Is the Lord of the Rings a Christian Story? (With Tolkien Scholar Dr. Steve Fratt)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Get LuLu the Beaver by Bethany Gano at luluthebeaver.com
I'm asking Tolkien scholar, Dr. Steve Fratt about the Christian themes in Tolkien's Middle Earth world.
Thanks to Jeff Foote (jefffoote.band...) for making the music that played in the background and thanks to Dylan Holden (@dylanholdenart on Instagram) for the original Gandalf art used in the thumbnail.
Honestly one of the most beautiful things I've seen, seeing an older man tear up because he feels like he's achieved what God put him on this earth for, I hope to experience that one day.
After my wife left me 2 years ago, after 25 years of good marriage, I felt like Gandalf facing the Balrog and falling into the abyss. No one knows what happens down there - it's just you and the Monster, but life can be just like that some times. A shout-out to all who experience a crisis which shatters your life, don't give up - but seek the Lord, he can give you strength to defeat the Balrog (which is yourself in some sense, but also something demonic). Ultimately Gandalf rose victoriously, only no longer grey, but white. I pray that God will let me be immersed in the mercy and forgiveness of Him, so I too can become white. Is it too optimistic? I think not! A crisis will burn away everything, so things will become clear. I have converted to Catholicism and I have a glimmer of hope. Of unity in the Holy Trinity!
Please tell Dr. Steve that his words just made an enormous impact in me. I'll definitely watch this video again and again to process all the treasures he exposed. Moreover, I freaking admire his passion so much. Minutes 14:00-15:00 almost got me crying. Thank you!
Same
I have just read your comment to Dr. Steve!
As an artist, this was beautiful to hear. Art is how I connect with my creator. I can't imagine living a life where one does not create.
Was "The Lord Of The Rings" based on Christian themes, values, and theology? J.R.R Tolkien and his pal C.S. Lewis sure thought so.
Obvious to Brits!
CS Lewis was an Anglican and after his chats with his friend the Roman Catholic Tolkien he wrote his Narnia and Tolkien wrote his Ring tales. Christian? Der...I think so ...impossible to appreciate the stories without some knowledge of who wrote the tales and why.
@@raymondmartin318 I thought Tolkien was a nonbeliever before his friendship with Lewis.
@@ricksamericana749 Other way around
@@ricksamericana749 Tolkein was a traditional catholic and resisted liturgical changes brought out by 2nd vatican council
@@ricksamericana749 Yes, CS Lewis was the non-believer before his friendship with Tolkien and others at Oxford. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and they would discuss matters of faith and God until Lewis saw the value of the belief and embraced it wholeheartedly. Many of his books on Christian apologetics talk about his conversion to some degree.
Tolkien has said as much about his writings: "Lord of the Rings is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work."
True
Which proves it isnt biblical
@@davidturner1641, define biblical, please.
@@tryingnottobeasmartass757 Get ready for some of the worst arguments you'll ever hear from that clown.
@The Sight of Sound he did always say that he "has a cordial distaste for allegory"
@@planbuildrepeat8264 He did however become a Christian before writing the books. As a result his world view and values as a Christian still shine through his writings. It's because he wrote the story from his heart.
No way, this is awesome. I was there when you made this video! I actually go to Trinity now and was taking Dr. Fratt's history of Middle Earth class at this time. This is awesome and I love to see it!
I’m in tears.
I remember reading LOTR for the first time as a boy and being overwhelmed. I wanted to be able to fight for something good and something beautiful! It inspired me to start writing and making home movies to tell my own stories. I would spend hours imagining up my own worlds. So it was amazing to hear Tolkien hoped his work would inspire creativity in others.
But then when the professor opened up about his anxieties as to if he has lived a life with meaning… that’s when I lost it. I’m 31. I’m a pastor. I wonder that same thing all the time. I’m not taking down an evil empire as I imagined as a boy. Life is complicated and tricky. But I just want to do good and be a light. I relate to Bilbo who desires great adventure… but also is held back by the comfort of home.
