I just recorded about 400 cds on a Mac mini M1 with a 2tb external ssd running through a DAC to my receiver. Works just fine even through Apple Music. You don’t need a ton of horsepower if that’s all you’re going to do.
I think the question was missed. He asked about building a server, not an endpoint/client. A file server feeding a streamer over dlna or Roon or whatever is very different from directly connecting an endpoint to a DAC. Mostly as a server, the specs don't matter much (nor due audio output engines). All that matters is it stores files, connects to the network, and has the protocols to connect to the dedicated streamer. A streamer is definitely the way to go. If you're asking how to turn a Mac Mini into a dedicated streamer, that's also a different question.
I agree....he explained some things in a rambling sort of manner, but didn't address the questions as I interpreted them. To say the least, I got very little information compared to what I had hoped. I will look elsewhere.
I use a Mac Mini (2014 design) as my music server with Roon as the software and it works very well. Consider that all the computer must do is run an application that can help you find the music file that you want to play, and send the digital file to your connected DAC. That effort is child’s play for a computer, so you do not need a powerful computer for this task. I did upgrade the disc in my Mac Mini to a Solid State Disc - I recommend at least 1TB. So, if your computer is capable of running an app like Roon, or others, then it should work fine.
For windows, there is s great SW from a French engineer. It's called VOICE MEETER (yes, with double E). I selected the version called Potato. This SW does not only bypass the Windows sound engine, but also comes along with great additional features, such as parametric EQ, Reverb, virtual slots for studio plugins, recording, and a nice mixer console. I run it via an USB audio device, and I am very happy with it - especially the reverb and EQ help me a lot to beef up flat recordings.
As with any computer connected to a DAC over USB, be sure the DAC has a good, isolated USB module. If noise is entering the system from USB, attempting to address it by eliminating it on the computer side is a fool’s errand. On a Mac, once the USB connection to the DAC has been established, use Apple’s confusingly named “Audio MIDI Setup” app included in the operating system /Applications/Utilities to select the DAC for audio output with fixed volume and select from the bit-depths/rates available from the DAC the one that matches your source material. You can either do this last step each time the source material bit-depth/rate changes or you can use one of the many 3rd party bit-perfect music playing applications that will do this for you when you select music to play. A simple, inexpensive one I like is called “Colibri”.
When I look at our dear Paul, it comes to mind that he changed in the last 20 Months. FOR THE BETTER! Paul, you look younger now, than hmm...2019 around! The absolute evidence of how proper food and a proper and healthy lifestyle can enhance our health and our appearance for the better! WOW, AMAZING!
My 2012 mac mini was getting wonky so i replaced it with a mac mini M! last fall. I bought the base unit with 8gb ram and a 256gb SSD and I use a dock with a 512GB SSD and extra ports to make up for the mini's sparcity. It has worked flawlesly over the past 4 monthj\s and i ve had no issues with anything using Swinson, Roon or Qoibuz. I use Swinson to play any of the 9,000 files I have on the hard disk and i think it sounds better than the 2012 mini did, it seems to have a lower noise floor.
Great advice. In Windows a few years ago, the key was to use ASIO drivers to avoid the crappy core system that messed with everything. Also on WinXP we used to shut down every process and even delete all but the core of the OS so all it could do was to boot, start a memory player and output bit perfect streams to the DAC. Sounded great. Linux does not need any special drivers. People create music players that just boot up and drive MPD and ALSA which can output the bits. I've used laptops, BBB, and now RPi as the computer. The key is to have something akin to PS Audio Lens to isolate and re-clock the signal. RPi by itself has a terrible clock at 48mb and will produce bad sound, but with a good isolator/re-clock it can be the best thing imaginable. ROON, moOde and similar OS bundles are readily available. Many like moOde or Volumio are free. I use moOde on the RPi, and MPDroide on my phone as the client. It can also be run from a browser from any laptop on the network. It is all free to download.
@Douglas Blake Sounds good (pardon the pun) and thanks for the clarification Douglas. I was referring to my early days of digital audio as a lesson learned and why in my audio journey I moved on to Linux which to me is a very good platform for digital audio. I don't advocate it for everyone, but it is nice to have a system that sounds excellent, runs on a processor that costs $50 and has open source free software that is updated automatically every couple of months. I turn it on and leave it on 7x24 just like the router and the NAS. It just works like a nice little appliance.
@Douglas Blake I disagree. While you need to take steps to configure Win10 for reliable ASIO use, ASIO drivers are still used predominantly amongst professional audio engineers. I have one DAW that supports WASAPI and several that only support ASIO. It is still the standard for many of us on both sides of the signal chain.
@Douglas Blake As a recording engineer and musician, I understand it, too. I resent your criticism of the way I look at it. I think you're way off base dismissing ASIO drivers. Just one example is I have installed my audio software on an out-of-the-box laptop not configured in any way for audio. Using the ASIO driver with a consumer audio interface, it worked great. But let's agree to disagree. Besides it's a bit ridiculous to be debating the virtues of audio drivers. There is too much music to record, listen to, and play to bother.
Just my two cents. I've played with bypassing the core engine on my Mac using bit perfect, listened carefully, and didn't hear the slightest hint of improvement. That doesn't mean you won't. I'm very picky about a lot of things, but the upsampling and other processing in the MacOS meets my standards. I use their built-in digital crossovers and equalization as well via Audio Hijack.
Hi Paul, Thanks so much for your videos on how to set up a music server. I’m setting one up per your guide. Question: should I turn off the wireless in the Mac Mini server?
Forget the Apple audiophile dream, Apple audio days are a thing of the past. Any pc (apple, windows or linux based) will or can be a great server/streamer etc for your audiophile system all with there own pro's and cons. Forget the name and go for the one you know and like. There is no one better than the other. It is all great.
