Analysis: The Simplest Fighting Games
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2017
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How accessible fighting games are preserving their depth and what it means.
Thanks to Sam Not-Sam, Matt Bahr, KILLYIS, Jamaal Graves, WoodenFence, Dekapact, Cory Wright, Miguel Obando and everyone else who pledged on Patreon!
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BGM in order:
Tekken 7 - Infinite Azure
Street Fighter III: Third Strike - Makoto Theme
Mega Man X - Sigma Fortress 1
Fantasy Strike - Geiger Theme
The Consouls - Infinite Azure (Tekken 7)
• Infinite Azure (Tekken... - เกม
The original title of the video was confusing to a lot of people, so I changed it. Now it's more accessible.
+Core-A Gaming nothing like good old self-deprecation
Core-A Gaming stop lowering the skill gap lol
Core-A Gaming I believe fantasy strike and Rising Thunder to be a great game for beginners and also great for advanced players!!! I love those games I can't say it enough!!! You complain competitively and pull off Kick-Ass Combos and not feel like someone's talking down to you........... With that said Guilty Gear XXX L was probably my favorite
7:40. ppl will always find away to teabag, hmm i think yomi counter suck. it ask of the player to leave his def wide open, while other game you can keep blocking and just press 1 or 2 button to tech out if
That's so meta.
lowering skill floor is okay
lowering skill ceiling is not
And this is what fighting games fail to pull off, anymore.
This guy nailed it
Top tier comment
hahahaha the sheer level of ego and self-importance of the "git gud" elitists crowd...
Says who? You? Did I miss the memo on you being named ambassador of some shit?
Now, on the actual argument and its apparent logic. On the surface it makes sense, I mean, if your skill ceiling is high, it doesn't affect the players picking up the game whatsoever if the floor is low, that's sound, right? Wrong. Of course the ceiling matters to players wanting to pick up the game. What's the point of picking up a game, if you know you're always gonna be mediocre at it at best? Why botter playing it at all? There's also the fact that the floor has much less room for tweaking. I mean, how complex can you make for someone to make basic stuff in the game? No one will ever make a game where you have to execute a Shun-Goku-Satsu command to throw a heavy punch. People do, however, shove laughably complex stuff as to make the ceiling higher and higher and higher. By making games like the ones mentioned in the video, you're making games that people will know from the start that there's a realistic chance they can become proficient at, that they will be able to play with everything the game has to offer and be competitive, etc. It's easy to say "oh but lowering the floor should be enough", but let's be fucking real, who here sincerely and genuinely believes it's enough to take games like Blazblue or whatever, make stupid "make some lame ass automatic combos by mashing the same button" features and call it a day, thinking throwing that bone will be enough for people wanting to play games where they can actually be competitive? It's almost insulting, it's like giving a disconnected controller to your 3 year old brother so he thinks he's doing shit. But the most glaring and obvious flaw in the argument is this: Is there like, a single unique fighting game in existence? Last time I checked there were countless... So why in hell would anyone care if these types of game exist when you can still play your dear "4000+ hours of gameplay to get good" anime style fighting games? Is there some law in effect now, where the government limits the maximum amount of fighting games that can exist at any given time, that I'm not aware of? Please...
PS: let's not even get into the pros at EVO talking highly of Fantasy Strike (for instance) and saying how it's easy to pick up and master but *hard to actually be good at* and that they wish to see more of it. I mean, what do these guys know, right? XD I mean, why make the games nuanced and being good about subtle aspects of it if you can just shove 178910981768198816 different features in it that the average person won't have time to delve into in a dozen lifetimes and call it a day, right?! XD
Smash Bros has an interesting form of intentionality. When you start, you know what your attacks are and it's super easy. Then you learn advanced techniques and combos, and intentionality goes out the window for a while as you try to get the inputs down.
To be fair a lot of those "Advanced techniques" are glitches that were never intended to be in the game.
Alicia Fraser actually the devs knew about some of these techniques
+Red Hawk They didn't know about them until after Melee was released, and after that they did everything they could to get rid of them
Alicia Fraser nope, in a Nintendo power issue Sakurai stated that the devs new about wavedashing and the only reason they removed it was to make the game more accessible to newer players
Truer words have never been spoken. I took me about 5 minutes to learn how to wavedash, but at least a week before I could do it effectively in battle
I always thought one of the best fighting game for beginners was Samurai Shodown. It's not a game about combo so execution is not as much mandatory as some other games, it teaches you all the fundamentals like pokes, footsies, placement, zoning, etc. And teaches you to always think before pressing a button because the game was brutal in terms of damage. In fact it did the exact opposite of Fantasy Strike: punishing you for pressing a button when you shouldn't instead of rewarding you. Don't know if rewarding you for that will be more beneficial for players in the long run though.
Not the one i have. The tutorial is a video with no retentive function.
But fantasy strike punish the player that push buttons with the Wyoming counter system. If you push, you get hit, if not you counter the grab. Samurai showdown only were more punishing (with fucking 85% damage in a single hit lol)
@@Canalbiruta Fantasy Strike's Yomi counter is kind of cheeky, and I get that it's supposed to encourage new players to A. Stop trying to mash out of pressure and B. Anticipate when people are trying to walk up and throw you, but I still don't like it as a teaching tool for the latter.