Yikes this is all over the place and I’m a wreck right now. Matt just hit me dead center in the things that are important to me and move me with this one.
I sure appreciate and resonate with this comment friend. I'm glad you want to do great and redemptive things - I feel that with you - but no matter how much I do, it never feels like enough. I'm jealous of the clarity of Sam and Frodo's question, and I need to be reminded often that my life has already been declared meaningful because even in my mess, I'm an object of redemption by the power of God and in that my flawed life points to the truest, realest thing of all.
I thought the title was going to say “with Tolkien scholar Dr. Matt Fradd” 😆
No, but my next video is with him.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH cool! Looking forward for it
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Ooohhh....you should talk to Professor Peter Kreeft! He's written many books on Christian apologetics and is a well known Tolkien/Lewis scholar as well! I've seen a few recent interviews where his personal politics enter the conversation but he's definitely an interesting Tolkien scholar.
Dr Fratt was candid and moving especially his question about 'meaningful' lives and that remark of appreciation of being interviewed. I hope he receives the validation that our lives lived in meek virtue (like them hobbits) and heroism like the people of Rohan, are such because of 'perseverance' or the grace of endurance. So in his comment about being faced with difficulties, as a result of the disorder introduced by Melkor into creation, the true grace of Illuvatar which surpassed those of the Ainu and the Valar, is that of 'endurance'. Thanks Mark, for this post, and Dr Fratt. 🥃🥃 May he know that his words did matter, and not just to Mark but the rest of us, too.
Listened to The Hobbit on audiobook, (Andy Serkis's narration was awesome!) and I really appreciated you and Destin's conversation on NDQ. I am currently listening to the Silmarillion- it's not an easy listen, but I picked up on a lot of Tolkien's symbolism and much of what Dr. Fratt pointed out. While his stories are not overtly Christian (compared to Lewis's Narnia series), you can definitely see the influences of his faith come out in his storytelling. Keep it up Matt!
It's very Roman Catholic in its themes
Wow, thank you for such an interesting interview! Definitely a great follow-up to the most recent NDQ episode. :D I really appreciate what Dr. Fratt had to say about Eowyn. She sought to make an impact on the war; to have a meaningful life. I had never thought of her that way. Great video, Matt!
Considering that Tolkien was in many ways not a fan of allegory, it is best argued that his Christian beliefs are infused naturally into the story, yet he had no intention of writing Christian literature
He had every intention of writing Christian literature, he had no intention of writing Christian allegory.
This is incredible Matt. Really appreciate videos like these that connect the pieces between the spiritual and the heart. Keep at it brother!
Thanks friend! Good to hear from you man.
I got LOTR for my 13th birthday and reread it each year until I turned 50.
A wonderful story of hope against corruption.
I would love more content like this! Religious themes in LOTR, Narnia, Avatar TLA, Star Wars, Ect.
And Harry Potter. And works by some of the other Inklings. And Jane Austen. And . . .
The Lord of the Rings is not Christian. It is gnostic and filled with freemason imagery. It's full of wizardry, sorcery and magic. Stick to the Bible, people. You'll be safe.
Well Tolkien & Lewis both believed in Christ . Avatar ? And the others may not have a christain theme ..? Star Wars has more of a Gnostic theme with the Jedi Vs Sith .. Harry Potter not going too lie I no zero about those books, when the movies came out , I thought HP movies were trying too compete with Peter Jackson LOTR .
One thing that LOTR helped me with, was understanding that there was more to the word fellowship than a chicken casserole (although I wouldn't put it past the Hobbits to bring one of those to the fellowship). :)
"Some believe that it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I've found. I found it is the small things. Everyday deeds by ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay" I've always liked this quote from Gandalf/Tolkien
It’s nice, but it’s from the Hobbit movies, not Tolkien.
