I see some people using a modeler with a power amp like the Seymour duncan power stage for more bite. This still keeps the rig size very small and gets the live tone from reviews that I've seen. So you'd still have the helix, power amp and speaker
The Problem is the FRFR...so you have to work with low and high cuts. I use my Helix live for years, but I skip the cab sims..I just use the Amp Moddels and fire up a real Poweramp + Cab with it..I never had the "cut through" Problem
@@ReagorNation Set up a preset just using the Amp model. No virt cab! Route to the line outs and connect the line out to a real power amp (I use the TC BAM 200, or the Orange Pedal Baby 100, but any other power amp will do..even the fx return on a guitar amp). Now set the global high cut to 8khz and the low cut to 80 hz to eliminate the FRFR behaviour (every frequenzy at same volume level -- BAD) Enjoy
This 100%. It gives you all the flexibility you need but stops it sounding like you're playing a recording through a PA. I use a Quad Cortex, run the tone out to a Fryette Power Station valve power section into a 4x10 cab with proper guitar speakers and no cab sim, then I run a version with a cab sim out to the desk.
I never have a cut through problem. I use an FRFR, but it's an Atomic CLR. If you are trying to get that AITR sound, your solution works the best, but I'm pretty happy with the results of my Quad Cortex through my CLR. I also use IEMs in my other band, and it sounds amazing in my ears!
Agree 100%. I use my Marshall Origin 50 together with Zoom G6 4 cable method and therefore I can get the best of both when playing live. The sound of a real cab on stage is a unique experience for yourself, which no FRFR speaker can replace. That's my opinion
100,001 now! You rock dude! I’ve used the Helix almost exclusively live for 7+ years. It’s great, but I’ve found that for larger outdoor festivals I prefer my 50w 2x12 tube combo amp. I’ve always called tube amps “dummy proof”. You don’t have to be a programmer or engineer to set one up. Just make it loud and it sounds good. That being said I still use the helix 95% of the time for at home practice, rehearsals, or indoor shows; which is what I’m doing most often. Modeler guys say that just getting a traditional guitar cab to use with a modeler is enough but I haven’t found that to be true in my personal experience.
I use a hybrid solution. I run a Fractal in the effects return of a tube amp with a real guitar cab. That gives me the feel and punch of a real tube amp but with the control and flexibility of a modeler.
Hi Tom. Thanks for this video. I get the same feeling. I heard someone say that playing a modeler sounds HiFi. I like this word too (did not know Anemic), it’s like pushing a button and have the perfect sound 🙂 tube amp is the opposite with chaotic frequencies, nuances and dynamic. Modelers are very good at recording without miking and amp and try to find the sweet spot. A good compromise I found on stage is feeding the amp section of a tube amp and its cab with my FM3. Sounds amazing too with more choices for amps and pre effects like distortion, phaser, wha….
The difference you're hearing by comparing the live sound of a software amp into a PA (or FRFR) to a hardware amp into a cab is the fact that models include a microphone in the signal chain. If you compare a mic'ed hardware amp to the software amp, both played back through a monitor, they're the same. If you want the live amp in the room sound from a software amp, turn off the power amp and cab modelling and send the output to your amp's effects return and send it out to your guitar cab. You can only really do that with a modeller (e.g. fractal) but not with a profiler (e.g. tonex, neural).
I use no IR. Go through a Power Amp into a mic'd cab. Still pushing air. Can't tell the difference between the modeler and a tube and most bands we play with use tubes.
You're right. Some people dont realize that modelers are miked sounds. It wont sound like an amp in the room to the player, but to the audience it should sounds exactly the same.
That's exactly how I felt with the AxeFX2. For many years of recording, nothing beat it. Live however, my Marshall always cut through the mix way better.......until the AxeFX3 came out. That was game changer. The real advantage for modellers is how they lock in the tone going direct to front house. Def Leppard, Metallica and even Megadeth have been using them for 10 years+ and that's why. Regardless, for how you hear your tone onstage with any modeller, you gotta find the right power amp for it. Another trick is power amp simulation. Everyone knows to turn off cab sims but sometimes, you also have to turn of "amp simulator." That was also a game changer for me. Cheers Tom and congrats on hitting 100,000 subs!!
I use AMT LegendAmp pedals for both live and recording. I use the M2 and P2 pedals, they emulate Marshall and Peavey amps. Each pedal has 3 outputs: to front of amp, to power amp, and to soundcard with emulated speaker cab. The front of amp makes the pedal behave like a distortion pedal: bypass and on The power amp makes the pedal behave like a preamp: clean channel and distortion channel The soundcard is used for sending to the PA like your Helix or for recordings. For live I use the power amp output combined with a cheap Harley Benton power amp. I then drive whatever speaker cabinet happens to be available. That way I get to have an amp that isn't heavy. I do depend on a speaker cabinet though.
It might sound extreme, but whenever I run my amp modeler, I end up pushing the mids to its max and almost turning off bass and treble eq on any selected amp. On top of that I use a pre-cut HPF @ 200hz and a LPF usually between 4,5kHz and 6.7kHz. I usually end up with a VOX amp model (with TB off) which by itself already has some reduced bass and pushed mids. So, lots of mids while cutting back on low and high eq. For me, the advantage of using a modeler live is the consistency of tone.
It really is almost always a mid issue. If it's not cutting through back off the bass and dail up the mids as then your not competing with the bass or other low end. 💯
I have to parrot what’s already been said, you need to use a real guitar cabinet, ideally driven with a solid state power amp as not to add additional coloration (tube amps often add EQ through negative feedback and nonlinearity when driven hard. Also, remember that an IR block or cab sim includes a microphone simulation. When you use an amp on stage you’re listening to the cab directly without a microphone. These are two fundamentally different things.
