Exploring Space Lava Tubes: How To Prepare For It
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- Lava tubes can be a solution to a lot of our space problems. They can provide habitat space on Moon, Mars and even beyond. But how do we prepare to explore them? That's what we're discussing with Professor Francesco Sauro.
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00:00 Intro
01:16 Getting into caves
02:32 Why lava tubes are interesting
04:00 Challenges of the caves
08:10 How to train astronauts for lava tubes
15:15 What can we find in lava tubes on Moon and Mars
20:32 Lava tubes as habitats
27:57 Ice caves on Europa, Enceladus and Mars
32:15
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They should attempt to transform a cave into a liveable habitat like spraying some sort of sealant on the walls and install an airlock analog on the cave entrance to prepare us to do it on the moon or on Mars.
Another method could be to carry inflatable habitat sections into the cave of the appropriate dimensions. Then inflate and connect them.
@Stu Bur Yup. I could even see a 4 step process:
Step 1: Send a smallish rocket-powered drone into a Lava Tube being steered by an astronaut on the rim of the lava tube to map out and scan the lava tube to gether its dimensions.
Step 2: Land a lander from orbit down inside the hole of the Lava tube with everything they will need to make the Lava tube airtight.
Step 3: Replicate the cave on Earth and train a team of astronauts how to seal the cave properly while wearing space suits.
Step 4: Have a rocket land right on the edge of the lava tube with a descending platform so that astronauts can go down into the lava tube and work for the day and ride an elevator back up out of the lava tube so they can directly go back into the safety of the Starship lunar lander... rinse and repeat until they are done.
The origional idea needs no help just to find an elastomer that cures in a co2 ritch environment.
@@winstonmontgomery8211 : There's no need for a rocket, though cables & balloons (to lift grappling hooks into place for a heavier vehicle to pull itself up) may be good supplements to any spelunking rover.
@Jared Maddox Oh hey there. You just gave me a great idea... sort of haha. What if instead of having an astronaut in the surface of the moon pilot a drone that would float in the "air" by using micro-jet-thrusters placed on the bottom and sides (which would arguably be pretty bad ass) we could just land a "smallish" unmanned craft down into the opening 🕳 from orbit and have it land softly on the floor of the lava-tube and then have it do a quick look about and then have it aim down the tube and shoot multiple projectiles about the size of a basketball with scanning sensors on them and then have them relay the info back to the lander and then up out off the lava tube where it's signal would be picked up by an orbiting satellite and relayed back to Earth. By doing it that way then we would have one less manned trip to the moon. Thanks for getting my brain to rehash my first initial idea. Bravo 👏 👏 👏
I would like to see construction rovers developed and sent to the moon and then Mars. These could first demonstrate proof of concept by digging trenches, setting up power stations, recharging themselves via a base, processing materials into useful products such as tiles, building landing pads, placing rocket sections and inflatable habitats into trenches, connecting sections, adding doors, and covering the habitats and garages with materials for protection. They could start as robotic colonies with practice habitats, perhaps even growing some plants and fungi. Then they can eventually lead to full preparatory teams to build starter bases for humans to visit and live inside.
That’s pretty similar to the Mars Direct Architecture described by Dr. Robot Zubrin & the Mars Society.
We’re so lucky that during our lifetimes we’ll be able to explore these things.
I clicked this so fast because I couldn't wait to hear Fraser pronounce lava over and over again
ALTSO
Love the subtle Canadian accent
My wife and I heard it, I turned to her and said, “that is Canadian for lava.”
Glad I'm not the only one that's enjoyed spelunking but gotten freaked out by cramped spots! Thanks for this really interesting interview, Fraser!
❤️❤️
Thanks so much for the chapters. I really appreciate it!
would have been cool to see some footage of exploring lava tube on earth in this ep also.
Of coarse, the first thing to ship there is plenty of "Lava Lamps".
A cavern is great for using the natural ground above as shielding against micrometeors. A surface building would require serious maintenance if struck.
I think the threat of micrometeorite strikes is overstated in terms of the moon or mars. The moon's surface was formed over many millions of years. Even less so on Mars, where the tenious atmosphere sets a lower limit on impactor size, and thus frequency. Regardless, on both the primary surface that makes caves desirable is the threat of radiation.
However if landing spacecraft near to an existing surface outpost, caves offer great protection against debris kicked up during landing by the rocket exhaust.
Yes, but getting enough air to fill a multi-kilometer long lava tube is a nearly impossible problem.
My wife son and explored the Ape lava tubes in WA state they are huge.
