Am happy everyone is seeing php was simple, JavaScript ought to simpler since backend js came after PHP but instead it became too complicated. And funny enough people take it's complexity as a positive thing and look down on the simplicity of PHP. I first started with node but once I learned PHP, it was hard to think of building apps with node because I had less headaches.
Web development got overcomplicated simply because programmers are not designers. Most programmers will do anything in their power to produce something quick before actually trying to develop something from scratch, specially if there's graphic design involved, which is what the web is mostly, if not all, made of.
@@CristianKirk I can't argue with the graphic design part. also, I know that using known frameworks make it easy for programmers to catch up on other's projects in a short period of time. but, I think these frameworks are getting bigger and heavier overtime for acceptable reasons (fixing vulnerabilities, adding new features, keeping backward compatibility), this can be an overkill for small and maybe medium websites/apps which in return will drive some programmers to develop their own simplified frameworks so that will not start from scratch in future projects Finally, I'm not totally against these new dev complexity rather than being wise using it. Thanks all for your feedbacks
The same thing over complicated the backend development by turning every system into microservices. Most "websites" don't need to be thick client SPA . It is the same old skilled incompetence issues in human history. “If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.” - Abraham Maslow
I learnt jQuery, then BackboneJS, then AngularJS, then a bit of React and at that point I said, enough f*ck this sh*t. Not interested in learning a new JS framework every 5 minutes. Back to PHP/MySql with good old plain JS. There is more to life than learning about new JS frameworks every day...
I mean, it's been pretty much only react for like 8-9 years. Iterations of PHP frameworks are pretty much the same, there is always something new that's going on and I think always learning is a trait that developers should have. I get the frustration, but ultimately you don't need to "learn every new framework", but instead "learn programming" and "learn basic principles" as you may quickly discover that most of "new frameworks" use the same exact ideas with slightly different taste to it and an additional plot
@@anonymouscitizen4235 For most use cases (especially on its own), React is just overenginering your project. But there's nothing wrong with using it with php.
I also come from the generation where C (Turbo C) was my first ever language that I learned, and PHP was the first language with which I started my IT career and passion for web application development...
Turbo C++ for me. I remember when JavaScript first came out and everyone was confused and thought they needed Java applets. What what? And it went from Perl CGI scripts which got owned all the time to PHP and everything started to improve slowly from there, and it's still just fine. PHP 8 is awesome and so is Laravel. If you must JavaScript, try Vue first or even htmx and some plain JS, don't overcomplicate it to start with.
I’m glad someone else sees this. Also thanks for your react course and node.js I bought them both. When I started web dev in 2001 we used .net and asp pages and did server side vb and client side html side by side in the same asp pages. Recently I used PHP for the first time and went “woah…this is mixed like asp pages”. Then I saw Next.js and had the exact same thought. Wow…I guess bell bottoms and mullets are back in style.
I came from HTML Strict 1.1, where Internet Guides and Stackoverflow and co didn't exist. I feel your pain mate. Nobody new devs will NEVER understand what struggle we went though.
I recommend the AdonisJS framework. You can create server-side rendered web apps or APIs. You can use their own template engine like blade. You can use React, Vue, Svelte or Solid with InertiaJS. And maybe soon a TSX template engine too. Those who like Laravel will certainly enjoy working with AdonisJS. This framework is really fantastic but needs more support.
I love the way you do it. * I've been programming for 20 years. After trying Angular, React, Vue over NodeJS and all their headaches I've decided to go back to simple php + jquery in my projects. Bye.
I have 12 years programming in PHP projects of different complexities and areas and it is for me the best server language in combination with Javascript and GO is simply perfect
I remember scoffing at PHP when I learned Ruby and Rails. My website was slowing down to a crawl with Rails, and debugging it was a nightmare. So I eventually went back to PHP, humbled, and I'm glad Laravel exists.
@@danfg7215 Rails isn't dead, and not only is faster than in previous versions but getting really important new additions like Hotwire so not only you don't need a JS framework to provide interactivity, but you can build from web to iOS/Android apps using the same tools. Also the future for Rails 8 is becoming promising with new features for security and deployment, the latter with Kamal. But nothing of the above should be understood as against PHP, in fact is a really good thing than we are now moving towards a separation and simplification of full stack development, while at the same time the major frameworks (Laravel, Rails, Django, Phoenix, etc) are not only getting better/faster but also providing new features.
@@h0td0g you're right, it's not fair to say it's dead, but your logic doesn't hold. Rails is losing popularity over the years, while Laravel has been rising in popularity and maturity. I still use and love Ruby as a sysadmin, but PHP is faster, more mature, and more integrated and adapted for web use.
PHP, Bootstrap and JavaScript are enough to build a modern website. The beauty about PHP is its function library. Secondly it has been around for so long, you get a lot of support on internet. It's a joy to work with PHP.
I started with PHP years ago like you (fellow old man) and I still use it today. The new languages are great, but I've never needed to move. I built and run a successful saas on PHP and it's just fine. I'm not saying it's the best, but it just works. And it's been around forever, which means it's supported and documation is everywhere
I am so happy to know you've succeed ran your SaaS with PHP. While me, as a PHP dev still confuse what stack should I choose to build the SaaS. Because there are so many thoughts to not make PHP to develop SaaS. I feel excited!
Php is perfect for the most common tasks developers need. Out of the box you have built in functions for Date math, object/array manipulation, data validation & sanitation and currency arithmetic. Each of those requires a separate library or more to do in js/node environments, when building small apps and one off sites that are only pushing blog/news/comments it just works, you then just use js for UI animations and ajax content.
