What is Moment of Inertia? (The Heart of The Marble Machine)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ค. 2024
- More Moment Of Inertia = Tighter Music!
And yeah, i could have discussed a few things better in the video: I think the way to design a wheel like this would be to always leave the hub on the shaft and then just add the spokes/OD perimeter in pie sections, lets say 6 or 8 sections. So we are not disassembling the shaft and gearing/timing belt at all, we are just removing/adding stupid pieces of heavy metal to the hub. The alignment/balancing of the wheel *should be easy*TM to get well within requirements. And the reduced need for speed will also help. We can put most of the weight on the OD where it is doing most work.
In a way this was the final missing piece for me personally, the visual identity is in place. All that remains is to grind everyday for a couple of years here we go!
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not to dismiss the positive side effects, but there are also some important negative side effects:
1) more moment of inertia means you need better safety systems, because the danger scales similar to moment of inertia. This will be a big problem, especially when trying to find venues that would host wintergatan + machine
2) more moment of inertia means more vibrations if the flywheel is not running perfectly true. Especially on tour, big mechanical things get bumped and slightly deformend, so this is something that will only truly be visible after some time. Those vibrations are especially dangerous for shows outside of full time music halls with a solid floor. Festivals/mobile stages build their stage surface out of stagedecks/scaffholding, that is very durable for heavy compression loads, but suseptible to vibrations/dynamic loads.
I think it is important to have these things in mind when designing, because with the current plan, it looks like you are building a machine that might be able to play music, but can never leave your show, because no music venue can/wants to handle it
Point 1) is very important for sure.
But point 2), not really. For a given angular momentum, if you increase radius (and moment of inertia) keeping mass constant, you can then reduce angular speed.
And as a net effect, this reduces the overall vibrations.
Great points! It would have to have a gigantically heavy base. Those giant example machines were bolted straight into concrete, and giant cast iron behemoths.
Let's not forget ensuring a stage that can support it; you don't want to limit the venues if there are very few that can take the load (both static and dynamic)
Well, with such a large wheel it can spin relatively slowly and thus the vibrations can be mitigated with just good bearings and maybe some slightly vibration-dampening mounting.
Yeah, the minimum viable product idea has gone out the window, really. this is maximum non-viable
Balancing a flywheel is very important. Balancing a flywheel every time you take it apart to transport it might be impractical.
How about 50 RPM?
@@Culpride hundreds of kilograms on a few m wide wheel at 50 rpm? That's a beast. Not a sawmill beast but a beast nonetheless.
I have my doubts regarding the need to rebalance everytime its dissasembled. The angle of inbalance is what would matter after the first balancing and on a flywheel like this, standard tolerences would lead to a very tiny angle through assemebly and reassemebly.
.02 mm aint much compared to a two meter flywheel!
😅
Of course I assume it would be reassembled the same way every time
@@AnonymousAnarchist2 the balance is not only about the angle at each part of the circumference connected to sprockets but also every single angle of sprockets, length and weight. To reassemble it every time in the same way while it would be extremely heavy (because it will be) they would require a whole precision team just for the setup. Have you ever tried bike wheel centering? For some it would take minutes, for most it can take hours and it is flexible enough to be recentered with few screws and a light hammer. Now make it 10 times bigger, 200 times heavier and partitioned into modules.
@@MapedMod yeah I'm thinking it's going to millimeters out of round every single time. It's not realistic to assume a big heavy flywheel can be reassembled multiple times with microns of precision.
Does the flywheel need microns of precision? I don't know. Probably not. But it needs millimeters of precision I'm guessing otherwise it's going to get sloppy over time
i just love how you are just casually sliding in and out of sanity throughout this project
haha! now he thinks i would like to see him transporting a giant fly wheel around the world. which i do of course.
'love' ... i think he is clearly struggling with metal health stuff and potentially doesnt realise it.
@@Nooticus and there seem to be people paying for his lunacy
@@christianvitroler5289 lets not use the word 'lunacy'. he does need to get help though.
Fiancee: "So it's steampunk" . Martin, I kid you not, less than one second later: "NOT STEAMPUNK" HAHAHAHA
I mean, it literally is though.
@@CornDogShaun Nope. Clockpunk, which is lovely.
@@CornDogShaun He explained the difference quite clearly and his explanation makes sense: steampunk is just form because it looks cool, while industrial is form from function.
Just glue some gears on it and call it steampunk,
That's the trendy fashion nowadays.
A copper painted chunk of some 1980s junk
Will fetch a pretty penny on eBay.
