Police Officer: Sir, would you please come down from the tree? Shad: NO! You're just gonna yell at me. Police Officer: Sir, you can't shoot arrows from the tree in the public park.
I like people with long brain. I have long amount of disl*kes btw. Why? Maybe people with short brain disl*ke because jealous of my long amount of subscr*bers. Please have long brain, dear ta
A Mongol-style short recurve, including with a thumb-ring, is ideal. Partly 'cos the draw stance and movement is different as it is designed to be done from horseback. And those bows can be in the same draw weight range as a longbow.
@Paul Gauthier and if we look at tribes who live and fight in the jungles, they use short bows, short swords, and short spears so they can move around much easily. They also put poison on their weapons so even if a jungle archer only shot you in the leg or arm, you're fucked.
@@alexanderhood8993 Horse bows average 90lb - 120 lb compared to warbow 135lb - 160lb. It has to be said that being able to draw / aim / shoot from a horse is incredible and that the draw weight is probably less necessary when you can hit and run. Not sure if the design of a bow changes how much one can draw as the mechanic should be similar. So the horseback part is just a lot more skill involved but likely a lot less focused on the draw weight. Heaviest Mongol warbow was 166lb, but I couldn't find out if that was used on horseback specifically or if it just happened to be a Mongol warbow.
You make a good point about mobility. Around here most bow hunting is done with an elevated position be it in a tree or a structure. Many people (not me) even if they are using modern compound bows do pull a bow of 80 age to 100 lb. The difference is that deer, elk, and even bears don't shoot back. That's where I think elves and fantasy have the advantage. They can run along branches and do legolas acrobatics crap from tree to tree maintaining mobility in three dimensions while the enemy is restricted to two
I figure elves with their inhuman accuracy might also be able to get away with lower poundage bows by aiming for weak spots like eye holes or something.
Yeah but you need to have the skills of a trapeze artist to do that so even in elves I think only the elite fighters could be allowed to have that ability and in areas with extremely dense forests. Trees fight for light so they don't put branches big enough to support your weight close to another trees branch of that size. You are talking about leaping 10-15 feet from one balance beam to another. The springyness will absorb the impact of the landing but it will also absorb much of the force of the initial jump.
That has been quite enlightening! Thanks a lot, Shad! I'll put that knowlege to good use if I get around to sketching again or ever write a book. And if all that fails, at least I'll be able to use it as interresting facts to share in conversations. :)
Graceful Feminine Archer is actually kinda a funny trope when you consider their back and shoulder muscles are probably more defined than some melee fighters XD
Only if they have HUGE...tracts of land...to build those muscles, which would smack them across the chops every time they drew and released the thing...LOL...
It's interesting how this is also evident in history: indigenous cultures that developed in geographical areas characterized by thick forest, for example, tropical rainforests, tended to use shortbows with significantly lower poundage than European longbows and crossbows, and even central Asian composite recurve bows, for that matter. The thick vegetation would not only impede the drawing of longer, more powerful bows, but also drastically reduce the range at which combat, even ranged combat, would occur, thereby reducing the need for poundage of bows as powerful as longbows and crossbows. Add to this the fact that various tribes native to tropical rainforests also developed blowguns, javelins and darts to a significantly greater degree than they developed archery, and we could find sources to add more variety to what we arm fantasy forest elves and rangers with.
The availability of poison and armor also changes things a lot. If you have lots of poisonous/venomous animals that you can use for hunt or war, a blow dart is all you need to deliver the poison. Naturally, without plate armor, or even any iron, the necessity for heavy bows isn't there at all. I have been working on a fantasy setting of "monstrous" races and the largest military threat were centaurs, whose heavy cavalry was the terror of the plains. So naturally the harpies of this setting needed a weapon to fight a mobile, heavily armored enemy with long lances. And my solution was a kind of harpoon. A heavy short spear with a needle-like, weighted tip to be dropped in what amounts to dive bombing runs. Which would be very lethal on a hit, but also limit the amount of fighting they would do before flying back to one attack run.
