I like the perspective on perception rolls as a D20 for an action speed observation, thanks for that. And im picking up what you're laying down regarding a bodyflip as a defensive action might only be necessary in N&SS, but seeing it as an alternative to dodge was the first time I'd seen it as "useful" outside of cinematics. Even compared to the fairly simple martial arts in PF, it only seemed useful as an artistic way to express disdain for your opponent and a table simultaneously 😂, now its an option... "Do i take less bonus for an opportunity to get in some damage on defense?"
I'm not a fan of completely rewriting the rules of a game; however, something like Body Flip/Throw is an area where you can choose to add it in to your setting, or leave it out since it's not (technically) there. I understand and get the people who say the Palladium System is universal, so all of the books can be referenced for rules clarification; however, I also completely disagree with "You need to look it up over here in this book you don't have." I'm not going to bring seven core books to the table just to reference idiosyncrasies or additions that creeped in over time. You, as the game master, make the call for your table... whatever works for you, do it! 😁
Mime skill would be useful, if you rule it this way, to allow you to do some low-info-density communication with people/sentients whose languages you don't speak
In Palladium, especially when using the Rifts Conversion Books, many (even most) races take an OCC, and are not considered RCCs. Others are listed as RCCs, and that makes the rules murky at times. Sometimes they are written up like all members of that race belong to the RCC, and other times they aren't. Most races do list a selection of OCCs that the given race lean towards, especially one that are listed as a race and not an RCC. I never found it that hard to understand, but I can see why it would confuse newer players, especially players used to simpler systems (D20 Free League, etc)
Years ago, Heathendog stated in one of the videos that Rifts is the best SECOND game for players and GMs. For various reasons, he feels people should have another RPG under their belt before tackling Rifts. That's probably not a good selling point, but I understand where he's coming from... especially with regard to confusion for new players and all of the potential options.
TMNT and then most of the other Palladium systems were where I started TTRPGs before moving on to other systems (including D&D 2 and 3.X). One thing that I've heard man people say is "You will never find a Palladium character that hates math" I really can't disagree, but I don't find that to be a flaw either. The simplicity of D20 systems has positives, but I agree with you that the difference in Palladium that uses D20 for combat and percentile for skills makes a good distinction. Depending on the feel of the game I want, either Palladium (for darker/grittier games) or Mutants and Masterminds are my go to systems anymore. The guy complaining about the "wonky did I hit mechanic" and wanting to go to an AC system would kill everything I like about the Palladium combat system. The tactical options of do I dodge/parry/take the hit and counter or do something else instead are all examples of where I thought Palladium was MUCH better than D&D and many other systems.
Skills comment - since Rifts Earth is all about rebuilding civilization after 200 years of dark ages, a lot of obsolete skills should be renewed and be relevant, despite how dead they might have been by 2098.
I agree as far as RIFTS is concerned. I'm running a modern superhero game using Heroes Unlimited 2e and we find some of the skills dated in a 2024 game setting.
You addressed the answers i gave on the community post. Unfortunately I think there was a misunderstanding. For reference i said "no single die mechanic" and "the amount of skills". I am not an native English speaker, so maybe something was lost in translation or I didn't get my point across, mainly for the "no single die mechanic" part. I will explain but this may turn out a long post :) I'll split it up in a couple of comments.
I indeed wrote the earthdawn comment, but removed it during the stream. I saw you were having a lot of comments to sift through and the comment didn't really add anything to the conversation. I replaced it with a comment trying to clarify the skills thing (which after you read it, i think you saw my point more. the point i am trying to make here too basically) You gave the example of earthdawn, but to me earthdawn does have a single die mechanic ... you calculate the step, lookup the dice to roll, try to roll above a target number. same for combat, casting, climbing, social checks etc... In rifts you roll a d20 above a target number in combat, a d100 below a target number. So that's what i consider not a "single die mechanic": rolling over for this, rolling under for that. The target numbers are also not "the same" (bit difficult for me to explain this). Now that I read my own stuff here again though: maybe you read "single die" mechanic but I meant single "die mechanic" :) I can see how it can get confusing now though.
when reading the original question, it regarded it as "what do you feel is dated", not "what do you feel is dated and think needs to be changed". This is an important distinction I think. You addressed the statements as if I was complaining and said it has to be changed. That's not really the case. I am not saying it needs to be changed and don't really wanted to come over as complaining about it. In fact, changing the system by moving to a single D20 would make it no longer the palladium system. I also don't want everything to become the same game ... we saw what happened with the D20 system. Absolutely hated that. Let games be unique!
