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- The Murder Division's Revenge - Le Mesnil Patry - Normandy 1944
Part of Attrition - Beyond the Beachhead week on WW2TV
With Mike Bechthold
More Canadian content on WW2TV
• Canada in WWII
77 years ago today a Canadian advance towards Le Mesnil Patry from Norrey en Bessin turned into one of the costliest days for the 3rd Canadian Division in Normandy.
From Canada our guest historian is Mike Bechthold, who has written and lectured extensively on the Canadians in WWII mikebechthold....
www.pen-and-sw...
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I have a dear friend who was a driver with the Canadian 1st Hussars. He went into Le Mesnil Patry, he survived but lost many friends that day. He said "it was not a good day". He is alive and well, and is a few months from being a cententarian. He still drives his own car and does his own shopping, amazing, amazing man and a true hero.
I really enjoy ww2tv's shows as they are interesting and the guests are experts at the topic. this shows maps were very helpful; the chat box as always was illuminating; Paul's knowledge really suss out the details; and Mags camera work is A+...I feel like I just had a day trip to Normandy, which is a wonderful feeling. Thank you for making history come alive for your audience.
Glad you like them!
My father was in this battle...he was taken prisoner by the 12th SS Hitlerjugend....the SS executed all Canadian prisoners except four that they needed to carry German wounded. Luckily, my father was one of those four. He never spoke of June 11th for fifty years. When he finally did talk about it all he said was that the battle was a massacre.
Thank you for this presentation, highlighting the Canadian corps contribution to the battle of Normandy.
Watching this again, because we had a significant stop here in the October 2023 WW2TV tour. Thrilling to have seen in person the battlefield discussed here!
And we must remember the gent we met who witnessed the battle as a small boy.
@@willierobertson862 Indeed! That was really nice. He was asking if there were Canadians amongst us because he wanted to express his gratitude!
I value all your presentations. I have always been awed by the Canadian contribution to especially WW II. It seems to me that much of the Commonwealth have played a role well beyond what might have been expected but Canada with its amazingly small population truly stands out. The insights offered with the experts you introduce add critical insights to these battles and campaigns helping to personalize them to someone like me and humanizes this history. It amazes me how many talented and dedicated people can add vital material to histories that otherwise seem thoroughly covered in so many different types of study. Thank you
Great show, battlefield livestreams image quality has been brilliant.
Another excellent battlefield livestream! Well done Mag, Paul, and Mike.
Watching these shows with the fantastic camera footage on the battlefield is really the next best thing from being there. The images are very enlightening together with the expert’s description of the battle.
Norbert Számvéber, Waffen-SS armour in Normandy; p.56: 12th SS lost 5 Pz IV of 8.kom and 1 of 9.kom. These may be "total losses" as in irrecoverable (usually means burnt out) but they may also be losses from all types of damage, so cover all tanks lost.
If it's helpful, Zetterling, Normandy 1944; p.316: 26 total write-offs (Pz IV) between 6th June & 26th June. Might help with numbers context, I hope.
Wow what a great show, especially with Mag on the ground giving us the real feel of where it all happened - Well done guys and gal, keep up the great work - Cheers from South Africa
My Dads Cousin was there and his name is on the monument " Wilbur Gagnon" We had many family members who served in WW II in the Canadian Army, US Armies, US Navy and Merchant Marines
If sufficient data exists, this would be a good battle to study re: the survivability of the Sherman tank and its tendency to catch fire and brew-up when hit by heavy anti-tank fire at this stage in the war.
What a great show. Some of the subject matter was a bit difficult but Mike did an excellent job in presenting those hard items in a very professional & respectful manner. Please watch!
Yes, I agree with you. I just finished listening, viewing the entire show (having been unable to attend the live stream today.)
Great collaboration to all of you folks. Each person augments the other. Agree- best to see the battle while walking the terrain. Puts everything in perspective. I’m learning so much about the English/Canadian facet of the campaign. Outstanding presentation.
