Rivian Ranks Low In Reliability But They're #1 In Customer Satisfaction | Episode 276
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.พ. 2024
- Join Francie and Skyler as they discuss results from Consumer Reports surverys on vehicle reliability and owner satisfaction. Despite scoring 28th out of 30 in reliability, Rivian had the highest owner satisfaction of any auto manufacturer. Skyler offers some insights and potential explanations for these results.
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#rivian #reliability #electricvehicle - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I wonder how much of that reliability was due to the tonneau cover
Everything counts!
Breaking down reliability scores by Powertrain is nonsense, especially when all the defects are spread across the whole vehicle and most defects that are counted have nothing to do with what kind of powertrain the vehicle has. Hybrids having "higher reliability" probably has more to do with Toyota dominating hybrid sales and their overall better reliability scores.
Exactly my thought. Very disappointed with Skyler's "analysis"
Good point.
Does the powertrain scoring include any charging system issues? Like the 12v battery dying or the onboard chargers overheating and de-rating themselves? Powertrain can't power the vehicle if they don't get power.
It was unsettling to hear Francie and Skler spend so much time blowing smoke on the issue of Ravian performing so poorly on its reliability issue. Insinuating that the Consumer Report's data is wrong without any proof doesn't reflect well on Out of Spec!
To me, there is an easy explanation for the disconnect between owners' satisfaction and reliability ratings. Car owners are not stupid. They know that vehicles break. When the repair experience is pain-free, the owner's satisfaction can remain high. It sounds like Rivian's system does a good job of achieving that. Providing owners with a loaner when needed, along with stressless phone support, is probably the key.
Coffee time with Francie!!! Yay! Coffee and Francie, my two favorites.
High owner satisfaction along with a low reliability rating is not unique to Rivian in CR surveys. Most EVs are new models and new models are usually less reliable regardless of the drivetrain.
Dataset size is important. Rivian hasn't sold many vehicles compared to others, and of those that are CR members is likely very small.
Rivian had the tonneau cover issue, and a software update that "bricked" some peoples cars. Most videos i saw people said while they were upset about the tonneau and/or software issue, they still liked the truck/experience overall.
With such a small dataset, just a handful of these owners experience could cause the results seen in this survey.
For the powertrain part, that’s easy to explain. Regular hybrid sales are dominated by Toyota with a Honda or two mixed in. The only other brand is a single ford. For plug in hybrid, Toyota only has 1 or 2 in the top list and there’s a lot other brands at the top of sales… bmw, Kia, Hyundai, Crysler, and then the jeep wrangler near the top in sales. Naturally plug-in hybrid is going to get a much higher number of reported issues merely due to brand reliability differences.
As for EVs being low, There’s more to “moving parts” than the engine/tramsmission. Many EVs are adding a lot of gadgets that typical ICE vehicles don’t have so there’s plenty to go wrong. I would also count failure to “start’’ at extreme low temps to be a problem.
The satisfaction makes sense, as people will overlook a lot of issues if they truly like the vehicle and still be happy. I remember seeing videos of people loving their Rivian then listing off 6 or 8 small problems. To me, I expect zero problems within the first couple of years and that’s largely been my experience with the last handful of ICE vehicles I’ve purchased.. one minor issue at most, except my most recent Passport has had a couple of minor but annoying things.
It's been true for some time that the best way to end up at the bottom of CR's reliability list is to have some major issues with things that we would associate with the word "reliability" in a colloquial sense (engine, transmission, etc) or to have a wide variety of small issues with the other tech and electronic stuff that falls under the technical definition of a "reliability" issue. An EV in general and definitely an EV from a new tech forward EV brand is almost guaranteed to be toward the bottom of the list for that reason. CR's list isn't garbage by any means, you just have to take it with a grain of salt, for this reason and others.
I agree that there must be a serious flaw in the methodology, or execution, of Consumer Reports ranking. Most likely it stems from a survey in which people blamed charging stations faults on the EVs themselves. But, mathematically the notion that more simple designs could have more problems than more complex systems raises the red flag.
When a product has an issue that affect most of their fleet, it will probably lead to customer satisfaction surveys like this. Almost all early Rivians had problems with their Tonneau cover, Chevy Bolts with batteries, VW with software, Tesla with panel gaps, etc. When all your cars have a problem (any given brand) then it should rate lower.
Early adopters and luxury brand buyers are willing to put up with a lot to maintain their perceived status.
Early adopters maybe, but luxury buyers are a lot more nitpicky. When you pay $90K for a vehicle, small issues are still unacceptable and you raise them.