Throw-teching is a little bit of a curve ball compared to teaching people how to deal with regular pressure, since it's the one time you SHOULD be pressing buttons. Teaching them to specifically not do anything when throws are happening is like teaching a new driver that because his car has long range sensors, he doesn't have to look at all before changing lanes; Yeah it works sometimes, but teaching it as a mechanic instills bad habits that have to be unlearned later on.
@@davidk7439 Well, you could also just look at it as its own unique game mechanic in the context of that game instead of imagining that the developers are trying to teach you how to play all fighting games. In reality, different fighting games have never been that similar to one another anyway, for example some games encourage hyperactivity and some encourage extreme patience, one game can't teach you how to play the other and IMO that's what gives each game its own appeal
@@benjman8369 The problem is that this game is specifically marketed and built as a stepping stone for new players entering fighting games. Learning DBFZ helps me learn how to play Skullgirls, which helps me learn Marvel, and vice versa for all. Tekken helps me learn Soul Caliber, and Virtua Fighter. MK11 helps me learn Injustice, and so on. And all of them have mechanics which are shared, like a lifebar, having combos, and throws.
Fantasy Strike has a lot of mechanics that make it unique, but its throws going against nearly all other fighting games instills bad habits for every game that ISN'T fantasy strike.
"The worse your decisions become" - shows clicking on add to cart button for No Man's Sky. I'm dead right now 😂
best part of the video lol
3:04
For anyone wondering where that is.
If this video was made today, the game would have been replaced with: FALLOUT 76 or Battlefield V. (pick your poison)
That part actually aged somewhat poorly. NMS is actually a pretty sweet game now.
Bradon Moore Yes, however that definitely doesn’t mean it “aged poorly.” We were lied to on release and just before release. Them adding things we were promised 1 AND A HALF YEARS LATER doesn’t mean the game got better. It just means the game got finished.
Sorry for going on a rant
Great video, but it should be noted that the study that found that judges hand out harsher judgments later in the day was refuted by a different study. There were a lot of problems with the original study. For example, judges schedule easier cases earlier in the day.
what about the candy?
There was a similar study that had to do with hunger, whether or not the judge had lunch recently or was anticipating lunch. The more hungry they were, the worse judgement they made, less likely to empathize, etc.
Cool, thanks for the heads up.
If you increase a judge's mortality salience they also become harsher as evidenced by Terror Management Theory :D
Why no mention of Pocket Rumble in the video?
4:58 lmao I just tried these inputs in Smash and they do execute the True Shoryuken.
Bruuuuhhhhh
So thaaaaats how crescent kick turns into Shoryu
Smash ken and ryu have true inputs. There's even a move you can only do with true input.
Terry Bogard: *Hold my hat.*
Carlos Castor it quite literally says it works in the moves list
*Starts the video by talking about a persona 3 character*
Me: I'm listening
That's why I love P4U
They made RPG Character
FGC CHARACTER
Pity BBtag didn't keep the status ailments
MARIN KARIN!
"WTF Jin?! ARE YOU HIGH!?!"
i didn't expect that
@@Ramsey276one bbtag is probably fine but I don't think I will ever enjoy it just because I played most of the games crossing over before it and feel so sad every time I pick a character I liked on other games
And now 4 years later so many people understand what you mean
You know shits about to get real when that Makoto theme comes on!
Nine the Phanthom That, The Skullgirls character select theme, or the Megaman X Sigma Stage theme
There was a game for PS1 that existed in this space called EVIL ZONE. Very simple to play. Had one attack button and a block button. all moves were made by one direction and tapping, double tapping, or holding the attack button. One of the most fun games I ever played.
Glad someone remembered it!
Personally, I don't think Street Fighter needs to be made more accessible. What we need are accessible fighting games in addition to the hardcore ones we already have (which is the point of this video, if I'm not mistaken).
As some one who enjoys fighting games ( I play mostly dragon ball fighterz and I'm purple rank) the reason I have never played Street fighter is the complexity of the input. For me they feel over complicated
The problem in this is that Capcom wants people to buy their games so they don't go bankrupt. The way they managed SFV made a lot of people upset (even though I heard it's gotten much better compared to a couple years ago) but you can't be angry at Capcom for attempting to make a game that would expand their player base. I hope they can get to a better middle ground with the next Street Fighter, but people still play SFV, so it didn't turn out as bad as a lot of people say I guess
@@idkmanp9573 the point is to be complicated. Sf is a heavy footsie game, and most of the footsie of street fighter is to know how to use your special moves at your advantage while knowing when your opponent is going to use their's, hence why the special inputs are complicated, and often put you in a situation that is hard to go back to defense. Dbf is more like mvc in a way that, the input game is based in lots of combos and vertical movement, so i can see why you can't get used to a grounded, footsie heavy game, with weird inputs like guile's super specials
@@MessatsuGoshoryu02 the problem with sf5 accessibility wasn't just lenient inputs, is more like, the game has less options that lead to meaningful choices of your own. Like, every ryu plays the same, every guile plays the same, every juri plays the same. Sf5 doesn't have more space to diferente play styles since the game heavy hand doesn't let you do much. And to be honest, capcom is better of making another franchise that is something more like fantasy strike or divekick (the obviously best fighting game ever)
@@Canalbiruta yeah dragon Ball fighterz also uses a lot of neutral. And I'm good at neutral in third strike I just have trouble with combos
Me and my nephew just started playing FS. I'm no fighting game veteran or anything, but I've reached "intentionality" in a couple games so i tend to be able to crush beginners at most fighting games i pick up. Some basic fundamentals and directional input familiarity go a long way. However, me and my nephew, who is completely new to fighting games, are having SICK matches. I think he might like fighting games after this. It's a great game!
great to hear that! well done.