Regarding "dated". Let's make a silly example: let's say every game company moves away from making hardcovers and only produce softcovers anymore. I would not like that. They keep doing it for 10 years. A new RPG comes out after these 10 years and they print it in hardcover. would I call that "dated"? yes! That doesn't mean I want them to release a softcover though. Softcovers are inferior. This is how I interpreted the question. (A funny thing is that if you wait for long enough and less and less people remember the old days, suddenly things become "innovative" instead of "dated". Oh wow, a hardcover???!!! cool!) Anyways, thanks for reading all the way through to this (if you do so, otherwise you won't see this :) )
The balance they're refering to was most likely between characters, not characters vs enemies. That's usually refered to as encounter balance. Some semblance of balance between character options is important for all games, or people would just play the exact same fucking thing every single time. Like if you had 3 level one characters, - one which is pretty good at sneaking, has decent but not great defences and can do 1d8 damage per turn - one which is great at bartering and otherwise navigating social situations but is both frail and only outputs 1d4 damage per turn - and then one which is better than both those characters at their own niches + wilderness survival, acrobatics, observational skills, can pilot any vehicle, etc and is able to output 4d10 damage per turn then your game balance is dogshit and players are all gonna gravitate towards that same character option. You've not given them a meaningful choice. Balance isn't a dirty word. You can have a perfectly balanced game where characters are scared shitless because they know if they ever get in a fight they will die to the first attack. You can even have a perfectly balanced game where only one person in the party is scared shitless of fighting but they make up for that fragility in other aspects of the game. Balance is about making the options in character creation/progression interesting and making people excited to play their characters. God forbid players are allowed to have fun, i know.
Show me in Palladium where your example rings true. I have an upcoming TH-cam community post that will ask about this. It'll be available on either Sep 8th or 15th. Balance is an illusion. There's no such thing as balance. No game has ever perfected it. There are always preferred 'builds' whether it's a class-based game or a skill-based game.
Balance is about being useful and niche protection. It isn’t about being identical in combat. When a class invalidates several niche protection then it isn’t balanced. Dated isn’t bad. It is just a product of its time. Level, xp and class isn’t bad. It lets people understand how to play without long explanations. Milestone is getting certain xp based on actions or performing . People confuse milestone with session leveling. Keep the game as simple as possible and no simpler. Note different games require different simplicity for different groups. The RCCs and OCCs aren’t bad because you have enough skills to flesh out a character without feeling overly limited. Unless you are changing a major profession multi class isn’t needed. Hey don’t knock darts (plumbata) as weapons of war for a warrior. Watch Tods workshop on them
"Another one of these weirdos!", Lol, okay I'll take it. Thanks for addressing my comment. I probably didn't articulate my point as well as I could. I've been familiar with Rifts since the 90's, so I could sit down and digest the rules and relearn them... but I'm not sure players who are only used to 5e and modern games would find it as easy. And not having the time I did in the 90's, I would find it mentally cumbersome to try to explain it to an ADHD generation. I fully agree with you, rolling a d20 is boring. But it's something any Neanderthal can wrap their brain around. Perhaps it's Palladium takes some frontal lobe usage, and I'm not sure modern gamers have that ability these days.
I'm not convinced mechanics can be dated. I mean, is Chutes and Ladders dated? Some people like more math and verbose complexity. I'm not one of them, but I wouldn't consider such things dated.
I love your dice comment because it's how I feel. Everyone screams for D20 because they are lazy, conceptually lazy, they don't want to have to think, expand their pre-concieved notions. Percentile WORKS! In some ways, it allows for more nuanced gameplay. Sometimes I will resolve something with percentile because it seems to fit or sometimes with a "combat roll" (D20) because it fits. Palladium supports it. It's dynamic. It's also easy to apply bonuses and penalties. People who can't count, well.. grumpy old man mode.. that's a you problem, not a me problem. Figuring out percents and numbers from 1-100 is kindergarten level math. If you can't do that.. there might be something else wrong in your life.. and it's not Palladium Games's fault. EDITUS: For Juicer Conversion for a normal character. There were rules for it in IIRC the Juicer Uprising (was that the name of the book?) Lordy, it's been too long. But I remember there was an option for class conversion in regards to certain things/events, like Borgification or Juicing or whatever was the Splugorth Juicer thing in Rifts Atlantis. Just as there are rules for "de-juicing", very very punishing rules, but rules none the less. What is with people and their desire for zero-consequence gameplay. Bothers the hell out of me. No, getting blasted and borged is going to really mess with you, roll on the insanity table!
