WARNING! Aftermarket Oxygen Sensors (Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep part 1)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ต.ค. 2024
- This condition occurred from a heater circuit change. Chrysler started PWM the O2 heater instead of it being constantly energized, and most of the aftermarket sensors are designed to be on all the time! The result is a cold oxygen sensor, especially at low RPM and idle speeds. This causes elevated signal voltage (false rich conditions) and massive amounts of fuel being taken away (negative fuel trim)
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Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC.
This condition occurred from a heater circuit change. Chrysler started PWM the O2 heater instead of it being constantly energized, and most of the aftermarket sensors are designed to be on all the time! The result is a cold oxygen sensor, especially at low RPM and idle speeds. This causes elevated signal voltage (false rich conditions) and massive amounts of fuel being taken away (negative fuel trim)
Hey scanner danner big fan. My 2005 pacifica is giving me a big headache. I have a p0131 and changed my sensor with a denso and i still have this code. I checked my heater circuit at the harness and im getting a good ground but im not getting 12v with key on engine off. According to the diagram im supposed to get 12v direct from the computer. Is it toast? I have good continuity at that power wire all the way up to the computer. Thanks.
I have a 2014 ram promaster. I was getting a p219a code and had a new Bosch o2 sensor on that side. I checked for vacuum leaks , replaced coils plugs and injectors. Nothing was changing. I came across this video and replaced the o2 for oem. I noticed the fuel trims started matching. I still have to drive it to confirm if it’s fixed. Thanks for the tip. Update ****. It worked!!! P219a code gone. Thanks again!
Wish I would have found this 7 months ago before I figured this out the hard way on my 2006 Dodge Charger 3.5L. Two thumbs up!!!
thank you! at least you fixed it right?
A comment on aftermarket O2 sensors in Chrysler products. I wish I had seen this video "before" I purchased 4 Bosch sensors for my 2005 Jeep Wrangler! Bank 2, sensor 1 failed within 30 minutes, it was replaced by the parts store, then before I could get to the end of the block, Bank 1, sensor 1 failed! They have agreed to refund my $$ and I will purchase OEMs for Chrylser prods in the future!
This problem also occurs with the '91 to '01 Jeep 4.0 engines. I went through 3 or 4 Bosch O2 sensors in a matter of weeks in my 1998 Jeep Cherokee before I learned of the situation and installed a factory Mopar sensor. That was seven years and about 60,000 miles ago and I haven't had an O2 sensor issue since.
MOPAR or ...no parts.
ScannerDanner....I don't know u dude...but I wanna say THANKS MAN...U ARE A LIFESAVER FOR A LOTTA PEOPLE. ...BLESS YOU!
+Pro300 awesome! Thank you for the comment. Let me guess, you were at your wits end after replacing your O2 sensor?
Have been battling with the 420/430 codes on my 2012 Volkswagen Routan for several months. Initially I rebuilt my transmission as I read about the documented failure of the valve body. It has been amazing how poorly the transmission operated, however, I finally came accross Dans videos. I purchased the e-book and have had an epiphany as to how important the O2 sensors are to the entire functioning of the Chrysler TIPM system. Thats right Chrysler. The VW Routan is a Town and Country in Laderhosen! So much so that the dealers want nothing to do with working on these vehicles unless they are out of warranty and then they want to do things like the Chrysler Dealership mentioned in the video.
On the Chrysler 3.6L VVT pentastar you will ultimately have a convergence of several problems to look for when the 420/430 codes, misfire codes crankshaft/camshaft sensor mismatch, oil pressure sensnor stuck on and 2nd gear, 5th gear, compounder errors start to set.
The first item that leads to errors is the camshaft phaser self clean program. You cant just change the oil and reset the code on this engine. Recommended is to change the oil and run the self clean program that can only be found in a Versus type scanner. This will prevent the VVT system from causing the computer to over compensate for valve train signals sending incorrect data to the ECU that throws off 02 sensor Fuel trim monitoring.
The second item is to monitor the hard wired fuel sensor relay in the TIPM. This is well documented and explained on verticalvisions.com web site. A wire fuse system is used to bypass the TIPM relay that fails within 6-60,000 miles. Das dealer blows smoke your way doing anything they can to avoid replacing the TIPM at $1,200 - $1,500 dollars a shot. The Fuel relay messes with the fuel pressure causing hiccups, hard shifts in 2nd-3rd and 5th - 6th, missfires and the ever popular stalling of the engine on the freeway, when your wife is attempting to tyrn into the school parking lot (without power steering assist) and other underpant staining experiences.
In my experience all these situations put unusual wear and tear on the 02 sensors causing them to fail and give upstream downstreem short to grounds. Couple this with hey the Bosch sensors are a great deal as much as $40/sensor savings of the NTK sensors and after all its a Volkswagen it should do great with German parts right?!
Unfortunately, not having seen this information earlier in the process I melted my Catalysts. So even though I saw the same response Dan did - once the Bosch sensors were switched out for NTK's the catalyst didnt even have to warm up to display a healthy signal.
