Dave Bell, exactly. The EPA test results are the ones you want to use. Sure, people can get WLTP if they drive very conservatively, in 25c weather. But EPA range will make you less shocked in winter.
This was a brilliant video. Anyone thinking of trying or buying an EV should watch this. As soon as you tell friends and family that you are thinking of buying an EV this is one of their main arguments against it and the scare mongering can put people off. A bit of research into channels like this one do more for my confidence in EV's than any sales person could hope to achieve. Nice work!
Driving on the Isle of Wight thank you very much for your kind comments. This is exactly what I set out to achieve with the channel and you have just made all the hours of filming and editing worthwhile. Thank you 😁👍
I watched dozens of EV reviews and news shows over the last two years - all of which helped me decide on which EV I would order. But these two EV Guide episodes have given me more useful information, and a better understanding of ownership expectations than all that research combined. Looking forward to the next in the series. And I'd love to see an episode on overall maintenance and service expectations. It's the one topic that seems to get overlooked in favour of a less-important 0-60 talk that dominates the auto world.
I after not seeing my sister for over many decade's ( I don't see other family for 20 years+).have got her to sign up at kia dealer to look into leasing a Kia E NIRO if available . As you can imagine I had AWFUL lot of questions asked. More importantly all told her the scare story's about battery and nowhere to CHARGE ECT ECT. So I explained the PROS AND few cons. I'm sending your video to her now. Thanks for super video's on THIS.keep it up mate.
Should the battery always be charged from 20-80% all the time? I faintly reading somewhere that the battery should be charged to 100% like monthly -is this true & if so why?
As someone who is just starting to learn about this subject I am surprised there was no discussion of thermal management. Isn't this a key feature to improve battery health. Can I suggest this as a topic for a future video ?
Losing almost 10 miles in a few years makes me not want to spend money on a leaf, even if it’s used as a 2nd car. Can’t wait for longer range electric cars to be cheaper.
Glen Reidy - even Ryan’s car - with 10 miles degradation, covers all of his local needs (he said he doesn’t even notice the miles lost). You just learn the limits of the car and what it’s capable of at the current charge level and outside temperature. 24kwh Leafs make great 2nd cars, and allow people with a smaller budget to get into an EV.
I see your point, but for me it’s not worth buying a 24kwh leaf. It’s already a few years old with battery degradation and would have another 10 miles off by the time I’d come to sell it (if I could). I’d rather wait or buy a different electric car. Not saying no to electric, just that model (for my needs).
Glen Reidy - agree. The 30 kWh version, with the better climate system, and improved battery tech, would be a better choice, but at an incrementally higher price. Me thinks the jury is still out on the 40 kWh version, but that’s likely too expensive yet to buy as a used vehicle.
If I remember right, they EPA Test was updated back in 2015 and is pretty accurate at least for EV's. I have a '13 Chevy Volt with 39K miles which EPA rated at 38mi per charge in 2013 but from spring to fall I'm getting 42 - 47 miles per charge and about 24 miles in temps of 24*F or -4*C.
If you are interested in the extremes of Leaf battery degradation, research “Leaf owners of Arizona” (USA). The highway asphalt can reach 55C or higher during summer days of 45C air temp in Phoenix and the Sonoran Desert. GreenCarReports even wrote an article on how to negotiate with Nissan once the battery started to degrade in Phoenix.
My wife dailies our 2011 24kwh leaf in Arizona we had our battery replaced by Nissan at no charge to us as the battery had lost enough cells within the first 5 years of the car. its currently got aprox. 60k miles on it and we are still very happy with the leaf. Im not sure we will buy another leaf but we are definitely in love with EVs. I just recently bought a BMW X5 40e (PHEV) and love that very much. No news on how Arizona will treat that small 9kwh battery as of yet.
2014 Ascent with 36k miles and a 96.5% battery SoH. Only 7QC's and 1090 L1 charges probably account for good battery health. Today's commute 67 Miles with 14% charge remaining and 14 Miles on the Guess-O-Meter.
I have an Ioniq Ev, in Australia, I only slow charge on spare solar. It seems to do 9-12 kW per 100km. It seems to work out at 237-245km per full charge. Is that good or bad? One of the reason that I went for the Ioniq, was that I saw a German guy, 110,000km in his Ioniq Ev, battery state of health 100%. I did a lot of driving at the weekend, and after Sunday and a short journey to work I'm left with147km, 3 day's of dull weather, never mind bonuses of living in Australia it will be sunny tomorrow. I only ever use spare solar as I charge the Powerwall 2 for home use first.
Hi Ryan My 2015 Leaf has done just over 19000 miles and has 101% SOH which "drops" to 91% in Summer, a couple of quick charges in a day always bumps SOH up.
No need a) they protect such already ie there is some small % that you cant get to. b) to charge past 80% you pretty much have to tell a system to do this.
