I've long been a huge fan of this approach - everyone wins (except maybe traffic light and other such road furniture manufacturers). I hope it spreads like wildfire throughout the world.
Ed, right, but we have a battle on our hands. Most public money is in the hands of people whose vested interest is the maintenance of the current system of control. The forces of reaction are powerful
If Doris Day, likes it, I like it. Here in downtown Buenos Aires, some streets are being converted into shared space. Curbs have disappeared and zones are marked by different colored pavement. There are some additional elements, like small columns to avoid parking, since motorists here are notoriously unconcerned by regulations. But I lived downtown for 20 years and I can't recognize those streets now. They seem drab and dark even when empty, on weekends, now they look wide and sunlit. And quiet. People and cars mingle and nobody honks, though a street down it is bedlam. It really, really, works.
I use this junction maybe five times a year as a car driver. When the traffic flow has been light it's very pleasant. At rush hour I felt the queues were worse for cars(ok, maybe that's not a bad thing!) I think mainly because some drivers , like the car coming from the left at 8:22 , are overly cautious and the flow isn't as efficient as it could be. I've used it once as a pedestrian. It felt a bit odd but traffic , which was already moving at a very modest pace, adjusted their speed to give way. They didn't actually have to stop. I think that keeps a momentum up. Some motorists must get frustrated and accelerate hard off the roundabout but it felt like a minority ,,, and overall it is a much more relaxed atmosphere than when there were traffic lights.
I wonder how much time it adds to a commute. Once the road opens up again to two or three lanes, don't you just speed along until the next congestion? Unless of course it is the only spot you ever slow down.
@@carlporter My thoughts exactly. But I once arrived at the junction from one of the lesser roads at rush hour. The queue was about 300m and took about ten minutes. I'd avoid it in the future if I remember! If there was an accepted 'zipper' \ merge in turn they'd work better. In the rush hour the stream was so continuous in one direction of the major road that there was rarely a gap for traffic on the lesser road.
@@richH1625 Zipper merge defined here: th-cam.com/video/cX0I8OdK7Tk/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=AlbertaMotorAssociation That would be teaching people road etiquette. I can see how that would help to keep all cars in motion, albeit very slowly. To calculate the time difference, you'd have to know how long the traffic lights used to hold the traffic, and then can you get through on the second or third cycle? Very interesting, thanks.
I work for Free Wheel North, the Glasgow based special needs cycling and access charity. We work with thousands of people with additional mobility needs. Poynton village is an exemplar of how things should be, combining human access rights with a vast increase in quality of life and safety. We are advocating similar changes to the town of Kirkintilloch near Glasgow. Once people see it action they usually can see how shared space works. This is a return to public space for people, the foundation of civilisation as it evolved over thousands of years. Contemporary examples regenerate community rich in shops, cafes, post offices pubs; the fabric of village, town or city life. This was how it was before cars destroyed all our urban spaces. We visited Poynton and sent a small boy across the main junction without hesitation. No problem. See youtube clip Poynton Village shared space Free Wheel North.
+norman armstrong Please explain why, in Poynton, most cyclists avoid the road and use the pavement. That usually means they are frightened of using the road.
+norman armstrong Please explain why, in Ashford, 91% of women were afraid of the shared space, and the more people used the shared space, the more they wanted it changed. Don't trust me, don't trust people that make money out of installing shared space schemes, do trust disinterested observations of what happens in the real world. See, for example, eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ "The authors conclude that some of the claims made on behalf of shared space have overstated the available evidence", which is fighting talk in that context!
+Tom Gardner. Cyclists don't avoid the roads in Poynton, as indeed the video I made at Poynton proves. Tiny cyclists use the pavement, as they do everywhere, which is good. Regarding the vested interest argument, one should look to the multi-trillion pound business of selling speed, cars, traffic lights, oil and traffic engineering. My organisation provides more activity for the disabled than any other in Scotland and we are a voice for shared space and its link to human rights. Shared space is the birthright of all human beings and existed for at least 10,000 years, until the motor business systematically removed it during the last 100 years. The fear of shared space is interesting. It's a function of institutionalisation. Freedom is terrifying if you are not used to it. People come out of prison unable to cope with decision making due to never exercising any autonomy. Everyday tasks cause great anxiety. In street life we have become inured to machine control, herded like cattle and diverted away from desire lines. Navigational ability atrophies and replaced with terror. Once 'they' have us in the grip of fear in its easy to remove our human right to move freely and our will to move is ceded to the traffic light, kerb, railing and barrier. Shared Space reinstates the right to freedom of movement and individual autonomy: you have the ability and right to cross anywhere and anywhen. Fear of freedom is the psychological barrier to shared space. But that fear has no basis in reality, for it removes the greatest threat to safety in modern life: speeding traffic.
+norman armstrong Please read what I *actually* wrote. Whenever I have been to Poynton the *majority* of the cyclists have *illegally* been on the *pavement* with pedestrians. Most of the cyclists on the road were lycra-clad "dedicated" cyclists. Those on the pavement were exclusively "normal" people in everyday clothes.
+norman armstrong Your philosophical claptrap about institutionalisation (etc) is demonstrably false. (1) the more people used Ashford, the more they wanted changes. In other words, familiarity breeds fear of shared spaces. (2) desire lines were *not* followed; people huddled against the edges out of fear! (3) The majority of people, and 91% of women, felt anxious there. Take the trouble to read the UWE report eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ and you will see how "unusual" your viewpoint is.
I started watching with the attitude of "this is an accident waiting to happen", but I'm very impressed by it. It is true...a green light at a junction is almost a sign to say "It's your turn - get through as fast as you can, nothing is going to happen", yet when the lights are down everyone creeps through, checking all around them and being extra spacially aware. I cycle through Chorlton and Salford most days and constantly feel like I'm on borrowed time. We need more of these.
The lesson for me is that when you remove restrictions from humans they become nicer to each other and accept responsibility. In a world heading towards ever more digital control and questionable rules this is a great example to how we CAN all co-exist. I use the junction regularly and love it as a pedestrian, a driver and as a cyclist. Freedom wins! Every time I drive in Poynton I naturally make eye contact with pedestrians. I enjoy giving way and the appreciation that comes back in return is amazing - surely a lesson to town planners who just want to demonize car drivers. Pedestrians and drivers really smile at each other which makes it a happier village. Well done. (PS yes I admit - I was slightly cynical during the roadworks!). The major challenge will be to maintain the safe flat cobbled / brick surfaces.
Thanks Steve. I've been banging on about this for over two decades, to TV and radio commissioning editors, newspaper editors (occasionally they commmission an article), councillors, traffic managers, roads ministers. Most of the time it's like banging my head against a brick wall. At my website/blog, Equality Streets, is a contact email if you'd like to be in touch.
I noticed an interesting phenomenon here in Australia. When two lanes merge and there is a line demarcating the lane that is ending the drivers in the continuing lane will simply refuse to courteously give way to the leading car in the ending lane. Take away that line and you observe a lot more sensible behaviour.
Thanks Martin. I have nothing but praise for the film and the whole project. Thats why I put the inverted commas around 'marketing' - it's probably not the word I was looking for. I think the film is brilliant in presenting the problem/solution in a very effective way (the opening sequence traffic noise, whilst emotive, is so indicative of much of our daily lives). I'm a cyclist, a pedestrian, a motorist and a regular train user and now inspired once again by a little section of our populace.
In answer to the question: No, the available space on that part of the pavement is not "shared" but clearly set aside for car parking. I was just suggesting that as this is not shared the carefully separated footways and roads would have been perfectly complemented by separated cycle lanes. Sorry for the delay replying, I don't want a bunfight over the merits of the scheme, which works well on the quieter shopping section in Park Lane and works well for motorised traffic flow and pedestrians.
Client was jointly Cheshire East Council and Poynton Town Council. Hamilton-Baillie Associates were lead designers. Plan-It Landscapes (Lindsay Humblet and Johannes Dobrat) did the detailed design. Stockley Associates (Stephen O'Malley) supported Cheshire East as project engineers. Phil McNeal was project manager. Contractors were English Landscapes (Phase 1) and Casey (Phase 2).
Brilliant. The scheme we have waited for in the UK and that should be the tipping point for UK Shared Space street design. Other schemes have had the distraction of minor flaws. Poynton benefits from the perfect storm: having and wanting to do something, appointing a great designer with clear vision, a supportive highway authority and especially a politician with the drive to push it through. Lucky to have all four.Great detailing. Inclusion of non-priority 'roundels was a work of genius! Bravo!
Equity is central to sustainability on so many levels. This is a great example of the built environment giving form and balancing the need for public space and human mobility for all populations.
Very well done Poynton! Public space is for people and their chosen method of using it should not confer advantage nor disadvantage. Stage one in creating a better world.