I do have one question for you Dan. The system will only work with a zirconium tipped NTK sensor due to the Lambda signal. Do I need to use a factory Catalyst because they use a medium that will only react with the NTK sensor to send the proper bias signal to the ECU? I guess a follow up would be if the cat needs to be MOPAR does anyone know the cat manufactuer so savings like buying a NTK packaged sensor provides?
Thank you so much Dan for making your book and videos public outside of your trade school. Best information on the internet. Now all I need to do is find someone fire selling there Versus Scanner! LOL!
Amen to that brother. That is why I paid more and bought Ford O2s for my Crown Vic. You get what you pay for is very true in electronics.
I had a 2005 Dakota in our shop and ordered plugs from the dealer. Found they sent NGK. Called them and received a little education. Mopar uses NGK spark plugs for some applications.
Thanks for putting this video on the internet. I use almost all dealership parts to avoid this very thing. I have been wrenching professionally for 30 years and have seen the aftermarket parts world go down hill.
Yeah, I agree. In my experience most of the problems a vehicle has after an accident aren't so much a result of the accident itself, but rather the shop trying to bid the insurance company a cheaper job or the insurance company bullying the shop into lowering the price and dag-nasty evilness ensues. I remember one time a similar situation to this on a Cadillac CTS that almost costed the body shop a pair of heads.
Sick video Scanner Danner. I just got my mechanic license 3 months ago and i love diagnostics! I find your videos very helpful. This video reminds me. About 2 years ago i diagnosed the boss's wife's trailblazer 5.7. The licensed guys put in new intake gaskets, new o2 sensors and it was all fine but after the car warms up it started running rough again. So they gave it to me when i was the apprentice :) and i was watching my o2's and my fuel trims on both banks, while another apprentice was driving... everything was fine but then after about 10 minutes, bank 2 fuel trim started going nuts. It just went up and up and up and up and maxed out basically, while bank 1 was fine. Same with the o2 reading. It was going lean lean lean lean lean and maxed out. I then suspected it is a faulty replacement sensor. So i put in the old one, and the problem was fixed! For some reason bank 1 replacement sensor had no issues though.
Not every part off the assembly line is good. A bit unrelated, but for a while there I preferred Bosch spark plugs over NGK's even though I always had to take some back because their cores had infinite resistance.
NGK upped their quality, they were always more consistent than the Bosch, but what I liked about the design of the NGK's showed up on Bosch, and Bosch bettered their quality control.
Now I really can't tell the difference. They're both good.
Seen these types of problems way back in the late 70's. We would do a tune up on a GM car and use Champion spark plugs for a tune up and the engine would run like crap. Replace the new Champions with AC spark plugs and the very rough running engine was fixed. We had no explanation for that back then also.
That's a smart ECU, definitely smarter than that dealership employees
I have used NTK O2's on a 2006 Jeep Wrangler with no problem. They are OEM made for Chrysler and can be purchased for much less than buying through Mopar parts. Glad you made this video because I have been wanting to know more about this subject for a while. Thanks Paul, I always enjoy the knowledge and effort you put into making your videos!
Thanks man, good tip. Uploading Part 2 tonight. I think you will really like the additional info.
NTK O2 sensors on a 3.5L 2006 Dodge Magnum were no good for me. Changed to new OEM Chrysler and high sensor voltage code setting stopped. Graphed response and voltage levels normalized. Finicky machines!!
Thanks for these awesome videos Paul! I just purchased your book to show my support for the channel and for the great info on it!
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that. This would be chapter 17 and 18 material my friend 😉
@@ScannerDanner Awesome will definitely check those chapters out, thanks again bud!
Perfect *REAL* demonstration sir.Scanner Danner!......Blessingssss for you sir!
KNOWLEDGEABLE
Sir ScannerDanner Good Morning 🙏 🌄 Take care and have a great day Sir ScannerDanner
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
I live in Michigan, and I need a guy like you to fix my misfire issue,,👍
im s Chrysler tech..i use ONLY ngk plugs IN EVERYTHING! as well as NTK o2's BOSCH sucks thats the truth for sure! but NGK/NTK are the BEST (NTK o2s are usually stock on alot of chryslers actually!)
Hi Paul,when i take my 10 year old ford Focus ST 170 to the Ford dealers it's oem parts all the way they don't even bother to suggest after market parts anymore. Also some of the top diagnostics experts in the UK say OEM sensors over after market all day long.
If you think about this you will conclude that the after market Bosch sensor have the ground wire tied to the sensor ground. And as the sentor is in contact with the exaust manifold wich is ground, it kills de 2,5v BIAS voltage for the PCM, thus the problem is that. If you could isolate the exaust manifold from battery ground that after-market sensor should work. The problem is that the ground wire on that sensor is tied to the sensor metalic case that threads on the exaust. That's all. The original sensor has the grounds isolated. So the ground wire from the sensor is not part of the melalic case of the sensor. That's a floating ground nothing more than that. If the sensor was made of plastic this would not be a problem. Sorry about my poor english. I'm from Portugal. We don't have Chryslers here but we have GMs. Best regards.
