People are not misled by these public avatars, their opinions are represented by them. Acknowledging this startlingly obvious point will help you sound like less of a condescending prick.
@@bluj78 people fundamentally are misled by politicians, as they are constantly lying and using logical fallacies to misrepresent their policies and the issues for which they are responsible. If you feel represented by them, it's because you bought the lie.
No @@Tristslayerhe is saying the OP sounds like a prick, but I didn't see that. These two are siloed, as we all are. "We" need to step up on the peace vibe because violence is not the answer...
"We beat up Muslims, we smashed up the shops of Muslims, we target mosques, but we are not fascists". Everyone who's arrested for rioting should be forced to watch the 'Rise of the Nazis' or a similar show, see if they can equate themselves with the brown shirts.
So during the Rwandan genocide, which side has to watch "the rise of the Nazis" or similar? Apply that logic to pretty much everyone who has had to pick up a bat to another bat...
@@MeatFeast-qk7nd 1. What exactly does the Rwandan genocide have to do with the UK? Trying to defend the riots while comparing their actions to a genocide is interesting though... I guess. 2. There is a big difference between burning buildings and literally going village to village exterminating people, the far-right in this country are not in a position to be able to do that yet. 3. If you must have an answer though, the Hutu, they were the ethnic group in power in Rwanda who coordinated the whole thing. But Rwandans have no need to watch the 'Rise of the Nazis' as they have no historical context in doing so. We fought the Nazis for what they believed in and did, now people are happily getting into bed with their ideology.
@@theyoutubeguy1 it doesn't specifically, as I stated. We could apply it across the board, why does it always have to be Nazis also, plenty of fuckwits to choose from...
Years ago I was on the tube arriving at Highbury and Islington, not knowing a football match had ended. As the train pulled in, the platform was utterly packed with guys who seemingly waited patiently for us to all leave the train. Until they didn't, and it only took one voice. As myself, an elderly lady and a woman with a pushchair were about to step off the train, one guy said loudly, "Aw I'm fed up of this! Come on!" and stepped onto the train giving permission for a rush of people entering the train. As three women, me a sprightly 30 at the time tried to leave, we were physically pushed back by the guys boarding on mass. It was truly scary and I had to yell "Hey, we're trying to leave the train!" One solitary guy stepped aside and held a couple of guys back so we could exit. There was no aggression or violence, just frustration and some alcohol. But it only took one voice to collate a group to move en masse, and those couple of minutes have stayed with me for almost 20 years! I cannot imagine the fear these neighbourhoods are having to experience from organised, angry and violent groups of guys turning up and just how easy it is for riots to escalate. I truly wonder whether the intensity, organisation and vitriol of the gangs turning up at these 'events' would be so strong, had there never been a Trump presidency. He is the ultimate permission giver and it feels naïve not to consider the influence of the MAGA movement thanks to social media, and how it amplifies and encourages the worst and most divisive instincts of people.
Cameron started with the rhetoric while trump was still playing US alan sugar, trump is a product of modern media, reality tv and social media, the man is in truth politically agnostic (he doesn't believe in anything but marketing and advertising). He's literally just playing the "social market"... what we need to look at and hold to account are the politicians that created and fertilised the ground for trump to even grow in... he's an effect not a cause 🤔🤔🤔🙏
Regarding the example of Oswald Mosely, whom you briefly discussed, it should not be forgotten that in the 1930's, he was far more dangerously popular and influential than is now recognised. In many walks of life in Britain back then, antisemitism was quite normal and acceptable dinner table talk among the upper, middle and among 'the lower classes', of a certain ilk. The war with Hitler changed all that, obviously, but it was not until the early 1960's that the remnants of antisemitic language in jokes phrases and sayings really stopped being common. By that time, of course, racism had a different scapegoat!
100% I think many venerate the war effort as this symbol of Britains high morality. It couldn’t be anything further from the truth. There is a dangerous lack of nuance when remembering British 2nd WW and Post war culture. Many were still racist despite the successful attack on Nazism. Racism persisted in the 50s,60s despite this great United front against the right and racism. Anti Nazism doesn’t equal anti racism, I know this well from experience and a closer examination supports this truth strongly. As we still see today, the institutions - Westminster, police, army - were incredibly racist. Furthermore local communities across the UK were incredibly hostile to non white people. Some of the journalists Joe are connected to will tell you of their experience as evidence to this. It wasn’t this simple ‘we kicked out racists in our backyard before, we will do it again’. Evidently the success and truth of this is misleading.
I don't really think Mosley was all that influential or popular. The BUF peaked at a (claimed) 50,000 members at time when the Labour and the Conservative Parties had membership numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Mosley's "New Party" (which only lasted a year) got most of its success out of a pro-keynesian policy platform and largely benefitted from the crash of the Labour Party vote because of their alliance with the conservatives. Once the BUF adopted an anti-semitic position its membership crashed to under 8,000 members and Mosley himself started condemning anti-semitism. They never won a single parliamentary seat. Whilst anti-semitism was absolutely a thing - much of the language we're seeing today, and the actions that are being perpetuated are actually much more disturbing than Mosley.
The fact the thugs use the phrases coined by politicians who have been pandering to people's prejudices and preconceptions ought to be a salutory lesson for Conservative leaders.
I feel like "Far-centre" needs to be introduced into the public lexicon. A position where you're so set on political balance that you're unwilling to engage with the reality of what's taking place around you.
I'm not far center but certainly like balance. Those Muslim boys need to slow their roll and chill out before they suck the sympathy out of those in power.
Look at sentencing for stop oil, 2,years for peacefully protest, so what are the people attacking police and racist attacks going to get sentenced??? Lets watch and see.
@@johnkelly9262 It's really not, but I suppose with the amount of arrests being made, they'll only have so much prison space and save the hefty sentences to those who they'll make examples of.
Did the British empire fight Nazi Germany because they were Nazis or was it because German expansionism threatened the British empire & the anti fascist bit was good narrative after the event? As a country it's easier for us to talk about 6 million Jews killed by Nazis than over a hundred million Indians killed during the Raj, then when racist stuff happens here everybody seems to be shocked. Oswald is a bit of an exception for the British ruling elite in that he faced some consequences for his fascism, all the others just had to go quiet for a bit & learn how to be sneaky, they didn't lose their wealth or privilege.
True. Sure half of Europe openly collaborated with the Nazis, and helped them round up Jews. A lot of Nazis lived very long lives. This fascism and xenophobia, white power ideology has always been there under the surface. Its barely been 2 generations between WW2 and now.
It’s an interesting one. I’ve always felt the latter was the main thrust of the conflict. However, the conflict involved going against everything Nazi Germany stood for, which included its type of fascism and racism. The former is more of a by-product, than a motive. Also, the former has been a focus of historical narratives, as it is a better story with a greater moral bases. However, that is just my opinion based on my own studies and thoughts on WW2.
Wow I’ve never heard anyone put that question before. Probably due to my lack of knowledge and brainwashing from school. I thought hitler was only interested in Europe, so how did that threaten the British empire. Or was the axis the threat to the British empire?
@rohanharridge5579 We should never forget that opinion polls show the British public were provably less in favour of allowing Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany entry to the UK in the 1930s than they were of allowing Syrian refugees fleeing the civil war entry in the 2010s You're completely right, there has been an awful lot of historical revisionism, and I think that "fighting the regime that inflicted the Holocaust on Europe" was a moral justification invented after the fact when it was really about stopping territorial gains
This conversation is so smart, thoughtful, intellectual, and endearing. It's made me realise how toxic my feed is these days. I need more people like you two in my life.
I recommend everyone look up Karl Poppers tolerance paradox Roughly summed up: “in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance” I’m also a great believer that the left has to win back the mantle of patriotism, best exemplified by good folk expressing “not in my name” and “love not hate”. A patriot loves his country and countries are made of people. The man who hates his neighbour is no patriot
A Jewish philosopher leaves Austria during the Nazi occupation and defends the institution of British pluralism and liberalism against the urge towards totalitarianism doesn’t resonate with violent white gangs doing Nazi salutes, shouting racist slogans and burning private property Street violence, racism, threats to people safety on the basis of their origins or religion are illiberal. Personally the opposition to authoritarian and totalitarian fits a liberal model and modern progressives far better than rioters.
Politics Joe should make a video series that shows the best of Britain, like how imagration add to their community and other positive aspects. We need a counter-narrative, and I think it's something Joe could do well.
The problem is that when you try to engage with the people that need to hear it, it's like trying to show a flat earther that the earth isn't flat. Facts don't matter to them, only they're ideology.
No one can seriously argue against immigration - humans have done that since the year dot. As Britians we successfully colonised large sections of the world because of it. Was does need to be looked at is the large upscaling of migration to this country. When even the children of the migrant generation in Britain are seeing the issues being caused, you need to start addressing the numbers. Rioting achieves nothing - the thugs should be dealt with. Just the same as dealing with the thugs in leeds a couple of weeks ago, the thugs in manchester surrounding a police station - right back to the thugs of 2011 who destroyed parts of london and other areas.
You can cherry-pick anything to prove whatever you want, it's kind of meaningless. The objective stats on immigration are dreadful - higher crime, net tax drain, etc.
We do need more of this. I do also think we need more community forums to bring together different people from all walks of life across the country. In actual real life.
As a regularly follower of the podcast, you knocked this one out of the park. Excellent analysis and such a thoughtful and interesting discussion. Great work guys!
Yes, really well said, two ideological viewpoints. Community support, assistance and solidarity vs hate, violence and intimidation. The latter groups are small, fractured but very motivated.
the vast majority of the country wants less immigration. accept the UNIPARTY GOVERNMENT WONT STOP IT! ITS THE FAULT OF THE LABOUR AND CONSERVATIVE PARTIES SINCE 1945!
