CORRECTION: You cannot deckbuild with the master set! Turns out it doesn't have the card compatibility I predicted, especially from a "master set". Still, you get a ton of content in the box and it doesn't change the recommender score. -Ashton
My favorite game of all time! So much depth and different types of games included in just the master set, not to mention the other 16 decks (and counting!) that have come out
Quick note about the Undead: you can attack your own units, and while you only get magic when killing enemy units, the Undead Carrier doesn’t ever give you magic anyways! One of the key strats is using Carriers to kill and zombify other friendly units. This “heals” the unit back to 3, procs the on kill effects, and allows the new Carrier to attack again, so you can pull off more damage than expected. It’s not really intuitive on first glance, but without this play the deck lacks a lot of strength.
oooh, thanks for sharing! I still see undead as weaker than others with this possibility, since it doesn't alleviate the issue of having subpar units and the events being very situational. Again, cool ideas, just doesn't have the right strength to compete with others. -Ashton
Undead self killing is very interesting. I am 4w-6L and that includes learning the deck while playing. They definitely don't seem underpowered. This game is about learning the factions combos and tactics :)
Yep, if you're not killing your own units as the undead, you've got a hand tied behind your back. They have a lot of cool abilities that trigger off things dying, including things on their side.
I've played over a hundred games of Summoner Wars and 9/10 games the better player wins. This is by far my favorite board game I've ever played, and I've been able to bring along multiple family members. The master set is actually very balanced, and while the Fallen Kingdom is HARD to play it is in the same ballpark of the other 5 decks. There are now 24 decks out and the 25th and 26th are on their way, and we're talking about the most overpowered deck winning 55% of the time (high enough that the creators have decided that a balance change is underway). For me that's a sign in of itself that this game is right where it needs to be. Could not recommend enough!
An amazing underrated, under the radar game that improved upon its predecessor first edition! Probably not helped by its release during Covid! Current status of the game with its diverse variety of asymmetric factions is brilliant! Now is as good a time as any for someone considering getting into this game, what with lovely new factions coming up periodically and a digital implementation on mobile (and soon to be on PC) as well!!
As one of the people that has asked multiple times over the last couple of years for you to review this game, I really appreciated the review! Sure I wish it would have given you a better time, but a lot of your cons I think are very helpful for those wanting to know if this game is for them. I also wish you would go on to try factions like Skyspear Avians, Wayfarers, or Shadow Elves to really get a taste of the asymmetry, but I can settle for what we got 🙂 also, Fallen Kingdom are a very difficult faction to pilot, but if you ever watch a top player play them, those combos look so enticing… (and no I still cannot play them lol)
I actually think the dice are very reliable. There isn't too much variance. Think it stops it from being weirdly boring and calculable. It's for sure not perfect though.
Regarding the randomness - the better player will almost always win. I’ve played online a lot and the reason for winning is very rarely luck and almost entirely positioning, handling economy well, and tempo.
If you put yourself in a position to get attacked at all, you can play out the turn as if your opponent gets perfect rolls and then determine if that’s a good move
Honest question from a recently new viewer. I first appreciate the honest style review pros/cons but the more video I see, it seems that these guys dont like many games. They dont hate all games, but they certainly dont like many. What is it that they do really like? It would help me gauge if our taste actually alligns at all.
I do like this game! 6/10, above average, means I like it. Not every game is gonna hit the 7+ range personally, since we play so many games. Good places to look for what we like can be our top 10 games or best of 2023 videos! -Ashton
@@Shelfside Thanks I will take a look at your top 10! I am sorry I guess I got conditioned by the internet to see 6-7 rating as not good. Though I understand that everyone has a different opinion, but after seeing a few games rated a 6, I was kind of wondering. So would you say a 6 mean that you would play if someone ask you, but you would usually gravitate towards other games personally or 6 is still within the range that you like a game enough to even propose it yourself during game night?
I love your reviews. Very thorough. I particularly appreciate how you give an unbiased score along with a personal score. Summoner Wars has definitely been on my radar for a while, but I have only ever played the old digital edition. I would love to hear your thoughts on Neuroshima Hex (I know you reviewed Monolith Arena a while back) because I have much more experience playing that one. It would be interesting to hear how it stacks up against the other two-player games you've reviewed. Thanks!