That is not the issue. Both sensors are using external grounds on the 4 wire designs. Watch part 2. It is simply a difference in the heater circuit that is causing the issue
OK. If the PCM is using 2,5v on the ground wire the O2 must have a separated ground wire. The majority of O2s have the ground wire tied to the metalic case. If that PCM is using 2,5v on the ground wire as soon as you attach the sensor to the exaust manifold that voltage would be knocked down imediatly. So the O2 sensor must be special in that regard to have the ground wire isolated from the case of the O2.
There are no 4 wire O2 sensors that are grounded to the case.1,2 and 3 wire ones were but they don't use those much anymore.
4 wire ones: 2 wires for the heater, 1 for the signal and the other one is ground endeed.
That explains everything I guess I bought sensors from auto zone both showing heated sensor still
Scanner Danner for President in 2024 !
Why dont these mechanics i pay find this
Replacing my 2012 Hyundai
2.0 aftermarket
Bosch this weekend
With Denso
Paul,
Very interesting behavior of the Bosch VS the OEM O2 sensors. As others have said, it would seem to be a heater issue (difference between the 2 sensors). I would bet that the firmware/software code in the ECM controlling the PWM of the heaters makes some sort of assumption to drive both O2's with the same waveform profile. The Bosch heater thus is not getting as hot as the OEM one. Point being that revving the engine started yielding somewhat normal sensor output (extra exhaust heat). As a test, I wonder if Bosch sensors on both banks would result in the ECM FW/SW re-learning the heater(s) PWM profile? Another thought would be to remove both O2's, then take an handheld IR digital laser thermometer and compare their temps at idle; I would bet the Bosch is lower, thus not high enough for the sensor to output enough voltage.
Tom
Paul, thank you for all the training videos you have done over the years. You have blessed so many people over the years. I pray the Lord of Hosts, King Jesus, will continue to bless and protect you and your family.
Thank you brother! Very timely comment as I am editing a video I shot almost 2 years ago when we were in Panama visiting a missionary couple. There has been a death of a main guy and I want to share the news somehow without making this video about me. It's why I never posted it in the first place. But this family needs us right now. Pray for wisdom. Literally right now as we speak.
ScannerDanner Amen brother. Lord your will be done. Bless the grieving hearts with your comfort and peace. Bless them with your wisdom and understanding. Jesus, we believe and know that you are seated at the right hand of the Father and continuously making intercession for us all. We thank you Lord for all have done and look forward to what you will do. Amen
Amen, thank you so much!
You are welcome. Anytime brother. Thank you
I was wondering if the upstream is OEM original replacements but the downstream was unknown China aftermarket if this would also disrupt the system possibly indicating a short or etc in left right banks. I just discovered today I had original Denso 234-9030 in upstream and after market in downstream of my 2004 Jaguar XJ8. Been wrestling with that problem showing a shorted wire and kicking on the Engine light. Clearing codes would be good for 15 to 30 miles and all connections were solid. Did have a taillight right turn signal flashing causing left brake light to flash also. Found out it was the trunk fuse box and a replacement took care of that. Thought maybe same on Engine fuse box, but discovered today aftermarket downstream sensors. After watching your video I ordered Denso 234-4798 originals downstream. Cant wait to see if that will cure the problem. Thanks for the video. It is good job.
This model doesn't use downstream fuel trim control, but some models absolutely do.
Sure seems like a heater problem with the bosh sensor. Noticed this once on a 97 ford explorer. replaced one o2 with a bosh aftermarket sensor.The other sensor came from Ford and the Ford sensor was a lot quicker to time to activity than the Bosch. No code was ever set as far as I know.
excellent engine , one of the very best chrysler has ever made.
I ran into this same problem on a Dodge Durango a few months back. I misdiagnosed it and spent a couple hundred bucks on other parts in disbelief a "NEW" sensor could be bad right out of the box. The truck pulled all fuel from one bank and caused a severe lean misfire, I caught this since the front bank was reading full rich while the sensor behind the cat was running FULL LEAN. I picked this up after watching one of Pauls videos. Wrote a 1 page letter to Bosch, still waiting on a refund from the old sensor.
nice, let me know what they say.
Hi Paul. Great book! I read half of it last night. Do you use your vantage pro regularly. Or do you use your verus 100% of the time?
I use the Vantage Pro regularly or my old school mt2400 vantage
mechanic mlm.
Thank you for this. What was the Bosch O2 sensor part number that was used? Was it 13122? I do notice that the factory O2 part number on the upstream on my shop 2002 300m special is 4606555AA and has about a 5megohm resistance between the gray wire terminal of the o2 to its outside metal casing. The Bosch 13122 does not have this resistance, it is isolated.
Thank you for another great video! I wouldn't consider myself a pro, but I do all of my own work and some work for others. Another bit of information to store away!
Have you talked to the dealership? Are they interested in learning why the AM 02 didn't work?
