Could not agree with you more regarding F.S.. Smoke deflectors=Brunswick Green =60103. And speaking of second to none, your tribute to the late Peter Townend is mandatory watching.
Hmm. I do think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As to famous exploits, you're right in terms of the public ones but Peter Townend was very clear that it's contribution to the railway towards the end of steam (as with the other A3s) was critical whilst diesels were being introduced and would not have been possible with the conversion.
I love Gresley A3's in any format but 103 is in its most efficient mode now and we have to remember with the environment pressures we should burn fossil fuels efficiently. Not forgetting the cost of coal, any savings must be considered. Personally, I like the current setup, at 69 years old its how I remember them.
I was really happy when I saw that the NRM had outshopped The Flying Scotsman as she was when BR retired her (Brunswick green, Kylchap exhaust, German smoke deflectors etc.) I strongly agree with your comments. The final product was the acme of the original A1 design that had evolved through years of operational use. In its last years, the Flying Scotsman, and her updated siblings, could take over Deltic diesel duties (breakdowns!) and keep time. Just the sort of engine that has a good chance of being able to continue to run on our modern railways. It is notable that when Alan Pegler bought the Flying Scotsman (Thank you Alan), he had the engine modified so it looked close to how it had looked in the mid 1930s. He had every right to enjoy putting his personal preferences into practice, since he saved the engine by buying it. Because his achievement was great, this particular look left a great impression with the general public. This has been further reinforced by the passage of time, which seems to have given this particular look a stamp of 'authenticity.' An operational steam engine is not totally removed from an 'Irish hammer'. For example: - the Flying Scotsman has had 3 different class classifications (A1, A10, A3), 3 different styles of dome, 3 different types of chimney, 4 different liveries, different numbers (1472, 4472, 502, 103, E103, 60103), 8 or 9 different tenders and well over 10 different boilers. In order to be authentic are we going to go back to the short travel valves of the originals and use the same metals for the valve pistons etc? It didn't take more than a few years for Sir Nigel Gresley to realize that longer valve travel was needed. If we restored the valves/valve events back to the original specs, we'd have a ham strung inefficient machine that would struggle to keep time, nothing like the mid-1930s machine (Although this had to be thrashed to reach 100mph even with an ultra light load) and a far cry from the far more efficient, free running and powerful 1960s machine. Here is a worthwhile thought-provoking article on the topic of conservation/preservation/restoration >> journal.sciencemuseum.ac.uk/article/flying-scotsman/#abstract Rather than choose some particular point in the evolution of the engine, I think that deciding to outshop the loco in its most advanced operational stage is better and, overall, leaves less room for debate and untethered nostalgia. Anyway, I love to see the final version powering along the rails. It's a great tribute to the collective efforts of the LNER/BR steam engineers of the 1920s to 1960s.
Thank you for such a considered comment. Enjoyed reading that. And also the article you included the link to which as you say is a really through provoking piece.
@@GreenSignals Let me return the compliment. Really enjoy the cut and thrust of your channel. Although I've been a bit slack recently, I enjoy posting a wide range of things on TH-cam. I think you'll find my last vid, about the first run of the Silver Jubilee, interesting ....... th-cam.com/video/uLuLrIDbSJg/w-d-xo.html Sad to say, I missed the 88/9 trip of FS to Alice Springs as I was stuck out bush and couldn't get into town!!!
Cheers Tim! We always try and be balanced and fair, but we understand that not everyone will agree. But as long as we have a good debate, that's the main thing! Cheers. Richard
I would personally quite like to see Flying Scotsman in LNER form, not least because there's just so many locos in BR livery, but it would make sense to keep the loco in a form most fit for the best possible for mainline performance, and it does have a very unique appearance in BR form with the German smoke deflectors.
In regards to the Flying Scotsman livery/single chimney vs double chimney argument, I guessing the reason why it's being considered going back to single chimney is being considered is because it you look all the significant great things that F.S has done... • First locomotive to non stop from Kings Cross to Edinburgh. • First steam locomotive to achieve 100mph. • Staring in a film of the same name. • Being the only steam locomotive allowed to run on BR. • Appearing in the Railway series books. • Going to America. • Appearing at Rail 150. • Appearing at Rocket 150. • Going to Australia. • The first steam locomotive to travel on the central Australia railway. • Setting the longest non stop run by a steam locomotive (422 miles). • Becoming the first steam locomotive to circumnavigate the globe. What all these things have in common is that she is was in single chimney form and painted in LNER Apple Green on every single one of these occasions, hence that's how she's been globally recognised and depicted in popular culture. Flying Scotsman has never achieved anything of any great significance when in double chimney form when painted in BR colours, which is probably why going back to double chimney form and BR colours in the 1990s upset a ton of people. It's a bit like when a certain type of clothing becomes part of a certain celebrity or personalities identity.
They are all good points Callum. But the reality is we have the railway in 2024 and performance management when running steam trains intermingled with 125 mile/h sets is a different kind of challenge. It is vital that FS performs as best she can - and that will be delivered in her current form. Maybe the best compromise is (as others have suggested) we run her as she is now whilst she's got a mainline ticket and when the day comes as it inevitably will that she becomes a static exhibit, she is returned to as built condition then?
@@GreenSignals Thank you for responding to my comment, much appreciated. 😊 I think however I can provide some counter arguments to the points you raise.. On the subject of performance, steam locomotives on Network Rail are restricted to 75mph* anyway which was cruising speed for a Gresley A1 let alone a Gresley A3. Also the majority of steam tours nowadays have a diesel on the back as a tailgunner to provide assistance when required anyway, as well as providing ETS and to assist with shunting manoeuvres. Another factor to take in to account when measuring locomotive performance is coal quality (the burning question). Now granted, a double chimney A3 will out perform a single one on low grade coal that is little better than dust, however with good quality coal the differences can be marginal. When Flying Scotsman was in the United States (in single chimney form at the time) there was some initial concern over the quality of coal they'd encounter on that side of the pond. However when tried on anthracite coal from Virginia (specifically West Virginia) she's said to have performed really well. It was to quote Alan Pleger "Not all that dissimilar to the Yorkshire variety" which the A3s were designed to burn. *60163 'Tornado' being the exception
@@callumthornelow2936 I think it unwise to assume high quality coal will always be available to guarantee performance on every mainline trip. With a Kylchap a wider variety of coal can produce more predictable results. The loco's designer became a great fan of the Kychap exhaust only a few years later, after seeing the phenomenal increase in output achieved by Chapelon's rebuilds in France. I am sure more LNER locos would have been fitted pre-WW2 if not for the very high license and consultancy fees demanded by the patent holder and their UK agents, amounting to some 10% of the construction costs of an entire new loco at the time. Of course everyone also knew the patent was about to expire, which it did during WW2, allowing Thomson to use the exhaust freely for his rebuilds and new constructions, followed by Peppercorn on the A1s. Gresley was aware of the forward visibility problems of the softer exhaust, which is why various designs of smoke deflecting apparatus were tried (once again) on Humorist when it became the only A3 with a Kylchap in 1937. The deflector design settled on for that loco eventually became a template for later Peppercorn locos. If the A3s had not recieved Kylchaps post war they might have had double chimney anyway, along with the A4s, to the 'Swindon proportions' being used on BR standards. That was the BRB preference at the time and a serious proposal in the early 1950s until L.P. Parker got dad on the case to argue for the proven Kylchap solution instead.
I’ve used Grand Central several times from Hartlepool to Sunderland then Metro to Newcastle instead of Northern because of the overcrowding and short formed trains of Northern. I doubt I’m the only one despite GC reliability issues.
@@GreenSignals if they get their stop at Seaham approved I’d imagine there will be far more people doing the same thing at weekends, a lot of people get left on platforms by the Newcastle, Carlisle and Hexham trains.
Happy to contribute. It is better value than a magazine! You are both clearly passionate about the industry and take time to engage with your audience.
Regarding the open access operators getting a 'helping hand' in the first 4 years with reduced access charges, is that not the same as new retailers sometimes getting rental subsidies, etc for a period of time when setting up, in order to help with the start up costs and whilst the business gets going? It could be argued that anything a new retailer negotiates is 'unfair' to existing retailers too? Also, and sorry to ask again, how is the investigation into whether Huw Merrimans claims were 100% truthful, going?
Class 40 or type 4 English Electric. A lovely locomotive to work on as a driver. But were about 500 hp underpowered for a lot of the trains they were timetabled haul!
Interesting feedback, thanks. I did try out the new Hitachi seats on the Avanti West Coast AT300 sets and they were excellent. Perhaps a case for retro fitting?
Martijn Gilbert has hit so many nails on the head here, and I look forward to seeing the full interview. Open Access operators are bringing genuine competition to any routes where there is actually a choice of operator for the customer. This cannot happen under the standard route/regional franchise system. Subject to ironing out the way that operators pay for track access and other charges, which will surely have to come, this has to be one of the major catalysts for growing the railways. Bring on the day when a customer can choose Lumo, as an example, to travel North from London to somewhere else, and return, without having to suffer the cost and difficulties associated with, as another example travelling on a long electric unit which is likely to be cancelled, delayed, not correctly staffed, etc., etc. Abstraction will hurt all those who turn their backs on their customers.
I'm afraid that if the abstraction is material, then it does not hurt those who turn their backs on customers because they are on management contracts. It is the taxpayer who pays.
@@GreenSignals Yes, but surely continued poor performance will lead to loss of franchise? I think we are agreed that that there is one major London-Scotland operator doing a good job at present. I do readily acknowledge that I don't always follow exactly what's going on, however, so I happily stand to be corrected again.