@@PrinceofArfon Haven't read the books for a few years now. Guess it's hard to remember what's movie and what's book lol
@@ninpodarren Actually, the movie's is a paraphrase of a quote from Elrond about Frodo:"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." mixed with excerpts from Tolkien's letter n. 131, where he tried to explain the themes of his works and their different "tones": " as the earliest Tales are seen through Elvish eyes, as it were, this last great Tale, coming down from myth and legend to the earth, is seen mainly though the eyes of Hobbits: it thus becomes in fact anthropocentric. But through Hobbits, not Men so-called, because the last Tale is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world polities' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, forgotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil)."
@@Laurelin70 Thank you for your reply, I really enjoyed that.
I have long had similar thoughts, but could have never said it so well. Fantasy stories are not normally my type, but I constantly muse at how Tolkien's works have impacted my life and faith so deeply. Dr. Fratt really knows his Tolkien. Keep up the awesome videos.
that little inner circle of Tolkien/Lewis (inklings) and Chesterton/Belloc before them were a blessing to the literary world
Loved this! Especially the part about Galadriel, she had to have done a lot of introspection and soul-searching to temper her desire for the Ring over the 3 Ages. I didn't know that the Witch King's death was part of what gave Sam hope, that's wonderful. Éowyn is so underrated! I loved his take on Éowyn wanting to be significant, rather than specifically wanting to be a glorious soldier like Boromir.
Personally my favourite characters are Gandalf and Faramir, for their empathy, wisdom, and mercy. We must all strive to exemplify those qualities, for they are also the qualities of Jesus: Love, and Truth. I think perhaps the most important Christian theme in LotR is that of pity for seemingly undeserving beings. It was that pity Bilbo showed Gollum all those years ago that ultimately destroyed Sauron. Gandalf demonstrated pity to Saruman, Théoden to Grima, and Faramir even to the slain Haradrim soldier whom he and his men had just felled. Redemption is rare in Tolkien's world because the wicked rarely choose the better path, but it's so important that the heroes consistently offer that redemption nonetheless.
That’s why an extra eagle was sent: just in case Gollum converted.
Eck , in 2023 poor Galadriel was Butcher by Amazon.. ooh well those series were so bad a true Tolkien fan wouldn't consider them canon to Tolkien lore .
Great video Matt thanks for taking the time to put it in front of us and let us in on a great conversation.
I wish this video was 18 hours long instead of 18 min. I would watch this for days no problem. Astonishingly beautiful.
I had the pleasure of sitting through hours and hours of class time with Dr Fratt, and it was indeed well worth it.
I almost started crying when Dr. Fratt was near tears. I rewatched the Return of the KInf a couple of weeks ago and bawled intensely at least 3 times. My wife and I are separated right now. When Theoden dies and he says that he is going to the hall of his father's, in whose presence the knows no shame, I lost it. I couldn't hold anything back.
Stories are the medium of life-giving words.
I could listen to this man speak for hours.
I will point everyone to “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth”,a short story about a elven lord and a human woman discussing the fate of mortal men. After discussing the broken, mortal, sinful nature of humanity, the woman mentions an Old Hope amongst men of old that Eru, God, would come down into the world Himself and heal the brokenness Himself. The Incarnation in Middle earth, just saying!
To be more precise, the eastern Mediterranean (middle earth in Latin)
Great video Matt. As I have gotten older I enjoy good stories more. Hope we might get a chance to hear more from Dr. Fratt in the future
I'm reading the Silmarillion and am blown away by it. So much so that it led me on a journey to find this video. I'm blown away by this interview and so grateful to have spent the time watching it. I'll be digging more deeply into the Christian symbolism in Middle Earth. Thanks for fabulous video!
Man! That was an AWESOME interview! His heart and passion for the Lord was so uplifting! I would love to hear more from Dr. Fratt.
