Early Buddhism & Secular Buddhism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- Folks interested in a secular approach to Buddhism will find many forms of Buddhism congenial. Why is early Buddhism particularly so? We will look at the Kevaddha Sutta (DN 11) and some material from Richard Gombrich, eminent scholar of early Buddhism, to help illuminate the discussion.
Websites mentioned in the video:
suttacentral.net
accesstoinsight.org
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I’ve always struggled with the what I consider the practical and applicable teachings of the buddha and while also considering the more fantastic and supernatural occurrences. Thank you for straightening out how these supernatural tales may have arisen after the time of the teachings
Sure! I think we have to be careful though not to say that all the supernatural claims arose later. Some of the early teaching does involve claims about speculative topics as well.
Doug's Dharma your videos have helped me very much on my path. Do you have one in particular that deals with how to secularly confront these speculative claims that we come across in the teachings? I don’t want to be discouraged when reading the suttas
I don’t have much to say on that except hey, just bracket off anything you think sounds speculative or unlikely. In the ancient world folks had a lot of beliefs we don’t share nowadays, that doesn’t mean they weren’t wise, just that they didn’t quite have our advantage of knowledge in the sciences.
Great channel. You are taking exactly the approach I appreciate. Subbed
Awesome, thank you!
Early Buddhism basically separates myth and deification of the Buddha from the teachings but do not exempt beliefs such as rebirth and other supramundane experiences. Search the internet for Piya Tan teachings. This man, an ex Theravada monk of twenty years has spent his life studying the Buddha, his teachings and early Buddhism.
Yes thanks Will, I’m quite familiar with the Dharmafarers, Piya Tan’s website. Indeed I’ve cited some of his writings in my videos. 🙂
in the bibliographic video on early Buddhism, you Doug already mentioned that the book by Richard Gombrich (What the Buddha thought) presents some controversial ideas, and in this video you again mentioned that early Buddhism is a topic of some controversy. I'm becoming very curious
Oh yes, I may get into some of the controversies eventually. One in particular is the question as to whether or not mettā (loving kindness) practice could lead directly to awakening. I will discuss mettā practice soon but will leave controversies for future videos.
In general I hesitate to get too deeply into scholarly controversies since although they can be interesting for those few of us who are fascinated by the cutting edge, most folks probably would prefer the basics, material that they can put into practice. I'm sure I'll get to them eventually though!
small point: ex cathedra is "from the chair." but you're on the mark by saying "from the cathedral" because the bishop's chair is in the cathedral (hence the name) and the bishop is the highest authority in any diocese.
Oops, great catch, thanks Matteo!
I've been trying to practice the Prajnaparamita in a Sotō Zen context, for me it's being like the apex of skepticism, we doubt words, symbols, our own senses, even our own notion of self. We just observe don't judge and try to be open and compassionate to everything. In that context we see how we create our sense of self through sensory information and mental formations and how everytime we cling to something that becomes part of our perceived identity and we are reborn in a knew form. Once we've deepen the insight from that process we decided to don't be born anymore, we don't let anything limit us and don't cling to any view. So we really don't know what will happen after we die, if we are gonna be reborn in that or any other realm or if we will be anayolated but we'll hopefully learn to let go of life as a good dream. I mean, before I was born I couldn't possibly imagine what it was like being alive and from an individual point of view it's a magical process, It's like I came out of nothingness and from nothingness I'll return, who knows if it can't happen again, important is that we learn to be prepared and acceptative from whatever comes.
In that context of Prajnaparamita I think the Boddhsatva vow makes a lot of sense, because I could get out of the world of egos, of separation, pain and anxiety and live happly ever after in solitude but I decided to vow to come to this whole samsaric confusion to help other beings with a smile in a face, a smile of someone who got the joke, who knows it's all empty, but that emptiness is not different than form. Kind of like a Nietszchean eternal return but with the compassion ideal in the place of the Überschman and with the joy of union with the whole of reality in every breath.
Sure, it can work for you depending on how you're approaching it. Thanks for that Gabriel.
Youre great!
Thanks so much, you're great too! 😄
Great explanation Doug. As I have shared with you, my foray into Buddhism which started many years ago has led me to the same conclusions as you. It seems to me that there is a tension between the fundamental teachings and some of the ones that seem more interested in future lives, viewing past lives, and gaining supernatural powers, etc. They are unnecessary and in some way conflict with the fundamentals in ways that make them extraneous to the practice.
Thanks for that Michael. I wouldn't want to be dogmatic about it. Some folks find the traditional teachings useful in their lives, and that's fine too. 🙂
Are you referring to Theravada when speaking of early Buddhism?
Thanks for the great question Sttonkeoj. It can be difficult completely to tease early Buddhism apart from Theravāda belief and practice, since Theravāda belief and practice is based around the same Pāli material which is so critical to understanding early Buddhism, and also since there is a broad continuum of Theravāda belief and practice, from less to more historically sophisticated. But that said, I am talking about early Buddhism rather than Theravāda as such.
Theravada Buddhism is all about early Buddhism being preserved in the Pali cannon, this is a well known fact, don't try to create division between these two words.