The discussion on what is British and where they draw the line between race and generations is an interesting one. Hold with me here, butI think the Proclaimers sand about it brilliantly in ‘Scotland’s Story’ -The Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane From Pakistan, England and from the Ukraine We're all Scotland's story and we're all worth the same Your Scotland's story is worth just the same
Oli says "Ordinary hope is... the British desire... when the England football team win a penalty shootout." And therein lies the problem with this debate: England can't untie itself from "Britishness", doesn't understand itself, and has no interest in the other three nations.
@@samuelmelton8353 yes, but I'm retorting that the "Britishness" effect is applicable to all of the nations, Oli just used football as an example for England and his point was valid. The OPs argument is a different argument. Maybe still a valid one, but it isn't the "problem with this debate".
@@wirezts I'm saying, and I think what OP is saying, is that it is only applicable in England. The Scots don't use Scotland and the UK interchangeably in the way many English people do. The UK is essentially England with three extra bits that extend its influence.
@@samuelmelton8353 In context of this apparent argument related to the actual context of the quote from the podcast, not the "England is not Britain" one which is separate, I think that what Oli said about England celebrating football is applicable to all of the nations in different ways. With sport (maybe Rugby is applicable at the same level as England with football), or with other cultural "treasures" of normalcy that are overall British, separate from the differences within the nations. I see the point you're making, but I don't think it's relevant to what Oli was getting at - the point he was making was at a higher level and in a different context.
Semantics is the key to so much of this. We need to urgently re-examine our use of language. 'Tolerance' in particular is an ultimately dangerous word. Tolerance is in no way what we should be aiming for in society. Day-to-day we tolerate tooth ache, a leaky tap, or draughty windows. But ultimately these things need fixing before they become something worse. Tolerance also indicates a colonial level of entitlement which tells us that those who tolerate have the power to take that tolerance away at any moment. We should be seeking to embrace difference or call out hate. not just tolerate.
i've always liked what Chris Hedges says about fighting fascists (racists and the like), "we don't fight fascists because we think we'll win, we fight fascists because they're fascists."
Oli, I don't understand your insistence on constructing a left nationalism (as put forward in the first half). I think this is a rightwing trap some leftists fall into, accidentally conceding nationalism is a useful construct at all. Nationalism is when the predominant sub-identity of a person is centered around their perceived nation. This perceived nation is often an ethnic nation, leading to tribalism and an inability to criticize the nation state that, on the surface, maps to the perceived nation, except in situations in which the nation state does not correspond to perceived nation. This is why, for example, English nationalists can proudly display swastikas, even though Nazi Germany was in opposition to the British nation state; in their perceived English nation, there is no room for Jews, non-white immigrants, and others they deem deviant. A more useful way for us lefties to exploit the existence of the nation state is to conceptualize a national pride. Be proud of the achievements our nations have made in favor of the common person, while simultaneously showing sadness and dismay when the nation state fails us presently, or has failed us in the past. Nation-states are a sad fact of life right now, but that doesn't mean us lefties should build arguments around it if we want to progress past them. There is a reason the Internationale starts with 'arise, wretched of the earth', instead of 'arise, wretched of [insert nation state here]'.
yes the mongrel mixed race world future of the elitist left. Free labour for me and poverty for thee. Did you set up a nice Chinese beaurocratic CCP job? The left is agianst the existance of culture identity and seperateness. the oldest nations on earth are nation states China Greece Egypt. All multiethnic empires collpase only nation states exist.
Well said, Laura. Inequality is the root of this. If the people rioting think removing immigrants is going to make their lives better than they have another thought coming.
Does anyone remember how heavily Liam Neeson suffered when he alluded to wanting to attack any "black" man because someone else had been attacked ? Why are Nigel Farage etc not being called out and shouted down like he was ?
Particularly when you consider that Neeson’s whole point in telling the story was to highlight how pointless and destructive that kind of thinking is. He realised how stupid he was being and was thankful that he hadn’t got around to harming anyone while he was in that mindset.
Nigel Farage hasn’t made racist comments about Black people though? People are fed up of migrants leaving safe countries to come to the UK to attack people and contribute nothing to society.
@@GorgeDawes Yeah we wouldn't have even known if he had those thoughts unless he had shared them. Thought it was awful he was condemned for confessing a shameful secret.
I wish Keir Starmer would have explained the ‘2 tier policing’ thing the way Priti Patel has. His refusal to elaborate makes it look like he’s not telling the truth about it.
That conversation on nationalism was fascinating, cos it had Oli coming back with a couple of lovely points after some interesting questions from Laura. And then he never asked similar questions back.
My suggestion would be a new kind of education framework and government ministry for immigrants/expats/foreigners living in UK. Build colleges designed for integration that train people coming into the country in needed skills, while teaching them the history, culture, and language of their new home. Yes, all paid for by the British taxpayer. We WILL see the benefit of this more than making immigrants work as hard as possible to come in, spend all their money, join insulated communities, and then somehow be grateful for being granted something they worked for. I think the problem is that most of these people think that a homogenous society is possible when it isn't. If you have even a small number of immigrants coming in regularly, integrating and breeding in society, you will eventually have a mixed race country. They may not like it but they have to come to terms with the fact that the thing they desire is impossible outside of North Korea. I live in Japan and the speed at which this is moving away from being homogenous is staggering. It is scary for Japanese people. They have a culture worth preserving but you will never preserve it by holding back reality. The culture that doesn't adapt, dies. Britain needs to work on preserving its culture, not resisting outside ones. You can argue that it is desirable to keep the way of life we have "always had" (which is not really true unless most of us are slaves serving the aristocracy - the only constant is change) but it is still impossible and most of these people are scared and think they can win when they can't.
Could you put links to the interviews you mention in the podcasts in the show notes if possible? Like the one Ollie talks about at 23 mins 40 secs about patriotism of fear and anxiety. Thank you!
Thank you Laura for pointing out the disenfranchisement of deprived places being the cause, there's an obvious correlation. But it's still not being talked about enough.
Because to do so means to acknowledge the classist and by intersection the racist degradation of our communities by people who claim to be of the same ethnic origin as themselves. That level of Cognitive dissonance the Right is not prepared to face yet.
Oli's ideas are well-meant but so far off imo. People don't give af about Mill or classical liberalism (why should they when the liberal order is falling apart?), and Germany (where I live) is probably even more f-d than the UK at the moment, certainly not somewhere to look to for a more “progressive“ model of nationalism. If you want to have an England flag, chant about nonces, and go on rowdy stag holidays to Prague, then do, but be real about it and don't let your cognitive dissonance stop you from seeing what's staring you right in the face.
Agree 100%, possibly my age at 63, I do find the usual round table tedious, with all the giggling, silly banter & usually switch off. I do like the one to one interviews, Olly mostly does.😅
agree to disagree, the jokes and banter are great (in my subjective opinion) and we need political media that entertains as well as informs, even if it isn’t everyone’s cup of tea (all the more need for a broader range of content creators overall). on the flipside I love the Novara team but they’re a bit too dry for my personal taste so PolJoe gets my attention much more regularly
The way independent media like y'all discuss this in the UK gives me hope for us here in america this type of commentary was rare after Charlottesville and I wish I could have heard some of this commentary then. Ollie I love you you get it right 9/10 times (If we inckude charkotte Owens) and Laura never fails to be blunt on how she sees it even if Ava towers over her in frame. I appreciate that even with how much I've studied Uk and Us history as someone with a major in Modern Euro history and a special interest in colonialism every point is something ssomewhat new and relatable. I will love politics joe till i die
Until recently the figurative leader of Scottish nationalism was a devout and open Muslim with Pakistani heritage. Scottish nationalism has done the work of embracing multiculturalism to the point at which Scottish unionism and its most rabid flag waving associates are negatively polarising against all that centre-left Scottish nationalism has come to represent
BTW regardless of content: I like the format with starting with "just a chat", it lets me get into the vibe before talking about real stuff. Podcasts that start with "hello, today, horrible things" sometimes lose me early.
I’m seeing a lot of discussion atm in the uk about the paradox of tolerance. You can’t live in a tolerant society and tolerate the intolerant, so you must be vigilant against racists homophobes et cetera… and I agree, but I just think it’s the wrong starting point. I don’t care about living in a tolerant society. We, as a society, have our values. I think is more on the point. The crux of the conflict is not “who are we willing to tolerate”, it’s a question of what our collective values are.
Even as a leftist, I find Keir's "authoritarian" box-ticking and to-the-point rhetoric incredibly refreshing. Deal with the stupid short term problem radically and effectively, get back to the abstract and people-serving you're supposed to be doing as a PM for the next 5 years. So far, he's turning up as exactly the PM I hoped for.
I’ll tell you what is notable too: how quiet are the Lib Dems? What will happen to their seats in the next parliament when people perhaps no longer vote tactically?
Douglas Murray spewed "great replacement theory" nonsense as well... Farage, Priti Patel, Suella Braverman, GB News, Talk TV, and the list goes on -- all fascists...
I agree with you it’s not right saying to want to debate these matters is racist. It’s too easy to shut things down when we ask questions about multiculturalism, immigration integration etc. We seem to be ignoring the issues that un controlled immigration causes to all concerned and it seems to be all political parties are really too scared to deal with it.
@sarahwhiting325 they don't mind the division, helps maintain control and categorize people. I just find it funny how situational it is... Olympics, be patriotic, join the military, be patriotic. Everything else bad.