There are games where they are accessable and have enough depth to stay relevant.
- Power Stone
- Rival Schools
- Dead or Alive
- Virtua FIghters
- Samurai Shodown
- Koihime Enbu
These last three are a bit "difficult" because you need to learn a bit of the game to enjoy it, but it still more accessable than most.
DOA accessible?.... oook
@@argusy3866 yes it is a lot more than the 2d fighting games. Thats why it was always the one friends and I was playing thqt one casually.
Also a friend became really good in it without online videos explaining what meaty normals are etc.
When you play with nonclue it still looks good. Some of the rocknpaper scissor parts are really easy to understand etc.
I’d say blazblue cross tag battle is also on this list
I seriously thought you were going to mention nidhogg
Nidhogg is like 3/4 of the way between divekick and most fighting games. It has high/low blocking, and that's basically as far as complexity goes. It's great for people who just don't like fighting games (myself included.)
Nidhogg has a lot more going for it than that. It has many completely unique mechanics. Trust me when I say Nidhogg’s meta is completely underexplored
Nidhogg is a fucking masterpiece, though if smash is not a fighting game, much less is nidhogg
Carlos Espinosa full agree. Don’t tell me Smash isn’t a fighter but try to defend nidhogg
nidhogg is great. it's the kind of game that you can explain to someone in 5 minutes and they'll have a decent chance of winning and yet somehow has a huge amount of complexity to it if you really look into it. none of that complexity is actually needed to have fun or win, but it's there if you wanna learn it. also the game is just extremely fun.
5:19 this dude's right eye is warping
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!
Good eye!
I know this video is two years old, but wanted to chime in as I got into fighting games from an “accessible” title. A few years ago I got very, very into a game called Absolver. Something important to note is that the devs were former Ubisoft employees, and to my knowledge had little to no experience developing traditional fighters. As a result, the game was closer to Dark Souls PvP then a 2d fighter. Attack inputs were square or triangle, block was R1, and your class specific defensive ability was the left stick. The game added complexity in the backend, as players got to create their own move sets from a list of attacks. I’m glossing over a lot of other details, but the end result was an unintentionally brilliant intro to fighting games. The game was super neutral based (combos weren’t really a thing), and since attack inputs were literally a button press, the mental aspect of fighting games was much more heavily emphasized then execution. That mental aspect of a 1v1 fight is what drew me into more traditional fighting games. I know this is way too long, but my point is maybe the way to draw more people into the FGC isn’t to create a simplified 2d fighter, but instead create a different genre of game that emphasizes fighting game qualities more. That’s basically what Absolver did; most of the early content creators were Dark Souls players who saw something that was relatively similar, and then once people dug in they realized it was a pretty damn fun fighting game.
Probably gonna buy Fantasy Strike now. Thanks for the recommendation!
Syn Starr wait no stop! Pocket Rumble is just straight up better.
why not just buy both then? :>
Auso ~ There are some core problems with multiple mechanics in Fantasy Strike. Yomi Counter: Fantasy Strike does not have an answer to both players throwing at the same time, and I cannot think of a worse way to implement throw teching. On top of that, forward attacks in a game with proxy throws does not work.
it has a response: a random player gets thrown. so every if both players ignore the mechanic, they will get random results rather then solid. and yomi counter works just fine. every time i get yomi countered i feel like i deserved it for being too repepititve. this game is about reads, madude. complaining about a read-based mechanic in it is like complaining about assists or character swith mid-combos on marvel. both are there to add "emphasis" to the games's style.
Auso ~ ...random results for a CORE mechanic is just bad game design, especially for a 2D fighter. Go play Pocket Rumble and you'll see what I mean.
This is why we need another Power Stone and Bushido Blade. Both are immensely fun and MUCH easier to pickup than most 'traditional' fighting games.
MrStrikecentral power stone is just a 3d smash Bros.
And it's much better too.
MrStrikecentral Are you sure about that?
Yeah. Pretty damn sure. How about you?
MrStrikecentral smash>>>>>>>>>>>power stone
Infinite Azure Stage Music - 10/10
i know i love that song
How about that smooth jazz rendish? I didn't know I needed a sax version until watching this video.
WHO'S DA MAN?
JUNPEI
TAH DA DA DAAAA
Ace detective
@@shisuiki More like Stupei, Ace Defective
sofielundsskolan *D O N ‘ T L O O K U P*
he da man
People just need to be more honest with themselves. What I mean is - people need to accept that they are either casual or hardcore (and there are definitely people who want to be somewhere in the middle). Not everyone aspires to be pro.
Someone just wants to play the game for fun with their friends on the couch one afternoon. And then you have people who want to compete in tournaments. People should be allowed to be whichever extreme they desire. Hating on either is illogical.
Yet the industry is trying to remove one extreme.
In Guilty Gear Revelator xrd 2, you can choose a type of controls. You can choose between "Manual", wich is very exigent with execution and timing, and "Stylish", wich literaly has auto-combos and the window to preform special attacks is much bigger. So I won't say that no one is aware of this problem, or that there is nothing that has been done to be both accesible for casuals, and yet have depht for competitive players.