I haven't but what I did find out is this particular dealership lost their Chrysler division. So is NOT a Chrysler dealer anymore. This explains the use of non OEM parts. I mention this is part 2
Enjoyed your video.
My guess is the OEM O2 sensor heater has some sort of temperature feedback that the Bosch one does not. I do not think it is the bias voltage on the sensor side difference.because it worked when hot.
Two what would happen ifs..
1 Power the heater directly with 12v it the sensor should then work at idle?.. (if the heater does not burn out?)
2 Compare the resistance of both sensors heaters at different temperatures? I guess this could be achieved by both measuring current along with voltage with the scope and doing the division at instantaneous points of time.
Is it true Hondas have the same issue?
I owned a 2003 of this car and can say for sure the owners manual and factory service manual says the oem plugs are ngk on this engine. Also with the o2 sensors I belive they are ntk or ngk who makes the oem sensors
Have you found other vehicles to be so picky ?
As a general rule would you say that an OE replacement is usually sufficient ?
Yes! Just recently got my ass kicked by a 2011 or 12 Jeep Patriot with an aftermarket crank sensor giving it fits intermittently. The fix was a factory crank sensor.
Danner I had my o2 sensor replaced with a Bosch one. I had no error codes. but I realized that the car had almost constant loss of power. Even after a full Ecu reset. After 4 months of searching for what the problem could be. it seemed that the new Bosch o2 sensor was not giving the right values to the Ecu. After sending the new Bosch o2 sensor back, ive bought a new Pierburg o2 sensor. And still the same loss of power.
So finally i bought a new Oem o2 sensor from the dealer. And guess what i now have full power again! My car is a Seat Leon 1m from 2005 petrol.
awesome! unfortunate you had to learn the hard way that an OEM sensor is sometimes absolutely necessary
Hi Paul, How do I test the O2 Sensor Harness To PCM Wires for integrity? What Info/data should I be looking for? I have changed the B2S1 & B2S2 O2 Sensors Multiple times with Factory and Aftermarket O2 Sensors, Still have the same problem/DTC. When I run the Car, The Downstream O2 Sensors Voltage stays above 4V, It eventually gets down to about 1V Or less after running the engine for a long time, Same as You demonstrated in One of Your Vids.. You said in the case of Dead O2 or Shorted/Open Sensor Circuit, It'll read 5V ALL THE TIME, But, I do get some Voltage activity.. So I'm trying to figure out if the Circuitry problem is in the Wires or the PCM..? Also, I don't wanna call the Catalytic Converters as the Culprit Yet, Till I'm Sure. I have the same Chrysler Car & Engine, Mine is a 2002 Chrysler 300M and P0141 & P0056 Codes..
your heater circuits are not working, you need to focus there
HEY! I LIKE ALL YOUR VIDEOS, NICE WORK!!! HAVE A CHRYSLER PACIFICA AND AFTER REPLACING THE MOTOR AT JUNK YARD THEY GAVE IT BACK WITHOUT THE CATAITIC CONVERTER AND WITHOUT THE OXIGEN SENSOR THAT GOES ON IT, SO I GOT THE CC AND AN BOSCH OXIGEN SENSOR AND THEN THE OTHER SENSOR WENT WRONG, AFTER THAT I REPLACED IT WITH A BOSCH ONE AND WAS RUNING GOD FOR A DAY OR TWO BUT IT GAVE ME TRUBLE ONCE MORE SO I REPLACED THEM AGAIN WITH THE SAME BOSCH ONES AND ONLY RUN GOOD FOR A DAY, MY QUESTION IS,WHAT TYPE OF SENSOR SHOULD I USE? IT'S GIVING CODE P00138 AND P00132, THANS.
Very interesting anomaly with the O2s. My theory why when moving the Bosch O2 back to bank 2 and the pcm did not rely on the good OEM O2 on bank 1 is the way pcm circuitry is designed (though you did say you thought it was a result of clearing the pcm of adaptive data). I would like to see if you switched the Bosch to bank 1 and the OEM to bank 2, if the pcm would then rely on the good OEM.
A little off topic. I had an '02 Montana come back with a misfire after I replaced the intake gaskets (3.4). It turns out that the heater wasn't working on the O2 so when the engine was at idle, the O2 cooled off and caused a misfire. I replaced the sensor, and haven't heard any more. I guess not news is good news.
I'm not trying to discount what you say but my oem o2 sensor has a Bosch stamp on it. I've looked up the numbers on the sensor and it says Mopar sensor online. so, it's probably oem on my 2008 Jepp Compass
I usually check the part number of a sensor and order a 'aftermarket' part of the same brand.. Better price, same maker ;)
ScannerDanner You mentioned the chrysler dealer installing NGK plugs. Could you explain why that is not a good idea? Does the vehicle call for specific other brand plugs?
KeleentProductions NGK plugs are THE OEM plugs. Other plugs do not work well with this engine. He is absolutely correct about Bosch O2 sensors being junk though.