An element you didn't speak about were the quiet fascists. Those who have scary beliefs and were not participating in any of the violence. I do wonder if Laura found a sort of calm and focused Peter Hitchens type on her travels
I learned today that the legal definition of a riot is 12 or more people acting together to persue a goal using violence or the threat of violence. I also learned that police authorities can be sued for damage caused by riots, except to vehicles, so long as the person suing was not involved in the rioting. This then got me to thinking that that may have influenced the language used by authorities to describe the unrest (Starmer: "right wing thuggery") and the style of policing used. Are the police protecting people, or property for which they may have to pay compensation? That might perhaps explain different policing styles in city centres / affluent areas to less well off more residential areas. Or perhaps Im being too cynical.
Wow! A great podcast that didn't descend into bum and vag jokes for the majority of the stream, Ava is cool, but she doesn't relent with the jokes and Ed just feeds off it. Laura was knowledgeable, insightful, interesting and brought astute analysis to the table. Ollie also matched her and clearly enjoyed the conversation and it showed, bringing out some VERY insightful takes on that narratives that even the likes of Novara have missed. Can Laura come back for good please!!
Yes Jay, I prefer Laura's approach or vibe over Ava's, I don't really like the words "vibe" or "approach" but they're the only that entered my head so they'll have to do. 🙂 Probably would have been easier to simply say I agree with you. 😉
@@mikey3666tends to be with Novara that it is always one-sided bashing as opposed to discourse. I agree with most of what they ultimately say, but there's never any depth to their output. It's Fox News from the other side essentially.
While there is some truth to changes in voting behaviour. It’s simplistic to say that people wanted to vote for socialists rather than Starmer / centre left. This isn’t really the case. The left has been demonised to the working classes for decades now - with more working class folks voting Tory than Labour for years. Corbyn was the most left wing candidate possibly ever. He considered himself to be the left of Attlee. But was roundly rejected by that demographic. What is more likely is through the decline in the union movement, left wing industry jobs in coal mining etc disappearing. This demographic has felt increasingly left behind, and like in other countries; they’ve gone right, not left. As for the drop in vote share for Labour, it’s not clear cut: we know from Carol Vordaman’s work that millions voted tactically. But the nature of things, the vote share drop should be a reflection of tactical voting. Until the riots, Starmer and Labour’s popularity in polls had shot up. Sorry all minor points. Enjoyed rest of the pod.
"Corbyn was the most left wing candidate possibly ever. He considered himself to be the left of Attlee. But was roundly rejected by that demographic." Untrue. Even in 2019 he got half a million more votes than Starmer did. He had a majority of support among the working class. And Corbyn is barely a social democrat his manifesto was to the right of any post-war Labour PM. Stop repeating stuff in the Daily Mail.
Riots in UK? None in Scotland. Any comments? I’ve lived in England recently and Scotland truly feels like a different country. Possibly civic nationalism still very strong due to 50% of population still wanting Independence. Comments re SNP loss of seats recently is not relevant as civic nationalism not due to whether SNP have majority of MPs in Westminster.
My Montrose family took in Poles during WWII. Dad joined the SNP in the mid-1950s, yet reminded me that one of Glasgow's favourite sons is named Armando Iannucci. Now I'm in Canada, taking every opportunity to distinguish this country from its southerly neighbour. I can see why many Scots do the same.
Less people and the Scottish have a narrative to create an inclusive society. They have campaigns aimed at creating civic inclusion, and they also pair that with a common goal of disliking the English. The Scottish have a formula for integrating new people and bridging political ideology. While the English have no common goal and conflicting ideas of what it means to be English or British or ect...
The SNP have been really good at channeling the Nationalist movement in 100% peaceful way. I don’t think they, and the Scottish people get enough credit for how rare that is. Other independence movements have been mired with violence. Maybe the British government should occasionally look north…
@@UkSapyy becuase scotland is 92% WHITE IT IS A WHITE ETHNO STATE! THE MEDIA PROJECTS A NARRATIVE OF DIVERSITY THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST IN SCOTLAND WALES AND NORTHERN IRELAND.
@@ianclose123You're targeting a specific group of people because of their ethnic background and religious beliefs, with violence. Try and explain how that isn't outright fascism, which it absolutely is?
Religion had very little to do with it. The organisers wanted the event to be seen as cross community, they were also being protested by a cross community group.
Where are the young idealists in all this? My mum was in the International Brigade, confronted fascists in the East End and took a train to Spain. I'm sure she's turning in her grave, why did she bother?
I understand the intention of people bringing up invasions of the Norse, Normans, Anglo-Saxons and Romans is to point out that very few people can truly claim to be originally British and thus establish a fallacy in their arguments against people of colour not being considered so, however, I can't help but think that invoking conquest and colonisation by the aforementioned groups rather plays into some of the rhetoric many use to dub current immigration as invasive and colonising.
Yes exactly. I worry about that too. Immigration and asylum seekers are obviously vastly different to invading armies. I’ve literally seen the fascists using rhetoric referring to refugees and migrants as an invasion of ‘fighting age males’.
On the point about English Nationalism, this is exactly what Caroline Lucas’ new book (“Another England: How to Reclaim Our National Story”) is about. She recognises that pride in England or English identity, (rather than Britain/British), has been co-opted and corrupted by the far-right, to the point where the English flag is often seen as a racist/far-right symbol, outside of sporting events. The whole point of the book is for progressives to reclaim the idea of England and English identity, by looking at all the things that we can and should be proud of. She does so by exploring literature (like Chaucer and Virginia Woolf), but uses it to paint a picture of not just our history, but how it can shape an English identity today and in the future… suggesting how it could inspire new arguments for things like a Universal Basic Income or modern environmentalism.
It's a cultural clash. The goverment is failing to resolve/adres some concerns people have with the cultural differences, and as a result we have a mob lashing out at innocent people... There's good to be found in all cultures, but that doesn't mean people will accept everything that another culture brings/teaches within their borders. There are certain cultures that simply clash with our western morals and values, and they need help to better integrate into our society (or not get in at all). How "intollerant to intollerance" have the British been towards the spread of hadith's?? (religious muslim texts that call out for the extermination of all Jews) What help do immigrants recieve to integrate, when they come from a culture where there's no sexual freedom for women? What's been done to increase the acceptance of gay people within a culture or religion, where homophobia is being taught and the norm? How actively are illegal child marriages being tracked down, and are the parents and everybody involved with the wedding prosecuted? Are mosques monitored for imams that spread hatespeech, and are they prosecuted/deported? Specially those imams who call out fatwa's (assassination of a person) and litteral jihads? (declaration of war that permits terrorist attacks on a country, not to be confused with your "inner" Jihad, which means the struggle with yourself) When a goverment is failing to adress these concerns, riots like these become inevitable. I may seem stoic about all this all, but i can assure you my heart goes out to all the innocent people that have to suffer because of this. The muslims that want nothing more then to live peacefully together, the immigrants that came here to fit in, be accepted and start a new life. All those with a loving heart, and we are all capable of that nomatter what culture you're from. It's sad to see how this all unfolds...
I am old. I only declare this because i have seen the persistence and camellian nature of the hateful right for decades. As individual power fights to the death, group power dito. The masses hate to share, no less the individual.
No other country has done it better than South Africa, make your citizens proud of your land, proud of your sports teams, and proud of cultral differences via education. Thus allowing everyone to see past racism and acknowledge were all human.
A world united in peace and justice, Love and understanding guiding our way, Liberty and freedom for all to embrace, All people equal, none led astray. Hatred has no place in our hearts, Unity dispels the darkness and fear. All voices matter, every life sacred, Knowledge and empathy bring us near. Bridges built on mutual respect, A future bright and free from strife, Resilience in the face of hate, we thrive.
"It's coming down to nothing more than apathy". Agree with the conclusion that this is the end-game of neoliberalism, and tbh it feels like it's almost won. How come we can't organise now, when the world has seen million+ person marches in the past, with no technology? As inherently scary as any form of nationalism is to me, it might be that energy is required to smash the current political system - next election is going o be interesting.
So many people can't get a GP appointment, timely medical care, housing, are suffering from the cost of living crisis etc and yet there's about 700k net people coming into the country each year, which can only exacerbate things. Thank you 33:00 for highlighting that it is indeed the poor communities who are suffering from this and I think those privileged tend to look past these mitigating circumstances and instead look at the horrendous (but perhaps inevitable?) events we are seeing unfolding before us and believe that anyone attending or associating with this protestation must simply be violent, idiotic racists (which obviously some are). There's no excuse for attacking innocent people or their properties, but I can't help but feel that the mainstream media just doesn't want to touch the various social economic factors and instead focus on the consequences, the "the far-right" and misinformation on social media.
To be intolerant of intolerant people is a great position, this should be the British way, yet many British media and those in a position of status are tolerant of those who hold religious beliefs that are intolerant of other’s beliefs.
Musk had been saying fully autonomous driving is six months away for the last 7 years (until recently) and that is when he's talking about something he is deeply involved in, so I think we can dismiss his insights into the political volatility of this country...
Starmer needs to put forward the narrative that this is the predictable consequence of 1) austerity 2) failure to process asylum claims through the proper legal routes 3) populist dog-whistle rhetoric and 4) that all of these have been actioned by his political opponents. He then needs to get busy reversing them.