Totally disagree with the point about abilities not being clear and need additional clarification in the rulebook. Often in card games, ability texts are specifically worded, and this game is no different. Imagine a game where you draw 3 cards at the start of your turn and you have a card says "When you draw a card at turn start, you may instead gain 1 mana". If you choose to gain 1 mana do you still draw 3 cards? Of course not, so the same goes for "instead of moving". And this is from someone whose English is not the first language. Reading the card explains the card, anyone with above 5th grade reading comprehension skills should not struggle with specific wordings like this. Agreed about the card layout and rulebook should have beginner guides to each faction tho.
Loved 1st edition, I remember the digital implementation on iOS being pretty good. The new 2nd edition implementation is great as well. I put this game in the category of HeroScape; great fun in middle/high school, nowadays it’s more nostalgia than anything else. I prefer Guards of Atlantis II for my dudes on a map combat. I love the card selection there. Scratches a gloomhaven itch in a duel format
If you enjoy the chess-like positioning with the high fantasy theme, Legacy's Allure is a good one to look at (0 randomness war game, but more intense gameplay) -Ashton
Awesome Review! Lots of valid points, I really do wish that Champions and Summoners had a unique fancier frame to differentiate them more. But I strongly disagree with your opinion of the Fallen Kingdom. They are undoubtedly a difficult faction to play, especially with their low health and niche pay-offs. But I'd argue that it just has a much higher skill ceiling than other Decks, maybe for better or worse. Some players are absolutely monstrous with Fallen Kingdom, the balancing act between bringing your units back from your discard pile, (pretty much only undead warriors) and your pyre timing, is essential to playing them.
I've never agreed with a Shelfside opinion on a game more. I played this game 2 years ago and enjoyed aspects of it, but there were a handful of things that kept me from coming back to it. However, I recently decided to make my own little homebrew version of it just for me and my friends to play around with, and many of the small changes I implemented are exactly the things that you said might make the game better if they were true (like lower health for summoners, adjustments to the undead faction, and other small quality of life tweaks). I left this video not only having enjoyed hearing your perspective, but also feeling (justifiably or not) validated in my own takeaways. Nice.
NEVER use an app as the basis of a review. Few work properly or have an adequate AI. As you pointed out the game was much better when you played a real person.
By the way, discard piles are face down and can only be checked by its controller. Seems like a minor thing but it's a big deal, it brings guess and memory work into the game, kind of a "fog of war" type of effect so to speak where you can't be mathematically certain if a particular card is still in the game until the very end.
Are there any alternative games in this general catchment that you find more satisfying as a former TCG player? On principle, as much as anything, I'm just done with TCGs after I've paid my dues to Wizards of the Coast and then some (and have been for a long time). However, it's not because I didn't enjoy the gameplay mechanics. Anyhow... just wondering if you know of anything that scratches enough of that itch, but without the FOMO and exploitative business model. If not, fair play - plenty of other great stuff to be playing.
Did you actually build any decks with the Master Set? All the summoners can play with customized decks for sure but I thought each of them were associated with two of the twelve different card types, covering the whole spectrum without overlapping. I'd have to go check before doubling down but I thought that was the value proposition. But the second you go and buy the starter or standalone decks, you can absolutely mash those with these.
You are absolutely correct, it's not possible to deck build using only the core set. This channel wants you to think they provide in-depth reviews but errors like this really show how much they actually know about the game.
We didn't build any decks, and yeh it turns out that you can't actually deckbuild anything with this master set. So that is totally on me- usually master sets give possibility to deckbuild. Will make a pinned comment -Ashton
This is probably a silly complaint, but one simple thing that seriously bothers me about this game is the horizontal card printing. I mean I get that it makes sense for the board layout and positional gameplay. But god for pretty much every play early on, since you can't hold and spread the cards like a normal hand, you're constantly thumbing through your hand over and over and over again, only really able to see a single card at a time but trying to remember what each one does. Surely vertically printed cards that can be held properly would not be such a big detriment to the game? I could not agree more about providing more helpful "at a glance" distinctions like using symbols instead of text, using different borders for each type of unit, key information printed on the board, a cheat sheet for each deck, etc. A card holder is a must like you show in the video. Overall I feel like for trying to be such a simpler, more accessible than regular TCG-type game, it has these tiny annoying grievances which prevent it from hitting the table all the time, which I think is necessary for a game like this. Because then we end up forgetting some important minutiae of each class and have trouble remembering combos, matchups, my cards, opponent's cards, etc. So for us it simply does not work as a bust it out once or twice every month type of game which so many games in our board game collections are. But for a small collection I think it's a solid choice. Also your remarks on 'pace of play' were spot on. A lot of thinking is required during many of the phases on your turn, and much of the planning involves tactical responses to your opponent's moves. So playing your turn and then literally leaving the room happens all the time lol
Man am I glad I bought this game before I watched your review. TCG players only like games where you have to sink a lot of money into to being viable for 3 - 6 months until the meta changes and you have to spend again and somehow feel this is better (the reason i stopped playing TCGs). Also would have thought as a TCG player you would have figured out the undead strategy of attacking your own units to multiply carriers but as always TCG players are brainwashed by the game they play and wish for the same mechanics in every other game they play.