As a developer, we always devide problems to smaller ones and also we do it with code and the idea of combination of front-end and back-end can add complexity and more process to compile thease code to be usable in server and client. Because the base is seperate you need a server code and client code even if you combine them together in development you have to separate them for production mode
Bro, i use php in almost all my web app projects, i use Laravel and i also add javascript to Handle AJAX requests, and is easy for me to work with theses technologies. PHP never dies.
i left the PHP world long time a go and got in the asp and angular stormy world but they have a huge advantage in Fintech companies, so going with the market demands is the true source of info for me. thank you ( Js and c#)
Two years ago, I thought for two semesters at my old high school. After class, I was talking to the teacher who was also administrating the whole mess - To make the story short, after 16 years there was still code running I wrote as a teenager.
i am currentyl using PHP at work and building a personal project with nextjs 14 RSC and server actions, and its very similar but entirely different. i feel the new stack is much more streamlined. with PHP you need to setup a lot of stuff to get a proper experience of developing server driven web apps, but after going through with it, for me at least, the result is very similar to the new stack. you render the server side of the app, then do client interactions and client-server interactions. the methods are similar, but new its all integrated and its much faster to start with. but comapred with PHP using a framework like Laravel, the experience is so much the same it doesnt really matter any more. its a qeustion of what is more convenient for you and which ecosystem you prefer.
As a solo developer as well not going to the complication setup with react, I do go PHP because it is much easier to scale migrate from different server setup. As Max say I combine my PHP with JavaScript for Dynamic client side task. For internal server side task PHP will do all of it with much better security connecting with API and database.
Yeah, with htmx and even the advent of react, made me question this as well. I started with PHP4 and then slapped to learn PHP5 , converting sql statements to prepared sql statements. I did LAMP stack :P
@@al3nmicl Codigniter, currently version 4, is doing ok. All my web apps are powered by it and I'm very happy with performance + no downtimes. Sticking to one framework against all the shit course sellers throw at you is a key to success ;).
Web developer since 2005. I'm fed up with how the industry only ever gets more complex. Back then, our preferred deployment method was manually uploading changed files via ftp... I recently saw a junior web dev position requiring 3 years of kubernetes.
Glad I stopped going nuts over frontend and frameworks like NextJS and moved on to PHP with Laravel. There is InertiaJS which you can use with a frontend frameworks like Vue or React leveraging full-blown PHP from the backend.
PHP is literally a templating language on its own. You don't need a separate templating engine to use it for that. I would love to see a better programmer than me create components using one of the front end frameworks compared with using PHP as a templating language, and see just how much worse or better each one is. For rendering mid-sized components, an inventory item card for example, PHP is extremely easy to pull that in. Combining a bunch of smaller components together into a larger component may be where it would be harder due to all of the includes that would be needed. But, I'm not positive it couldn't be done in a more elegant way than that.
@@florisvandenberg7424 You aren't supposed to mix it in order to use it as a templating language. You write the HTML and you use placeholders in each area where PHP is going to put any dynamic data. PHP pulls in that HTML file and replaces the placeholders with the data. That keeps the HTML and the PHP completely separate. You can even do this on a "component" basis instead of just using full HTML pages, as long as you pull the components in and replace the placeholders in the proper order.
@@JasonJones1162 What you're describing is a custom template engine. The purpose of a template engine is to separate logic and html. Your solution provides that albeit in very limited form. A 'real' template engine also provides limited control flow (if, foreach, etc)
i started with php , and continue working with php and bunch of other stuff .. but i think php is still better option for building many websites and backend. its very cool and simple ..
Totally agree. I was recently involved with a next project, where I usually work with Laravel, and found it extremely lacking compared to laravel. So much spaghetti code was written to just do simple things like seed a database, create models and what not.
I loved PHP. During this, he became an object oriental from 4 to 5, and then became super fast from version 7. Regardless of this, today I would only touch it if the framework was symfony. I really liked javascript. I started my modern front end with vue / nuxt js and I've let it go. As a frontend, only angular or react / next can be considered on the client side, and on the basis of node js, my favorite is the nest js framework. All this, of course, running in docker.
After years of slinging React, Vue and Node. These days if a site doesn’t need a heck of a lot of front end functionality and has a simple or no API then I will reach for PHP and jQuery when I need simple, fast performing sites. The older I get the more simplicity I crave. Although, I wish Laravel had not gotten rid of their small brother framework: Lumen.
Sad today's world hate simple straight forward stuff like PHP. Or else if we love simplicity why wouldn't we just stick to 2 genders but know we like 1100 gender and counting. Gender ideology must have inspired js frameworks
Php and vanilla Js for me. The fact is the end user does not care what tech stack you have used for your saas or website as long as it works. Some of these Js frameworks are just a huge pain go work with them. You have to istall tons of libraries to get some things working... things that come natively packed in php.
Laravel actually uses many Symfony components under the hood. There are many developers who eventually migrate from Laravel to Symfony, but it's rarely the other way around. Laravel is more popular because it's easier to learn, but at some point senior developers need something more mature and robust and start looking at Symfony. Laravel is extremely popular because it has great marketing and learning materials, Symfony being a bit more complex to master, but there is a reason why most PHP projects like CMS, ecommerce, etc. use Symfony as their core or many of its modules for functionality @@diegoc3749
Clientside and serverside JS are nowhere near the same. There's heaps of limitations in V8, many of which can literally never be solved due to the difference in environments.
@@Dylan_thebrand_slayer_Mulveiny The biggest pain is dealing with other libraries that don’t consider server side rendering in my experience. Otherwise I rarely have to work around anything
I didn't start with PHP, I'm pretty young (18) and an aspiring developer. I like to experiment with a lot of things PHP being one of them and in a lot of cases I actually find myself preferring PHP over JavaScript or even Python too. Call be a masochist but I don't know the language just kind of clicks with my thought process. People say they have issues reading PHP and I can totally see how that can be. But for me I read it just fine even my old code after not having touched PHP for a month or so. Plus, adding comments I think can help with any language which I try to do as much as I can. An astricts to this however is that I've ever only needed to use PHP for server related things as it was built for. I don't think in my right mind I'd ever consider doing something else with PHP. Moral of the programming journey for anyone whose getting started or trying to fulfill their interests. No matter what someone says about a language, if it works for you it works for you. You won't get anywhere trying to find a language that everyone likes because that simply just does not exist. Infact you should be starting with the question of what can I use to get to what I want. What tools are available that best help me reach my goal, and work backwards from there.