You should mention that driving (at least certain EVS) at high speeds dramatically decreases range. Most people are not used to driving at 62mph on the motorway, as average normal speed is more like 65-75 when the motorway is clear. My 2016 30Kwh 87% SOH Leaf will probably do 110-120 miles of city driving without an issue (going off the GOM figures). My commute to work is 30 miles each way, 25 mile of that is motorway. In winter it’d show 103 miles on 100% at 0 degrees with heater on. All depends on how I drove previously though, sometimes more, sometimes less. If I go at 70mph everywhere I can (traffic doesn’t allow for it) - I use about 40% to do 30 miles. I used 45% once in 6 degrees going back from work. So the Nissan Leaf bugeye-gen car suffers terribly from high motorway speeds in my eyes. My Honda Civic diesel I had before this didn’t suffer like that at all, I used to average 78MPG on the same commute, summer or winter... Thus it’s a shock to new EV owners - with a small battery you basically have to drive slow and get anxious (I do) about not getting there and back if you can’t charge “there”
could you talk about public charging etiquette. i've read a lot about people being annoyed at people over staying at certain charge points. im hoping to get a ev soon and would like to know the 'rules'.
Sadly I think its case of assholes buy EVs like any other car and said assholes dont care about anyone else. We've recorded Tesla's, leaf's and i3s all parked in charging bays not being charged, and then the ICE owners!.
Ok, I am now getting a little confused about the rapid charging. Conventional wisdom, as you say, Ryan, is not to rapid charge too often. But what is too often ? In summer here in uk I maybe rapid charge once a week and slow charge a couple times while I potter round. In winter it has been too cold to potter or hang about so I have been rapid charging two or three times a week. Having done this and checking on Leaf spy it appears that this has done wonders for my battery state of health which has gone from around 98% to over 102%. It is a 30kW Leaf and is 20 months old. The Leaf Spy is currently reporting SOH of 102.15% , 110 QCs and 146 L1/L2s and odometer 7591 miles. Am I doing something wrong or am I doing something right ??? !
Pretty much, yes, John. Possibly a little more, generally I get the GOM to over 100 miles at 80%. Maybe 60 miles added and usually 25 to 30 mins charging, slows after that and not worth the time or making others wait. I do tend to get high GOM estimates as I often get 4.5 to 5 miles per kw in summer and 3.6 to 4 in the cold. I drive like an old man ;)
Frank Dart I don’t profess to know the exact science behind it but whilst the manufacturers say you shouldn’t rapid charge too often most people find it shows an increase in life of LeafSpy after rapid charging. I don’t worry about it now and just rapid whenever I need to.
Thanks, Ryan. At least it is good to know that this is something others have experienced. The question becomes, how often is ‘too often’ ? I think I shall define that as “when Leaf Spy tells me SOH is suffering”. Or... is this just a manufacturer conspiracy designed to prevent anyone finding out about Rapidgate issues on the 40 by frightening us off from several rapid charges in a day ? Ooh conspiracy theory 🙂
I have a 2016 BMW i3 22kw BEV, depending on the weather I can get anywhere from 60 miles to 90 miles. Something to remember is when I say 60 or 90 miles, that would mean completely depleting the battery to 0% which you would never want to do. You want to reach a charging point with at least 10 miles left or you may end up stranded. I charge my car every 3 days. When it goes down to at least 20% capacity. I only use it to go to work or the shops in both cases less than 10 miles a day. I also use the pre heat option every morning which can take away at least 3% of the battery capacity. So all in all its different for each person and each car. Don't rely on the car specs from the manufacturers, you will only truly know after you've owned one for a few months.
22kW is the 64Ah right?. Mine is 94Ah , 33kW Its minus 3degC outside now and I can get 80-90miles running at 70-80mph all the way home In summer I can easily get 110 - 120 miles - again mostly at motorway cruising but can get 130 and above with mixed driving at 30-60mph So that seem sit scales as expected
Darren Egleton ha! Great spot. There is only one in there and 2 shrimp. The rest are long gone but this one keeps going. We are waiting for him to go before we get some new ones 😁
NEDC: Not even damn close WLTP: Way less than, probably 😅 I didn't realise the EPA test was so old. It's still the most realistic for EVs. Climate control on, good amount of highway speeds etc
I have a 2013 Leaf with 28k miles and have lost 1 battery degradation - GOM says 80 miles, with heater on and a 30 mile trip to work 25 on motorway I get to work with 15-20 miles left
I heard that the degradation issue is far worse on 2011-2014 leafs. And I've seen 2015 models with 60 to 70k on the clock still with 12 bars. Where as pre models the batteries are spanked at that milage. Maybe a slight change in chemistry was made. Who knows.
@@EVOpinion I believe the change was made in 2013. The updated Leaf can be distinguished by a number of things, including a charging bay light and the removal of the electronic parking brake in place of a foot operated parking brake where the clutch would normally be, but I believe the battery chemistry was changed too.