Been there many times. Total explorable tube length is something like 1.3 miles, so fun
I've been lured into watching a few too many 'caving gone wrong' tragedy videos here on TH-cam, to not have that front and centre of mind as I watched this. It is of course a very good idea on other celestial bodies.
Hola Frasier! Question: it's said that the moon was created after the collision of Thei with Earth. As both Earth and the new moon were forming, and cooling from this impact, (and must have contained similar materials) would the moon have generated an atmosphere for a period of time?? If so, for potentially how long? Thanks!
good interview. I can see why the work on surface habitats is seeing a lot of work. I think lava tubes and assume large places but all of the caves I have visited (some in Alberta and some on Vancouver Island) have had very few large caverns... and the way to get to those caverns has not been spacesuit (EVA suit?) friendly. One would not want to land too close to such a shelter either as the vibrations or shock waves could easily cause cave-ins. Hmm, I had thought in the past that caves would be a good place to live on moons or other planets but I think now that it would be harder to build a habitat in a cave than on the surface even assuming the surface habitat was covered in surface material with some hardener.
Remember, caves & lava tubes will be much larger on the moon & Mars, esp on the moon. The moon has ~16% & Mars has 37.6% of the gravity of the earth.
I really feel on Mars that we may find life hiding in the lava tubes especially if they are really old. We really should be looking there instead besides looking in extinct riverbeds. What would happen if we did find life there? What if we find a Sarlacc 😉
Then the unlucky Marstronauts will be slowly digested over 1000 years.
Really fantastic interview, Fraser! Thanks! 😃
It's great that he's taking NASA's scientists for those explorations. Because they're too focused on the geology of Mars... Or they just don't have a clue on how to look for life.
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
There's a /lot/ of info and techniques on looking for life, there's been some solid research on how to do so and discern it from other things. Cost & weight are the problems, not the techniques.
Glad I found your channel. Always interesting.
Great interview. Thank you for this.
I've always thought that caverns and these lava tubes can be relatively easily sealed and turned into habitats for humans...
I have seen sections of underground mines (on earth) where lunch rooms and workshop areas have been created by spraying the walls with a cement mix called spraycrete to reduce dust and water problems. Maybe a version could be used in space caves?
@@boballanson8671 Yeah! I was thinking of something like polyurethane spray cans used here on earth to seal walls/windows and so on...
@@matteogiberti3297 Or just insert a polyethylene balloon and inflate it. They make really big balloons for high altitude flight.
Polyurathanes are not chemically stable over long time periods that is a big downside for the wonder material that it is.
But many other polymers exist that are practically stable for ever, polyethylenes and similars as someone else mentioned in the comment (a bag/film of pe).
With enough energy at hand there is always the option to use lasers to melt and sinter the walls and even insitu creating silicon/iron/aluminium with methods already discussed by Fraser a few months ago because there is no oxygen that would oxidize the formed metals. Many many options.
Sign me up, I would gladly help build systems but also do the grunt and long tedious work when I have a good chance of getting home to my family in one piece.
@@blueredbrick Stability is relative. Polyethylene is pretty good but is subject to biological attack on earth.
Polypropylene is better.
Polyvinyl chloride or polytetrafluoroethylene has a longer life in wet environments (people are wet) but are less flexible. Polyvinylcyanide is another option (you may be more familiar with its other name - acrylic).
Wow what an interesting perspective! Great guest.
I like the way you say lava.
I have spent time exploring lava tubes in my home state. I love the idea, but I also have reservations. I would recommend a specialized drone, rather than having humans go in blind. Navigating a place like a lava tube can be very hard on clothing, let alone a space suit. One sharp rock would ruin your day.
Very interesting!
Are these caves and lava tubes being considered for exploration or habitats? By the lack of exits and safety, caves have to rendered safe and code compliant. Have you seen how tunneling is done and mining shafts are built on Earth? On Mars, the geology has to be evaluated thoroughly before even considering such structures. How stable are the lava tubes? They need to be.lined with airtight form fitting cladding to be pressurized. There's needs to be testing here on earth for converting these caves into habitats
We don't have time for all that crap. This is wild west cowboy stuff. Ain't no OSHA on Mars thank god.
Unlike mines, caves tend to be relatively stable over long periods of time because they have already had thousands to millions of years of seismic events and temperature fluctuations to fall to a stable layout.
I think that space habitats will eventually use both caves and mines as habitats and we will have to learn how to use both of them as safely as feasible.
Mines will be more flexible in site locations and can enable extraction of resources but require a lot of reinforcements such as bolts. We don’t know enough about the geology of the moon or Mars yet to determine the safety standards required. How many bolts into the walls, how long are the bolts going to need to be, how far apart, and what materials to use for the bolts are just a few of the many questions to answer.