I share most the same thoughts, the biggest difference between Nodejs frameworks (next, nuxt, sveltekit..) and "traditional" framework (Laravel, Rails..) is really the template engine. (1) while the traditional framework forces developer to use different template engines 1 for front + 1 for back. The mix of both template engines is often "messy" (hard to maintain) (2) the Nodejs frameworks share the same template engine when rendering page on Server side or Frontend side => it is a lot more convient to share the same rendering logic between front and back. I don't consider *.svelte or *.jsx as Javascript / Html / Css. Evens the syntax are 99% similaire, they are still different language. in case (2) the barrier between Front and Back is blur but The framework would still force developer to make responsibility seperation between Server and Client because it is just unavoidable. We still have to distinguish between Javascripts on server side and JavaScript on browser side, The blurry barrier usually make things harder for inexperience developers.
how nice is to hear a real instructor not talking down on PHP, he truly know what he talks about. Not like some Andrei who is a joke of an instructor and coder.
Thank you for bringing this topic. I have started using nextJs recently and I had the same feelings as yours like the php,jsp era coming back? There are definitely benefits of server side rendering and nextJs enables mixing between server and client. It's cool but also causes confusion. Each step with NextJs, I revalidate my SPA development habit is good or not which leads my implementation time slower. I think it'd be awesome to have what are the real world examples of mixing server/client side components.
I must admit that sometimes it’s difficult to choose if it’s going to be a client or server component and have to reorganize the structure while working with nextjs. But once you get a hold of it, it’s not a big problem. Other than that it’s been a joy and mostly surprising experience for large projects. Even though the question of “are we going back to php days?” might look valid, the experience of React and Nextjs is far superior. Simply one or two lines of code you can decide if it’s going to run on server or it’s full clientside idea works like magic. Currently only problem is lighthouse score in my opinion. Just because google and lighthouse are pushing it too hard, we have to use too much dynamic imports or remove animation frameworks (framer motion) occasionally and switch to css solutions. On the other hand, if you’re a django or lavarel developer, htmx looks a like a viable alternative (mostly great for dashboards or simple projects). But I think the future is NextJS, Astro, Svelte and similar modern frameworks.
I'm no dev, just was always kind of interested. x) I started playing with html and later I learned some basic php-stuff. For some Reason I never was interested into JavaScript since I thought: What about people who disable JS in their browser? Long story short: I was interested in some coding but never had ideas for content or was good in designing (graphics/stylesheets) and thus everything I made was boring and ugly so I did not continue… x) Years later (now!) I stumbled over htmx (wich is basically an JS-Library, so much for „what if..“ xD) and play around using it with PHP. Its kind of fun and somewhat exciting but I have the same problems as back then: no idea for content and design. So I once again prefer to spent my time on playing Video Games instead of „creating something“. x)
@@_DATA_EXPUNGED_ the reason is, you encounter problems that are relevant to what you build and if you solve them the solution will stick. Solutions to irrelevant problems do not stick ... most of the time.
nothing like PHP, MySQL, Apache, Linux with core HTML5, JQuery with CSS - all other newer web development technologies look like rocket 🚀 science with non practical javascript implementations
First, I'm on the same timeline with you, so I watched, used but not trusted (especialy latest) javascript expansion as the 'best' tool for anything. Second, I've herd this argument of 'the same language front and back ends' as the easiest way to do .... but that would be true if there would be javascript: instead all the frameworks starting with those before Angular (such as Backbone) and up to today's Vue, React, next , etc, all are reinventing and forcing own syntaxes, rules, formats, file extensions and blending Typescript in between. Third: recall that all the big online names of today started as php websites; so as a piece of advice (for newcomers) , start simple and you'll be surprised how far you'll get until fancy architectures and js libs and frameworks may be needed.
Hello, I have been involved with Java and JavaScript frameworks for about two years to learn the easiest way to build a web. Finally, I came to the conclusion that a level knowledge of JavaScript along with PHP can be much better than React or Angular to start working. Those who know object orientation, in my opinion, if they have problems with JS frameworks, they should definitely talk about PHP.
Tbh i think if you're the average professional developer merely making bog standard websites for companies or basic e-commerce, things have not and will not change and there is really not objective advantages that apply to every scenario to doing it one way over another. That's why we still require humans to make decisions about the software, you're supposed to analyze the requirement and decide on the best approach. In one company i've worked at Javascript frameworks were outright banned due to Analytics providers not working seamlessly with them, analytics were a MAJOR deal for this company so the apps had to be server rendered, and the easiest way to do that for the developers there was to just use Laravel since they were all acquainted with PHP, so we did and it all worked (and works) fine. So do what makes sense for your context, figuring that out is 90% of the work a developer is supposed to do and why AI isn't going to replace you anytime soon
Ich würd mich zu sehr dafür interessieren wie du damals den Weg zum Informatik Tutor eingeschlagen hast. Würd gern die ganze Backstory hören. Wann, wieso, was hast du in der zwischenzeit gemacht :D
I am new to nextjs, and I like the integrated full-stack dev part about it. But I also feel that because of its serverless architecture it poses a lot of limitations. You have to think away from nextjs if you want to build a big projects. I think something similar to nextjs without the serverless would be worth trying.
The problem I see is that many domain specific solutions are enforced into large userbase frameworks instead of keeping them simple and slim. So we have to adjust to certain ways of work to do our simple stuff just because the frameworks were built in a way to support many complex cases. That's one problem; Other thing is that these frameworks have been pushed by big tech as a must, leveraging our FOMO.
