Companions
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- I talk about my thoughts on companions and how they should be designed in computer RPGs.
p.s. in addition to the dog snoring under the desk and a garbage truck going by outside, you can also hear a windows pop-up at four minutes into the video. I was going to edit it out, but I left it in. - เกม
Ah yes, companions. Those who block doorways.
Unstoppable force (The Courier) VS immovable object (Rex)
Thanks Ian
Really find so weird.
Like it's not that hard to make them stop doing that.
If an NPC stops moving, do a check for it's hexagonal neighbors. If it only has four neighbors, check for if the two missing are on the same cubic axis.
@@PhilipPetrunak I mean... in most game engines, it's 2-5 lines of code to make it so the mouse cursor is hidden during cutscenes, but they're still all over the place
Aka why i always take the lone wanderer perk in fo4
Windows is Tim's companion, and it sometimes interjects during the dialog.
Windows is the companion we made along the way
RIP windows xp you will be missed
Windows (or macOS) is a companion you can never fully control and often gets in your way...that's why I prefer Linux. 😉🐧💻
@@DavidCDrake I play video games so I prefer windows. As someone who started with MS DOS though I do miss the feeling of control. I absolutely hated W95 when it came out because it felt so restrictive.
@@blacxthornE Yeah, I hear ya! 😁
"Thanks Windows" seems like a running gag now!
1000%
Since WIndows 2000.
The companion cube of Portal is the best companion.
It will not threaten to stab you, and in fact it cannot speak
I liked companions in Fallout 4 because they had barks about every location you visit (some more generic than others but still)
Yeah they really did them great in Fallout 4. Great voice acting, lots of story and lines.
Yep, those were great. Nick Valentine might even be my favourite companion in all of the Fallout series, together with Raul and ED-E from New Vegas.
@@PedroGomes-cx7ku danny trejo did such a great job on raul for sure. My favorite companion in any Fallout game is either Sulik or Gage. But i really, really like a lot of them. Ede, Piper, Raul, Boone, Cait, Curie, MaCready, Longfellow, Valentine and Codsworth are all so fantastic.
They definitely feel more alive, my issue with Fallout 4 companion is they didn't feel different outside 1 specific ability. In FNV some companions were damn near useless with certain weapon types and if I'm not mistaken not all could wear power armor
@@R-YR29 everyone can wear power armor except lily, rex and ede.
There are two types of companions:
Those who block doorways
Those who block bullets
I think companions in first person games usually benefit from a one-button control, just a single ping to say walk here, interact with this, shoot this enemy, etc. Kind of like how pings work in multiplayer shooters except they actually listen lol
The problem with that is you can only really point at specific objectives, and can't really affect their more general behaviors. It's a bit long in the tooth, but I'd point to the AI commands in Ace Combat 5 as a good sort of middle-ground: you basically only have four orders (tied to the D-Pad) you can issue: one's a toggle to allow/disallow allies from using their special weapons; one is for them to just go wild attacking enemies; one is for everyone to spread out; and one is for everyone to gather up near you.
In a typical first-person RPG you could swap out that special weapon toggle for your one-button command pointing at specific tasks (go here, attack this, use that); then for the three general behaviors they could be something like, "stay close and cover me, " "spread out and flank," and I dunno... "use you judgement?" With the latter maybe being unique to each companion? EG a melee companion'd just run into the thick of things; a sniper companion might pull back and stay in a fixed location until combat is over, etc.
It's not an RPG, but you could take an in-depth command system from a game like Operation Flashpoint (ArmA: Cold War Crisis) even though I'm referencing a super old game so there's probably a newer, better system out there. But it had a whole menu of radio commands you could issue to your squad to get them to interact with nearly everything in a map. That works because it's a PC game so you have the whole keyboard available, but it wouldn't be too hard to make it into menus and sub-menus with a controller.
@@lhfirex With the advent of AI maybe we can finally get a way to program companions that works better and is more intuitive. I see a future where we can just talk to companions and tell them what to do with voice commands.
“Companion, shoot that enemy!”
*the companion suddenly stands up from cover, walks through the firing line to stand directly beside the enemy you pinged*
I think it works great with Atreus from God of War.
I have to say romancing a foul-mouthed Irish gal by fast-traveling in my shorts in Fallout4 was an unexpectedly fun and funny experience that I will remember.
Hi Tim, it’s me, Windows.
One game I think impelemented Companions well was Wasteland 3 as you have a squad and each party member can specalize in a skill, so you have oneguy for hacking, one for lockpicking etc... It really made having a party feel meaningful imo.