Makes sense, I used to commute into Liverpool city center, one my easiest journeys was when there was a blanket failure of the traffic lights, the tailbacks that usually stretched from the tunnel entrance right round the city where gone, people just found there way through.
Wonderful. Proves people aren't the problem, control (law) was the problem. When law removed, people automatically become grace us, and the benefit is no accidents at all. Grace, Mercy, Peace to all.
I really like the thinking here! In Sweden we also have examples similar to this. A concept I really like are streets that are built really for pedestrian and cyclists, but where cars are allowed. So when you drive on such a street, you feel like you always have to watch out and know where pedestrians/cyclists are, which creates alot more safety.
I've seen the whole of central London with lights out of action - never was it less congested or more pleasant to move around. So what works on a micro scale works on a macro (not that Poynton is micro - it carries a lot of traffic). Give humans a decent framework, and their decent instincts will thrive. By contrast, give them a mean-spirited setting, and their mean spirits will flourish
Anyone who's been through Poynton on a Sunday around church chucking-out time will realise that while this works well for moderate volumes of rolling traffic, it is an absolute nightmare when there are large volumes of pedestrians (particularly as a cyclist - pedestrians aren't looking for you, they're looking at cars/generally dozing). I think this system could be used in small villages/suburbs elsewhere but isnt going to work in inner city areas where the traffic problems are much worse and there are people walking everywhere all the time. Its good that they've tried something different and improved the situation over how it was before, but getting large volumes of people out of their cars has to be the priority nationally.
That's also the case elsewhere. A good study of what users actually fell and what actually happens (as opposed to theory) is at eprints.uwe.ac.uk/16039/ It uses some very strong "academic language" when describing the evidence for shared spaces.
in reply to hee163 "absolute nightmare" - an exaggeration? When you leave a rock concert or race meeting, you see the reason for slow progress: loads of other people leaving at the same time. You're in the same boat, so it's acceptable. Why should people on foot look out for people on wheels? The point is restore the balance of power in favour of the vulnerable road-user. Given roads that are fit for people, above all fit for children, you would see car use decline, but in response to life-enhancing culture change, not mind-numbing regulation.
Martin Cassini The whole premise of shared space is that it is that everyone has responsibility for their own safety and those around them in order to maintain smooth and safe flow of traffic (inc. pedestrians), and has EQUAL priority. In order for it to work everybody should keep moving where safe to, and should be keeping their eyes open for all other traffic... vehicles, bikes and pedestrians.
Inspiring. The film has answers not just in relation to how we can radically improve traffic & improve safety, but profound implications in re-learning how to relate & communicate. If we can get people to understand what 'shared space' really means, then the implications are wider than traffic concerns alone; in cities where we all share space, each individual's part can be realised, with the awareness of the true meaning of shared space leading to huge benefits in terms of noise, litter, crime
paulincumbria - you mean Howard Murray. He is that rare beast: a councillor with the guts to stand up to traffic officer jobsworths who do not know what's best, indeed they practise what's worst
Another reversal in the face of reality: "A pedestrian crossing is being *reintroduced* in Grimsby's Bethlehem Street. The original crossing was removed as part of the multi-million pound regeneration of the town centre in 2013, when the controversial shared space was introduced at the junction of Station Approach." www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/Pedestrian-crossing-installed-Grimsby-s-Bethlehem/story-27448405-detail/story.html
I can't really comment about Poynton as a place to live, but I enjoyed being there and met some delightful people. I did find the lack of B+Bs in town disappointing - the closest one I found was in Hazel Grove. Commiserations though about the high cost of rail travel.
How much would it have cost to restructure the junction as two roundabouts, if the work had been done using standard road building materials. Did anyone calculate that, before this block-paving approach was taken?
In reply to DreamTheory: you could be forgiven for thinking the current rules of the road license killing. The point of Poynton is to shift the balance of power in favour of the vulnerable, allowing motorists to rediscover their humanity. Would you jump a cash point queue? No. Well, on the road too, use your manners to give way to others who were there first. Simples
A lovely example of how *low density* traffic navigates intersections with neither traffic lights nor markings. I've watched cars attempting to do this kind of thing at the Poynton rotary-not-roundabout, but it can't really happen in Poynton because the traffic density is higher and the junction smaller. I wonder if removing all the markings on Swindon's "magic roundabout" would have the same effect? Negotiating a Crazy Intersection at Ethiopia
For me, the continued flow of traffic through the town and the wider spaces for pedestrians is a secondary benefit compared to the base improvement in social interaction and friendliness evident in the film. I realise we are, in effect, watching a 'marketing' clip, edited for the purpose of promoting the ideology, but the positivity of even the naysayers is just heart-warming. Three cheers for all involved!
Ben, driving through on the way home from Scotland this evening I saw the following: - transition from Chester Rd to paved area has been starting to sink for the last few months - 1st pedestrian crossing (lh side) kerb stones sunken/chipped and crossing pavement stones moved - parking area outside RBS cash machine - stones badly broken around drainage - park ln - kerbstone was sunken and broken.. now reset and still broken - bigger roundabout kerbstones sunken Not "terrible" but in 15 months???
Hello Martin I work for Active Cheshire. We are the Lead Body for Physical Activity and Sport in Cheshire and Warrington. We really love your example of what has happened in Poynton and would like to feature it as an great exemplar of Active Design working in a busy transport environment. Could this be okay to use and share your video please? Aiden Wilkinson - Active Cheshire.
I'm sure this kind of logic could be used to fix some of the traffic problems in Australia, but it would take some massive convincing of the various government organisations in control and the lobby groups who would fight tooth and nail against such progressive thinking. I only dream that this kind of intelligence can be applied to traffic management in parts of Sydney.
Really glad to see a positive comment from a blind person - in York there is strong resistence to the idea on basis of it being 'dangerous' for the elderly and disabled and that it gives a green light to cycling on pavements etc because of the lack of kerbs.
I come from Manchester so know Poynton and it's good to see the local council took the steps to improve the roads. I now live in Thailand where often they just switch off the lights even at major junctions and even though the standard of driving here is absolutely awful it does seem to work. I also found the experiment in Swindon to be interesting with the scrapping of speed cameras which drastically reduced accidents.
Lots of interesting comments (and understandable concerns) on this novel 'experiment' which was extensively researched and observed working in other countries before it was proposed. As a user of this junction for 7 years: before, during and after construction, on a daily commute basis, I feel I can offer valuable insight into the perceptions, habits and subtle changes which occurred in all users of that particular section of road. Bottom line: we are all adaptable humans. We adapted to traffic, road signs, junctions where previously none had barely existed. By the same measure we can, and have adapted to the concept of learned behavior when all users enter the shared spaced area of Poynton village centre. Of course it was scary at first. I was not only a car driver, but a pedestrian shopper in my lunch hours too. The major behaviour felt and noticed, was EYE CONTACT. We look left and right, still, before crossing, and we look at each other as drivers and pedestrians as our journeys transect. A period of adaptation happened by osmosis, and I can tell you now.. as a driver, you take the notion of 'consideration for fellow human' into your everyday driving behaviour. Finally... and this is important to note: the road from Stockport to Poynton to the motorway and airport is one of the most heavily used in the north of England. As part of the infrastructure regeneration for the north, currently the SEMMS motorway intersection is being build both sides of the wider area of Poynton ( namely High Lane, Hazel Grove, and Woodford ) which will prevent, I reckon, about 70% of current traffic volumes from needing to enter into Poynton village. Once it's complete, there will be a marked difference in quality of life for villagers and people driving through who isn't heading for the airport etc. Take a look at this: www.semmms.info/
No signage outside necessary. The detailing of the approaches and highway-to-village transition points at the entrances is enough to change to mindset of drivers. Drivers are very sensitive to subtle cues from their surroundings.
It's terrible! We were trying to get through Poynton today and at about 10:30 AM the tailback was about half a mile. The approach to the junction is reduced to one lane so no wonder. What a mess, no doubt the result of the Anti-car lobby.
Andy Howlett Before, when there were traffic lights and multi-lane approaches, traffic routinely backed up to Hazel Grove to the north, which I think is more than a mile (?). One thing I disagreed with at the time of the redesign was that buses weren't given lay-bys to pull into when dropping off or taking on passengers. Hence they caused tailbacks. Do you know if this is still the case?
Martin. Soon after the change, there was a bus stop which was clearly in a stupid place and whenever a bus stopped there it would bring the junction to a halt. I think that one has been moved or altered.
Andy Howlett Thanks. The scheme designer didn't expect congestion to disappear as a result of the changes, but thought at least it shouldn't be any worse than before, and expected it to be better outside peak times. In your view and your experience, is congestion worse than before, or about the same? What do you think of other results of the scheme, eg are speeds lower, road-user relationships any better, the feel and look of the place improved?