How do I add a DAC to a Late 2012 Mac Mini.. Wouldn’t the output from the headphones jack.. Already be processed to Analog? I think the 3.5 mini HP jack is the only output that’ll hook up to a DAC.
MACs have (or had) the advantage that the sound output usually only weakens at the end; while with Windows computers you can immediately hear that the computer has an itch in its calf. However, you shouldn't use the audio hardware built in and used by the manufacturer on both systems and also their driver software on Windows - there are exist external devices that really do it better. But only if You really want to hear everything also in the sub-bit range ;)
@Douglas Blake I already get most of the music files I listen to digitally and don't need to render them at all - or what exactly do You mean by/with Your answer?
Paul is talking about how operating systems change sample rate, bit resolution, level attenuation etc. before outputting the data to a DAC. Of course the quality of the math involved is not perfect causing some signal integrity losses. For example, your 44.1kHz 16 bits CD quality track might get converted to 48kHz 24 bits and the conversion introduces some approximations that might be audible. In Mac OS there are a number of Audio Converter Services that deal with PCM audio conversions for bit depth, sample rate, floating point/integer, interleaved/de-interleaved and compression/decompression. What Paul is saying is to avoid those and instead keep the data unharmed right to the DAC. Yes, I agree on that but I also have learned that the math involved today is much better than in older operating systems where processing resources were limited. So the issue is less of a concern today, but as audiophile, you get better quality at no cost with Paul’s recommendation, so I 100% agree.
There are companies out there that will modify a Mac Mini by turning off much of the noise producing hardware, adding a separate power supply, etc. I used this for a while before going to a dedicated music server,
I got a mac mini M2 this week. I am using it as a movie/music hub. I updated from the 2018 Intel i5 3.0Ghz since it was good up to 720p remote transcoding max. I also purchased a 12TB NAS to store music and movies. I have the mac hooked up to a Pioneer SC_LX501 receiver Via HDMI. I am totally new to the DAC thing. I know the receiver has one but my question is, do I need one for the music from the mac? I looked at Dragonfly Cobalt and also something Zen but I am not sure if people who buy these are just creating stand-alone systems or what. I have an Apple TV too so I have equipment but am not sure how to get the best audio for music. Movie sound is great! Please advise.
Audirvana is available for Windows too - 64-bit systems only, however - and I also use Foobar2000 on a Notebook because it's a 32-bit computer. When set up correctly - and, yes, I bypass all the Windows' audio processing - both can sound excellent.
The unfortunate part is all the new Mac Minis, in fact pretty much all the new Macs don't allow any RAM upgrades unless you order them that way from Apple or buy the version with the RAM you want. But even then you are still limited to only 8 or 16 GB Ram on a Mini. I was thinking of getting the bare-bones Mac Mini M1 wich is down to about $300 these days. Would that be enough if I add a 2TB HD?
Sound Blaster is made by a company “Creative Sound” They audio products for gamers and other audio uses. Sound Cards and DAC’s. I have a old Creative sound card I bought back in the late 90’s. Still works 👍
The real secret sauce in this conversation is of course not to connect your PC (Windows/MAC or Linux) directly to the DAC but just use it just as a music server with something like logitech media server (LMS) software (which is free by the way) and coupled it with a Raspberry PI's and an audio hat, very simple to do and exceptional value for money even when buying expensive hat's, something like the Raspberry PI 4 + Allo Digione Signature running with a linear power supply connected to your DAC will amaze you when comparing it against branded products, This is where the real audiophile digital promised land lies
@Douglas Blake The Pi and the server box are both operating indepedently on a network, the Digione hat electronically isolates itself from the Pi by having a clean board between itself and the Pi, both the Pi and the Digione are supplied by a linear power supply, it is connected to a DAC via either an rca coax or bnc connection, end result is a very clean signal being sent to your DAC with a very low noise floor and very low jitter.
@Douglas Blake Not really that complex it's just a PC sitting on your network, a Pi sitting on the network which has the hat attached and a linear power supply, Software updates are simple and are done with the kit in situ. At the end of the day it's all about the electronics providing as clean a signal and as jitter free to the DAC as it can, and with respect no software in the world will be able to resolve that. All i can attest to is the seperation, soundstage, depth and clarity improved dramatically from a directly connected PC with a specialised USB card. It was like going from a £300 to a £3,000 amplifier. All in all an extremely worthwhile experiment that i would recommend to anyone and after all isn't our hobby here all about experimenting with different kit to try and find our own personal nirvana.
@@canepaper967 yes a digital signal is just 1's and 0's but you also have to take into account the circuitry that is transporting those 1's and 0's around and out to your DAC, it will be effected by noise in the circuitry (mainly caused by the mains electricity the device is plugged into) you can mitigate this by in effect scrubbing the power via a linear power supply, computers are very electronically noisiest so if you can power this by a linear supply you are reducing the noise there and but isolating the hat which actual produces the signal to send to the DAC you are reducing the chance of noise being introduced there and hence a cleaner signal being received by the DAC. Just because your WAV file contain all the correct sequence of 1's and 0's to produce a PCM stream of AC/DC's Black in Black doesn't mean that exact sequence of 1's and 0's is received by the DAC, there will be random artifacts produced by electrical noise that are introduced into that stream that effect it in all kinds of ways, so the cleaner the signal the nearer you get to the original WAV's sequence of 1's and 0's for the DAC to do it's thing. Think of electrical noise like dust sitting between the groves of a vinyl record, the dust makes the needle not track the groves exactly and so your not going to get the full recording as intended, so you clean the record and you get a better sound, it's in effect the same principle.
@@narfit1966 the amount of noise required to affect digital signals is orders of magnitude above that of analog, I think your ears may have deceived you or there are other factors at play.