I can hear your dog snorting in the background. It's very atmospheric.
I have never really thought about it concisely before, but you hit one of my largest gripes - when the game forces you to play a character other than the main character, or forces a specific character into the party. There have been games in the past that forced the player to play a portion of the game as a side-character that I did not like, and have stopped playing the game due to that. I prefer games that have the main character as a blank slate. I despise when the character I am playing makes a decision, that I would not have chose, without my input. Horror games in general are basically off the table for me because of this, as well as a bunch of action-rpg style games.
You didn't talk about it, but I really liked that you had leadership skills in the outer worlds. My favorite though was in new Vegas, having higher charisma increased the damage of your companions. It gave you a chose of how independent you wanted your pc to be as a personality. It also, made things like speech feel less useless, except for a few checks you might get once every hour or so in the game.
I think it's interesting how Larian does companions in DOS2 and BG3. The companions have their backgrounds and their default builds reflect that, but you can respec them to be completely different so you don't run into the issue of "I like this character but their build is redundant with my player character so it doesn't make sense to have them in my party".
I've fond memories of immediately hacking into my new savegames of Baldur's Gate / Baldur's Gate 2 to change characters' classes / builds to something I liked better.
It's a great feature!
Also, for some characters, I feel like it's practically expected you're supposed to do it.
The best example I can give is Minsc, whose default Ranger package (including six basic Ability Scores) doesn't even remotely fit what we know about him at all. It really feels like you're expected to rebuild him to what each individual player personally feels is the most accurate 5th edition rendition of his character (since he has only appears in past games with quite different rules).
And, by the time you encounter Minsc relatively late in the game, you would already be very familiar with BG3's 5th ed based character system.
I yield to none!
in Dos2 their build isn't tied to their story. in BG3 it is.
Not a fan tbh, though BG3 is still pretty great. I suppose it's possible to ignore the feature but mostly makes me feel like I have to min/max everyone not just my main. They're (almost) all lvl 1 when you get them so it's not like you don't have plenty of customization options.
I loved Arcanum's companions, especially the voice actor ones, Virgil, Magnus and Raven were really good - my first time playing Arcanum had the funniest bi-polar Virgil ever, turned hostile when I accidentally threw a newspaper in his face, renders himself unconscious trying to heal me while my tech aptitude was too high, ah memories.
Planescape had the best companions all time. Still can't get over how the Nameless One treated his companions. Just so much great lore.
Only issue is Valhior. Very intresting concept for a character, but comes waaay too late into the game and has a fraction of dialoges and interaction that other companions have.
@@ComissarYarrick Yeah.. I actually missed him my first playthrough I think.
Speaking of companion quests, I am still not over Sulik never finding his sister.
Ever played Killapp's Fallout Restoration Project?
I always prefer controllable companions, but mostly not through real-time micro-management but by giving instructions that they follow until told otherwise. I like the advanced system in the first Dragon Age where you can instruct them to act differently depending on the situation, in effect creating if conditions for their actions. It's a lot of fun.
Regarding the point about companion romance, I think it can sometimes be useful to separate "companion romance in RPGs as a concept" from "the current default format of companion romance in RPGs". For discussion purposes, we could refer to the current default format (and its issues mentioned in this video) as "the BioWare formula", but "the BioWare formula" is not the only time romance pops up around RPG companions across games as a medium -- for a concrete example, Planescape Torment's characterization of the protagonist's past relationships gives a *very* interesting layer of complication to the moment where it asks the player "do you or do you not kiss back Annah?"
Even though it skews more to the action side of things, I've always liked the variety and flexibility dragon's dogma offered through it's pawns
Recently I've been playing "Pathfinder: Kingmaker" and after hearing you the past few videos I feel like you would like that game quite a bit, lol. The companions in the game generally work the way you described here, which I also find pretty cool.
+1 for kingmaker.. Makes me miss Birthright, an old AD&D module.. A lot of folks will recommend the sequel pathfinder game, but for me those characters just didn't land. kingmaker is the one
yet another fulfillment of "man i wish there was a tim cain video about this"
Probably my #1 favorite inter-companion interaction was in Pillars when Edér was asking if it's ok to pet Sagani's fox, then later on they're talking about the wound from petting the fox 😂
You are a great gift to the community by your contributions, thank you for your contributions (your videos) and all the work you have done on your games. Your work will be repaid in kind
Loved the companions in Pillars (mostly)
I got into Outer Worlds and I like companions there a lot (namely Parvati). They don't get in the way too much and you don't have to control them all the time but they intervene when it's important quest stage (like when I quicksaved and tried to kill that guy in charge of Edgewater while doing the deserters quest :D). And if you want you can ask them all the questions about them while on the spaceship
its weird, but ive been playing Stranded Alien Dawn and got hooked on it. Its a Rimworld-like, but had no idea it was until too late(30 hours deep), and i never knew how much of an idea generator these games are on top of the journey towards automation. I just love all the "drama" they involve themselves in while im slowly reaching towards my main goal.