That was a lovely interview and hit the right spot at the right time. Thanks to both of you!...😉
Another great resource on this topic is Michael Jahosky’s “The Good News of the Return of the King”...it’s really great. He was interviewed on The Naked Bible podcast (ep.351)
Excellent, although Dr. Fratt misspoke when he said Galadriel gave her passage to the Blessed Realm to Frodo. It was Arwen who did.
Very inspiring interview. Thanks
Would love to see more of Dr. Fratt.
I want to take Dr. Steve Fratt out to dinner. This is the conversation/explanation I have been pontificating for years. It's nice to see someone else that appreciates the intersection of Tolkien mythology and Christian beliefs.
I'm on a pilgrimage in Taizé (France) right now and we literally discussed the question today, if the death of Gandalf is comparable to resurrection😂😂
Hi from Tolkins country of birth
This was absolutely beautiful-thank you so much for this gift! I love the Lord of the Rings and hearing Dr. Fratt discuss its Christian virtues and themes just made me appreciate and love both it and Tolkien even more. Might we see more videos like this in the future on Christian stories and the lessons we can learn from them? =D
Great interview!
The subject had me because i loved Tolkien long before i knew Christ.
But the way the professor opened up was fantastic.
While it messes around quite a bit with canonical lore (primarily in regard to the Ringwraiths), Warner Bros' "Shadow of Middle-Earth" game duology does do a decent job exploring Tolkien's themes of the corrosive danger of using the Enemy's power to fight him. What happens when someone takes the power of the One Ring to try to use it for good?... well...... (the short version is that the story fills in the gap between the Hobbit and LotR in why Sauron didn't launch his war out of Mordor earlier.)
Awesome and very insightful vid, thanks matt
The answer to whether LOTR is a Christian story should be a very obvious Yes, but if that's not enough, then J.R.R. Tolkien, a devout Catholic, said so himself in a letter to Robert Murray, a friend and a Jesuit priest: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision." (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Middle-earth).
Those of us steeped in the Catholic Catechism see the signs obviously enough, but they're easily accessible to any Christian to one degree or another. I think the Christian allegory in Narnia is a lot more obvious, though.
The Simarillion is by far my favorite J.R.R. Tolkien book because it's so relative to the creation.
I’ve written a whole book on this subject in case you’re interested! The Good News of the Return of the King: The Gospel in Middle Earth. I’d enjoy speaking with you about this!
Yes. And Narnia
It is Christian in many ways and in others not so much. The morality aspect as well as the metaphysics certainly are. Tolkien also loved the old myths of Northern Europe that also make their mark. Like the priestly writer of Beowulf, he illustrates that one can be a Christian without throwing away the beautiful aspects of our old heritage. Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Wow. I wish I could sit and listen to him for a couple of hours. His passion for God and the works of Tolkien blesses me. Thoroughly enjoyed this.
13:50 Legends say the Witch King’s scream was heard even in the student center
Yes!🤣 The timing was so good
I just love the irony of how the Lord of the Rings trilogy used to be on the banned books list because it's story was considered Satanic in nature
Though we are talking about "Banned in certain U.S. states", not the Vatican's Index. Apparently one school district in New Mexico held a public burning of the books.
Years and years ago I created a Bible Study based on the characaters and character groups of the Lord of the Rings. It's especially written for teens. Some times I'll find someone interested in The Lord of the Rings and I'll ask them, "How many death and resurrection sequences can you list?" Most all will mention Frodo at Weathertop and Gandolf in the Mines of Moria, but they usually skip Aragorn going through the paths of the dead so he can reclaim his kingship. The tapestry of this story is rich, and you must pay attention to tie it into Biblical values. If you do you'll be blessed.
Fantastic book named Tolkien’s Ordinary Virtues: Exploring the Spiritual Themes of the Lord of the Rings by Mark Eddy Smith is a fantastic book that touches on this idea.