People like the d20 because it's big enough to functionally be a percentile die without as much fiddliness. It's a percentile in increments of 5, which is how i've seen most people use a percentile anyway. The d20 is just easier to read and harder to cheat than 2 d10s.
@@LordZeebee If you are at a table where cheating is a problem.. it's the wrong table with the wrong people. Simple. As for D20 vs D100 (percentile) it's mathematically "close" but functionally plays differently and creates a "difference in mind" between a skill check and a combat check. As he mentioned. D20 is a much more limited system in terms of nuance for skills. It's also mentally more simple, which I get. I've played D20 since there was D20. It has it's merits in pure simplicity. But Palladium isn't simple. It was never intended to be. Just as it was never intended to be balanced. Just as it was never intended to have hard bound rules vs being a skeletal framework where the GM does the heavy lifting. If you what hard balance/hard rule PF2E Remaster. You want more vague D20, DND. You want a framework that you master, Palladium. That's the nice thing about different games. Since the WOTC/HASBRO kerfluffle there are now a million fractioned D20 games whose differences are slight.. while Palladium stands apart.. as does GURPS.. or 2EShadowRun (D6 system).. It's important to have real variety not D20 x 1000 where the most notable thing about it is it's not DnD. Palladium is Palladium. It's not just "not DnD".
@@LordZeebee Indeed. I was just being specific and contextual. In general D20 is easier.. "faster".. and even from an honest perspective.. easier to "wing it". But I was able to do D100 winging it just fine. I am a grumpy old man of a GM.. just shaking my cane about the good old days and kids on my lawn really.
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Thanks for responding to my comment about the dated feel of some of the skills Max!
I like the perspective on perception rolls as a D20 for an action speed observation, thanks for that.
And im picking up what you're laying down regarding a bodyflip as a defensive action might only be necessary in N&SS, but seeing it as an alternative to dodge was the first time I'd seen it as "useful" outside of cinematics. Even compared to the fairly simple martial arts in PF, it only seemed useful as an artistic way to express disdain for your opponent and a table simultaneously 😂, now its an option... "Do i take less bonus for an opportunity to get in some damage on defense?"
I'm not a fan of completely rewriting the rules of a game; however, something like Body Flip/Throw is an area where you can choose to add it in to your setting, or leave it out since it's not (technically) there.
I understand and get the people who say the Palladium System is universal, so all of the books can be referenced for rules clarification; however, I also completely disagree with "You need to look it up over here in this book you don't have." I'm not going to bring seven core books to the table just to reference idiosyncrasies or additions that creeped in over time.
You, as the game master, make the call for your table... whatever works for you, do it! 😁
Mime skill would be useful, if you rule it this way, to allow you to do some low-info-density communication with people/sentients whose languages you don't speak
In Palladium, especially when using the Rifts Conversion Books, many (even most) races take an OCC, and are not considered RCCs. Others are listed as RCCs, and that makes the rules murky at times. Sometimes they are written up like all members of that race belong to the RCC, and other times they aren't. Most races do list a selection of OCCs that the given race lean towards, especially one that are listed as a race and not an RCC.
I never found it that hard to understand, but I can see why it would confuse newer players, especially players used to simpler systems (D20 Free League, etc)
Years ago, Heathendog stated in one of the videos that Rifts is the best SECOND game for players and GMs. For various reasons, he feels people should have another RPG under their belt before tackling Rifts.
That's probably not a good selling point, but I understand where he's coming from... especially with regard to confusion for new players and all of the potential options.
TMNT and then most of the other Palladium systems were where I started TTRPGs before moving on to other systems (including D&D 2 and 3.X). One thing that I've heard man people say is "You will never find a Palladium character that hates math" I really can't disagree, but I don't find that to be a flaw either.
The simplicity of D20 systems has positives, but I agree with you that the difference in Palladium that uses D20 for combat and percentile for skills makes a good distinction.