I have owned my R1S since September 2023. I love the vehicle and I'm glad I purchased it. My experience dealing with Rivian the company has not been great. My Rivian wall connector failed within a month of installation. It took over a month for Rivian to resolve the issue. My Pixel 6 smartphone has never functioned reliably as a phone key. Because of this, I rely on the key fob instead. I have sent requests to Rivian and never received a response. I'm glad my R1S has been mostly trouble-free because response to me by Rivian has not been great.
I've gotten CR surveys before. Some of the questions ask things like have you had ANY issue with a given part of the car.
Rivian does great, but they did have recalls where they had to bring every vehicle in for physical re-torquing, issues with vehicles failing to respond, locking owners out, and at least one semi-botched OTA rollout, tonneau cover issues etc. these things chip away at the CR score, and I would agree Skylar that there is specifically some aspect of questions related to charging that are skewing their data
I believe the report is based on 2022 model years. Rivian did have some bugs to work out that have since been resolved such as 12v batteries dying, tonneau cover not working, clicking half shafts, thermal performance issues, etc. I believe that rating will get much better for 2023 model year and beyond. I have no such issues in my late 2023 R1T.
The Rivian is a great truck
Thank You for supporting Electric Vehicles and for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤
Are the Mics over modulated? 🤔
Keep in mind that Consumer Reports only asks people that subscribe to Consumer Reports, so the survey could be skewed
Because a sample of non-subscribers won't have the same amount of problems or just won't report them? I'm hungry for a pretzel.
I don't think so. They reach out to registered owners. I don't believe it has anything to do with actual publication subscribers.
@smarticus6384 it's true, it's just their subscribers. Which is a pretty big list, but definitely skew towards older men who care more about reliability and value than cutting edge tech... hence why they subscribe to the magazine.
@@smarticus6384 If you pause the video at 15:03, the second line says this is based on CR members surveyed.
@@RPRosen-ki2fk I received a letter from Consumer Reports stating that I was a registered owner of a vehicle from a maker on that list and asked if I would like to participate in a survey. And I am not and never have been a subscriber of their publication. I assumed from the letter that they were using registrations to identify owners.
Going on 14 months with my Model Y. Zero problems. Not even rattles or misaligned panels. Wife's Model Y is 3 months old, and same. No problems of any kind either. My loyalty is extremely high. ...... It's obvious that Rivian makes a great product. They'll get their reliability together eventually too, like Tesla's starting to do.
I own a Dual Motor R1T and I'm already replacing my rear Enduro Drive System. It was grinding and making noise. I cant remember ever hearing about a rear diff going out in a ICE pickup within 6000 miles of being made. Yes! still absolutely love my R1T and its worth the wait.
Rivian needs more service centers! Look at their map, they don’t have service centers 3+ hours in all directions from many metro areas that are 1million plus in the states. People aren’t going to buy the cars if they have to drive 3 hrs to the nearest service center or dealer!
I’ve received CR survey questionnaires in the past and always felt they were worded objectively.
Oh no surely you don’t mean………
I think it's interesting that people get a vehicle they know almost nothing about. Then complain that it's not like their ICE vehicle. I once went to a dealer and test drove an EV. Nobody could tell me anything about it. I told them that if they were so uninformed they couldn't tell me anything about the car, well I already had a car and walked.
In the 80s I took a ride in a converted ICE vehicle and was sold on the concept. I even bought books on how to convert my own, but didnt have the means.
To be safe it's best not to buy the first one off the line. With my Leaf I picked up a 2014 with the lizard battery. It has worked well for me. I have traveled to places I was told I couldn't go. Yes, I sometimes charged for four hours, but I traveled with that expectation.
If a peson isn't up for the adventure, don't and if you are be informed and knowledgeable. The experience will be more enjoyable.
I wish Skyler could elaborate more on what the actual issues he had or others that he communicates are experiencing...this is not digging into what kind of issues would be flagged by Consumer Reports, it's just a discussion
Skyler goes into serious speculation mode, then he comes up with absolute, definitive conclusions. Entertaining. Nevertheless, I am shocked MINI ranked right behind Lexus & Toyota. 😂
There's 10K parts to a car, so just bc the motor is less complex doesn't mean ppl don't have problems w/other parts.
Early Teslas had EV motors but lots of repairs. Rivian's have EV motors but their tonneau cover was so unreliable they stopped making it.
Bc of software and HV power systems, EVs overall are far more complex than ICE, so of course there are occasional issues especially with new entrants.