PHP is awesome. I have been developing with it since the 90's and it has come a long way. It is easy to place your files on the server and it just works. It's fast, feature-rich, and mature, and also can be used to make powerful CLI applications. It supports multithreading and it's easy to make powerful, fast, reliable daemons.
we had a full CRM built in-house on LAMP; stability, speed, simplicity, one point of truth, and very very cheap until the we decided to go Salesforce, lol
We mainly use javascript and react to not load the whole page again which makes a single page website more interesting.i dont know if php can do it???.if php can do it why would facebook create react???
you could basically do that 15 years go, they moment ajax came along. just inject the pages into the dom. and they created react because they wanted a good working client side library, with reusable modular components. phps performance sucked rly rly bad in the past
At least for small projects I went all way to PHP. For large projects - something JVM based. Haven't tried running JS on server side at scale, wonder how that works...
Some of us started with ASP (Active Server Pages) and then moved to WebForms, then MVC before going to SPAs. It is a bit funny that, like you said we came around a full circle 🤣😂
The problem with JS is the need to compile it. In bigger projects it is a huge pain, especially if used with webpack. In some projects I need to wait 10 minutes or more so I could finally use it. It looks better now with vite but still, I prefer working with php for backend. Beside this, working on JS projects is way more complicated than few years ago. It becomes a rocket science xD
Yes Laravel is a master piece. Still it is good to create your own mini php model controller route framework if you prefer to. Also implementing JWT auth makes it a great compliment to create secure APIs
Can someone give more information about Laravel and Inertia with SSR and more specifically the impact on SEO? I like js frameworks because of component reuse and state management,but it seems to be a problem especially when SEO is important for the company. Laravel seems pretty well organized to me, stable with a great community.
I think we over complicated web development in the past few years.
Thanks Max!
Man, you said it right!! Web development has been over-engineered!!
Am happy everyone is seeing php was simple, JavaScript ought to simpler since backend js came after PHP but instead it became too complicated. And funny enough people take it's complexity as a positive thing and look down on the simplicity of PHP. I first started with node but once I learned PHP, it was hard to think of building apps with node because I had less headaches.
Web development got overcomplicated simply because programmers are not designers. Most programmers will do anything in their power to produce something quick before actually trying to develop something from scratch, specially if there's graphic design involved, which is what the web is mostly, if not all, made of.
@@CristianKirk I can't argue with the graphic design part.
also, I know that using known frameworks make it easy for programmers to catch up on other's projects in a short period of time.
but, I think these frameworks are getting bigger and heavier overtime for acceptable reasons (fixing vulnerabilities, adding new features, keeping backward compatibility), this can be an overkill for small and maybe medium websites/apps which in return will drive some programmers to develop their own simplified frameworks so that will not start from scratch in future projects
Finally, I'm not totally against these new dev complexity rather than being wise using it.
Thanks all for your feedbacks
The same thing over complicated the backend development by turning every system into microservices. Most "websites" don't need to be thick client SPA . It is the same old skilled incompetence issues in human history. “If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.” - Abraham Maslow
I learnt jQuery, then BackboneJS, then AngularJS, then a bit of React and at that point I said, enough f*ck this sh*t. Not interested in learning a new JS framework every 5 minutes. Back to PHP/MySql with good old plain JS. There is more to life than learning about new JS frameworks every day...
I mean, it's been pretty much only react for like 8-9 years. Iterations of PHP frameworks are pretty much the same, there is always something new that's going on and I think always learning is a trait that developers should have.
I get the frustration, but ultimately you don't need to "learn every new framework", but instead "learn programming" and "learn basic principles" as you may quickly discover that most of "new frameworks" use the same exact ideas with slightly different taste to it and an additional plot
I've always felt that the least amount of javascript to get the job done, was the best amount of javascript 😉
But the thing is next js is the new php and it’s gonna dominate the web development next 20 years , so if you wanna make money then take your sit 😂
i thought i was the only one...the only thing is you may not be able to get Jobs
I know php, jquery bootstrap, but all these dev jobs started requesting for more and then I reached a point and also said fuck it
Php is making a massive comeback thanks to Laravel! MARK!
Symfony > Laravel
@@hermes6910 No
Can we combine php with react or is it an overkill ??
@@anonymouscitizen4235 For most use cases (especially on its own), React is just overenginering your project.
But there's nothing wrong with using it with php.
@@anonymouscitizen4235 ofc , try laravel with ineritia and react
I also come from the generation where C (Turbo C) was my first ever language that I learned, and PHP was the first language with which I started my IT career and passion for web application development...
Turbo C++ for me. I remember when JavaScript first came out and everyone was confused and thought they needed Java applets. What what? And it went from Perl CGI scripts which got owned all the time to PHP and everything started to improve slowly from there, and it's still just fine. PHP 8 is awesome and so is Laravel. If you must JavaScript, try Vue first or even htmx and some plain JS, don't overcomplicate it to start with.
I’m glad someone else sees this. Also thanks for your react course and node.js I bought them both. When I started web dev in 2001 we used .net and asp pages and did server side vb and client side html side by side in the same asp pages. Recently I used PHP for the first time and went “woah…this is mixed like asp pages”. Then I saw Next.js and had the exact same thought. Wow…I guess bell bottoms and mullets are back in style.
As a developer with 20 years of daily experience, I think that Php is still the best way to develop web applications today
I came from HTML Strict 1.1, where Internet Guides and Stackoverflow and co didn't exist. I feel your pain mate. Nobody new devs will NEVER understand what struggle we went though.
Perl, ASP, and Cold Fusion were my first tools to build dynamic websites. But, yeah, then PHP took over websites development like a huge storm
I recommend the AdonisJS framework. You can create server-side rendered web apps or APIs. You can use their own template engine like blade. You can use React, Vue, Svelte or Solid with InertiaJS. And maybe soon a TSX template engine too. Those who like Laravel will certainly enjoy working with AdonisJS. This framework is really fantastic but needs more support.
It's crap, very weak production-wise.
@@vinniv6806 can you explain more
@@vinniv6806 which is better
I love the way you do it. * I've been programming for 20 years. After trying Angular, React, Vue over NodeJS and all their headaches I've decided to go back to simple php + jquery in my projects. Bye.