Speaking of battery degradation. I just replaced the battery in my 2012 Leaf. It cost me $8,200. The car had 52,000 miles on it with 61% SOH. And a winter range of 45 miles IF I kept the speed below 45 MPH. And IF I did not use the heat or defroster. It was used in Georgia USA where temperatures are similar to the conditions you described in the UK. It has never been rapid charged. But, since Nissan says the degradation was within expected parameters no warranty replacement was possible. Perhaps that is why Nissan claims there have been few warranty replacements. They simply refuse to do them. Even when the car is virtually unusable for it's intended purpose. The thing is. I still love my Leaf. It is a great car. However Nissan (at least in the US) is a lousy company. I can only hope the replacement battery is better than the original.
usaverageguy hopefully it will be the newer battery the same as mine and you’ll now get many years of service from it. They definitely had an issue with the early Leaf and it’s battery make up. Thank you for sharing your experiences 👍
The WLTM one is more accurate. I dont think the results should be used as absolute figures but more a tool to compare cars as all cars perform the same test .
It is not the speed of charging that degrades battery. It is the heat that may build up (compared to slower charging where heat can escape during few hours). If temperature of the chemistry is below 40C/100F then degradation is not that noticeable. Charging itself degrades battery, especially charging over 4V per cell (about 80% charge state) no matter slow or fast.
Sorry, I thought it was in the description. I have added it now. If you scrol down to where I have listed the kit I use it is the last item on the list. Just follow the link. Thanks for letting me know.
Here in NZ a (real) 91% battery would be outstanding on a second hand Japanese Leaf import sold here with < 10,000kms on the clock and < 2 years old, which leaves me wondering WTH? Anyway these numbers are so questionable I am sittng on the fence until I understand whats going on and also thus taking more interest in the Ioniq.
So if I drive 100 to 130 miles daily wich means I have to charge daily, do you people think its a good idea to buy the 2019 leaf with 40 kwh batery or not? And will the batery degrade faster if I charge daily?
Enton Kuka that should be ok it depends on the roads you drive on and driving style. I wouldn’t recommend it if you are wanting to drive the whole distance on a motorway at motorway speeds but if it’s a mixture then yes. Ask your local garage to trial one for 24 hrs👍
Thanks for the reply Ryan, I deliver for a restaurant in Boston so I drive few miles at a time on city trafic but at the and of day it’ll be more then 100 miles. I am worried if the battery will last for the day if I charge it up to 80%. I really like the idea of electric because it will save me a lot istead of bying gas. I would wait for the 62 kwh batery but the price is going to be over $6000 more , right now I could get the 40 kwh SL for $33000. I think it’s a good deal.
Enton Kuka I think it would work perfectly for you then. I would still ask for a test to put your mind at rest but I think you will be really pleased 👍
I don't have range or degradation anxiety as much as parked up anxiety. By that I mean how much charge will be lost if the car is parked for a period of time. I'm told that they don't lose very much.
The range figures are not specific to EV. The same figures are normally contested in combustion engines as well. In many cases it is almost impossible to reach the range announced for combustion vehicles or EV. Temperature affect also both up to 14% according to some magazines in Canada.
We've achieved better than claimed fuel consumption for all 4 of our fossil cars over the past 25 years, without really trying. The current petrol vehicle can manage more than 60 mpg (Imperial, not U/S) on long runs with no real effort, apart from normal careful driving, but no steep hills, carrying 2 people and heavy luggage. I've never tried hypermiling in it. From our (admittedly small sample) experiences, I'm inclined to take the manufacturer's open-road claims as a starting point, and then to expect that, or better, fuel economy. For town driving, the published economy figures tend to be optimistic, probably because they cannot factor in the reality of a four mile journey regularly taking up to 45 minutes during peak traffic periods. (It's often quicker to walk, if I were capable of doing so.) That's where EV's can have a real edge, so long as lights and air con are turned off.
Range is not really an issue in most ICE cars as it is generally 300 miles +. And in my experience, cold weather only significantly affects consumption on short journeys.
If I'd seen this video before buying an EV I'd have been discouraged. Seeing that you've lost nearly 9% according to Leafspy, and the car is only three years old, that doesn't sound good. I recently bought a 2016 30kwh Leaf, 97,000 miles and still 12 bars, so I'm pretty pleased. I tried to use Leafspy but it wouldn't connect to my OBD2.
If you avoid the 1st gen Leaf's the battery is going to last you 20 years by the looks of it at which point the car is at the end of its life overall anyway.
Hi how are u hope u are ok thank u so much for all ur video its really helpful.i would like to ask if there is any to get in touch with u, I have few questions i would like to ask u please.