Its just so much color for the characters and it really makes me think about how those interactions would go with diligent care and effort towards the weird breakups and love triangles that happen naturally in-game.
Thanks for mentioning the romance part. I remember that during the Fig campaign for Pillars 2 there was some talk about romancing, whether it should be implemented and how and while it gave me high hopes I feel some of the companions came off quite horny (Serafen and Tekehu!).
I realized that I didn't really miss romance in the first game and I quite like how companion quests help describe the world and its themes (Sagani!), I really liked Eder's quest - even though it felt "unfinished" and kinda depressing, it really fit the game and its themes - I love how at some points the game never explicitly states the truth, but you can try to guess it (but you'll never know for sure), I also love how it tends to ponder whether stuff has have have meaning and what it means for us if it just doesn't. Also, Eder wears my favorite piece of original equip (in any game ever) - his armor - the thought that his brother might be still looking after him still makes me teary-eyed. Or maybe it wasn't his brother but Eothas! I guess we'll never know. Aaand the armor works just perfectly with him as a tank. And you can upgrade it and use it forever. I think it's brilliant.
But I'm getting too off topic. Great video, thanks!
aw, you should have worn a Nuka Cola shirt :)
Also, an honorable mention to the greatest companion of all games. Ian from Fallout, who on the pro side can carry EVERYTHING for you but on the con side will shoot you in the back on burst mode.
Kinda agre...but really nuka cola and coca cola somehow they seem connected...
Oh yes, companions in crpgs. So crucial element, suprisnigly hard to done right ( tho also suprisingly hard to fubar completly, as long as basics are done right ). Think about it - on top of all that Tim said in this video there are also design dilemas like :
- Are companions respecable ? Can they change class/skills at will, not at all, or only under certain conditions (like doing personal quest )
- How spaced are companions in story/world of the game. Are they all front loaded (BG2 does this IMHO really well), or some can be only added late in the game ( wich runs the risk of player not wanting to mess with their already tried & tested party )
- Are some companions mutaly exclusive or blocked by some other factor ( like handmaieden/disciple and Mira/Hanharr in KoTR2 ). This limits player choice, but also encurages replayability
- Do companions ( especialy in class based systems ) have their own unique powers/skills/gear, exclusive to them, even if the player have same class as them ?
And probably many more
I like how Fallout 2 improved on the companions control and pretty much added things Tim already wanted for Fallout, but then modded Fallout and 2 with Restoration patch are still the greatest old RPGs to me.
In Fallout 2 it is especially useful to give everyone ranged weapons (Sulik is really good with 223 pistol) and tell them to stay close both in combat and movement, they mostly only go where you go for tactical positioning or running away or to swarm the enemy, it is always fun.
Thanks for talking about the romance stuff.
I like it when it fits , for example I somewhat think mass effect had really good tied in the way you start to become interested in each other.
I always thought while you can hit on all those people it is a tool to include more people and canonically you grew close to all of them but only with one you fell in love and the other never had the feelings despite the Dialog options being there.
But recently I played Rogue Trader and it was really weird to me how you can romance so many different people in a setting where everything is grim and dark and all hope is lost.
And especially how it broke the character writing for some.
You had this Alien Woman who literally calls you monkey because you are primitive to them and how you are just barely above an animal to her just so you can romance her in the first private conversation you have with her.
I sat there and realized I might not be horny enough to understand how that would work but it felt to me sooo out of place I couldnt understand how they would do that other than as a 'thirst-trap' for horny people.
That's pretty weird, since I believe the some studio that made the Pathfinder CRPGs also made Rogue Trader. In Pathfinder: Kingmaker the companions that can be romanced atleast feel somewhat believable and takes some time before it happens, (Well atleast a few of them, some are more blatant and in your face.)
You can try to romance the Eldar but she will hate you for it. She really doesn't like humans and won't even hold your hand. I kinda liked that in the sense that it felt fresh (compared to other games). The conclusion of her romance is quite platonic and asexual, you could even say that you just become friends - but the game communicates well that she doesn't let people get close to her, so it does feel special. Kinda missed that in BG 3, where everyone is just horny when you just want a friend/bro (looking at you Gale).