Steampunk removes the horrendous working conditions and human rights violations from the industrial revolution to make it fun. I'd take steampunk over OSHA violations any day.
Please put a shield on this wheel! Either into the wheel or better - a transparent wall on both sides. Industrial age had a lot of people with fractional numbers of limbs excactly because of these huge flywheels...
Didn’t he do that for the flywheel on the MMX? I don’t see why he wouldn’t here too.
@@tedioustotoro4885 because it big and heavy and it will not stop for such trivial things as arms or bones
Absolutely and they are going to be near it so its a real risk.
What if, instead of a shield, we make it out of super lightweight materials packed full of hydrogen, so that if it does break and fall off, it floats away. Just don't do an American tour with it, or some dumbass is going to shoot it.
This introduces new problems, @@UnfamusOfficial. Mainly, the point is it's heavy. That dm term in the formula shows us that the heavier, the higher the moment of inertia. Thus, lighter materials result in a much worse flywheel.
There's also the concern of the hydrogen leaking, possibly exploding, etc
You gotta find one buff dude to take on tour who starts pumping half an hour early to get the huge flywheel up to speed before the concert.
probably will compensate by being lighter and turn slower, so same power input of the current one. and safer too
I have to wonder how long it will take to get up to speed...? Also, this device will be used throughout the concert. Will it keep on spinning between songs? You will have to isolate the power so you can change your pin drums safely. I hope this will be mitigated as the design progresses.
@@tomnesler2089когда люди придумали маховик, тогда же придумали и сцепление.
Конечно между песнями будет вращаться.
Put it in an enclosure, get it spinning back home, transport it while spinning and it's ready to go on the stage. 🙂
Get Hannes to do it
It also becomes increasingly more dangerous to work around... if unprotected.
what if the larger size means it can move more slowly?
@@PabloEdvardo then it will slowly crush you instead of fast... Safety is going to be a topic
There will have to be some kind of plexiglass or other kind of shield
Bah, no Victorian worker ever died around these ginormous flywheels.
An instrument of death? That's fucking metal.
In 5 years Martin is going to just convert a real steam engine tractor into a moving marble machine. Touring on its own.
"Hello, and welom back to wintergatan Wednesdays. I've revisited Siegfrieds Mechanisches Musikkabinett to take a closer look at this really cool steam powered organ..."
As someone who works with those old machines (I work with the Rough & Tumble Engineers Museum), assembly and balancing of these flywheels is a time consuming and delicate process. We are also mounting them in very stable concrete and steel foundations. There is a reason that the engines on more unstable platforms, such as traction engines and tractors, are much smaller. The smaller flywheels move at faster RPMs to make up for the inertia. (For example our largest stationary engine has a eight ton 12' flywheel that would operate at 75 RPM whereas our Traction Engines have 40"-50" flywheels that run around 200-250 RPM)
Previous video's comments : "a one meter flywheel could be a safety hazard"
This week's Martin : "so anyway, here's a 2 meters flywheel"
Bigger is *safer* lol, you can make it weigh much less but have the same inertia.
Hey Martin, just a few thoughts connected to risk management here:
1- The more inertia, the easier your leg will be cut if going into the spinning wheel, build it safe! :P
2- You should have backup plans for if the giant wheel (or whatever is driving it) fails during the world tour, because it will be complex enough to transport one of those. For example, have an electrical engine available as a last resort, paired with a video projector projecting a loop of the big fly wheel spinning in the back.
3- Make sure that the flywheel can be safely mounted/dismounted in different pieces to ease transportation (keyword being "safely" here, you don't want a piece of the flywheel to fly off into the crowd)
Reminded me of people trying to catch a baseball from the bleachers and falling over eachother.
I've said it from the beginning, the flywheel is stupid. If you use a motor, you can solve 90% of the problems and save 90% of the time, but he doesn't care. His machine is not a classical machine. It has a lot of electronic parts , so there won’t be any difference even if a motor is used,He's just an arrogant bastard wasting everyone's donated money
Not to add to all the other comments saying similar things, but:
- an unbalanced flywheel causes vibrations
- a bigger unbalanced flywheel causes even bigger vibrations
- having the flywheel be constructed from sections bolted together creates bigger risks in balancing because there is always an opportunity for play in the boltholes / slightly lighter or heavier nuts & bolts / inconsistent assembly
- vibrations are great at causing bolts to work loose, so you'll need to be really sure that they are tight
- if bolts come loose, you get an even more unbalanced flywheel, so you could get an exponential loosening of bolts
Additionally:
- a flywheel frame of that size should be anchored to the stage (which few venues will be willing to arrange)
- if the flywheel is unbalanced for just one gig you could deform the axle, meaning it could be impossible to balance again
- obviously, vibrations from the flywheel could easily also damage or partially disassemble the frame that holds it over time
If they flywheel only spins at 1-2hz it probably won't be a big issue. It also doesn't need to be that heavy either. at 2.5 meters dude could literally make it out of Styrofoam.