Hi mohamed ali fedhila. I’m all good thank you and glad your are enjoying the videos. You can contact me via Twitter, Messenger or evopinion@outlook.com
I thought leaving your EV constantly topped up at 100% causes uneccesary degradation. Why would you do that? Only need 100% setting out on a long journey
That argument makes sense but we don't know how much the manufacturer has top sliced the capacity to increase lifespan. In my I3 and probably others as well the BMS starts balancing individual cells at 100% SOC and therefore battery health is best maintained by always being fully charged
I've been looking at the very best way to preserve battery capacity for the last two years while waiting for a model 3. Tesla cells might be better, but apparently for Li-ion in general: * Possible jump in capacity loss when charged above 60% * Low soc increases internal resistance * High soc causes sudden capacity loss sooner (after a lower number of cycles) Charging very high can cause the cell surface area to be blocked and sudden collapse of capacity after fewer cycles even if the long term degradation so far has been shallow: 100%, HV stress 95%, ok 90%, good 80%, decent, low parasitic reactions m.th-cam.com/video/9qi03QawZEk/w-d-xo.html (Also talks about temperature) When I get a Model 3 I plan to buy the largest possible battery, and in the hope of it retaining capacity for 20 years: * Charge the cells to about 3.8 V (approx 60%?) daily for short trips (hoping for a hibernate mode for this fixed voltage on all cells, so that error build-up (of displayed % soc or range) from repeated shallow cycles at this low soc doesn't matter) * Usually try to stay within 3.65 and 3.95 V per cell unloaded (approx 40 to 80%) * Usually charge slow at home (7 kW should be good, about C/10) * Avoid fast acceleration at low soc Useful table of resting voltages vs soc at budgetlightforum.com/node/47730 I do the same with my phone, shallow cycles e.g. 75/45% when possible (Accubattery on Android notifies once charged to a set level) On road trips I'd imagine frequent top-ups would be better for the battery e.g. every 75-100 miles back to a resting 3.9 to 4 volts?
There's only an infinite amount of times a battery can be cycled before it runs out (5:24). Oh, the sad degradation of its value that infinity has undergone. More seriously, though I like the video, I would not (being a mathematician) have formulated some things the same way. Notably the problem with range estimates is not that the tests are not precise, the problem that what people would like to call "range" is a rather vague notion, so there is no way of being precise about it. To get in any way reproducible results, tests must be done under standardised conditions, and it would be hard to make these include things like rain, headwind, terrain, cold, even though these things do occur in practice. When I weigh myself, I don't include the weight of any clothes, but that does not mean I usually go around naked. Also in realistic circumstances range in impacted by prudence, as most people feel uncomfortable going all the way down to 0%, but how should such a factor be incorporated into tests?
Leafspys soh varies over the year. Our leaf had 82.6% soh wen we bought it in November but it has 91% soh now. Rapid charging, running the battery empty and cold weather actually temporarilly raises soh. 91% in winter after 3.5 year is actually not very good. The only proven way to degrade the battery is heat and full soc. Please do not tell people to just full charge and leave it full. Especially innwarmer climates this will without a doubt degrade the battery faster. Leafs 100% soc is actually 96-97% but still the 80% limit on older cars was not without reason. If 100% is needed charge timers work great and the improve range in winter due to warming up the battery with the charge.
Your lucky you don’t have a 2012 . I have 9 bars it has been that way for a year and i have 41,000 miles . I needed the 2013 or newer like Ian Sampson .
Mark Fitzpatrick yes, the 2012 Nissan Leafs are quite notorious for loosing range. If I were looking to the 2nd market I would look at 2015 models and onwards
Ask yourself this why has Elon musk invested so much time and effort in producing a SUPERCHARGING network if rapid charging is so bad for your battery. The cells are carefully thermally managed with a water jacket to stop them from exceeding critical temperatures. so you can guess what SUPERCHARGE all day long. Even if there is a small amount of degradation caused by this, guess what its not detectable even with instruments. Go ask Jack Ricard EVTV
That stinks, Hector. As a rule of thumb, when a cell is at 70% SOH, then it's usually in its terminal stages, and can only be recharged fully a relatively few more times. *Bad show, Nissan!*
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Hi, just to point out that the most realistic range test figure is the US EPA one, 84/107 miles for the 24/30 Leafs. This is achievable with care.
WLTP is pretty accurate. I have managed the WLTP figure in my Zoe
Dave Bell, exactly. The EPA test results are the ones you want to use. Sure, people can get WLTP if they drive very conservatively, in 25c weather. But EPA range will make you less shocked in winter.
I've managed to get a 130 mile range on a full charge on my 30 KWH Leaf. I just keep Eco mode on and it seems to make a difference. :)
I am not worried. I have done nearly 20,000 in my 24kw Leaf. Still have 12 out of 12 bars.
This was a brilliant video. Anyone thinking of trying or buying an EV should watch this. As soon as you tell friends and family that you are thinking of buying an EV this is one of their main arguments against it and the scare mongering can put people off. A bit of research into channels like this one do more for my confidence in EV's than any sales person could hope to achieve. Nice work!
Driving on the Isle of Wight thank you very much for your kind comments. This is exactly what I set out to achieve with the channel and you have just made all the hours of filming and editing worthwhile. Thank you 😁👍
I watched dozens of EV reviews and news shows over the last two years - all of which helped me decide on which EV I would order. But these two EV Guide episodes have given me more useful information, and a better understanding of ownership expectations than all that research combined. Looking forward to the next in the series. And I'd love to see an episode on overall maintenance and service expectations. It's the one topic that seems to get overlooked in favour of a less-important 0-60 talk that dominates the auto world.
Albert Berkshire I’m so glad it has helped you. I will see what I can do about a service guide 😁👍
I after not seeing my sister for over many decade's ( I don't see other family for 20 years+).have got her to sign up at kia dealer to look into leasing a Kia E NIRO if available . As you can imagine I had AWFUL lot of questions asked. More importantly all told her the scare story's about battery and nowhere to CHARGE ECT ECT. So I explained the PROS AND few cons. I'm sending your video to her now. Thanks for super video's on THIS.keep it up mate.