The far right riots have let the right down terribly. I'm a centerist (slightly center right these days) and the protest from the right contained some genuine and sensible concerns, all of which is being ignored because a couple of hundred have rioted out of the many thousands that are protesting. To classify everyone protesting as far right racists is just as extreme as calling everyone protesting in the pro Palestine events as far right racists (because a smaller portion of them were pro hamas and pro n@zi), despite many within the pro palestine protests not being pro hamas and having some fair points to be heard, regardless of elements of naivety.
what are those genuine concerns? unless some people were genuinely just ignorant of what was going on at what they were attending i feel like the purpose of these protests and riots are quite blatant and pretty racist in whats being spread the vilent action probably doesnt help but to me atleast even if they arent participating in the violence by being near enough to enable it and marching with them is kinda showing a complicity to the views of those spewing the and acting in the riot? We are allowed to be angry at the fact that a bunch of mugs have set fire to buildings, injured police, chose targets and spoke in a way that is threatening to muslims and immigrants, from some of the things ive seen the active targetting of muslims, obbing bricks around. The sentiment is that the purpose of the riot is islamaphobic. Thats why they are being included in that atleast for me, i accept there are those that probably hold no affiliations that want in on action and those just observing but to be honest if you they wanted to not be included in a riot sparked by racist rhetoric maybe they should have separated themselves more and chose more appropriate times and places to do it but they didnt they followed the mob so why would i believe they didnt. The palestine events and a riot are also very different
@@baileybruce145 Its not racist to voice concerns/demands that immigration is more carefully managed. Immigration is ultimately a good thing, but with it, there is fair argument to ask for manageable numbers or infrastructure plans to make the numbers manageable. Equally, there is fair argument for greater procedures in place to improve the integration of immigrants in to British society. For example, if you travelled to say Japan or Spain wanting to experience the Japanese or Spanish culture, you would be very disappointed if when you arrived in a particular town, it was 70% British people, with British shops and British cuisine. It's not racist to say those British should be better integrated into the Japanese or Spanish culture.
@@PhageTheFinalCure sure but i feel like theres probably more pressing matters, that sure immigration might contribute to but arguably are probably not the first thing that needs to happen to fix our economy or the services, as a result it does feel like its more of a scape goat than anything else and to me i feel like its something that been used by a lot of tories and told constantly to us, i.e brexit was not about the economic possibilities of leaving the single market it was getting immigrants out of the country, in terms of how its marketed, i can see that people might genuinely have concerns but from discussions ive had its not from nuanced takes about the systm and how to improve its just that we cant taken them or that theyre criminals and so on, its hard not to feel like the immigration argument in england doesnt have racist undertones when most of the rhetoric related to it generally others and demonises them, grooming gangs, stop the boats, criminality in general, whatever brexit campaign was. And honestly if people want to have a discussion about it with genuine arguments not whatever is pedalled by gbnew, then i guess they can but not now to me if you feel like arguing it now in the wake of the riots it feels like a cover for them, give it a few months maybe, also as it seems like the common thing to have done probably best not to start a proper argument with an whataboutism which is not really anywhere near the level of a riot to start the argument
@@baileybruce145 I appreciate your comment, it's rare to have proper discourse in a comment section. I guess what it comes down to is how much of it you think is disguised racism and how much of it is legitimate concerns that people want heard and addressed/discussed. The extent of where a person lands on that viewpoint can be heavily swayed by which media sources you watch, the BBC or channel4 would almost never interview attendees to these protests and look for reasoned replies, they appear to only follow and show the sub section of violent people, and if they were to interview a protester (which I've yet to see them do, as they seems utterly uninterested in an opposing opinion), they would be sure to only show the village idiot/racist that makes the 'everyone there's a racist' point that they want to make. Equally if you were to follow right wing media, you would see limited rioting (because they don't want to show that), any shown would be frowned upon and plenty of civil protesting performed by thousands, with members proving reasoned answers as to why they are there. Unfortunately neither side is willing to watch the opposing sides media sources because it's too distasteful to them and they cannot hear any legitimate information from opposing media because over the video their brain is screaming racist bigots or woke p3d0 (depending on their political leaning). Ultimately, making no attempt to hear what the right wingers are saying will only result in a worsening of the situation, as it seems to me that its got this bad because they've felt ignored on this topic for decades. It's needs to be discussed with facts and statistics, and everyone needs to remove their emotional blindfold (left wing and right wing). As for 'whataboutism', it's important to address labelling, it's easier to help someone understand wrong doing on their part when they can see how they feel about the equivalent role reversal. There were swastikas and calls for genuine genocide within some sub groups of the pro Palestine protests, it would be wrong to label/tar everyone protesting as the same as that racist hateful sub group. This is why it is wrong to label the current protests as far right fascist extremism, when only sub group within it are and only a sub group within it are carrying out violence.
Punching and battering Muslim people walking down the street is not "genuine and sensible concerns". Ganging up on and battering random Black people is not "legitimate protest". Stopping people in the street and dragging them out of their cars is not "centrist". Stopping people in cars and allowing others to pass based on the colour of their skin is not "naivete". Ollie said MULTIPLE times that he was not classifying everyone with concerns about immigration as Far Right, but if you're at a protest and people are trying to burn down mosques and hotels, making slit throat gestures at families and individuals, you're not neutral. If the perpetrators were Black and a stabbing occurs, the law prosecutes people ALL present even if they took no part in the crime and even if they disagreed with "legitimate concerns" about its committal - it's called 'Joint Enterprise' and it was the Right that brought that in. I'm sure you'd be all over that. You don't get to "Bothsides" this one.
A complete waste of time thought experiment that I like is, if Starmer had been the Labour leader in 2017, would they have performed any better or worse in the 2017 and/or 2019 elections? If not, would Corbyn being leader in 2020 had meant Labour did any better or worse in the 2024 election?
People had the time during Covid to help their communities because a lot of people weren't working. It's one of the reasons the protests against George Floyd's killing were so well attended World wide.
The problem with land-based liberal nationalism is that it comes very close to far right wing nationalism in the sense that they would say they also feel a strong connection to the land, and that's why they want to keep people from other countries coming in and "taking it from us."
Laura spitting mad facts. Her best episode to date.
Honestly, Laura and Ed are the best pod team! Ollie and Ava will do if Ed and Laura are busy.
She's clearly very well read. Deffo her best appearance to date
Laura always brings the heat, great stuff
Just wish Ollie would take a few more pauses to let her speak. It’s 80%+ him.
She's great.
Don't let Priti Patel launder her image, she's just as responsible for this as Farage et al.
People are not misled by these public avatars, their opinions are represented by them. Acknowledging this startlingly obvious point will help you sound like less of a condescending prick.
💯
@@bluj78so youre saying Priti Patel represents your views?
@@bluj78 people fundamentally are misled by politicians, as they are constantly lying and using logical fallacies to misrepresent their policies and the issues for which they are responsible. If you feel represented by them, it's because you bought the lie.
No @@Tristslayerhe is saying the OP sounds like a prick, but I didn't see that.
These two are siloed, as we all are. "We" need to step up on the peace vibe because violence is not the answer...
"We beat up Muslims, we smashed up the shops of Muslims, we target mosques, but we are not fascists". Everyone who's arrested for rioting should be forced to watch the 'Rise of the Nazis' or a similar show, see if they can equate themselves with the brown shirts.
So during the Rwandan genocide, which side has to watch "the rise of the Nazis" or similar? Apply that logic to pretty much everyone who has had to pick up a bat to another bat...
@@MeatFeast-qk7nd so you’re saying these racist riots are the beginnings of a genocide like Rwanda? Interesting 🤔
@@MeatFeast-qk7nd 1. What exactly does the Rwandan genocide have to do with the UK? Trying to defend the riots while comparing their actions to a genocide is interesting though... I guess.
2. There is a big difference between burning buildings and literally going village to village exterminating people, the far-right in this country are not in a position to be able to do that yet.
3. If you must have an answer though, the Hutu, they were the ethnic group in power in Rwanda who coordinated the whole thing. But Rwandans have no need to watch the 'Rise of the Nazis' as they have no historical context in doing so. We fought the Nazis for what they believed in and did, now people are happily getting into bed with their ideology.
A lot of them idolise Nazis already. It would have no effect.
@@theyoutubeguy1 it doesn't specifically, as I stated. We could apply it across the board, why does it always have to be Nazis also, plenty of fuckwits to choose from...
Years ago I was on the tube arriving at Highbury and Islington, not knowing a football match had ended. As the train pulled in, the platform was utterly packed with guys who seemingly waited patiently for us to all leave the train. Until they didn't, and it only took one voice. As myself, an elderly lady and a woman with a pushchair were about to step off the train, one guy said loudly, "Aw I'm fed up of this! Come on!" and stepped onto the train giving permission for a rush of people entering the train. As three women, me a sprightly 30 at the time tried to leave, we were physically pushed back by the guys boarding on mass. It was truly scary and I had to yell "Hey, we're trying to leave the train!" One solitary guy stepped aside and held a couple of guys back so we could exit. There was no aggression or violence, just frustration and some alcohol. But it only took one voice to collate a group to move en masse, and those couple of minutes have stayed with me for almost 20 years! I cannot imagine the fear these neighbourhoods are having to experience from organised, angry and violent groups of guys turning up and just how easy it is for riots to escalate.
I truly wonder whether the intensity, organisation and vitriol of the gangs turning up at these 'events' would be so strong, had there never been a Trump presidency. He is the ultimate permission giver and it feels naïve not to consider the influence of the MAGA movement thanks to social media, and how it amplifies and encourages the worst and most divisive instincts of people.
Cameron started with the rhetoric while trump was still playing US alan sugar, trump is a product of modern media, reality tv and social media, the man is in truth politically agnostic (he doesn't believe in anything but marketing and advertising). He's literally just playing the "social market"... what we need to look at and hold to account are the politicians that created and fertilised the ground for trump to even grow in... he's an effect not a cause 🤔🤔🤔🙏
Exactly. Trump gave people like Farage permission to shout their BS as loud as they could.