Paul/Mike - another great and informative presentation and thank you to Mags for the 'live' video to provide a view of the battlefield. Mike made a great point right at the start (and later on), if you are on the offensive then you are going to have significant casualties (unless you are very, very lucky). If that is exacerbated by shortcomings in planning/ reconnaissance/ situational awareness, or general preparedness then you are in big trouble. Unfortunately it is the units in the line that pay the ultimate price. The varied terrain of Normandy seems to be a multiplier of all these factors as both the Germans and the Allies experienced at various times. I still find it incredible that the Allies managed to make and secure such a huge amphibious landing, all the while being on such a huge learning curve on how to defeat the German defence and the terrain.
Another great show, brilliant insights and information.
Splendid show, great camera work from Mag. Was great to walk this ground with you Woody.
Harold Cook was my father's best friend....his name is on the monument for the QOR...Dad knew Harold's regimental number right up to the day he died.
Thanks for sharing
Très beau reportage sur la bataille du mesnil patry , j’habite à Norrey en Bessin . Vous êtes les bienvenus pour boire une bonne bière ou un calvados !
A prime example of the veracity of the expression "haste makes waste".
So wonderful to once again have your correspondents back out in the field. Well done Mag!
Great camera work, god bless Mags for the poppy shots
Just a thought, in the future a side by side photograph old/present day is very effective in bringing the area into your living room.
Didn't realize that. When last in France, 60+ years ago, stop signs were euro symbolic, occasionally printed with "ARRETEZ". When I drove in Quebec 40 years ago, they split the difference with red, octagonal signs that were printed both "ARRETEZ" and "STOP".
Sic transit...
Super interesting and great info. My great-uncle was in B Squadron and died on June 11, 1944.
Great Paul ,bless you all ,keep these superbly done history lessons going ,wop wop...
Great Footage and Commentary
Many thanks, especially to Mag. I would have liked to see her enjoying a glass of wine after all of that to-ing and fro-ing.
Really enjoyed that, well done everyone. Thank you for all your time and effort. 👍
Is it possible to get copies of the photos of the Sherman wrecks in the Bray graveyard?
That's a great map Paul.
Thanks guys.. another interesting one.
Another wonderful show!
Great show as always.
Brilliant really enjoyed it keep up the good work
Westlake Av. in the Coxwell, Dundas area of Toronto named after the brothers. They were from that part of T.O.
I suspect the Canadian-French connection is about some shared language, but WW2 is the 2nd time in 30 years the Canadians have been in France fighting to free it from Germans. My grandad served in the 16th Canadian Scottish Battalion until he was wounded at the Somme early, near Courcelette in 1916. Went there in 1991 to see that Albert, Baupaume, and Vimy Ridge - a lot of Canadian flags, monuments, and graveyards. French people in their 40's and 50's then would have remembered the Canadians from the Great War. While the British did too, the Canadians aren't carrying the British-French political baggage, so the feelings toward them would seem to be more unalloyed and clear.
I think a lot of the DD Tanks did make to shore.
Depends which beach, but yes, way more arrived than didn't
Just two battalions of M7 Preists with Cessnas as FOBZs would have plastered any advance.
I thought the British artillery was their strongest arm.
SPG weren't being used at the point of attack, which they were designed for.
If Horrocks had that philosophy, Caen would have been bypassed on day one. They had two regiments of them, with supporting M4s. I don't get that
Chateau at 30 mins looks burnt out
What was the weather like for the 2 weeks after D-Day . Is this affecting ground attack aircraft ? No mention of Ground attack or this isn't coordinated that much ?
The weather was okay, but ground-air coordination still has issues. A lot of sorties are still trying to hit German units on the way to Normandy rather than in front of the Allied advance
Normandy is so beautiful, like myDenmark, but warmer. I understand your choice of home.
Is Mike a Medieval reenactor?
I don't think Mike does any re-enactment, but he has some Star Wars props etc
@@WW2TV it also looks like he has a Norman and a Germundbu Helmet in the background
"I'm not saying it's right, it's a grey zone" - yes - that's something those of us lucky enough to never have been put in the position aren't fit to judge. The habit of murder and its ritualisation by axis forces (and soviets) was an entirely different thing.