This brings up an issue that we talked about back in the governor video. Because ithe flywheel has a large moment, it wants to keep spinning at the same speed. which it means it is hard for the governor to regulate its speed. the effectiveness of the governor goes away and the "tightness" is controlled entirely with the flywheel's moment. when connecting it so the governor as just an "overspeed" governor (like the last one designed) the brakes will need to be very powerful to restrict the speed of a large flywheel once it gets to speed. on the other side the power input to the flywheel will need to be very strong to keep it up to speed and work against the governor when the output energy fluctuates. it is like a linear DC electric power supply. You cant put a huge capacitor on a small transformer, it can't charge the filter capacitor fast enough to keep it a constant voltage when the load fluctuates. The flywheel needs to be matched to the input energy available. so If you want a large flywheel (I get it it looks cool!) your Huygens drive weight will need an equally heavy weight. which will make it very hard to lift. Or you can make a large flywheel that is lighter (still looks cool). I would look carefully into the potential load, and especially its fluctuations (Frequency and amplitude) and size the flywheel for the best efficiency of the H-Drive and governor.
Naaaww ALL We need Is A Coo coo clock Pendulum to keep the motion in a synchronous Restarts
The huge wheel doesn't need to store more energy. It likely wouldn't be lighter, so moment of inertia would be higher, but it can compensate by being slower, so overall energy stored is similar and does not require higher energy input from pedals or govenor. Slower also means less vibration issues, because 1/rev will be much lower than natural frequencies of any other connected modules or the support structure.
@@piokul Moment is not necessary about the amount of energy stored. it is about how quickly the the energy in the flywheel can be changed. in order to stay at a constant rotational speed, the amount of energy being taken out needs to be a small percentage of the energy available. This is why a flywheel with a large angular momentum does not rapidly fluctuate in speed in response to fluctuating energy output. So the flywheel either needs to be small and heavy or large and lighter, but the angular momentum in the flywheel (kinetic energy) remains the same. But in the same way that this large flywheel resists quick speed fluctuations by the machine, it also resists being sped up by the H-Drive. so the H-drive needs to be quite powerful to bring the flywheel back up to speed in a timely fashion. So trying to regulate the speed with both a flywheel with a lot of angular momentum and a governor is difficult to do. especially when the H-Drive has a constant power output (determined by gravity) and the machine has a variable demand. the size of the H-Drive, the size of the Flywheel, the load of the machine, and the function of the governor need to be carefully tuned for highest efficiency, because the available human power feeding the system is not a lot. there is little room for waste.
@@kirbymurdstone4925 I don't agree. If you have the same amount of energy stored, you will not need more power. Power is energy over time. With more power over the same time period, by definition you get more energy stored. I am talking about a scenario, where we keep it similar. For high moment imertia, if you keep stored energy at the same level, you will just end up with dramatically lower speed. But the power required to bring it there is the same. As is the power required to govern it.
@@piokul I think you're both right depending on some very specific assumptions.
In general, if you look at the flywheel as a black box that has an input shaft and stores energy, it doesn't matter if it is big and slow or small and fast.
What matters is how much energy it stores at any given rpm of _input_shaft_
The shape of energy/rpm for rotating objects is the same and if at say 100rmp it stores 100J it doesn't matter how fast or how big the insides are.
If I were to guess what happens when/if this thing gets built, I'll say this thing will be such a pain to tune to keep constant rpm that Martin will slap an electric motor with some simple pid controler...
"drummer, two musicians, bass player" correct! :)
Also laughed at that one 😊
As a bass player I approve this message.
5:40
"Which means..."
Bigger flywheel gets the girls, everytime
xD
1:11 No, speed influences angular momentum, not moment of inertia (but it is a related concept, though).