The greatest time I have ever had with companions was while playing Persona 3 FES. All the companions are AI-driven and it added a lot of personality to the characters. It was also a lot of fun managing your team, giving them orders and helping, when they got into trouble. This really reflected the core idea of the main character, I think. To be a good leader and responsible for the people that depend on you.
Feels completely different to play Portable version of the game, where you can control all the characters. While I appreciate the agency, I think that sometimes it can take away from a game some portion of fun or narrative ideas.
I think my first experience with companions was either The Crescent Hawks Inception or The Lost Vikings. They made it feel as if Eric was the lead but my "main character" in my brain was Baleog because he had the weapons. Yet you couldn't obviously, even play the game without constantly switching between the three characters. Of course then there was Hard Nova, and Strike Force. Thing is, after you got those companions in your party, sure their one higher skill than others allowed you to progress, but then that's it. Eventually, everyone could play the roll and the companion was just part of the collective group. I think this same mentality was placed into Star Ward The Old Republic. I really really liked the companions you made in the game and each one really felt like their own individual. But first, and this is going back a long time, When it came to the companions Special "I got to do this somewhere else, all by myself " mission and they returned to tell me, I was like MAN! I wanted to be there, I wanted to at least see them do all this and even experience that story and get involved in it. But no. That was a huge bummer to me and felt like having a companion with such a background was wasted. Later on, each companion could take the role specific to other characters you found. ANYONE could be the Tank ANYONE could be the healer or Additional DPS. With crafting and skill sets becoming a total mess, i just gave up on the game because the fundamental part I loved, The companions, their uniqueness and specific rolls, were taken away from me. My main character was STILL the focus, but in a massive universe, it wasn't just always about me.
Now I've never played a fallout game, but I remember your companions always got killed or got you killed.
I have an idea (not sure if any game does this) that to limit the amount of companions you have is to make it where some companions hate or dislike each other and will not join you if you have that companion.
Here's an example I made up. One companion loves one faction while hates the other faction, but you a companion who is a member of that faction that the other companion hates so the other companion doesn't join you. And maybe you can have both companions if you can convince them to pretend the other one doesn't exist and as long as you don't piss off either of them.
That's my idea anyway.
This is something I wish modders thought about a little more. I absolutely love using modded companions for games like Skyrim, but I don’t need them to all be in love with my character. Sometimes I want to roleplay a character that’s an old warrior, maybe someone that is dealing with grief. If my only options for a companion are people being sarcastic and flirty, I’m better off without companions entirely.
Rolling up with a posse in arcanum is pretty funny. I did my first playthrough with Virgil, Sogg, Jayna, Magnus, Gar, Raven, and Dog.
I love how in Kotor 1 your companions would talk to each other and in some instances argue and be hostile. An example would be Canderous, he was a mandalorian and his people attacked and destroyed the planet of one of your other party members so there was always this tension and hostility when you had both with you.
Thank you for the video!
Regarding companion gameplay and the "cover the bases" property of a well designed companion system: Do you believe that the player should be able to build a party that can unlock all the possible solutions for quests? E.g. should the player controlled party always have at least one character with a skill/trait at max value, with the right affiliations, other other prerequisites to use a specific solution? It offers the players more choices but also could harm replayability (if all paths are open to the party).
Anyhow, thank you again for all your work on these! Have a great day!
“Thanks Windows!” Hahahahaha Great video, Tim! Cheers from Brazil!
Hey Tim, there is an aspect of companions that you didn't touch on that I'd like to hear your opinion on.
That is the players influence over the personality and outcomes of the companions storyline.
Using two examples from the Pathfinder game Wrath of the Righteous, you have one companion who you can steer towards becoming good or going back to being pure evil by your interactions with them. Alternatively you have a companion who is a sociopath who no matter what will always end the story as one, while you can seem like you make progress, in the end they see you as a threat and you either support their desires or you put them down.
Do you think companions should be influenced by player characters or do you prefer their personalities be a core part of them that the player has to accept or just leave them behind?
Such a good topic! Thanks for the video.
Always liked Virgil. Good arc and interesting to talk to. Really anchored Arcanum for me. How was Virgil developed? And was the intent always to be the player's anchor to the world? Or was that just my experience.
Something that I like about the companions/characters in Baldur's Gate 3 is that they all have a common thread in the narrative and also have their own stories.