Regarding the example of Oswald Mosely, whom you briefly discussed, it should not be forgotten that in the 1930's, he was far more dangerously popular and influential than is now recognised. In many walks of life in Britain back then, antisemitism was quite normal and acceptable dinner table talk among the upper, middle and among 'the lower classes', of a certain ilk.
The war with Hitler changed all that, obviously, but it was not until the early 1960's that the remnants of antisemitic language in jokes phrases and sayings really stopped being common. By that time, of course, racism had a different scapegoat!
100% I think many venerate the war effort as this symbol of Britains high morality. It couldn’t be anything further from the truth. There is a dangerous lack of nuance when remembering British 2nd WW and Post war culture. Many were still racist despite the successful attack on Nazism. Racism persisted in the 50s,60s despite this great United front against the right and racism. Anti Nazism doesn’t equal anti racism, I know this well from experience and a closer examination supports this truth strongly.
As we still see today, the institutions - Westminster, police, army - were incredibly racist. Furthermore local communities across the UK were incredibly hostile to non white people. Some of the journalists Joe are connected to will tell you of their experience as evidence to this. It wasn’t this simple ‘we kicked out racists in our backyard before, we will do it again’. Evidently the success and truth of this is misleading.
Did you ever watch 'Till death do us part'?
The racist was the butt of the joke.
I don't really think Mosley was all that influential or popular.
The BUF peaked at a (claimed) 50,000 members at time when the Labour and the Conservative Parties had membership numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
Mosley's "New Party" (which only lasted a year) got most of its success out of a pro-keynesian policy platform and largely benefitted from the crash of the Labour Party vote because of their alliance with the conservatives.
Once the BUF adopted an anti-semitic position its membership crashed to under 8,000 members and Mosley himself started condemning anti-semitism.
They never won a single parliamentary seat.
Whilst anti-semitism was absolutely a thing - much of the language we're seeing today, and the actions that are being perpetuated are actually much more disturbing than Mosley.
Tell that to all the pro palastine supporters
The fact the thugs use the phrases coined by politicians who have been pandering to people's prejudices and preconceptions ought to be a salutory lesson for Conservative leaders.
they know already, that's why they do it.
Like these aren't reprisals for losing the election
@supernovalabs what election? No one voted for Labour
😊❤❤❤😢😂❤😢😊❤😮
I would argue the real fascists in the West are in our governments, constantly colluding with western global Big Businesses.
I feel like "Far-centre" needs to be introduced into the public lexicon. A position where you're so set on political balance that you're unwilling to engage with the reality of what's taking place around you.
the "centre" spent the last 7 years attacking the left while this racist movement was building. The centre are so fucking useless.
Far-out
Why are people trying to rewrite political definitions like what we’re going through is special in some way and has never happened before.
I'm not far center but certainly like balance. Those Muslim boys need to slow their roll and chill out before they suck the sympathy out of those in power.
That's appeasement, Neville Chamberlain before WW2 or spoofed in Harry Potter as Cornelius Fudge. Just pure denial really.
Look at sentencing for stop oil, 2,years for peacefully protest, so what are the people attacking police and racist attacks going to get sentenced??? Lets watch and see.
Wasn't it three and five years?
18 year old got 3 months I believe for smashing car windows
Yes your correct 5 and 4 years @@jamestoday2239
@@lolaenguita2971think another got a year community service, does not seem right.
@@johnkelly9262 It's really not, but I suppose with the amount of arrests being made, they'll only have so much prison space and save the hefty sentences to those who they'll make examples of.
Laura was so insightful this episode 👏 Would love to hear more from her
☝
The RationalWiki article on 'Just Asking Questions' has a section referring to it as "JAQing off" - I vote we all start calling it that
Did the British empire fight Nazi Germany because they were Nazis or was it because German expansionism threatened the British empire & the anti fascist bit was good narrative after the event?
As a country it's easier for us to talk about 6 million Jews killed by Nazis than over a hundred million Indians killed during the Raj, then when racist stuff happens here everybody seems to be shocked.
Oswald is a bit of an exception for the British ruling elite in that he faced some consequences for his fascism, all the others just had to go quiet for a bit & learn how to be sneaky, they didn't lose their wealth or privilege.
True. Sure half of Europe openly collaborated with the Nazis, and helped them round up Jews. A lot of Nazis lived very long lives. This fascism and xenophobia, white power ideology has always been there under the surface. Its barely been 2 generations between WW2 and now.
It’s an interesting one. I’ve always felt the latter was the main thrust of the conflict. However, the conflict involved going against everything Nazi Germany stood for, which included its type of fascism and racism. The former is more of a by-product, than a motive. Also, the former has been a focus of historical narratives, as it is a better story with a greater moral bases.
However, that is just my opinion based on my own studies and thoughts on WW2.
Exactly, Winston Churchill being a famous example.
Wow I’ve never heard anyone put that question before. Probably due to my lack of knowledge and brainwashing from school. I thought hitler was only interested in Europe, so how did that threaten the British empire. Or was the axis the threat to the British empire?
@rohanharridge5579 We should never forget that opinion polls show the British public were provably less in favour of allowing Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany entry to the UK in the 1930s than they were of allowing Syrian refugees fleeing the civil war entry in the 2010s
You're completely right, there has been an awful lot of historical revisionism, and I think that "fighting the regime that inflicted the Holocaust on Europe" was a moral justification invented after the fact when it was really about stopping territorial gains
This conversation is so smart, thoughtful, intellectual, and endearing. It's made me realise how toxic my feed is these days. I need more people like you two in my life.
Novara media is good too
@@24eu I agree, they are truly refreshing in the current media landscape. It’s really helped me not to give up hope.
Day 45 of asking for a production team microphone
Hambug, they can just shout, what are their 🫁 lungs for if not shouting.
Shure smb7
I recommend everyone look up Karl Poppers tolerance paradox
Roughly summed up: “in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance”
I’m also a great believer that the left has to win back the mantle of patriotism, best exemplified by good folk expressing “not in my name” and “love not hate”.
A patriot loves his country and countries are made of people. The man who hates his neighbour is no patriot
Who decides who is intolerant ? You might argue many muslims are 'intolerant '.
A Jewish philosopher leaves Austria during the Nazi occupation and defends the institution of British pluralism and liberalism against the urge towards totalitarianism doesn’t resonate with violent white gangs doing Nazi salutes, shouting racist slogans and burning private property
Street violence, racism, threats to people safety on the basis of their origins or religion are illiberal.
Personally the opposition to authoritarian and totalitarian fits a liberal model and modern progressives far better than rioters.
@@samueldodd5592 is that the book name 'the open society'
also what type of leftist because far left i could see why, less so liberal left
That is exactly the spirit we need now 🙌
An episode that tackles complex issues without making bum jokes? Outrageous.
I for one will be making a complaint to Ofcom
Best discussion I've heard so far on this. Great content guys
are you kidding me? this is heavily biased to the left not once did they condemn the muslim gangs attacking people.
@ianclose123 you reckon get getting dragged out of your car because of your skin colour is a joke?
Politics Joe should make a video series that shows the best of Britain, like how imagration add to their community and other positive aspects. We need a counter-narrative, and I think it's something Joe could do well.
The problem is that when you try to engage with the people that need to hear it, it's like trying to show a flat earther that the earth isn't flat. Facts don't matter to them, only they're ideology.
No one can seriously argue against immigration - humans have done that since the year dot. As Britians we successfully colonised large sections of the world because of it. Was does need to be looked at is the large upscaling of migration to this country. When even the children of the migrant generation in Britain are seeing the issues being caused, you need to start addressing the numbers. Rioting achieves nothing - the thugs should be dealt with. Just the same as dealing with the thugs in leeds a couple of weeks ago, the thugs in manchester surrounding a police station - right back to the thugs of 2011 who destroyed parts of london and other areas.
You can cherry-pick anything to prove whatever you want, it's kind of meaningless. The objective stats on immigration are dreadful - higher crime, net tax drain, etc.
We do need more of this. I do also think we need more community forums to bring together different people from all walks of life across the country. In actual real life.
As a regularly follower of the podcast, you knocked this one out of the park. Excellent analysis and such a thoughtful and interesting discussion. Great work guys!
Get more Laura on the show, insightful and incredible hair. Oli is great but hair is fine.
Yes, really well said, two ideological viewpoints. Community support, assistance and solidarity vs hate, violence and intimidation. The latter groups are small, fractured but very motivated.
the vast majority of the country wants less immigration. accept the UNIPARTY GOVERNMENT WONT STOP IT! ITS THE FAULT OF THE LABOUR AND CONSERVATIVE PARTIES SINCE 1945!
The discussion on what is British and where they draw the line between race and generations is an interesting one. Hold with me here, butI think the Proclaimers sand about it brilliantly in ‘Scotland’s Story’ -The Gael and the Pict, the Angle and Dane
From Pakistan, England and from the Ukraine
We're all Scotland's story and we're all worth the same
Your Scotland's story is worth just the same
Love podcasts, Hate Fascist Extremism
Please do not confuse tolerance with weakness.
Or intolerance with strength
really appreciating an in depth discussion on this awful situation by Olli and Laura
Oli says "Ordinary hope is... the British desire... when the England football team win a penalty shootout." And therein lies the problem with this debate: England can't untie itself from "Britishness", doesn't understand itself, and has no interest in the other three nations.
It's a placeholder for the same concepts that work across all of the countries in the UK, to be fair.