Thus I think it will be more feasible to start with existing caves as they are going to be more stable as is and require less reinforcement. As humans live in them, that stability could be degraded but that will be part of their ongoing science and engineering tasks.
To fully develop colonies on other worlds, we will have to master mining, manufacturing, and construction in these environments.
code compliant LOL!!! from the local township government on Mars?
@@element5377 if we require certification, safety rules and regulations here on Earth, you can be sure the compliance will be much higher on Mars where one accident or catastrophic failure would setback a space program for years
Interesting topic!
Astronaut Joe gets assigned to explore a cave on the planet Mars. Astronaut Joe and Astronaut Dave stand on a bluff overlooking the entrance to the cave. Astronaut Dave says, "I bet that there are _things_ in that cave that like to eat people."
Wow, I didn't realize there was a place on the web for intelligent, but intriguing, talk without any zingers; will come here often.
YAYYYYYYYYY ! LAVA TUUUUUUUUUBE !
Thank you !🥰
inflatable habitats with puncture resistant outerlayers is a must because of risk of cave ins, if inflatable the near earth pressure would support the cave in a most space efficient way. Good enough even if you pour on top of cave tunnell for radiation shielding and even though life inside habitat will create vibrations and heat the cave has not seen in a long time..
Fascinating topic but what's with the *very* distracting background music? Thanks as always for yet another great discussion.
I have to say that I give this interview a super like ❤. It opened my eyes to the chance of undersurface life possibilities 🤔
If earth is little dust in the universe mathematically I don’t exist I guess , brave and hopeful those they work tireless to conquer the next frontier. Aren’t we an amazing nothing. Thank Ing F Cain and the teem ,all the supporters and viewers .
The last thing that my head went through that my body could follow was a birth canal..
Cool interview. I want to visit a high tech cave city with many connected and colonized tubes before I die. I don't think it's an entirely unreasonable desire.
Is there an equivalent to a space toilet (microgravity commode) for multi day cave diving? Surely the diver does not poop in the cave, or do they?
I've always wondered why Dr Bill Stone has never been interviewed on this channel?
I'm an engineer. When humans first land on Mars, they must have ample power available.
Nuclear generators must be available when they land. Following the redundancy rules, 2 or 3 reactors must be sent ahead of time. They must be tested and operating before the Mars-0-nauts leave Earth. ..
Humans must live underground on Mars. Their underground homes should be available when they land. Food and water should all be there. .. This is how you apply the engineering method to the problem.
Engineers are better than scientists.
Reduce the risk.
We have the perfect R and D place for that just a couple of days away with half the gravity well.
Much less risk.
Should include solar power in addition to multiple nuclear reactors. Dissimilar systems for added resiliency.
@@ferengiprofiteer9145 .. I agree with you. .. However, so many people want to get to Mars ASAP. ..
I'm in no hurry to get to Mars. ..
This was described more than 30 years ago, yup
@@bimmjim Mars is a good place to develop robot probes I guess, or prospecting and mining. But if we want a space habitat, we have a wonderfully challenging prospect right on our doorstep. If we can make it there, we can make it anywhere.
Hey Fraser! Would utilizing human waste as a method to protect astronauts from harmful radiation during an extended space flight be a viable option? It’s my understanding that for the most part astronauts try to dispose of these materials, but if used in this manner I feel like it would be incredibly resourceful. I know how good water is at defeating ionizing radiation, so to me it seems like a no brainer. Thanks, love your work.
I didn't actually know (or had forgotten!) the plural of mare (on the Moon) before this. I should've known an Italian astronomer would know: it's 'maria (accent on the 1st syllable).
Why don't you put professors name in the title? Or at least in the thumbnail? I really like your interviews but i'm not that interested in q&as for example - it would be great to see clearly which video is what type of content. Also I think it would be great for the search algorithm one could find the interviews by names... Thank you for everything you do Fraser!
A simple cheap way to bring heat and water into Mars tunnels is by steam pipes. Today 105 miles of steam pipes heat buildings in NYC. On Mars, steam is a natural result of concentrated solar melting of rock to extract minerals and water. Filtered wastewater can be returned as a charming artificial cool stream flowing back with plants, koi fish, etc.
One thing at a time, set up a surface base, then later bring in the cave exploring scientists.
Lavatories, hahahaha! I'll see myself out...
Fraser is discussing with Professor Francesco Sauro how we will explore Otherworldly Caves with Rovers. Francesco is supposed to know a lot about exploring Earth caves, so why did he say we don’t have rovers on Earth???