Depending on the feel of the game I want, either Palladium (for darker/grittier games) or Mutants and Masterminds are my go to systems anymore.
The guy complaining about the "wonky did I hit mechanic" and wanting to go to an AC system would kill everything I like about the Palladium combat system. The tactical options of do I dodge/parry/take the hit and counter or do something else instead are all examples of where I thought Palladium was MUCH better than D&D and many other systems.
Skills comment - since Rifts Earth is all about rebuilding civilization after 200 years of dark ages, a lot of obsolete skills should be renewed and be relevant, despite how dead they might have been by 2098.
I agree as far as RIFTS is concerned. I'm running a modern superhero game using Heroes Unlimited 2e and we find some of the skills dated in a 2024 game setting.
You addressed the answers i gave on the community post. Unfortunately I think there was a misunderstanding. For reference i said "no single die mechanic" and "the amount of skills".
I am not an native English speaker, so maybe something was lost in translation or I didn't get my point across, mainly for the "no single die mechanic" part. I will explain but this
may turn out a long post :) I'll split it up in a couple of comments.
I indeed wrote the earthdawn comment, but removed it during the stream. I saw you were having a lot of comments to sift through and the comment didn't really add anything to the conversation. I replaced it with a comment trying to clarify the skills thing (which after you read it, i think you saw my point more. the point i am trying to make here too basically)
You gave the example of earthdawn, but to me earthdawn does have a single die mechanic ... you calculate the step, lookup the dice to roll, try to roll above a target number. same for combat, casting, climbing, social checks etc...
In rifts you roll a d20 above a target number in combat, a d100 below a target number. So that's what i consider not a "single die mechanic": rolling over for this, rolling under for that. The target numbers are also not "the same" (bit difficult for me to explain this).
Now that I read my own stuff here again though: maybe you read "single die" mechanic but I meant single "die mechanic" :) I can see how it can get confusing now though.
when reading the original question, it regarded it as "what do you feel is dated", not "what do you feel is dated and think needs to be changed". This is an important distinction I think.
You addressed the statements as if I was complaining and said it has to be changed. That's not really the case. I am not saying it needs to be changed and don't really wanted to come over as complaining about it. In fact, changing the system by moving to a single D20 would make it no longer the palladium system. I also don't want everything to become the same game ... we saw what happened with the D20 system. Absolutely hated that. Let games be unique!
Regarding "dated". Let's make a silly example: let's say every game company moves away from making hardcovers and only produce softcovers anymore. I would not like that. They keep doing it for 10 years. A new RPG comes out after these 10 years and they print it in hardcover. would I call that "dated"? yes! That doesn't mean I want them to release a softcover though. Softcovers are inferior. This is how I interpreted the question. (A funny thing is that if you wait for long enough and less and less people remember the old days, suddenly things become "innovative" instead of "dated". Oh wow, a hardcover???!!! cool!) Anyways, thanks for reading all the way through to this (if you do so, otherwise you won't see this :) )
The balance they're refering to was most likely between characters, not characters vs enemies. That's usually refered to as encounter balance. Some semblance of balance between character options is important for all games, or people would just play the exact same fucking thing every single time.
Like if you had 3 level one characters,
- one which is pretty good at sneaking, has decent but not great defences and can do 1d8 damage per turn
- one which is great at bartering and otherwise navigating social situations but is both frail and only outputs 1d4 damage per turn
- and then one which is better than both those characters at their own niches + wilderness survival, acrobatics, observational skills, can pilot any vehicle, etc and is able to output 4d10 damage per turn
then your game balance is dogshit and players are all gonna gravitate towards that same character option. You've not given them a meaningful choice. Balance isn't a dirty word. You can have a perfectly balanced game where characters are scared shitless because they know if they ever get in a fight they will die to the first attack. You can even have a perfectly balanced game where only one person in the party is scared shitless of fighting but they make up for that fragility in other aspects of the game. Balance is about making the options in character creation/progression interesting and making people excited to play their characters. God forbid players are allowed to have fun, i know.
Show me in Palladium where your example rings true. I have an upcoming TH-cam community post that will ask about this. It'll be available on either Sep 8th or 15th.
Balance is an illusion. There's no such thing as balance. No game has ever perfected it. There are always preferred 'builds' whether it's a class-based game or a skill-based game.
Balance is about being useful and niche protection. It isn’t about being identical in combat. When a class invalidates several niche protection then it isn’t balanced.