Repair costs can easily surpass any maintenance savings, too, once out of warranty
Are they counting problems with the charging network as a vehicle problem. Because that is out of the vehicle manufacturer’s control.
No they do not. Their testing/rating criteria are on their website in front of the firewall.
Good afternoon Francie and Skyler
They need more fleet sales. Anyone not mentioning that part of their business is not worth listening to about anything else.
It will be interesting to see what the changes in the next report after they cut announced back office employees. I want Rivian to survive as they will push Tesla.
Rivian had folks responding to you quickly so you feel good about the customer service, but those people rarely knew anything of value. Replacing them with robots will have minimal impact.
Depending on year, Jeep Wranglers have generally had poor reliability, but high owner satisfaction. The same for Mini. It happens.
Electric motors are simple. But an electric motor in a $10 Walmart fan isn't going to last as long as a SEW-Eurodrive motor with the same output. The same for motor controllers and other components.
For the Rivian R1T specifically, the worst ratings (much worse than average) were for:
Charging (won't charge at home; won't work with some public chargers; won't fully charge; charge connection; charge port door.)
Drive System (which may include: driveshaft or axle, CV joint, differential, transfer case, four-wheel-drive/all-wheel-drive components, driveline vibration, electrical failure, traction control, electronic stability control.)
Climate System (AC compressor, blower (fan) motor, condenser, evaporator, heater system, automatic climate system, electrical failure, refrigerant leakage.)
Body Hardware (Windows, locks and latches, doors or sliding doors, tailgate, trunk or hatch, mirrors, seat controls (power or manual), seat belts, sunroof, convertible top, glass defect.)
Paint/Trim (Paint (fading, chalking, peeling, or cracking), loose interior or exterior trim or moldings, rust.)
The problems with charging might have something to do with infrastructure, but cars like the Mach-E have "much better than average" rating for charging in the CR survey. The rest of the problem areas are regular car production QA/QC issues, that most of the legacy car makers would be expected to have sorted by now.
I had a rattle they fixed. But it works great. They came to the house and fixed it. I agree the small things maybe what they measured.
Keep in mind, they may be early adapters. Fan boys. Much more willing to accept issues then a mainstream buyer. Rank poor in quality, and rank excellent in satisfaction. I've heard people say the BYD Seagull EV having better welds then a Tesla
For Rivian, this survey is a small number of people with strong feelings.😮😮😮
you can interpret and read the same data in a thousand different ways. it absolutely depends on what the questions were and how they interpreted the answers.
Consumer Reports need to weigh the results, heavy emphasis on major drive related issues such as motor batteries etc with minor trivial issues very lightly weighted such as squeaks interior trim issues etc.
Rivian should insulate the air suspension compressor better. On my Grand Cherokee, the air suspension compressor is very quiet. I can only hear it if it comes on when the vehicle is stationary. Otherwise, it's almost impossible to hear.
You can hear the fan of the heater on low, in an EV. You will hear way more squeaks and squawks than in an ICE vehicle.
There is the battery pack thermal issues with DC charging, and the tonneau cover. The only real issues I ever hear.
The survey must be biased in some way.
Ice vehicles did not have to have to answer to charging issues when it comes to reliability. And we know reliability of charging for non-Tesla is terrible. So those who responded to the charging reliability of the vehicle question responded about the charging experience as a whole, which includes the chargers. So that is a big reason I think for not only EV companies like Rivian were down on the list, but also why Tesla, with their strong, reliable charing network, was boosted higher than what they probably would have been.
Let’s not forget they have only been in business a few years. Tesla has been at the bottom and are now starting to improve some.
Rivian turns 15 years old this year. That is not "a few years".
For people who don’t watch consumer reports content: This type of discrepancy between most liked and least reliable is not new. Jeep vehicles tend to do this quite often.
Additionally, new model years of redesigned cars tend to get much lower reliability than their predecessors due to their lack of refinement in manufacturing. Obviously a car like Rivian would be on this list. Everything they do is new.
The headline should be Tesla is the second most reliable American brand (behind Buick somehow).
I'm sure they're also including "recalls" that are fixed by software updates.
Did Toyota fund this report? Hybrids have the most chance of fires vs even pure ICE. Very interesting
I thought the unusually high reliability of hybrids is skewed because the dominant player is Toyota. Isn’t that the obvious answer?
How is Consumer Reports reliability??? Shakey in my experience!
I would prefer a Rivian to a Cybertruck any time.
Other than hating Teslas how did this guest contribute?
Teslas also used to shine in the satisfaction and flounder in the reliability.