Yes the camera dongle..✅ The new iPads Pro are Apple USB addition. You can plug in external HD’s, etc. I have a iPad 12.9 with 512 gig. I am not upgrading anytime soon.
For windows Foobar and SACD component set SACD to DSD only if Dac supports it and ASIO if have Asio drivers for your DAC then can stream DSD direct to your DAC, Some later computers now support ASIO on the internal cards if have a high end laptop/motherboard some now have dual Dacs. I really only listen to DSD etc on my computer/laptop with Headphones or sometimes using my speakers that do have a built in Dac but dont support DSD only DSD over PCM. My Atmos 6.2.4 Cinema / Music room yep its one room but to me still sounds great, I have a QNAP with NVME and SSD's stream to my media players then to my Reciver using Direct DSD and then usually have it set to Pure mode to hear all the details.. Yep all speakers disapear and if close eyes instruments can be way behind the walls of the room and also dotted all over the room behind right next to you to the left or right behind the front speakears with the singer directly in the middle. Stereo mode can also get a nice surround effect not quite so behind you but it fills the room. Took me a while to get there but it can be done. After doing some room corrects my left and right subs sound like ive never heard them before and I wish Hans Zimmer song Time was on DSD as i think it will do it justice.
I fail to understand why people think there are different sounds from different file servers. A file server is a file server, period. I use a Qnap 16TB Raid5 ( 10.5TB ) NAS. And, at times, a Raspberry Pi 3. Same file, same seperate audiophile playback system, Gigabit LAN, the file sounds the same from both sources. These things DON'T stream. The file to be played is transferred over the LAN in sub milliseconds. Not streamed.
You have to cut some of these people some slack. Not everyone is a computer geek, not everyone is an Audiophile on this channel. People use music in many different ways, their own way, whatever works for them personally. For some it can be confusing because of the many factors and variables with different types of software/hardware they use. Some of these people on this channel even do their own coding in Terminal. ✅ Some use Bash commands. ✅ They have used Windows, Apple, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, IOS, Raspberry Pi, etc.
@@papapapaw I have at least 6 different "file servers" here all of which can serve audio files to numerous platforms via 1GB Ethernet LAN. Example an 8-minute long mp3 file. The amount it takes to transmit that file from the file server to the playing device can be, and I can do this, measure that time in milliseconds. I have the tools here that can totally display the entirety of the format of those files. There is no difference in how that file sounds one server to another. And that is what Paul said in thi video.
Its a better bet to go NAS for this kind of thing these days. Its simpler, uses less power, and far less prone to failure, whether its an off the shelf Synology NAS, or a raspberry pi with external storage.
Don't macs automatically adjust the sample rates? When streaming different sample rates on Qobuz the sample rates change accordingly on the DAC when checking the "audio MIDI setup" utility. Or am I missing something here?
Very interesting stuff. Paul, do you have any suggestions for a dac where you can monitor the input bitrates? (That won’t cost as much as a car) I have samson, focusrite and some smaller units, but they don’t show input bitrates. I also use drivers like Asio4all on some occasions to support multiple inputs and outputs, which have a detrimental effect on audio quality, maybe you have suggestions on this too?
@Douglas Blake Oh very interesting, I will definitely check those out. Indeed, when I'm on windows and I need to record and output at the same time, I've been forced to use asio4all. I understand that WASAPI is perfect for output alone, but not in/out simultaneous, especially via different cards/interfaces.
@Douglas Blake Why do you keep hating on ASIO in the comments? It also runs exclusively. I also guarantee that's what the OP's Focusrite interface uses.
I think you are both right. I can run focusrite exclusively, or samson mics/dacs exclusive. They sound as good as they need to. The problem arises when I need to run both at the same time, for recording input from ie. guitar/bass through focusrite, and vocals through samson mic/dac. this forces me to use asio4all, which causes issues, ie. sometimes I need to switch "safe mode" a few times just to make it sound bearable. (no little crackles🤦🏻♂) so this is probably partly my own fault in setup, but could probably be somewhat attributed to the software decisions. I don't know, You have any ideas?
Sorry but you didnt explain what the title says. How do you connect the mac to the speakers for example. I just connect my PC speakers to the headphone jack and play files with VLC and they sound very good (much better than my old sony cd player) and loud enough (no dacs or any other strage stuff). Im beginning to think those audiophiles are just rich snobs. Im a music lover (like everyone else on the planet, because who doesnt love music) and have hundreds of classical and metal files so that the macmini hard drive is almost full.
Pls be mindful of your playback software's minimum requirements. For example, current version of Audirvana requires High Sierra OS or later, and at least 4GB RAM, although they say 8GB is optimal.
I wonder; Why do something like this, instead of getting a good, affordable streamer like a Yamaha WXC50 or so? And hook that up to a DAC? It seems easier, and you'll immediately be rid of the CoreAudio stuff you don't want. I personally run a WXC50 through a North Star DAC, and get the music (digitised vinyl) from my NAS, but of course I can just hook a harddisk up to the WXC50 should I want to :)
I have a question to Paul or anyone those that has been using a Mac Mini as a streamer. Set up is a 2014 Mac Mini 2 TB to a Micromega MyDac into a SR7008 Marantz. Sound seems really good to fantastic through Martin Logan speakers. I'm using Apple Music. When I try to add in Homepods in other parts of the house the sound will cut off for a second connecting to Homepods. When the music resumes on the main system theres a very discernible difference in the sound. A little bit of , through a tin can, change in the sound. Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know what the @#&% causes it? Is there a fix?