It's difficult to come to a firm conclusion as we use this road infrequently, but I don't recall a half-mile tailback at this point at an off-peak time on a weekday morning. It may have been even worse if the roadworks ( a short distance before this point) had not been 'throttling' the approaching traffic. As for generally, I suppose it's a brave attempt, but I'm not sure it's a good location to try this 'shared space' idea, as it is just too busy and some kind of by-pass is urgently required.
Andy Howlett I understand a bypass is in the pipeline. Sorry you experienced such dire congestion but presumably it would be no better with traffic lights, and everything else would be so much worse
My 5 year old probably won't be happy sharing the road with any number of vehicles, though. Like I said, though, given the circumstances, this is light years ahead of where it was, for which everyone involved deserves congratulations.
18.9.13 Inspector Stephen Griffiths states, "Since April 2012 Police have received reports of three incidents around Fountain Place. Two were low speed minor comings together of two vehicles resulting in no injuries; the third a disagreement between a driver and pedestrian with a minor foot injury recorded [it appears unrelated to the layout and may have happened on private land]. There have been no fatalities." Covering 18months, these accident rates compare well with rates before the redesign.
This is brilliant! Should it really be so astounding that given a well designed space and the removal of arbitrary controls, people revert to their natural ways, and start being cautious and courteous with one another? Well done to all the people involved with this!
Great to see! Especially the contrast between the part with traffic lights and the part without ^^ It "feels" more open and friendly. As a driver, I guess I would be terrified the first time I had to take part in this but one can get used to everything. As a pedestrian I love how this looks and gives you a.. well.. nicer feeling. In addition, you save all the electricity for the traffic lights *g*
Great to see interesting concepts and ideas come to shine in such a phenomenal way. However I do have a question about water runoff. England can can get quite snowy and wet and from what I gathered- you don't have any pavements - does that mean you don't have any gutters to relocate and move the water off the roads?
Also an important point to be made here: legal reform is more likely to follow the de-facto results of rebuilding our urban environments to be more humane, as here, than it is to preceed the same. For instance, if enough towns were redesigned this way, it's possible to see the government found new powers and/or issue new legal guidance because otherwise they will be getting a lot of bad press. The converse is not true.
Thanks for the reply. And perhaps the character restriction made me overstate the "anti-car" sentiment. I hold a license and own a car, although I'd say cycling is my primary mode of transport where I live in Manchester, so I don't want to ban cars completely. But I would route main roads around village centres rather than through them. The Dutch have a principle of establishing the purpose of a road, and here there were previously two purposes - village centre and through route.
Peter, I'm not a lawyer, but absent case law, nobody can say "that's how it is". We may as well say that the driver would end up paying more compo because in an environment like this, they know they must be doubly vigilant for more vulnerable road users - a higher duty of care than otherwise. There is nothing in the Highway Code re: turning across oncoming traffic that says "only if separated by a painted line" - after all, smaller roads are often unmarked, such as the one I live on. Agreed?
I took the National Highway Institute (US) two day course on Applying Flexibility in Highway Design this week. They used this video as a case study. I understand they are in the process of building the relief road. It would be interesting to revisit after the bypass opens.
Lengthy observations to date from independent monitors do not report "chaos" during peak hours, and the volume and flow of traffic continues to be significantly improved on the former traffic lights. No accidents have yet been reported in the Police Stats 19 files - can you give details? Can you also provide details on areas that are "crumbling" - it seemed to be holding up well when inspected last week. Parking on the pavement is certailnly not a "new" occurence, but there seems to be less.
As they say on Wikipedia, [citation needed]. In my opinion, cyclists on this layout are more likely to receive increased compensation due to the clear onus being placed on motorists to slow down and take extra care. Furthermore, not only are such collisions (IMO) less likely, they are also clearly going to be far, far less injurious.
(Part 2) As for people failing to nose out of Park Lane, the problem is, there is a culture of priority on the roads which, it appears, even equality-based design on its own can't overcome. The idea is not to defer to traffic from the right, but to take your turn more or less in the sequence in which you arrive: filter in turn. For over a decade I've been trying to change the culture from priority to equality. The campaign for traffic system reform continues (see Equality Streets)
I love the idea of "Shared Space" - everyone is so annoyed with all the signals/lights in Sandpoint, ID. I think this would be a great idea for our community!
Just turn the signals off, and enliven the streetscape with nice things and interesting people! It's easy. Want to borrow an angle-grinder? Always fancied visiting Sandpoint, ID!
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Are you thinking of things like the pedestrian at 3:50 in this vimeo.com/118137432 video? Any comments on the points the blind people make in the other parts of the video, especially from 2:40 onwards? Or are they to be ignored and dismissed?
Amanda. Through traffic drivers have certainly benefited, based on the initial findings on journey times and delays. These have dropped significantly since the scheme was completed. Lots of data on pre- and post-completion, and most suggests that the junction works significantly better than the traffic -signal controlled former arrangement. But the purpose of the scheme was NOT traffic flows. It was about economic regeneration of Poynton. And this has clearly worked.
It was published in our newsletter Martin. If you let me have an email address I will happily email it to you. And yes the feedback we had was that it was safer for blind people before the scheme, particularly on Park Lane. When there was a regulated crossing people who couldn't see the traffic could be sure that vehicles had stopped for the red light and could cross in safety.
Thanks! I think, parking is the greatest issue in downtown regenerations here in Hungary, even in the smaller towns. In the bigger ones it's hard even to imagine such great pedestrian areas not to be parked in, unless defended by pollers (or strict fines). But it is slowly getting better.
Well, thats quite an emotional watch. Whatever your views on shared space (or anything traffic related) how inspiring to see the brains, talent and drive we have in this country in abundance finally being given an opportunity to express itself. Creativity, foresight, fresh ways of thinking needn't cost the earth and just look at the positive effects.
Martin, I'm not in the habit of collecting accident statistics on my way to work.. sorry to disappoint you. All I can say is that the queues are exactly the same as they were before the work was undertaken. It is undeniable that the village "looks" a little better than before and I'm obviously grateful for the small added value to my house but these are not signs of a successful traffic management scheme.
Thanks for your efforts! Let's hope we can convince more councils to consider this approach. Is there any data out there indicating how much this approach costs compared to the conventional one?
No, this is the best that can be done with the narrow Park Lane road, but there's no pretending the provision along London Road or Chester Road wouldn't have been better for cyclists-particularly children- if the segregated narrow vehicle lanes had been accompanied by protected cycle lanes. Cycling that section when it's quiet in the evening and you're the only obstacle to an aggressive motorist is not "congenial". I'm a huge fan of the scheme, this is just honest experience.
I suggest also a good Indicator (turn signal) -Rule. Same like in Germany ;) - Do not use the indicator if you drive *into* the Street-Circle (Nobody want to know that you want to drive into the Circle xD) - Use the indicator only if you want to *leave* the Street-Circle. (So that the waiting drivers know, when they can drive into the circle) That shortens the waiting time. If anyone uses the indicator if he is drive into the Circle, then the other drivers do not know: "does he want to get out at the next exit or has he forgotten to turn off his turn signal?" ( This error would slow the traffic situation again. )
I'd also note it's not shared space as normally understood-vehicle lanes are very clearly marked with surface and rumble strips, this is lane narrowing. Overall its brilliant, but if there were space you'd want cycle lanes.
This is a model that could work almost anywhere. It clearly works for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians, which I approve of as I use all three modes on a regular basis.
If it's me you're calling an idiot, where do I claim 'this is what happens in the Netherlands'? I have sometimes wondered why Hans Monderman's innovative work in Drachten and elsewhere wasn't adopted more widely. Could it be because old habits die hard and real idiots die harder? I've always thought that equality expressed in public realm design would solve most of our man-made road safety and congestion problems (especially if backed by re-education and legal reform). Poynton is living proof.
It's amazing how well that particular junction is working. I am surprised that it only cost £4m. I tricycle as my only means of transport and never go through large junctions on the road but will always use the pavement. However, the junction in the video I am sure I would feel completely at ease cycling around. Having it with only enough space for single traffic around both roundels makes it safe for any form of transport to join in with, unlike our British roundabouts.
Comparative traffic counts are awaited, but my guess is there's no difference. If the Cabstand junction in Portishead is anything to go by (lights scrapped in 2009), congestion and quality of life will see permanent improvements even with an increase in traffic
It is too early to say that this is "a safe civilised decongested public realm". As drivers become habituated to this kind of scheme, their behaviour will change. The jury is still out, and Poynton should not be used as a justification for introducing such schemes elsewhere -- particularly if they are not quiet suburban areas like Poynton
It turns out I did have a hand in Poynton's Progress (my alternative title for Poynton Regenerated): representatives of Poynton went to Portishead to see the lights-off trial in action, and it was largely thanks to my lobbying and video, The case for a no-lights trial, that the Portishead trial took place
Amanda, thanks for your comment, depressing though it is. I was there with recording equipment on at least four separate days. I did not choose busy and slack times. I always wanted busy times. But the weather was against us on numerous proposed shooting dates. On the "after" filming day, I tried to interview drivers, but guess what - the traffic was always moving gently, even during evening rush-hour, so no-one could stop to talk, because they would have caused a jam. Out of space ...
