenes. Charlie Vickers and Charles Edwards are very good. On the opposite end, I think the Stranger/Harfoots stuff should just be cut from the show entirely. Those scenes do absolutely nothing for me, and this episode in particular really irritated me with using Gandalf's line from Fellowship.
They could've waited before doing this plotline for an anthology season. Keep the plot the same if you want but have the events of the Elves, Sauron, Mordor stuff effect their world more or at least bumping into characters like Arondir or seeing armies marching etc. It would still be bad but it might be better, more interesting and wouldn't impact the other storylines as much.
Elrond mentions "Hurin and Turin, And Beren Himself" at the council as the greatest of elf friends from the elder days.
Little bits like that are why there's more than enough material for a good show.
Y'all take bout how the Hobbit plotline is so far below the others, it drops the score - I think it is worse. It butchers and sabotages the other plotlines by ruining the pacing and stretching everything else too thin. Numenor being rushed is a direct result of this
This episode ended it for me. I'm done. No more.
The way these guys talk about this show. It makes me think they didn’t like it but they praise it so much. I’m confused.
It’s a bait and switch. They don’t wanna be called toxic they’re terrified of the crazy positivity addicts they are over praising to seem fair. Makes them sound pretty silly.
I’m always in eager anticipation of your well thought out reviews.
I agree with a lot of what you guys say in your RoP reviews, but I just can't take Arondir seriously. He's trying way too hard; every kill is nauseatingly over-dramatized and set up with unnecessary and unrealistic gymnastics, and then followed by some "serious pose" like he's taking a selfie for social media. Knowing he's in the show just to check the 'black elf' box is already infuriating, but at least they could have written his fighting less tropey.
"Arondier is the only elf in this show".
Well he's the only one who looks like he could fight and in fact they show him fighting. But it's still not a Tolkien Elf, it's a Lord of the Rings elf.
The problem is that the scene that he is in. Once again you were dropped into an opening where you have no idea where you are or what the character is doing or what his goals are or where he is even been. And you spend 3 minutes and you are out and you have really no substantial idea why you just watch that scene.
And this is kind of like most of this series. Often times you have no idea what's going on and that is used for suspense. And it's just cheap suspense.
The glaring thing you guys said is if this show didn't have the LOTR attached to it you wouldn't even bother watching it lol that tells me everything I need to know about how bad of a show this is lol this show is pointless conversations with pointless storylines and pointless characters that nobody likes or cares about I just wish Amazon would of hired Petter Jackson to make this show. God it would've been a true Tolkien experience
I don't think the show is very good but not nearly as bad as other commenters seem to think. Yes, I groan through some scenes/dialogue occasionally and overall it's an uneven experience. It's just not P.O.S. territory for me. Clearly, the liberties it takes with the lore irreperably damages it in the eyes of some, which is fair. No one wants to see LOTR become an IP buffet. I'll stand by the season itself being all right, although frustrating, unless it sinks further
The worst most annoying thing about the hartfoots is how they literally always remind you and say they are hartfoots.
I respect your honesty on your reviews. You always keep it real.
Don’t worry, the Proudfeet will show up for the finale!
Lol @ bathroom breaks 😅 I too group “Gandalf” and the “hobbits” together. Like, whatever is going on in the desert, I’m not that interested. I would rank Arondir as the show’s top highlight, then dwarves, then Adar as a character (his storyline is kind of weird) Eilendil, then elves. 😊
Who else is rooting for Sauron in this series? 🙋♀️
The only way to make a workable supercut is to turn it into a silent movie. Replace the audio with text boards like the silent movies did in the 1920s. Rewrite the scripts to match Tolkien's writings. Perhaps desaturate the film to a degree? 😊❤❤❤😊
Maybe season 3 if it comes will focus just on Sauron, Numenor and the Elves as the Half-foots story needs to end.
Why?
Actually it's Harfoots not half foots
I agree. The harfoots serve no purpose. The wizard, who I will never acknowledge as Gandalf because it doesn't make any sense, can go on his own path. I think these last two episodes have been great except for the harfoots.
@@Alex-s-m2p 🫡
@@jackwei22 Just a correction but I agree with you. This story does need to end.
C'mon guys, let's be real. 5 wasn't good and this was arguably one of the worst episodes of television ever aired.
I’m so enjoying one of my favorite Tolkien lore channels giving honest criticism to this show, I mean abomination.
The prison scene was straight out of GoT Ned Stark until it wasn't. Didn't hit the mark in the same way, and then the very sudden love story.. dunno. Edit: Good to have you back guys
You must be watching erik kain, since he did a mexican yoda impression for this too.
About how Sauron will manage to leave Eregion, we now know in this show of one ring that can make the user invisible and see the unseen world. He'll probably take this ring, put it on, walk to Mordor while being invisible, and modify the ring there.
I haven't watched the show at all, despite being a huge Tolkien fan, but I always tune into these reviews. Despite the destruction of the lore, the thing that really takes me out of this show is the costume designs. They are honestly terrible, especially when they are held up against PJ's representations.
Bad writing = Bad show.
A shows lives or dies in the writing .
I don't know if you read these comments but you were asking how Arondil is going to tie into the last episode: He's showing up with the ents and Isildur at the last moment. That map he got from the orc might be the only clue the show gives before they show up.