The competition is with air and road, open access takes up valuable paths, the sooner people realise that the better, I would get rid of them tomorrow if it was down to me
I do feel it slightly odd a podcaster digging into the detail of the cost to the public of, eg Open Access. Isn't the measure the service level, not what it costs me, the tax payer. Let the competitors argue that one.
It would be very wrong to refit a single chimney to 60103. The condition she is in now is that remembered by most of us still alive in the UK who followed railways in the 1950s and 1960s. It should be also pointed out that Nigel Gresley intended to fit Kylchap exhausts to all the Pacitics and V2s but his plans were thwarted by WW2 and his death.
You have prodded a wasps nest on the livery of Flying Scotsman... irrespective of single or double chimney. I am fed up seeing BORING BR green and black on iconic locos. Bring back Apple Green for LNER locos, Crimson Lake for LMS locos and so on. I am so sick of the nonsense of fitting central locking to Mark 1 coaches. You can't fall out of them by accident! They are vintage vehicles and should not be changed. Its about time this was understood.
Well, I suspect livery is a matter of taste. Personally, I love BR Brunswick Green. You love Apple Green. That's great - we both like something different. Neither of us is right or wrong. Just different. As for slam door stock though, we will have to disagree. If you look at the stats, it would appear there were a significant number of fatalities involving hinged door rolling stock, both on platform and on train, prior to the regulations changing. You are right that they are vintage vehicles. That does not mean we carry on running them accepting the same level of risk.
In regards to Flying Scotsman, I personally think that the NRM SHOULD repaint her back into LNER Apple Green and convert her back into single chimney. I have the upmost respect for Peter Townend, and the smoke deflectors and double chimney were indeed improvements to the performance of the A3s, but it if you ask me, the fact that she operated for a single chimney for the first 30 years of her preservation life cannot and should not be overlooked (may we also remember that she set the world record for longest distance ever travelled by a steam locomotive, and also pulled a 735-ton loaded train for part of said journey), and while I agree her prewar Apple Green livery isn’t historically authentic for her mechanical condition as an A3, considering how long she carried her various fictional forms of the livery from the ‘60s to ‘90s, why should they not be counted as part of her history?
I appreciate both you lovely gents would have seen BR Green as it was worn by service stock (say, an occasional Class 40 which never got BR blue perhaps) but Nigel did perpetuate the myth that the colour is known as Brunswick green. Whilst both preservation societies and model railway manufacturers keep referring to the scheme as "Brunswick Green", that identification was an error perpetuated by railway modellers of the 50s who were told to substitute the actual Deep Bronze Green, as it was actually named, with the GWR's green as it was available from your enamel paint brand of choice. I'm sorry to sound so awfully pedantic, but in an age where we have accepted Lion and Locomotion did not look the way they do now and even Flying Scotsman herself is disputed to be an original machine, we might want to let the mistakes of the 50s behind us.
I must confess my memories of green diesels are quite limited to the odd 20, 47 and of course 40106. Fascinating info re Brunswick Green though - thanks!
Perhaps WCR are concerned about spending a load of money fitting CDL to their Mk1s and ORR turning round in a couple of years and saying "no more Mk1s on the mainline as they are not crashworthy". Maybe WCR want a guarantee from ORR that if they invest in Mk1 CDL, they will be able to run the stock on the main line for, say ten years. That would explain why they ARE fitting CDL to Mk2s, which can expect a fair few main line years ahead of them, but holding off with Mk1s for fear they will be banned from the main line before WCR have recouped any CDL investment on them.
While we are lucky enough to have Flying Scotsman running on the mainline, as a conserved working machine, let's focus on the "working" aspect and keep the current choices of optimised chimney, livery etc. Sadly a time will come when Flying Scotsman might be obliged to give up mainline work due to age (or regulations!) and become a museum-piece (or be relegated to heritage line work) and that would be the time to restore to "as built" configuration (performance would be largely irrelevant) and revert to original livery at that time. This two-phase approach would be the best of both worlds and go a long way to keep everybody happy.
Maybe in your opinion but Mallard is the world's most famous team engine search it's in York at the moment it should be on the rails. And in it's livery was it Brunswick green or British rail green. Never been keen on the blue.
I was there at Holbeck sheds in Leeds Copley hill Neville hill family in the late 50s early 60s cabin all the engines in the sheds so many of A4 class. Show elegant. I saw flying Scotsman in service but I was never impressed with it.
I found it very interested in listening to you too guys. Even though I don't agree with everything you're saying. Especially promoting flying Scotsman above everything else.
No no no the flying Scotsman is not the world's most famous steam engine. It's Mallard they should spend money getting Mallard back on the rails. I started trainspotting in the 1950s so I've seen the erection of a lot of these steam engines. I get sick of people saying the flying Scotsman this the flying Scotsmanthat. There are far more elegance steam engines than the flying Scotsman Britain built and design some of the most elegant sedum engines in the world. And we're looking up to have some left to appreciate. Most people who sell the flying Scotsman is the world's most famous steam engine. I bet they won't even trainspotters from the 50s up to now. Just jumped on the bandwagon of everyone seen the flying Scotsman is the best steam train in the world. This is my personal opinion. I'm not rude about it I'm just putting my opinion forward.
Great video as always and, as a working volunteer, thank you for the item on the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway and your supportive comments; I think everyone involved with the railway is very much relieved to get back into Duffield station.
Another cracking show guys and Richard impressed with a nice piece of 40 035. Fully agree with you on Flying Scotsman. It only became a A3 later in its life and if anything its a lovely example of the improvements made to steam to improve performance of operation so its fitting it runs in its present form as LNER and BR intended. Worthy of preservation for that alone. I'll keep a look out for the full interview on open access operators. The short version was very informative.
CDL was looked into as part of a project for life extension of the Mark 1 EMU fleet. There are several relatively simple and inexpensive solutions. Fitting solenoid latches to the simple narrow hinged doors on these vehicles should not be an issue.
@@dasy2k1 I thought most Mark 1 stock was dual-braked quite soon after BR adopted air brakes as standard. Reluctance to deal with the locking issue was one of the reasons for the premature withdrawal of the mark 1 EMU fleet, much of which dated from the mid 1970s and should have remained in service until 2020 - 15 to 20 years' life was lost, with corresponding unnecessary costs.
@@physiocrat7143 most Mk1 stock that is in use on the mainline is. But most CDL systems require air brakes to function. (the emergency release mechanism needs to also vent the brakes and some systems use the air to actually drive the lock bolts) It can't be hard to make the emergency release vent both air and vacuum pipes but it would need to be a solenoid powered bolt I guess
@@dasy2k1 Sounds unnecessary complicated. Mark 1 stock was built with a 24 V electrical system and then 1000V supply was added for ETH. Plenty of power to drive a little solenoid. Some means would have to be devised to send a signal to switch on the solenoid and release the bolts.
Watched a couple of your vids now and very much enjoyed them. Just subscribed. On FS, the new "arrangement" sounds rather nebulous, but then the NRM seem to do some very odd things, like scrapping the workshop for a play area? Seems other museums are losing sight of their purpose in favour of getting more people through the doors, which needs addressing by having more enthusiasts and practical/engineering people at the top. Keep the double chimney, it's best for performance, and that's what she's made to do on the mainline. The smoke deflectors are not particularly pretty, but again, if that's how she runs best then so be it. Keep up the good work!
Thanks! So glad you love the show. Suspect it’s a real tightrope to manage for museums and similar institutions. Funding is such a challenge so one can see why they do have to focus on commercial income generation as well.
I can see no reason why you can't paint Flying Scotsman in any colour you like. Keep the mods if they make it run better. If the LNER had existed in the 1960s it would have made the changes and probably kept the right shade of green.
Personally i think it looks rather splendid exactly as it is today. Double Chimney, funny little smoke detectors (which I am told work really well) and Brunswick Green.
Nigel your comments On Scotsman are as I have come to expect from you Spot On Sir The only logical reason I can fathom for converting back to the original exhausting arrangement would be to de rate the performance to prevent excessive wear ,in much the same way as the Western Region of BR did with the class 52 Western Diesels back in the day. Strikes me as a somewhat foolish idea !..
Regarding Flying Scotsman, I agree completely with Nigel- Double chimney, German pattern smoke deflectors and BR Brunswick Green. I find the change of its custodian contract very unusual, to put it mildly. It seems almost like the award of a shipping contract during the pandemic to a company which didn't have ships! Ecclesbourne Valley Railway- great news about a very nice line. I loved it. As for the quiz, I immediately thought of John Betjeman and the Euston Arch, but I can't find any actual quote by him using the words "malice and philistinism". What I did find was a quote in the "Architectural Review" accusing the government of "Apathy and Philistinism" (I personally would have used the words about Thompson's rebuild of Gresley's "Great Northern).