Peter, is this attack based on legal opinion or conjecture? It's established case law that motorists have a higher duty of care towards vulnerable road users, especially in an area like this where there is no expectation on vulnerable road users to "keep clear". I find it unbelievably unlikely that cyclists and pedestrians would be in a worse position vis-a-vis compensation than if struck on an ordinary road layout (but that, FWIW, is just my conjecture).
Hi Martin! I'm from Brigham Young University-Hawaii's University Communications department. May we have your permission to use your video for a public university lecture?
Fonant, in another comment which I saw somewhere, you said you wouldn't cycle with your family through the junction. Are you saying you prefer the old system of traffic lights? Are you aware than 44% of personal injury "accidents" occur at traffic lights? Maybe this is a case of 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.
this was fascinating I have driven a roundabout just twice in my life and it was unsettling. I hesitate too much to take my turn. Is that a problem in poynton?
I have observed drivers taking *very* strange trajectories around and across the roundels-not-roundabouts in Poynton. Most drivers (quite reasonably) assume they are roundabouts, some know that (for unclear reasons) they aren't actually roundabouts - and go whereever thaes their fancy! You have to assume that blind people might be walking across/in/along the road, since neither they nor their guide dogs can tell where the road is and isn't. About 5% of drivers "mount the kerb" around the edges of the "roundabouts", without noticing it.
I've been to Chennai, Hyderabad, Delhi and Bangalore, and you are right... Indian city traffic has absolutely NO rules, yet... people manage to cross the street (at their peril). What are the pedestrian fatality numbers in Indian cities? Are the railways more dangerous?
Where did most of the HGVs go? Unless you've got traffic count data that says otherwise, there appear in the "after" shots to be far less, especially artics. Not that less HGVs in a town centre is a bad idea, but those lorry movements have surely just moved elsewhere- if so where?
Well done Poynton! And I hope that in the long term, your scheme will prove to be as successful as it seems to have been so far. I think that councils down south have a lot to learn from you! Take note Hertfordshire County Council!
It's a widely accepted fact that shared space schemes are in general a pretty good idea. I am personally in favour of them... but!.. this one was way behind schedule, is already crumbling due to poor construction and hasn't fixed the traffic problems that it was supposed to solve. In addition to the double roundabout system leaves any drivers who don't live in the area confused and liable to making basic errors when navigating this junction....
Thought I'd already replied to this. Of course children are in mortal danger on stndard roads subject to the lethal priority rule. This civilised space is a cradle of safety. All roads, certainly all urban roads should be like this.
The issue is with injury compensation, based on need. May be lifelong care. This scheme has ignored the fact that full compensation would be paid in Europe, but not in UK. Answer that.
Re: "Give humans a decent framework, and their decent instincts will thrive. By contrast, give them a mean-spirited setting, and their mean spirits will flourish." Why did the supermarkets all decide that they need to make you pay a pound, just to force us to take our trolley back. This seems pretty mean-spirited of them. I assume that they have discovered that the pound deposit system works better than trusting people - which is what they were doing for many years before this new system.
I sympathise with the point you make here, Peter, and I forgot to say I'm also a rider, although not much in recent years. Thing is, you can't blame this scheme for not introducing legal reform. How could it? It's doing its utmost to create a space which stimulates low speeds, sociable interaction and civility. Seems to me it is succeeding admirably in its aims.
Are there any pavements in the meaning of the Highway Code clause 145? If so, where do they begin/end? (Of course, shared spaces *require* that it is ambiguous, and frequently drivers do cross what I would think of as the pavement.)
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Thank you. Of course the kerbs are smaller and easier to cross than many of the ruts/potholes now found in many roads :( Also blind people that have been to Poynton cannot use the kerbs and find Poynton "horrendous" and "impossible". See the Walthew House Newsletter issues 8, 9, 10 for the full context.
Martin Cassini Please do post the URL containing the entire unedited conversation; it has been 5 months since the conversation which seems to have included Kay Kelly's comment "I'm sorry Martin, but your reply just underlines your lack of knowledge about visual impairment."
Gloucester shared space retreats after four years hard won experience: they are adding a pedestrian crossing to the shared space. Why? Since "The scheme has not proved successful. It presents a danger to those using it." "People don’t understand how shared spaces work so makes it dangerous." "...attempted to cross while blindfolded and was almost hit a number of times." I wonder how that will be "explained away". FFI: www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Gloucester-City-Council-criticises-shared-space/story-23005273-detail/story.html www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Zebra-crossing-coming-shared-space-Gloucester-s/story-25754578-detail/story.html
+WotNoEngine Looks like nobody has been able to explain it away. Perhaps they hope people about to have inappropriate shared space farcilities imposed on them won't notice what happens in the real world.
More from this mornings drive - both drains outside St George's church have also sunken and the stones are starting to break up... again, not life threatening but shouldn't be doing this after 15 months. From a maintenance point of view I'd imagine this is a few orders of magnitude more expensive than using tarmac.
Is it online? You can't be wanting a return to how it was? Far from ensuring safety, traffic lights are the locus of nearly half of all personal injury accidents in the UK's busiest borough: Westminster. I appreciate that in the absence of culture change to accompany the redesign, blind people would fear the new arrangement. If I was nearer, I'd say let's meet on site but I'm 250 miles away. Maybe something can be arranged. (I happened to be in Sheffield yesterday.)
In addition to streetscape redesign, people need to unlearn the bad habits instilled by the anti-social rules of the road. The rules should be rewritten too. Out with priority and in with equality. Three rules will do: drive on the left, go clockwise round roundabouts, and take it more or less in turns. Children are in mortal danger on priority roads where people are fighting for gaps and green time. By contrast, shared space, or Equality Streets (see website of same name), are cradles of safety
Surely, if you present a driver with a big circular area with adjoining roads then they simply interpret this as an odd looking roundabout, and treat it accordingly. Is that not what drivers are now doing. Do they drive around the circular areas in a clockwise direction? Do they give way to traffic approaching from the right?
Filter in turn is a great idea, until, in the case of the US traffic system's all-way stops, when it is open to interpretation as to who 'got there first'. Whilst it is yield to the right (I think) when vehicles arrive at the junction simultaneously, many a driver will try to wave the vehicle to the left on, creating further confusion. But this is a Midwestern town that I am dealing with, where roundabouts have only just been introduced and people are stopping on them to let people out.
A truly inspiring video: I met Ben when he was trying to get this sort of thing going in Bristol. It is wonderful to see intelligence and vision being applied - well done to all involved.
The shared space outside the Hippodrome (1) looks a mess because of tarmac scars across it (2) has caused too many people to walk in front of 7 ton busses, with the obvious detrimental effect to their health. No doubt Ben would claim it "isn't a true shared space" and "they did everything wrong".
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Rephrase: "can you tell us what was done right and wrong, please?". I'm interested *solely* in avoiding predictable mistakes elsewhere in the future, not in apportioning past blame. Hence "they" is the set of *anonymous* individuals and organisations that created the mess, and I'm interested in the results not in the process that lead to the results.
It would have been nice to have seen some actual traffic data showing that the throughput of traffic from different directions has not been made worse; are drivers, for example, now rat-running or finding other routes because they regard Poynton as a battleneck now? All the video contained was one person saying her commute had dropped to 10 minutes, which is anecdote, not data. Ditto how much did all this cost, and where did the budget come from?
![Suburbia is Subsidized: Here's the Math [ST07]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7Nw6qyyrTeI/mqdefault.jpg)
I've long been a huge fan of this approach - everyone wins (except maybe traffic light and other such road furniture manufacturers). I hope it spreads like wildfire throughout the world.
Ed, right, but we have a battle on our hands. Most public money is in the hands of people whose vested interest is the maintenance of the current system of control. The forces of reaction are powerful
If Doris Day, likes it, I like it.
Here in downtown Buenos Aires, some streets are being converted into shared space. Curbs have disappeared and zones are marked by different colored pavement. There are some additional elements, like small columns to avoid parking, since motorists here are notoriously unconcerned by regulations.
But I lived downtown for 20 years and I can't recognize those streets now. They seem drab and dark even when empty, on weekends, now they look wide and sunlit. And quiet. People and cars mingle and nobody honks, though a street down it is bedlam.
It really, really, works.
I use this junction maybe five times a year as a car driver.
When the traffic flow has been light it's very pleasant.
At rush hour I felt the queues were worse for cars(ok, maybe that's not a bad thing!) I think mainly because some drivers , like the car coming from the left at 8:22 , are overly cautious and the flow isn't as efficient as it could be.