I like your mention of age being a key factor in battery degradation. I think to often people assume it’s only the miles.
I have 2011 Leaf 32.6k miles SOH 81.85% . 8 year old battery
The Epa regulations & testing has been updated big time since the 70’s and is considered the gold standard of car testing in the world...
Should the battery always be charged from 20-80% all the time? I faintly reading somewhere that the battery should be charged to 100% like monthly -is this true & if so why?
As someone who is just starting to learn about this subject I am surprised there was no discussion of thermal management. Isn't this a key feature to improve battery health. Can I suggest this as a topic for a future video ?
Losing almost 10 miles in a few years makes me not want to spend money on a leaf, even if it’s used as a 2nd car. Can’t wait for longer range electric cars to be cheaper.
Glen Reidy - even Ryan’s car - with 10 miles degradation, covers all of his local needs (he said he doesn’t even notice the miles lost). You just learn the limits of the car and what it’s capable of at the current charge level and outside temperature. 24kwh Leafs make great 2nd cars, and allow people with a smaller budget to get into an EV.
I see your point, but for me it’s not worth buying a 24kwh leaf. It’s already a few years old with battery degradation and would have another 10 miles off by the time I’d come to sell it (if I could). I’d rather wait or buy a different electric car. Not saying no to electric, just that model (for my needs).
Glen Reidy - agree. The 30 kWh version, with the better climate system, and improved battery tech, would be a better choice, but at an incrementally higher price. Me thinks the jury is still out on the 40 kWh version, but that’s likely too expensive yet to buy as a used vehicle.
If I remember right, they EPA Test was updated back in 2015 and is pretty accurate at least for EV's. I have a '13 Chevy Volt with 39K miles which EPA rated at 38mi per charge in 2013 but from spring to fall I'm getting 42 - 47 miles per charge and about 24 miles in temps of 24*F or -4*C.
If you are interested in the extremes of Leaf battery degradation, research “Leaf owners of Arizona” (USA). The highway asphalt can reach 55C or higher during summer days of 45C air temp in Phoenix and the Sonoran Desert. GreenCarReports even wrote an article on how to negotiate with Nissan once the battery started to degrade in Phoenix.
Matt S that is one of the exceptions I was talking about. Not a good place for a battery to operate!!
My wife dailies our 2011 24kwh leaf in Arizona we had our battery replaced by Nissan at no charge to us as the battery had lost enough cells within the first 5 years of the car. its currently got aprox. 60k miles on it and we are still very happy with the leaf. Im not sure we will buy another leaf but we are definitely in love with EVs. I just recently bought a BMW X5 40e (PHEV) and love that very much. No news on how Arizona will treat that small 9kwh battery as of yet.
2014 Ascent with 36k miles and a 96.5% battery SoH. Only 7QC's and 1090 L1 charges probably account for good battery health. Today's commute 67 Miles with 14% charge remaining and 14 Miles on the Guess-O-Meter.
I have an Ioniq Ev, in Australia, I only slow charge on spare solar. It seems to do 9-12 kW per 100km. It seems to work out at 237-245km per full charge. Is that good or bad?
One of the reason that I went for the Ioniq, was that I saw a German guy, 110,000km in his Ioniq Ev, battery state of health 100%.
I did a lot of driving at the weekend, and after Sunday and a short journey to work I'm left with147km, 3 day's of dull weather, never mind bonuses of living in Australia it will be sunny tomorrow. I only ever use spare solar as I charge the Powerwall 2 for home use first.
Mark Tiller sounds good and so long as you keep topping up for free it’s all extra money in your pocket 😁👍
Hi Ryan
My 2015 Leaf has done just over 19000 miles and has 101% SOH which "drops" to 91% in Summer, a couple of quick charges in a day always bumps SOH up.
Manufacturers must control charging to be auto-maintained within 20% to 80%!
No need a) they protect such already ie there is some small % that you cant get to. b) to charge past 80% you pretty much have to tell a system to do this.
You should mention that driving (at least certain EVS) at high speeds dramatically decreases range. Most people are not used to driving at 62mph on the motorway, as average normal speed is more like 65-75 when the motorway is clear. My 2016 30Kwh 87% SOH Leaf will probably do 110-120 miles of city driving without an issue (going off the GOM figures). My commute to work is 30 miles each way, 25 mile of that is motorway. In winter it’d show 103 miles on 100% at 0 degrees with heater on. All depends on how I drove previously though, sometimes more, sometimes less. If I go at 70mph everywhere I can (traffic doesn’t allow for it) - I use about 40% to do 30 miles. I used 45% once in 6 degrees going back from work. So the Nissan Leaf bugeye-gen car suffers terribly from high motorway speeds in my eyes. My Honda Civic diesel I had before this didn’t suffer like that at all, I used to average 78MPG on the same commute, summer or winter... Thus it’s a shock to new EV owners - with a small battery you basically have to drive slow and get anxious (I do) about not getting there and back if you can’t charge “there”
could you talk about public charging etiquette. i've read a lot about people being annoyed at people over staying at certain charge points. im hoping to get a ev soon and would like to know the 'rules'.