I keep reminded of a demonstration in an Anthopology book where one of the last native tribe member showed his short bow before a white man stepped in to show power of civilization by using his long bow, which native explained how inefficient it would be in woodlands before being scoffed off.
@@TheZinmo The term ranged combat is used to refer to any kind of combat with projectile weapons. Even a thrown rock is an example of ranged combat. The term is used to distinguish it from melee or hand-to-hand combat, which includes both barehanded combat as well as armed combat using melee weapons.
>Shad subconsciously rants and rages at media when portraying bows wrong Welcome to the club, as a Firearms Instructor and competitive target shooter, movies and TV have been utter garbage ever since learning my skills and hobby.
I don't know anything about firearms, but my #1 gripe in any movie where bullets are present, is when the bullet hits the target with SUCH FORCE he is THROWN BACKWARDS SEVERAL METERS. Instead of, you know, the bullet going clean through. Silly me.
ABSOLUTELY! All of it - skills, equipment and with languages: as a Russian speaker, the marvel movies, etc. are just HORRIBLE!! I completely get it if a non native actor/actress is reading the lines and it isn't perfect... but why not hire actual speakers for those background 5 second characters? Use people who know and have already developed these skills (language,combat,etc.) needed to make quality and more believable productions.
Bows, firearms, swords, hand-to-hand combat, non-native languages, aircraft, etc.. Movies have people who don't know anything about the subject material, making media for an audience who doesn't know anything about the subject material. Actually, addendum.. not only do they not know, they don't care. That's why the majority of it ends up looking like for anyone who bothers to look.. and for the handful of filmmakers who bother to look for experts to ensure it looks right, the filmmaker's attention to detail is praised.
Shad, I'm writing a comic about a ranger-ish kind of character who wants to take down a giant monster that lives in a jungle. One of the plot is her realizing her regular hunting bow won't be strong enough to hurt the monster, so she tries using a heavy war bow owned by a really buff dude to shoot the monster from a tall tree, but fails in all sorts of awkward ways. This video helps me visualize the story, so thanks!
The question I got, is why this "really buff dude", who owns a war bow (is he a warrior?), doesn't want to shoot the monster himself and be a hero? Is he a coward? Injured? Something else? No need to answer me here, I just hope you have a logical explanation of this.
Depends on the mythology, some elves are weaker and some stronger. I found this from Tolkien, (about Legolas), someone quoted: "He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship" I love these demonstrations!
I'm glad you covered the idea of dropping down the poundage of bow as that's where my mind immediately went when you were looking at the difficulties of aiming downwards. It would make sense for an adventurer to have different bows if they were working for a guild, perhaps taking out different poundage dependant on the terrain they would be traversing.
The angled shooting is probably also why compound bows have become so popular in hunting. With a compound bows mechanism you can pull say 80 lb and hold that 40 or something (Don't know the real numbers since I don't own one, just used a friend's a couple times, but the letting off at full draw is dramatic)
The image of the crouching elf showed they had a short bow. Remember that medieval archers practiced for hours every day drawing, aiming and firing, developing their muscles for that kind of activity. That's another thing fantasy doesn't touch on.
I never imagined forrest elves needing high power bows on their home turf. Using hit and run tactics and the trees as cover whilst maintaining contact with the enemy means you choose your battles. You don't need to kill their heavily armoured knights, you can avoid those and kill everyone else, cut theor line of supply and do not offer actual battle.
My thing is it's not just gonna be bowmen. So the archers pick off the enemy archers or lightly armored footmen whole the elves with spears and stuff surround the knights.
@@mostafamohy8494 If the enemy is doing this then the harassment attacks have been highly successful in forcing them to massively extend their resources to protect their entire supply line.
@@zoro115-s6b yeah and if the enemy has enough money to equip caravan guards with all plate armor to get around that then the Elves are screwed anyways xD
@@jakemarsh8967 Yea kinda hard to plan a strategy around defeating a hypothetical enemy capable of fielding an infinite number of the costliest and most powerful weapons of the time.