I commented about a show that was made over 5 years ago about a six-wheeled Limited Intelligence Automated Robot that could decide what terrain is safer to rove over. I’m sure these two know more than I do about caves, but my father was a diver before I was born. I remember him saying when he dove he wasn’t crazy enough to Cave Dive because if anything happened he couldn’t swim to the surface.
I have commented about a Lidar Radar that could be sent underwater to make sub-ocean-floor maps or even fly into caves to map the cave before risking human lives. What I’m getting at is that we as humans have more technology than Professor Sauro and Fraser discuss, and we had it for years… So why are these guys trying to keep it secret?
I’m sure that when Francesco said we don’t have Rovers on Earth like we will be using on the Moon, was because of the low gravity of Mars and the Moon can’t be imitated on Earth, as far as I know… Fraser suggested we use an Ingenuiy type Rover to map the caves with Lidar Radar like has been done on Earth.
discovery com/space/meet-ingenuity-nasa-s-first-mars-helicopter
I found out about Toroidal Propellers that make less noise and need less power that we could use on Mars, less power means that an Ingenuity has more time to map the caves of Mars. On Earth, they might be miss taken as UFOs at night.??
This Genius Propeller Will Change Transport Forever is brought to us by Ziroth; th-cam.com/video/MGy8jvf-DZ0/w-d-xo.html
One reason we don't use rovers in Earth caves is we have people, some of whom like caves.
Lidar is used in mapping caves, because caves are irregular in shape, and it's just so much quicker than old-school surveying equipment.
And your dad wasn't stupid, there aren't many *_old_* cave divers.
Watched a video on cave exploring and divers a few weeks ago on Top5s.
No way in heck I wanna do either. 😩
A helicopter rover would be perfect to explore the mars tubes. Fly in, do some exploration, fly out, recharge batteries and report back to earth.
I am 100% in on the idea of a permanent Moon base, possibly producing fuel for a low-gravity space launch program. Mars, otoh, is a complete waste of time for human habitation.
If there's a spot in Venue's atmosphere that is at 1 atm and 70°F, is there an analogous point deep enough inside Mars?
In theory, at the bottom of a deep well on Mars you could get 1 atm. About 30 km down.
perfect place for an inflatable habitat as a first step
We walk on the ground and don't know about the sinkhole or old mineshaft.
Digging down, we don't know about the ceiling of the high cavern that we're standing on.
Hi Fraser: what is your take on Stephen Hawking's quote from 2017, that the emergence of artificial intelligence could be the "worst event in the history of our civilization". Is it possible that many of us futurists are being too optimistic that AI will a force for overall good, and that we are just fooling ourselves, and Hawking might be correct?
I suspect Hawking is correct. I don't think enough resources are being put into AI safety, and the new arms race between Google and Microsoft are putting more powerful tools in play without spending the time to understand how it actually works.
@@frasercain Might be outside your area, but I would love to see an interview on this subject. Maybe a review of space mission fails due to software?
lava tubes in the moon ... wouldn't they be good cold traps for ice?
You do get to know your fellow spelunkers. I was never crazy enough to do ice caves or cave diving.
Maybe dearMoon crew should do a cave.
Unlikely, unless there's a big catastrophe - dearMoon isn't going to land on the surface 😉
Would an Underwater Air Pocket be considered a cave as well?
in ice?
Why lava tubes particularly?
My biggest fear is squeezing thru a narrow spot while scuba diving in a deep cave. I enter a vast & wondrous room, promptly exploring it.
When it’s time to leave… I look back to see FOUR openings in the wall from which I came! Which one do I pick, with only a little air left? That’s scary.
You have either not actually done a cave or cavern dive; or you did it without proper training and a certified dive master for this. Very first rule is 1/3 air in, 1/3 air out, 1/3 air reserve.
@@terrysullivan1992 Thanks for mentioning that. You're right, I'm not a scuba diver. I just wanted to give other non-divers the sense of panic I got when someone told me the story. It freaked me out.😲
Sometimes I have nightmares that I'm crawling through tight spaces.
are Lava Tubes air tight ?
No, they are not. Lava shrinks and cracks as it cools.
It's a shelter for meteorites
What kind of materials can we use to protect against the radiation of the martian surface if we were to Build on the surface?
The tanks of water that you'd need anyway for survival, and Martian soil is freely available. Just bulldoze it against and on top of your habitation buildings.
Pile regulife on top of buildinga
Notice that you'd effectively be underground again, just man-made underground instead of lava tubes.