People can suffer some issues but still be impressed with the car's other virtues.
Also remember that it also has to do with the target audience and number of vehicles sold. Rivian buyers, are people that know cars, like the brand and are mostly early adopters and will forgive quality issues or downplay them. (Like used to be with Teslas), but as volume of sales grow, regular customers who move from Toyotas and Hondas and are less forgiving to quality issues.
The guest may not have prepared for the interview, but the 35 minutes was not a total waste. We did learn about Francie's family issues at 20:20
Hey, they lost $46,278 per vehicle last year which was down from an +$100K per vehicle loss the prior year ... what's not to like?
BTW, I like the product but I'm not convinced they know how to make them at scale and time is running out. 🙂
@ 9 : 22 ouch add b
Rivian can only improve from here.
Guy who runs a Rivian community and youtube channel thinks Consumer Reports might be biased 🤔
The bias is Skylar is apparent. I think consumer reports is dead on with my experience. Yes I love the truck. Yes I would def buy it again. And in 29k miles over last year in my 23 R1T it's also been at the dealer 4 times and fixing to be 5. All minor things but still count towards them and the reliability problem. EV drivetriams are more reliable overall. EV's are not. There's a difference.
Hubby and I are going to the Rivian Stories camping trip and I will meet Skyler. Francie, I will email pics to you and OOS.
CR is very flawed. As much as I want to say it is just that they hate EVs, it seems more like they are bad at their jobs.
Just a reminder to get your info from many places and always question motivation and professionalism.
CR takes payola from ICE manufacturers.
34:00 Looking forward to getting out in the R1T this Spring.
@@dianewallace6064 If they do, it is under the table. It is sad either way
@@dianewallace6064Evidence?
Before EVs came on the scene, CR had huge problems with their survey methods. They ask the ignorant drivers about problems they had and reported it. I had chose a vehicle to buy, based on several high mileage rentals. I looked at the CR survey and their report didn't match my experience at all. So I somehow got a copy of the CR survey questions and answers on the car (I think from Consumer Digest, but that might not be accurate). All of the problems were stupid little things that didn't matter to me at all. Ever since then CR is dead to me. I bought the car, drove it for twelve years (160k miles) with regular maintenance. My only repairs were from people hitting my parked car in parking lots. I gifted the car to a family member, and it has been going for 5 more years.
If you look at the funding of CR, it mostly comes from the Ford Foundation. Their past reports constantly bashes Tesla.
The Ford Foundation has no affiliation with the motorcars company.
Ha Ha Haaaaaa no reliability . What could give a sense of satisfaction for owning an unreliable lemon
I've been warned that CR is heavily influenced by OEMs financial support of their business.
As someone who worked for them and was well acquainted with CR's stringent and enforced conflict of interest policies and firewalls, this is not true. I'd be suspect of any source who says that because they are not speaking from a place of factual knowledge. Whether or not you agree with the usefulness of CR's methodology is up for debate, but their independence is not.
Considering this episode and More Perfect Unions story about Rivian Factories (th-cam.com/video/TIfNl5NIBSw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ygnAJXsEYYNnvdt1) sounds like Rivian really needs to improve everything about their factories.
That video leaves the viewer with an incrediblly negative impression of Rivian. If you include the comment section there is a lot of Rivian owners & employees (both former and current) providing input here. I would love to hear Frank, Kyle, and Skyler's impression of this video.
It does sound bad. Though that video and even the comments will have a specific political / social bias, the story that comes out is that Rivian has an unorganized and potentially toxic work culture.
BUT. It's also not surprising to hear that a fairly new entity (can we call them a startup?) trying to jump right into mass production is 1) messy, 2) inexperienced, and 3) not built a strong positive work culture yet. Of course, being tied to Amazon has its own issues. But I still think we sometimes reach for the evil villain card too cavalierly. IMO a bit too early to tell a full narrative on it.
One thing that I do find interesting is that you can already see the EV haters on the political right trying to coopt the story. Blue collar workers are a key voting demographic and if you can't reach the pro-union people through the union (pretty decisively failed there) then maybe you can get them by hating on EVs and telling people that it's the elites who are messing up your jobs with stupid fairytales blah blah misinformation. Again, a side point from working conditions needing to be better at factories, but certainly one that I think has wide ranging ramifications as we've seen with UAW action and the weaponizing of EVs for political points.
Even negative publicity for Rivian is good publicity since Rivian was basically unknown prior to the last earnings call.
Francie like me give you a fact -- at this point in time it is known that Consumer Reports are not big fans of EVs.