Dated isn’t bad. It is just a product of its time. Level, xp and class isn’t bad. It lets people understand how to play without long explanations.
Milestone is getting certain xp based on actions or performing . People confuse milestone with session leveling.
Keep the game as simple as possible and no simpler. Note different games require different simplicity for different groups.
The
RCCs and OCCs aren’t bad because you have enough skills to flesh out a character without feeling overly limited. Unless you are changing a major profession multi class isn’t needed.
Hey don’t knock darts (plumbata) as weapons of war for a warrior. Watch Tods workshop on them
"Another one of these weirdos!", Lol, okay I'll take it. Thanks for addressing my comment. I probably didn't articulate my point as well as I could. I've been familiar with Rifts since the 90's, so I could sit down and digest the rules and relearn them... but I'm not sure players who are only used to 5e and modern games would find it as easy. And not having the time I did in the 90's, I would find it mentally cumbersome to try to explain it to an ADHD generation. I fully agree with you, rolling a d20 is boring. But it's something any Neanderthal can wrap their brain around. Perhaps it's Palladium takes some frontal lobe usage, and I'm not sure modern gamers have that ability these days.
I'm not convinced mechanics can be dated. I mean, is Chutes and Ladders dated? Some people like more math and verbose complexity. I'm not one of them, but I wouldn't consider such things dated.
Yes. They're awful. The TMNT rules for mutant animal creation with the BIOE are soooo good but they're on these lousy Palladium bones.
I love your dice comment because it's how I feel. Everyone screams for D20 because they are lazy, conceptually lazy, they don't want to have to think, expand their pre-concieved notions. Percentile WORKS! In some ways, it allows for more nuanced gameplay. Sometimes I will resolve something with percentile because it seems to fit or sometimes with a "combat roll" (D20) because it fits. Palladium supports it. It's dynamic. It's also easy to apply bonuses and penalties. People who can't count, well.. grumpy old man mode.. that's a you problem, not a me problem. Figuring out percents and numbers from 1-100 is kindergarten level math. If you can't do that.. there might be something else wrong in your life.. and it's not Palladium Games's fault.
EDITUS: For Juicer Conversion for a normal character. There were rules for it in IIRC the Juicer Uprising (was that the name of the book?) Lordy, it's been too long. But I remember there was an option for class conversion in regards to certain things/events, like Borgification or Juicing or whatever was the Splugorth Juicer thing in Rifts Atlantis.
Just as there are rules for "de-juicing", very very punishing rules, but rules none the less. What is with people and their desire for zero-consequence gameplay. Bothers the hell out of me. No, getting blasted and borged is going to really mess with you, roll on the insanity table!
People like the d20 because it's big enough to functionally be a percentile die without as much fiddliness. It's a percentile in increments of 5, which is how i've seen most people use a percentile anyway. The d20 is just easier to read and harder to cheat than 2 d10s.
@@LordZeebee If you are at a table where cheating is a problem.. it's the wrong table with the wrong people. Simple. As for D20 vs D100 (percentile) it's mathematically "close" but functionally plays differently and creates a "difference in mind" between a skill check and a combat check. As he mentioned. D20 is a much more limited system in terms of nuance for skills. It's also mentally more simple, which I get. I've played D20 since there was D20. It has it's merits in pure simplicity. But Palladium isn't simple. It was never intended to be. Just as it was never intended to be balanced. Just as it was never intended to have hard bound rules vs being a skeletal framework where the GM does the heavy lifting. If you what hard balance/hard rule PF2E Remaster. You want more vague D20, DND. You want a framework that you master, Palladium. That's the nice thing about different games. Since the WOTC/HASBRO kerfluffle there are now a million fractioned D20 games whose differences are slight.. while Palladium stands apart.. as does GURPS.. or 2EShadowRun (D6 system)..
It's important to have real variety not D20 x 1000 where the most notable thing about it is it's not DnD. Palladium is Palladium. It's not just "not DnD".
@@meatybtz I was just talking in general, wasn't refering to any specific game.
@@LordZeebee Indeed. I was just being specific and contextual. In general D20 is easier.. "faster".. and even from an honest perspective.. easier to "wing it". But I was able to do D100 winging it just fine. I am a grumpy old man of a GM.. just shaking my cane about the good old days and kids on my lawn really.