I've used it once as a pedestrian. It felt a bit odd but traffic , which was already moving at a very modest pace, adjusted their speed to give way. They didn't actually have to stop. I think that keeps a momentum up.
Some motorists must get frustrated and accelerate hard off the roundabout but it felt like a minority ,,, and overall it is a much more relaxed atmosphere than when there were traffic lights.
I wonder how much time it adds to a commute. Once the road opens up again to two or three lanes, don't you just speed along until the next congestion? Unless of course it is the only spot you ever slow down.
@@carlporter
My thoughts exactly.
But I once arrived at the junction from one of the lesser roads at rush hour.
The queue was about 300m and took about ten minutes. I'd avoid it in the future if I remember!
If there was an accepted 'zipper' \ merge in turn they'd work better.
In the rush hour the stream was so continuous in one direction of the major road that there was rarely a gap for traffic on the lesser road.
@@richH1625 Zipper merge defined here: th-cam.com/video/cX0I8OdK7Tk/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=AlbertaMotorAssociation That would be teaching people road etiquette. I can see how that would help to keep all cars in motion, albeit very slowly. To calculate the time difference, you'd have to know how long the traffic lights used to hold the traffic, and then can you get through on the second or third cycle? Very interesting, thanks.
I work for Free Wheel North, the Glasgow based special needs cycling and access charity. We work with thousands of people with additional mobility needs. Poynton village is an exemplar of how things should be, combining human access rights with a vast increase in quality of life and safety. We are advocating similar changes to the town of Kirkintilloch near Glasgow. Once people see it action they usually can see how shared space works. This is a return to public space for people, the foundation of civilisation as it evolved over thousands of years. Contemporary examples regenerate community rich in shops, cafes, post offices pubs; the fabric of village, town or city life. This was how it was before cars destroyed all our urban spaces. We visited Poynton and sent a small boy across the main junction without hesitation. No problem. See youtube clip Poynton Village shared space Free Wheel North.
+norman armstrong Please explain why, in Poynton, most cyclists avoid the road and use the pavement. That usually means they are frightened of using the road.
+norman armstrong Please explain why, in Ashford, 91% of women were afraid of the shared space, and the more people used the shared space, the more they wanted it changed. Don't trust me, don't trust people that make money out of installing shared space schemes, do trust disinterested observations of what happens in the real world. See, for example, eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ "The authors conclude that some of the claims made on behalf of shared space have overstated the available evidence", which is fighting talk in that context!
+Tom Gardner. Cyclists don't avoid the roads in Poynton, as indeed the video I made at Poynton proves. Tiny cyclists use the pavement, as they do everywhere, which is good.
Regarding the vested interest argument, one should look to the multi-trillion pound business of selling speed, cars, traffic lights, oil and traffic engineering. My organisation provides more activity for the disabled than any other in Scotland and we are a voice for shared space and its link to human rights. Shared space is the birthright of all human beings and existed for at least 10,000 years, until the motor business systematically removed it during the last 100 years. The fear of shared space is interesting. It's a function of institutionalisation. Freedom is terrifying if you are not used to it. People come out of prison unable to cope with decision making due to never exercising any autonomy. Everyday tasks cause great anxiety. In street life we have become inured to machine control, herded like cattle and diverted away from desire lines. Navigational ability atrophies and replaced with terror. Once 'they' have us in the grip of fear in its easy to remove our human right to move freely and our will to move is ceded to the traffic light, kerb, railing and barrier. Shared Space reinstates the right to freedom of movement and individual autonomy: you have the ability and right to cross anywhere and anywhen. Fear of freedom is the psychological barrier to shared space. But that fear has no basis in reality, for it removes the greatest threat to safety in modern life: speeding traffic.
+norman armstrong Please read what I *actually* wrote. Whenever I have been to Poynton the *majority* of the cyclists have *illegally* been on the *pavement* with pedestrians. Most of the cyclists on the road were lycra-clad "dedicated" cyclists. Those on the pavement were exclusively "normal" people in everyday clothes.
+norman armstrong Your philosophical claptrap about institutionalisation (etc) is demonstrably false. (1) the more people used Ashford, the more they wanted changes. In other words, familiarity breeds fear of shared spaces. (2) desire lines were *not* followed; people huddled against the edges out of fear! (3) The majority of people, and 91% of women, felt anxious there. Take the trouble to read the UWE report eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ and you will see how "unusual" your viewpoint is.
I started watching with the attitude of "this is an accident waiting to happen", but I'm very impressed by it. It is true...a green light at a junction is almost a sign to say "It's your turn - get through as fast as you can, nothing is going to happen", yet when the lights are down everyone creeps through, checking all around them and being extra spacially aware. I cycle through Chorlton and Salford most days and constantly feel like I'm on borrowed time. We need more of these.
The lesson for me is that when you remove restrictions from humans they become nicer to each other and accept responsibility. In a world heading towards ever more digital control and questionable rules this is a great example to how we CAN all co-exist. I use the junction regularly and love it as a pedestrian, a driver and as a cyclist. Freedom wins! Every time I drive in Poynton I naturally make eye contact with pedestrians. I enjoy giving way and the appreciation that comes back in return is amazing - surely a lesson to town planners who just want to demonize car drivers. Pedestrians and drivers really smile at each other which makes it a happier village. Well done. (PS yes I admit - I was slightly cynical during the roadworks!). The major challenge will be to maintain the safe flat cobbled / brick surfaces.
Thanks Steve. I've been banging on about this for over two decades, to TV and radio commissioning editors, newspaper editors (occasionally they commmission an article), councillors, traffic managers, roads ministers. Most of the time it's like banging my head against a brick wall. At my website/blog, Equality Streets, is a contact email if you'd like to be in touch.
Wonderful! More of this kind of thinking needed all over the country.
I noticed an interesting phenomenon here in Australia. When two lanes merge and there is a line demarcating the lane that is ending the drivers in the continuing lane will simply refuse to courteously give way to the leading car in the ending lane. Take away that line and you observe a lot more sensible behaviour.
Thanks Martin. I have nothing but praise for the film and the whole project. Thats why I put the inverted commas around 'marketing' - it's probably not the word I was looking for. I think the film is brilliant in presenting the problem/solution in a very effective way (the opening sequence traffic noise, whilst emotive, is so indicative of much of our daily lives). I'm a cyclist, a pedestrian, a motorist and a regular train user and now inspired once again by a little section of our populace.
In answer to the question: No, the available space on that part of the pavement is not "shared" but clearly set aside for car parking. I was just suggesting that as this is not shared the carefully separated footways and roads would have been perfectly complemented by separated cycle lanes.
Sorry for the delay replying, I don't want a bunfight over the merits of the scheme, which works well on the quieter shopping section in Park Lane and works well for motorised traffic flow and pedestrians.
Client was jointly Cheshire East Council and Poynton Town Council. Hamilton-Baillie Associates were lead designers. Plan-It Landscapes (Lindsay Humblet and Johannes Dobrat) did the detailed design. Stockley Associates (Stephen O'Malley) supported Cheshire East as project engineers. Phil McNeal was project manager. Contractors were English Landscapes (Phase 1) and Casey (Phase 2).
Super inspiring, way to take the town back! Would love to see this approach around City Hall here in Philadelphia.
Brilliant. The scheme we have waited for in the UK and that should be the tipping point for UK Shared Space street design. Other schemes have had the distraction of minor flaws. Poynton benefits from the perfect storm: having and wanting to do something, appointing a great designer with clear vision, a supportive highway authority and especially a politician with the drive to push it through. Lucky to have all four.Great detailing. Inclusion of non-priority 'roundels was a work of genius! Bravo!
Equity is central to sustainability on so many levels. This is a great example of the built environment giving form and balancing the need for public space and human mobility for all populations.
Very well done Poynton!
Public space is for people and their chosen method of using it should not confer advantage nor disadvantage.
Stage one in creating a better world.
Makes sense, I used to commute into Liverpool city center, one my easiest journeys was when there was a blanket failure of the traffic lights, the tailbacks that usually stretched from the tunnel entrance right round the city where gone, people just found there way through.
Wonderful. Proves people aren't the problem, control (law) was the problem. When law removed, people automatically become grace us, and the benefit is no accidents at all. Grace, Mercy, Peace to all.
I really like the thinking here! In Sweden we also have examples similar to this. A concept I really like are streets that are built really for pedestrian and cyclists, but where cars are allowed. So when you drive on such a street, you feel like you always have to watch out and know where pedestrians/cyclists are, which creates alot more safety.