😅@5:58 I had a sense of what was next…and I was not surprised at what I saw and heard…I had done the same thing 3 months ago! I run my Helix floor into splitter > Marshall SV20H +Marshall DSL40 head into a Marshall 1960 cab dual mono @8ohms. Super flexible using the SV20H all the time and adding/subtracting the DSL40H using the basic pedal for on/off and channel changing (clean channel green or ultra green[for higher volume and mids]). I am retired, play only once a month, and have muscular help for setup😜. I live in David, Panama and play at a place called Hops where high volume is tolerated and worshipped 🤗 if you are in town on the third Thursday of the month come in and say HI, would love to meet you❤️❤️❤️❤️
I play about 70-80 shows a year and have been digital for about 6 years. I started with Kemper and still love it for home. I swapped to fractal maybe 3 years ago and love it. I agree it's not the same as a great tube amp. I played Splawn, plexi, SLO, and Mesas for years. I just can't use them anymore to most festivals, street dances, county fairs etc etc needing silent stages and quick switch overs. I still own and love my amps but being able to have a silent stage and quick swaps is critical for a lot of shows. I could run amps for about half of the shows but I prefer consistency and ease of use, I'm old lol.
I had an interesting recent experience as an audience member of a Malmsteen show, where the support act was Ragdoll, featuring the brilliant Leon Todd. Leon used his Fractal FM3, I think with in ears. They sounded great, his guitar sounds were very 'modern marshall'. Then Malmsteen performed, the guitar cut through on a different level, and it wasn't volume, as we know, most of his wall of amps wasn't plugged in or turned on. It wasn't until later in the show where I got the chance to hear his sound without any other instruments that it dawned on me. His sound by itself was shrill and piercing, almost no bottom end, all upper mids, and high frequencies that people with modelers tend to cut in their cab IR stage. By itself it was not what I would deem "good tone" I feel like this was the key to me, modelers by default tend to represent the ideal sound of a recorded guitar track, all the outboard gear as well. This sounds incredible through headphones, and in a studio, but live, it's swallowed up in compression and bottom end. I too have been a Helix user for some time, I recently grabbed a little Tonex One, my first experience with the Marshall captures was awful (to my ears). They sounded shrill and nasal, harsh and bright, then I realised, shit, this is what my JCM800 used to sound like when I put my head up near the speaker! There was a guy back in my gigging days (Also in Hobart) that had all the best gear, even rocked the classic Marshall Jubilee at one point, but I could never hear him in the mix, I could never figure out why. I asked the sound guy one time why he didn't turn him up, his response was "it makes no difference, he doesn't have the right frequencies" And there you have have it! Just my 2 cents of course, or looking back over this, more like $2 Love your work Tom, from a fellow Tasmanian (left in the early 90's though)
I don't have any substantial experience with modellers. But, as an owner of a Malmsteen strat since 1994, I've struggled to get a good Yngwie tone at lower volumes. I've heard that the latest modellers are amazing...but I know for certain that a tube amp plus my DOD308 = magic. I tested a small (2w?) amp from a small custom builder years ago and made a huge mistake by NOT buying it. The new modellers do sound very nice. BUT, I don't want to spend hours screwing around on a computer trying to get tones. I only need a few good tones. I'd love to get a small tube amp for home practice like the DSL1 or 5, but I'm not sure that it will get a decent Malmsteen tone. I know the best way to get that tone is sending a goosed signal into a cranked plexi, but the volume would peel paint. Another thing not often addressed is FEEL. Tube amps kind of push and pull along with your playing. The interplay is super hard to describe. Anyway, take care Tom, and thanks for the great videos and lessons! Been a Malmsteen fan for about 35 years. At 54, I remained intimidated by Yngwie's solos, and barely tried learning them (strangely I can play most of his rhythms, even the fast technical stuffl). Swedish Shred Secrets have helped me to play some of it. It is a LOT of patient effort, but worth it. I wouldn't have dreamed I could play the first parts of Trilogy (not quite to full speed yet-people underestimate how FAST it is).
I've used a EVH lll 100 watt with a 2X12 cab for a small patio dinner party with no complaints. To good sized club gigs. Also used it at big venues with the matching 4X12 cab set on Edward's recommended settings...that was glorious. I let Gary Hoey use it for one of his gigs. You should've seen the smile on his face when he walked in and saw it sitting there:) Just the head is a pain to lug around though. I got the Micheal Landau Fender Deluxe 2X12 combo 60watt with a Keely modded Boss Blues Driver and you can cover just about any genre with that live. It loves pedals:)
One thing to remember is that with a modeler through an FRFR, you are not going to get the "Amp in the room" sound. For me, I'm okay with that. I usually use IEMs. When I listened to our band from foh, the guitar sounds great and thats important, but if you are not enjoying yourself on stage playing through an frfr, then going back to amps or using a hybrid solution will probably work better for you. For me, my IEMs sound great in my ears, and having an IEM rig for the whole band gives us consistency every time. When I don't use IEMs, I use my Atomic CLR, and that is the only FRFR that has consistently worked for me. It cuts through on stage, and it is very transparent. I use it to build my live tones. One other key to building live tone is to build them at gigging volume, then touch them up, playing with your band at practice. I let my band know when I'm trying out new tones, and they give me a little grace to tweak then. Better there than at a live gig. To mimimize this further, in my home studio, I will queue up previously recorded multitrack gigs and re-record my guitar as a DI track, then tweak it without playing. I find that this gets me 95% of the way there and then I barely have to tweak my tones at practice.