Gee, that's funny . . . on Bosch's web page for that sensor, it shows that it's in the 'compatible' list for that car. Wonder why? Seriously, though, I used to be able to get the tech spec's for Bosch's parts, but they're hiding them somewhere now. When comparing specs to OEM back in the early 2000's, I just went to the site and looked up the data. I could see that Bosch spec's were the same as OEM, so chose to replace the one on my GMC truck (an ACDelco) with a Bosch. Worked fine. If they'd publish their spec's somewhere, mechanics could look them up and see that no, they're not the same as OEM for that particular sensor, and choose something else. Hard to do the job correctly if they won't even give you the basic info. I'm seeing this on a LOT of manufacturer's websites now - places where you could get all the necessary info in the past now seem to hide it, even just the basic diagrams of the physical dimensions.
Firstly awesome video as usual, as a former Chrysler dealer tech I have seen this scenario numerous times. What too many posters are blabbing about being idiots at the dealer using non oe parts they need to realize often times when dealing with idiots at the insurance company's is that they often supply or demand only the cheapest parts. And yes NGK is sometimes the oe plug. I first saw this on low mileage first service tune ups on the 3.7 & 4.7 series of engines. Not saying they aren't misinformed dealer techs but again the whole story should be known before keyboard warriors start slandering the pros anywhere.
For sure, the insurance companies suck to deal with sometimes.
I found out this was not a Chrysler dealer anymore, they used to be but lost that division. I mention this is part 2 coming up. This would be why they didn't use OEM parts. Sorry about the "dealer bashing" going on. I look at it more like incompetence at all levels in our field, dealership, aftermarket, everyone. Don't you think?
ScannerDanner No worries Paul I know you are not responsible for the dealer bashing. I agree incompetence and lack of technical skill are a common issue at all levels of repair. As long as there is a flat rate or commissioned based pay scale there will be holes. At .6 of an hour I wouldn't have been able to prove that the Bosch sensor was incompatible and I was the only dealer tech that did figure this very pattern failure out in my shop and the only one that even knew it was a common no no. Lack of approved diag time and not understanding the intricacies of the system leads to parts swapping and pattern failure over reliance. Its because of instructors like yourself and forums like iatn that I have been able to push past the average and fix almost anything
Mr Danner,
If you can please forward your findings to Bosch. I work in a parts store that sells this very sensor and comes up in my computer as a replacement and I DO NOT want my customers having this problem. I'd do it myself but Bosch is more likely to listen to you then to listen to the bottom feeder parts guy.
Thanks,
-AJ
I'm than, the customer only notice the issue only at idle. However, great info.
actually they do put ngk plugs in most chryslers now. every hemi has them,
NGK is what came factory in my 2008 JEEP Grand Cherokee 3.7
My 98 dodge ram came with champions
Paul! important clues of what is going on... the sensor seems to do better when hotter... what led me to believe that the problem is not the sensor... rather the heater... and culprit would be high resistance or higher resistance on the heater... that is why is drawing less amps and the heather driver cant handle it and the wave form is erratic .... anyway... the main thing is to stay away from the non oem sensors on Chrysler engines! what do you think?
I would agree with the higher resistance comment but not the computer cannot handle it comment. If it was too much amperage I could see the computer limiting current but that is not what is going on here. In part 2 I go into this a little more.
For sure, stay away from anything but an OEM sensor in this particular application.
Man you are more then my teacher o my hero you are awesome person thank you so much
Hi Paul thank you for another great video. Can you check the resistance of the heater circuit of the oem sensor and compare it to the aftermarket sensor? I believe the OEM would show a lower resistance than the aftermarket sensor. Lower resistance will pull more current, hence why the OEM sensor had more current when you tested the current draw. And this may be the reason why this particular sensor will not work in this application. The sensor is not responding because its not in the operating temperature range.
No but I wish I would have. After looking at the amperage readings again, if you freeze the video when I am looking at the heater current on a 200ms screen (zoomed in view) and compare to two O2s, you can see a very clear difference in "on-time", not just the gaps in the controls.
Something is definitely going on there, I wish I would have spent more time on this part. I guess the reason I didn't is the signal never really looks right even with the O2 hot from the exhaust gases at higher RPMs. So it is still more than just a heater circuit problem.
have the same problem with my class Chrysler Pacifica after I replace the catalytic converter I replace both oxygen sensors with botch brand and after that is been giving all kind of troubles this is the third time I replace the sensors with the same brand enough to write check get with the computer it reads code po138
T pin suggestion, I took 8 T pins and soldered wires and shrink wrapped them so they cant touch. I make my own stuff,
Good information
Interestingly rock auto does not list an upstream Bosch replacement when I looked up this exact car it says that ntk is OE mfg. maybe they had many customer issues with the Bosch. And stopped selling it
did i hear that right the chrysler dealer installed a bosch o2 sensor??? Where do these dealerships find there service writers, bell tire???
I really wonder...if the OEM sensor is made by Bosch you should be able to get a Bosch replacement O2 sensor in the aftermarket. Maybe it was just the wrong Bosch sensor?
It was the correct Bosch sensor. Been seeing this problem on Chrysler products for 10 years.