I have 12 years programming in PHP projects of different complexities and areas and it is for me the best server language in combination with Javascript and GO is simply perfect
Amazing !
Which framework of PHP do you recommend to learn first ? I am frontend developer with JS/React/TS.
@@juanortegaa6916go doesn’t need the shit like php.
I want to know the same as first comment :)
@@juanortegaa6916 Laravel as Gateway and Fiber with Go
I remember scoffing at PHP when I learned Ruby and Rails. My website was slowing down to a crawl with Rails, and debugging it was a nightmare. So I eventually went back to PHP, humbled, and I'm glad Laravel exists.
Skill issue?
@@gamerneversleep4200 right, that explains why Rails is dead, ppl lacked skills
@@danfg7215 Rails isn't dead, and not only is faster than in previous versions but getting really important new additions like Hotwire so not only you don't need a JS framework to provide interactivity, but you can build from web to iOS/Android apps using the same tools. Also the future for Rails 8 is becoming promising with new features for security and deployment, the latter with Kamal.
But nothing of the above should be understood as against PHP, in fact is a really good thing than we are now moving towards a separation and simplification of full stack development, while at the same time the major frameworks (Laravel, Rails, Django, Phoenix, etc) are not only getting better/faster but also providing new features.
If rails is dead, laravel is equally dead.
@@h0td0g you're right, it's not fair to say it's dead, but your logic doesn't hold. Rails is losing popularity over the years, while Laravel has been rising in popularity and maturity. I still use and love Ruby as a sysadmin, but PHP is faster, more mature, and more integrated and adapted for web use.
PHP, Bootstrap and JavaScript are enough to build a modern website. The beauty about PHP is its function library. Secondly it has been around for so long, you get a lot of support on internet. It's a joy to work with PHP.
I started with PHP years ago like you (fellow old man) and I still use it today.
The new languages are great, but I've never needed to move. I built and run a successful saas on PHP and it's just fine.
I'm not saying it's the best, but it just works. And it's been around forever, which means it's supported and documation is everywhere
As long as your web app/website works.. the end user does not really care what is working in the backend.
I am so happy to know you've succeed ran your SaaS with PHP. While me, as a PHP dev still confuse what stack should I choose to build the SaaS. Because there are so many thoughts to not make PHP to develop SaaS. I feel excited!
Where do I know this guy from, I know that voice... oh yeah, from a React course I did on udemy a long time ago! Nice to see you here, Max!
Nice to meet you here, too!
Yeah react and flutter in udemy, he’s the best , I took his course, but they are too many I haven’t finished them 😅
Php is perfect for the most common tasks developers need. Out of the box you have built in functions for Date math, object/array manipulation, data validation & sanitation and currency arithmetic. Each of those requires a separate library or more to do in js/node environments, when building small apps and one off sites that are only pushing blog/news/comments it just works, you then just use js for UI animations and ajax content.
Every modern language has the same toolkit in the standard library.
Symfony - a PHP framework- is quite awesome, especially with new versions of php getting quite elegant
As a developer, we always devide problems to smaller ones and also we do it with code and the idea of combination of front-end and back-end can add complexity and more process to compile thease code to be usable in server and client. Because the base is seperate you need a server code and client code even if you combine them together in development you have to separate them for production mode
When are you releasing a course on PHP
Bro, i use php in almost all my web app projects, i use Laravel and i also add javascript to Handle AJAX requests, and is easy for me to work with theses technologies. PHP never dies.
definitely!
i left the PHP world long time a go and got in the asp and angular stormy world but they have a huge advantage in Fintech companies, so going with the market demands is the true source of info for me. thank you ( Js and c#)
Two years ago, I thought for two semesters at my old high school. After class, I was talking to the teacher who was also administrating the whole mess - To make the story short, after 16 years there was still code running I wrote as a teenager.
I started my programming career 11 years ago using PHP for 6 years. Must to say is easy to learn.
Max, I hope you are still part of Academind, one of the most advanced channels for software development.
Yes, I am!
@@maximilian-schwarzmueller huh, great!)
i am currentyl using PHP at work and building a personal project with nextjs 14 RSC and server actions, and its very similar but entirely different. i feel the new stack is much more streamlined. with PHP you need to setup a lot of stuff to get a proper experience of developing server driven web apps, but after going through with it, for me at least, the result is very similar to the new stack. you render the server side of the app, then do client interactions and client-server interactions. the methods are similar, but new its all integrated and its much faster to start with. but comapred with PHP using a framework like Laravel, the experience is so much the same it doesnt really matter any more. its a qeustion of what is more convenient for you and which ecosystem you prefer.
As a solo developer as well not going to the complication setup with react, I do go PHP because it is much easier to scale migrate from different server setup. As Max say I combine my PHP with JavaScript for Dynamic client side task. For internal server side task PHP will do all of it with much better security connecting with API and database.
Yeah, with htmx and even the advent of react, made me question this as well. I started with PHP4 and then slapped to learn PHP5 , converting sql statements to prepared sql statements. I did LAMP stack :P
I've started with PHP 🔥
In fact, my profile is to work with Laravel and ReactJS ❤🔥
In 2005 we had codeigniter with the MVC pattern on the backend, what is the improved and modern nextjs version of that today?
I have been using codeIgniter for some 20+ years, it is fast as a shark, no chenges needed.
Ahh man, codeigniter! That was the first framework I ever used... what a blast from the past! I wonder whatever happened to it?
@@al3nmicl Codigniter, currently version 4, is doing ok. All my web apps are powered by it and I'm very happy with performance + no downtimes. Sticking to one framework against all the shit course sellers throw at you is a key to success ;).
Web developer since 2005. I'm fed up with how the industry only ever gets more complex. Back then, our preferred deployment method was manually uploading changed files via ftp... I recently saw a junior web dev position requiring 3 years of kubernetes.
Glad I stopped going nuts over frontend and frameworks like NextJS and moved on to PHP with Laravel. There is InertiaJS which you can use with a frontend frameworks like Vue or React leveraging full-blown PHP from the backend.