Yups
Mood. I literally just play fighting games to have fun with my friend; neither of us will ever be fgc material or pull off some crazy ToD, but it's enough to pull up a 2d anime fighter and do some crazy shit for 2 hours
I wanna like, but that dang 69
I share Sirlin's view on Fantasy Strike and really hope to see more games like it in the future. I'd love to see games across that whole spectrum.
hey folks
if youre coming here binging all the core a videos
i suggest you stop scrolling and not read the comments
its pretty rough down here
Core-A-Gaming videos be the coolest ever. I love how you analyze every aspect of fighting games. I wonder if you will branch out to more than fighting games.
Great video, but do we know what the Rising Thunder devs are up to? I know Riot brought them on, but I haven't heard anything from them, and I was really excited about Rising Thunder.
Schizomantis I tried to find some information about it all over the place but I couldn't find it.
Me too, I might just be looking in the wrong places. I'm almost positive they're still working on a game, so I guess we just have to be patient.
No real information was given by the Rising Thunder team. The whole studio was acquired by Riot Games, but what happened to the team is up for debate. Some believe that they went to work on Riot's balance team, and some believe they were meant to develop a League of Legends inspired fighting game, but neither have been confirmed, and if the fighting game bit is true, nothing has been announced or it has been cancelled.
Rising Thunder itself has been cancelled.
rising thunder was cancelled... mark my words lol the fighting game is coming and with it; its toxic fanbase which will collide with the toxic fanbase of the fgc . ladies an gentleman grab the popcorn and watch the blood bath.
sometimes it seems like parts of the industry still think complexity=depth and accessability means less depth. I liked the concept you call "intentionality," and I think it highlights the first turning point in accessibility wherein players will decide to drop your game or not. I want to seemore games where intentionality is found early in players, but the game is still very deep. I don't think we must go to the extreme of divekick to achive this.
I think a decent tutorial in fighting games would fix this, but i've only ever seen one in smash. Then again, smash mashing is punishable early on so it doesn't need to be in the tutorial.
I love that so much the hardest part of fighting games for me was always trying to figure out what combo I should do next or if I should block, Low attack, high attack and all of that and it took me forever to learn those skills, so easier motions that allow more thought to the actual thinking, reading and strategy would’ve been nice for me personally
I think that one of the games that could be interesting to look at is Mortal Kombat Armageddon on Wii. Not only they clearly show the buttons to press for the combos in the characters commands menus but special attacks have they own button dedicated (although pretty awkward at first (motion controls)) and there's no charge command, no quarter circles or other thing like that for combos. And you don't have to worry about the timing, you just have to enter the right imputs really quick and the combo will go with the right rhythm.
It's not perfect per say but it's definitively a good step towards accessibility while still keeping the complexity of the franchise.
I fuckin suck at fighting games but can't stop watching your vids
You should have mentionned Virua Fighter 5 fs. The deepest fighting game ever has only one punch button one kick button and a guar to simplify at maximum and to have to most natural and insticive executions. Easy to play hard to master because of its unluimited creativity potential..
RIP Virtua Fighter, a fighting game series without spammy noskill fireball spam made it 100x more enjoyable with actual fist fighting than spam fighter/throw fighter and its copy cats. RIP Sega never forget.
@@cattysplat Best thing about Virtua Fighter was that you could concentrate on fighting instead of worrying about your controls. It was very intuitive for its time and it introduced the simplified control scheme for fighting games that was later used by Tekken and SSB. It's a shame that because Sega didn't add enough backstory (in most people's eyes) and stuff like that that it got labeled as boring and too hard to learn or play.
Honestly, if Fantasy Strike have existed in the 2000s (where I started playing fighting games) I would be a much better player than I am now. Everyone that want to learn fighting games should play Fantasy Strike
I just got back into fighting games and stumbled on your channel. Great work on all your vids. A lot of information and passion. Don't stop!
Really appreciate you covering Fantasy Strike. It is a great entry point for new gamers trying to get into fighting genre. It just doesn't have a lot of publicity to draw in more players considering that it's free to play.
No tea bagging in Fantasy Strike haha! Didn't even think of that.Great video as always Gerald. Man I need a PC...
I really enjoy watching your videos, especially this one. Explaining and elaborating your point can be really educational and entertaining to watch. Keep up the amazing work.
I'm surprised/disappointed differentiation between cognitive skill vs. mechanical skill wasn't brought to bear in your earlier "Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap" video. Good to see them addressed here.
Decision Fatigue: the thing that leads people to buying no man's sky
Lmao
There's nothing wrong with accessibility in fighting games but it gets a bad rap because it's usually so poorly implemented. Games like MvCI seem to be under the impression that if you give the player one button combos that makes it easier to approach but it doesn't. There's so much knowledge required to play a fighting game adequately that simple technical ability isn't enough.
Positioning, footsies, defense, etc. These are important concepts that simplified special moves and one button combos don't teach you. The game feels shallow as a result and beginning players will still be getting thrashed by the more experienced ones and they won't understand why. Fantasy Strike seems to understand this by still requiring you to think about your actions but keeping the game simple enough that you won't be so overwhelmed by a better player.
N00BSYBORG MvCI isn't the only fighter with one button mash combos. KOF14 has it on at all times and can't be disabled. BlazBlue and GG have seperate modes as well.
Hell MvC1 has a mode that has 1 button special moves. A hadouken.......with one button press.