Interesting episode as always. The flying scotsman contract is Interesting to me. The question of who the operator would be is an interesting debate. I did wonder if Loco services limited might get involved with it. Otherwise its going to get caught up with the West coast CDL issue. For what it's worth I think the livery debate is not necessary. The answer for me is if they wanted to use LNER livery on Flying Scotsman just paint it Apple green and take the smoke deflectors off. Keep the doubble chimney and the better performance. Half way house I know but not a bad option
Just one phrase springs to mind - signal sighting. Driver concerns led to deflectors being introduced. They appeared in many late powerful express designs in one form or another either from new or by retrofit. The A4 front wedge shape proved excellent at lifting the entire exhaust plume clear of the cab and train at speed, as were the Witte style deflectors fitted latterly to A3s. They have a different action to that of traditional vertical sheet deflectors, which aim to create a fast smooth laminar flow of air from in front of the chimney along the boiler, through which a smoke-free forward view should be available, but do not typically attempt to lift the plume. The rising lower edge with the fold-under of the Witte 'scoops' some of that forward air and directs it upwards, creating a rising current that carries the plume. Dad saw the design in action from the cab on a professional visit to Germany in the 1950s. DB were using the design widely on new builds and retofitting prewar locos, and the list included many slower locos used on freight and secondary lines which were by no means fast duties. Dad came away with the impression DB was delighted with the design and had cab experience on express duties to back that up. So when visibility became a hot issue as the Kylchaps were rolled out, Dad suggested trying the German style deflector, sending Doncaster a side photo of a DB BR 01 pacific at Koeln Hbf. To his enormous surprise, management said yes, the drawing office produced a drawing, and the plant set about making prototypes within weeks.
@@marktownend8065 a fantastic addition they were too. I have the highest respect for your dad and his achievements. Being a big fan of North Eastern pacifics. I'am not trying to say the deflectors are not needed. Just wondered if it could work with the doubble chimney retained but the deflectors removed as it ran in thr late 1990s in LNER livery. I guess the bottom line is that its a restored A3 pacific running on the mainline in 2024 which is good enough for me.
Keep the Scotsman double chimney as she is. That’s the best for the modern world while preserving her heritage. Looks better double chimney anyway. Another great episode guys, but what on earth is happening with the Jacobite? More confusion! Looking forward to the full interview on Monday too. All the best, Timmo
I must say that Richard has excellent taste in Italian bikes. On that point, 'Flying Scotsman' is not - and cannot be in 1960s condition simply because it has modern fittings such as AWS, TPWS, OTMR. So on that basis, brunswick green is as wrong a livery as LNER green or anything else historical. Therefore, I propose Bianchi Celeste would be a truly historic colour and generate much publicity.
Now then. That’s an excellent idea. Having said that, my Bianchi Specialissima (with Campagnolo Record and Campag Bora wheels 😬) is not in Celeste but something that approximates to Brunswick Green. So it’s all a bit tricky!!!
Keep Scotty as she is ,as last ran butb when her time comes for static display THEN put her back to LNER standard ,single chimney , round dome etc' that would make more sense
I really can’t see why the public are so fascinated by the Flying Scotsman. When it’s all boiled down, it’s nothing more than an everyday steam locomotive.
They have done a terrific job marketing the Jacobite over the years. Chapeau to that. But our job is to reflect the facts as we see them , although we will always be balanced. Anything else would be unfair.
More regarding the Jacobite! This morning a full rake of CDL stock was taken from Steamtown to tom na faire/ Fort William. 3 MK2 TSOs (one being Mk2a, the others Aircon), a MK1 RMB and an Aircon MK2 FO.
One thing about using MkIIs on the Jacobite and other steam specials. Who wants to travel on such a train when you have no chance to hear the steam loco working hard at the head end. A none starter for me...
Really depends upon which mk2 looking at. The reason for the mk1/Mk2 rake that they used was the CDL needed power which was supplied by the dynamo on the mk1’s. However early model mk2, mk2a had opening windows and vintage trains runs a rake of mk2 on there trains with opening windows. I agree mk2 d/f with the sealed windows a waste for the journey though. Early model mk2 had the dynamo but was removed from later mk2 as by then diesel/electric around to provide the power that the dynamo provided in steam days. So providing mk2 like vintage trains then is ok
If we're going to talk about changing Flying Scotsman livery, I know that Nigel absolutely _loved_ the Golden Ochre livery we originally painted 31563 in when it first ran in preservation.
You just can't help yourself, can you Jon?! I say again that there was a very good reason who only one locomotive was ever painted in golden ochre and you only have to see 31563 to understand why! Always good to hear from you my friend and I hope our paths cross for real afore too long!
Imagine how good she would look in apple green. Surely she cannot just be in Brunswick green for the remainder of her ticket as I think that would be a missed opportunity to paint her Apple green. Regarding the chimney maybe we could see her back in Apple green like she was in the 1990s/2000s with double chimney in smoke deflectors? I know she would be not at all authentic but just something different.
Can she run with a double chimney without the smoke deflectors in apple green? Not sure how authentic it would be and whether the chimney would cause smoke issues without the deflectors
@@dasy2k1 I don’t think they will allow it for safety of the crew to have her without the smoke deflectors. But I think maybe for the last two years of her ticket it would be nice to see her in apple green
It's all about value for customers with open access, the price difference between LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central Doncaster and London Kings Cross is eyewatering. Open access train operators don't run as often as the major operators. Shame that Open Access only runs on the prime routes at present.
@@IBLRG OK, so if I told you your train tickets would cost you £10 less but (without necessarily telling you) your tax contribution to rail fares had gone up £20 you'd be OK with that? After all, your tickets have got cheaper so you have got the value for money on the direct purchase you desire?
@@GreenSignals Yes, because that's how the mine works. Say you have two supermarkets next to each other, one of the supermarkets charges you to park and the other doesn't, the one that charges you to park offers an item that you want cheaper than the supermarket that doesn't, 9 out of 10 times customers will go to the place where the price is cheap, even if you have to pay an excess.
@@IBLRGIn your example, the consumer is making a rational (or in your specific example, irrational) decision but is bearing all the economic costs of that decision. That's fine. In Open Access though that is absolutely not the case. Consumers are making rational decisions and gaining the economic benefit of them, but someone else (the taxpayer) is picking up a differential cost that is consequent on that consumer's decision. That's indirect subsidy and as a taxpayer, I would want that clearly understood and factored into the model. If then the consumer makes a decision to choose OA over non OA, but the taxpayer is completely indifferent to which they choose, that's fine. Not the case at the moment, or at least not when we start talking scale.
With regards to those saying Flying Scotsman HAS to have double funnels to run on the mainline, consider this. It ran successfully in Australia for over a year running over far more demanding terrain than exists in the UK while single funnel fitted.
Indeed, it has been considered! The issue in the UK is not really terrain, it’s having to keep up with tight sectional running times on a highly congested network when disruption can have severe effects. Why would you ever detune in such circumstances? Makes no sense.
@GreenSignals tight timings is a problem for mainline heritage operators world wide, no alterations to a locomotive is going to make that go away. Maybe some less ambitious schedules is what's really needed, as I notice there is a few Locomotives with 60 Mph top speed that can still be accommodated on the national Network. I'd also like to point out nothing about heritage operations really makes sense, it only gets done because people want it.
Great to hear the Ecclesboure getting a mention the track work they have just done looked like Stirling work my Good friend Tom Tait has been providing regular updates on his facebook posts
Really not sure how the addition of two smoke deflectors turns something from being lovely to being an awful piece of junk. A but over dramatic perhaps?
The Sheffield - Kings Cross service has not been properly thought out. Car parking at Woodhouse and Worksop is either inadequate or non existent. The length of the platforms will limit the size of the units that can be used. The Harwich Boat Train used to pull up twice at Worksop - many hours spent at the level crossing to open when this train came through. Because of the layout at Retford only platform 2 can be be used in either direction. The units will make a lot of noise going round Whisker Hill curve and might have difficulty with adhesion in the leaf fall season. You forget Flying Scotsman was numbered 1472 when it first came out of Doncaster. F S should really be in a museum. Would you want your 100 year old grandma operating at the speeds F S does. Class 40s. if they were that good why they so quickly replaced by Class 50s and then full electrification to Glasgow. They should have built some more Peaks instead of so many 40s. Peaks operated over the Settle and Carlisle so Shap should not have been a problem. When you saw a Peak at Sheffield at the front of a train you knew they were off on a grand adventure. Not a clue with the quiz. Someting to do with the Somerset and Dorset?
Ah, the 40s. I agree - underpowered and those bogies didn't help. But oh, the noise. I could forgive them anything for that. Just a bit of nostalgia really...... PS - I wouldn't want my Grandma at any age driving me around at the speeds FS does. Terrifying thought.
Your 90 year old grandma has 90 year old legs, heart and lungs, and 90 year old skin. The FS had had so much replaced over the years, she's probably in a better running condition now than her last year's in BR service!
The Flying Scotsman has always had bad press , with one chiefly being how much money was was given from the government to put it back into shape initially , and also saying (a bit like triggers broom in only fools and horses ,) , that not much of the original loco is left , well the same could be said for lots of other locomotives as well , Sir Nigel Gresley , having recently returned to the rails having been , in lots of cases rebuilt and no doubt new parts made , it’s considered an icon , and (even though city of Truro is claimed to break the 100mph barrier ) Flying Scotsman has been officially credited as to the first steam loco to reach 100mph . It makes no sense to convert it back to a single chimney , even though I don’t like the German smoke deflectors , it’s considered as part of its shape now . with a mention of famous trains I always thought it a shame that the Duchess of Hamilton wasn’t brought back to steam having been converted back to its streamlined shape ..
It represents a lot of things to a lot of people: The great Sir N Gresley, a wonderful class of his engines and a great named train, the name of which it happens to share. You know what happens when something catches the eye/ear of that public lot. "Thomas the Tank" (sic) is another example
A3 could replace an unavailable Deltic? Really? I find that a more interesting snippet you threw in our direction, Nigel, than the question of whether to un-improve the loco simply for looks. Find it difficult to believe 6 A3 wheels could begin to match the power output of 12 Deltic ones! - simply getting the train moving in the first place, let alone match the Deltic's high-speed power output with its legendary liability to suffer wheelslip at 80mph!