@@wirezts Yes, but OP is saying that's the issue
@@samuelmelton8353 yes, but I'm retorting that the "Britishness" effect is applicable to all of the nations, Oli just used football as an example for England and his point was valid. The OPs argument is a different argument. Maybe still a valid one, but it isn't the "problem with this debate".
@@wirezts I'm saying, and I think what OP is saying, is that it is only applicable in England.
The Scots don't use Scotland and the UK interchangeably in the way many English people do.
The UK is essentially England with three extra bits that extend its influence.
@@samuelmelton8353 In context of this apparent argument related to the actual context of the quote from the podcast, not the "England is not Britain" one which is separate, I think that what Oli said about England celebrating football is applicable to all of the nations in different ways. With sport (maybe Rugby is applicable at the same level as England with football), or with other cultural "treasures" of normalcy that are overall British, separate from the differences within the nations.
I see the point you're making, but I don't think it's relevant to what Oli was getting at - the point he was making was at a higher level and in a different context.
Semantics is the key to so much of this. We need to urgently re-examine our use of language. 'Tolerance' in particular is an ultimately dangerous word. Tolerance is in no way what we should be aiming for in society. Day-to-day we tolerate tooth ache, a leaky tap, or draughty windows. But ultimately these things need fixing before they become something worse. Tolerance also indicates a colonial level of entitlement which tells us that those who tolerate have the power to take that tolerance away at any moment. We should be seeking to embrace difference or call out hate. not just tolerate.
I’ve always hated the idea of ‘tolerance’ for the same reasons you describe. It sounds like just putting up with people.
i've always liked what Chris Hedges says about fighting fascists (racists and the like), "we don't fight fascists because we think we'll win, we fight fascists because they're fascists."
Ideologists without a brain appear to be equally dangerous from where I'm sitting
Laura, you really found your voice on this ep and it rang out. Great commentary and insight. The Scots really carry this show.
Oli, I don't understand your insistence on constructing a left nationalism (as put forward in the first half). I think this is a rightwing trap some leftists fall into, accidentally conceding nationalism is a useful construct at all.
Nationalism is when the predominant sub-identity of a person is centered around their perceived nation. This perceived nation is often an ethnic nation, leading to tribalism and an inability to criticize the nation state that, on the surface, maps to the perceived nation, except in situations in which the nation state does not correspond to perceived nation. This is why, for example, English nationalists can proudly display swastikas, even though Nazi Germany was in opposition to the British nation state; in their perceived English nation, there is no room for Jews, non-white immigrants, and others they deem deviant.
A more useful way for us lefties to exploit the existence of the nation state is to conceptualize a national pride. Be proud of the achievements our nations have made in favor of the common person, while simultaneously showing sadness and dismay when the nation state fails us presently, or has failed us in the past.
Nation-states are a sad fact of life right now, but that doesn't mean us lefties should build arguments around it if we want to progress past them.
There is a reason the Internationale starts with 'arise, wretched of the earth', instead of 'arise, wretched of [insert nation state here]'.
yes the mongrel mixed race world future of the elitist left. Free labour for me and poverty for thee. Did you set up a nice Chinese beaurocratic CCP job? The left is agianst the existance of culture identity and seperateness. the oldest nations on earth are nation states China Greece Egypt. All multiethnic empires collpase only nation states exist.
Well that was very high brow! Respect for Laura's knowledge on this!
Gentlemen, this is PoliticsJoe manifest. One of the best episodes to date, Laura is fantastic.
Well said, Laura. Inequality is the root of this. If the people rioting think removing immigrants is going to make their lives better than they have another thought coming.
Exactly. They have no end goal because it will ALWAYS be something else that's arbitrarily making the UK worse.
Well said, Rotherham, Telford etc are a price I'm willing to pay if it means I have access to Kebabs at 3am.
Does anyone remember how heavily Liam Neeson suffered when he alluded to wanting to attack any "black" man because someone else had been attacked ? Why are Nigel Farage etc not being called out and shouted down like he was ?
Particularly when you consider that Neeson’s whole point in telling the story was to highlight how pointless and destructive that kind of thinking is. He realised how stupid he was being and was thankful that he hadn’t got around to harming anyone while he was in that mindset.
Nigel Farage hasn’t made racist comments about Black people though? People are fed up of migrants leaving safe countries to come to the UK to attack people and contribute nothing to society.
Do you remember the black man calling for an attack on one was an attack on all?
@@MeatFeast-qk7nd When the far-right are being so threatening that is understandable. I am a Catholic in Belfast it used to happen us !!
@@GorgeDawes Yeah we wouldn't have even known if he had those thoughts unless he had shared them. Thought it was awful he was condemned for confessing a shameful secret.
"Love Podcasts hate Nonces"
Can't argue with that statement :)
Unless you're Huw Edwards
hates a podcast does Huw.
I wish Keir Starmer would have explained the ‘2 tier policing’ thing the way Priti Patel has. His refusal to elaborate makes it look like he’s not telling the truth about it.
That conversation on nationalism was fascinating, cos it had Oli coming back with a couple of lovely points after some interesting questions from Laura. And then he never asked similar questions back.
My suggestion would be a new kind of education framework and government ministry for immigrants/expats/foreigners living in UK. Build colleges designed for integration that train people coming into the country in needed skills, while teaching them the history, culture, and language of their new home. Yes, all paid for by the British taxpayer. We WILL see the benefit of this more than making immigrants work as hard as possible to come in, spend all their money, join insulated communities, and then somehow be grateful for being granted something they worked for.
I think the problem is that most of these people think that a homogenous society is possible when it isn't. If you have even a small number of immigrants coming in regularly, integrating and breeding in society, you will eventually have a mixed race country. They may not like it but they have to come to terms with the fact that the thing they desire is impossible outside of North Korea.
I live in Japan and the speed at which this is moving away from being homogenous is staggering. It is scary for Japanese people. They have a culture worth preserving but you will never preserve it by holding back reality. The culture that doesn't adapt, dies.
Britain needs to work on preserving its culture, not resisting outside ones. You can argue that it is desirable to keep the way of life we have "always had" (which is not really true unless most of us are slaves serving the aristocracy - the only constant is change) but it is still impossible and most of these people are scared and think they can win when they can't.
Could you put links to the interviews you mention in the podcasts in the show notes if possible? Like the one Ollie talks about at 23 mins 40 secs about patriotism of fear and anxiety. Thank you!
Thank you Laura for pointing out the disenfranchisement of deprived places being the cause, there's an obvious correlation. But it's still not being talked about enough.
Because to do so means to acknowledge the classist and by intersection the racist degradation of our communities by people who claim to be of the same ethnic origin as themselves. That level of Cognitive dissonance the Right is not prepared to face yet.
Oli's ideas are well-meant but so far off imo. People don't give af about Mill or classical liberalism (why should they when the liberal order is falling apart?), and Germany (where I live) is probably even more f-d than the UK at the moment, certainly not somewhere to look to for a more “progressive“ model of nationalism. If you want to have an England flag, chant about nonces, and go on rowdy stag holidays to Prague, then do, but be real about it and don't let your cognitive dissonance stop you from seeing what's staring you right in the face.
Honestly one of my favourite episodes so far. Great analysis, thank you
Great conversation guys. Less of the shite jokes and messing around and more serious discussion lol. Seriously though really enjoyed this one.
Agree 100%, possibly my age at 63, I do find the usual round table tedious, with all the giggling, silly banter & usually switch off. I do like the one to one interviews, Olly mostly does.😅
@@SuperMarion61 Tbf, it’s Ollie that makes them do the “banter”. It’s like having a work outing where the boss want everyone to have fun…..
@@col.hertford9855 Nah, it's Ava and Ed.
agree to disagree, the jokes and banter are great (in my subjective opinion) and we need political media that entertains as well as informs, even if it isn’t everyone’s cup of tea (all the more need for a broader range of content creators overall). on the flipside I love the Novara team but they’re a bit too dry for my personal taste so PolJoe gets my attention much more regularly
Incredible analysis by Laura, talking about plausible deniability
The way independent media like y'all discuss this in the UK gives me hope for us here in america this type of commentary was rare after Charlottesville and I wish I could have heard some of this commentary then. Ollie I love you you get it right 9/10 times (If we inckude charkotte Owens) and Laura never fails to be blunt on how she sees it even if Ava towers over her in frame. I appreciate that even with how much I've studied Uk and Us history as someone with a major in Modern Euro history and a special interest in colonialism every point is something ssomewhat new and relatable. I will love politics joe till i die
You're talking about Welsh and Scottish nationalism. Civic, inclusive. It's been vilified, however, by England for decades.
Well of coarse
eng-gerrr-lish nationalism trumps them all DUUUHH!!
Until recently the figurative leader of Scottish nationalism was a devout and open Muslim with Pakistani heritage. Scottish nationalism has done the work of embracing multiculturalism to the point at which Scottish unionism and its most rabid flag waving associates are negatively polarising against all that centre-left Scottish nationalism has come to represent
@@caseysmith4206 such a competent and DEI leader right? what happened to him?
@@covfefe1787 His competence has little to do with it, as he was outed just like his white Scottish predecessors that equally lacked competence.
Don’t forget how Cornwall’s culture has been completely eliminated
BTW regardless of content: I like the format with starting with "just a chat", it lets me get into the vibe before talking about real stuff. Podcasts that start with "hello, today, horrible things" sometimes lose me early.
I’m seeing a lot of discussion atm in the uk about the paradox of tolerance. You can’t live in a tolerant society and tolerate the intolerant, so you must be vigilant against racists homophobes et cetera… and I agree, but I just think it’s the wrong starting point. I don’t care about living in a tolerant society. We, as a society, have our values. I think is more on the point.