Sorry, I just converted you to a "McDonald's milk shake", I do have JRiver bit perfect, but it and TH-cam don't talk to each other - Not that it probably matters after the TH-cam compressors etc have done their work. I also run a Raspberry Pi based Volumio player/streamer, in which I've avoided adding any extra plug-ins etc, thinking that extra CPU load could cause degradation, kind of like that 'stripped down' Mac mini.
go thru gpu card set music to max 24 bit JOB DONE USE A HDMI OUTPUT IF IM MUSIC LISTENING I SELECT STEREO IF IM GAMING OR MOVIES I SELECT PCM 5.1 OR ATMOS
Any computer can be used as a server for hosting audio files lol why a mac mini those are horrible! As for playing music, any computer with a sound card with ASIO out is the best way of doing this, as long as it has SPDIF out, I don't know about Core Audio but if it is an audio interface with SPDIF out then it would work, just make sure as Paul said, that it's not going through the engine and resampling
I kind of get it and I kind of don't get it.... How can you use software & trust to record from it & it's actions on any computer if the internal mechanics are anti-Audio? .... MAYBE to me what MOTIVATES some might be a Certain Crowd who are financially enabled to invest in a dedicated market available to plug and play devices? - I don't know? - I'm a poor VETERAN living almost on Poverty levels unimagined in my youth.
As far as I can tell, Apple Music is the worst sounding streaming service. It's the one that sounds the least authentic to the recording. I's rather listen to Spotify, despite it's lossy codecs. Even better Qobuz if you can live with their UX. I haven't played with Tidal or Amazon HD music.
Computers are not musical devices no matter how much lipstick you put on the pig. There are a number of affordable dedicated music servers on the market with good usable software that will be plug and play and will sound excellent. Why make your life more difficult with a computer.
@Douglas Blake Yes they are, but devoid of bloated operating systems that need to accomplish several different tasks. It's not the same in practice as hooking up a windows/mac machine to a DAC. That's the old school way that existed before we were gifted with streamers. It makes very little sense for most people to still use the old method.
@Douglas Blake Sorry but you're not bursting anything. A dedicated MUSIC server is designed to do 1 thing only. They should be build with sound quality in mind and care taken to maximize that quality within it's price range.
@Douglas Blake My skills with a computer are rudimentary at best. I find most after market software difficult to set-up and use. I am happy with my plug and play server that is easy to use sounds good, has a decent DAC. I am essentially an analog guy so this is strictly for streaming.
@Douglas Blake I would suggest that you find some of Paul's videos on noise in computers because he probably disagrees with you. To me most basic media players are horrible and don't offer remote controls. Even the streaming apps themselves leave a lot to be desired. I'm happy with my simple streaming and storage set-up and don't wish to complicate my life.
@Douglas Blake I believe it is you who is confused about this subject. When you ask for a song to be played, you are not just transferring the file. You are asking for the stream of 1's and 0' that make up that file to be transferred to the input of the DAC. This happens by the stream going from the storage device to the internal data bus, then depending on where the DAC is, sent on an external data bus to the output. If the storage device is external then the data goes externally to the internal bus to be routed to its final destination. If you are performing multiple task the information will go on those same internal data buses at the same time. The CPU is just in charge of the routing so regardless of how hard it is working is irrelevant. All this data floating around on these buses can and is effected. If digital is so perfect then why are there so many different DACs. They should all sound the same and they don't. I think you equate sound quality to low distortion and that is just not the case. The low distortion wars were fought in the 80's and 90's and are not a measure of sound quality in analog or digital.
because of planned obsolescence and lack of software support (updates bricking some macs) i do NOT support or run macs on any of my or my customers systems. the two systems i DO use are suse and windows (not later than win7 because of backwards compatibility problems with later versions of windows). macs are not the workhorse of the industry at ground level.
Hey Paul. If you could get someone to do a tutorial video on how to setup the mac mini that would be appreciated by many of your fans. Best wishes
Oh yes please. I’m 57 and finally got a used Naim Uniti Atom which I hope to serve music files to on a Mac mini. A setup video would help me no end!
I just recorded about 400 cds on a Mac mini M1 with a 2tb external ssd running through a DAC to my receiver. Works just fine even through Apple Music. You don’t need a ton of horsepower if that’s all you’re going to do.
Hello, why do you need a DAC to your receiver? Or are you using RCA plugs? Thank you.
I think the question was missed. He asked about building a server, not an endpoint/client. A file server feeding a streamer over dlna or Roon or whatever is very different from directly connecting an endpoint to a DAC. Mostly as a server, the specs don't matter much (nor due audio output engines). All that matters is it stores files, connects to the network, and has the protocols to connect to the dedicated streamer. A streamer is definitely the way to go. If you're asking how to turn a Mac Mini into a dedicated streamer, that's also a different question.
He also asked about using Apple Music on the Mini, which wasn’t addressed.
I agree....he explained some things in a rambling sort of manner, but didn't address the questions as I interpreted them. To say the least, I got very little information compared to what I had hoped. I will look elsewhere.
I use a Mac Mini (2014 design) as my music server with Roon as the software and it works very well. Consider that all the computer must do is run an application that can help you find the music file that you want to play, and send the digital file to your connected DAC. That effort is child’s play for a computer, so you do not need a powerful computer for this task. I did upgrade the disc in my Mac Mini to a Solid State Disc - I recommend at least 1TB. So, if your computer is capable of running an app like Roon, or others, then it should work fine.
For windows, there is s great SW from a French engineer. It's called VOICE MEETER (yes, with double E). I selected the version called Potato.
This SW does not only bypass the Windows sound engine, but also comes along with great additional features, such as parametric EQ, Reverb, virtual slots for studio plugins, recording, and a nice mixer console. I run it via an USB audio device, and I am very happy with it - especially the reverb and EQ help me a lot to beef up flat recordings.