PNT told me that a Kylchap A3 was 'capable of filling in for a Deltic' and that's good enough for me! Likewise the late John Bellwood was fond of sharing that the large Ivan 'Atlantics" were likewise capable of subbing for a Gresley 'Pacific" after they were fitted with superheaters. During the First World War they were credited with hauling 20 coach trains from KX, ISTR....
@@nigelharris6873 Don't forget the diesel timings were gradually improved with further trackwork etc proceeding throughout the career of the deltics in the 70s. I also doubt an A3 would have been able to fulfil a deltic diagram of (say) 1980 with any great success, but within the constraints of the early 60s, on the occasions they were called upon to substitute, they achieved remarkable performance, equal to anything ever demanded routinely before, right until the very end. Another PNT observation was that once Kylchap fitted, an A3 was interchangeable with an A4. Although the A4s were allocated to the most important trains, if an A3 had to drop on instead, operators had little to worry about.
I would argue that open access operations are good for the travelling public because they get a better choice (and usually a cheaper fare), people like to have options and don't always go with the flow, one criticism of this vlog would be, it's not long enough, like some of our trains, cheers
I know Craig, but indirect or cross subsidy is never a good thing (I'm not just talking about open Access by the way) and the taxpayer pays that. And since the taxpayer pays more than the farepayer for today's railway, they are a relevant factor.
Scotsman being potentially derated to a single chimney, in my opinion, goes back to those, if you'll excuse me, armchair experts and foamers, who argue that Scotsman in its current form is ugly. They want to see her in something resembling her original form in apple green. Folks apparently don't like the smoke deflectors and the BR green. Wilbert Awdry, author of the Railway Series, apparently wasn't a fan of seeing A3s with the double exhaust and smoke deflectors either as evidenced during Scotsman's visit to see Gordon when he referred to his rebuild into an A3 as looking "horrid" and Pegler's subsequent conversion back to single exhaust with no smoke deflectors as being given back his "proper shape" (certainly showing the hand of the author there). The argument boils down to "I don't like the way it looks," akin to a petulant child's short-sighted tantrum. I'd disagree, though. I'm apparently the weird one that likes the deflectors. It gives it a unique look. On top of that, they're functional. Sure the double exhaust transformed the A3's performance but it softened the blast from the chimney and allowed smoke to drift into the driver's view so the smoke lifters had to be added to lift smoke away from the driver's view and allow a clearer view while operating the locomotive. If you want to see Scotsman at her best then she MUST have her double exhaust and likewise MUST have the smoke deflectors. And remember Scotsman was not converted to an A3 until after the start of BR and even still would have been considered an A10, being converted after the discovery of the benefits of the double exhaust and deflectors. She is an A3 and to make her an A3 sans deflectors wearing apple green would put her in a fictitious state that only existed during Pegler's tenure with her. Further downrating her to an A1 when she would have historically worn apple green with a single exhaust is not feasible. Here in the States we might not have the prettiest steam locomotives compared to British ones, but they make up for it in performance. Same for Scotsman in her current form. Some folks might not like its looks, but she's stronger, faster, and healthier for it. For preservation's sake being in her current states means she doesn't have to work as hard to give good performance on the mainline. Downgrading that exhaust to single chimney makes her weaker and slower and she won't raise steam as well. She'll have to work harder, wearing out her parts faster increasing maintenance costs, she'll have to use more coal during a time when coal is getting harder and more expensive to obtain increasing the operating costs and making more work for the crew, and with her lack of power she'll take more time getting up to speed limiting whatever time slots available for excursions even further meaning she'll run on the mainline less frequently and the rides will be longer. It makes absolutely no logical sense to run her on a single exhaust. If you want Scotsman in Apple Green with single exhaust you have model trains and several simulators featuring her that way. Be satisfied with those, foamers and man children. The real world requires Scotsman to be at her best with the double exhaust and the smoke deflectors.
My late father Peter Townend, former shed master at Kings Cross, was instrumental in getting the improved exhaust and smoke deflectors fitted to the A3s. Right at the very end of steam as the whole timetable was being accelerated, the pacifics were all putting in regular daily performance equal to the very best they had ever achieved, sometimes deputising on diesel diagrams without delays in the difficult changeover period. That they were able to do so sometimes with irregular and less experienced crews and variable coal quality was very much down to the dramatically improved performance of the 'racing exhaust' that is the double Kylchap. If the loco's future was stuffed and mounted in the museum or only steaming on heritage lines, then a single chimney would likely be fine. Rationally, on the mainline steam needs all the help it can get and FS must perform at its very best to keep up so I assert it needs the Kylchap and hence also the deflectors for safe forward visibility.
Apapa once worked an East Lancs Railway charter to Gourock in the early 70s and disgraced itself by failing at Carlisle with the train straddling the southbound approach. I don't recall what the rescue arrangements were but I fancy we were a bit late back into Accy. It was a grand day out though with the included Clyde cruise being forsaken in favour of a bit of shed bashing round Glasgow.
Appreciate you checking on how to pronounce Leven, just shows you can't always trust online sources as many are American biased. Good news is that Leven trains have been very busy in the first week with even some overcrowding! Worrying news about Flying Scotsman, hope its back on the track soon. Interesting Jacobite news but still crazy for the Mk 1 coaches. The Lumo guy was good but Lumo does not serve places off the main line, one of the arguments for Hull and Grand Central. I thought the ECML power upgrade was a committed scheme, what is delaying it? Interesting you didn't mention safety as open access trains oversped twice at Peterborough, was this in any way a symptom of their fast track driver training schemes? Love seeing so many trains now between Newcastle and Edinburgh, a line Serpell wanted to close! For the quiz I think John Betjeman about destruction of Euston Arch.
Thanks Allan. Pronunciation is always a challenge for people from Burnley, whereas those of us from Blackburn of course.......! Martijn was brilliant wasn't he? I think there have been some amends to the ECML upgrade including power but it's a good question so we'll have a look. Thanks re the quiz answer. Tune in next week to find out who has won!
5 million restoration of 4472, that was public money. Yes, it,s iconic etc, etc but at that cost should have been sent to the NRM for static display, like City of Birmingham.
Single chimney arrangements can probably be at least as efficient as the double chimney/Kylchap arrangement, drawing on subsequent work by Porta and, recently, Koopman. It is worth exploring. The Lempor exhaust is, as far as I know, a single chimney arrangement. Koopman developed a 5- or 7-jet arrangement.
@@nigelharris6873 Hahaha. They will need half a dozen to represent all the different variations the loco went through. The double chimney is hardly visible.
Could not agree with you more regarding F.S.. Smoke deflectors=Brunswick Green =60103. And speaking of second to none, your tribute to the late Peter Townend is mandatory watching.
Thanks Andy. Nigel and Stef did do a brilliant job with the Peter Townend tribute - what an incredible guy he was.
Because it looks nicer in single chimney form as the first pacific built by the LNER. All it’s most famous achievements were when in LNER livery.
Hmm. I do think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As to famous exploits, you're right in terms of the public ones but Peter Townend was very clear that it's contribution to the railway towards the end of steam (as with the other A3s) was critical whilst diesels were being introduced and would not have been possible with the conversion.
I love Gresley A3's in any format but 103 is in its most efficient mode now and we have to remember with the environment pressures we should burn fossil fuels efficiently. Not forgetting the cost of coal, any savings must be considered. Personally, I like the current setup, at 69 years old its how I remember them.
I was really happy when I saw that the NRM had outshopped The Flying Scotsman as she was when BR retired her (Brunswick green, Kylchap exhaust, German smoke deflectors etc.) I strongly agree with your comments.
The final product was the acme of the original A1 design that had evolved through years of operational use. In its last years, the Flying Scotsman, and her updated siblings, could take over Deltic diesel duties (breakdowns!) and keep time. Just the sort of engine that has a good chance of being able to continue to run on our modern railways.
It is notable that when Alan Pegler bought the Flying Scotsman (Thank you Alan), he had the engine modified so it looked close to how it had looked in the mid 1930s. He had every right to enjoy putting his personal preferences into practice, since he saved the engine by buying it. Because his achievement was great, this particular look left a great impression with the general public. This has been further reinforced by the passage of time, which seems to have given this particular look a stamp of 'authenticity.'
An operational steam engine is not totally removed from an 'Irish hammer'. For example: - the Flying Scotsman has had 3 different class classifications (A1, A10, A3), 3 different styles of dome, 3 different types of chimney, 4 different liveries, different numbers (1472, 4472, 502, 103, E103, 60103), 8 or 9 different tenders and well over 10 different boilers.
In order to be authentic are we going to go back to the short travel valves of the originals and use the same metals for the valve pistons etc? It didn't take more than a few years for Sir Nigel Gresley to realize that longer valve travel was needed. If we restored the valves/valve events back to the original specs, we'd have a ham strung inefficient machine that would struggle to keep time, nothing like the mid-1930s machine (Although this had to be thrashed to reach 100mph even with an ultra light load) and a far cry from the far more efficient, free running and powerful 1960s machine.
Here is a worthwhile thought-provoking article on the topic of conservation/preservation/restoration >> journal.sciencemuseum.ac.uk/article/flying-scotsman/#abstract
Rather than choose some particular point in the evolution of the engine, I think that deciding to outshop the loco in its most advanced operational stage is better and, overall, leaves less room for debate and untethered nostalgia. Anyway, I love to see the final version powering along the rails. It's a great tribute to the collective efforts of the LNER/BR steam engineers of the 1920s to 1960s.
Thank you for such a considered comment. Enjoyed reading that.
And also the article you included the link to which as you say is a really through provoking piece.