Correct. While rotational speed does not affect an objects moment of inertia, the faster it is spinning, the longer it will spin for when an unbalanced force such as friction is applied to it. At larger speeds, the ratio between the total speed of the flywheel and the change in speed over time due to friction is higher than at lower speeds, so theoretically, it would mean playing at a faster tempo also makes the music tighter. For example it is easy to hear a change from 240 bpm to 180 bpm is, but a change from 240 bpm to 239 bpm is barely noticeable. If we assume that the change in the beats per minute is constant due to kinetic friction, its a lot less noticeable at a higher bpm when compared to a lower bpm. What Martin said was a little misleading since he is not referring to moment of inertia but to the change in angular momentum (impulse) of the flywheel. If you apply the same force to the flywheel when is rotating fast and when it is rotating slow, it would take longer to stop the flywheel when it is rotating faster, or alternatively a larger force would be needed to stop the wheel in the same amount of time.
physically they are the same concept. the difference is just calculus
@@gunar.kroeger No it's not. The angular momentum of a wheel is its moment of inertia times its angular velocity! In other terms, the moment of inertia is a fixed property, but the angular momentum depends on the rotational rate of the wheel.
@@dvo9166 As a cabinetmaker, I have.....no idea what you are talking about but seems right to me! 🙂
@@gunar.kroeger Moment of inertia is like mass. If you take the same amount of mass and move it farther out on a flywheel, you'll have a larger moment of inertia, but moment of inertia is the same regardless of speed (just like your mass doesn't change regardless of how fast you're going (for practical purposes, as long as you're nowhere near the speed of light...))
It's really super cool, but you might wanna make the flywheel a fair amount lighter than it could be for safety reasons. Large rotating objects have gotten loose and killed before. And they will kill again.
Such an ominous comment
I'm starting to worry about the weight and logistics being very exclusionary of venues.
That flywheel is likely to exceed the weight capacity of a lot of stages, and you're likely going to need a forklift for assembly, which is also something not a lot of venues can support, at least comparatively.
the solution is to make an even bigger but lighter flywheel
With a bigger flywheel, you don't need as much weight to get the same affect. There would need to be a balance of speed, size, and weight. You can have the same weight of a flywheel and spin the wheel at a lower rpm and get similar inertia to a small wheel, for example. It wouldn't necessarily be all that different. Another example is that a lower rpm with a bigger wheel would have the same forces acting on the material at the ends of the wheel as a smaller wheel with a higher rpm.
@@grantchereskin729 If there is a good balance, I'm sure Martin will find it. Worst case: two flywheels
Quite the contrary: a larger flywheel allows it to be lighter.
No worries - just three or four videos and he will build the venue as well to bring along on his world tour....
I hope you cover the flywheels with acrylic because two people standing in front of the big one and paddling can easily cause a terrible accident
YES the almighty crusher..
Yeah, one misstep and Martin becomes two small Martins
Посмотри на модель: для того, чтобы попасть в маховик, нужно перелезть через пульт. Как это сделать, Карл?!!
I think I commented a while back that you should make the flywheel as large as you can, when you were experimenting with flywheels.
So glad that you realized this was the way to go !
Bigger flywheel means, for the same moment of inertia, lower rotation speed, which means less vibrations.
that 2.5m wheel didn't look big until you brought it into frame
That was the standard Man crusher.. my bad boss my foots crushed
Now we get to learn about floor loading and foundations.
MVP = minimum viable product. The bare-bone functionality you need the product to work
This is the Beginning of the End for the MM3. The Nail in the Coffin where Martin AGAIN is starting to FEEL himself through the project instead of making a minimum viable product. I was on board when he went modular but now its seems to be used used as an excuse to baloon every Component of the MM3 into its own impossibly large Project.
I worked for the leading cable car manufacturer and they had similar problems with transporting the huge cable wheels in the station so they began to split them in to 4 parts so they fit in to standard shipping containers. Maybe this could be a source of inspiration and a deeper look into the design they came up with would be worth it.
"drummer, 2 musicians, and bassist", shots fired lol
I really like that with this design is less martin+machine and a band. Good move to be two in the middle!! Less focus on you and more focus on the machine
I love that I've seen you go from form is king to function is king and now finding a path where both are important. I look forward to seeing you build the new machine!
So around 8 years ago you had built the first Marble machine, it worked, you played music with it. After that for the last 8 years nothing really happened. No new music came out, you moved twice(?) in that time (did not see as far as I could tell any "new" studio tour or if there is any), there was back in the days some talking about some CNC skills and machinery... but in the last coupe of month/years nothing really happened. I mean the actual newest version of the marble machine must at least be named "marble machine project 2024" but it seem not much in common with the old idea of a portable music box machine. I could not even imagine how expensive concert tickets would be, because of the enormous work and hours before a concert to screw together the hundreds of parts until that instrument would only work.