I was thinking of trying Inertia, but it seems to be a problem with SSR...
@@todormarkov2860 Problem of what sort? Check out the doc for the SSR.
@@todormarkov2860It supports SSR
Oh, the good ole days of PHP back in the day. It's was my first web programming language back in the year 2000. Can't believe it's been 24 years. 🤣😁
crazy enough there are people out there still opposing PHP thinking it works the same as it did back then.
PHP is literally a templating language on its own. You don't need a separate templating engine to use it for that. I would love to see a better programmer than me create components using one of the front end frameworks compared with using PHP as a templating language, and see just how much worse or better each one is. For rendering mid-sized components, an inventory item card for example, PHP is extremely easy to pull that in. Combining a bunch of smaller components together into a larger component may be where it would be harder due to all of the includes that would be needed. But, I'm not positive it couldn't be done in a more elegant way than that.
JS/TS still have imports, it's all the same crap.
In PHP you might add events and use listeners for tricky components
"You don't need a separate templating engine to use it for that" Wrong. Mixing html and php quickly becomes unreadable. Been there. Done that.
@@florisvandenberg7424 You aren't supposed to mix it in order to use it as a templating language. You write the HTML and you use placeholders in each area where PHP is going to put any dynamic data. PHP pulls in that HTML file and replaces the placeholders with the data. That keeps the HTML and the PHP completely separate. You can even do this on a "component" basis instead of just using full HTML pages, as long as you pull the components in and replace the placeholders in the proper order.
@@JasonJones1162 What you're describing is a custom template engine. The purpose of a template engine is to separate logic and html. Your solution provides that albeit in very limited form. A 'real' template engine also provides limited control flow (if, foreach, etc)
i started with php , and continue working with php and bunch of other stuff .. but i think php is still better option for building many websites and backend. its very cool and simple ..
PHP can be used on both client side and server-side... try Laravel and Livewire
I don't understand why the hate on php, especially from people that never touched the language.
Totally agree. I was recently involved with a next project, where I usually work with Laravel, and found it extremely lacking compared to laravel. So much spaghetti code was written to just do simple things like seed a database, create models and what not.
Try t3 stack
I loved PHP. During this, he became an object oriental from 4 to 5, and then became super fast from version 7. Regardless of this, today I would only touch it if the framework was symfony. I really liked javascript. I started my modern front end with vue / nuxt js and I've let it go. As a frontend, only angular or react / next can be considered on the client side, and on the basis of node js, my favorite is the nest js framework. All this, of course, running in docker.
After years of slinging React, Vue and Node.
These days if a site doesn’t need a heck of a lot of front end functionality and has a simple or no API then I will reach for PHP and jQuery when I need simple, fast performing sites.
The older I get the more simplicity I crave.
Although, I wish Laravel had not gotten rid of their small brother framework: Lumen.
I can definitely relate with this simplicity take!
In your opinion, how about the Slim PHP framework, can it replace Lumen ??
I can't count how many projects I did in the XAMPP. Super underrated language after version 7.
So true.
I just started with PHP and yeah I am really enjoying it. Already build a full login and registration system
Sad today's world hate simple straight forward stuff like PHP. Or else if we love simplicity why wouldn't we just stick to 2 genders but know we like 1100 gender and counting. Gender ideology must have inspired js frameworks
Php and vanilla Js for me.
The fact is the end user does not care what tech stack you have used for your saas or website as long as it works.
Some of these Js frameworks are just a huge pain go work with them. You have to istall tons of libraries to get some things working... things that come natively packed in php.
PHP with Symfony is truly a magical web builder
until Laravel came out
@@diegoc3749 Have you tried Symfony, on a complex API, not the typical CRUD API?
Symfony is a good framework. much better than Laravel. I wish people would stop being sucked into using Laravel
Laravel actually uses many Symfony components under the hood. There are many developers who eventually migrate from Laravel to Symfony, but it's rarely the other way around. Laravel is more popular because it's easier to learn, but at some point senior developers need something more mature and robust and start looking at Symfony. Laravel is extremely popular because it has great marketing and learning materials, Symfony being a bit more complex to master, but there is a reason why most PHP projects like CMS, ecommerce, etc. use Symfony as their core or many of its modules for functionality @@diegoc3749
@@RichardCatto what are the advantages?
The biggest advantage to server side JavaScript isn’t that it’s the same language as the client but rather I can reuse the same components on both
you can reuse components that are impossible to test? thats interesting xD
Clientside and serverside JS are nowhere near the same. There's heaps of limitations in V8, many of which can literally never be solved due to the difference in environments.
@@Dylan_thebrand_slayer_Mulveiny React Server components in Nextjs are surprisingly seamless and easy to use once you understand the fundamentals.
@@ScottMaday You're still working around edge cases caused by the differences in environments, regardlexs of what framework you use.
@@Dylan_thebrand_slayer_Mulveiny The biggest pain is dealing with other libraries that don’t consider server side rendering in my experience. Otherwise I rarely have to work around anything
I didn't start with PHP, I'm pretty young (18) and an aspiring developer. I like to experiment with a lot of things PHP being one of them and in a lot of cases I actually find myself preferring PHP over JavaScript or even Python too. Call be a masochist but I don't know the language just kind of clicks with my thought process. People say they have issues reading PHP and I can totally see how that can be. But for me I read it just fine even my old code after not having touched PHP for a month or so. Plus, adding comments I think can help with any language which I try to do as much as I can.
An astricts to this however is that I've ever only needed to use PHP for server related things as it was built for. I don't think in my right mind I'd ever consider doing something else with PHP.
Moral of the programming journey for anyone whose getting started or trying to fulfill their interests. No matter what someone says about a language, if it works for you it works for you. You won't get anywhere trying to find a language that everyone likes because that simply just does not exist. Infact you should be starting with the question of what can I use to get to what I want. What tools are available that best help me reach my goal, and work backwards from there.
