It's a very interesting topic. As intermediate horns have become obsolete I've forgotten that they even existed. It's interesting to see how they compare to their "professional" counterparts- there's not a whole ton of change that could be made to distinguish between the builds. Now people are looking at stock pro horns as intermediates ands custom as the new pro which is pretty excessive. There's a lot of gold in the used horn category but lots of people feel the need to spend thousands more on brand new!
I’ve had a 608F since eighth grade in 2006 until about a year ago. It served me well four 14 years. I upgraded last year. I think my horn is from 1983. I think it’s a brass slide and crook. The 608 has a velvety tone if you know the quirks of the horn. The valve is a bit sluggish now, but it worked pretty well for when I played it.
I once had a 605F. It’s like a 2B with an F attachment. It’s perfect for young players that can’t reach 6th & 7th positions. Bets student horn ever, and it sound and feels like a 2B.
My 3B had a string linkage on the valve. My 3B also had 2103 stamped on the bell. Brand new in 1989. My daughter has the 508F and (subject to faults of memory) it plays very much the same as my 3B(which I sold out of financial needs 15 years ago 😭). All in all, the 507/508 it's a fantastic step-up horn when you're not rich.
I have both a 3b+f (silver plate) and a 607f in the house. Agree with what you said on the relative dullness of the 607f sound and the resonance of the 3b. The 3b+/f has a richer sound, is easier to colour and you just don’t need to work as hard. Will be interested in your lead pipe experiments - I had just been assuming that the difference in blow is due to the different materials. (Gold brass bell and nickel silver outer slide on the 3b+/f.)
Thanks for the info the 607F always wondered what the difference compared to my 3B. I converted my 3B/F to a 3B/G since I'm not really playing bass parts on it: I use my 4B/F for bass/4th parts. This 3B/G conversion gives me a lot more alternative positions(moves the lower three positions up three positions with the trigger).
I'm really enjoying it. It seems to make a bit fatter sound and still projects- I'm going to put up a video about it soon since I'm using it a bunch at Disney.
It's really hard to beat a 607/608F value-wise: you can get them for $500 or less pretty regularly, and they play really well. Nobody's ever going to be awestruck by your horn, but then again, you don't have to worry about squeezing your $5000 sterling-bell Shires into a too-tight orchestra pit, either! I really like mine, and I'll be curious to hear what you do with the leadpipe on yours.
For now, a Bach 6 1/2AL or 5GS would be pretty much perfect. The mouthpiece I use (Doug Elliot XT104N.E.E4) is basically a fancy 6 1/2AL with a rim that I can use. If I could use any one of my half dozen 6 1/2ALs... I'd just use one of those!
What's really interesting about this to me is that it's impossible to find 3BF+ models, they didn't make them for very long as far as I'm aware, so the fact that they DID make these, and so many of them, is a little funny.
Reviving comments on this video, did you ever change the lead pipe on your 607? I have the same feelings around the stuffiness of the 607 but overall it plays great and meets a specific niche for certain ensembles. I'd love to open it up a little though
On the 607, no. That one actually played just fine as is and i sold it like a dummy. On my 608 (which I got after this video), I did have it changed out because it played MUCH much worse than the 607 did. I think some more modern 60X horns get these really tiny leadpipes (like, smaller than a 2B venturi!) that make them very student-horn-like.
Sadly, no. The 607 (at .525) uses the larger King connector, same one as the 3B+. King is strangely good about designing correctly sized connectors for instruments- they're different on almost every bore size. Good for the horns, I think, but a bummer for those of us that want to change them around.
605s we’re 50s and 60s go to student models (Officially Cleveland brand) and a little like the Olds Ambassadors of the time - sturdy! I’ve owned several straight models and they are good, all around instruments. Never had an f attachment version but a college buddy of mine did. He dug it.
@Aidan Ritchie @SmackBone I figured it was some kind of student and or intermediate level horn, in fact I think it's the smallest tenor I've ever had, 500 bore but the bell was like 7.5 inches... the guy who had it before me played it in college marching band and it saw the bluebonnet, peach, and rose bowls back in the day, still has the stickers on the case. Overall I like it but it comes with the usual King quirks which I'm not the biggest fan of.
I believe, and have never measured, that the metal thickness is the biggest difference on the pro and non pro Kings. I’ve owned several flavors of King small bore (605, 606, 608f, 2B, 3B (f and no f). The pro models just sing differently for someone with a good air stream and warm up and cool down with the player. The non pro models, still good horns, just don’t seem to respond in the same way and have always left me unfulfilled. But, they take a music stand collision waaaay better than the pro models!
It's a very interesting topic. As intermediate horns have become obsolete I've forgotten that they even existed. It's interesting to see how they compare to their "professional" counterparts- there's not a whole ton of change that could be made to distinguish between the builds. Now people are looking at stock pro horns as intermediates ands custom as the new pro which is pretty excessive. There's a lot of gold in the used horn category but lots of people feel the need to spend thousands more on brand new!
I’ve had a 608F since eighth grade in 2006 until about a year ago. It served me well four 14 years. I upgraded last year. I think my horn is from 1983. I think it’s a brass slide and crook. The 608 has a velvety tone if you know the quirks of the horn. The valve is a bit sluggish now, but it worked pretty well for when I played it.
I once had a 605F. It’s like a 2B with an F attachment. It’s perfect for young players that can’t reach 6th & 7th positions. Bets student horn ever, and it sound and feels like a 2B.