The fact is, anyone can mash but they won't win if they don't understand advanced concepts like nuetral, spacing, footsies, etc. And everyone who has played MvCI can confirm its still quite complex.
MvC has a bigger problem in its mediocre roster and awful presentation. But if there's one thing it does have, is complexity.
Damion Dixon How is any of that relative to the point I'm making? MvCI's shit roster has nothing to do with teaching beginners how to play a game. I only used it as an example because it was brought up in the video.
I'm well aware other fighting games do this too and they're just as useless there. Find me a new player who uses simplified controls in Rev2 and can put up a fight against people who've been playing it for years. You can't because GG is too complex of a game to expect a beginner to figure out with just simplified controls. Most fighting games are.
I agree with what ur saying in all honesty, but i feel like accessibility in fighting games is getting out of hand right now. Yeah, auto combos and stuff dont really make a difference on a competitive level, but like you said, it makes the game feel dry and boring. Take Street Fighter for example, from SF4 u have all these 1 frame links, execution heavy characters, and when you see someone use a character that combo has like 4 one frame links or something like daigo vs momochi at Stunfest USF4, its hype as hell to see. Now with SFV, u have not even like half the amount of combos u see compared to USF4. U have a Medium hit link into a special or something similar. It takes nowhere near the same amount of execution as before and as a player who knows how easy it is, its nothing rly special to see. I guess what im getting at is from a spectators perspective it takes some of the hype away from the genre imo.
My first fighting game was doa4 i believe. Learned some combos, beat the story modes and then made the decision to try some matches online and i got an achievement.... lose 20 matches in a row. Needless to say i havnt played a (real) fighting game since.
I think the biggest problem with fighting game accessibility is that they are mostly played by veterans, because they are so complex and therefor have a gigantic skill gap from button masher, to decesion maker. When a developer try to make a game easier to play ie. one button combos, or easier specials people who have invested hundreds of hours into the genre feel cheated. Rightfully so I might add.
So as a developer you are kinda' stuck with two choices, make the game more accessible and alienate your core audience or make the game more complex for the veterans so they don't get bored.
I’ve played Fantasy Strike and I really enjoy it. It’s easy to teach to friends too because it’s so simple.
I love how the video started on the theme for Infinite Azure and ended on the Jazz cover of the same song, as if making a statement through soundtrack about how something can be enjoyed through varying levels of complexity. Maybe I am reading too much into it though.
good observation, I think you're right
I think that having similiar inputs in all characteres can make a fighting game very accesible. Like Smash or DBFighterz
Pokken Tournament also does this.
Melty Blood Type Lumina has most inputs standarized, which helps you test and learn different character more easily
it can make it accesible but it also takes away alot of variety and options when it comes to player expression and just what a character is even able to do. its why it works best with games like smash who have huge rosters of characters who often have copies of other characters or tag fighters who kind of combines the assorted moves but also sadly suffers from lots of copied characters like Fighterz atleast a quarter of that entire roster plays almost entirely the same
Early Mortal Kombat games were like that, too. They all had the same basic moves, but different specials.
Didn’t mention that smash is incredibly accessible with children able to have a good time while also being very competitive
cuse smosh NOTTA feithingeam ....
only melee is competitive
Well no considering Nintendo made changes to Sm4sh and Ultimate to make it more competitive
Salty Tsunami ...and failed miserably
@@bonelesscommunism4031 its a fine game other than online but to be fair... almost every good fighting game has shit online
I think, for honor is an extremely interesting and rewarding to master unconventional fighting game. There us basically no tutorial, and you have to get all your information from external sources. But the depth of the game is simply incredible
The Junpei intro introduced me to P4U and I'm so glad it did
Iori is so, so hard but so, so satisfying
I feel like ARMS is another good example of these accessible fighting games that fall between the gulch of Divekick and everything else. All you can do at any given time is dash, jump, charge, shield, punch with either arm or grab. The depth comes from the inerplay of these abilities and how well you can use them to outplay opponents and land your hits. Also with how simple and streamlined the control scheme (except blocking with the pro controllers) it also makes reaching intentionality much easier.
Agreed, I play ARMS with my friends who aren't good at smash because it is much easier for them to get into.
Great video.
Really, I love watching fighting games, and to an extent love playing them too. But even after months - years of casually playing them, I still cannot for the life of me perform motion inputs properly and end up missing them a lot of times. I can't really tell what my problem is, either... Wrong timing, incorrect input, strict game, who knows.
But regardless, it gets tedious and annoying to play them when I make the right decision at the right time - but the move I wanted doesn't come out for one of those reasons. It's not the "defeat" aspect that bothers me, but it's the fact that it's an annoying way to lose. It makes me wish games like Rising Thunder that had easier accessibility while retaining depth of gameplay were more common. Or that Riot didn't kill Rising Thunder.
Losing cause you can't do inputs is annoying cause that's not the way you're suppose to lose. So you are right to dislike losing that way. Other dude is suppose to outplay you ya know.
Did you practise the same input for hours upon hours on end.
Go into training mode and spend 6 hours trying to do the inputs consistently.
Fighting games take months of lab time to get decent, if you just fight other people you wont get better
Yes, I did. Eventually I start doing them the slightest bit more consistently, but soon as I get into an actual match that goes out the window.