I wish you success in your journey!
If you like php more than python, then you should try C/C++
We are similar age and yes we all used to do PHP back then
I use Mamp right now.
ha ha, used to? I have been doing it for 28 years, it is been a gold mine, and still is, in fact it is better than ever has been ...
I share most the same thoughts, the biggest difference between Nodejs frameworks (next, nuxt, sveltekit..) and "traditional" framework (Laravel, Rails..) is really the template engine.
(1) while the traditional framework forces developer to use different template engines 1 for front + 1 for back. The mix of both template engines is often "messy" (hard to maintain)
(2) the Nodejs frameworks share the same template engine when rendering page on Server side or Frontend side => it is a lot more convient to share the same rendering logic between front and back.
I don't consider *.svelte or *.jsx as Javascript / Html / Css. Evens the syntax are 99% similaire, they are still different language.
in case (2) the barrier between Front and Back is blur but The framework would still force developer to make responsibility seperation between Server and Client because it is just unavoidable. We still have to distinguish between Javascripts on server side and JavaScript on browser side, The blurry barrier usually make things harder for inexperience developers.
how nice is to hear a real instructor not talking down on PHP, he truly know what he talks about. Not like some Andrei who is a joke of an instructor and coder.
Thank you for bringing this topic.
I have started using nextJs recently and I had the same feelings as yours like the php,jsp era coming back?
There are definitely benefits of server side rendering and nextJs enables mixing between server and client. It's cool but also causes confusion.
Each step with NextJs, I revalidate my SPA development habit is good or not which leads my implementation time slower.
I think it'd be awesome to have what are the real world examples of mixing server/client side components.
Fuck next js .
Max, you look great brother. Watched you many years ago and you look the same age. Appreciate this video.
Javascript also has its own Laravel-like framework called AdonisJS, instead of using Blade, they have Edge with very similar syntax of Blade
Yep, that's true! Played around a bit with it + liked it quite a lot.
Adonisjs is the best nodejs backend framework 🙌🙌
I must admit that sometimes it’s difficult to choose if it’s going to be a client or server component and have to reorganize the structure while working with nextjs. But once you get a hold of it, it’s not a big problem. Other than that it’s been a joy and mostly surprising experience for large projects. Even though the question of “are we going back to php days?” might look valid, the experience of React and Nextjs is far superior. Simply one or two lines of code you can decide if it’s going to run on server or it’s full clientside idea works like magic.
Currently only problem is lighthouse score in my opinion. Just because google and lighthouse are pushing it too hard, we have to use too much dynamic imports or remove animation frameworks (framer motion) occasionally and switch to css solutions.
On the other hand, if you’re a django or lavarel developer, htmx looks a like a viable alternative (mostly great for dashboards or simple projects). But I think the future is NextJS, Astro, Svelte and similar modern frameworks.
the only reason to use server side rendering was in the past the fact that it helps SEO, can you give me some extra examples why now?
@@SXsoft99 Another benefit of server side rendering is reducing the side of bundle on the frontend
@@moka7986 code splitting too
I'm no dev, just was always kind of interested. x) I started playing with html and later I learned some basic php-stuff. For some Reason I never was interested into JavaScript since I thought: What about people who disable JS in their browser?
Long story short: I was interested in some coding but never had ideas for content or was good in designing (graphics/stylesheets) and thus everything I made was boring and ugly so I did not continue… x)
Years later (now!) I stumbled over htmx (wich is basically an JS-Library, so much for „what if..“ xD) and play around using it with PHP. Its kind of fun and somewhat exciting but I have the same problems as back then: no idea for content and design.
So I once again prefer to spent my time on playing Video Games instead of „creating something“. x)
😅same situation but I haven't called it a quit, don't think I will since there are other creatives around who can give ideas
I've been learning html css and js what's next? Which language or framework should i learn?
on frontend you should go for react and for backend go for nodejs express (node framework) or nest(same nodejs framwork)
no next, build your project and see what's missing, on that basis you find out where to go next.
Build something. That's the most important part of learning. Build something entirely by yourself and don't go with any tutorials or copilot.
@@_DATA_EXPUNGED_ the reason is, you encounter problems that are relevant to what you build and if you solve them the solution will stick. Solutions to irrelevant problems do not stick ... most of the time.
I love PHP and have for a long time, it’s always made sense to me.
Everything is simple.
Everything is hard.
Everything is knowledge.
Everything is perspective.
Back on my day, we wrote code in binary on parchment paper. Naturally, we used ravens and pidgons as servers to transport our code.
nothing like PHP, MySQL, Apache, Linux with core HTML5, JQuery with CSS - all other newer web development technologies look like rocket 🚀 science with non practical javascript implementations
First, I'm on the same timeline with you, so I watched, used but not trusted (especialy latest) javascript expansion as the 'best' tool for anything.
Second, I've herd this argument of 'the same language front and back ends' as the easiest way to do .... but that would be true if there would be javascript: instead all the frameworks starting with those before Angular (such as Backbone) and up to today's Vue, React, next , etc, all are reinventing and forcing own syntaxes, rules, formats, file extensions and blending Typescript in between.
Third: recall that all the big online names of today started as php websites; so as a piece of advice (for newcomers) , start simple and you'll be surprised how far you'll get until fancy architectures and js libs and frameworks may be needed.
The comments in this video make me realize just how entry level the majority of the development community really is.
Can you elaborate more?
It's the frontend web devs. Since they start right away with a frontend frameworks and don't experiment outside of web dev.
What do you expect lol, most entry/junior web developers (here) are all coming from modern frontend frameworks.
True!!!
Arrogance. Too much of it in the tech world
Typescript + Angular + Angular Material are a beautiful match for frontend development.
How does this integrated approach impact a microservices architecture, where the idea generally is to implement decoupled services.
I’d like your thoughts on The Boring JavaScript Stack which in my opinion is the most complete solution for building fullstack JavaScript applications
Exactly what i have been thinking...back in circle.