I've seen the whole of central London with lights out of action - never was it less congested or more pleasant to move around. So what works on a micro scale works on a macro (not that Poynton is micro - it carries a lot of traffic). Give humans a decent framework, and their decent instincts will thrive. By contrast, give them a mean-spirited setting, and their mean spirits will flourish
Anyone who's been through Poynton on a Sunday around church chucking-out time will realise that while this works well for moderate volumes of rolling traffic, it is an absolute nightmare when there are large volumes of pedestrians (particularly as a cyclist - pedestrians aren't looking for you, they're looking at cars/generally dozing). I think this system could be used in small villages/suburbs elsewhere but isnt going to work in inner city areas where the traffic problems are much worse and there are people walking everywhere all the time.
Its good that they've tried something different and improved the situation over how it was before, but getting large volumes of people out of their cars has to be the priority nationally.
That's also the case elsewhere. A good study of what users actually fell and what actually happens (as opposed to theory) is at
eprints.uwe.ac.uk/16039/
It uses some very strong "academic language" when describing the evidence for shared spaces.
WotNoEngine
I do not accept Steve's melia-mouthed criticism. For him, the glass will never be half-full.
in reply to hee163
"absolute nightmare" - an exaggeration? When you leave a rock concert or race meeting, you see the reason for slow progress: loads of other people leaving at the same time. You're in the same boat, so it's acceptable. Why should people on foot look out for people on wheels? The point is restore the balance of power in favour of the vulnerable road-user. Given roads that are fit for people, above all fit for children, you would see car use decline, but in response to life-enhancing culture change, not mind-numbing regulation.
Martin Cassini Ad hominem attacks = you've lost the plot (and argument)!
Martin Cassini The whole premise of shared space is that it is that everyone has responsibility for their own safety and those around them in order to maintain smooth and safe flow of traffic (inc. pedestrians), and has EQUAL priority. In order for it to work everybody should keep moving where safe to, and should be keeping their eyes open for all other traffic... vehicles, bikes and pedestrians.
Cracked led me hear and I am glad that they did XD
Also this is genius and I think it could possibly help revitalize a lot of communities!
Inspiring. The film has answers not just in relation to how we can radically improve traffic & improve safety, but profound implications in re-learning how to relate & communicate. If we can get people to understand what 'shared space' really means, then the implications are wider than traffic concerns alone; in cities where we all share space, each individual's part can be realised, with the awareness of the true meaning of shared space leading to huge benefits in terms of noise, litter, crime
paulincumbria - you mean Howard Murray. He is that rare beast: a councillor with the guts to stand up to traffic officer jobsworths who do not know what's best, indeed they practise what's worst
Another reversal in the face of reality: "A pedestrian crossing is being *reintroduced* in Grimsby's Bethlehem Street. The original crossing was removed as part of the multi-million pound regeneration of the town centre in 2013, when the controversial shared space was introduced at the junction of Station Approach."
www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/Pedestrian-crossing-installed-Grimsby-s-Bethlehem/story-27448405-detail/story.html
I can't really comment about Poynton as a place to live, but I enjoyed being there and met some delightful people. I did find the lack of B+Bs in town disappointing - the closest one I found was in Hazel Grove. Commiserations though about the high cost of rail travel.
How much would it have cost to restructure the junction as two roundabouts, if the work had been done using standard road building materials. Did anyone calculate that, before this block-paving approach was taken?
In reply to DreamTheory: you could be forgiven for thinking the current rules of the road license killing. The point of Poynton is to shift the balance of power in favour of the vulnerable, allowing motorists to rediscover their humanity. Would you jump a cash point queue? No. Well, on the road too, use your manners to give way to others who were there first. Simples
A lovely example of how *low density* traffic navigates intersections with neither traffic lights nor markings. I've watched cars attempting to do this kind of thing at the Poynton rotary-not-roundabout, but it can't really happen in Poynton because the traffic density is higher and the junction smaller. I wonder if removing all the markings on Swindon's "magic roundabout" would have the same effect?
Negotiating a Crazy Intersection at Ethiopia
For me, the continued flow of traffic through the town and the wider spaces for pedestrians is a secondary benefit compared to the base improvement in social interaction and friendliness evident in the film. I realise we are, in effect, watching a 'marketing' clip, edited for the purpose of promoting the ideology, but the positivity of even the naysayers is just heart-warming. Three cheers for all involved!
Ben, driving through on the way home from Scotland this evening I saw the following:
- transition from Chester Rd to paved area has been starting to sink for the last few months
- 1st pedestrian crossing (lh side) kerb stones sunken/chipped and crossing pavement stones moved
- parking area outside RBS cash machine - stones badly broken around drainage
- park ln - kerbstone was sunken and broken.. now reset and still broken
- bigger roundabout kerbstones sunken
Not "terrible" but in 15 months???
Hello Martin
I work for Active Cheshire. We are the Lead Body for Physical Activity and Sport in Cheshire and Warrington. We really love your example of what has happened in Poynton and would like to feature it as an great exemplar of Active Design working in a busy transport environment. Could this be okay to use and share your video please?
Aiden Wilkinson - Active Cheshire.
I'm sure this kind of logic could be used to fix some of the traffic problems in Australia, but it would take some massive convincing of the various government organisations in control and the lobby groups who would fight tooth and nail against such progressive thinking. I only dream that this kind of intelligence can be applied to traffic management in parts of Sydney.
You will find useful information in this formal peer-reviewed study
eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/8/tran1200047h.pdf
Really glad to see a positive comment from a blind person - in York there is strong resistence to the idea on basis of it being 'dangerous' for the elderly and disabled and that it gives a green light to cycling on pavements etc because of the lack of kerbs.
Can you give details of the accidents you mention? Presumably damage to vehicles only, not personal injury (because of the low speeds)?
I wonder how much of the calming effect is due to the "shared space" and how much to the gateway treatments?
I come from Manchester so know Poynton and it's good to see the local council took the steps to improve the roads. I now live in Thailand where often they just switch off the lights even at major junctions and even though the standard of driving here is absolutely awful it does seem to work. I also found the experiment in Swindon to be interesting with the scrapping of speed cameras which drastically reduced accidents.
I just read that traffic levels are back up to pre-works levels of 26,000 vehicles per day.
Lots of interesting comments (and understandable concerns) on this novel 'experiment' which was extensively researched and observed working in other countries before it was proposed.
As a user of this junction for 7 years: before, during and after construction, on a daily commute basis, I feel I can offer valuable insight into the perceptions, habits and subtle changes which occurred in all users of that particular section of road.
Bottom line: we are all adaptable humans. We adapted to traffic, road signs, junctions where previously none had barely existed. By the same measure we can, and have adapted to the concept of learned behavior when all users enter the shared spaced area of Poynton village centre.
Of course it was scary at first. I was not only a car driver, but a pedestrian shopper in my lunch hours too. The major behaviour felt and noticed, was EYE CONTACT. We look left and right, still, before crossing, and we look at each other as drivers and pedestrians as our journeys transect.
A period of adaptation happened by osmosis, and I can tell you now.. as a driver, you take the notion of 'consideration for fellow human' into your everyday driving behaviour.
Finally... and this is important to note: the road from Stockport to Poynton to the motorway and airport is one of the most heavily used in the north of England. As part of the infrastructure regeneration for the north, currently the SEMMS motorway intersection is being build both sides of the wider area of Poynton ( namely High Lane, Hazel Grove, and Woodford ) which will prevent, I reckon, about 70% of current traffic volumes from needing to enter into Poynton village.
Once it's complete, there will be a marked difference in quality of life for villagers and people driving through who isn't heading for the airport etc.
Take a look at this: www.semmms.info/
No signage outside necessary. The detailing of the approaches and highway-to-village transition points at the entrances is enough to change to mindset of drivers. Drivers are very sensitive to subtle cues from their surroundings.
It's terrible! We were trying to get through Poynton today and at about 10:30 AM the tailback was about half a mile. The approach to the junction is reduced to one lane so no wonder. What a mess, no doubt the result of the Anti-car lobby.
Andy Howlett Before, when there were traffic lights and multi-lane approaches, traffic routinely backed up to Hazel Grove to the north, which I think is more than a mile (?). One thing I disagreed with at the time of the redesign was that buses weren't given lay-bys to pull into when dropping off or taking on passengers. Hence they caused tailbacks. Do you know if this is still the case?
Martin. Soon after the change, there was a bus stop which was clearly in a stupid place and whenever a bus stopped there it would bring the junction to a halt. I think that one has been moved or altered.
Andy Howlett Thanks. The scheme designer didn't expect congestion to disappear as a result of the changes, but thought at least it shouldn't be any worse than before, and expected it to be better outside peak times. In your view and your experience, is congestion worse than before, or about the same? What do you think of other results of the scheme, eg are speeds lower, road-user relationships any better, the feel and look of the place improved?
It's difficult to come to a firm conclusion as we use this road infrequently, but I don't recall a half-mile tailback at this point at an off-peak time on a weekday morning. It may have been even worse if the roadworks ( a short distance before this point) had not been 'throttling' the approaching traffic. As for generally, I suppose it's a brave attempt, but I'm not sure it's a good location to try this 'shared space' idea, as it is just too busy and some kind of by-pass is urgently required.