The crux of the conflict is not “who are we willing to tolerate”, it’s a question of what our collective values are.
Fantastic discussion guys. Some of the best I’ve heard on this topic.
Even as a leftist, I find Keir's "authoritarian" box-ticking and to-the-point rhetoric incredibly refreshing. Deal with the stupid short term problem radically and effectively, get back to the abstract and people-serving you're supposed to be doing as a PM for the next 5 years. So far, he's turning up as exactly the PM I hoped for.
I’ll tell you what is notable too: how quiet are the Lib Dems? What will happen to their seats in the next parliament when people perhaps no longer vote tactically?
What a great pod, no stupid 15min side pedo jokes and other childish nonsense. A refreshing deep thinking debate and insightful thoughts.
We'll done
“are paedos back?”
“no, they’re side”
Douglas Murray spewed "great replacement theory" nonsense as well...
Farage, Priti Patel, Suella Braverman, GB News, Talk TV, and the list goes on -- all fascists...
It's not racist to say our public services are falling apart. Towns and people being left behind and if they complain they're far right.
I agree with you it’s not right saying to want to debate these matters is racist. It’s too easy to shut things down when we ask questions about multiculturalism, immigration integration etc. We seem to be ignoring the issues that un controlled immigration causes to all concerned and it seems to be all political parties are really too scared to deal with it.
@sarahwhiting325 they don't mind the division, helps maintain control and categorize people. I just find it funny how situational it is... Olympics, be patriotic, join the military, be patriotic. Everything else bad.
An element you didn't speak about were the quiet fascists. Those who have scary beliefs and were not participating in any of the violence.
I do wonder if Laura found a sort of calm and focused Peter Hitchens type on her travels
I learned today that the legal definition of a riot is 12 or more people acting together to persue a goal using violence or the threat of violence. I also learned that police authorities can be sued for damage caused by riots, except to vehicles, so long as the person suing was not involved in the rioting. This then got me to thinking that that may have influenced the language used by authorities to describe the unrest (Starmer: "right wing thuggery") and the style of policing used. Are the police protecting people, or property for which they may have to pay compensation? That might perhaps explain different policing styles in city centres / affluent areas to less well off more residential areas. Or perhaps Im being too cynical.
Wow! A great podcast that didn't descend into bum and vag jokes for the majority of the stream, Ava is cool, but she doesn't relent with the jokes and Ed just feeds off it. Laura was knowledgeable, insightful, interesting and brought astute analysis to the table. Ollie also matched her and clearly enjoyed the conversation and it showed, bringing out some VERY insightful takes on that narratives that even the likes of Novara have missed. Can Laura come back for good please!!
Laura makes the others stop being kids
Yes Jay, I prefer Laura's approach or vibe over Ava's, I don't really like the words "vibe" or "approach" but they're the only that entered my head so they'll have to do. 🙂
Probably would have been easier to simply say I agree with you. 😉
Novara show no intellectual empathy for the rioters which is needed to have a serious conversation
@@mikey3666tends to be with Novara that it is always one-sided bashing as opposed to discourse. I agree with most of what they ultimately say, but there's never any depth to their output. It's Fox News from the other side essentially.
Brilliant and great to hear more Laura.
While there is some truth to changes in voting behaviour. It’s simplistic to say that people wanted to vote for socialists rather than Starmer / centre left.
This isn’t really the case. The left has been demonised to the working classes for decades now - with more working class folks voting Tory than Labour for years.
Corbyn was the most left wing candidate possibly ever. He considered himself to be the left of Attlee. But was roundly rejected by that demographic.
What is more likely is through the decline in the union movement, left wing industry jobs in coal mining etc disappearing. This demographic has felt increasingly left behind, and like in other countries; they’ve gone right, not left.
As for the drop in vote share for Labour, it’s not clear cut: we know from Carol Vordaman’s work that millions voted tactically. But the nature of things, the vote share drop should be a reflection of tactical voting. Until the riots, Starmer and Labour’s popularity in polls had shot up.
Sorry all minor points. Enjoyed rest of the pod.
"Corbyn was the most left wing candidate possibly ever. He considered himself to be the left of Attlee. But was roundly rejected by that demographic." Untrue. Even in 2019 he got half a million more votes than Starmer did. He had a majority of support among the working class. And Corbyn is barely a social democrat his manifesto was to the right of any post-war Labour PM. Stop repeating stuff in the Daily Mail.
Riots in UK? None in Scotland. Any comments? I’ve lived in England recently and Scotland truly feels like a different country. Possibly civic nationalism still very strong due to 50% of population still wanting Independence. Comments re SNP loss of seats recently is not relevant as civic nationalism not due to whether SNP have majority of MPs in Westminster.
My Montrose family took in Poles during WWII. Dad joined the SNP in the mid-1950s, yet reminded me that one of Glasgow's favourite sons is named Armando Iannucci. Now I'm in Canada, taking every opportunity to distinguish this country from its southerly neighbour. I can see why many Scots do the same.
Very well said sir..... kudos
Less people and the Scottish have a narrative to create an inclusive society. They have campaigns aimed at creating civic inclusion, and they also pair that with a common goal of disliking the English. The Scottish have a formula for integrating new people and bridging political ideology. While the English have no common goal and conflicting ideas of what it means to be English or British or ect...
The SNP have been really good at channeling the Nationalist movement in 100% peaceful way. I don’t think they, and the Scottish people get enough credit for how rare that is. Other independence movements have been mired with violence.
Maybe the British government should occasionally look north…
@@UkSapyy becuase scotland is 92% WHITE IT IS A WHITE ETHNO STATE! THE MEDIA PROJECTS A NARRATIVE OF DIVERSITY THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST IN SCOTLAND WALES AND NORTHERN IRELAND.
The gmb "poll" on is multicuturalism working was so incredibly loaded I couldn't quite believe the audacity of it
Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland finally united this weekend! Unfortunate that they're united as fellow racists
@ianclose123 says the racist
@@ianclose123 Nonsense
@@ianclose123Found one
@@ianclose123You're targeting a specific group of people because of their ethnic background and religious beliefs, with violence. Try and explain how that isn't outright fascism, which it absolutely is?
Religion had very little to do with it. The organisers wanted the event to be seen as cross community, they were also being protested by a cross community group.
This podcast gets better and better ❤
Where are the young idealists in all this? My mum was in the International Brigade, confronted fascists in the East End and took a train to Spain. I'm sure she's turning in her grave, why did she bother?
best convo ive heard on politics joe in a while, oli and laura i think are a good combo, less wet wipe centrist bollocks than usual
Superb chat.
Well done both, thanks
An interesting and well thought through discussion. Very enjoyable!
It's a real shame that this is coincidencing with the Olympics, one of the few times it feels good to be British and this bull is going on
The labour party ain't centre ground it's right wing would rather have Johnson than Jeremy corbyn says it all really
Billy Bragg's book 'Progressive Patriot' is a good place to start.
Given he is a Brexshitter, I have listened to nothing he ever wrote or said since then.
someone tell the video editor to key out the cast from the green screen (glow on the table and people's clothes etc). it's easy to do.
Pretty impressed with PoliticsJoe for their thoughful discussions with a smile and a joke.
Loved this episode! Great factual discussion
Excellent episode, more of what everyone needs
One of your best!
I understand the intention of people bringing up invasions of the Norse, Normans, Anglo-Saxons and Romans is to point out that very few people can truly claim to be originally British and thus establish a fallacy in their arguments against people of colour not being considered so, however, I can't help but think that invoking conquest and colonisation by the aforementioned groups rather plays into some of the rhetoric many use to dub current immigration as invasive and colonising.
Yes exactly. I worry about that too. Immigration and asylum seekers are obviously vastly different to invading armies. I’ve literally seen the fascists using rhetoric referring to refugees and migrants as an invasion of ‘fighting age males’.
On the point about English Nationalism, this is exactly what Caroline Lucas’ new book (“Another England: How to Reclaim Our National Story”) is about.
She recognises that pride in England or English identity, (rather than Britain/British), has been co-opted and corrupted by the far-right, to the point where the English flag is often seen as a racist/far-right symbol, outside of sporting events.
The whole point of the book is for progressives to reclaim the idea of England and English identity, by looking at all the things that we can and should be proud of.
She does so by exploring literature (like Chaucer and Virginia Woolf), but uses it to paint a picture of not just our history, but how it can shape an English identity today and in the future… suggesting how it could inspire new arguments for things like a Universal Basic Income or modern environmentalism.
Best posdcast yet. You actually stayed on point for once! 😅
It's a cultural clash. The goverment is failing to resolve/adres some concerns people have with the cultural differences, and as a result we have a mob lashing out at innocent people...
There's good to be found in all cultures, but that doesn't mean people will accept everything that another culture brings/teaches within their borders. There are certain cultures that simply clash with our western morals and values, and they need help to better integrate into our society (or not get in at all).
How "intollerant to intollerance" have the British been towards the spread of hadith's?? (religious muslim texts that call out for the extermination of all Jews)
What help do immigrants recieve to integrate, when they come from a culture where there's no sexual freedom for women?
What's been done to increase the acceptance of gay people within a culture or religion, where homophobia is being taught and the norm?
How actively are illegal child marriages being tracked down, and are the parents and everybody involved with the wedding prosecuted?
Are mosques monitored for imams that spread hatespeech, and are they prosecuted/deported? Specially those imams who call out fatwa's (assassination of a person) and litteral jihads? (declaration of war that permits terrorist attacks on a country, not to be confused with your "inner" Jihad, which means the struggle with yourself)
When a goverment is failing to adress these concerns, riots like these become inevitable. I may seem stoic about all this all, but i can assure you my heart goes out to all the innocent people that have to suffer because of this. The muslims that want nothing more then to live peacefully together, the immigrants that came here to fit in, be accepted and start a new life. All those with a loving heart, and we are all capable of that nomatter what culture you're from. It's sad to see how this all unfolds...