Hakkar6993 I know this is a year old comment, but it’s mostly about retaining your composure and getting in that muscle memory. if you practice your inputs consistently you’ll begin to remember them easier, and if you maintain your composure you won’t get nervous as easily so you can lock down your inputs easier.
(signed; a once floundering fish)
@@zoggere4226 : That's everything I dislike about conventional fighting games. I don't really want to have devote hours on hours to beating on stationary AI to master the perfect timings for button combos. I want to be worrying about the psychological elements of the game, reading/predicting opponents and outplaying people. If I wanted to do nothing but master exacting inputs in a solo session, I'd be playing Dance Dance Revolution or a rhythm game. It's a fighting game, I want to fight people. People that are into hardcore fighters seem to think that fighting games are supposed to be more a job than a game.
Your channel is a blessing! Such refined researched content... Very happy
I just stumbled on your channel and let me just says WOW! Such great content from you. Hope to see more of your wonderful work
Do nothing to counter throws is really intresting. The joke you made with it was on point
"doing nothing is too hard for you?" x'D
Love your analysis vids! Keep up the Great work!!
I've started playing Fantasy Strike about a week ago, and I absolutely love it. I was so put off from fighting games after SFV and DBFZ, but this...I think it's right up my lane. Simple enough to get in and play, but complicated enough to have fun with neutral/footsies and trying to read your opponent.
Hadn't heard of fantasy strike until now, that game looks super cool.
Another good fighting game to bring up for that would be Pocket rumble, it's inputs are just holding diagonal so it's super easy to get into and understand
SaltyTuna that time stop tho
8:55 that's Vega's (dictator) throw animation right there
I wish you made more content/videos like these.
The content/video is Very informative and a good way for people learn new things that we had no clue about.
I feel that this was a fantastic video with a lot of great examples used for analyzing fighting games
This video remembered me of Super Smash Land a fangame of Super Smash Bros that demake it to a game boy level, it is simple enough to only have 4 movement buttons, a jump button, and an attack button.
The zig zag input you do for the shouyuken is something I never like. I play Marvel vs Capcom 2 and some times I try to input it, I accidently do a Haduken instead
I pretty much ALWAYS do that 😭
You have to make sure you press the button ON THE DOWN FORWARDS, if you press it while holding forwards it’s too late (I know this comment is very late but still)
I usually just do: right, down, right
It tends to work for me most of the time
Your videos are incredibly insightful and articulate. I subscribed yesterday and am now binge watching everything you've made. Please keep producing more great content. I hope to support you through Patreon when I can. :)
This video introduced me to Fantasy Strike and Divekick. For that I say, thank you.
7:35 okay five inputs. when a game is simplistic i like to see if it has less than five essential inputs. why? donkey kong bongos.
The hell theres a blind fgc player?!
Yeah. I watched his video on how he plays fighting games and it's amazing. He doesn't need to be faced towards the screen to beat you, he only needs to hear things and react to them. I still don't have a slightest idea on how this works in his brain (like how does he know he's in certain range of his opponent to do a combo if he can't see the range he's in and it's not supposed to be performed at close distance) but it works.
@@gabikralj94 he can hear when he gets hit or when he hits something. If you throw low probing light kick and it hits someone is close...If he shoots he hears if the opponent block or jump. He can even gauge how long it took for the 🔥 ball to hit something to guess the range. Maybe the jump is audible too in most games.etcetcetc...modern fight game give a lot audio clues probably for what's happening...we just don't know how to make sense of that.
@@gabikralj94 well, since he has no sight, he must have extremely good hearing, and while he can't see distance from the opponent, he can probably make educated guesses based on when he last hit and where you start in the game.
that's how I think it at least, I'm not really familiar with how blind people do things
Blind SPEEDRUNNING
FIREBALL ECHOLOCATION!!!
Link please?
Absolutely fantastic quote usage at the end there followed by a great analogy.
the quality of your videos is always top notch. on point. good job :)
THANK YOU!!!! I feel like sometime in the early 2000s I blinked and suddenly I couldn't play fighting games anymore so I just gave up on it. Hadn't heard of Fantasy Strike before so now I want to throw all my money at them.
I really enjoy the thoughtful content on this channel. it reminds me of when i first got into fighting games and i was awful and then i learned the good old 2 piece combo and beat all my friends, and then i got new friends and i was still awful lol. one of those friends took me on as a student so that i would at least be a challenge and here i am 10 years later...still awful.
i forget what the point of this comment was. probably just nostalgia. keep up the good work!!
Lethal League and its sequel Lethal League Blaze are probably two of the most accessible fighting games out there, but the amount of depth it retains is amazing. I highly recommend checking it out if any of you haven't already.
This was an excellent analysis. I'm not much of a competitive FG gamer but I always appreciate the methodology behind the design of these types of games.
The thing is fgs were developed for arcades. The desire to get better originated from wanting to play longer on your coin. There was a core gameplay loop that involved thee NEED to get better in prder to play longer. To overcome the challenge of the machine and then of other players. While fgs evolved, the core loop that took players from noobs to vets erroded (arcades). Now were left with a casm of skill and tones of technical knowledge between vets and newbies and the only thing that we have to replace that is tutorials(which when compared to arcades is obviously an inferior motivator from a psychological perpective).
Without that loop players dont currently have a strong enough incentive to bridge the gap other than passion for the genre.