The best of both worlds is to just get a great power amp with a real cab. I use the Orange Pedal Baby along with an Orange 212 V30 Cab and it's pretty amazing, pretty darn close to a real amp. I am also an amp purist, but this is so versatile that I keep my Amp heads in the closet now. I am now using all of the outputs on the back of the helix. Two XLR cables going to Monitors on the desk and two speaker cables going to the Orange Pedal baby, all in one spot.
I play in a metal band and a LOT of us are moving towards digital. I've been using Line 6 since 2020. I go through a Power Amp and a mic'd Cab, usually a Marshall or a Mesa. No sound issues. Sounds big. With metal, I think because our tones are so saturated, moving from venue to venue, you want a predictable result. Tube amps are temperamental and if they aren't warmed up, you won't have as much gain as you like. Then you over distort and the sound guy might have to wrestle with feedback, or you tone it down and it just sounds a little dry. The modeler is extremely easy to adapt to each venue. My band has a lot of mids and harmonies so it's no issue. I do think the AC/DC hard rock sound is uniquely better with Tube amps, the same way Les Pauls just really nail that. Everything else I think is done extraordinarily well with modelers. I'm never carrying a head again, LMAO. Never ever. Do you feel differently about profilers vs. modelers?
I go back and forth between IEMs and my Atomic CLR when I can't use IEMs. My CLR is very transparent, has a lot of clarity, and sounds tight and punchy, the way I like it, at loud volumes. The Powercab+ did not work for me at all. The headrush was boomy and washed out at high volumes. My QSC K10 worked okay, as did the DXR10, but none were a match for my CLR. I highly recommend them!
I put a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman as a preamp into the effects loop of my Helix Effects unit, and connect that with the 4CM into a tube amp (studio silver jubilee head and cab or Hot Rod deluxe) It sounds waaay better than the sounds I was getting.
The "Global EQ" is pretty handy. But, as far as girth, and getting a more real Amp sound, I suggest you explore turning up the level on the "Output Node" of the Preset on the Helix hardware. It doesn't take much, as even a 1dB increase is noticeable. I only recently discovered the wonderful results this particular setting can produce. It is something I can't achieve in any other way on my HX Stomp. It doesn't seem to work the same in Helix Native. There, it just increases the volume without affecting the cumulative gain structure of the entire signal chain as it does in the hardware unit's Output Node. 😎
For the past handful of years, I've been using a Line 6 POD HD500X at Church. I use three presets, a generic Clean tone with Chorus & Reverb, a Slash Rhythm tone with a bit of Reverb, and an EVH style Lead Tone with Reverb and Delay. Not at all "appropriate" for the Church Worship style of guitar but no one has been concerned with it so far 😅. I would love to have a wall of Marshalls behind me but using my POD is so much more convenient, despite not using it to its full potential.
all analog pre (pedals ) --> my valve Head quite cranked (jcm 800 or brunetti xl ) in to fryette power station, then line out in to any good modeler efx processor, with a good IR --(then if you want in to stereo or mono wet amp or monitors but having always dry real guitar cab out from fryette for live gigs ).. you can have best of both worlds ,all the analog valve harmonic richness that you feel under your fingers and the control from IR and a touch of ambient from your modeler...sent to PA o recording interface etc..
I am in a VH tribute. I play through a 5150 3 EL34 100w half stack mic’d up the middle dry and Axefx3 ( Atomica Plexi with 2 70 greenback cabs) preset for L&R wet effects to front of house Would like to only use the fractal but I just can’t get that punch and tube bite that comes naturally from 5150.
I am about to order toms courses I think. I saw a few clips and he seems to explain very well. He is super helpful & friendly when you contact him via email, classy guy & very talented
Your problem is the power amp section not the modeller itself. Plug your modeller in the FX IN of your amp, tourn off camp sim and there you go. Also try some capture inits like TONEX or QC. The soudstage is so much different from a modeller and maybe that will suiy your needs. But in the end dear Tom we all know that your magic fingers will do the job 🤘
To me, the problem is the need for a real guitar cab. With things like tonex I can really nail the tones, but i can't feel it the same way through the PAs live. I don't think i need my tube amps combos or heads, but a real 1x12 or 2x12 is the secret to the game. I'll get one of these portable poweramps and try it on real guitar cabs with modelers and disable irs. Maybe that with an aby to a ir pedal to the desk. Let's see how it goes.
Interesting, my first modeller was a Vox Tonelab which sounded pretty bad on its own, OK for home recording though. But with the band I'd run it through a Boogie tube power-amp and it sounded fantastic, like a real amp but with total control over routing and effects.
I would love to see a walk through on setting up and plugging into amplitude and how to create some of your tones. I’m new to modelers and my head spins when trying to setup everything. I just plug into my Spark mini and pick a tone from the cloud and I’m off. Love the ease but I want to try amplitude or biasfx2.
I wonder about 2 things: 1) If your Helix emulates a speaker cab 2) If your Helix emulates a microphone recording a speaker cab Live with a Helix, you want the 1st one, and you need your PA to keep up with the bassist and the drummer for your guitar modeling. If the venue doesn't provide that, then indeed, switching to your own amp might be the solution... downside is you have to carry it with you.
I like the simple tube circuits (1959/87 2203/4, etc) because I don't like using ANYTHING that I can't understand and repair by myself. The tube circuits feel and respond differently than non tube circuits for sure........they are more alive and dynamic.
Im wanting an amp modeller just because I am old and I can't carry a lot. Otherwise, I live where you aren't allowed to use amps on stage abd I do play rock. Hard rock! Metal, etc. I will be using a boss amp and a modeller if no amp is allowed. ❤
Since you love modeling and specifically Amplitude... Have you tried the Tonex in the loop of your helix and split the signal to the sub out of the helix with no cab sim into a power amp and cab on stage, and the main outs to foh?