They're actually much smaller than a 2B!
My 3B had a string linkage on the valve. My 3B also had 2103 stamped on the bell. Brand new in 1989. My daughter has the 508F and (subject to faults of memory) it plays very much the same as my 3B(which I sold out of financial needs 15 years ago 😭). All in all, the 507/508 it's a fantastic step-up horn when you're not rich.
I have both a 3b+f (silver plate) and a 607f in the house. Agree with what you said on the relative dullness of the 607f sound and the resonance of the 3b. The 3b+/f has a richer sound, is easier to colour and you just don’t need to work as hard. Will be interested in your lead pipe experiments - I had just been assuming that the difference in blow is due to the different materials. (Gold brass bell and nickel silver outer slide on the 3b+/f.)
Thanks for the info the 607F always wondered what the difference compared to my 3B. I converted my 3B/F to a 3B/G since I'm not really playing bass parts on it: I use my 4B/F for bass/4th parts. This 3B/G conversion gives me a lot more alternative positions(moves the lower three positions up three positions with the trigger).
I'm really enjoying it. It seems to make a bit fatter sound and still projects- I'm going to put up a video about it soon since I'm using it a bunch at Disney.
It's really hard to beat a 607/608F value-wise: you can get them for $500 or less pretty regularly, and they play really well. Nobody's ever going to be awestruck by your horn, but then again, you don't have to worry about squeezing your $5000 sterling-bell Shires into a too-tight orchestra pit, either! I really like mine, and I'll be curious to hear what you do with the leadpipe on yours.
You'll be the first to know! I really dig it so far. Feeling better than when I started today. Even, easy to play, nice honest sound.
I’m in the exact opposite direction. I have a 2103PLS that i want to get the bell hacked off and put onto an f attachment. Lol.
I’m a returning student and the 607f is my main horn. Interested in the mouthpiece you recommended
For now, a Bach 6 1/2AL or 5GS would be pretty much perfect. The mouthpiece I use (Doug Elliot XT104N.E.E4) is basically a fancy 6 1/2AL with a rim that I can use. If I could use any one of my half dozen 6 1/2ALs... I'd just use one of those!
What's really interesting about this to me is that it's impossible to find 3BF+ models, they didn't make them for very long as far as I'm aware, so the fact that they DID make these, and so many of them, is a little funny.
Yup! They are rare birds. Very fuzzy on how many they even made with the F attachment.
I've played a 607F in school. Not a bad instrument.
Aidan Ritchie What’s difference between King 3B and King 2103B?
Just the age. 2103 is the more modern designation for the 3B.
Would a 3B+ slide fit on that bell?
Yes - I own both, and the slides are interchangeable.
Reviving comments on this video, did you ever change the lead pipe on your 607? I have the same feelings around the stuffiness of the 607 but overall it plays great and meets a specific niche for certain ensembles. I'd love to open it up a little though
On the 607, no. That one actually played just fine as is and i sold it like a dummy. On my 608 (which I got after this video), I did have it changed out because it played MUCH much worse than the 607 did. I think some more modern 60X horns get these really tiny leadpipes (like, smaller than a 2B venturi!) that make them very student-horn-like.
Hello Aiden,
What are your thoughts on a 1986 King 2107 7B Bass Trombone?
I personally really don't enjoy the 7B... Bit of an odd design and most of them are totally trashed at this point.
One question : are the 3B and the 607 slides interchangeable? Can you put your 3B slide on the 607 bell?
Sadly, no. The 607 (at .525) uses the larger King connector, same one as the 3B+. King is strangely good about designing correctly sized connectors for instruments- they're different on almost every bore size. Good for the horns, I think, but a bummer for those of us that want to change them around.
Quick question but have you ever heard of the King 605? I have one and it's the only one I've ever seen
I think so. Another student model, right?
@@AidanRitchie that sounds right, it's a small bore with an f attachment
@@carlenger9707 with F? Interesting. Not what I expected!
605s we’re 50s and 60s go to student models (Officially Cleveland brand) and a little like the Olds Ambassadors of the time - sturdy! I’ve owned several straight models and they are good, all around instruments. Never had an f attachment version but a college buddy of mine did. He dug it.
@Aidan Ritchie @SmackBone I figured it was some kind of student and or intermediate level horn, in fact I think it's the smallest tenor I've ever had, 500 bore but the bell was like 7.5 inches... the guy who had it before me played it in college marching band and it saw the bluebonnet, peach, and rose bowls back in the day, still has the stickers on the case. Overall I like it but it comes with the usual King quirks which I'm not the biggest fan of.
what is the name of the piece you play at start? sounds beautiful
A Bordogni... Not sure which one, just playing it from memory. I think it's in a different key in the book
@@AidanRitchie Thank you! The melody just sounds familiar to me
Ok
I believe, and have never measured, that the metal thickness is the biggest difference on the pro and non pro Kings. I’ve owned several flavors of King small bore (605, 606, 608f, 2B, 3B (f and no f). The pro models just sing differently for someone with a good air stream and warm up and cool down with the player. The non pro models, still good horns, just don’t seem to respond in the same way and have always left me unfulfilled. But, they take a music stand collision waaaay better than the pro models!
There is something different about it. First stop is a new leadpipe, to see if it can be something easy.
@@AidanRitchie Actually, I'm very interested in your findings. I'll be on the lookout for that video.