I didn't like it either initially but it really grew on me after sticking with it. It's very consistent and I personally appreciate the bright colors in spite of being a goth, myself
CORRECTION: You cannot deckbuild with the master set! Turns out it doesn't have the card compatibility I predicted, especially from a "master set". Still, you get a ton of content in the box and it doesn't change the recommender score. -Ashton
My favorite game of all time! So much depth and different types of games included in just the master set, not to mention the other 16 decks (and counting!) that have come out
Quick note about the Undead: you can attack your own units, and while you only get magic when killing enemy units, the Undead Carrier doesn’t ever give you magic anyways! One of the key strats is using Carriers to kill and zombify other friendly units. This “heals” the unit back to 3, procs the on kill effects, and allows the new Carrier to attack again, so you can pull off more damage than expected. It’s not really intuitive on first glance, but without this play the deck lacks a lot of strength.
oooh, thanks for sharing! I still see undead as weaker than others with this possibility, since it doesn't alleviate the issue of having subpar units and the events being very situational. Again, cool ideas, just doesn't have the right strength to compete with others. -Ashton
Undead self killing is very interesting. I am 4w-6L and that includes learning the deck while playing. They definitely don't seem underpowered. This game is about learning the factions combos and tactics :)
Yep, if you're not killing your own units as the undead, you've got a hand tied behind your back. They have a lot of cool abilities that trigger off things dying, including things on their side.
Half of the cons listed can be solved by simply--playing more than once!
Took me 2 years before I understood that two people run this channel🤣 10/10 videos!
I've played over a hundred games of Summoner Wars and 9/10 games the better player wins. This is by far my favorite board game I've ever played, and I've been able to bring along multiple family members. The master set is actually very balanced, and while the Fallen Kingdom is HARD to play it is in the same ballpark of the other 5 decks. There are now 24 decks out and the 25th and 26th are on their way, and we're talking about the most overpowered deck winning 55% of the time (high enough that the creators have decided that a balance change is underway). For me that's a sign in of itself that this game is right where it needs to be. Could not recommend enough!
An amazing underrated, under the radar game that improved upon its predecessor first edition! Probably not helped by its release during Covid!
Current status of the game with its diverse variety of asymmetric factions is brilliant! Now is as good a time as any for someone considering getting into this game, what with lovely new factions coming up periodically and a digital implementation on mobile (and soon to be on PC) as well!!
As one of the people that has asked multiple times over the last couple of years for you to review this game, I really appreciated the review!
Sure I wish it would have given you a better time, but a lot of your cons I think are very helpful for those wanting to know if this game is for them.
I also wish you would go on to try factions like Skyspear Avians, Wayfarers, or Shadow Elves to really get a taste of the asymmetry, but I can settle for what we got 🙂 also, Fallen Kingdom are a very difficult faction to pilot, but if you ever watch a top player play them, those combos look so enticing… (and no I still cannot play them lol)
Just picked this up at a used game sale and we are loving it and all the customization.
I actually think the dice are very reliable. There isn't too much variance. Think it stops it from being weirdly boring and calculable.
It's for sure not perfect though.
Regarding the randomness - the better player will almost always win. I’ve played online a lot and the reason for winning is very rarely luck and almost entirely positioning, handling economy well, and tempo.
If you put yourself in a position to get attacked at all, you can play out the turn as if your opponent gets perfect rolls and then determine if that’s a good move
100% correct
Honest question from a recently new viewer. I first appreciate the honest style review pros/cons but the more video I see, it seems that these guys dont like many games. They dont hate all games, but they certainly dont like many. What is it that they do really like? It would help me gauge if our taste actually alligns at all.