On a 2005 PT cruiser is it the same because I can't get it to operate the 02 sensor both reading low voltage P0031 and P0037. I bought them at autozone.
Good stuff Paul.
You could alter the o2 sensor bias point with some resistors so maybe there is resistors internal to the sensor.
The bias point means the o2 is biased below the operating ground. Its cutting off the bottom of the waveform.
wow didn't know that! thanks for the heads up
After talking to you a few weeks ago about a Chrysler 300 same as the one in the video. I had to give that job for free because I couldn't figure it out. And pay out of my pocket, really upset!
I don't remember, was it O2 related?
ScannerDanner Premium yea it was o2 related
according to autozones catalog, 15729 is the correct universal fit bosch sensor or 13399 bosch directfit type. the 15705 bosch isnt listed for this car. this could be why it doesnt work correctly. lots of car companies use bosch from the factory. denso and other japanese brands are better parts overall.
did you ever verify via bosch directly if that part number was correct for that car? the voltage numbers are just off the chart. the stock o2 is spot on with the voltage swing but that bosch o2 is not even in the ballpark. unless that is just a bad sensor i really have never seen anything from NTK, denso or bosch that's been a problem provided the fitment is correct
yes, it was the "correct" Bosch sensor for this car
And I agree, I've not had issues with any Bosch O2s other than with these Chrysler systems. I've done literally scores of these with the exact same problem
Hmmm I'm wondering if my replacement O2 is causing the fluctuation. It only happens in gear (manual) not at idle (anytime IAC is not involved). Is that something an O2 can cause. My ECT and all other components are good. Only thing I can't test is the O2 because I'm OBD-I.
hard to say but the fact that it changes when in gear says no, it is not the O2 sensor. Also I have had great success with Bosch O2 sensors in the past so don't panic if you have used an aftermarket sensor, just keep in mind on some systems you must use a factory part.
This guy seems very experienced !
25 years as a tech and 17 years teaching at Rosedale Technical College. Thank you!
Sd should say ..I know not! seems? respect!
Hi paul the bias 2.4 volt on the negative on the 02 sensor would that be the same for other engine sensors on the vehicle or just 02?
Some cam and crank and ABS wheel speed sensors will use a bias on the sensor (-) wires. In all of those examples, they are variable reluctance type sensors.
Hi Paul, wondering if you can give me a piece of advice, I have a 2008 Dakota with the code P0158, I have changed the sensor with one aftermarket from Autozone ( I know, not the best solution hahah) and having something similar of what you shown. When I just start the enginde ( cold) the measurements in that sensor ( S2B2) are flat 1.27V for 15 to 20 minutes, that gives the code P0158. after that time the reading change to .9 and below and works almost in the same way as the S2B1. if I clear the code when the engine is warm, I can use the truck for hours without problems. Just gets cold, and the code pops again and the voltago goes up to 1.27 for the 15 to 20 minutes.
Define the P0158, sounds like a heater circuit issue that is not warming the sensor up properly. Get a factory sensor
35 mins? fuck that i quit lol
will plugs create efficiency fail? if computer doesn't say o2s are not working
Is it possible for a downstream o2 to cause drivabilty issues in a modern chrysler? I have no bias voltage on one side and couldn't find any damaged wires but car runs rough
If the system you have is using downstream fuel trim control, yes, but I don't think Chrysler does that. What year, make, model and engine?
Is this still an issue?
I would have though Bosch would have had some response if they were getting a lot of warranty returns?
well my first experience with this was more than 10 years ago, so it has been an issue at least that long.
the problem with a warranty return would be people are replacing so many parts in an attempt at fixing this issue and are probably giving up and shipping the car to the next guy
Is a 2002 Chrysler Sebring limited Convertible with the 2.7L, 24 valve, V6 engine able to use the Bosch 13138 replacement? If not, can the NTK 23133 replacement be used?
If it is a pulse width modulated heater circuit, it MUST use the NTK sensor.
If power to the O2 heater comes from the ASD relay, (constant power) the Bosch unit will work.
Would this apply to a 97 jeep wrangler? I ordered Bosch sensors. Should I send them back and get something else?
Use NTK oxygen sensors in these. Not sure about the heater circuit in 97 but that is where the issue lies.
Do you know the Best cheaper Brand o2 Sensors (other than Bosch)thats compatible with the Chrysler Crossfire?
Yes. Look up NTK sensors. That's what the factory Chrysler O2 sensor is and it was a fraction of the cost as the dealer but the same sensor.
That's what I've used. Most times the correct sensor from the dealer is cheaper than aftermarket. Go figure.
I'm having a similar issue with my 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 4L 6 cyl. (California emissions). P0051 persists, even though I have replaced the o2 sensor, and my mechanic checked the voltage and said it should be working fine. He also wants to replace the PCM.
If I put in Mopar or NTK, do you think it will fix my persistent P0051 problem?