Andy Howlett I understand a bypass is in the pipeline. Sorry you experienced such dire congestion but presumably it would be no better with traffic lights, and everything else would be so much worse
My 5 year old probably won't be happy sharing the road with any number of vehicles, though. Like I said, though, given the circumstances, this is light years ahead of where it was, for which everyone involved deserves congratulations.
Very impressive - really well done on having the vision and strength to make this happen, I want to see something like this near my house soon!
18.9.13 Inspector Stephen Griffiths states, "Since April 2012 Police have received reports of three incidents around Fountain Place. Two were low speed minor comings together of two vehicles resulting in no injuries; the third a disagreement between a driver and pedestrian with a minor foot injury recorded [it appears unrelated to the layout and may have happened on private land]. There have been no fatalities." Covering 18months, these accident rates compare well with rates before the redesign.
This is brilliant! Should it really be so astounding that given a well designed space and the removal of arbitrary controls, people revert to their natural ways, and start being cautious and courteous with one another? Well done to all the people involved with this!
Great to see!
Especially the contrast between the part with traffic lights and the part without ^^
It "feels" more open and friendly.
As a driver, I guess I would be terrified the first time I had to take part in this but one can get used to everything.
As a pedestrian I love how this looks and gives you a.. well.. nicer feeling.
In addition, you save all the electricity for the traffic lights *g*
Great to see interesting concepts and ideas come to shine in such a phenomenal way.
However I do have a question about water runoff. England can can get quite snowy and wet and from what I gathered- you don't have any pavements - does that mean you don't have any gutters to relocate and move the water off the roads?
Also an important point to be made here: legal reform is more likely to follow the de-facto results of rebuilding our urban environments to be more humane, as here, than it is to preceed the same. For instance, if enough towns were redesigned this way, it's possible to see the government found new powers and/or issue new legal guidance because otherwise they will be getting a lot of bad press. The converse is not true.
Thanks for the reply. And perhaps the character restriction made me overstate the "anti-car" sentiment. I hold a license and own a car, although I'd say cycling is my primary mode of transport where I live in Manchester, so I don't want to ban cars completely. But I would route main roads around village centres rather than through them. The Dutch have a principle of establishing the purpose of a road, and here there were previously two purposes - village centre and through route.
Peter, I'm not a lawyer, but absent case law, nobody can say "that's how it is". We may as well say that the driver would end up paying more compo because in an environment like this, they know they must be doubly vigilant for more vulnerable road users - a higher duty of care than otherwise. There is nothing in the Highway Code re: turning across oncoming traffic that says "only if separated by a painted line" - after all, smaller roads are often unmarked, such as the one I live on. Agreed?
I took the National Highway Institute (US) two day course on Applying Flexibility in Highway Design this week. They used this video as a case study. I understand they are in the process of building the relief road. It would be interesting to revisit after the bypass opens.
Lengthy observations to date from independent monitors do not report "chaos" during peak hours, and the volume and flow of traffic continues to be significantly improved on the former traffic lights. No accidents have yet been reported in the Police Stats 19 files - can you give details? Can you also provide details on areas that are "crumbling" - it seemed to be holding up well when inspected last week. Parking on the pavement is certailnly not a "new" occurence, but there seems to be less.
As they say on Wikipedia, [citation needed]. In my opinion, cyclists on this layout are more likely to receive increased compensation due to the clear onus being placed on motorists to slow down and take extra care. Furthermore, not only are such collisions (IMO) less likely, they are also clearly going to be far, far less injurious.
(Part 2) As for people failing to nose out of Park Lane, the problem is, there is a culture of priority on the roads which, it appears, even equality-based design on its own can't overcome. The idea is not to defer to traffic from the right, but to take your turn more or less in the sequence in which you arrive: filter in turn. For over a decade I've been trying to change the culture from priority to equality. The campaign for traffic system reform continues (see Equality Streets)
Has there been any increase in accidents at the junction since installation as drivers become more complacent and the novelty wears off?
There is a pavement; it's just lower than standard pavements. There is also a camber to the carriageways and drainage where you would expect it to be
I love the idea of "Shared Space" - everyone is so annoyed with all the signals/lights in Sandpoint, ID. I think this would be a great idea for our community!
Just turn the signals off, and enliven the streetscape with nice things and interesting people! It's easy. Want to borrow an angle-grinder? Always fancied visiting Sandpoint, ID!
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Are you thinking of things like the pedestrian at 3:50 in this vimeo.com/118137432 video? Any comments on the points the blind people make in the other parts of the video, especially from 2:40 onwards? Or are they to be ignored and dismissed?
Amanda. Through traffic drivers have certainly benefited, based on the initial findings on journey times and delays. These have dropped significantly since the scheme was completed. Lots of data on pre- and post-completion, and most suggests that the junction works significantly better than the traffic -signal controlled former arrangement. But the purpose of the scheme was NOT traffic flows. It was about economic regeneration of Poynton. And this has clearly worked.
It was published in our newsletter Martin. If you let me have an email address I will happily email it to you. And yes the feedback we had was that it was safer for blind people before the scheme, particularly on Park Lane. When there was a regulated crossing people who couldn't see the traffic could be sure that vehicles had stopped for the red light and could cross in safety.
Thanks!
I think, parking is the greatest issue in downtown regenerations here in Hungary, even in the smaller towns. In the bigger ones it's hard even to imagine such great pedestrian areas not to be parked in, unless defended by pollers (or strict fines).
But it is slowly getting better.
Well, thats quite an emotional watch. Whatever your views on shared space (or anything traffic related) how inspiring to see the brains, talent and drive we have in this country in abundance finally being given an opportunity to express itself. Creativity, foresight, fresh ways of thinking needn't cost the earth and just look at the positive effects.
Brilliant design & implementation. This is what's needed across all major junctions in our towns and cities. Who were the designers for this scheme?
Around 26,000 vehicles pass through the junction every day. An unusually high proportion of HGV's.
Martin, I'm not in the habit of collecting accident statistics on my way to work.. sorry to disappoint you. All I can say is that the queues are exactly the same as they were before the work was undertaken. It is undeniable that the village "looks" a little better than before and I'm obviously grateful for the small added value to my house but these are not signs of a successful traffic management scheme.
Thanks for your efforts! Let's hope we can convince more councils to consider this approach. Is there any data out there indicating how much this approach costs compared to the conventional one?
No, this is the best that can be done with the narrow Park Lane road, but there's no pretending the provision along London Road or Chester Road wouldn't have been better for cyclists-particularly children- if the segregated narrow vehicle lanes had been accompanied by protected cycle lanes. Cycling that section when it's quiet in the evening and you're the only obstacle to an aggressive motorist is not "congenial". I'm a huge fan of the scheme, this is just honest experience.
I've don't think I've ever heard anyone use The Netherlands as a case study for shared space. Scandinavian countries are where it's most popular.
I suggest also a good Indicator (turn signal) -Rule. Same like in Germany ;)
- Do not use the indicator if you drive *into* the Street-Circle (Nobody want to know that you want to drive into the Circle xD)
- Use the indicator only if you want to *leave* the Street-Circle. (So that the waiting drivers know, when they can drive into the circle)
That shortens the waiting time.
If anyone uses the indicator if he is drive into the Circle, then the other drivers do not know: "does he want to get out at the next exit or has he forgotten to turn off his turn signal?" ( This error would slow the traffic situation again. )
I'd also note it's not shared space as normally understood-vehicle lanes are very clearly marked with surface and rumble strips, this is lane narrowing. Overall its brilliant, but if there were space you'd want cycle lanes.
This is a model that could work almost anywhere. It clearly works for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians, which I approve of as I use all three modes on a regular basis.
Congratulations to all those involved in this. A brilliant job and a stunning result. Other councils take note!
It just seems like the benefits here come from limiting - fewer lanes - and slowing the traffic, rather than the shared space.
If it's me you're calling an idiot, where do I claim 'this is what happens in the Netherlands'? I have sometimes wondered why Hans Monderman's innovative work in Drachten and elsewhere wasn't adopted more widely. Could it be because old habits die hard and real idiots die harder? I've always thought that equality expressed in public realm design would solve most of our man-made road safety and congestion problems (especially if backed by re-education and legal reform). Poynton is living proof.
It's amazing how well that particular junction is working. I am surprised that it only cost £4m. I tricycle as my only means of transport and never go through large junctions on the road but will always use the pavement. However, the junction in the video I am sure I would feel completely at ease cycling around.
Having it with only enough space for single traffic around both roundels makes it safe for any form of transport to join in with, unlike our British roundabouts.
