Platonic evangelism - sinfono, I agree to it! The inner ecstasy from merging with these contents doesn't let one naturally become emotional about it, a la 'the truth needs no advocate'... But it's still the greatest experience to be made within consciousness, and it's sure underrepresented in our world. Be happy for it, yes. You're really doing a great job, very glad about your work!
I was in a small reading group of the Laws back in grad school in the early 90s. A great experience. I need to get back to it. I think I will actually sign up for your lectures when I have the time.
I was a Marxist, I still think the history and economic analysis is valuable but about 7 years ago I read the Hackett complete Plato, including all the spurious works and have become utterly enraptured by all things Platonist. Plato's laws was not the most enjoyable but the methodical and totalising presentation really goes to work on you, absolutely pulled me into understanding communalism as the only true basis of a properly cohesive society - and as you say it's a perfect sort of meta-commentary on the problems of the lawgiver, natural law and our social teleology; it's the perfect prism to approach the code of Manu, the Torah, the Qu'ran, church canon law, Solon and Lycurgus through. Good stuff.
Thanks for posting this. I read The Laws earlier this summer. I was very taken by the start of it; I think this is the only dialogue that discusses the nature of war and peace (there is a brief mention in Phaedo where Socrates says the cause of war is ultimately the body and its endless needs, but this is not unpacked.) I was hooked. But my reading slowed down in books 6 - 9 because I found the discussion of the structure of various committees and functions for the proposed new city-state to be murky for me. But it wasn't deadly and got me thinking of what are the necessary functions of a political organization? When I got to Book 10 I was in awe of how contemporary some of the issues are therein. The discussion about atheism is light years ahead of contemporary discussions about this topic and there are other contemporary views, such as naturalism, that are also discussed. Book 10 is amazing! From there to the end my initial enthusiasm returned. I read the recent Reeves translation, but I think I'll read it a second time using Pangle. Thanks again.
Certainly, there is no greatest dialogue by Plato, because they all aim at different things and in vital ways they all complement each other. But anyway, for me this is a great introduction to Laws: It sparked my curiousity. I've always somewhat underestimated Laws without knowing why. Surely an error. Maybe because Meno, Republic, Symposium, Sophist have taken such a toll on me. I'll never come around to read them all. They require much work, attention and multiple reads.
I once read that Plato thought his The Laws was his most essential work but because The Republic became most famous in history (published at the end of his life), but the philosopher himself thought The Laws was his most important work. Funny how history turns out.
Laws are legitimated by some form of consent to that legitimacy, which word comes from Latin 'lex', by the way. In Chinese tradition the term is the Mandate if Heaven. I've always liked that expression.
I'm always amazed when people say they've read all about Plato but they reject the truth of God. It just shows that even if you've read Plato's work doesn't mean that you ever understood him. Shadows on the wall.
Likewise, Epinomis functions as an 'epilogue' to the Laws, although the dialogue endorses astronomy as the primary discipline the philosopher should undertake, so scholars judge it apocryphal.
@@sethbracken The one that I read (I've only ever read it once) was in the Hackett 'Plato: Complete Works' volume. Despite the volume's reputation, there are some writings that employ only a dismal attempt at translation, namely Theaetetus. I don't recommend. Lately, however, I've acquired a fondness for the pen of 18th century Neoplatonist Thomas Taylor. As a legitimate practicing Platonist who even had conversations in attic Greek with his own wife, he has a reputation of writing the most accurate translations of Plato (and Plotinus) purely in terms of platonic metaphysics, which are obviously the foundations of whatever written idea expressed platonic. The only trouble is that it's a bit old-fashioned. But if anyone is comfortable reading Hobbes or Locke, or whoever from a similar period in English history, he'd be comfortable reading Taylor. The publisher Prometheus Trust has an I think 6-volume series of the complete Plato translated by Taylor, and I think Epinomis (which he subtitled 'or, the Philosopher') is in the second one. If you want the dialogue just by itself, then I assume you can find a pdf of it wherever online, perhaps in an online pdf depository or something of the sort. It's short, so it shouldn't be any trouble reading it on a computer. I personally hate reading books on screens, but short, 20-page treatises are totally doable for me.
I must finally get around to reading this book!
Your knowledge and enthusiasm are also inspiring, Professor!
Platonic evangelism - sinfono, I agree to it!
The inner ecstasy from merging with these contents doesn't let one naturally become emotional about it, a la 'the truth needs no advocate'... But it's still the greatest experience to be made within consciousness, and it's sure underrepresented in our world. Be happy for it, yes.
You're really doing a great job, very glad about your work!
This was excellent. Thank you.
Amazing as always! I can never get enough of these lectures.
thank you for the presentation, Professor
I was in a small reading group of the Laws back in grad school in the early 90s. A great experience. I need to get back to it. I think I will actually sign up for your lectures when I have the time.