I installed a Denso sensor I purchased on Amazon.
so, when Chrysler stops selling stuff we're screwed .... it that the deal ? (04 grand cherokee parts from Jeep are becoming almost impossible
Can this cause a P219A and P219B? I have newly installed Bosch 02 Sensors on a 2013 RAM 1500 and I'm having quite a time diagnosing. Please help!
What's the definition of these codes? O2 signal high? The wrong O2 sensors won't heat properly with the PWM heater circuit and it will cause false rich signal from the O2. Very negative trims and intermittent low power. Runs good cold and at wide open throttle. Does any of this sound like you?
Can anyone please tell me which of the 4 sensors are heated? Both left and right upstream? 07 JKUR. PLEASE.
Could this be what's going on with my 06 Pacifica I changed the o2 sensor and got the same code high voltage sensor 1 bank 1 it's reading almost 5v
Absolutely! NTK sensor only on these
I was curious as to what company makes the o2 sensors for Chrysler Jeep. It's NGK. Chrysler rebrands it and of course marks it up bigtime.
NTK which is a division of NGK
@@ScannerDanner Yes. I found that curios considering the comment about the spark plugs. I own a 2001 Jeep Cherokee and was naturally interested in your vid. I also watch many of your your other videos. Thank's for the reply!
I'm having a similar situation with my 2014 Mitsubishi lancer evolution x. I replaced it with an after market denso 02 sensor. Denso claiming it's exactly the same as the factory because it's the same manufacturer.
Chrysler used an NTK sensor from the factory. I did not buy a Chrysler O2 for this, we found an NTK sensor for a fraction of the cost and it works perfectly.
Quick question it looks like the mechanic switched up the upstream with
the downstream on X type 2003 2.5 can this cause my lean condition?
Tested MAF, FPR, leaks, and the ECT sensor all good.
Absolutely!
@@ScannerDanner thanks thats what I thought.
Hey scanner danner big fan. My 2005 pacifica is giving me a big headache. I have a p0131 and changed my sensor with a denso and i still have this code. I checked my heater circuit at the harness and im getting a good ground but im not getting 12v with key on engine off. According to the diagram im supposed to get 12v direct from the computer. Is it toast? I have good continuity at that power wire all the way up to the computer. Thanks.
@paquesepas6696 probably not, that is a PWM power feed and the PCM probably isn't turning it on until the engine is running. You need to lose that denso O2 for your application. NTK is the factory sensor for that
@@ScannerDanner so you think it could be my denso? I just thought about checking for 12v at the harness for the heater circuit at the downstream o2 which I don't have a code for so downstream is working. Thanks for your help and I'll try the ntk but it's telling me I have 2 options for my car due to some xzz option.
This is a pine hollow video where he has my problem on same type of vehicle and ends up saying it was the computer. I hope the ntk sensor solves it though.
th-cam.com/video/9hdxIkTCI9A/w-d-xo.htmlsi=MrjVl_pP3VrjU8Qz
what sensor do you recommend to buy my friend?can you place a link?
I'm pretty sure I showed the part in this video? It is a NTK sensor that the factory uses and is the one you want to buy
Is bosch really that bad on these cars ? I just got back from a shop where they replaced an O2 sensor on 2021 Chrysler 300 with a Bosch sensor. If the same code pops up again, will it more than likely be because it was replaced with a Bosch Sensor and not OEM ?
The Bosch O2 sensors were originally built with a heater circuit that was designed to be on all the time. Once Chrysler went with PWM heater circuits, the Bosch O2 sensors were no longer compatible. Is it still this way? I do not know
@ScannerDanner interesting, I guess only time will tell. Thank you for the information !
HI, I have a 2002 jeep Gr. Cherokee with a 4.7 limited. I was rear ended about six months ago. Ever since then I have mis-fire problems. Cylinder 1 had a bad fuel injector. The dealer replaced all 8 injectors. Now I have engine code stating that 2/1 and 2/2 O2 sensors are bad. They want to replace all four O2 Sensors. I was not hit hard probrably the car was going 15 MPH and the trailer hitch took the brunt of the hit but he did make contact with the exhust pipe. Could some of these issues be related to the crash? This jeep used to run so much better. I also smell coolant when the heat is on. I would apprecite your comments.
+Paul Regeis watch these videos. If you O2 ends up being bad you MUST use a factory O2 on these systems.
th-cam.com/video/SEuGtggZAvo/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/v8XrM-7BuOg/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/-lUYRqaYvYI/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/gtTKOuu6EPw/w-d-xo.html
Add in Jeep to the title cause this issue had me in my 2008 Commander! 4 aftermarket 02 sensors, let to plugs, coil packs, etc and then to the Mopar sensor to have no issues. I think on my Commander a 3.7, Bank 2 in the passenger side, Let me know if that is even correct? But F sake, I wish this had the O2 Jeep Sensor added in the title. Would have saved me a lot of grief.