When you say you like annatar and how he's tall and all that, I saw that Charlie Vickers said he wears ankle weights when he's acting as sauron to make him move slower/have a heavier feel to it
It doesn't matter what's kinda good in this show because the bad!! And omg the bad over takes anything good like let's be real this show is Garbage plan and simple
The picture quality this week was very bad!
Do or do not waste a Billion dollars. Haha
As a deep tolkein fan myself i do understand the frustration, but i cannot understand the vitriol. The show is its own adaptation of the story and its not what i would have done, but i will still watch it without the absolute hatred people seem to have. Harfoots are boring. Tom and Stranger is boring and issues with changes to the lore. However the Sauron stuff i dont take any issue with, the way they are playing it out doesnt feel like a massive strech from canon. Lastly the portrayal of orcs and are they all evil....well tolkein himself did write something along the lines of that in their deepest of hearts they loathe Sauron and are sort of enslaved by Morgoth and Sauron.
There are issues with the lore, i myself question whether they know certain stories of the first age, like the Morgoth's crown, and do have feelings on it.....but it isnt hatred. Seems hatred is par for the course with mordern fanbases and vitriol is the norm for commenta and reviews.
Except it's no more an adaptation of Tolkien's story than the 1990s Super Mario Bros movie is an adaptation of the Nintendo game. It's like trying to adapt Red Dead Redemption and making it about trolls in space. Pointing out how poorly the show does its job of adapting Tolkien's world and stories isn't mere hatred - that's just your dismissal of people's feelings when we're stating facts. Maybe you should stop reading emotion into what people are saying and pay attention to what they actually say. Or, as has been pointed out by others, when people care about something, they're going to be angry at those who mess it up; that's the fault of those who mess it up, not on those who are angry about it.
As for the Orcs, so what if they hated their bosses? That doesn't make them less evil. Case in point: Shagrat and Gorbag. Their conversations sound like two disgruntled soldiers griping about their jobs and wishing for a better life. Fine and dandy. But then, as soon as they get Frodo back to the tower and start looting his equipment, they turn on each other and command their soldiers to slaughter each other. That's the nature of Orcs: they're still greedy and selfish at heart. In fact, that's the reason it takes powerful masters like the Nazgul, Saruman, or Sauron himself to keep them in line and working together; without some authoritative presence, they just degenerate into selfish b4574rds.
Celebrimbor is barely a character at this point, or is an evil, prideful moron. Saurons manipulations are hilariously dumb “nobody mind the dead elf with writing carved into his chest alls good here” 😂
Arondir murdering helpless orc deserters who just wanted to go home to their living families. Why is he so evil?
@@Didymus20X6 was never disputing that, it's just the level of anger is unnecessary. We still have our books! They're not going anywhere. It's just an adaptation that I do have my issues with sure just don't confront those issues with pointless anger. Its not that im blind to what people are saying. Im a bit fed of modern fan bases just becoming overbearingly toxic over what at the end of the day is an adaptation. So it isn't for you, don't watch it then, but to try and bring it down and not just let people enjoy it for what it is. A half baked adaptation that is half arsed with keeping to the books. Won't stop me enjoying good acting (there is a fair bit of it), the excellent visuals. Just seems people get caught up on the lore and whether it is faithful or close enough in their opinion. There are massive aggregious issues with the show, the Elves, the strangers story.
To be clear here, I am a lore guy for multiple franchises, I'm austic, it pleases me. So what's happening here is something I've seen in GoT, Star Wars, Star Trek.
I would ask if you feel Peter Jackson's triologies are also unfaithful adaptations? Was Azog a lore problem, yes...was his portrayal, character and story written for him reasonable, also yes. A few times these reviews have genuinely made mistakes of thinking something was said or done that isn't actually what happened in the episode, mostly because they are put off by the issues and not focusing, it is bias at this point. Rant about the "Nameless things" being used twice in an episode, when it's been said once that episode and the other was a "Dark, ancient and powerful" but no these guys are beating on about a line being overused that was used once this season! It's stuff like this that is nonsensical and just pointless anger and I wish to make people question the levels of crap they throw at the show. Let's be fair, the writing is still far better than the likes of The Acolyte and The Rise of Skywalker. I mean to put simply, Tolkien fans seem to be getting as bad as the general Star Wars fan base and that is not a good standard to hold.
Going back to the orcs I was never saying they can be redeemed. Just that the show seems to be taking the route of that they are enslaved under Sauron in the end which would be fitting. I would imagine orcs would create their own society if left to it, even if that existence is that of violence and ruin.
Built in bathroom breaks 🤣
I have an unrelated question. For a moment it looked like Aragon might not marry Arwin. Who else would he have married? He would be responsible to carry on his line, but if not with Arwin, then who?
Every episode is dog shit, also the last 1 😂
“Arondir is the only real elf in the show.” So true!!!
People say it's getting better and better, for me it's just getting dumber and dumber and i'm losing more and more interest.
I am so happy i didn't watch the second season.😊
The fact that the Harfoots have more screen time than Isildur or Arondir is a travesty in this season...
I give you alot of credit for even watching the show because i cant.