Hey Tim, very cool video! I was thinking about using companions to win in a game and was wondering:
How do you mechanically support a full-speech playthrough? You mention supporting that kind of playthrough in all of your RPGs, but what goes into the mechanics of that? Is it just good writing? How do you support the speech skill? Is there anything that goes into avoiding failing a check by pure chance? I see people complain about that last one the most, where you do the right answer and then fail the talking route by pure RNG. Would love your thoughts on making a good speech playthrough and speech mechanics!
You would probably like this video: th-cam.com/video/AvEltSS8U1k/w-d-xo.html
@@CainOnGames aha! There's the keywords I couldn't find when I searched for it, thanks for pointing that one out!
Companions are something I really love in my games, they really impact my enjoyment of the game.
The real companions were the friends we made along the way.
Hey Tim, what do you think is the right number of factions to have in a game? Should all of the factions be playable? And if you make a faction with a specific ideology or goal, would you purposefully make another faction to go against them and or be their opposite?
For companions I hardly ever use them, except for BG3. The first time I was actually interested in learning about and doing quest for my companions. Besides that they usually always seem to get in my way. They never really fit to how I want to role play with my character. They don’t really add anything to my characters story. So I usually just stay away from using them.
I think it's interesting that, when discussing romance, your first impulse was to describe it as requiring NPCs to hit on the player. Reminds me of BG3 where they do just that -- and, like you said, if feels weird. But *WHY* is it that the NPCs have to initiate the romances in the first place? It strikes me that pretty much every RPG I've played with romances in it has those romances begin with NPCs flirting with the PC -- why can't everyone just be aro/ace until or unless the player initiates something?
Is there any particular reason, do you think, why romances are typically designed this way?
The main reason companions initiate romance is player discovery. If you spend a lot of time (i.e. a lot of money) making a feature, you want to player to interact with it. Even more, the person/company paying you wants that feature used, otherwise their money was “wasted”. That’s why most features, whether it’s romance or crafting or base building, is put directly into the player’s path so they know it’s there and interact with it.
@@CainOnGames It's sad the people with the money have such little faith in peoples intelligence and curiosity, it seems to ruin a lot of art and entertainment.
@@RancidZombieGuts I don't think it's a "people with the money" problem. It really hurts when people completely miss out on something you put a lot of effort into because you didn't point it out. Indie games and game mods do this kind of thing too.
@@ChadVulpes People always find hidden things in games though, even if a lot of people don't find everything straight away, lots of people will, and finding it themselves will make it feel more special, rather than a checklist of all the content the game has because it blatantly points everything out to you.
@@ChadVulpesAnd that applies to other things in games too. My first thought is Story/quest branches that only really happen after seeing most of the content. Which is understandable, if disappointing.
Every RPG I play i find myself wishing it had a companion system like Mass Effect.
Two at a time, good selection, inter-companion banter and good environment comments it really brought the games to life for me and now I haven't been able to look at other games the same since.
Glad you mentioned the companion romance issue. I'm on the same page.
IMO, the ideal number of companions is 2-3 times the number of companion "slots" you have. So in a game with a party size of 4 (PC + 3 companions), the ideal number would be 6-9. In general, the more ways there are for companions to die or leave the party, the closer to the top of that range the number should be.
How do you feel about DEGREES of playability for companions? You can give them orders VS you can switch to controlling them entirely?
Speaking about sequels, how to you handle choosing how a "branch" becomes canon. For example, Ian and Dogmeat dying on FO1
I've got a video coming up in a few weeks on canonical endings that addresses that issue.
Some of my fondest memories are dealing with the unexpected results of fallout 2 companions decisions in combat.
No marcus the bandit has 3 health and is standing beside some farmers, you dont need to use your mingun.
Lol your fault for having him use a minigun mate
>Marcus proceeds to minigun the bandit, as well as Myron, who's standing behind him
Alright, Marcus, you got me this time.😏
@@fredrik3880 true but I don't have the heart to take it off him.
@@dylanramsey5817 exactly. Swings and roundabouts 😂
@@brochampe-se9fq lol i hear you.
Hi Tim have you considered doing a video on your ideas/concepts for games that never came to fruition
If you can stand watching bleary-eyed grungy Tim, I talk about some of my half-finished games (I call them toys) here: th-cam.com/video/mHMFG8uvOb0/w-d-xo.html
@@CainOnGames thanks Tim
I really like this video. I am going thorough Fallout 4 right now and i found out that this is what i am doing. I love having Dogmeat with me in general, but when i was checking out the part about the underground i had Valentine. I just headed to the Institute and i went to take Piper with me because she has a real interest in the Institute - but then she got left behind. 😄 *** I have enjoyed the 'feedback' of "Soandso liked that' or disliked that. I am playing my character the way i want to, but i am getting to learn about these companions this way.