Will do my friend. And nice job on your diligence to get your Jeep fixed
Done! Plus I added this description:
This condition occurred from a heater circuit change. Chrysler started PWM the O2 heater instead of it being constantly energized, and most of the aftermarket sensors are designed to be on all the time! The result is a cold oxygen sensor, especially at low RPM and idle speeds. This causes elevated signal voltage (false rich conditions) and massive amounts of fuel being taken away (negative fuel trim)
Looks like Bosch overlooked this. Bosch first invented oxygen sensors, both wide band and narrow band. I believe they are top quality if right one is selected. Indeed 15705 is one of proposed for this car by Bosch (www.boschautoparts.com/vehiclepartfinder/pages/vehiclepartfinder.aspx). In Bosch O2 catalog is different number, but universal one (www.bosch-lambdasonde.de/en/downloads/lambda_sensor_catalogue.pdf page 146), so most probably will not fit either.
As you showed, this wrong sensor is behaving differently from bank to bank. Maybe due to heating control is slightly different. More heating on bank 2.
chrysler most likely doesn,t have a 02 sensor factory, they get it from a sensor supplier. so buying at the dealer is a waste of money, find out who makes it and the part number and get the part from somewhere else.
Greetings and Peace - Could I use the upstream oxygen sensor to replace the downstream and vice versa?
I have a malfunction p0139 in Town and Country 2008 and after I bought an original Mopar sensor made in Japan, the check engine continued to appear and I connected a lamp instead of a heater and the lamp was changing in the luminance level in a frequent manner and it seems that the control circuit works - the important thing is the sensor wires one reads zero volts and the second reads 2.5 V When the engine speed increases, it falls to the limits of 0.86 volts and sometimes even less! - when the engine is turned off, the voltages continue to exist which is 2.5 volts ? Can you help me?
The 2.5 volts you see on these O2 sensors is on the ground circuit or the low reference circuit of the O2 and it is a bias voltage. It is normal to see it and it is coming from the ECM not the O2
@@ScannerDanner thanks.but I want to know why the fault p0139 is still there?
At the end of the day, I believe Bosch should be to blame, for legally being able to produce an inferior part that they say will work for the application. "Meets or exceeds OEM Specs" is the biggest lie with a smile face i've heard in my life, when it comes to OEM vs. aftermarket parts. It should be illegal to produce aftermarket parts. There should only be OEM parts available for cars as 9/10 times its an aftermarket part to blame. Most people would blame the vehicle owner or the shop for using said part, but the reality is, it's the part manufacturers and the marketing people ruining our vehicles by producing inferior parts for no reason, other than profits, and now the customer has to clean up their mess. Convince me i'm wrong.
well seems like you keep on working on exactly the same stuff i am not a chrylser mercedes e320 p0130 it wont go into closed loop got a part number on bosch 02 on mercedes forum thought i was gonna be ok with that but now i am wondering also indentifix showed about 10 comfirmed fixes on this code with either bad b1/1 02 or wrong o2 installed,didnt give part# just said make sure its for a 97 model . i have been busy and havent gotten much futher in the lectures than section 3 or 4 but any way i will
wondering if bosch has actually addressed this issue by now
nope, been dealing with this for over 10 years on these Chrysler systems
awesome you diagnostic ?
Hi, I have an 06 Sebring 2.7l and am getting a P2098 Bank 2 sensor 2 Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System to lean and a slow to respond error on Bank 2 sensor 1. I do know a year ago the 02 sensor was replaced on Bank 2 sensor 2. Can these codes be caused by aftermarket sensors being used? I was monitoring the sensor and discovered that when you accelerate the voltage on Bank 2 sensor 2 it goes to 0 and soon after the fault is registered.
+Bill Turner you need to fix your Bank 2 senor 1 fault first
can someone list vehicles by dodge/chrysler that use 2.5 bias/reference voltage on the o2
I have a 2007 chrysler aspen 5.7 hemi and I'm having the same issue I bought four brand new aftermarket 02 sensors and my truck will run smooth for a little while and then it will start to run like shit but when I turn my truck off and start it back up it runs smooth again then goes back to running like shit
NTK sensors ONLY in these. The downstream sensors you can leave aftermarket, the upstreams you MUST use a factory sensor (which is NTK)
Does SnapOn trouble shooter say anything about only using OEM O2's on this system?
I don't ever remember reading about it but it may
I don't think Bosch cares about this special case at all that the Chrysler uses a bias of 2,5 volt.
Why should they? This is not common in cars (at least in Europe and Asia)
Upon further research, it is the PWM heater circuit that caused this issue. The Bosch sensors were designed to be on all the time like the older Chryslers were.
If the ECM defaults off one bank and adjust both banks accordingly, then what harm is it leaving that Bosch censer in the unregulated bank, outside of setting a code? The computer wasn't regulating off of it anyways. That's obviously what Chrysler did, and I'm sure they know about this, I couldn't imagine them NOT knowing about it, and I bet if they knew the car could NOT run on this censer at all, they'd of told the insurance company about it and used the OEM O2. Also, why the heck design a computer to use just one O2 for regulation but have two O2's.... it's obvious from this diagnostics the ECM only gives a crap about one bank anyways?
I would say the computer sees the voltage is to high and is cooling down the sensor to lower the voltage.