Laravel 11 with Breeze/Inertia/Livewire running on PHP 8.2 is great
Hello, I have been involved with Java and JavaScript frameworks for about two years to learn the easiest way to build a web. Finally, I came to the conclusion that a level knowledge of JavaScript along with PHP can be much better than React or Angular to start working. Those who know object orientation, in my opinion, if they have problems with JS frameworks, they should definitely talk about PHP.
Tbh i think if you're the average professional developer merely making bog standard websites for companies or basic e-commerce, things have not and will not change and there is really not objective advantages that apply to every scenario to doing it one way over another. That's why we still require humans to make decisions about the software, you're supposed to analyze the requirement and decide on the best approach.
In one company i've worked at Javascript frameworks were outright banned due to Analytics providers not working seamlessly with them, analytics were a MAJOR deal for this company so the apps had to be server rendered, and the easiest way to do that for the developers there was to just use Laravel since they were all acquainted with PHP, so we did and it all worked (and works) fine.
So do what makes sense for your context, figuring that out is 90% of the work a developer is supposed to do and why AI isn't going to replace you anytime soon
yeah, look my roof is leaking, ok we do the usual thing we have done for 30 odd years.
Fullstack JavaScript sends shivers down my spine...
Yes Max, and that's why we need a FullStack Nuxt3 course. Because it's the best way nowadays to create full-stack apps
I love your JavaScript courses
Thank you so much!
Im in love with Springboot and Hibernate
I’m learning this now 😊
Ich würd mich zu sehr dafür interessieren wie du damals den Weg zum Informatik Tutor eingeschlagen hast. Würd gern die ganze Backstory hören. Wann, wieso, was hast du in der zwischenzeit gemacht :D
let's be honest, modern stacks feel kind of stressful more than fun a lot of the time
Using laravel livewire,U don't need ajax or fetch anymore! It's like vue or react ,but don't need to writ API ,that's the web development future.
I always asked this question why are we moving to backend but to my satisfaction we are now having hybrid option
I am new to nextjs, and I like the integrated full-stack dev part about it. But I also feel that because of its serverless architecture it poses a lot of limitations. You have to think away from nextjs if you want to build a big projects. I think something similar to nextjs without the serverless would be worth trying.
Next js, Nuxt Js both are prime example, at the end every language wants to be php.
reinventing the wheel that was never needed ... but well, some people need to learn the hard way ...
when i began expanding beyond front end languages around 2013-2015? php seemed like the only decent option back then too
Ironically, I made my first webpage in 2019 which was a login form in php from your course..😅😅
Why not just create a version of Node.js that runs on the frontend? Wouldn't that work?
The problem I see is that many domain specific solutions are enforced into large userbase frameworks instead of keeping them simple and slim. So we have to adjust to certain ways of work to do our simple stuff just because the frameworks were built in a way to support many complex cases. That's one problem; Other thing is that these frameworks have been pushed by big tech as a must, leveraging our FOMO.
Cloud, microservices and changing framework every week, has definitely destroyed our happiness of job
I never quit believing in PHP. To me, it's the best backend. I just try to advance in newer versions.
PHP is awesome. I have been developing with it since the 90's and it has come a long way. It is easy to place your files on the server and it just works. It's fast, feature-rich, and mature, and also can be used to make powerful CLI applications. It supports multithreading and it's easy to make powerful, fast, reliable daemons.
but no pwa so the pages transitions and loading from server sucks
You do not need a templating engine for PHP, but they do help
we had a full CRM built in-house on LAMP; stability, speed, simplicity, one point of truth, and very very cheap until the we decided to go Salesforce, lol
We mainly use javascript and react to not load the whole page again which makes a single page website more interesting.i dont know if php can do it???.if php can do it why would facebook create react???
That's the point js should have remain in frontend and had no business in the backend. But you can build react on top of laravel
Laravel use Vue on the frontend.
you could basically do that 15 years go, they moment ajax came along. just inject the pages into the dom.
and they created react because they wanted a good working client side library, with reusable modular components.
phps performance sucked rly rly bad in the past
Hi, do you plan to give a nextjs course with typescript sometime?
I came from Perl and lots of cgi scripts to this new fancy thing called PHP 😅 started by modding phpbb and stuff like that
2003-2004 was also a year I started web development 💪
Are we going back to PHP with fullstack JavaScript?
Answer:- Yes, Thats Why our college do not update Our syllabus.
Do you consider to release a Laravel course?
At least for small projects I went all way to PHP. For large projects - something JVM based. Haven't tried running JS on server side at scale, wonder how that works...
Some of us started with ASP (Active Server Pages) and then moved to WebForms, then MVC before going to SPAs. It is a bit funny that, like you said we came around a full circle 🤣😂
nah, you reinvented the circle that never needed reinventing. I have stayed with PHP 28 years, watched and laughed ...
@@swojnowski453 congrats! I'm glad it worked out for you and you outsmarted everyone.
@@iamchesco nah, I have outsmarted no one. I worked with others. OUr common effort lofted all the boats ...
The problem with JS is the need to compile it. In bigger projects it is a huge pain, especially if used with webpack.
In some projects I need to wait 10 minutes or more so I could finally use it. It looks better now with vite but still, I prefer working with php for backend.
Beside this, working on JS projects is way more complicated than few years ago. It becomes a rocket science xD
i started with coldfusion... back in 2002
Yes Laravel is a master piece. Still it is good to create your own mini php model controller route framework if you prefer to. Also implementing JWT auth makes it a great compliment to create secure APIs
just use codeIgniter 4, it is super small and super flexible ...
Since I started api driven web development, I would never go back to monolithic web dev. Been there done that
Can someone give more information about Laravel and Inertia with SSR and more specifically the impact on SEO?
I like js frameworks because of component reuse and state management,but it seems to be a problem especially when SEO is important for the company.
Laravel seems pretty well organized to me, stable with a great community.
Hello Max, can you also talk about Nuxt and Vue... Nuxt is as awesome as Next or probably even more