I am old. I only declare this because i have seen the persistence and camellian nature of the hateful right for decades.
As individual power fights to the death, group power dito. The masses hate to share, no less the individual.
No other country has done it better than South Africa, make your citizens proud of your land, proud of your sports teams, and proud of cultral differences via education. Thus allowing everyone to see past racism and acknowledge were all human.
A world united in peace and justice,
Love and understanding guiding our way,
Liberty and freedom for all to embrace,
All people equal, none led astray.
Hatred has no place in our hearts,
Unity dispels the darkness and fear.
All voices matter, every life sacred,
Knowledge and empathy bring us near.
Bridges built on mutual respect,
A future bright and free from strife,
Resilience in the face of hate, we thrive.
Big up Karl Popper, great point Laura!
"It's coming down to nothing more than apathy".
Agree with the conclusion that this is the end-game of neoliberalism, and tbh it feels like it's almost won. How come we can't organise now, when the world has seen million+ person marches in the past, with no technology?
As inherently scary as any form of nationalism is to me, it might be that energy is required to smash the current political system - next election is going o be interesting.
Very good. Great pod.
As some other commenters have pointed out I think the idea of left-wing nationalism is questionable.
I’m totally against “left wing nationalism” or “patriotism” - its a long way off but ultimately the nation state should be abolished
Stand up to Racism is doing good work, could you link up with them? ❤
Crackin' episode. Well done, JOE.
So many people can't get a GP appointment, timely medical care, housing, are suffering from the cost of living crisis etc and yet there's about 700k net people coming into the country each year, which can only exacerbate things. Thank you 33:00 for highlighting that it is indeed the poor communities who are suffering from this and I think those privileged tend to look past these mitigating circumstances and instead look at the horrendous (but perhaps inevitable?) events we are seeing unfolding before us and believe that anyone attending or associating with this protestation must simply be violent, idiotic racists (which obviously some are). There's no excuse for attacking innocent people or their properties, but I can't help but feel that the mainstream media just doesn't want to touch the various social economic factors and instead focus on the consequences, the "the far-right" and misinformation on social media.
Absolutely right!
To be intolerant of intolerant people is a great position, this should be the British way, yet many British media and those in a position of status are tolerant of those who hold religious beliefs that are intolerant of other’s beliefs.
The Twittering Class Twittering....
It was the working class that fought Fascism in the 1930's, not middle class chaps.
this whole comment section is full of brilliant points
Musk had been saying fully autonomous driving is six months away for the last 7 years (until recently) and that is when he's talking about something he is deeply involved in, so I think we can dismiss his insights into the political volatility of this country...
And his rockets work perfectly
He's just a misanthrope with too much money. Fuck him.
Starmer needs to put forward the narrative that this is the predictable consequence of 1) austerity 2) failure to process asylum claims through the proper legal routes 3) populist dog-whistle rhetoric and 4) that all of these have been actioned by his political opponents. He then needs to get busy reversing them.
He and his chancellor have already stated and shown that they are continuing austerity. I think they may take the rest of your points though.
@@ShakirahIbaad well yes- except not *completely*. They seem to believe in fair public sector pay.
The far right riots have let the right down terribly. I'm a centerist (slightly center right these days) and the protest from the right contained some genuine and sensible concerns, all of which is being ignored because a couple of hundred have rioted out of the many thousands that are protesting. To classify everyone protesting as far right racists is just as extreme as calling everyone protesting in the pro Palestine events as far right racists (because a smaller portion of them were pro hamas and pro n@zi), despite many within the pro palestine protests not being pro hamas and having some fair points to be heard, regardless of elements of naivety.
what are those genuine concerns? unless some people were genuinely just ignorant of what was going on at what they were attending i feel like the purpose of these protests and riots are quite blatant and pretty racist in whats being spread the vilent action probably doesnt help but to me atleast even if they arent participating in the violence by being near enough to enable it and marching with them is kinda showing a complicity to the views of those spewing the and acting in the riot? We are allowed to be angry at the fact that a bunch of mugs have set fire to buildings, injured police, chose targets and spoke in a way that is threatening to muslims and immigrants, from some of the things ive seen the active targetting of muslims, obbing bricks around. The sentiment is that the purpose of the riot is islamaphobic. Thats why they are being included in that atleast for me, i accept there are those that probably hold no affiliations that want in on action and those just observing but to be honest if you they wanted to not be included in a riot sparked by racist rhetoric maybe they should have separated themselves more and chose more appropriate times and places to do it but they didnt they followed the mob so why would i believe they didnt. The palestine events and a riot are also very different
@@baileybruce145 Its not racist to voice concerns/demands that immigration is more carefully managed. Immigration is ultimately a good thing, but with it, there is fair argument to ask for manageable numbers or infrastructure plans to make the numbers manageable. Equally, there is fair argument for greater procedures in place to improve the integration of immigrants in to British society. For example, if you travelled to say Japan or Spain wanting to experience the Japanese or Spanish culture, you would be very disappointed if when you arrived in a particular town, it was 70% British people, with British shops and British cuisine. It's not racist to say those British should be better integrated into the Japanese or Spanish culture.
@@PhageTheFinalCure sure but i feel like theres probably more pressing matters, that sure immigration might contribute to but arguably are probably not the first thing that needs to happen to fix our economy or the services, as a result it does feel like its more of a scape goat than anything else and to me i feel like its something that been used by a lot of tories and told constantly to us, i.e brexit was not about the economic possibilities of leaving the single market it was getting immigrants out of the country, in terms of how its marketed, i can see that people might genuinely have concerns but from discussions ive had its not from nuanced takes about the systm and how to improve its just that we cant taken them or that theyre criminals and so on, its hard not to feel like the immigration argument in england doesnt have racist undertones when most of the rhetoric related to it generally others and demonises them, grooming gangs, stop the boats, criminality in general, whatever brexit campaign was. And honestly if people want to have a discussion about it with genuine arguments not whatever is pedalled by gbnew, then i guess they can but not now to me if you feel like arguing it now in the wake of the riots it feels like a cover for them, give it a few months maybe, also as it seems like the common thing to have done probably best not to start a proper argument with an whataboutism which is not really anywhere near the level of a riot to start the argument
@@baileybruce145 I appreciate your comment, it's rare to have proper discourse in a comment section. I guess what it comes down to is how much of it you think is disguised racism and how much of it is legitimate concerns that people want heard and addressed/discussed. The extent of where a person lands on that viewpoint can be heavily swayed by which media sources you watch, the BBC or channel4 would almost never interview attendees to these protests and look for reasoned replies, they appear to only follow and show the sub section of violent people, and if they were to interview a protester (which I've yet to see them do, as they seems utterly uninterested in an opposing opinion), they would be sure to only show the village idiot/racist that makes the 'everyone there's a racist' point that they want to make. Equally if you were to follow right wing media, you would see limited rioting (because they don't want to show that), any shown would be frowned upon and plenty of civil protesting performed by thousands, with members proving reasoned answers as to why they are there. Unfortunately neither side is willing to watch the opposing sides media sources because it's too distasteful to them and they cannot hear any legitimate information from opposing media because over the video their brain is screaming racist bigots or woke p3d0 (depending on their political leaning).
Ultimately, making no attempt to hear what the right wingers are saying will only result in a worsening of the situation, as it seems to me that its got this bad because they've felt ignored on this topic for decades. It's needs to be discussed with facts and statistics, and everyone needs to remove their emotional blindfold (left wing and right wing).
As for 'whataboutism', it's important to address labelling, it's easier to help someone understand wrong doing on their part when they can see how they feel about the equivalent role reversal.
There were swastikas and calls for genuine genocide within some sub groups of the pro Palestine protests, it would be wrong to label/tar everyone protesting as the same as that racist hateful sub group. This is why it is wrong to label the current protests as far right fascist extremism, when only sub group within it are and only a sub group within it are carrying out violence.
Punching and battering Muslim people walking down the street is not "genuine and sensible concerns". Ganging up on and battering random Black people is not "legitimate protest". Stopping people in the street and dragging them out of their cars is not "centrist". Stopping people in cars and allowing others to pass based on the colour of their skin is not "naivete". Ollie said MULTIPLE times that he was not classifying everyone with concerns about immigration as Far Right, but if you're at a protest and people are trying to burn down mosques and hotels, making slit throat gestures at families and individuals, you're not neutral. If the perpetrators were Black and a stabbing occurs, the law prosecutes people ALL present even if they took no part in the crime and even if they disagreed with "legitimate concerns" about its committal - it's called 'Joint Enterprise' and it was the Right that brought that in. I'm sure you'd be all over that. You don't get to "Bothsides" this one.
Old Labour was left wing nationalism
Laura somehow the only person I've seen do the front highlights and they look good instead of shite
A complete waste of time thought experiment that I like is, if Starmer had been the Labour leader in 2017, would they have performed any better or worse in the 2017 and/or 2019 elections? If not, would Corbyn being leader in 2020 had meant Labour did any better or worse in the 2024 election?
People had the time during Covid to help their communities because a lot of people weren't working. It's one of the reasons the protests against George Floyd's killing were so well attended World wide.
The problem with land-based liberal nationalism is that it comes very close to far right wing nationalism in the sense that they would say they also feel a strong connection to the land, and that's why they want to keep people from other countries coming in and "taking it from us."
31:16 very well summarised and not talked about enough