@@GreenSignals Let me return the compliment. Really enjoy the cut and thrust of your channel. Although I've been a bit slack recently, I enjoy posting a wide range of things on TH-cam. I think you'll find my last vid, about the first run of the Silver Jubilee, interesting ....... th-cam.com/video/uLuLrIDbSJg/w-d-xo.html Sad to say, I missed the 88/9 trip of FS to Alice Springs as I was stuck out bush and couldn't get into town!!!
I don't always agree with you, but I enjoy the talking points you raise, keep up the good work, there is nothing wrong with a lively debate.
Cheers Tim! We always try and be balanced and fair, but we understand that not everyone will agree. But as long as we have a good debate, that's the main thing! Cheers. Richard
I would personally quite like to see Flying Scotsman in LNER form, not least because there's just so many locos in BR livery, but it would make sense to keep the loco in a form most fit for the best possible for mainline performance, and it does have a very unique appearance in BR form with the German smoke deflectors.
Very sensible!
In regards to the Flying Scotsman livery/single chimney vs double chimney argument, I guessing the reason why it's being considered going back to single chimney is being considered is because it you look all the significant great things that F.S has done...
• First locomotive to non stop from Kings Cross to Edinburgh.
• First steam locomotive to achieve 100mph.
• Staring in a film of the same name.
• Being the only steam locomotive allowed to run on BR.
• Appearing in the Railway series books.
• Going to America.
• Appearing at Rail 150.
• Appearing at Rocket 150.
• Going to Australia.
• The first steam locomotive to travel on the central Australia railway.
• Setting the longest non stop run by a steam locomotive (422 miles).
• Becoming the first steam locomotive to circumnavigate the globe.
What all these things have in common is that she is was in single chimney form and painted in LNER Apple Green on every single one of these occasions, hence that's how she's been globally recognised and depicted in popular culture. Flying Scotsman has never achieved anything of any great significance when in double chimney form when painted in BR colours, which is probably why going back to double chimney form and BR colours in the 1990s upset a ton of people.
It's a bit like when a certain type of clothing becomes part of a certain celebrity or personalities identity.
They are all good points Callum. But the reality is we have the railway in 2024 and performance management when running steam trains intermingled with 125 mile/h sets is a different kind of challenge. It is vital that FS performs as best she can - and that will be delivered in her current form.
Maybe the best compromise is (as others have suggested) we run her as she is now whilst she's got a mainline ticket and when the day comes as it inevitably will that she becomes a static exhibit, she is returned to as built condition then?
@@GreenSignals Thank you for responding to my comment, much appreciated. 😊
I think however I can provide some counter arguments to the points you raise..
On the subject of performance, steam locomotives on Network Rail are restricted to 75mph* anyway which was cruising speed for a Gresley A1 let alone a Gresley A3. Also the majority of steam tours nowadays have a diesel on the back as a tailgunner to provide assistance when required anyway, as well as providing ETS and to assist with shunting manoeuvres.
Another factor to take in to account when measuring locomotive performance is coal quality (the burning question). Now granted, a double chimney A3 will out perform a single one on low grade coal that is little better than dust, however with good quality coal the differences can be marginal.
When Flying Scotsman was in the United States (in single chimney form at the time) there was some initial concern over the quality of coal they'd encounter on that side of the pond. However when tried on anthracite coal from Virginia (specifically West Virginia) she's said to have performed really well. It was to quote Alan Pleger "Not all that dissimilar to the Yorkshire variety" which the A3s were designed to burn.
*60163 'Tornado' being the exception
@@callumthornelow2936 I think it unwise to assume high quality coal will always be available to guarantee performance on every mainline trip. With a Kylchap a wider variety of coal can produce more predictable results.
The loco's designer became a great fan of the Kychap exhaust only a few years later, after seeing the phenomenal increase in output achieved by Chapelon's rebuilds in France. I am sure more LNER locos would have been fitted pre-WW2 if not for the very high license and consultancy fees demanded by the patent holder and their UK agents, amounting to some 10% of the construction costs of an entire new loco at the time. Of course everyone also knew the patent was about to expire, which it did during WW2, allowing Thomson to use the exhaust freely for his rebuilds and new constructions, followed by Peppercorn on the A1s.
Gresley was aware of the forward visibility problems of the softer exhaust, which is why various designs of smoke deflecting apparatus were tried (once again) on Humorist when it became the only A3 with a Kylchap in 1937. The deflector design settled on for that loco eventually became a template for later Peppercorn locos.
If the A3s had not recieved Kylchaps post war they might have had double chimney anyway, along with the A4s, to the 'Swindon proportions' being used on BR standards. That was the BRB preference at the time and a serious proposal in the early 1950s until L.P. Parker got dad on the case to argue for the proven Kylchap solution instead.
I’ve used Grand Central several times from Hartlepool to Sunderland then Metro to Newcastle instead of Northern because of the overcrowding and short formed trains of Northern. I doubt I’m the only one despite GC reliability issues.
Thanks Ben. A bit of lateral thinking on the journey planning front!
@@GreenSignals if they get their stop at Seaham approved I’d imagine there will be far more people doing the same thing at weekends, a lot of people get left on platforms by the Newcastle, Carlisle and Hexham trains.
Happy to contribute. It is better value than a magazine! You are both clearly passionate about the industry and take time to engage with your audience.
Thanks Stephen. That's so kind. Hope you enjoy the shout out on this week's show (Thursday 20th!)
Regarding the open access operators getting a 'helping hand' in the first 4 years with reduced access charges, is that not the same as new retailers sometimes getting rental subsidies, etc for a period of time when setting up, in order to help with the start up costs and whilst the business gets going? It could be argued that anything a new retailer negotiates is 'unfair' to existing retailers too? Also, and sorry to ask again, how is the investigation into whether Huw Merrimans claims were 100% truthful, going?
Answer to quiz: Quoted by Gavin Stamp about the destruction of the Euston Station Arch.
Thanks! Tune in next week to see who won!
Class 40 or type 4 English Electric. A lovely locomotive to work on as a driver. But were about 500 hp underpowered for a lot of the trains they were timetabled haul!
Thanks Chris. Bet you have a few wonderful anecdotes and tales to tell!
Green signals just gets better each week guys 👍🏻
You're too kind! We love the fact that people love it!
I did Edinburgh to Kings Cross. It was awful. The Azuma seats are bad for my circulation whereas Pendolino seats are superb.
Interesting feedback, thanks. I did try out the new Hitachi seats on the Avanti West Coast AT300 sets and they were excellent. Perhaps a case for retro fitting?
Martijn Gilbert has hit so many nails on the head here, and I look forward to seeing the full interview. Open Access operators are bringing genuine competition to any routes where there is actually a choice of operator for the customer. This cannot happen under the standard route/regional franchise system. Subject to ironing out the way that operators pay for track access and other charges, which will surely have to come, this has to be one of the major catalysts for growing the railways. Bring on the day when a customer can choose Lumo, as an example, to travel North from London to somewhere else, and return, without having to suffer the cost and difficulties associated with, as another example travelling on a long electric unit which is likely to be cancelled, delayed, not correctly staffed, etc., etc. Abstraction will hurt all those who turn their backs on their customers.
I'm afraid that if the abstraction is material, then it does not hurt those who turn their backs on customers because they are on management contracts. It is the taxpayer who pays.
@@GreenSignals Yes, but surely continued poor performance will lead to loss of franchise? I think we are agreed that that there is one major London-Scotland operator doing a good job at present. I do readily acknowledge that I don't always follow exactly what's going on, however, so I happily stand to be corrected again.
The competition is with air and road, open access takes up valuable paths, the sooner people realise that the better, I would get rid of them tomorrow if it was down to me
@@vlt14 If the paths were so valuable why don't the franchised operators run full length trains all the time?
I do feel it slightly odd a podcaster digging into the detail of the cost to the public of, eg Open Access. Isn't the measure the service level, not what it costs me, the tax payer. Let the competitors argue that one.
Surely in a world of climate change and spiraling costs, you'd want to run a steam locomotive in the most fuel efficient configuration possible?
Quite.
And now we're in heated agreement,Jon...!
It would be very wrong to refit a single chimney to 60103. The condition she is in now is that remembered by most of us still alive in the UK who followed railways in the 1950s and 1960s. It should be also pointed out that Nigel Gresley intended to fit Kylchap exhausts to all the Pacitics and V2s but his plans were thwarted by WW2 and his death.
An interesting perspective and I think, quite sensible.
Very good show just found it !
You’re most welcome Darren. Glad you’ve found us!!
You have prodded a wasps nest on the livery of Flying Scotsman... irrespective of single or double chimney. I am fed up seeing BORING BR green and black on iconic locos. Bring back Apple Green for LNER locos, Crimson Lake for LMS locos and so on.
I am so sick of the nonsense of fitting central locking to Mark 1 coaches. You can't fall out of them by accident! They are vintage vehicles and should not be changed. Its about time this was understood.
Well, I suspect livery is a matter of taste. Personally, I love BR Brunswick Green. You love Apple Green. That's great - we both like something different. Neither of us is right or wrong. Just different.
As for slam door stock though, we will have to disagree. If you look at the stats, it would appear there were a significant number of fatalities involving hinged door rolling stock, both on platform and on train, prior to the regulations changing. You are right that they are vintage vehicles. That does not mean we carry on running them accepting the same level of risk.