I do like this game! 6/10, above average, means I like it. Not every game is gonna hit the 7+ range personally, since we play so many games. Good places to look for what we like can be our top 10 games or best of 2023 videos! -Ashton
@@Shelfside Thanks I will take a look at your top 10!
I am sorry I guess I got conditioned by the internet to see 6-7 rating as not good. Though I understand that everyone has a different opinion, but after seeing a few games rated a 6, I was kind of wondering.
So would you say a 6 mean that you would play if someone ask you, but you would usually gravitate towards other games personally or 6 is still within the range that you like a game enough to even propose it yourself during game night?
I love your reviews. Very thorough. I particularly appreciate how you give an unbiased score along with a personal score. Summoner Wars has definitely been on my radar for a while, but I have only ever played the old digital edition. I would love to hear your thoughts on Neuroshima Hex (I know you reviewed Monolith Arena a while back) because I have much more experience playing that one. It would be interesting to hear how it stacks up against the other two-player games you've reviewed. Thanks!
Totally disagree with the point about abilities not being clear and need additional clarification in the rulebook. Often in card games, ability texts are specifically worded, and this game is no different. Imagine a game where you draw 3 cards at the start of your turn and you have a card says "When you draw a card at turn start, you may instead gain 1 mana". If you choose to gain 1 mana do you still draw 3 cards? Of course not, so the same goes for "instead of moving". And this is from someone whose English is not the first language. Reading the card explains the card, anyone with above 5th grade reading comprehension skills should not struggle with specific wordings like this.
Agreed about the card layout and rulebook should have beginner guides to each faction tho.
Kinda curious: Would made you “retire” from TCGs?
Hosted a birthday party and a friend asked, "Why are so many of your games still in the shrink wrap? Is that on purpose?" I was speechless.
Would love to see your review for Crystal Clans or Lost Empires: War for the New Sun.
I guess while we're at it, Sakura Arms review please.
2nd Edition is so much better than 1e
@Shelfside You are correct ! 19:30 The texts are really small and hinder the effects.
haha amen! Surprised I haven't heard more complaints on it online -Ashton
I just played this for the first time…pretty much bought everything for it
Same here, amazing game with a great amount of depth to it!
Loved 1st edition, I remember the digital implementation on iOS being pretty good. The new 2nd edition implementation is great as well. I put this game in the category of HeroScape; great fun in middle/high school, nowadays it’s more nostalgia than anything else.
I prefer Guards of Atlantis II for my dudes on a map combat. I love the card selection there. Scratches a gloomhaven itch in a duel format
THE game that got me started.... Forever grateful
LOL, when you become popular reviewing content, the demands will come.
I'm surprised you don't have more likes on your videos.
Your previous experience as a TCG player definitely shines in this review, great stuff, hope to see more
My fave game ever!!!!!
Great review. I am curious what you would recommend in its place.
If you enjoy the chess-like positioning with the high fantasy theme, Legacy's Allure is a good one to look at (0 randomness war game, but more intense gameplay) -Ashton
I want to see a review of exceed! Maybe the Guilty Gear board game (its exceed, but the guilty gear season) which just delivered like 2 months ago.
I think GG would be more likely! Adam wanted to do a deep dive :) -Ashton
Still waiting for the John Company review 😢
I thought you couldn't deckbuild with the master s et because no two decks have matching symbols...
You're correct. I'm gonna make a pinned post about this. -Ashton
Awesome Review! Lots of valid points, I really do wish that Champions and Summoners had a unique fancier frame to differentiate them more. But I strongly disagree with your opinion of the Fallen Kingdom. They are undoubtedly a difficult faction to play, especially with their low health and niche pay-offs. But I'd argue that it just has a much higher skill ceiling than other Decks, maybe for better or worse. Some players are absolutely monstrous with Fallen Kingdom, the balancing act between bringing your units back from your discard pile, (pretty much only undead warriors) and your pyre timing, is essential to playing them.
I've never agreed with a Shelfside opinion on a game more. I played this game 2 years ago and enjoyed aspects of it, but there were a handful of things that kept me from coming back to it. However, I recently decided to make my own little homebrew version of it just for me and my friends to play around with, and many of the small changes I implemented are exactly the things that you said might make the game better if they were true (like lower health for summoners, adjustments to the undead faction, and other small quality of life tweaks). I left this video not only having enjoyed hearing your perspective, but also feeling (justifiably or not) validated in my own takeaways. Nice.
Sounds like you should try BattleCon devastation of indines ;)
NEVER use an app as the basis of a review. Few work properly or have an adequate AI. As you pointed out the game was much better when you played a real person.