I remember listening to an interview with Tolkien and the interviewer was asking "history is already so crowded, how is there room for this story to take place?" and Tolkien had to break it down into very simple terms that it was an alternate universe... it was a foreign concept to the interviewer, and thinking about it, he may have been one of the very first if not the first to do that. To build an entirely new world for your setting. We take it for granted nowadays, but it was radical for it's time and he was a real trailblazer, and it makes me wonder if that sort of radical creativity, the joy we get from creating worlds and telling stories in them, comes from God's image.
I love Lord of the Rings. It's so inspiring and makes me evaluate my life every single time. I enjoy the story and along the way, I always accidentally learn something about my faith.
Im just watching along, taking in what Dr. Fratt is saying, and BAM! Greg shows up in the background at 6:07!
Powerful. I love this. Thank you.
I saw this video and thought, how funny im re reading the hobbit right now! And then I realized I'm doing that because of the podcast he just released... derp
Eowyn has always been such an encouragement for me.
Great conversation, thanks for sharing.
I bet this would have made much more sense if I had read the books or at least watched the movies.🤣 Thanks for what you do, Matt. God bless!
@David & Leann Sorondo
Please Please PLEASE, I'm ON BENDED KNEE. Read The The Books. Forget the movie.
This video was beautiful and inspiring.
Yes - a meaningful life indeed
Thank you Matt ❤
I'm a missionary on the college campus where I run into many different christians with various backgrounds. Therefore, I face many denominations. I am with the Assemblies of God, but love to engage in discipleship with those in a different denominations (after all, we usually agree on the pursuit to come closer in relationship with Jesus.) All this to say, I am very thankful for your content and pure heart in it. I am praying for you and for the fruitfulness of your channel. Also, I just love LOTR!
Your low-key out-of-focus Hobbit figure at the pond over your shoulder: I see it.
I do like his officers hat. A captain if I'm not mistaken.
I appreciate this video.. Thank you!
Anything scriptural to back these points/claims?
I am well read in my KJV, but I am open to points from other scholars.
Thank you Lord Jesus Christ, I give you all the praise, amen.
Thanks. ❤
This man is the real deal.
Short answer: Yes
What i like though about the LoTR verse is it has a good balance between God and gods..
Tolkiens work is fundamentally a Christian art piece, and whilst you can see it is a unique world he has made, it is also clear that his religious beliefs and personally moral base has influenced his works in the most beautiful ways, like his focus on the nature of his world to the story of the fallen Ainur that is doomed to fail.
Lol Dr. Fratt was my history teacher in college!
Respectfully. I would make a clarification on Melkor in the Music. He did not create a song. He corrupted the song. He took what existed and twisted it. And so it was from beginning to into LotR. Evil does not create. It only corrupts what already is.
The desire to create is wholesome. I would suggest that in Tolkien's mind, we are never so close to God as when we act as, in his words, "subcreators." The flaw of Feanor, which led to the Kinslaying and all that followed, was his elevation of his subcreation over the Master's Creation. That pride led to greed, both enhanced by Melkor's whispering. And so the Elves fell.
I read s book years ago that compares Frodo from LOTR and Harry from Harry Poter, very interesting comparison 🤔
So I guess the battle behind him is "The Battle of the Five Armies" Worgs on the right, Beorn on the left.
Right on.
Tolkien was deeply religious, yes. But I disagree that his writings are connected to christian theology. They are written with christian morals as virtues, but there is what it ends to me.
Silmarillian is more "theological" because it is the creation story and Tolkien took some inspiration from the Bible, but there are also way more differences than similarities.
The trilogy is, at heart, about how Tolkien sees the world at that time. The Shire is his idyllic countryside England, and the hobbits are the simple country folk that he felt at home with. Mordor is London to him, and the orcs are the hard labouring city folk, destroying the beauty of the simple life. The all seeing eye is so clearly the parliament meddling with everyones business. This is really clear in The scouring of the Shire.
That is not to say that it is not a christian work though, because it could only come from that culture, and there are some christian analogies in there.