So, when will we see some new music, studio tour, timeline when there would be anything other then building tiny parts and throwing them away after some month, etc. ?
I bet Martin’s starting to understand that such “planning” phase is actually the most fun and most interesting part of such a project.
Cycle of Martin:
Overcomplicate
Learn a new mechanic
Change Everything - Repeat
Making circles like a flywheel.
Sure, but I think with each iteration he gets better and closer to the finish line. Success is not in a straight line here, but an upwards spiral
@@frasnosrep2that is not true. A headless chicken can walk but that doesn't mean it will get a anywhere before it runs out of time
"Pain is temporary, Glory is forever"
-Martin's Angle Grinder.
...who incidentally benefits a lot from Martin's approach.
@@Michallote sure, but Martin is not headless, the overall goal of the project is always front and center. Ok, some videos may seem like “detours”, but that’s part of the fun also
Having more moment of inertia also means that its harder to change the tempo while playing. This is something to consider since you also want to keep the machine dynamic.
The Huygens drive will keep the drive wheel spinning at the same rpm the whole time. Tempo is set by the programming wheels.
@@darkiee69 Huygens drive delivers constant torque and the machine is a variable load - speed with vary
@@furmekлюди уже давно придумали коробку передач.
@@darkiee69what if Martin wants to slowly decrease tempo in a song? Or suddenly increase it?
@@octavio2895he does not know what tempo means.
I love this video. also, the bigger, the slower it needs to spin, the balancing becomes less of an issue, so disassembly is a good option
Remember that video 8 months ago where you did careful testing and determined that using the gravity drive with a small flywheel resulted in way tighter music than the large flywheel?
And don't forget that the larger the flywheel, the harder it is to control the tempo, because it takes a long time for the wheel to respond if you're, say, playing too slow and push harder to "catch up". Because of the slow response time, it's easy to overcompensate, and wind up too fast...
You could power the machine with the harnessed hype of the audience turned into kinetic energy lol.
I'm glad to see a short video concentrated on a specific subject. You even included a small demonstration of moment of intertia. I can see that you are still keen on keeping up the quality on your videos even while being very busy planning this project!
I remember watching him make that flywheel in the german workshop and that size alone made me scared.
A bigger flywheel would be lethal, not only to the performers, but to the audience as well!!
I'm not trying to dissuade from your ideas, but this one is really scary
We should try to dissuade him, though. This is the worst idea he's had in the entire Marble Machine history.
He’s not going to be putting more power into the bigger wheel (except for 2 people pedaling, but that just means the potential input has increased to match the required power output). The bigger wheel will be spinning slower than a smaller wheel with the same energy storage target.
At the revolutions per minute (RPM) he needed with the small flywheel I would totally agree.
But at this size 1 rev. per second might already be enough momentum.
Still plenty fast to remove an arm, but the engineering for this type of power storage has literally been improved for 100 years.
Remember when Martin introduced the pedal to power the MMX? If no one told him that this new approach might crush his foot ... but big flywheels are a solved problem. The bearing manufacturing people know exactly what forces to expect and what precautions need to be taken and what will brake first and how to decouple the damage from expensive parts and from operators/stage crew/audience. This time there are people who know.
Bigger wheel will be lighter
Not understanding the criticism of this one. It'll be slower and lighter than a smaller flywheel.
It's so interesting to see the evolution of the machine generations, great visual.
I love that everyone in the comments immediately went “oh boy, that’s gonna kill someone at the slightest malfunction!”
Flywheels are scary
@@Stormmblade They are. The stored power can be hard to assess. But luckily flywheels are old and thus the limitations and danger is well understood (at least from an engineering standpoint).
I'm sure the bearing manufacturers know a lot about the right precautions.
@@Culpride ,es, the dangers are well understood, the question is: does Martin understand the dangers? I wouldn't bet on it
@@EDLEXUS Worst case scenario: the audience gets a live decapitation on stage. That's not musical, but still pretty cool and unique ;-)
@@Culpride Yeah, I'm aware. I work in a machine shop. The only people I've seen who don't have a healthy respect for the potential risks of stored energy like that are either brand new to the field or a white collar working in the office.
Unfortunately, an enclosed flywheel isn't as intetesting to watch. Maybe he'll build the enclosure using some sort of acrylic or reinforced glass. We'll have to see what Martin decides to do
…. I’ve been watching for several years. After a brief hiatus, I came back to see this - - it’s completely completely different from your marvel machine :-)
Ohhh... i love that!!! No do it! That is sooo fitting! It's all we were looking forward to - it sets the focus - it's design - it's function - it's art!