Sadly rivian might not make it because they did not focus on production cost and assembly difficulty
I think the amount of Rivian owners responding to this survey is going to be incredibly small compared to all the other brands. Whenever you have a small sample in a survey, I think the accuracy of the results is going to be flawed. There's also a lot less model years of Rivian out compared to the other makes. The longer a customer has owned their vehicle, the less likely the honeymoon period of ownership will influence their opinions.
Consumer Reports editors also called out the Rivian R1S as one of their worst vehicles of 2023 in their talking cars podcast. How are they so out of sync with actual owners?
If you have listened to, I think it’s Jake with CR…he is very biased against Rivian and demonstrates a lack of knowledge about driving an EV. He said in driving the R1T he gave his family motion sickness due to the regen. Maybe learn to drive a one pedal EV before hand.
Its also an issue of narrative and I hate to say it but Francie you feed into the narrative when you say things like Rivian "Its not the fastest charging" This may be true but its also relative and need not be perpetuated. When compared within its own class of trucks it is on par or better charging then its competition. Just because there are vehicles that charge faster doesn't mean Rivian doesn't charge fast.
Oil company own consumer reports???
CR did an awful job interpreting their own data. There is no way EVs have less reliability than ICE. EVs must have greater reliability than all hybrids due to engine complexity. Now, readers will cite this report as why EVs are bad. I wonder if that was CR’s objective.
Can you back that up with data?
@@Derpy1969 Yes, both the host and guest reported motors in EVs are much simpler than gas engines. As an engineer, I concur. Far fewer moving parts, no high heat, no transmission or exhaust to maintain. It's intuitive EVs are much more relaible than gas or hybrids. After all, a hybrid is a mix of EV + gas engine. I beleive many of the reliability issues are related to poor public charging (non-Tesla).
I think you are asking the wrong questions.... Not "why" does the data smell funny, but who is behind the smelly data ? Follow the money
Rivian is losing over $40,000 on every vehicle that they sell and they will burn through their capital in less than 2 years so all of this is likely moot.
Not necessarily. Tesla lost billions year after year after year. Rivian is spending money on expansion along with Lucid. So they have to spend money they get no return on. So technically yes they are losing money on every vehicle they sell, but at some point they will be making another vehicle on the new lines and will be making money. Tesla lost billions and billions building gigafactories in China, Texas and Germany. They are all making vehicles now making Tesla some money.
Remember this “loss per vehicle” is total overhead costs divided by number of vehicles. If overhead cost remain constant the loss per vehicle will drop as they produce more volume and could actually turn into a profit i.e. Tesla.
Right...
Because building out a charging network, a new plant in Georgia, updating their manufacturing methods (i.e. the whole new electrical layout Skyler mentioned) doesn't cost anything.
These numbers are created by a simple formula of "what was your income, what was your spend? subtract. Divide that by number of vehicles delivered". That is such a great measure of a company that is spending hard to expand and invest.
While spending more than you make is typically a bad business model, for a startup automaker that is expanding their manufacturing (and doing so in the USA, not Mexico or China like Tesla) is a GOOD thing. The fact that they are building out their own charging network shows some commitment to the customers and is going to cost them before income is recorded.
All in all, Rivian is doing quite well. Which I guess has the anti-EV nay-sayers with their panties in a bunch.
If I had any criticism, it would be in regards to battery sourcing. But then, they might have investments in that with other companies that are building here in the USA (many are) that I'm just not aware of.
All of this assumes that Rivian volume is going to increase, thereby decreasing the overhead which has resulted from these capital investments....and all within the next 2 years, which is how long their treasure chest will last. And that assumption was based on the wishful thinking of EV fanboys who think that carbon is evil. Well....VW, Ford, GM, and every other manufacturer who blindly jumped on the EV train are ALL now backpedaling on the projections. In the US, the demand is just not there, and most certainly has flattened on $100k EVs... and reality is finally soaking in. It turns out that Toyota and Honda were right all.
It's called "investment" and if you divide it up over something you can manufacture an outrageous statement. Next time try "Rivian is losing $400 on each roll of toilet paper they use in their restrooms." As for the 2 years, it's a shame Tesla didn't buy them instead of building the Cybertruck.
This is truly an issue with how CR collects their data associated…Tesla had this same issue early on when EVERY question associated with “how to” was technically being submitted as complaints.
Most importantly, CR and other sources, if comparing to ICE or hybrids against True EVs, need to penalize every vehicle that goes in for an oil change in their service ratings which they don’t.