This is unrelated to the video, but I wanted to say it somewhere.
From about 2021 to about 6 months ago, I went through a bad time in my life. Fallout: New Vegas helped me keep it together through that time, being at times my only source of mental comfort. It helped me get through that time, and I think its the only reason I'm still alive. I want to thank you for making the game that saved me.
Thanks for the advice on video game development as well, I'm using it a lot in a dnd campaign. It's not entirely applicable, but it's really nice to have!
I don't think he was involved in that xD
but it's still nice you found comfort in such a great game
F:NV was directed by Josh Sawyer, I don't think Tim worked on it.
Hey Tim, long time watcher, first time commenting.
Curious about your opinion regarding the Metro & STALKER post-apocalyptical universes, any pros & cons or any highlights worth mentioning from those worlds. Sorry if the subject was mentioned before and thank you for your time.
Take care.
Tim do you enjoy the relationship mechanics in games like The Sims?
Whenever I need to make an evil decision to kill a nice poor defenseless character, I usually command my companion to do the kill so that my own hands stay clean.
Regarding balance for solo vs full party play, aside from the implicit incentive of XP/gold/loot splitting letting you pour more power progression into one character (I was personally never a fan of party XP splitting), Larian had an interesting take in Divinity: Original Sin 1 and 2 with the Lone Wolf perk you could get on characters that would apply major bonuses, including to the action points to equalize the action economy, when those characters were currently in a 1 or 2 person party. That ended up making Lone Wolf overpowered but I think that was more a tuning issue with the magnitude of the bonuses, and I did like the general idea of what they were going for. E.g. even if you wanted to keep combat balance and action economy much more intact than Lone Wolf did, you could let solo characters diversify their skill set while still capping their vertical progression in any one skill at a similar level to before. And in combat you can partly rely on the action economy to counterbalance the power of such a diversified solo character since if you use an action point for one thing (backstab), you can't use it for another thing (cast a spell).
I always use them, I like companions, I like the banter with and between them but mostly because of their reactions, they're an extension of the world, and the first thing I do is to force click'em (thank you warcraft 2).
In Pillars1 there's an interaction with Pallegina, and don't remember if after the click mayhem of between Kana where she starts to...sing!? I love companions.
I like to manage them, their inventory and tailoring their build, I would never play a cleric, companion...that's your job!
I would never play dwarves, and here you go Sagani in Pillars, my preferred companion ever.
I liked the uncontrollable companions, made things interesting
Please don't edit out the Windows pop-up noises... now my best friend and I say, "Thank you, Windows," every time our computers make noise because of you!
Door Stuck!
I think it's perfectly okay to not balance for solo play. Many solo players enjoy the challenge, or prefer stealth, which is difficult with companions anyway. I think as long as its not overbearing, its ok to have solo play be difficult.
How WOULD you do stealth with companions? Ive seen a few approaches, but do you have any wisdom or considerations to share on the matter?
Raven in Arcanum was done well- I blundered into a romance option with her on a 4th playthrough, I had no idea it even existed.
Virgil is still my all time favourite RPG companion. Though, to be honest, I don't play much of anything anymore.
6:56 - Companions talking with each other. I remember being totally blown away when getting in a lift in Mass Effect 1 with Garrus and Wrex and listening to them jab at each other because of what the Taurens were responsible for. Immersion +100. As for romancing, I couldn't agree more with the sentiment of "jeez, everyone is so horny..." It's jarring to think that everyone who follows you finds your character that sexy. This is the realm for mods imo; romancing characters that have been originally intended to not become romance options for players.
Hello Tim.
You've said you are semi-retired. I am curious, if Bethesda gave you the opportunity to make another Fallout game (not necessarily a first person one) would you do it?
PS: I have just started my very first Fallout run today and am enjoying it quite a bit!
I personally feel like tactical squad-based shooters like Ready or Not or classic Rainbow Six are probably the best way to handle companion control as a first person game. I guess the problem is that it's still a middle ground between normal AI companions and controllable ones with twice the work.
nice, new video!!
I usually like to play solo if the game allows it (especially when companions make the game too easy, like in Skyrim). My exception is dogmeat 🐕.