Good to see the wheel turning!
Love it. Can’t wait to see a prototype.
Instead of continuing to build the machine, Martin turned into a physics teacher…
you should have a pedal station where people from the audience can provide power!
This is actually super cool idea! it would also invite people closer to the meat grinder so they could feel the light breeze of blood on their faces when someone slips on a marble!
Welcome to the new era, MarblePunk!
I cant wait to see the final machine.
Finally large enough to paint the Vitruvian Man on. Exquisite.
So not a fast bread slicer but a slow guillotine. Ok.
"Don't stick your bodyparty in the giant spinning wheel and don't drink the break fluid."
probably will compensate moment of inertia by being lighter and turn slower, so way safer
@@mathportillo The point of it is literally to resist inertia. Doesn't matter how slow it is going.
😳……….🤦♂️
@@Owl90 you are absolutely right! I don´t know why I thought bigger and heavier would mean slower. Thanks for that
Awesome color correction man!
I like it. Congrats
It looks cool but it also made my anxiety skyrocket because if someone gets too close and gets something tangled in the wheel it feels like an accident hazard
So no long hair, frills or wide dresses near the giant machine with the spinning cogs, wheels and shafts anymore... I hope you pardon my sarcasm (or is it synicism?), but I don't think any of the marble machines where designed to be safe for casual interaction.
the wheel will not have exposed spokes in the end (he didn't mention it but I know he is smart enough to know that.) there will be some kind of disk to cover it. maybe clear plastic, or maybe even some kind of cool design that adds to the visual effect when in motion.
great to be subscribed! Its inspiring to me as an artisan of several media. 🦌❤️👍
This is starting to feel more real than the other machines did and its not even being built yet
I love the idea of a huge wheel as the center piece for the machine! Looks so cool.
It also gives me another opertunity to push my "Saft first" agenda and sugest you may want to encase it in some kind of clear perspex box (or something stronger like bulletproof glass xD) to make sure no one gets any limbs accidentally caught in it, and everyone is protected from catastrophic failier. Especially now it's even bigger with even more inertia!! Machines were one of the number one killers in work place deaths at the time of the industrial revolution. ;)
Huge fan of the industrial revolution direction! That definitely excites me about the project.
The closer this project gets to being "heavy machinery," the more nervous I get about it operating in a concert (i.e. alcohol-heavy) environment. I have faith that you'll go above and beyond and do everything as safely as possible, but I'm glad I'm not responsible for such a beast in such a tumultuous environment.
7:23 That's called Clockpunk, one of the big four subgenres of punk. Machines with potential energy, instead of heat energy. (Steam, Clock, Diesel and Cyber are the most known, yet others exist.)
Probably a compilation of clock- and dieselpunk
Love the new Design. A big flywheel is exactly what you need.
But keep in mind that the precision will not be very good. This means you have to expect a lot of Vibrations from the wheel. I would therefore recommend to mount it on a separate frame and drive it only with belts. This should protect the rest of the machine.
Lg
The large moment of inertia must come from somewhere. Currently the only energy input is from the pedals and you must calculate how much both power and energy it requires to keep this going for a whole show. Then answer the question if it is reasonable for you (and perhaps Evelina) to provide that during a whole show. I think that some form of electrical motor assist will be necessary, not unlike how electrical bicycles work.
It's not going to be the entire show, it'll be a feature in the show.
The moment of inertia is just a property of the wheel. It doesn't change.
The energy that is put into the machine is used up by friction and by lifting the marbles. Both of these can be calculated and thus the needed imputpower for sustained play is known.
If more power (energy per time) is used up than the performer(s) can put in, we need other power (motors, helpers)
or limit the song length since the energy storage is finite (prelifted huygen-drive, prespun wheel).
The flywheel will be powerd by a Huygen drive. The Huygen drive will be powered by the pedals, which can take a whole body weight and with two people it's much easier.
@@gutterg0d I can see both variants as a cool feature: The machine slowly ramping up at the start of each song, or the machine running as long as the show is running.
@@Culpride you are absolutely right, and I'm sorry (and a little bit embarrassed) that I used moment of inertia wrong. I actually know better but sometimes my brain farts... Yes most of the needed energy output is possible to calculate and the rest can probably be estimated with reasonable error margins.
This makes me think of the old steam engines of the london bridge. It was impressive to see them in person, and they had nothing to do with steampunk, just beautifull industrial machinery. If Martin can combine that style with his own touch, it could work for me.
The doubters are only working with numbers, but Martin, you? you are working with dreams! let the dreampunk vision carry the project!!!