In regards to Flying Scotsman, I personally think that the NRM SHOULD repaint her back into LNER Apple Green and convert her back into single chimney. I have the upmost respect for Peter Townend, and the smoke deflectors and double chimney were indeed improvements to the performance of the A3s, but it if you ask me, the fact that she operated for a single chimney for the first 30 years of her preservation life cannot and should not be overlooked (may we also remember that she set the world record for longest distance ever travelled by a steam locomotive, and also pulled a 735-ton loaded train for part of said journey), and while I agree her prewar Apple Green livery isn’t historically authentic for her mechanical condition as an A3, considering how long she carried her various fictional forms of the livery from the ‘60s to ‘90s, why should they not be counted as part of her history?
I appreciate both you lovely gents would have seen BR Green as it was worn by service stock (say, an occasional Class 40 which never got BR blue perhaps) but Nigel did perpetuate the myth that the colour is known as Brunswick green. Whilst both preservation societies and model railway manufacturers keep referring to the scheme as "Brunswick Green", that identification was an error perpetuated by railway modellers of the 50s who were told to substitute the actual Deep Bronze Green, as it was actually named, with the GWR's green as it was available from your enamel paint brand of choice.
I'm sorry to sound so awfully pedantic, but in an age where we have accepted Lion and Locomotion did not look the way they do now and even Flying Scotsman herself is disputed to be an original machine, we might want to let the mistakes of the 50s behind us.
I must confess my memories of green diesels are quite limited to the odd 20, 47 and of course 40106. Fascinating info re Brunswick Green though - thanks!
Perhaps WCR are concerned about spending a load of money fitting CDL to their Mk1s and ORR turning round in a couple of years and saying "no more Mk1s on the mainline as they are not crashworthy".
Maybe WCR want a guarantee from ORR that if they invest in Mk1 CDL, they will be able to run the stock on the main line for, say ten years.
That would explain why they ARE fitting CDL to Mk2s, which can expect a fair few main line years ahead of them, but holding off with Mk1s for fear they will be banned from the main line before WCR have recouped any CDL investment on them.
I don't think we will know the full story until the ORR decision is made public - but you can be sure we will cover it in detail on Green Signals!
Unfortunately West Coast Railways have blagged it too long for central door locking and thought ORR would succumb.. sorry guys
While we are lucky enough to have Flying Scotsman running on the mainline, as a conserved working machine, let's focus on the "working" aspect and keep the current choices of optimised chimney, livery etc. Sadly a time will come when Flying Scotsman might be obliged to give up mainline work due to age (or regulations!) and become a museum-piece (or be relegated to heritage line work) and that would be the time to restore to "as built" configuration (performance would be largely irrelevant) and revert to original livery at that time. This two-phase approach would be the best of both worlds and go a long way to keep everybody happy.
That sounds remarkably sensible to me......
Maybe in your opinion but Mallard is the world's most famous team engine search it's in York at the moment it should be on the rails. And in it's livery was it Brunswick green or British rail green. Never been keen on the blue.
Just look at the duchess class. Beautiful engineering and design
I was there at Holbeck sheds in Leeds Copley hill Neville hill family in the late 50s early 60s cabin all the engines in the sheds so many of A4 class. Show elegant. I saw flying Scotsman in service but I was never impressed with it.
I found it very interested in listening to you too guys. Even though I don't agree with everything you're saying. Especially promoting flying Scotsman above everything else.
No no no the flying Scotsman is not the world's most famous steam engine. It's Mallard they should spend money getting Mallard back on the rails. I started trainspotting in the 1950s so I've seen the erection of a lot of these steam engines. I get sick of people saying the flying Scotsman this the flying Scotsmanthat. There are far more elegance steam engines than the flying Scotsman Britain built and design some of the most elegant sedum engines in the world. And we're looking up to have some left to appreciate. Most people who sell the flying Scotsman is the world's most famous steam engine. I bet they won't even trainspotters from the 50s up to now. Just jumped on the bandwagon of everyone seen the flying Scotsman is the best steam train in the world. This is my personal opinion. I'm not rude about it I'm just putting my opinion forward.
Great video as always and, as a working volunteer, thank you for the item on the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway and your supportive comments; I think everyone involved with the railway is very much relieved to get back into Duffield station.
An absolute pleasure Chris. A lovely railway and on the day of my visit to drive the DMU, the volunteers could not have been more accommodating.
Another cracking show guys and Richard impressed with a nice piece of 40 035. Fully agree with you on Flying Scotsman. It only became a A3 later in its life and if anything its a lovely example of the improvements made to steam to improve performance of operation so its fitting it runs in its present form as LNER and BR intended. Worthy of preservation for that alone. I'll keep a look out for the full interview on open access operators. The short version was very informative.
CDL was looked into as part of a project for life extension of the Mark 1 EMU fleet. There are several relatively simple and inexpensive solutions. Fitting solenoid latches to the simple narrow hinged doors on these vehicles should not be an issue.
Absolutely. The only potential issue is fitting it with both air and vacuum brake compatibility
@@dasy2k1
I thought most Mark 1 stock was dual-braked quite soon after BR adopted air brakes as standard.
Reluctance to deal with the locking issue was one of the reasons for the premature withdrawal of the mark 1 EMU fleet, much of which dated from the mid 1970s and should have remained in service until 2020 - 15 to 20 years' life was lost, with corresponding unnecessary costs.
@@physiocrat7143 most Mk1 stock that is in use on the mainline is.
But most CDL systems require air brakes to function. (the emergency release mechanism needs to also vent the brakes and some systems use the air to actually drive the lock bolts)
It can't be hard to make the emergency release vent both air and vacuum pipes but it would need to be a solenoid powered bolt I guess
@@dasy2k1
Sounds unnecessary complicated. Mark 1 stock was built with a 24 V electrical system and then 1000V supply was added for ETH. Plenty of power to drive a little solenoid. Some means would have to be devised to send a signal to switch on the solenoid and release the bolts.
Watched a couple of your vids now and very much enjoyed them. Just subscribed. On FS, the new "arrangement" sounds rather nebulous, but then the NRM seem to do some very odd things, like scrapping the workshop for a play area? Seems other museums are losing sight of their purpose in favour of getting more people through the doors, which needs addressing by having more enthusiasts and practical/engineering people at the top. Keep the double chimney, it's best for performance, and that's what she's made to do on the mainline. The smoke deflectors are not particularly pretty, but again, if that's how she runs best then so be it. Keep up the good work!
Thanks! So glad you love the show.
Suspect it’s a real tightrope to manage for museums and similar institutions. Funding is such a challenge so one can see why they do have to focus on commercial income generation as well.
I can see no reason why you can't paint Flying Scotsman in any colour you like. Keep the mods if they make it run better. If the LNER had existed in the 1960s it would have made the changes and probably kept the right shade of green.
Personally i think it looks rather splendid exactly as it is today. Double Chimney, funny little smoke detectors (which I am told work really well) and Brunswick Green.
@@GreenSignals Many may I agree with you, but then you don't have the exclusive right to be wrong.🤪
Flanders and Swann probably
An interesting, if left field, answer!
Nigel your comments On Scotsman are as I have come to expect from you Spot On Sir
The only logical reason I can fathom for converting back to the original exhausting arrangement would be to de rate the performance to prevent excessive wear ,in much the same way as the Western Region of BR did with the class 52 Western Diesels back in the day.
Strikes me as a
somewhat foolish idea !..
Oh, you have no idea how happy that will make Nigel....!
Which in itself Richard,is a very good thing ,no one wants a grumpy Nigel....
Regarding Flying Scotsman, I agree completely with Nigel- Double chimney, German pattern smoke deflectors and BR Brunswick Green. I find the change of its custodian contract very unusual, to put it mildly. It seems almost like the award of a shipping contract during the pandemic to a company which didn't have ships!
Ecclesbourne Valley Railway- great news about a very nice line. I loved it.
As for the quiz, I immediately thought of John Betjeman and the Euston Arch, but I can't find any actual quote by him using the words "malice and philistinism". What I did find was a quote in the "Architectural Review" accusing the government of "Apathy and Philistinism"
(I personally would have used the words about Thompson's rebuild of Gresley's "Great Northern).
Thanks Mervyn. Nigel will be happy!
Interesting episode as always.
The flying scotsman contract is Interesting to me. The question of who the operator would be is an interesting debate. I did wonder if Loco services limited might get involved with it. Otherwise its going to get caught up with the West coast CDL issue.
For what it's worth I think the livery debate is not necessary. The answer for me is if they wanted to use LNER livery on Flying Scotsman just paint it Apple green and take the smoke deflectors off. Keep the doubble chimney and the better performance. Half way house I know but not a bad option
I suspect you will get the purists really excited (!) with that suggestion!
Just one phrase springs to mind - signal sighting. Driver concerns led to deflectors being introduced. They appeared in many late powerful express designs in one form or another either from new or by retrofit. The A4 front wedge shape proved excellent at lifting the entire exhaust plume clear of the cab and train at speed, as were the Witte style deflectors fitted latterly to A3s. They have a different action to that of traditional vertical sheet deflectors, which aim to create a fast smooth laminar flow of air from in front of the chimney along the boiler, through which a smoke-free forward view should be available, but do not typically attempt to lift the plume. The rising lower edge with the fold-under of the Witte 'scoops' some of that forward air and directs it upwards, creating a rising current that carries the plume. Dad saw the design in action from the cab on a professional visit to Germany in the 1950s. DB were using the design widely on new builds and retofitting prewar locos, and the list included many slower locos used on freight and secondary lines which were by no means fast duties. Dad came away with the impression DB was delighted with the design and had cab experience on express duties to back that up. So when visibility became a hot issue as the Kylchaps were rolled out, Dad suggested trying the German style deflector, sending Doncaster a side photo of a DB BR 01 pacific at Koeln Hbf. To his enormous surprise, management said yes, the drawing office produced a drawing, and the plant set about making prototypes within weeks.