Sadly I think its case of assholes buy EVs like any other car and said assholes dont care about anyone else. We've recorded Tesla's, leaf's and i3s all parked in charging bays not being charged, and then the ICE owners!.
Colin Mccarthy I will try to find time to add that to the public charging video😁👍
Is it bad a SOH of a Nissan 2011 around 70%.
Ok, I am now getting a little confused about the rapid charging. Conventional wisdom, as you say, Ryan, is not to rapid charge too often. But what is too often ? In summer here in uk I maybe rapid charge once a week and slow charge a couple times while I potter round. In winter it has been too cold to potter or hang about so I have been rapid charging two or three times a week. Having done this and checking on Leaf spy it appears that this has done wonders for my battery state of health which has gone from around 98% to over 102%. It is a 30kW Leaf and is 20 months old. The Leaf Spy is currently reporting SOH of 102.15% , 110 QCs and 146 L1/L2s and odometer 7591 miles. Am I doing something wrong or am I doing something right ??? !
I should have said.. I do rapid charge between about 30% and 80% to avoid throttling and to keep temperature of battery down.
So Frank, are you getting around 50 miles if charging between 30% and 80% on a 30kWh?
Pretty much, yes, John. Possibly a little more, generally I get the GOM to over 100 miles at 80%. Maybe 60 miles added and usually 25 to 30 mins charging, slows after that and not worth the time or making others wait. I do tend to get high GOM estimates as I often get 4.5 to 5 miles per kw in summer and 3.6 to 4 in the cold. I drive like an old man ;)
Frank Dart I don’t profess to know the exact science behind it but whilst the manufacturers say you shouldn’t rapid charge too often most people find it shows an increase in life of LeafSpy after rapid charging. I don’t worry about it now and just rapid whenever I need to.
Thanks, Ryan. At least it is good to know that this is something others have experienced. The question becomes, how often is ‘too often’ ? I think I shall define that as “when Leaf Spy tells me SOH is suffering”. Or... is this just a manufacturer conspiracy designed to prevent anyone finding out about Rapidgate issues on the 40 by frightening us off from several rapid charges in a day ? Ooh conspiracy theory 🙂
I have a 2016 BMW i3 22kw BEV, depending on the weather I can get anywhere from 60 miles to 90 miles. Something to remember is when I say 60 or 90 miles, that would mean completely depleting the battery to 0% which you would never want to do. You want to reach a charging point with at least 10 miles left or you may end up stranded. I charge my car every 3 days. When it goes down to at least 20% capacity. I only use it to go to work or the shops in both cases less than 10 miles a day. I also use the pre heat option every morning which can take away at least 3% of the battery capacity. So all in all its different for each person and each car. Don't rely on the car specs from the manufacturers, you will only truly know after you've owned one for a few months.
22kW is the 64Ah right?.
Mine is 94Ah , 33kW
Its minus 3degC outside now and I can get 80-90miles running at 70-80mph all the way home
In summer I can easily get 110 - 120 miles - again mostly at motorway cruising but can get 130 and above with mixed driving at 30-60mph
So that seem sit scales as expected
@@bbbf09 it's the 60Ah version, I'm mostly doing 30mph in stop start traffic.
2namtaB some good points there. Thank you.
bbbf09 that’s the sort of info people want to know. Motorway speeds are a good test of range.
Suppose you did have to buy a new battery how much would you expect to have to pay?
I can’t help watching the fish tank behind you, but where are all the fish?
Darren Egleton ha! Great spot. There is only one in there and 2 shrimp. The rest are long gone but this one keeps going. We are waiting for him to go before we get some new ones 😁
If that's a goldfish, then expect a long wait! Carp can live for a very long time.
10:10 to 10:49 was that Ringwood High Street on your right, followed by Christchurch Road?
RWBHere spotted like a true local 😁👍
It's Lady RWB's old home town. You made her day! 👋👩🦰👌
NEDC: Not even damn close
WLTP: Way less than, probably 😅
I didn't realise the EPA test was so old. It's still the most realistic for EVs. Climate control on, good amount of highway speeds etc
Rapid charging mixed with normal ‘slow’ charging has been shown to increase battery lifespan
I have a 2013 Leaf with 28k miles and have lost 1 battery degradation - GOM says 80 miles, with heater on and a 30 mile trip to work 25 on motorway I get to work with 15-20 miles left
I heard that the degradation issue is far worse on 2011-2014 leafs. And I've seen 2015 models with 60 to 70k on the clock still with 12 bars. Where as pre models the batteries are spanked at that milage. Maybe a slight change in chemistry was made. Who knows.
Car Dude they did change the battery. The early Leafs are renounced for poor battery life.
@@EVOpinion I believe the change was made in 2013. The updated Leaf can be distinguished by a number of things, including a charging bay light and the removal of the electronic parking brake in place of a foot operated parking brake where the clutch would normally be, but I believe the battery chemistry was changed too.