I remember renting sf4 from blockbuster spending the entire rental trying to learn to throw a fireball. I almost gave up. If not for my intense curiousitu i would have never ended up playing competetively, an period of my life that spanes 5 years and meeting many friends.
As always, great episode Gerald.
Love these, well made, thought provoking videos.
Anyone know any other channels like this one?
Game Makers Toolkit
I just played Fantasy Strike for the first time today and had a lot of fun. The rollback and crossplay help me find matches even in my country. I chose to main Geiger, because the suit aesthetic and the time stop powers are to big character sellers for me. Plus I enjoy his mechanica.
That analogy at the end was perfect. Great video!
7:04 No, that's Damon Gant.
And I'm glad he's finally in a fighting game.
I feel like Soul Calibur 6 has done exactly this in a complex and wonderful fashion.
The game feels far, far more accessible than other fighters like T7 or SFV. On the surface of the recent beta, it retains huge character depth in decision making and matchups, and also skill ceilings are still high. Other titles can possibly (and did in my case) alienate a lot of newer people who teeter on the edge of desiring to get better yet struggling to find realistic stepping stones to improvement without an absolute truckload of time in "the lab" repeating inputs over and over until ingrained in my head. All this reduction in input-proficiency while ensuring that better players handily win through the game making space for a skilled individual to triumph AND while allowing difficult inputs to remain but not to be paramount since ridiculous 70%+ juggle combos aren't really a thing.
I love it.
To perform most of what your character does isn't particularly difficult, but to enable your character to run circles around the opponent, mind-gaming them and successfully baiting and/or punishing them is so satisfying but is at the core of what makes the game difficult. This is also part of the reason why losing also feels satisfying. You know you can do what they can do and without much trouble or a decade in labs, but the finesse an opponent can execute their onslaught is impressive and immediately easy to perceive. You know they've studied what, where, when and how, not just an endless string of inputs created after dancing around for most of the match looking for a launcher/poke.
I don't mean this to dismiss other fighting games which have this more difficult wall in front of them, but as someone who has been out of fighting games for 15 years and only recently fallen back in love with them thanks to this new accessibility, I can say it gives me inspiration to actually practice because the steps aren't so much any easier overall to become a lot, lot better. Instead they're so much easier to become aware of whether or not you see it from yourself or your opponent.
BEST CHANNEL EVER!!!
I barely play fighting games and yet your videos are hyper interesting!
Purchased fantasy strike last week. Totally agree with you. Hopefully this will open up the genre to many others. Great video
"The worst your decision will become"
-hovers over buying No Man's Sky
Ok that was funny
"worse", but sure.
Fantasy strike has gotten a huge glowup
This is exactly what fantasy strike did for me. Excellent analogy. That game gave me the desire to build a more complex microscope, and look further into the cosmos of fighting games. Love the content.
Making a game easy to follow is key to viewers and esport growth. A game that displays its intentionality in an easy to discern but stylish way will receive the greatest praise from the new fan.
I'm kind of disappointed Blazblue and Guilty Gear's stylish systems were not mentioned. While being flawed, these are relevant to the subject at hand.
Stylish system for Blazblue just confused me. I felt more in control with the default setup. If I remember correctly, it also removes certain options so players who use it effective handicap themselves.
Yeah, I'm a total noob at fighting games, but simply fell in love with the GG franchise and using the "Stylish" mode would feel like a betrayal... :/
its frowned upon if you want to be taken seriously of course, but if you're using it most players are going to understand you're not good and just want to have fun.
its more for those ppl who like to mash the buttons, not really for ppl try to get good.
Because people hate BB over GG, but still dislike GG over older fighters.
Making new accessible games is awesome! Like what with fantasy strike is doing.
Making existing games/franchises more “accessible” while not to be written off entirely, needs to be done much more carefully than it seems like it’s been done so far. Accessibility at the cost of depth, (in my opinion) in any of the three major areas that you mention is not worth it.
I'm making a fighting game for my final year project at university, and I'm in the process of analysing existing products. Divekick is a very intriguing pick and I think I'll do a lot of analysis of it, because it is so simple and my game is not focused on depth but just being a game, and also AI opponents. It really strips back all the fighting of the fighting genre, but remains fun and challenging, and still somewhat deep.
There was this old fighting game I really like to play on my PC in the late 90s that only used the joystick and one button. It was pretty deep for one button. Basically if you used the joystick without the button held you moved like in most fighting games, however if you were holding the button pushing any of the 8 directions produced a different attack.
The attacks were different based on if you were in the air, standing, or crouching. It lead to some interesting game play for example holding down and tapping the attack button was different from holding the attack button and then tapping down. Likewise if you held down to crouch, then pressed the attack button, then tapped down it was a third different thing.
Everyone still had super moves because you might have that while standing, holding the attack button and pushing up and forward was a dragon punch. Moves were super easy to pull off but there were a surprising number of varieties you could do with such a simple input scheme.
I really wish I could remember the name of it, because it seems to fit exactly the discussion you are having in this video.
honestly, I've always found fighting games fun ... untill i exit the group of 2 other friends tht are around my level, then it feels like a god came down just to make my life miserable
against my friends i can play with intent, and have a match tht can go either way, but i can't get variety because as soon as i try i get someone who seems to know all the awnsers and wont give me a chance. And this makes it feel like it's impossible to get into, so needless to say, id love to find a fighting game with a low skill floor allowing me to play casually with the world, and a high skill ceiling so there's actually a community
Git gud scrub
JK
just play smash brudda
try playing games with matchmaking, competitive games will always have this skill gap.
i feel like with all the rumors of marvel infinite inputs and combos being easier it might create a disconnect and a separation between the 2 games like the separation between melee and smash 4 players
What's the game in between that capcom tries to kill off like nintendo tries to kill off PM?