@@marktownend8065 a fantastic addition they were too. I have the highest respect for your dad and his achievements. Being a big fan of North Eastern pacifics. I'am not trying to say the deflectors are not needed. Just wondered if it could work with the doubble chimney retained but the deflectors removed as it ran in thr late 1990s in LNER livery.
I guess the bottom line is that its a restored A3 pacific running on the mainline in 2024 which is good enough for me.
Another fab episode. Don't know the answer to the quiz so I'll just guess at. John Betjeman's response to the demolition of Euston's Doric Arch
Thanks - glad you enjoyed the show! As for the quiz, tune in to the next show on 20th to hear the answer and the winner.
Keep the Scotsman double chimney as she is. That’s the best for the modern world while preserving her heritage. Looks better double chimney anyway.
Another great episode guys, but what on earth is happening with the Jacobite? More confusion!
Looking forward to the full interview on Monday too. All the best, Timmo
Cheers! Just edited the full interview and it's great!
I must say that Richard has excellent taste in Italian bikes.
On that point, 'Flying Scotsman' is not - and cannot be in 1960s condition simply because it has modern fittings such as AWS, TPWS, OTMR. So on that basis, brunswick green is as wrong a livery as LNER green or anything else historical. Therefore, I propose Bianchi Celeste would be a truly historic colour and generate much publicity.
Now then. That’s an excellent idea.
Having said that, my Bianchi Specialissima (with Campagnolo Record and Campag Bora wheels 😬) is not in Celeste but something that approximates to Brunswick Green.
So it’s all a bit tricky!!!
also the ICC is net off abstraction for the purposes of the NPA test! So it helps OA meet the 30p in the £ bar.
Thanks Colin!
Keep Flying Scotsman as it is j reckon ! Don't muck about with it.
That does seem a popular view Darren although we have seen no shortage of folks wanting to see it restored to original condition…..!
John Betjeman and the Euston Arch
Find out if you're right on the next show!
Keep Scotty as she is ,as last ran butb when her time comes for static display THEN put her back to LNER standard ,single chimney , round dome etc' that would make more sense
That's not a bad shout!
@@GreenSignals Yep i think it's a great idea ,that way all bases are covered ,ask this idea in a future cast if possible please .
I really can’t see why the public are so fascinated by the Flying Scotsman. When it’s all boiled down, it’s nothing more than an everyday steam locomotive.
well the fuss is that this is the first steam locomotive to go 100 mph and almost steam locomotive cant go to that speed
Great Episode as always
Quiz Guess: Was it Sir John Betjeman in regards to the Euston Arch?
You shall have to tune in next time to find out!
How about some love towards the Jacobite and West Coast. Too much negativity towards them
They have done a terrific job marketing the Jacobite over the years. Chapeau to that.
But our job is to reflect the facts as we see them , although we will always be balanced. Anything else would be unfair.
John Betjeman, demolition of Euston Arch
Thanks - listen in next week to hear the correct answer and who has won!
More regarding the Jacobite! This morning a full rake of CDL stock was taken from Steamtown to tom na faire/ Fort William. 3 MK2 TSOs (one being Mk2a, the others Aircon), a MK1 RMB and an Aircon MK2 FO.
One thing about using MkIIs on the Jacobite and other steam specials. Who wants to travel on such a train when you have no chance to hear the steam loco working hard at the head end. A none starter for me...
Fair point.
Really depends upon which mk2 looking at. The reason for the mk1/Mk2 rake that they used was the CDL needed power which was supplied by the dynamo on the mk1’s.
However early model mk2, mk2a had opening windows and vintage trains runs a rake of mk2 on there trains with opening windows.
I agree mk2 d/f with the sealed windows a waste for the journey though.
Early model mk2 had the dynamo but was removed from later mk2 as by then diesel/electric around to provide the power that the dynamo provided in steam days.
So providing mk2 like vintage trains then is ok
@@michaelmcnally2331 Also fair.....
If we're going to talk about changing Flying Scotsman livery, I know that Nigel absolutely _loved_ the Golden Ochre livery we originally painted 31563 in when it first ran in preservation.
I take it the tongue is firmly in cheek there but for what it's worth, I rather like Golden Ochre.....!
You just can't help yourself, can you Jon?! I say again that there was a very good reason who only one locomotive was ever painted in golden ochre and you only have to see 31563 to understand why! Always good to hear from you my friend and I hope our paths cross for real afore too long!
Richard needs to get on the tram from Manchester to Bury, so he can stop at Bowker Vale ! also The Flying Scotsman was refurbished at Bury.
Imagine how good she would look in apple green. Surely she cannot just be in Brunswick green for the remainder of her ticket as I think that would be a missed opportunity to paint her Apple green. Regarding the chimney maybe we could see her back in Apple green like she was in the 1990s/2000s with double chimney in smoke deflectors? I know she would be not at all authentic but just something different.
Can she run with a double chimney without the smoke deflectors in apple green?
Not sure how authentic it would be and whether the chimney would cause smoke issues without the deflectors
@@dasy2k1 I don’t think they will allow it for safety of the crew to have her without the smoke deflectors. But I think maybe for the last two years of her ticket it would be nice to see her in apple green
It's all about value for customers with open access, the price difference between LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central Doncaster and London Kings Cross is eyewatering.
Open access train operators don't run as often as the major operators.
Shame that Open Access only runs on the prime routes at present.
You're forgetting the cost of hidden subsidies. Taxpayers count too!
@@GreenSignalsto be honest I don't think the general public really care about that they are after value for money and reliability.
@@IBLRG OK, so if I told you your train tickets would cost you £10 less but (without necessarily telling you) your tax contribution to rail fares had gone up £20 you'd be OK with that? After all, your tickets have got cheaper so you have got the value for money on the direct purchase you desire?
@@GreenSignals Yes, because that's how the mine works.
Say you have two supermarkets next to each other, one of the supermarkets charges you to park and the other doesn't, the one that charges you to park offers an item that you want cheaper than the supermarket that doesn't, 9 out of 10 times customers will go to the place where the price is cheap, even if you have to pay an excess.
@@IBLRGIn your example, the consumer is making a rational (or in your specific example, irrational) decision but is bearing all the economic costs of that decision. That's fine.
In Open Access though that is absolutely not the case. Consumers are making rational decisions and gaining the economic benefit of them, but someone else (the taxpayer) is picking up a differential cost that is consequent on that consumer's decision.
That's indirect subsidy and as a taxpayer, I would want that clearly understood and factored into the model. If then the consumer makes a decision to choose OA over non OA, but the taxpayer is completely indifferent to which they choose, that's fine.
Not the case at the moment, or at least not when we start talking scale.
With regards to those saying Flying Scotsman HAS to have double funnels to run on the mainline, consider this. It ran successfully in Australia for over a year running over far more demanding terrain than exists in the UK while single funnel fitted.
Indeed, it has been considered! The issue in the UK is not really terrain, it’s having to keep up with tight sectional running times on a highly congested network when disruption can have severe effects. Why would you ever detune in such circumstances? Makes no sense.
@GreenSignals tight timings is a problem for mainline heritage operators world wide, no alterations to a locomotive is going to make that go away. Maybe some less ambitious schedules is what's really needed, as I notice there is a few Locomotives with 60 Mph top speed that can still be accommodated on the national Network. I'd also like to point out nothing about heritage operations really makes sense, it only gets done because people want it.
hi there, i would like 4472 to have a single chimmney and no smoke deflectors as it used to be,,,, looks far better
Great to hear the Ecclesboure getting a mention the track work they have just done looked like Stirling work my Good friend Tom Tait has been providing regular updates on his facebook posts
Leve the Smoke Gimle Egsorst
Quiz: Article in the "Architectural Reviewer" about the demolition of the Euston Arch
Listen in next time to find out if you're right!
Thanks!
Thanks so much - we really appreciate it!
I don't suppose Ezekiel 25 is the answer to the quiz. A bit before the railway's time...
You'll have to tune in next week to find out!
If they go back to single chimney will they also go back to short travel valves, and dispense with the robinson superheaters
I'll let Nigel comment on that. Sounds far too impressively technical for me! Richard
In its original condition Flying Scotsman was a lovely loco but now looks an awful piece of junk!
Really not sure how the addition of two smoke deflectors turns something from being lovely to being an awful piece of junk. A but over dramatic perhaps?
Looked up northern steam and The one company I saw deal with 7.5 “ gauge engines and traction engines.
They have done mainline as well.
The Sheffield - Kings Cross service has not been properly thought out. Car parking at Woodhouse and Worksop is either inadequate or non existent. The length of the platforms will limit the size of the units that can be used. The Harwich Boat Train used to pull up twice at Worksop - many hours spent at the level crossing to open when this train came through. Because of the layout at Retford only platform 2 can be be used in either direction. The units will make a lot of noise going round Whisker Hill curve and might have difficulty with adhesion in the leaf fall season.
You forget Flying Scotsman was numbered 1472 when it first came out of Doncaster. F S should really be in a museum. Would you want your 100 year old grandma operating at the speeds F S does.
Class 40s. if they were that good why they so quickly replaced by Class 50s and then full electrification to Glasgow. They should have built some more Peaks instead of so many 40s. Peaks operated over the Settle and Carlisle so Shap should not have been a problem. When you saw a Peak at Sheffield at the front of a train you knew they were off on a grand adventure.
Not a clue with the quiz. Someting to do with the Somerset and Dorset?
Or Beeching?
Ah, the 40s. I agree - underpowered and those bogies didn't help. But oh, the noise. I could forgive them anything for that. Just a bit of nostalgia really......