Absolutely agree about the fetishisation of the wermacht and especially the SS, it's abhorrent.
Back again Woody.
Another very interesting and well presented show. I am not sure I agree with Paul and Mike’s viewpoints towards the end where they almost seem to be almost excusing Canadian shooting of prisoners. Of course, no one can justify the actions of the 12th SS and indeed other SS and Heer units from time to time but it is incredibly naive and I suspect just plain wrong in terms of the Third Geneva Convention to try and paint a viewpoint that Allied units did not shoot prisoners. Whether it is cold blooded execution after interrogation or shooting unarmed Fritz when he has just put his hands up, that is still effectively the same thing and cannot be excused. We must always remember that history is very much written and dictated by the victor and you will see very little in writing or publicised about crimes which involve the especially the US, British etc whether this is WW2 or up to the present day. Experience in talking to veterans of various conflicts over the years suggests to me that I am probably right.
One thing the French should be very proud of, I rarely if ever see grafitti blighting these Historical sites
which are, so important to the Free World. Thank You France for you're respect.
Bon Apitite from Downunder
[It's the only French I know] 🙂
23.29: Yea where were the experienced commanders? DEAD on the beaches? I am sorry to be so critical of our freedom fighting heroes. It'm reminded of the BEF looking like a bunch of part timers against the Professional Germans in1940. confusing??
This waffen SS thing always pops up in some way shape or form ,and as Mike said there the 12th weren't really that much as in terms of being all that good hence why they did what they did .
However if only they did not shot those prisoners ,maybe and maybe then when the Canadians did win the 12th may well have got an element of "Respect" if nothing else.
Was it a German officer once said "Don't shoot prisoners ,cos once there side find out than your for it ".
Us marines behaviour towards Japanese prisoners was just a bad .no excuse and war brings horrific behaviour out in all troops.
If there had been any justice , at the end of war Meyer should have been hung at the abbey where he had all those Canadian POWs murdered. But of course Cold War politics , yesterdays enemy regardless of its crimes becomes a possible ally in the future came in. Even worse Meyer himself after released became one of first and foremost apologists of SS , Nazi regime and Hitler in post war Federal Germany , always denying excesses and war crimes SS commited and displayed SS as a "chivalrous" organisation.
Agree with everything said, coupled with the facts of Hitler Youth enrollment, full Nazi party membership guesting at the wedding of Goerbels plus the murdering of polish civilians during the blitzkrieg occupation. Meyer is as guilty of war crimes as the camp Kommandants/killers and Nazi hierarchy. Remember, as potrayed in another excellent presentation, the SS network of influencing all aspects of the German armed forces.
His oxygen supply should have been cut off after the original conviction
Excellent response D.D. The excusing of the Allied shooting of German soldiers who have surrendered that was alluded to in this broadcast is abhorrent and should be condemned. I don’t accept the “well we weren’t as bad as the SS” argument as being a position that should be supported. Both actions must be condemned.
@@DD-qw4fzA great and truthful response sir well done.
This is a great exchange , but one thing , the damage to infrastructure of of these historic buildings in France , the vast majority were from Allied airforces , that tended to carpet bomb areas , prior to attacking , and the superiority of our artillery.
It’s interesting the narrator questioning German casualty figures . And tank kills . But not ours ? Remember they controlled the battlefield.
And you need context , to the” Murder “ of the 17 Canadians , By HJ , they were captured with orders stating , they shouldn’t take prisoners, if it impeded the advance. And under interrogation confessed to killing pows .
So it’s important to remember , both sides killed pows . And it’s likely we started it after landing in France .
Actually the more I listen to this towards the end , I retract my compliment.
You dwell on SS atrocities, but forget it was also widely known , we did the same thing .in fact Canadians ( and Americans) has a reputation for brutality with prisoners.
I suspect the infamous survey of 48 Sherman's was done on the wrecks at Bray. This collection point also features in IWM Photos B 6328 to B 6331 though it is not identified as such. www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205971