Some Mugen fan made game with 10x more content than infinite
That already happened with the MvC2 scene. A bunch of MvC2 players hated MvC3 so they didn't play it and just stuck with MvC2. Happens with most games that change a lot between entries, it's very pronounced in the SF community. ST and Third Strike still have people who play just them even now and SF4 is still getting side tournaments at events. Even outside of the Capcom games, there are Guilty Gear fans who don't like Xrd and just stuck with AC+R.
It happens with any series that fundamentally changes between entries.
Nobody starts Smash understanding how the game is played at higher levels. They start out mashing the best attacks and frantically trying to knock the opponent off the stage. People seem to think having 1-button specials somehow makes Smash and Fantasy Strike achieve the same thing. FS is miles ahead of Smash when it comes to accessibility.
IMHO that deviation from the norm is what makes or breaks a sequel. Fans of the old game don't have to buy a new one, if the last one is still mechanically good with a healthy community, while the new one may attract crowds from both directions of the scale.
Look at the latest Tekken, all the fancy stuff they've done to improve it but it is still the same core game. Learning curve is what usually breaks it for me. Like, it's easier to learn the mechanics and a character in Tekken, Smash Bros, than in, say, Street Fighter.
Lowering the bar of entry is acceptable if it makes the game more fun/fluent (Dota vs Hots). Players who can frame read in SF will surely be able to do so in other games, thus gaining a competitive edge.
Personally, I like GG's and especially BlazBlue's for their stories, art-style and unique characters - yet - even in the modes where you learn your combos I wasn't able to execute most of the advanced moves (ref.: 4:48) aaaand the community is almost non-existent on PS4 (Blazblue, EU east).
This was a pretty fun episode, thanks for telling me about fantasy strike too.
Your analysis videos are the best thing on TH-cam
tekken is the game
hard to master
easy to play when learned
and only 4 button controls
with
really fucking large movesets and lots of different mechanics.
its hard to master but super fun to play
I think Smash Bros. is like that but better.
how is arms even considered a 2d fighting game?
Smash is nowhere close to as difficult as Tekken, and it's trash.
Clay White Thompson lmao tekken is a joke compared to melee
Doubt you've ever tried to get good at Tekken if you say that.
Very well done video 🙌🏽
This entire channel is excellent, what the hell, this is great content
Excellent video. I feel like I have something to show to people who don't play fighting games and to those who want to learn more about the genre.
The fighting game genre must learn....take chess, very accessible but almost impossible to master. The problem is control systems. Many fighting games have what seems simple controls but can have difficult directional and buttons inputs to learn, especially if your unfamiliar to the fighting game genre. Time and effort is needed to learn the control systems (before you can even get into game mechanics). What is needed is more accessible/quick to pick up and play/easy to learn control systems that don't damage the game mechanics. It can be done. I think this could help new comers to the fighting game genre, yes the hardcore fans will not like change but the fighting game genre needs to evolve. The fighting game genre needs to stay with the times, the arcade is dead and home console rules and that's where it will shine. The fighting game genre needs to reach this big home console audience by becoming more accessible.
Instead of changing existing titles, making new ones would be better. The ones that stayed (SF, Tekken, Guilty Gear) are still here because those that played them liked how the game is. Suddenly changing that would just be horrible to the established community.
We should instead give the accessibility to new games. Instead of forcing existing games to be easier, we should leave it be for those who are dedicated and desire the complexity while creating a new game to have that accessibility for newcomers.
A variety is good.
Arcsys has been doing this for a while. Guilty gear and blaz blue are notorious for their execution but they are still beloved while games like cross tag and Grandblue are more accessible and easier for those who want to try the genre out.
Dont force games to be the same.
I'm still sad about Rising Thunder
Alex Franco and now we might get a rising thunder reskinned as league of legend fighting game.
Started playing fantasy strike after watching this video a couple of months back
Got master ranking of 299 yesterday
Thanks n awesome content
Thanks for this video i was thinking of creating a simple fighting game for android with only one button and a d-pad. This gave me decent ideas on what else i should do!
Fantasy Strike may get me back into fighting games. Rising Thunder was going to do that, but RIOT Games had to go and ruin everyone's fun. A major hurdle with most fighting games is whether or not you start when the game launches. The larger the window between launch and when you start playing exponentially increases the amount of information/matchups/tech/etc. you'll need to memorize. So you're left with 2 options: 1) Get in on the ground floor and help build that encyclopedia of information with the community, 2) Find a simpler game that won't punish you for not knowing everything on day 1.
This is why I want Fantasy Strike to succeed.
Oh god, Fantasy Strike is a game I've been looking for for the last few weeks! How come Steam has never recommended it to me? And there is even a macOS version!
Thanks for actually teaching me what Junpei does.
There's not enough videos on P4AU, and a lot less guides. Moopoke doesn't even do guides and he plays that game religiously.
To say I was initially just looking for some divekick footage since it's free on ps4 this mounth..
(and your channel made me realize I definitely loved tekken 7 music ; this video in particular made me realize I love even more jazzy version x') )