Also Foobar2000 is excellent and supports DSD playback with 3rd party open source (read: free) plugins.
As with any computer connected to a DAC over USB, be sure the DAC has a good, isolated USB module. If noise is entering the system from USB, attempting to address it by eliminating it on the computer side is a fool’s errand. On a Mac, once the USB connection to the DAC has been established, use Apple’s confusingly named “Audio MIDI Setup” app included in the operating system /Applications/Utilities to select the DAC for audio output with fixed volume and select from the bit-depths/rates available from the DAC the one that matches your source material. You can either do this last step each time the source material bit-depth/rate changes or you can use one of the many 3rd party bit-perfect music playing applications that will do this for you when you select music to play. A simple, inexpensive one I like is called “Colibri”.
you dont need any dac really
JRiver media center for Mac or Windows is the one to use. its perfect.
When I look at our dear Paul, it comes to mind that he changed in the last 20 Months. FOR THE BETTER! Paul, you look younger now, than hmm...2019 around!
The absolute evidence of how proper food and a proper and healthy lifestyle can enhance our health and our appearance for the better! WOW, AMAZING!
Well, that's a very kind note! Thank you. Maybe the new haircut? I do try to eat and stay healthy.
My 2012 mac mini was getting wonky so i replaced it with a mac mini M! last fall. I bought the base unit with 8gb ram and a 256gb SSD and I use a dock with a 512GB SSD and extra ports to make up for the mini's sparcity. It has worked flawlesly over the past 4 monthj\s and i ve had no issues with anything using Swinson, Roon or Qoibuz. I use Swinson to play any of the 9,000 files I have on the hard disk and i think it sounds better than the 2012 mini did, it seems to have a lower noise floor.
Great advice.
In Windows a few years ago, the key was to use ASIO drivers to avoid the crappy core system that messed with everything. Also on WinXP we used to shut down every process and even delete all but the core of the OS so all it could do was to boot, start a memory player and output bit perfect streams to the DAC. Sounded great.
Linux does not need any special drivers. People create music players that just boot up and drive MPD and ALSA which can output the bits. I've used laptops, BBB, and now RPi as the computer. The key is to have something akin to PS Audio Lens to isolate and re-clock the signal. RPi by itself has a terrible clock at 48mb and will produce bad sound, but with a good isolator/re-clock it can be the best thing imaginable. ROON, moOde and similar OS bundles are readily available. Many like moOde or Volumio are free. I use moOde on the RPi, and MPDroide on my phone as the client. It can also be run from a browser from any laptop on the network. It is all free to download.
@Douglas Blake Sounds good (pardon the pun) and thanks for the clarification Douglas. I was referring to my early days of digital audio as a lesson learned and why in my audio journey I moved on to Linux which to me is a very good platform for digital audio. I don't advocate it for everyone, but it is nice to have a system that sounds excellent, runs on a processor that costs $50 and has open source free software that is updated automatically every couple of months. I turn it on and leave it on 7x24 just like the router and the NAS. It just works like a nice little appliance.
i believe it all depends on th other end (streamer / dac) some streamers / dac like asio and others more suited with wasapi
@Douglas Blake I disagree. While you need to take steps to configure Win10 for reliable ASIO use, ASIO drivers are still used predominantly amongst professional audio engineers. I have one DAW that supports WASAPI and several that only support ASIO. It is still the standard for many of us on both sides of the signal chain.
@Douglas Blake My software works great! Sounds like you have a problem where there isn't one for others.
@Douglas Blake As a recording engineer and musician, I understand it, too. I resent your criticism of the way I look at it. I think you're way off base dismissing ASIO drivers. Just one example is I have installed my audio software on an out-of-the-box laptop not configured in any way for audio. Using the ASIO driver with a consumer audio interface, it worked great.
But let's agree to disagree. Besides it's a bit ridiculous to be debating the virtues of audio drivers. There is too much music to record, listen to, and play to bother.
Just my two cents. I've played with bypassing the core engine on my Mac using bit perfect, listened carefully, and didn't hear the slightest hint of improvement. That doesn't mean you won't. I'm very picky about a lot of things, but the upsampling and other processing in the MacOS meets my standards. I use their built-in digital crossovers and equalization as well via Audio Hijack.
Hi Paul, Thanks so much for your videos on how to set up a music server. I’m setting one up per your guide. Question: should I turn off the wireless in the Mac Mini server?
I bought a Mac mini M1 for ROON but realised how quickly it maxed out 8GB RAM. Then switched to similar spec intel nuc which is blazing fast.
Audiophiles, the only people in the world who can hear the electrons passing through the cables. 😂
Electrons don’t pass through cables…
@@JingoLoBa57
That’s why it’s part of the joke. 😆
@@JingoLoBa57 then why do you need cables for electricity?
Forget the Apple audiophile dream, Apple audio days are a thing of the past. Any pc (apple, windows or linux based) will or can be a great server/streamer etc for your audiophile system all with there own pro's and cons. Forget the name and go for the one you know and like. There is no one better than the other. It is all great.
How do I add a DAC to a Late 2012 Mac Mini..
Wouldn’t the output from the headphones jack..
Already be processed to Analog?
I think the 3.5 mini HP jack is the only output that’ll hook up to a DAC.
MACs have (or had) the advantage that the sound output usually only weakens at the end; while with Windows computers you can immediately hear that the computer has an itch in its calf.
However, you shouldn't use the audio hardware built in and used by the manufacturer on both systems and also their driver software on Windows - there are exist external devices that really do it better. But only if You really want to hear everything also in the sub-bit range ;)
@Douglas Blake I already get most of the music files I listen to digitally and don't need to render them at all - or what exactly do You mean by/with Your answer?