This is obviously false, Theravada Buddhism has historically promoted texts and ideas that are not early Buddhist ideas (Abhidhamma ideas, the Visuddhimagga, the Abhidhammatthasangaha, etc)
just a different question on your earlier videos....Is Zen meditation a gyana meditation and vipasana the other kind?
This is a difficult question to answer. Zen meditation certainly involves samādhi or calming meditation, and etymologically the word "Zen" is related to the word "jhāna". But Zen practice also involves aspects of mindfulness, that is, an open, nonjudgmental approach to all that comes before the mind.
Part of the problem with answering this question is that Zen practitioners are less interested in clarity of explication than they are in just doing. So I hesitate to give a definitive answer!
Vipassana meditation stems from mindfulness, but with an emphasis on seeing into the changeable, unsatisfactory, and selfless nature of experience.
I was wondering if you would be interested in reviewing Thich Naht Hanhs book “The heart of the Buddha’s teachings.” Thich Naht Hanh is a Zen monk. In his book explaining Buddhism, an what the Buddha really taught. It appears very secular, with good reasoning behind the ideals. He promotes Zen mindfulness but also maintaining the core of Buddhism. Four noble truths, Eightfold path, Three dharma seals, an Five aggregates an so on. I think the review would go great with the channels theme. Just curious to see your opinion on the matter.
I like Thich Nhat Hanh and have mentioned him a few times on the channel, though his approach is very different from my own in that he is not scholarly, and more of a Zen practitioner than someone interested in and knowledgeable about early Buddhism. But yes, his approach is generally quite secular in orientation even though he is a more or less traditional Zen monastic. I don’t have a copy of that book of his though I have heard of it. If I can find one around I might do a review eventually, yes. 😊
In my very limited experience of Zen, my impression was that it was quite secular due to its anti-theoretical nature. It's technically Mahayana, but quite skeptical and low on theory in a "shut up and practice" kind of way. What are your impressions of Zen in terms of its secular potential?
(I chose early Buddhist practice over Zen for the reasons you mentioned in your video - its anti-theoretical stance also led to less instruction and justification that I would have liked)
Thanks Greg, completely agree. I practiced Zen for many years because its no-philosophy stance did fit well with a kind of "do the dishes" or "chop wood, carry water" approach to belief and practice. Also I find the aesthetic compelling.
But personally I'm more of a rationalist, so I need some reasoned justification in order to understand why I should do the practice, and what I'm aiming at. I also think many secularists are equally interested in reasoned understanding.
But, not all are. I do think many will still be attracted by Zen, and I can understand why. I wouldn't rule out going back to a Zendo from time to time myself.
Gregory I agree! When reading Thich Naht Hanhs book The heart of the Buddha’s teachings it felt very secular in nature when Thay explained what the Buddha taught.
Great video! Seems very much in line with what Stephen Batchelor teaches.
Thanks Keith, glad you enjoyed!
I'll definitely be back for more! :-)
Glad to hear it! 😀
thanks again, Doug, for this very interesting video (I'm sorry for repeating over and over my sincere thankfulness). What dou you think of the term Nikaya Buddhism?
I've just saw that you have actually used that alternative term, so this earlier question is somehow superflous...
Thanks again for your kind words José. Yes, I do think a phrase like "Nikāya Buddhism" makes sense in the case that we are trying to elucidate the kind of Buddhism found in the Nikāyas. But I think we have to use these phrases lightly since no phrase is really going to be perfect.
Could we say early buddhism is Buddha's word and his close fellows?
Yes, I think we could, Phra Uckaradet Mettigo, at least so far as we can know these facts from the texts that remain.
So, what are you going to concentrate on when you stop breathing? From the point of view of the tantras, mindfulness of breathing is very limited. I love your videos by the way! Even though I disagree with some of your conclusions.
Thanks david! There is always room for disagreement and differences of interest. All paths are right for some and not others. That's fine, so long as we're aimed at the goals of wisdom, kindness, calm. As for meditation, oh my gosh there is so much more to early Buddhist meditation than mindfulness of breathing! Just for starters mindfulness of breathing is only one very small part of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. See my playlist: th-cam.com/play/PL0akoU_OszRjItCXmF-MMPdKwTdtGSxl-.html 🙂
Vipassna after calming the mind.
What do you think about the new kadampa tradition? They are big here in uk but when you delve deeper they appear to have hidden agenda driven by Chinese government?
I am not personally knowledgeable about New Kadampa, though my friend and sometime co-author Justin Whitaker has written about them in the past. For example: www.patheos.com/blogs/americanbuddhist/2011/05/new-kadampa-survivors.html
I am losing interest in buddhism in general and any detailed study of Buddhist texts, and becoming more interested in the monumental task of overcoming craving, lust, greed and anger. Once you believe that these things must be overcome, reading becomes a distraction. Only the development of willpower remains to be valued.
I understand where you’re coming from Fruit Addict. It’s what makes me less interested in writing scholarly articles than practicing. But really it shouldn’t be an issue of either/or. Detailed study of Buddhist texts can uncover lots of really fruitful approaches to practice, since they were largely composed to that end by some very wise individuals. Willpower though - interestingly not really a concept found in early Buddhism. Effort is key, but we should be careful that that effort is balanced and doesn’t become ‘efforting’ or more ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’. Lots of food for thought! 🙂