Seeing the comments care of martin safety makes me feel relieved.
Two things, first, orange blocks appear to be dangerous. Second, there isn’t a health and safety guy anywhere that will allow a 2 meter rotating flywheel in a public venue. The only way you could do it would be with an ultra light weight fake flywheel moving at relatively slow speed
I commented about this on the last video, if you want a large flywheel so you can have a nice visual spectacle for the audience just make something decorative and have a smaller safer flywheel tucked away nearby.
Next tour name: Wintergatan’s Marble Revolution
Yes! Bigger is better! I'll be interested to see how tight the music will be with the universal joints or gears, allowing you to rotate the flywheel.
Hi Martin! I'm not sure you'll ever see this comment, but since you got back to sketchking, I kept thinking for weeks about leavers machine as an inspiration for your machine. Leavers machine were used especially in the city of Calais in France, and used to create lace. What reminded me of your machine is the Jacquard system, used to create the motives : it looks like a barrel organ, and for having seen it in action, it's a wonderful piece of industrial revolution, whichi perfectly plays the sheets to produce a beautiful piece of art.
Man, with the addition of the gigantic on-stage flywheel, this whole project is starting to give me major Dethklok concert vibes.
@Wintergaton Martin have you considered using a raked stage? A stage where the back is higher in elevation than the front. Love the progress
I feel like we have people walking on Mars before this machine is finished 😅
You have to move the two other sections further out. That just means longer drive shafts, which is easy as pie. Having more space in the middle will open up the "vanity view" for a larger audience and give you more options for marble flows and scene shenanigans.
Nice!
You argue that the bigger the fly wheel, the better for the sound and how tight it is. There has to be diminishing returns and at some point, some other components will induce some timing errors that will render any gains from a bigger flywheel meaningless.
Yes, it is super cool and that is probably a good enough reason to do it. But how sure are you that 2.5 meters will produce measurably tighter music versus 2 meters, or 1.5 meters etc?
in the video from last August (watch?v=9X2J8JN9g-k) Martin found the corellation between angular momentum and tightness of music.
I don't see why there should diminishing retuns to the size in terms of timing errors.
The corellation and the formula for angular momentum state "bigger is better" but there will definitely be limits (materials, safety, space above the stage, transportability ect.) so two meters
Martin has been changing the definition of "tight music" every time he measures "tightness". He needs to pick _one_ definition and stick with it.
I recommended: "No _random_ variations in the spacing between notes. If you set the programming pins so that you have a note played every 0.25 seconds, but the note plays every 0.3 seconds, without any variation, _that's good._ If it plays every 0.25-0.3 seconds, _slowly varying_ in a _predictable_ way, _that's okay._ The rest of the band can adjust their tempo to match the MM3."
But Martin wants … well, he wants fixed tempo, exact tempo, fixed-energy-output, no variation between marble drops, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He redefines what he means by "tightness" to be whatever it is he's decided to go and measure _this time._
I fuss about it because I can see the trap Martin is creating for himself, and I want him to succeed. He ain't gonna if he keeps redefining a criteria he's hell-bent on fulfilling.
This is getting more amazing each video you release. I'm so hyped
Your music stings remind me of the commercial breaks for the anime BECK. Wicked sick.
It's starting to look like a W (for Wintergatan) in the center of the machine with the angle of those conveyor belts.
This is great.
YAY! Super happy for you! So glad you've got a big inspiration! If I may humbly request: I'm in love with the color of the MM1. And that's the color that a quarter billion viewers are used to seeing. I totally support your decision to go with an industrial evolution theme, but please don't lose one of most eye-catching aspects of the MM1 in the process. I'd be sad if you ditched the plywood look entirely in favor of an all-steel look. Keep chasing your dream! :)
MARTIN IS THE HEART OF THE MARBLE MACHINE
There is no way that any music venue is going to allow you to use this, and there's no way that insurance is going to cover it.
No biggy brednek 'merca. YALL 'ot build that at my fleea market
probably will compensate moment of inertia by being lighter and turn slower, so way safer
Just more reason to do it! 🤣
They allow explosive and highly flammable compounds on stage, that are triggered by eye by the pyrotechnician. The performers are instructed where they can't stand. If that is legal, then having a moving object and a defined clearance zone shouldn't be a problem. The problem arises when you want to have guests on stage: Just telling people what they're not allowed to do is no longer good enough. You have to physically restrict them from doing it anyway.... I hate this world.