Comparative traffic counts are awaited, but my guess is there's no difference. If the Cabstand junction in Portishead is anything to go by (lights scrapped in 2009), congestion and quality of life will see permanent improvements even with an increase in traffic
It is too early to say that this is "a safe civilised decongested public realm". As drivers become habituated to this kind of scheme, their behaviour will change.
The jury is still out, and Poynton should not be used as a justification for introducing such schemes elsewhere -- particularly if they are not quiet suburban areas like Poynton
It turns out I did have a hand in Poynton's Progress (my alternative title for Poynton Regenerated): representatives of Poynton went to Portishead to see the lights-off trial in action, and it was largely thanks to my lobbying and video, The case for a no-lights trial, that the Portishead trial took place
Amanda, thanks for your comment, depressing though it is. I was there with recording equipment on at least four separate days. I did not choose busy and slack times. I always wanted busy times. But the weather was against us on numerous proposed shooting dates. On the "after" filming day, I tried to interview drivers, but guess what - the traffic was always moving gently, even during evening rush-hour, so no-one could stop to talk, because they would have caused a jam. Out of space ...
Peter, is this attack based on legal opinion or conjecture? It's established case law that motorists have a higher duty of care towards vulnerable road users, especially in an area like this where there is no expectation on vulnerable road users to "keep clear". I find it unbelievably unlikely that cyclists and pedestrians would be in a worse position vis-a-vis compensation than if struck on an ordinary road layout (but that, FWIW, is just my conjecture).
Hi Martin! I'm from Brigham Young University-Hawaii's University Communications department. May we have your permission to use your video for a public university lecture?
Fonant, in another comment which I saw somewhere, you said you wouldn't cycle with your family through the junction. Are you saying you prefer the old system of traffic lights? Are you aware than 44% of personal injury "accidents" occur at traffic lights? Maybe this is a case of 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.
this was fascinating
I have driven a roundabout just twice in my life and it was unsettling. I hesitate too much to take my turn. Is that a problem in poynton?
I have observed drivers taking *very* strange trajectories around and across the roundels-not-roundabouts in Poynton. Most drivers (quite reasonably) assume they are roundabouts, some know that (for unclear reasons) they aren't actually roundabouts - and go whereever thaes their fancy! You have to assume that blind people might be walking across/in/along the road, since neither they nor their guide dogs can tell where the road is and isn't. About 5% of drivers "mount the kerb" around the edges of the "roundabouts", without noticing it.
I've been to Chennai, Hyderabad, Delhi and Bangalore, and you are right... Indian city traffic has absolutely NO rules, yet... people manage to cross the street (at their peril). What are the pedestrian fatality numbers in Indian cities? Are the railways more dangerous?
Where did most of the HGVs go? Unless you've got traffic count data that says otherwise, there appear in the "after" shots to be far less, especially artics. Not that less HGVs in a town centre is a bad idea, but those lorry movements have surely just moved elsewhere- if so where?
Well done Poynton! And I hope that in the long term, your scheme will prove to be as successful as it seems to have been so far. I think that councils down south have a lot to learn from you!
Take note Hertfordshire County Council!
It's a widely accepted fact that shared space schemes are in general a pretty good idea. I am personally in favour of them... but!.. this one was way behind schedule, is already crumbling due to poor construction and hasn't fixed the traffic problems that it was supposed to solve. In addition to the double roundabout system leaves any drivers who don't live in the area confused and liable to making basic errors when navigating this junction....
Thought I'd already replied to this. Of course children are in mortal danger on stndard roads subject to the lethal priority rule. This civilised space is a cradle of safety. All roads, certainly all urban roads should be like this.
The issue is with injury compensation, based on need. May be lifelong care. This scheme has ignored the fact that full compensation would be paid in Europe, but not in UK. Answer that.
Re: "Give humans a decent framework, and their decent instincts will thrive. By contrast, give them a mean-spirited setting, and their mean spirits will flourish."
Why did the supermarkets all decide that they need to make you pay a pound, just to force us to take our trolley back. This seems pretty mean-spirited of them. I assume that they have discovered that the pound deposit system works better than trusting people - which is what they were doing for many years before this new system.
I sympathise with the point you make here, Peter, and I forgot to say I'm also a rider, although not much in recent years. Thing is, you can't blame this scheme for not introducing legal reform. How could it? It's doing its utmost to create a space which stimulates low speeds, sociable interaction and civility. Seems to me it is succeeding admirably in its aims.
Are there any pavements in the meaning of the Highway Code clause 145? If so, where do they begin/end? (Of course, shared spaces *require* that it is ambiguous, and frequently drivers do cross what I would think of as the pavement.)
Yes, there are conventional pavements, delineated by kerbs.
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Thank you. Of course the kerbs are smaller and easier to cross than many of the ruts/potholes now found in many roads :( Also blind people that have been to Poynton cannot use the kerbs and find Poynton "horrendous" and "impossible". See the Walthew House Newsletter issues 8, 9, 10 for the full context.
Tom Gardner I had extensive correspondence with Walthew House which I mean to post at Equality Streets
Martin Cassini Please do post the URL containing the entire unedited conversation; it has been 5 months since the conversation which seems to have included Kay Kelly's comment "I'm sorry Martin, but your reply just underlines your lack of knowledge about visual impairment."
Martin Cassini Have you published this conversation yet? If so, URL, please!
Gloucester shared space retreats after four years hard won experience: they are adding a pedestrian crossing to the shared space. Why? Since "The scheme has not proved successful. It presents a danger to those using it." "People don’t understand how shared spaces work so makes it dangerous." "...attempted to cross while blindfolded and was almost hit a number of times."
I wonder how that will be "explained away".
FFI: www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Gloucester-City-Council-criticises-shared-space/story-23005273-detail/story.html www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Zebra-crossing-coming-shared-space-Gloucester-s/story-25754578-detail/story.html
+WotNoEngine Looks like nobody has been able to explain it away. Perhaps they hope people about to have inappropriate shared space farcilities imposed on them won't notice what happens in the real world.
More from this mornings drive - both drains outside St George's church have also sunken and the stones are starting to break up... again, not life threatening but shouldn't be doing this after 15 months. From a maintenance point of view I'd imagine this is a few orders of magnitude more expensive than using tarmac.
Is it online? You can't be wanting a return to how it was? Far from ensuring safety, traffic lights are the locus of nearly half of all personal injury accidents in the UK's busiest borough: Westminster. I appreciate that in the absence of culture change to accompany the redesign, blind people would fear the new arrangement. If I was nearer, I'd say let's meet on site but I'm 250 miles away. Maybe something can be arranged. (I happened to be in Sheffield yesterday.)
In addition to streetscape redesign, people need to unlearn the bad habits instilled by the anti-social rules of the road. The rules should be rewritten too. Out with priority and in with equality. Three rules will do: drive on the left, go clockwise round roundabouts, and take it more or less in turns. Children are in mortal danger on priority roads where people are fighting for gaps and green time. By contrast, shared space, or Equality Streets (see website of same name), are cradles of safety
Thank you for this upload it's really interesting !
Surely, if you present a driver with a big circular area with adjoining roads then they simply interpret this as an odd looking roundabout, and treat it accordingly. Is that not what drivers are now doing. Do they drive around the circular areas in a clockwise direction? Do they give way to traffic approaching from the right?
It can happen, even in Britain. Common sense engineering can make all the difference.
Filter in turn is a great idea, until, in the case of the US traffic system's all-way stops, when it is open to interpretation as to who 'got there first'. Whilst it is yield to the right (I think) when vehicles arrive at the junction simultaneously, many a driver will try to wave the vehicle to the left on, creating further confusion. But this is a Midwestern town that I am dealing with, where roundabouts have only just been introduced and people are stopping on them to let people out.
A truly inspiring video: I met Ben when he was trying to get this sort of thing going in Bristol. It is wonderful to see intelligence and vision being applied - well done to all involved.
The shared space outside the Hippodrome (1) looks a mess because of tarmac scars across it (2) has caused too many people to walk in front of 7 ton busses, with the obvious detrimental effect to their health. No doubt Ben would claim it "isn't a true shared space" and "they did everything wrong".
Tom Gardner I would indeed! It isn't, and they did.
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Can you tell us what they did right and wrong, please.
Who is "they"?
Ben Hamilton-Baillie Rephrase: "can you tell us what was done right and wrong, please?". I'm interested *solely* in avoiding predictable mistakes elsewhere in the future, not in apportioning past blame. Hence "they" is the set of *anonymous* individuals and organisations that created the mess, and I'm interested in the results not in the process that lead to the results.
It would have been nice to have seen some actual traffic data showing that the throughput of traffic from different directions has not been made worse; are drivers, for example, now rat-running or finding other routes because they regard Poynton as a battleneck now? All the video contained was one person saying her commute had dropped to 10 minutes, which is anecdote, not data.
Ditto how much did all this cost, and where did the budget come from?