When we play live i only use my Helix direct, we all use In ear monitor anyway so it doesn't really make a difference if I use a cab or not and to be fair with my setup it's really hard to notice any difference between the real amp and the helix if you listen from the FOH. Maube you are using the wrong mike and cab combinations or IR . It take time to dial a good tone
How did you get a clean tone from the Helix? I've had a hard time achieving those fat super clean tones I've gotten from tube amps. Everything sounds broken up like Stray Cats or thin. The best I've gotten is to remove actual amps from the blocks & have compression emulate tubes. Same issue with crunch & distortion at gigs. For practice my ear is more content with my BOSS KATANA LOL 😂
There is no physical explanation why a tube amp signal cuts better than a modeler signal. Signal is signal, is whats in the signal that matters. So... if modelers are good for recording, why isnt the same for live situations ? Sound is sound Metallica dont agree with Steve Vai. But wait... Metallica doesnt have a signature amp that they have to sell
I am surprised you like Amplitube so much. I have a number of Amp sim softwares and Amplitube is my least favorite. I think Bias FX 2 is far superior. The Amp models sound much closer to the real thing, and I have a much easier time dialing in the sound I want. And let's face it the guitar modeling is much better in Bias FX 2 and once you add in Tone Cloud is a no contest.
I would bet good money that 99% of you couldn't tell the difference between a real amp and a modeler, once it's pushed through the house. The difference between a real amp/cab and a modeler is that a real amp will push more air, especially in a rehearsal space. You'll feel the lows in your chest and it'll make the hair on your legs move. An FRFR simply doesn't have that ability. However, once that sound is miked and pushed through a PA, it's a completely null point between it and a modeler. They sound identical. The only real difference is the thousands and thousands of dollars you'll save.
@@dasfette There is professional content especially for you to compare similar equipment. The channel is called Sonic drive studio, good luck in development.
You may be right. But one of the joys of playing electric guitar is that powerful sound that you can feel coming out of a cranked amp. The audience may not hear the sonic difference, but the player can feel the difference. As a player, you are playing for the audience, but you are also doing it because it’s your passion.
@@zenlandzipline I don't disagree with any of this. I just think it's nice that we finally live in a time where your choices as a guitarist aren't either spend $800 for a crappy low-end solid state Crate OR, on the other side, spend half your yearly salary and your first-born for a nice-sounding tube Marshall. For $400, you can have more choices than you'll ever use - AND money in your pocket for other cool gear. If you wanna blow $3,300 on a boutique 40W combo, be my guest. Just nice that's it's not the price of admission that it used to be. Plus, let's be honest, for anyone who's ever played a small stage, trying to get a decent mix (whether it's you and the band setting the levels or if you're the actual sound guy), there's nothing more frustrating than trying to mic a 100W Plexi and land it in a mix while trying to keep the cab from blowing out everything else on stage. If you don't know that frustration, you're probably the "too cool" ego guitarist all sound guys despise.
This saddens me. Yngwie's team should see your efforts as helping to build more Malmsteen fans. You are respectfully enshrining his music and brilliant technique. Come on Yngwie, let Tom help all of us out! Maybe Yngwie could do a guest spot with you, it would be super cool (and probably a little intimidating). He needs to be more accessible to his fans; he'll really appreciate our love for his music. @@TomShreds
modelers just don't sound or feel right. they're amazing for a cpl of minutes and then it starts to feel and sound like a cartoon version of the real thing. too consistent, too slick and unnatural. convenient but not for me.
The debate will go on and on….. because of these youtubers hyping the latest Fractal or Kemper or tone master etc…, until you take time to read the comments and see the reality., the reality that some gear most these youtubers trash like the Marshall code (for example) is actually liked by most just by reading what the general public of the guitar world has to say, hype is king 🫤
Hey Shredders! Check out Swedish Shred Secrets & Shred Like Ed here 😎🎸🤘 tomshreds.mykajabi.com/shred_like_ed
I see some people using a modeler with a power amp like the Seymour duncan power stage for more bite. This still keeps the rig size very small and gets the live tone from reviews that I've seen. So you'd still have the helix, power amp and speaker
The Problem is the FRFR...so you have to work with low and high cuts. I use my Helix live for years, but I skip the cab sims..I just use the Amp Moddels and fire up a real Poweramp + Cab with it..I never had the "cut through" Problem
This.
I’m new to this, can you explain what you’re using?
@@ReagorNation Set up a preset just using the Amp model. No virt cab! Route to the line outs and connect the line out to a real power amp (I use the TC BAM 200, or the Orange Pedal Baby 100, but any other power amp will do..even the fx return on a guitar amp). Now set the global high cut to 8khz and the low cut to 80 hz to eliminate the FRFR behaviour (every frequenzy at same volume level -- BAD) Enjoy
This 100%. It gives you all the flexibility you need but stops it sounding like you're playing a recording through a PA. I use a Quad Cortex, run the tone out to a Fryette Power Station valve power section into a 4x10 cab with proper guitar speakers and no cab sim, then I run a version with a cab sim out to the desk.
I never have a cut through problem. I use an FRFR, but it's an Atomic CLR. If you are trying to get that AITR sound, your solution works the best, but I'm pretty happy with the results of my Quad Cortex through my CLR. I also use IEMs in my other band, and it sounds amazing in my ears!
Congrats on 100k, you're going higher and higher, straight up you'll climb!
This hits home… I went digital for years. Then came back. Hard to describe but it’s under the hands for me that modelers can’t replace
Tom…I agree…I use modelers at home but when I play live with the boys I use my trusty old peavey 5150 2x12 60w…sounds fantastic 👍
Yes, I have too sounds like a half stack:)
I used to have that amp and it is an absolute monster
I am using a POD GO with a Yamaha DRB10 in live situation. I have enough volume, headroom, punch and I am so happy!