Speaking of battery degradation. I just replaced the battery in my 2012 Leaf. It cost me $8,200. The car had 52,000 miles on it with 61% SOH. And a winter range of 45 miles IF I kept the speed below 45 MPH. And IF I did not use the heat or defroster. It was used in Georgia USA where temperatures are similar to the conditions you described in the UK. It has never been rapid charged.
But, since Nissan says the degradation was within expected parameters no warranty replacement was possible. Perhaps that is why Nissan claims there have been few warranty replacements. They simply refuse to do them. Even when the car is virtually unusable for it's intended purpose.
The thing is. I still love my Leaf. It is a great car. However Nissan (at least in the US) is a lousy company. I can only hope the replacement battery is better than the original.
usaverageguy hopefully it will be the newer battery the same as mine and you’ll now get many years of service from it. They definitely had an issue with the early Leaf and it’s battery make up. Thank you for sharing your experiences 👍
The WLTM one is more accurate. I dont think the results should be used as absolute figures but more a tool to compare cars as all cars perform the same test .
It is not the speed of charging that degrades battery. It is the heat that may build up (compared to slower charging where heat can escape during few hours). If temperature of the chemistry is below 40C/100F then degradation is not that noticeable. Charging itself degrades battery, especially charging over 4V per cell (about 80% charge state) no matter slow or fast.
Hi could you put up Link to the obd featured in this film
Sorry, I thought it was in the description. I have added it now. If you scrol down to where I have listed the kit I use it is the last item on the list. Just follow the link. Thanks for letting me know.
Thanks
Here in NZ a (real) 91% battery would be outstanding on a second hand Japanese Leaf import sold here with < 10,000kms on the clock and < 2 years old, which leaves me wondering WTH? Anyway these numbers are so questionable I am sittng on the fence until I understand whats going on and also thus taking more interest in the Ioniq.
My 2015 leaf had 87%SoH at 30 thousand miles.
Neil Maddox our of interest do you rapid charge it?
So if I drive 100 to 130 miles daily wich means I have to charge daily, do you people think its a good idea to buy the 2019 leaf with 40 kwh batery or not? And will the batery degrade faster if I charge daily?
Enton Kuka that should be ok it depends on the roads you drive on and driving style. I wouldn’t recommend it if you are wanting to drive the whole distance on a motorway at motorway speeds but if it’s a mixture then yes. Ask your local garage to trial one for 24 hrs👍
Thanks for the reply Ryan, I deliver for a restaurant in Boston so I drive few miles at a time on city trafic but at the and of day it’ll be more then 100 miles. I am worried if the battery will last for the day if I charge it up to 80%. I really like the idea of electric because it will save me a lot istead of bying gas. I would wait for the 62 kwh batery but the price is going to be over $6000 more , right now I could get the 40 kwh SL for $33000. I think it’s a good deal.
Enton Kuka I think it would work perfectly for you then. I would still ask for a test to put your mind at rest but I think you will be really pleased 👍
Thanks, I really appreciate it. My mind is made up now.
I don't have range or degradation anxiety as much as parked up anxiety. By that I mean how much charge will be lost if the car is parked for a period of time. I'm told that they don't lose very much.
The range figures are not specific to EV. The same figures are normally contested in combustion engines as well. In many cases it is almost impossible to reach the range announced for combustion vehicles or EV. Temperature affect also both up to 14% according to some magazines in Canada.
We've achieved better than claimed fuel consumption for all 4 of our fossil cars over the past 25 years, without really trying. The current petrol vehicle can manage more than 60 mpg (Imperial, not U/S) on long runs with no real effort, apart from normal careful driving, but no steep hills, carrying 2 people and heavy luggage. I've never tried hypermiling in it. From our (admittedly small sample) experiences, I'm inclined to take the manufacturer's open-road claims as a starting point, and then to expect that, or better, fuel economy.
For town driving, the published economy figures tend to be optimistic, probably because they cannot factor in the reality of a four mile journey regularly taking up to 45 minutes during peak traffic periods. (It's often quicker to walk, if I were capable of doing so.) That's where EV's can have a real edge, so long as lights and air con are turned off.
Range is not really an issue in most ICE cars as it is generally 300 miles +. And in my experience, cold weather only significantly affects consumption on short journeys.
Mpg of ICE cars is not realistic either.
MrGonetopot the impact may not be exactly the same, but it will cost you a fair bit more.
If I'd seen this video before buying an EV I'd have been discouraged. Seeing that you've lost nearly 9% according to Leafspy, and the car is only three years old, that doesn't sound good.
I recently bought a 2016 30kwh Leaf, 97,000 miles and still 12 bars, so I'm pretty pleased.
I tried to use Leafspy but it wouldn't connect to my OBD2.
How much does it cost to replace all your batteries?
If you avoid the 1st gen Leaf's the battery is going to last you 20 years by the looks of it at which point the car is at the end of its life overall anyway.
@@gzcwnk 20 years? I have heart that after 5 6 years the degradation is massive
@@gzcwnk really?
Ive rapid charged 3120 times, 12 bar SOH at 90%
Hi how are u hope u are ok thank u so much for all ur video its really helpful.i would like to ask if there is any to get in touch with u, I have few questions i would like to ask u please.