If you have a nice view on Mars, you're getting a face-full of radiation.
You could have nice panoramic windows, but you'd want them set up with a couple of mirrors like a periscope.
Whatever you found that worked on the surface of the moon.
We have the perfect laboratory just a couple days away.
And it's only half the gravity well.
It's almost like we were set up with the perfect situation to learn to explore the universe.
Masonry, simple cut stones anchored with steel rods or fitted stones. Meanwhile everyone is envisioning using 3d printing when binders, conditions and predictable mineral mixes are difficult to achieve.
even thinking about/imagining caving gives me the willys . couldn't do it !!
Musk has a number of companies, most of which will be useful for life on Mars. It’s no coincidence. Electric motors, vehicles, batteries, solar power conversion, tunnel boring machinery, robots, and Artificial Ian intelligence, to name a few. Rockets and spacecraft to name the important one. I thinkMusk has a very serious plan to combine his technologies to allow for heavy engineering on Mars. A balance of above ground facilities and u derground habitats/facilities that will allow for human life. Robots may become useful for some surface work, the dangerous, repetitive work. Lava tubes may be useful, however caves are always dangerous due to risk of collapse or rockfall. It takes enormous work to fully line and engineer a rounded rock hole into a safe habitat, conceivably not worth the effort as an option. Probably fun to explore but we don’t know enough yet. The challenges of growing food, making fuel, making industrial bases will be primary for the first few decades on Mars. Hard dangerous work.
0:18 no way this is a real picture.right?
And in some thousands of years into the future the southern lava tube will declare war against the northern lava tube because of how they have two scopes of algae to desserts instead of only one as all decent people do and large battles will be fought on the surface of Mars we can watch trough our telescopes
Too short!
When we go to other planets, we become cave men again...
Why are the lava tubes empty and not filled with solidified lava that is now rock?
The molten lava in a lava tube can drain away after its source has stopped, leaving an empty lava tube.
Space Cave Men; the more things change . . .
Why AREN'T remote-controlled drones used more in Earth caves? Seems much easier and safer.
Try flying a drone through your own home and see how it goes. Then do it again and fly no higher than 3 feet. You may want to try this experiment without pets and spouses present.
Some caves have quite delicate formations that you don't want to damage. Maybe try your test flights during the season of extreme decoration (aka Christmas).
FYI radio waves that we use to control drones don't penetrate well through rock so exploration would be pretty much limited to line of sight.
- so sayeth this caver and rf engineer. Cheers!
Addendum: If you could develop a drone that could fly through a crawl space, right itself if it hit something and landed upside down, and could send back pictures with pan/tilt/zoom then I am pretty sure you would have a product that a lot of termite inspectors would really want to have.
Cos radio doesn't work reliably out of line of sight. I've seen what needs to be done with cave exploration robot competitions. It's hard, the robots must either work autonomously or trail wire.
@@richardfellows5041 Actually drones with self righting capabilities and cameras exist. It is the radio frequency communications that are an issue which is why fibre optics are used for pipeline internal inspection with tracked inspection vehicles (think toy tank with a camera and a 100m power cord).
At least the explorers won’t need to worry about dangerous gases.
Fantastic interview! It'sthe way to go for sure. Boring company anyone.?.
Boring like this guest I’ll rather hang out in the surface.
Not gonna lie 80% here to hear Fraser say lava.
I want to share your fascination with lava tubes, but its just not in me.
Going into a deep mine shaft can be helpful.
The difference between a mine shaft and a lava tube
Is GRAVITY !
A lava tube may be
safer !
Mars lava tubes will not be easier than the moon because
Mars has gravity !
DML
For emergency Mars lave tube exit, Musk will likely have a prop vehicle or jet assisted, I thought I saw a Royal Marines used a jet suit they call a gravity suit to go from a moving rigid hull inflatable to a surface ship, Mars astronauts could get by with a lighter jet suit.
He's Italian so he's talking with his hands, which is only bad because they get blurred out and that's very^2 distracting!!! 8-P
its pronounced "LAW-va".............. not "Laaaaaav-a"
It's _LeviOsa,_ not _LeviosA._
@@massimookissed1023thats not a thing.
I think you like talking about lava just so you can mispronounce lava.
I'm Canadian, I have an accent. I keep meaning to do a video where I walk around and get people in my town to pronounce the word so you'll see that we say it the same way.
@@frasercain The head office for my shop is based out of Toronto so I work with Canadians on a daily basis. I'm totally gonna get them to say "lava" tomorrow and put that to the test! Love the content Fraser, even if you say "lava" wrong 🤠
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