I use my Helix as a preamp for my amps and I love it!
Agree 100%. I use my Marshall Origin 50 together with Zoom G6 4 cable method and therefore I can get the best of both when playing live. The sound of a real cab on stage is a unique experience for yourself, which no FRFR speaker can replace. That's my opinion
100,001 now! You rock dude! I’ve used the Helix almost exclusively live for 7+ years. It’s great, but I’ve found that for larger outdoor festivals I prefer my 50w 2x12 tube combo amp. I’ve always called tube amps “dummy proof”. You don’t have to be a programmer or engineer to set one up. Just make it loud and it sounds good. That being said I still use the helix 95% of the time for at home practice, rehearsals, or indoor shows; which is what I’m doing most often. Modeler guys say that just getting a traditional guitar cab to use with a modeler is enough but I haven’t found that to be true in my personal experience.
Congrats on hitting 100k subs. You are a great player and educator!
Great channel man. I really think you're a great teacher sir.. ❤
I use a hybrid solution. I run a Fractal in the effects return of a tube amp with a real guitar cab. That gives me the feel and punch of a real tube amp but with the control and flexibility of a modeler.
Same, it works well with a plexi amp.
Hi Tom. Thanks for this video. I get the same feeling. I heard someone say that playing a modeler sounds HiFi. I like this word too (did not know Anemic), it’s like pushing a button and have the perfect sound 🙂 tube amp is the opposite with chaotic frequencies, nuances and dynamic. Modelers are very good at recording without miking and amp and try to find the sweet spot. A good compromise I found on stage is feeding the amp section of a tube amp and its cab with my FM3. Sounds amazing too with more choices for amps and pre effects like distortion, phaser, wha….
Congrats on the 100k subs.
That's a milestone!
The difference you're hearing by comparing the live sound of a software amp into a PA (or FRFR) to a hardware amp into a cab is the fact that models include a microphone in the signal chain. If you compare a mic'ed hardware amp to the software amp, both played back through a monitor, they're the same. If you want the live amp in the room sound from a software amp, turn off the power amp and cab modelling and send the output to your amp's effects return and send it out to your guitar cab. You can only really do that with a modeller (e.g. fractal) but not with a profiler (e.g. tonex, neural).
I use no IR. Go through a Power Amp into a mic'd cab. Still pushing air. Can't tell the difference between the modeler and a tube and most bands we play with use tubes.
You're right. Some people dont realize that modelers are miked sounds. It wont sound like an amp in the room to the player, but to the audience it should sounds exactly the same.
Congrats Tom!! you deserve it!
You're killing it on here Tom, love your work!
That's exactly how I felt with the AxeFX2. For many years of recording, nothing beat it. Live however, my Marshall always cut through the mix way better.......until the AxeFX3 came out. That was game changer.
The real advantage for modellers is how they lock in the tone going direct to front house. Def Leppard, Metallica and even Megadeth have been using them for 10 years+ and that's why. Regardless, for how you hear your tone onstage with any modeller, you gotta find the right power amp for it. Another trick is power amp simulation. Everyone knows to turn off cab sims but sometimes, you also have to turn of "amp simulator." That was also a game changer for me.
Cheers Tom and congrats on hitting 100,000 subs!!
I use AMT LegendAmp pedals for both live and recording.
I use the M2 and P2 pedals, they emulate Marshall and Peavey amps.
Each pedal has 3 outputs: to front of amp, to power amp, and to soundcard with emulated speaker cab.
The front of amp makes the pedal behave like a distortion pedal: bypass and on
The power amp makes the pedal behave like a preamp: clean channel and distortion channel
The soundcard is used for sending to the PA like your Helix or for recordings.
For live I use the power amp output combined with a cheap Harley Benton power amp. I then drive whatever speaker cabinet happens to be available. That way I get to have an amp that isn't heavy. I do depend on a speaker cabinet though.
It might sound extreme, but whenever I run my amp modeler, I end up pushing the mids to its max and almost turning off bass and treble eq on any selected amp. On top of that I use a pre-cut HPF @ 200hz and a LPF usually between 4,5kHz and 6.7kHz. I usually end up with a VOX amp model (with TB off) which by itself already has some reduced bass and pushed mids.
So, lots of mids while cutting back on low and high eq. For me, the advantage of using a modeler live is the consistency of tone.
It really is almost always a mid issue. If it's not cutting through back off the bass and dail up the mids as then your not competing with the bass or other low end. 💯
I have to parrot what’s already been said, you need to use a real guitar cabinet, ideally driven with a solid state power amp as not to add additional coloration (tube amps often add EQ through negative feedback and nonlinearity when driven hard. Also, remember that an IR block or cab sim includes a microphone simulation. When you use an amp on stage you’re listening to the cab directly without a microphone. These are two fundamentally different things.
😅@5:58 I had a sense of what was next…and I was not surprised at what I saw and heard…I had done the same thing 3 months ago! I run my Helix floor into splitter > Marshall SV20H +Marshall DSL40 head into a Marshall 1960 cab dual mono @8ohms.
Super flexible using the SV20H all the time and adding/subtracting the DSL40H using the basic pedal for on/off and channel changing (clean channel green or ultra green[for higher volume and mids]). I am retired, play only once a month, and have muscular help for setup😜.
I live in David, Panama and play at a place called Hops where high volume is tolerated and worshipped 🤗 if you are in town on the third Thursday of the month come in and say HI, would love to meet you❤️❤️❤️❤️
I play about 70-80 shows a year and have been digital for about 6 years. I started with Kemper and still love it for home. I swapped to fractal maybe 3 years ago and love it. I agree it's not the same as a great tube amp. I played Splawn, plexi, SLO, and Mesas for years. I just can't use them anymore to most festivals, street dances, county fairs etc etc needing silent stages and quick switch overs. I still own and love my amps but being able to have a silent stage and quick swaps is critical for a lot of shows. I could run amps for about half of the shows but I prefer consistency and ease of use, I'm old lol.