@@christopherlamott9351 it would be weirdly poetic for Martin to finally build a fully working machine only to be unable to actually take it on tour for this reason. Not in a good way
pictures of this machine are gonna look so cool once it's in concert
Giant flywheel? Occupational health and safety has entered the chat
The biggest assumption that Martin is making that I am worried about now is that it will be possible to play music the way he wants to while simultaneously pedaling that giant machine. I'm glad that he at least somewhat addressed the large power requirements. However, I know from personal experience testing just this thing that the ability to focus on different tasks while maintaining a somewhat constant power output is incredibly demanding and difficult. I hope that Martin doesn't become a victim of task saturation in the future!
All Martin has to do is never mention any safety precautions for the fly wheel and he will triple his comments per video. 😂
Putting LEDs on the big wheel could create really cool graphic effects as the Fly wheel spins !
I’m not going to lie, the smaller machine frame really made the machine cute and interesting, more personable. But as long as it becomes something that tours, it doesn’t really matter
Dreampunk I LOVE IT so much!!
You have to think about safety as well.
With a big flywheel you can store a lot of energy. If something fails that energy will go somewhere.
There might already regulations around this that you HAVE to follow.
Machine Designer for 12 years here... this is the awesome shit, biggest wheel is best wheel, it's functional based on the design goals. Dooo iiiiit.
Not to mention more mass is less sensitive to dynamic loading, you can ignore flex on the system, form and function from one decision ftw
best Idea
I hope you are talking to your band about all these changes. This new design is really going to change the band dynamics.
Notice how the governors of all those industrial machines are also all mounted high and in evidence, I think this should also be possible (and very nice to see!!) on this new MM configuration
Oh I just realized there is one in the CAD of the concept as well :)
If you want a large flywheel, what if you make something purely aesthetic?
As others have pointed out, an actual functional gigantic flywheel poses several problems for venues (mechanical capability) and safety (loss of limbs).
It could still communicate what the machine is doing, but since it's aesthetic you could e.g. make it safer and less prone to the venue issues because it only has to function as an art/heart piece?
It *does* still come from function even if it's ultimately just a prop. But it won't kill people or limit your venue selection on tour.
TOTALLY will watch this when not in a public place cuz no one likes noise but keep on keeping on in the guess who rockin the tunes; Rockingon Amazing Artist AAA Love what Y OU !!!!DO!!!
Martin is going to stumble backwards during one of his future shows and get decapitated by his giant spinning flywheel. Now that's steampunk!!!
To me, "industrial revolution" screams to me "horrendous industrial accidents". Imbalance in the wheel (which is significantly exacerbated by taking it apart every time), huge moving parts, extreme pinch points, all one step away from the performer. Plus, as you were touting, there is a lot of momentum there, so you can't stop it quickly enough if something goes wrong. Get a sleeve caught in that and it will tear your arm off. Don't balance it perfectly and it will likely shake itself apart and throw heavy pieces of metal around. I suppose it would make the show memorable, though.
He could charge more, too!
6:20 I had to LOL when Martin added the second person to be there to help power/drive the machine. It reminded me of the movie Pacific Rim where paired pilots were needed to operate the machine. This big machine has a lot of mass to move. It is going to need more than one person to power it.
I agree to make the flywheel as big as practically possible... My pessimistic site foresees that it'll be a hell to (statically and dynamically) balance it after assembly. So the biggest one without assembling might still be the practical solution.
to quote Marvin:
Incredible... it's even worse than I thought it would be.
Few things that are missing:
It's not the size but the linear speed that matters most - how you get there is up to you, spin wheel faster or build and carry bigger wheel with you.
On many machines shown in thet video the governor is connected to valve assembly not brake. you need the I term from PID to be able to keep constant speed with variable load. Translated: governor with brake will not be able to keep constant speed.
Thinking that flywheel will take quite a long time to get up to speed, like maybe 30 minutes. The spin-up with a spotlight on the wheel would make a great dramatic intro to the show before the band comes on stage. Also, keep it spinning the entire show, just decouple it and let it spin while changing the songs.
I wonder why everyone in the comments seems to expect a two ton steel wheel at 600 RPM
"The channel Way Out West - Workshop Stuff" has a video of a giant flywheel
"Balancing The Momentum Wheel - And Speed Trials!"
That guy brought it up to 60RPM in less than two minutes.
I doubt much more speed will be necessary/safe for the Marble Machine.
The total input energy should be about the same for the big wheel as it was for the small one last august. But instead of 640-960RPM it's 100
“Watching a wheel spin-up” as a good dramatic intro?! Sounds about as exciting as watching paint dry.