Fascinating... legitimacy of law is such a big deal..
Congratulations! Great work Michael 🫡
I was a Marxist, I still think the history and economic analysis is valuable but about 7 years ago I read the Hackett complete Plato, including all the spurious works and have become utterly enraptured by all things Platonist. Plato's laws was not the most enjoyable but the methodical and totalising presentation really goes to work on you, absolutely pulled me into understanding communalism as the only true basis of a properly cohesive society - and as you say it's a perfect sort of meta-commentary on the problems of the lawgiver, natural law and our social teleology; it's the perfect prism to approach the code of Manu, the Torah, the Qu'ran, church canon law, Solon and Lycurgus through. Good stuff.
“like I told you, Platos bible..” I am so hooked by this.
Thank you, Michael!
❤❤❤
Thanks for posting this. I read The Laws earlier this summer. I was very taken by the start of it; I think this is the only dialogue that discusses the nature of war and peace (there is a brief mention in Phaedo where Socrates says the cause of war is ultimately the body and its endless needs, but this is not unpacked.) I was hooked. But my reading slowed down in books 6 - 9 because I found the discussion of the structure of various committees and functions for the proposed new city-state to be murky for me. But it wasn't deadly and got me thinking of what are the necessary functions of a political organization? When I got to Book 10 I was in awe of how contemporary some of the issues are therein. The discussion about atheism is light years ahead of contemporary discussions about this topic and there are other contemporary views, such as naturalism, that are also discussed. Book 10 is amazing! From there to the end my initial enthusiasm returned. I read the recent Reeves translation, but I think I'll read it a second time using Pangle. Thanks again.
Plato's works like his ideas of the Forms are eternal.
Well done.
I think you like it because K. Popper hates it - and I'm fine with that
😆😆
Certainly, there is no greatest dialogue by Plato, because they all aim at different things and in vital ways they all complement each other.
But anyway, for me this is a great introduction to Laws: It sparked my curiousity. I've always somewhat underestimated Laws without knowing why. Surely an error. Maybe because Meno, Republic, Symposium, Sophist have taken such a toll on me. I'll never come around to read them all. They require much work, attention and multiple reads.
I once read that Plato thought his The Laws was his most essential work but because The Republic became most famous in history (published at the end of his life), but the philosopher himself thought The Laws was his most important work. Funny how history turns out.
shining gold
Laws are legitimated by some form of consent to that legitimacy, which word comes from Latin 'lex', by the way. In Chinese tradition the term is the Mandate if Heaven. I've always liked that expression.
I'm always amazed when people say they've read all about Plato but they reject the truth of God. It just shows that even if you've read Plato's work doesn't mean that you ever understood him. Shadows on the wall.
Wouldnt "victory in war" just equate to "survival" as the end of the law?
“Minos” is supposedly the intro dialog to “The Laws”
Likewise, Epinomis functions as an 'epilogue' to the Laws, although the dialogue endorses astronomy as the primary discipline the philosopher should undertake, so scholars judge it apocryphal.
@@pseudoplotinus who has a good translation of Epinomis? It wasn’t in “Ten Forgotten Socratic Dialogs” or by Agora Press or Focus.
@@sethbracken The one that I read (I've only ever read it once) was in the Hackett 'Plato: Complete Works' volume. Despite the volume's reputation, there are some writings that employ only a dismal attempt at translation, namely Theaetetus. I don't recommend. Lately, however, I've acquired a fondness for the pen of 18th century Neoplatonist Thomas Taylor. As a legitimate practicing Platonist who even had conversations in attic Greek with his own wife, he has a reputation of writing the most accurate translations of Plato (and Plotinus) purely in terms of platonic metaphysics, which are obviously the foundations of whatever written idea expressed platonic. The only trouble is that it's a bit old-fashioned. But if anyone is comfortable reading Hobbes or Locke, or whoever from a similar period in English history, he'd be comfortable reading Taylor. The publisher Prometheus Trust has an I think 6-volume series of the complete Plato translated by Taylor, and I think Epinomis (which he subtitled 'or, the Philosopher') is in the second one. If you want the dialogue just by itself, then I assume you can find a pdf of it wherever online, perhaps in an online pdf depository or something of the sort. It's short, so it shouldn't be any trouble reading it on a computer. I personally hate reading books on screens, but short, 20-page treatises are totally doable for me.
@ 10 Forgotten Socratic dialogs, ed Pangle, Cornell Univ Press is a great resource.
Florence Henderson of The Brady Bunch had crabs.
Just like one has to have a compulsory driver's licence as certified with tests, for entring into politcs Plato et al should be manditory.
We cannot eradicate poverty by prohibiting it in legislation? Has anyone told Parliament?
The Laws wasn't Plato's worst book, but it wasn't for lack of trying.
That painting behind you is giving me anxiety
What about Plato's view of Asiatics in his Laws?
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