PS - I wouldn't want my Grandma at any age driving me around at the speeds FS does. Terrifying thought.
Your 90 year old grandma has 90 year old legs, heart and lungs, and 90 year old skin.
The FS had had so much replaced over the years, she's probably in a better running condition now than her last year's in BR service!
The Flying Scotsman has always had bad press , with one chiefly being how much money was was given from the government to put it back into shape initially , and also saying (a bit like triggers broom in only fools and horses ,) , that not much of the original loco is left , well the same could be said for lots of other locomotives as well , Sir Nigel Gresley , having recently returned to the rails having been , in lots of cases rebuilt and no doubt new parts made , it’s considered an icon , and (even though city of Truro is claimed to break the 100mph barrier ) Flying Scotsman has been officially credited as to the first steam loco to reach 100mph . It makes no sense to convert it back to a single chimney , even though I don’t like the German smoke deflectors , it’s considered as part of its shape now .
with a mention of famous trains I always thought it a shame that the Duchess of Hamilton wasn’t brought back to steam having been converted back to its streamlined shape ..
Thanks
Being honest, I've never seen the fascination in Flying Scotsman
I think a lot of people feel that way. Definitely a Marmite situation!
Its claim to fame is similar to that of the Mallard - first to achieve a speed record 🤷♂️.
It represents a lot of things to a lot of people: The great Sir N Gresley, a wonderful class of his engines and a great named train, the name of which it happens to share. You know what happens when something catches the eye/ear of that public lot. "Thomas the Tank" (sic) is another example
It’s well overrated
It’s the most handsome piece of engineering ever produced on these islands. For that alone it deserves our respect
A3 could replace an unavailable Deltic? Really? I find that a more interesting snippet you threw in our direction, Nigel, than the question of whether to un-improve the loco simply for looks. Find it difficult to believe 6 A3 wheels could begin to match the power output of 12 Deltic ones! - simply getting the train moving in the first place, let alone match the Deltic's high-speed power output with its legendary liability to suffer wheelslip at 80mph!
PNT told me that a Kylchap A3 was 'capable of filling in for a Deltic' and that's good enough for me! Likewise the late John Bellwood was fond of sharing that the large Ivan 'Atlantics" were likewise capable of subbing for a Gresley 'Pacific" after they were fitted with superheaters. During the First World War they were credited with hauling 20 coach trains from KX, ISTR....
@@nigelharris6873 Don't forget the diesel timings were gradually improved with further trackwork etc proceeding throughout the career of the deltics in the 70s. I also doubt an A3 would have been able to fulfil a deltic diagram of (say) 1980 with any great success, but within the constraints of the early 60s, on the occasions they were called upon to substitute, they achieved remarkable performance, equal to anything ever demanded routinely before, right until the very end. Another PNT observation was that once Kylchap fitted, an A3 was interchangeable with an A4. Although the A4s were allocated to the most important trains, if an A3 had to drop on instead, operators had little to worry about.
Thanks
Thanks Mervyn, that's really kind of you.
I would argue that open access operations are good for the travelling public because they get a better choice (and usually a cheaper fare), people like to have options and don't always go with the flow, one criticism of this vlog would be, it's not long enough, like some of our trains, cheers
I know Craig, but indirect or cross subsidy is never a good thing (I'm not just talking about open Access by the way) and the taxpayer pays that. And since the taxpayer pays more than the farepayer for today's railway, they are a relevant factor.
Thanks!
Thanks Brian. That's very kind indeed.
Thanks!
Thanks Brian, how incredibly kind.
Thanks
How incredibly generous. Thank you for your kind support, we very much appreciate it.
Thanks from us all at The Independent Brigg Line Rail Group and it's unique and unacceptable Monday to Friday passenger service
Thanks so much! Really kind of you to support us.
Scotsman being potentially derated to a single chimney, in my opinion, goes back to those, if you'll excuse me, armchair experts and foamers, who argue that Scotsman in its current form is ugly. They want to see her in something resembling her original form in apple green. Folks apparently don't like the smoke deflectors and the BR green. Wilbert Awdry, author of the Railway Series, apparently wasn't a fan of seeing A3s with the double exhaust and smoke deflectors either as evidenced during Scotsman's visit to see Gordon when he referred to his rebuild into an A3 as looking "horrid" and Pegler's subsequent conversion back to single exhaust with no smoke deflectors as being given back his "proper shape" (certainly showing the hand of the author there). The argument boils down to "I don't like the way it looks," akin to a petulant child's short-sighted tantrum.
I'd disagree, though. I'm apparently the weird one that likes the deflectors. It gives it a unique look. On top of that, they're functional. Sure the double exhaust transformed the A3's performance but it softened the blast from the chimney and allowed smoke to drift into the driver's view so the smoke lifters had to be added to lift smoke away from the driver's view and allow a clearer view while operating the locomotive. If you want to see Scotsman at her best then she MUST have her double exhaust and likewise MUST have the smoke deflectors. And remember Scotsman was not converted to an A3 until after the start of BR and even still would have been considered an A10, being converted after the discovery of the benefits of the double exhaust and deflectors. She is an A3 and to make her an A3 sans deflectors wearing apple green would put her in a fictitious state that only existed during Pegler's tenure with her. Further downrating her to an A1 when she would have historically worn apple green with a single exhaust is not feasible.
Here in the States we might not have the prettiest steam locomotives compared to British ones, but they make up for it in performance. Same for Scotsman in her current form. Some folks might not like its looks, but she's stronger, faster, and healthier for it. For preservation's sake being in her current states means she doesn't have to work as hard to give good performance on the mainline. Downgrading that exhaust to single chimney makes her weaker and slower and she won't raise steam as well. She'll have to work harder, wearing out her parts faster increasing maintenance costs, she'll have to use more coal during a time when coal is getting harder and more expensive to obtain increasing the operating costs and making more work for the crew, and with her lack of power she'll take more time getting up to speed limiting whatever time slots available for excursions even further meaning she'll run on the mainline less frequently and the rides will be longer. It makes absolutely no logical sense to run her on a single exhaust.
If you want Scotsman in Apple Green with single exhaust you have model trains and several simulators featuring her that way. Be satisfied with those, foamers and man children. The real world requires Scotsman to be at her best with the double exhaust and the smoke deflectors.
That last sentence nails it. Agreed!
My late father Peter Townend, former shed master at Kings Cross, was instrumental in getting the improved exhaust and smoke deflectors fitted to the A3s. Right at the very end of steam as the whole timetable was being accelerated, the pacifics were all putting in regular daily performance equal to the very best they had ever achieved, sometimes deputising on diesel diagrams without delays in the difficult changeover period. That they were able to do so sometimes with irregular and less experienced crews and variable coal quality was very much down to the dramatically improved performance of the 'racing exhaust' that is the double Kylchap. If the loco's future was stuffed and mounted in the museum or only steaming on heritage lines, then a single chimney would likely be fine. Rationally, on the mainline steam needs all the help it can get and FS must perform at its very best to keep up so I assert it needs the Kylchap and hence also the deflectors for safe forward visibility.
Does it make her weaker and slower? She did 100mph with a single chimney ... how fast do you think she will be going?😅
Oh and nice to see a piece of Apapa nicely preserved/displayed
Thanks! Wonderful engine. Looked great and sounded better. Never, ever let me down (that last bit isn't true sadly.....😉
Apapa once worked an East Lancs Railway charter to Gourock in the early 70s and disgraced itself by failing at Carlisle with the train straddling the southbound approach. I don't recall what the rescue arrangements were but I fancy we were a bit late back into Accy. It was a grand day out though with the included Clyde cruise being forsaken in favour of a bit of shed bashing round Glasgow.
Appreciate you checking on how to pronounce Leven, just shows you can't always trust online sources as many are American biased. Good news is that Leven trains have been very busy in the first week with even some overcrowding!
Worrying news about Flying Scotsman, hope its back on the track soon.
Interesting Jacobite news but still crazy for the Mk 1 coaches.
The Lumo guy was good but Lumo does not serve places off the main line, one of the arguments for Hull and Grand Central. I thought the ECML power upgrade was a committed scheme, what is delaying it?
Interesting you didn't mention safety as open access trains oversped twice at Peterborough, was this in any way a symptom of their fast track driver training schemes? Love seeing so many trains now between Newcastle and Edinburgh, a line Serpell wanted to close!
For the quiz I think John Betjeman about destruction of Euston Arch.
Thanks Allan. Pronunciation is always a challenge for people from Burnley, whereas those of us from Blackburn of course.......!
Martijn was brilliant wasn't he? I think there have been some amends to the ECML upgrade including power but it's a good question so we'll have a look.
Thanks re the quiz answer. Tune in next week to find out who has won!
One response for Lumo, their trains interiors are far too bright. Internal ambience isn’t great.
Interesting point. We'll pass that feedback on.
I love your green signals
Thanks very much Iain, glad you're enjoying it.
5 million restoration of 4472, that was public money. Yes, it,s iconic etc, etc but at that cost should have been sent to the NRM for static display, like City of Birmingham.
Steve, I suspect that may generate a whole series of comments on its own!
Single chimney arrangements can probably be at least as efficient as the double chimney/Kylchap arrangement, drawing on subsequent work by Porta and, recently, Koopman. It is worth exploring. The Lempor exhaust is, as far as I know, a single chimney arrangement. Koopman developed a 5- or 7-jet arrangement.
Not the point for the historical folk - they want it back exactly as Gresley built it - nothing less will do!
@@nigelharris6873
Hahaha. They will need half a dozen to represent all the different variations the loco went through. The double chimney is hardly visible.