Hi mohamed ali fedhila. I’m all good thank you and glad your are enjoying the videos. You can contact me via Twitter, Messenger or evopinion@outlook.com
I thought leaving your EV constantly topped up at 100% causes uneccesary degradation. Why would you do that?
Only need 100% setting out on a long journey
That argument makes sense but we don't know how much the manufacturer has top sliced the capacity to increase lifespan. In my I3 and probably others as well the BMS starts balancing individual cells at 100% SOC and therefore battery health is best maintained by always being fully charged
I've been looking at the very best way to preserve battery capacity for the last two years while waiting for a model 3.
Tesla cells might be better, but apparently for Li-ion in general:
* Possible jump in capacity loss when charged above 60%
* Low soc increases internal resistance
* High soc causes sudden capacity loss sooner (after a lower number of cycles)
Charging very high can cause the cell surface area to be blocked and sudden collapse of capacity after fewer cycles even if the long term degradation so far has been shallow:
100%, HV stress
95%, ok
90%, good
80%, decent, low parasitic reactions
m.th-cam.com/video/9qi03QawZEk/w-d-xo.html
(Also talks about temperature)
When I get a Model 3 I plan to buy the largest possible battery, and in the hope of it retaining capacity for 20 years:
* Charge the cells to about 3.8 V (approx 60%?) daily for short trips (hoping for a hibernate mode for this fixed voltage on all cells, so that error build-up (of displayed % soc or range) from repeated shallow cycles at this low soc doesn't matter)
* Usually try to stay within 3.65 and 3.95 V per cell unloaded (approx 40 to 80%)
* Usually charge slow at home (7 kW should be good, about C/10)
* Avoid fast acceleration at low soc
Useful table of resting voltages vs soc at budgetlightforum.com/node/47730
I do the same with my phone, shallow cycles e.g. 75/45% when possible (Accubattery on Android notifies once charged to a set level)
On road trips I'd imagine frequent top-ups would be better for the battery e.g. every 75-100 miles back to a resting 3.9 to 4 volts?
Keep in mind leaf also has no active temp management its air cooled. Which is dumb btw
There's only an infinite amount of times a battery can be cycled before it runs out (5:24). Oh, the sad degradation of its value that infinity has undergone.
More seriously, though I like the video, I would not (being a mathematician) have formulated some things the same way. Notably the problem with range estimates is not that the tests are not precise, the problem that what people would like to call "range" is a rather vague notion, so there is no way of being precise about it. To get in any way reproducible results, tests must be done under standardised conditions, and it would be hard to make these include things like rain, headwind, terrain, cold, even though these things do occur in practice. When I weigh myself, I don't include the weight of any clothes, but that does not mean I usually go around naked. Also in realistic circumstances range in impacted by prudence, as most people feel uncomfortable going all the way down to 0%, but how should such a factor be incorporated into tests?
Brother in law has just had his 2 year old Nissan leaf battery replaced under warranty after one of the cells died.
Steve Percival thank you. Did they suggest any reason for the fault?
No one will admit anything but he suspects that it was a main dealer charging point he used that was found to be faulty.@@EVOpinion
Steve Percival that sounds right for Nissan!!
Leafspys soh varies over the year. Our leaf had 82.6% soh wen we bought it in November but it has 91% soh now. Rapid charging, running the battery empty and cold weather actually temporarilly raises soh. 91% in winter after 3.5 year is actually not very good. The only proven way to degrade the battery is heat and full soc. Please do not tell people to just full charge and leave it full. Especially innwarmer climates this will without a doubt degrade the battery faster. Leafs 100% soc is actually 96-97% but still the 80% limit on older cars was not without reason. If 100% is needed charge timers work great and the improve range in winter due to warming up the battery with the charge.
Your lucky you don’t have a 2012 . I have 9 bars it has been that way for a year and i have 41,000 miles . I needed the 2013 or newer like Ian Sampson .
Mark Fitzpatrick yes, the 2012 Nissan Leafs are quite notorious for loosing range. If I were looking to the 2nd market I would look at 2015 models and onwards
When I get home after 10pm I will send you 2 leaf spy photos via Twitter if that's OK ?
Neil Maddox 👍
Ask yourself this why has Elon musk invested so much time and effort in producing a SUPERCHARGING network if rapid
charging is so bad for your battery. The cells are carefully thermally managed with a water jacket to stop them from exceeding critical temperatures. so you can guess what SUPERCHARGE all day long. Even if there is a small amount of degradation caused by this, guess what its not detectable even with instruments. Go ask Jack Ricard EVTV
Rumour tells us Nissan do not warrant for reduced range, only battery failure. 60% charge at end of warranty? No warranty claim.
That stinks, Hector. As a rule of thumb, when a cell is at 70% SOH, then it's usually in its terminal stages, and can only be recharged fully a relatively few more times.
*Bad show, Nissan!*
AGAIN DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON, HIS INFORMATION MAY SEEM EASY TO DIGEST AND SPOON FEED YOU.
BUT ITS MIS INFORMATION