I had an interesting recent experience as an audience member of a Malmsteen show, where the support act was Ragdoll, featuring the brilliant Leon Todd. Leon used his Fractal FM3, I think with in ears. They sounded great, his guitar sounds were very 'modern marshall'. Then Malmsteen performed, the guitar cut through on a different level, and it wasn't volume, as we know, most of his wall of amps wasn't plugged in or turned on. It wasn't until later in the show where I got the chance to hear his sound without any other instruments that it dawned on me. His sound by itself was shrill and piercing, almost no bottom end, all upper mids, and high frequencies that people with modelers tend to cut in their cab IR stage. By itself it was not what I would deem "good tone"
I feel like this was the key to me, modelers by default tend to represent the ideal sound of a recorded guitar track, all the outboard gear as well. This sounds incredible through headphones, and in a studio, but live, it's swallowed up in compression and bottom end. I too have been a Helix user for some time, I recently grabbed a little Tonex One, my first experience with the Marshall captures was awful (to my ears). They sounded shrill and nasal, harsh and bright, then I realised, shit, this is what my JCM800 used to sound like when I put my head up near the speaker!
There was a guy back in my gigging days (Also in Hobart) that had all the best gear, even rocked the classic Marshall Jubilee at one point, but I could never hear him in the mix, I could never figure out why. I asked the sound guy one time why he didn't turn him up, his response was "it makes no difference, he doesn't have the right frequencies"
And there you have have it!
Just my 2 cents of course, or looking back over this, more like $2
Love your work Tom, from a fellow Tasmanian (left in the early 90's though)
I don't have any substantial experience with modellers. But, as an owner of a Malmsteen strat since 1994, I've struggled to get a good Yngwie tone at lower volumes.
I've heard that the latest modellers are amazing...but I know for certain that a tube amp plus my DOD308 = magic. I tested a small (2w?) amp from a small custom builder years ago and made a huge mistake by NOT buying it.
The new modellers do sound very nice. BUT, I don't want to spend hours screwing around on a computer trying to get tones.
I only need a few good tones.
I'd love to get a small tube amp for home practice like the DSL1 or 5, but I'm not sure that it will get a decent Malmsteen tone.
I know the best way to get that tone is sending a goosed signal into a cranked plexi, but the volume would peel paint.
Another thing not often addressed is FEEL. Tube amps kind of push and pull along with your playing. The interplay is super hard to describe.
Anyway, take care Tom, and thanks for the great videos and lessons! Been a Malmsteen fan for about 35 years.
At 54, I remained intimidated by Yngwie's solos, and barely tried learning them (strangely I can play most of his rhythms, even the fast technical stuffl).
Swedish Shred Secrets have helped me to play some of it. It is a LOT of patient effort, but worth it. I wouldn't have dreamed I could play the first parts of Trilogy (not quite to full speed yet-people underestimate how FAST it is).
I've used a EVH lll 100 watt with a 2X12 cab for a small patio dinner party with no complaints. To good sized club gigs. Also used it at big venues with the matching 4X12 cab set on Edward's recommended settings...that was glorious. I let Gary Hoey use it for one of his gigs. You should've seen the smile on his face when he walked in and saw it sitting there:) Just the head is a pain to lug around though. I got the Micheal Landau Fender Deluxe 2X12 combo 60watt with a Keely modded Boss Blues Driver and you can cover just about any genre with that live. It loves pedals:)
That's a good point, the amp and the sound of good guitar speakers, it's actually hard to make it sound bad...
One thing to remember is that with a modeler through an FRFR, you are not going to get the "Amp in the room" sound. For me, I'm okay with that. I usually use IEMs. When I listened to our band from foh, the guitar sounds great and thats important, but if you are not enjoying yourself on stage playing through an frfr, then going back to amps or using a hybrid solution will probably work better for you. For me, my IEMs sound great in my ears, and having an IEM rig for the whole band gives us consistency every time. When I don't use IEMs, I use my Atomic CLR, and that is the only FRFR that has consistently worked for me. It cuts through on stage, and it is very transparent. I use it to build my live tones.
One other key to building live tone is to build them at gigging volume, then touch them up, playing with your band at practice. I let my band know when I'm trying out new tones, and they give me a little grace to tweak then. Better there than at a live gig. To mimimize this further, in my home studio, I will queue up previously recorded multitrack gigs and re-record my guitar as a DI track, then tweak it without playing. I find that this gets me 95% of the way there and then I barely have to tweak my tones at practice.
You are Crazy Tom 🤪😅
A Marshall correctly 🎤 🔊 miced up is UNBEATABLE!
Later in life, you will look back & regret not having had the pleasure ❤🎸
You got it...EXCELLENT!
The best of both worlds is to just get a great power amp with a real cab. I use the Orange Pedal Baby along with an Orange 212 V30 Cab and it's pretty amazing, pretty darn close to a real amp. I am also an amp purist, but this is so versatile that I keep my Amp heads in the closet now. I am now using all of the outputs on the back of the helix. Two XLR cables going to Monitors on the desk and two speaker cables going to the Orange Pedal baby, all in one spot.