I am seeing it with different eyes though, as I don't have your faith. And I mean no disrespect to the professor. We see what we see from our own point of view. I very much enjoyed the talk though, so thanks :)
Melkor knew fear
I wonder from the start in the void did he fear the void the emptiness
What do you feel about Christian’s who believe we shouldn’t watch movies with magical influence because God opposed magic so much in the Bible?
Point out to such Christians that the Bible mentions acts of incest - even though Christians are not to commit incest. By their logic, we had better not read the Bible, because it contains such a lot of immoral stuff Christians are forbidden to do.
Pagan myths and other writings were full of magic, sexual immorality, and worldliness, but the Apostle Paul was so familiar with them that he was able to quote pagan authors from memory in Acts 17 and Titus 2.
Maybe it's because I never really followed Lord of the Rings, but I never connected a work of fantasy to Christianity. That's... kinda cool, actually!
Nice Wyoming hat!
"Did I live a meaningful life?"
Tolkien scholar refers to the Rohirrim as “ Rohan Folks”
No, there are more pagan elements than christian in Lord of the Rings though it is Christian in attitude. Fortress of Lugh did a really good video on the subject. Give it a watch.
Sure it has some pagan mythology in it, but overall it takes heavy catholic inspiration. Even the author of lord of the rings said so himself.
@@Smeaglehasabeard I'd say it's like a 70-30 split Pagan to Christian influences.
I like his George R.R. Martin cosplay
absolutely LOTR is a CHRISTIAN story. Always has been. A bit mythological but very much Christian. That is why there are so many Catholic books in explaining the beautiful reality of LOTR.
Fantastic!! Nothing beats LOTR!! :)
yes, this man much like C.S Lewis we’re Roman Catholics and wrote Christian novels. They’re riddled with so much Christian symbolism it’s a shock to me that a lot of people never noticed
All true, except Lewis was a Protestant.
Plug for the Amon Sûl Podcast.
The most fantastic thing about lord of the rings is that none of the characters seem to suffer diphtheria, dysentery, or the bubonic plague despite living with what is clearly medieval standards of hygiene.
Great job brother, not Matt’s Mom
Yes
Honestly Christians appropriate everything in the first place. It's just a better book than the bible.
how can Christians appropriate a Christian work?
@@GuitarBloodlines by endorsing confirmation bias. However. Upon further review I maybe be incorrect and you may be correct. It seems that Tolkien intended the work as Christian. Not as a direct allegory but as a central symbolism.
If I get disagreeable enough though... It's the values themselves I question in the symbolism. Freedom and justice, etc.... wouldn't be exclusive to Christianity for instance.
At many points, Christian sects denounced those values.
My bias is showing however.
Absolutely... Its a fundamentally Catholic work... Given to him by God directly to record as a legendairium
Tolkien did not believe his works were given to him directly by God, and they do not bear the marks of such inspiration.
Christian theme in a Pagan world.
❤️🙌
Tolkien may have thought that he is catholic but he actually might be a Christian
Lol Catholics are the original Christians
This guy thinks JK Rowling is great 😮 ? I've never read anything so badly written.
They can walk barefoot anywhere so I would take hairy feet as the trade off any day
Mat. 24:31 - He is gathering his "elect", in the middle ages they were called the saints, when he has enough of them, then the world will be fixed. Paul said he was "less than the least of all saints" because even Paul wasn't good enough to be chosen to be a saint. In Rev. 20:4 it says that the saints would be raised to rule as kings in heaven. So when God has found enough kings to rule the earth, the way the world currently runs will stop and the saints will rule from heaven. At least that is what it says in the bible, I have read Revelations and that seems to sum it up. The most dangerous, violent, vile, people will be judged and disposed of, but the pure will live under the Kingdom of God.
Shire atmosphere; Shire music; Shire story.
It's the _10 minute Shire hour._
THIS xd
Shire-like music, Howard Shore can’t be beat.
WE STAN
I'm not crying you're crying.
I am crying very bigly