My favorite companion system ever in a first person game is New Veags with the JIP C&C mod. I can make EVERYONE stop and wait by holding a button without the game pausing. No dialog tree, no intrusive menu.
I can go through the dungeon myself without anyone getting in the way or making stealth harder or saying some stupid quip after I pick something up.
It's not perfect obviously since i would like them to join me, but unless companions become life-like they will always be combersome in first person games. To me anyway.
You say you should have more companion choices than companions you bring with you, which I agree with, but I really dislike "shelved" companions. I often end up always using the same companions, unless the game gives me incentive to rotate them (as I can rotate wounded bros in Battle Brothers). This shelf of unused companions usually results in problems when suddenly their quest comes into play when you almost forgot about them (as in BG3, if you forget about Wyll and don't care about him, things happen but I really couldn't care less). If companions actually leave instead of being shelved, I think it's way better (Colony Ship kind of does that for instance).
Do you maybe know why there are no Rogue companions in the Pillars of Eternity?
Hi Tim, I'm a college sophmore currently working on my Comp Sci degree and looking to enter the games industry after I graduate. What is the one biggest piece of advice that you would give me?
There are over 250 videos on the channel to watch for the answer...
Make a demo.
Thanks Tim! @@CainOnGames
I noticed you didn't talk about evil companions, Often in games a good/neutral playthrough there are 6 or so companions to choose from but if you are doing an evil playthrough there is normally only one and it makes evil playthroughs feel less fleshed out. Evil playthroughs also tend to lack unique quests and it feels like it was an afterthought. Is this due to budget, time, analytics (few people want to do evil playthroughs), lack of ability of the developer to put themselves in the shoes of an evil character, or something else?
I think it honestly comes down alot to the fact, most people are not going to choose the "evil" route compared to the "good guy" route. So unless the game is entirely about playing the bad guys, such as Dungeon Keeper. It is kind of a wasted investment of resources to put just as much focus on a much more niche path of play, compared to the overall more played path. That's just how I see it atleast.
@@CaptmagiKono Then I guess you need to ask is an RPG that doesn't support an evil playthrough really an RPG?
@@CaptmagiKonothis isn't an rpg but evil playthroughs in dishonored are alot of fun because rampaging in that game is alot of fun
I really like the way cyberpunk 2077 handled romance. It was really well integrated into the quest structures. I was really happy with that.
I also wish that New Vegas had kept some more of its romance features like the side quest with Cass, fleshed Lucy out more, arcade, or made Sarah more fleshed out. Same thing for female protags too. I guess theres a lot that would have to change but it would have added some more depth to characters, I think.
I think it matters a lot more that they are well written than any of the things you have brought up. I'm inclined to take a well written companion with me even if they suck at combat. As for being essential I think this is also a case of writing, with sufficient justification for them to be there, and not just forcing the pc to yes man, but having extremely bad consequences for turning them down or killing them, for example if you kill the priest that can banish the demon you'll fight a buffed demon.
I like how Ultima 6/7 handle companions, people all over the world from all different walks of life will join your party.
Dogmeat from Fallout 4 is my favorite! 🎉🎉🎉
I find it annoying how a lot of games don't work a narrative into why you split your party to do a quest. So there's this powerful demon in a cave and out of these seven great friends that you have, you decide to risk your life by bringing only two of them while rest sit in a tavern and suck air? There should either be systems where bringing too many companions is detrimental(too much XP being split, stat decreases etc) or be a narrative that enforces that the rest of the companions stay behind(they defend the tavern from monsters so that you have somewhere to come back to).
Most games don't keep that in mind and it really pulls me out of the experience when I happen to think about it.
Played tons of CRPGs and there are a few things that makes me detest companions; real time combat (with or without pause function, doesn't matter), giga yank threat handling (my most common example being: your healer either instantly getting all the mob aggro at the start of combat even though kept in the backline or from just 1 healing spell even though all the enemies prior were fully engaged in combat with your actual meatshields) haven't seen a CRPG that nails the balance of that yet, and not being able to customize your companion builds to a degree where a few or more become redundant or unplayable (due to alignment issue combo'd with locked class) just because you wanted your main character to be that class. Probably a few more things I can't think of right now and the video already brought up the horniness problem....
I really don't like when you can use your companions' skills to compensate for areas you're weak in. A well rounded party with characters that are strong in different ways always feels like it's equivalent to having one super character with little to no weaknesses. Dampens replayablility A LOT and not feeling your weaknesses takes away from role play for me.
Agreed
Hi Tim! It's us, everyone!