Paul is talking about how operating systems change sample rate, bit resolution, level attenuation etc. before outputting the data to a DAC. Of course the quality of the math involved is not perfect causing some signal integrity losses. For example, your 44.1kHz 16 bits CD quality track might get converted to 48kHz 24 bits and the conversion introduces some approximations that might be audible. In Mac OS there are a number of Audio Converter Services that deal with PCM audio conversions for bit depth, sample rate, floating point/integer, interleaved/de-interleaved and compression/decompression. What Paul is saying is to avoid those and instead keep the data unharmed right to the DAC. Yes, I agree on that but I also have learned that the math involved today is much better than in older operating systems where processing resources were limited. So the issue is less of a concern today, but as audiophile, you get better quality at no cost with Paul’s recommendation, so I 100% agree.
There are companies out there that will modify a Mac Mini by turning off much of the noise producing hardware, adding a separate power supply, etc. I used this for a while before going to a dedicated music server,
What was the name of the company that you used? I may want to look into them. Thx
@@FM_0555 I used Mojo-Audio. They may have gone to their own servers, though. Good luck!
I got a mac mini M2 this week. I am using it as a movie/music hub. I updated from the 2018 Intel i5 3.0Ghz since it was good up to 720p remote transcoding max. I also purchased a 12TB NAS to store music and movies. I have the mac hooked up to a Pioneer SC_LX501 receiver Via HDMI. I am totally new to the DAC thing. I know the receiver has one but my question is, do I need one for the music from the mac? I looked at Dragonfly Cobalt and also something Zen but I am not sure if people who buy these are just creating stand-alone systems or what.
I have an Apple TV too so I have equipment but am not sure how to get the best audio for music. Movie sound is great!
Please advise.
Audirvana is available for Windows too - 64-bit systems only, however - and I also use Foobar2000 on a Notebook because it's a 32-bit computer. When set up correctly - and, yes, I bypass all the Windows' audio processing - both can sound excellent.
The unfortunate part is all the new Mac Minis, in fact pretty much all the new Macs don't allow any RAM upgrades unless you order them that way from Apple or buy the version with the RAM you want. But even then you are still limited to only 8 or 16 GB Ram on a Mini.
I was thinking of getting the bare-bones Mac Mini M1 wich is down to about $300 these days. Would that be enough if I add a 2TB HD?
Hi Paul, you discuss digital processing. how about sound blaster external device? is it good to use?
Sound Blaster is made by a company “Creative Sound”
They audio products for gamers and other audio uses. Sound Cards and DAC’s. I have a old Creative sound card I bought back in the late 90’s. Still works 👍
The real secret sauce in this conversation is of course not to connect your PC (Windows/MAC or Linux) directly to the DAC but just use it just as a music server with something like logitech media server (LMS) software (which is free by the way) and coupled it with a Raspberry PI's and an audio hat, very simple to do and exceptional value for money even when buying expensive hat's, something like the Raspberry PI 4 + Allo Digione Signature running with a linear power supply connected to your DAC will amaze you when comparing it against branded products, This is where the real audiophile digital promised land lies
@Douglas Blake The Pi and the server box are both operating indepedently on a network, the Digione hat electronically isolates itself from the Pi by having a clean board between itself and the Pi, both the Pi and the Digione are supplied by a linear power supply, it is connected to a DAC via either an rca coax or bnc connection, end result is a very clean signal being sent to your DAC with a very low noise floor and very low jitter.
@Douglas Blake Not really that complex it's just a PC sitting on your network, a Pi sitting on the network which has the hat attached and a linear power supply, Software updates are simple and are done with the kit in situ. At the end of the day it's all about the electronics providing as clean a signal and as jitter free to the DAC as it can, and with respect no software in the world will be able to resolve that.
All i can attest to is the seperation, soundstage, depth and clarity improved dramatically from a directly connected PC with a specialised USB card. It was like going from a £300 to a £3,000 amplifier. All in all an extremely worthwhile experiment that i would recommend to anyone and after all isn't our hobby here all about experimenting with different kit to try and find our own personal nirvana.
@narfit1966 isn't a digital signal clean to begin with? We're talking about 1s and 0s here.
@@canepaper967 yes a digital signal is just 1's and 0's but you also have to take into account the circuitry that is transporting those 1's and 0's around and out to your DAC, it will be effected by noise in the circuitry (mainly caused by the mains electricity the device is plugged into) you can mitigate this by in effect scrubbing the power via a linear power supply, computers are very electronically noisiest so if you can power this by a linear supply you are reducing the noise there and but isolating the hat which actual produces the signal to send to the DAC you are reducing the chance of noise being introduced there and hence a cleaner signal being received by the DAC.
Just because your WAV file contain all the correct sequence of 1's and 0's to produce a PCM stream of AC/DC's Black in Black doesn't mean that exact sequence of 1's and 0's is received by the DAC, there will be random artifacts produced by electrical noise that are introduced into that stream that effect it in all kinds of ways, so the cleaner the signal the nearer you get to the original WAV's sequence of 1's and 0's for the DAC to do it's thing. Think of electrical noise like dust sitting between the groves of a vinyl record, the dust makes the needle not track the groves exactly and so your not going to get the full recording as intended, so you clean the record and you get a better sound, it's in effect the same principle.
@@narfit1966 the amount of noise required to affect digital signals is orders of magnitude above that of analog, I think your ears may have deceived you or there are other factors at play.
Use a Mac Mini Pre 2012 and upgrade the RAM to max... You can't upgrade RAM on post models. Then use Audirvana or Bitperfect
i believe my iPad does this automatically with a hard wired USB connection using the Camara adapter.
Yes the camera dongle..✅
The new iPads Pro are Apple USB addition. You can plug in external HD’s, etc. I have a iPad 12.9 with 512 gig. I am not upgrading anytime soon.