I play in a metal band and a LOT of us are moving towards digital. I've been using Line 6 since 2020. I go through a Power Amp and a mic'd Cab, usually a Marshall or a Mesa. No sound issues. Sounds big. With metal, I think because our tones are so saturated, moving from venue to venue, you want a predictable result. Tube amps are temperamental and if they aren't warmed up, you won't have as much gain as you like. Then you over distort and the sound guy might have to wrestle with feedback, or you tone it down and it just sounds a little dry. The modeler is extremely easy to adapt to each venue. My band has a lot of mids and harmonies so it's no issue. I do think the AC/DC hard rock sound is uniquely better with Tube amps, the same way Les Pauls just really nail that. Everything else I think is done extraordinarily well with modelers. I'm never carrying a head again, LMAO. Never ever. Do you feel differently about profilers vs. modelers?
I go back and forth between IEMs and my Atomic CLR when I can't use IEMs. My CLR is very transparent, has a lot of clarity, and sounds tight and punchy, the way I like it, at loud volumes. The Powercab+ did not work for me at all. The headrush was boomy and washed out at high volumes. My QSC K10 worked okay, as did the DXR10, but none were a match for my CLR. I highly recommend them!
I put a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman as a preamp into the effects loop of my Helix Effects unit, and connect that with the 4CM into a tube amp (studio silver jubilee head and cab or Hot Rod deluxe) It sounds waaay better than the sounds I was getting.
The "Global EQ" is pretty handy. But, as far as girth, and getting a more real Amp sound, I suggest you explore turning up the level on the "Output Node" of the Preset on the Helix hardware. It doesn't take much, as even a 1dB increase is noticeable.
I only recently discovered the wonderful results this particular setting can produce. It is something I can't achieve in any other way on my HX Stomp. It doesn't seem to work the same in Helix Native. There, it just increases the volume without affecting the cumulative gain structure of the entire signal chain as it does in the hardware unit's Output Node. 😎
I dont play any gigs by now so the fractal audio fm3 is perfection for me
I have it too with really good HS7 studio monitors but I find it sounds dark sometimes. It's an amazing unit though
For the past handful of years, I've been using a Line 6 POD HD500X at Church. I use three presets, a generic Clean tone with Chorus & Reverb, a Slash Rhythm tone with a bit of Reverb, and an EVH style Lead Tone with Reverb and Delay. Not at all "appropriate" for the Church Worship style of guitar but no one has been concerned with it so far 😅. I would love to have a wall of Marshalls behind me but using my POD is so much more convenient, despite not using it to its full potential.
all analog pre (pedals ) --> my valve Head quite cranked (jcm 800 or brunetti xl ) in to fryette power station, then line out in to any good modeler efx processor, with a good IR --(then if you want in to stereo or mono wet amp or monitors but having always dry real guitar cab out from fryette for live gigs ).. you can have best of both worlds ,all the analog valve harmonic richness that you feel under your fingers and the control from IR and a touch of ambient from your modeler...sent to PA o recording interface etc..
I am in a VH tribute. I play through a 5150 3 EL34 100w half stack mic’d up the middle dry and Axefx3 ( Atomica Plexi with 2 70 greenback cabs) preset for L&R wet effects to front of house Would like to only use the fractal but I just can’t get that punch and tube bite that comes naturally from 5150.
Try it for recording also, even at low bed room volumes it's way better than a modeler. Thnks for the video!
AMEN!!!! Have you tried the Friedman Preamps the IR-X or the IR-D.
I am about to order toms courses I think. I saw a few clips and he seems to explain very well. He is super helpful & friendly when you contact him via email, classy guy & very talented
Your problem is the power amp section not the modeller itself. Plug your modeller in the FX IN of your amp, tourn off camp sim and there you go. Also try some capture inits like TONEX or QC. The soudstage is so much different from a modeller and maybe that will suiy your needs. But in the end dear Tom we all know that your magic fingers will do the job 🤘
To me, the problem is the need for a real guitar cab. With things like tonex I can really nail the tones, but i can't feel it the same way through the PAs live. I don't think i need my tube amps combos or heads, but a real 1x12 or 2x12 is the secret to the game. I'll get one of these portable poweramps and try it on real guitar cabs with modelers and disable irs. Maybe that with an aby to a ir pedal to the desk. Let's see how it goes.
I’ve bought and sold many modelers and after all of the time and money lost, I’m back to tubes with a few analog pedals.
Interesting, my first modeller was a Vox Tonelab which sounded pretty bad on its own, OK for home recording though. But with the band I'd run it through a Boogie tube power-amp and it sounded fantastic, like a real amp but with total control over routing and effects.
I would love to see a walk through on setting up and plugging into amplitude and how to create some of your tones. I’m new to modelers and my head spins when trying to setup everything. I just plug into my Spark mini and pick a tone from the cloud and I’m off. Love the ease but I want to try amplitude or biasfx2.
I wonder about 2 things:
1) If your Helix emulates a speaker cab
2) If your Helix emulates a microphone recording a speaker cab
Live with a Helix, you want the 1st one, and you need your PA to keep up with the bassist and the drummer for your guitar modeling.
If the venue doesn't provide that, then indeed, switching to your own amp might be the solution... downside is you have to carry it with you.
2nd
I like the simple tube circuits (1959/87 2203/4, etc) because I don't like using ANYTHING that I can't understand and repair by myself. The tube circuits feel and respond differently than non tube circuits for sure........they are more alive and dynamic.
Im wanting an amp modeller just because I am old and I can't carry a lot. Otherwise, I live where you aren't allowed to use amps on stage abd I do play rock. Hard rock! Metal, etc. I will be using a boss amp and a modeller if no amp is allowed. ❤
Since you love modeling and specifically Amplitude... Have you tried the Tonex in the loop of your helix and split the signal to the sub out of the helix with no cab sim into a power amp and cab on stage, and the main outs to foh?
Hi Tom, you should definitely try fractal!!!