Hard disagree. The guys who made the app did a great job and it’s just as fun to play ASYC games than irl
Would love it if you guys could review Hybris Disordered Cosmos.
damn bro u savage, but thanks for keeping it real
By the way, discard piles are face down and can only be checked by its controller. Seems like a minor thing but it's a big deal, it brings guess and memory work into the game, kind of a "fog of war" type of effect so to speak where you can't be mathematically certain if a particular card is still in the game until the very end.
yep, I just discarded faceup out of habit. You can see Adam discarding his facedown. -Ashton
What's the game at 25:24?
Re;ACT
Are there any alternative games in this general catchment that you find more satisfying as a former TCG player? On principle, as much as anything, I'm just done with TCGs after I've paid my dues to Wizards of the Coast and then some (and have been for a long time). However, it's not because I didn't enjoy the gameplay mechanics. Anyhow... just wondering if you know of anything that scratches enough of that itch, but without the FOMO and exploitative business model. If not, fair play - plenty of other great stuff to be playing.
a couple that come to mind are: Solforge, SWU, Ashes Reborn -Ashton
Pagan, Netrunner (Null Signal Games), Warhammer 40k Conquest (Apoka), Vampire Eternal Struggle (for 4-5 players), Vampire Rivals, Codex
Did you actually build any decks with the Master Set? All the summoners can play with customized decks for sure but I thought each of them were associated with two of the twelve different card types, covering the whole spectrum without overlapping. I'd have to go check before doubling down but I thought that was the value proposition. But the second you go and buy the starter or standalone decks, you can absolutely mash those with these.
You are absolutely correct, it's not possible to deck build using only the core set. This channel wants you to think they provide in-depth reviews but errors like this really show how much they actually know about the game.
We didn't build any decks, and yeh it turns out that you can't actually deckbuild anything with this master set. So that is totally on me- usually master sets give possibility to deckbuild. Will make a pinned comment -Ashton
YOU ARE AWESOME! ❤❤❤
This is probably a silly complaint, but one simple thing that seriously bothers me about this game is the horizontal card printing. I mean I get that it makes sense for the board layout and positional gameplay. But god for pretty much every play early on, since you can't hold and spread the cards like a normal hand, you're constantly thumbing through your hand over and over and over again, only really able to see a single card at a time but trying to remember what each one does. Surely vertically printed cards that can be held properly would not be such a big detriment to the game? I could not agree more about providing more helpful "at a glance" distinctions like using symbols instead of text, using different borders for each type of unit, key information printed on the board, a cheat sheet for each deck, etc. A card holder is a must like you show in the video. Overall I feel like for trying to be such a simpler, more accessible than regular TCG-type game, it has these tiny annoying grievances which prevent it from hitting the table all the time, which I think is necessary for a game like this. Because then we end up forgetting some important minutiae of each class and have trouble remembering combos, matchups, my cards, opponent's cards, etc. So for us it simply does not work as a bust it out once or twice every month type of game which so many games in our board game collections are. But for a small collection I think it's a solid choice. Also your remarks on 'pace of play' were spot on. A lot of thinking is required during many of the phases on your turn, and much of the planning involves tactical responses to your opponent's moves. So playing your turn and then literally leaving the room happens all the time lol
You should check out flesh and blood
Stay out of CCGs people! They're full of investors and pay-to-win. Not for gamers who actually want to play a game.
What's the game at 1:26?
Wizards of the Grimoire. It's available on BGA, and we have a review for it -Ashton
Man am I glad I bought this game before I watched your review. TCG players only like games where you have to sink a lot of money into to being viable for 3 - 6 months until the meta changes and you have to spend again and somehow feel this is better (the reason i stopped playing TCGs). Also would have thought as a TCG player you would have figured out the undead strategy of attacking your own units to multiply carriers but as always TCG players are brainwashed by the game they play and wish for the same mechanics in every other game they play.
loved summoner wars 1, didn't get into summoner wars 2. really didn't like the new art.
I didn't like it either initially but it really grew on me after sticking with it. It's very consistent and I personally appreciate the bright colors in spite of being a goth, myself
The new art was why I bought it lol. I hated the old art, but the new art is fantastic!
I like the old art too.
The 1ed was so much more swingy with dice though. I like how commons are more viable compared to champions.
Lmao the art in the 2nd edition is one of the reasons why I bought it