For windows Foobar and SACD component set SACD to DSD only if Dac supports it and ASIO if have Asio drivers for your DAC then can stream DSD direct to your DAC, Some later computers now support ASIO on the internal cards if have a high end laptop/motherboard some now have dual Dacs. I really only listen to DSD etc on my computer/laptop with Headphones or sometimes using my speakers that do have a built in Dac but dont support DSD only DSD over PCM. My Atmos 6.2.4 Cinema / Music room yep its one room but to me still sounds great, I have a QNAP with NVME and SSD's stream to my media players then to my Reciver using Direct DSD and then usually have it set to Pure mode to hear all the details.. Yep all speakers disapear and if close eyes instruments can be way behind the walls of the room and also dotted all over the room behind right next to you to the left or right behind the front speakears with the singer directly in the middle. Stereo mode can also get a nice surround effect not quite so behind you but it fills the room. Took me a while to get there but it can be done. After doing some room corrects my left and right subs sound like ive never heard them before and I wish Hans Zimmer song Time was on DSD as i think it will do it justice.
Would I use bitperfect and roon if I want a roon server?
I fail to understand why people think there are different sounds from different file servers. A file server is a file server, period. I use a Qnap 16TB Raid5 ( 10.5TB ) NAS. And, at times, a Raspberry Pi 3. Same file, same seperate audiophile playback system, Gigabit LAN, the file sounds the same from both sources.
These things DON'T stream. The file to be played is transferred over the LAN in sub milliseconds. Not streamed.
You have to cut some of these people some slack. Not everyone is a computer geek, not everyone is an Audiophile on this channel. People use music in many different ways, their own way, whatever works for them personally.
For some it can be confusing
because of the many factors and variables with different types of software/hardware they use. Some of these people on this channel even do their own coding in Terminal. ✅
Some use Bash commands. ✅
They have used Windows, Apple, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, IOS, Raspberry Pi, etc.
You dont understand because you have not heard the difference yourself.
@@papapapaw I have at least 6 different "file servers" here all of which can serve audio files to numerous platforms via 1GB Ethernet LAN. Example an 8-minute long mp3 file. The amount it takes to transmit that file from the file server to the playing device can be, and I can do this, measure that time in milliseconds.
I have the tools here that can totally display the entirety of the format of those files. There is no difference in how that file sounds one server to another. And that is what Paul said in thi video.
@@wilcalint you said “mp3”. Explains a lot.
Its a better bet to go NAS for this kind of thing these days. Its simpler, uses less power, and far less prone to failure, whether its an off the shelf Synology NAS, or a raspberry pi with external storage.
Don't macs automatically adjust the sample rates? When streaming different sample rates on Qobuz the sample rates change accordingly on the DAC when checking the "audio MIDI setup" utility. Or am I missing something here?
Exactly what must I use on Windows 11 to eliminate the use of any processing that detracts from the sound?
@Douglas Blake
Anything that doesn’t fit Paul’s agenda or narrative gets deleted.
@Douglas Blake I wonder if the WASAPI Exclusive mode could be incorporated into Spotify for Windows and if so why have they not done it?
@Douglas Blake 10 years ago people were working on a plug-in but it seems to have stalled. Spotify should add a bit perfect feature….
Very interesting stuff. Paul, do you have any suggestions for a dac where you can monitor the input bitrates? (That won’t cost as much as a car)
I have samson, focusrite and some smaller units, but they don’t show input bitrates.
I also use drivers like Asio4all on some occasions to support multiple inputs and outputs, which have a detrimental effect on audio quality, maybe you have suggestions on this too?
@Douglas Blake Oh very interesting, I will definitely check those out.
Indeed, when I'm on windows and I need to record and output at the same time, I've been forced to use asio4all. I understand that WASAPI is perfect for output alone, but not in/out simultaneous, especially via different cards/interfaces.
@Douglas Blake Why do you keep hating on ASIO in the comments? It also runs exclusively. I also guarantee that's what the OP's Focusrite interface uses.
@Douglas Blake Sure, but there is nothing wrong with ASIO when done right.
I think you are both right.
I can run focusrite exclusively, or samson mics/dacs exclusive. They sound as good as they need to.
The problem arises when I need to run both at the same time, for recording input from ie. guitar/bass through focusrite, and vocals through samson mic/dac.
this forces me to use asio4all, which causes issues, ie. sometimes I need to switch "safe mode" a few times just to make it sound bearable. (no little crackles🤦🏻♂)
so this is probably partly my own fault in setup, but could probably be somewhat attributed to the software decisions.
I don't know,
You have any ideas?
The trouble with apple is some of their stuff isn't the best with EQ.
Sorry but you didnt explain what the title says. How do you connect the mac to the speakers for example. I just connect my PC speakers to the headphone jack and play files with VLC and they sound very good (much better than my old sony cd player) and loud enough (no dacs or any other strage stuff). Im beginning to think those audiophiles are just rich snobs. Im a music lover (like everyone else on the planet, because who doesnt love music) and have hundreds of classical and metal files so that the macmini hard drive is almost full.
Pls be mindful of your playback software's minimum requirements. For example, current version of Audirvana requires High Sierra OS or later, and at least 4GB RAM, although they say 8GB is optimal.
Paul, Emilio here From San Diego. Keep the videos coming. My main question today.
When are the AirLens coming out?
Your biggest Fan, Emilio
Hopefully May
Denver *is not* East of Boulder, it's South!
Commodore 64 is the best to use that's what was used in the studios
Lol Comadore with 486 processor and 64kb ram. Outboard 28.8kpbs modem. Outboard modem keeps the internal noise down🤓
Hello everyone; Any suggestions/options for a Windows based system? Thanks a lot in advance. Cheers 👍👍👍.