About the description: Don't edit the videos. I love how raw they are.
About the romance: I don't think it has to be necessarily horny. Bethesda has some romances (and from the games that I played, I prefer the ones in FO4), but they're pretty sex less (other than the lover's embrace effect after sleeping there is almost no notion of doing anything physical). That said, I think is possible to be more or less horny depending on the companion itself. Some may have little to no interest on sex, some may only care about sex, or some may evolve from one to the other. There are many options when it comes to companions romance, but I don't think it needs to be physical to be successful, memorable nor interesting.
anyone of them is alive the game continues, that this war of mine, thats also jagged alliance 2... please talk about them
the only real time shooter/game ive played with good controllable companions is probably mass effect 1 and 2 but thats basically the gimmick of the entire combat system / conceit. i agree tho whole heartedly
Man I really wish bethesdas writers would start watching Tim's videos.
there aren't many of those at BGS unfortunately, they just have the quest designers handling the writing too.
Idk why but i never liked companion combat, it broke immersion for me cause they are immortal and cannot die. But i always add them in my party for the story elements. So its kind of double edged sword :/ 6:40 is a very good point of why
when they have quests that instantly fail when they die, I can get past them being immortal. so much less annoying imo.
I would love to see you make a new remastered updated version of original 3 fallout games. And a new age retro game inspired by all your previous work that is a turn based game. Your Amazing Games are-Art With Style 🔥-
I think I fall somewhere in the middle when it comes to romance. I enjoy it in games when it's optional but agree it can go overboard and I don't like it shoved in my face. I like the way it was handled in Fallout 4, where you had to spend a lot of time with a companion before the "flirt" option showed up, and it was just that, an option. If you didn't want to flirt you could choose to be friends, and then that was the end of it. And iirc in Fallout New Vegas, the companions had preferences right? so it wasn't like everyone was automatically "playersexual."
BG3 ticks many of Tim's boxes almost exactly.
Bg3 has far less dialogue between companions than Bg2 sadly. I think bg2 and kotor2 do the companion interactions best to this day. Past act 1 there's barely anything in bg3 and rarely meaningful. Also, the romance in bg3 is so tucked on it hurts, especially because the vibe can contrast so much from what is happening in the core game.
@@souluss I have been playing with the mod that allows you to play with all of the characters in your party at once, and the amount of dialogue between the side-characters has been overwhelming at times. It has really fleshed out a bunch of the characters. I've had to stop of a few minutes at a time to listen to the barks throughout the game. I do partly agree with the romance stuff, though, but that seems like a big selling point for the game for a lot of people.
Some of my best Fallout memories was being obliterated by Ian via uzi. 10/10.
Yeah i agree with doing companions the way you describe it (no direct control over them, player does dialogue etc). I think the limit of companions at the same time should be 2 or 1 (combat balance). In a game like fallout new vegas or f4 1 is good. And maybe add an extra like rex or ede (small robot or dog). But in a game like Arcanum 2 people is better.
Romancing is awesome. F4 did it great.
I agree that companions should not be needed (only for their own quests). And they should not be unkillable for the player. And the game should work well without playing with companions.
I think I can hear your furry companion snoring at your feet in this video :)
Some of my favorite companions in the games ive played are:
Korgan Bloodaxe from bg 2. '
-Drink hail! Wassail fer all. I be curious friends. Im scouring fer a band of desperate men to aid me in all galant task. Ye look like you keep undertakers in a brisk trade. Have ye courage and time fer a tale?
-Me axe be bloody ready.
-I best be paid well fer this.
-Aye now this be more like it. The first to disobey me orders gets an axe through their skull.
-They do all the work. And we ends up with the gold, the book, the loot and the satisfaction of kicking their tails. Ahhh. A good day.
Lol know all these and more from memory.
Virgil, Arcanum.
-Here you are the chosen one, err the living one and i cant even remember who you are. supposed to be.
Magnus Arcanum,
People say they hear strange noises at night. Moaning, clanking of chains, muffled screaams.
Loghaire Arcanum
-As a human his first thought was, what can i use this for. When it should have been what cost is its use?
Gar Arcanum,
-Gar worlds smartest orc not professor of mathematics.
Sulik fallout 2
-What can we and i do for you?
-Grampy bone is strong spirit. Keep him close. Easier to touch his spirit that way.
-Sis went trading in another village and never come back. We and i go look for her.
-Drank like a fish. Got POed. Spirits of anger and chaos pop out and now we have to pay some coin to make it right.
So many great companions in the games ive played. So much fun.