When we play live i only use my Helix direct, we all use In ear monitor anyway so it doesn't really make a difference if I use a cab or not and to be fair with my setup it's really hard to notice any difference between the real amp and the helix if you listen from the FOH. Maube you are using the wrong mike and cab combinations or IR . It take time to dial a good tone
What I did was HX stomp into 100 watt Orange baby then into Speakers or HX stomp into 50 watt Vox Hv 50 then into a cab , now pedals into Boss Katana
I am really surprised you like Amplitube, I never got good tone out of it, I am a current Synergy and Fm3 user
its the tube power amp if its fine in 4 cable method check out ritter power amps pedal with real guitar cab
I use a friedman as a power amp and i dont have problems using the boss gt1000 core preamp models.
Have u tried going through the P.A. System?
So you didn’t try a power stage and a 4x12?
Great video.
I use a Headrush Mx5, but I feel like I can't use its whole potential, actually like %20-30. Would you have any recommendations?
Hi Tom, which Piezo system do you use in the RG?
Hey mate! I use a Graph Tech Ghost Floyd Rose. Awesome but expensive.
Helix más etapa de potencia ( tipo s duncan) más gabinete real es también una buena opción .
How did you get a clean tone from the Helix? I've had a hard time achieving those fat super clean tones I've gotten from tube amps. Everything sounds broken up like Stray Cats or thin. The best I've gotten is to remove actual amps from the blocks & have compression emulate tubes. Same issue with crunch & distortion at gigs. For practice my ear is more content with my BOSS KATANA LOL 😂
Hey mate! I used the WhoWatt amp, and added compression before it. Found it to be a very useable clean tone.
@@TomShreds Thanks 😊 for sharing
TomSpeaks.
You're describing the speaker
So, why not other bands using modelers or profilers are not sounding anemic? Iron Maiden, Metallica ,Megadeth and so many others🤔
There is no physical explanation why a tube amp signal cuts better than a modeler signal. Signal is signal, is whats in the signal that matters.
So... if modelers are good for recording, why isnt the same for live situations ? Sound is sound
Metallica dont agree with Steve Vai. But wait... Metallica doesnt have a signature amp that they have to sell
Nothing and I mean nothing suits me more than my Randall RH200🤷
I am surprised you like Amplitube so much. I have a number of Amp sim softwares and Amplitube is my least favorite. I think Bias FX 2 is far superior. The Amp models sound much closer to the real thing, and I have a much easier time dialing in the sound I want. And let's face it the guitar modeling is much better in Bias FX 2 and once you add in Tone Cloud is a no contest.
Usaba bias hasta que probé los plugins de neural dsp. Mucho mejores.
A modeler that has a speaker impedance curve played into a real guitar cab.
One word............................ FRACTAL.
You just need a power amp and a real 4x12, mate.
I would bet good money that 99% of you couldn't tell the difference between a real amp and a modeler, once it's pushed through the house.
The difference between a real amp/cab and a modeler is that a real amp will push more air, especially in a rehearsal space. You'll feel the lows in your chest and it'll make the hair on your legs move. An FRFR simply doesn't have that ability.
However, once that sound is miked and pushed through a PA, it's a completely null point between it and a modeler. They sound identical.
The only real difference is the thousands and thousands of dollars you'll save.
Fake
@@rzproject123 Edgy, thoughtful response.
@@dasfette There is professional content especially for you to compare similar equipment. The channel is called Sonic drive studio, good luck in development.
You may be right. But one of the joys of playing electric guitar is that powerful sound that you can feel coming out of a cranked amp. The audience may not hear the sonic difference, but the player can feel the difference. As a player, you are playing for the audience, but you are also doing it because it’s your passion.
@@zenlandzipline I don't disagree with any of this. I just think it's nice that we finally live in a time where your choices as a guitarist aren't either spend $800 for a crappy low-end solid state Crate OR, on the other side, spend half your yearly salary and your first-born for a nice-sounding tube Marshall. For $400, you can have more choices than you'll ever use - AND money in your pocket for other cool gear. If you wanna blow $3,300 on a boutique 40W combo, be my guest. Just nice that's it's not the price of admission that it used to be.
Plus, let's be honest, for anyone who's ever played a small stage, trying to get a decent mix (whether it's you and the band setting the levels or if you're the actual sound guy), there's nothing more frustrating than trying to mic a 100W Plexi and land it in a mix while trying to keep the cab from blowing out everything else on stage. If you don't know that frustration, you're probably the "too cool" ego guitarist all sound guys despise.
It’s the mids……that’s what’s missing.
If it's good enough for Metallica it's good enough for me, and they've been using digital modellers for over a decade.
“Firm and girthy….”
😐
I really miss the thumb rule video, you removed all the Swedish shredder videos
Most of them are on Daily Motion 😎 I removed them to prevent Yngwie from striking me, but I’ll remake them eventually 🎸🤘
This saddens me. Yngwie's team should see your efforts as helping to build more Malmsteen fans.
You are respectfully enshrining his music and brilliant technique.
Come on Yngwie, let Tom help all of us out!
Maybe Yngwie could do a guest spot with you, it would be super cool (and probably a little intimidating).
He needs to be more accessible to his fans; he'll really appreciate our love for his music. @@TomShreds
Sincerly, I don’t like Helix.
modelers just don't sound or feel right. they're amazing for a cpl of minutes and then it starts to feel and sound like a cartoon version of the real thing. too consistent, too slick and unnatural. convenient but not for me.
Helix is a bit weak compared to Kemper. Kemper with real tube power amp + real cab will probably sound the most "real".
The debate will go on and on….. because of these youtubers hyping the latest Fractal or Kemper or tone master etc…, until you take time to read the comments and see the reality., the reality that some gear most these youtubers trash like the Marshall code (for example) is actually liked by most just by reading what the general public of the guitar world has to say, hype is king 🫤