I wonder; Why do something like this, instead of getting a good, affordable streamer like a Yamaha WXC50 or so? And hook that up to a DAC?
It seems easier, and you'll immediately be rid of the CoreAudio stuff you don't want. I personally run a WXC50 through a North Star DAC, and get the music (digitised vinyl) from my NAS, but of course I can just hook a harddisk up to the WXC50 should I want to :)
Because what might be affordable to you might not be to others. AND, for someone that has a Mac Mini not being used, this would be a great option.
I have a question to Paul or anyone those that has been using a Mac Mini as a streamer. Set up is a 2014 Mac Mini 2 TB to a Micromega MyDac into a SR7008 Marantz. Sound seems really good to fantastic through Martin Logan speakers. I'm using Apple Music. When I try to add in Homepods in other parts of the house the sound will cut off for a second connecting to Homepods. When the music resumes on the main system theres a very discernible difference in the sound. A little bit of , through a tin can, change in the sound. Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know what the @#&% causes it? Is there a fix?
Sorry, I just converted you to a "McDonald's milk shake", I do have JRiver bit perfect, but it and TH-cam don't talk to each other - Not that it probably matters after the TH-cam compressors etc have done their work.
I also run a Raspberry Pi based Volumio player/streamer, in which I've avoided adding any extra plug-ins etc, thinking that extra CPU load could cause degradation, kind of like that 'stripped down' Mac mini.
Question. Do the “onboard audio engines” in MAC and Windows at least play CD 16/44?
The onboard DAC will play up to 24/48 on Mac’s. If you want to go higher you have to use a separate DAC connected to your MAC.
@@JeremyCovington. Oh! OK. Seeing that most of my ‘files’ are 16/44, I’m safe on MAC.
@@Douglas_Blake That’s good to know also.
Seems as you fell in the 480p final cut pro trap once again. 😺
Standard McCheese Burger on a Mac 🍔🍔🍔 !!! 🤣🤣🤣
True about the McDonald's
go thru gpu card set music to max 24 bit JOB DONE USE A HDMI OUTPUT IF IM MUSIC LISTENING I SELECT STEREO IF IM GAMING OR MOVIES I SELECT PCM 5.1 OR ATMOS
Those that are confused..?
Read through the comments.
Any computer can be used as a server for hosting audio files lol why a mac mini those are horrible! As for playing music, any computer with a sound card with ASIO out is the best way of doing this, as long as it has SPDIF out, I don't know about Core Audio but if it is an audio interface with SPDIF out then it would work, just make sure as Paul said, that it's not going through the engine and resampling
How on earth can a Mac Mini be a music system? I thought it was a computer that needs a screen?!?!
I kind of get it and I kind of don't get it.... How can you use software & trust to record from it & it's actions on any computer if the internal mechanics are anti-Audio? .... MAYBE to me what MOTIVATES some might be a Certain Crowd who are financially enabled to invest in a dedicated market available to plug and play devices? - I don't know? - I'm a poor VETERAN living almost on Poverty levels unimagined in my youth.
btw, I still gave you a thumbs up, because I honestly think your probably a good guy!
As far as I can tell, Apple Music is the worst sounding streaming service. It's the one that sounds the least authentic to the recording. I's rather listen to Spotify, despite it's lossy codecs. Even better Qobuz if you can live with their UX. I haven't played with Tidal or Amazon HD music.
Computers are not musical devices no matter how much lipstick you put on the pig. There are a number of affordable dedicated music servers on the market with good usable software that will be plug and play and will sound excellent. Why make your life more difficult with a computer.
@Douglas Blake Yes they are, but devoid of bloated operating systems that need to accomplish several different tasks. It's not the same in practice as hooking up a windows/mac machine to a DAC. That's the old school way that existed before we were gifted with streamers. It makes very little sense for most people to still use the old method.
@Douglas Blake Sorry but you're not bursting anything. A dedicated MUSIC server is designed to do 1 thing only. They should be build with sound quality in mind and care taken to maximize that quality within it's price range.
@Douglas Blake My skills with a computer are rudimentary at best. I find most after market software difficult to set-up and use. I am happy with my plug and play server that is easy to use sounds good, has a decent DAC. I am essentially an analog guy so this is strictly for streaming.
@Douglas Blake I would suggest that you find some of Paul's videos on noise in computers because he probably disagrees with you. To me most basic media players are horrible and don't offer remote controls. Even the streaming apps themselves leave a lot to be desired. I'm happy with my simple streaming and storage set-up and don't wish to complicate my life.
@Douglas Blake I believe it is you who is confused about this subject. When you ask for a song to be played, you are not just transferring the file. You are asking for the stream of 1's and 0' that make up that file to be transferred to the input of the DAC. This happens by the stream going from the storage device to the internal data bus, then depending on where the DAC is, sent on an external data bus to the output. If the storage device is external then the data goes externally to the internal bus to be routed to its final destination. If you are performing multiple task the information will go on those same internal data buses at the same time. The CPU is just in charge of the routing so regardless of how hard it is working is irrelevant. All this data floating around on these buses can and is effected.
If digital is so perfect then why are there so many different DACs. They should all sound the same and they don't.
I think you equate sound quality to low distortion and that is just not the case. The low distortion wars were fought in the 80's and 90's and are not a measure of sound quality in analog or digital.
McDonald’s milkshake is a good analogy especially because I’m not contain any milk lol 😅
because of planned obsolescence and lack of software support (updates bricking some macs) i do NOT support or run macs on any of my or my customers systems. the two systems i DO use are suse and windows (not later than win7 because of backwards compatibility problems with later versions of windows). macs are not the workhorse of the industry at ground level.