Shad plays a game, "THAT'S NOT HOW YOU DRAW A BOW!" Shad watches a movie, "WHERE ARE THEY GETTING THIS? THAT'S A HORRIBLE BOW DRAW!" Then realizes he has a subject to tackle, "THIS is proper bowmanship!"
High poundage recurve is the way to go here. With the classical wood elf fantasy, they'd very much favor slightly lower poundage to standard warbows if they were to shoot from trees. Fits with the typically lithe builds you usually see.
yeah, plus it feels elvish to use thinner, pointier arrows to compensate, but still you need to be able to put some decent amount of energy into the arrow, not 30lbs
does solve only a small amount of issues tho - you basically get stuck on stuff less often, but you still need proper body position to draw it and cant cover wide angle
In Legolas' defense, he tends to hit his targets where they don't have armor. In the cases where the target is unarmored, just beefy, he tends to aim a little more, perhaps to hit a weak point. So maybe his less powerful bow is still useful?
Also, elves are either very light and average strength, or fairly strong and average weight. So they may be able to draw bows more efficiently because of that. Not to mention, they probably use magic materials to craft their arrows and bows allowing them to shoot farther or some shit.
@@albertocruzado2899 they are so much more powerful than normal humans, Legolas could literally run for like a day without rest. Just a peace of cake. Elves in LotR were so op they had to be nerfed.
I don't know Shad, I wouldn't wanna mess with a fantasy elf wielding a 30lb bow AT ALL. I don't care how heavy my armor is. They can fire 5 arrows to my 1 arrow from a 150lb bow with pin point accuracy, and all while hopping from branch to branch like a squirrel who became one with the Matrix.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he Elves usually have supernatural grace and agility, they'd be like elite ballerinas crossed with olympic level gymnasts, if they're not straight up dodging your arrows then they'd always be out of your firing line, moving around while shooting. Freaking knife-ears.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he 10% more really? Look at drizzt do'urden, he would be jumping backflips on the tree avoiding arrows, how i know that? He has already done it.
One of the bigger overlooked failures id the insistence on a "Kill shot" and the "Impermeability" of armor... Armor has gaps for mobility and opening to see and breathe... more complexity to try and cover required articulation and movement drives up the cost to far outside mere mortals... therefore well placed shots can incapacitate if not kill... someone who has very high accuracy can exploit those weaknesses to great effect... next is that you did not always have to kill with the one shot... An arrow to the face or in an articulation point is going to limit any accuracy or power with the afflicted limb if not completely nullify the ability to draw and fire or possibly wield a weapon, and you cannot aim or deflect what you cannot see... allowing for an opportunity to get in for the real "kill shots"...
@@JohnSmith-ty2he In D&D whatever you're shooting at very much might be capable of deflecting arrows with it's bare hands if not throwing them back at you in the process, so who cares really.
13:45 Shad, in D&D you would be a battlemaster fighter. It's basically a fighter who studied his fighting techniques. And there are techniques you can use with a bow
I was thinking simply dual-class fighter (main)/ranger. Would prolly fit Shads' "I want the benefits of Ranger without being just a Ranger" better. Bow-Fighter - while possible - doesn't quite seem to fit the type. Wouldn't you just be an (Master) Archer at point?
if you don't care about spells and favored terrain stuff you can just be a fighter with a bow. and if you want the favored enemy and favored terrain to be more rangery, but don't care about the druid wannabe stuff, then you can be a fighter with a single level in ranger.
Things I've learned: (DnD framing) -Firing from a tree counts as firing while mounted, composite longbows and shortbows only. -Firing from a crouch is fine but can limit your angles. -Like in real life, firing from awkward positions requires lighter poundage bows, reduce maximum strength bonus to damage. -When firing a bow, it looks like the lowest angle you can get at full power if -45 degrees, and probably a to hit penalty. Drop a point or two of damage bonus from strength, and you can almost do hollywood aiming. And a reminder from Lindybeige, Yggrite is the strongest person in the universe. But her bow really needs maintenance before it snaps.
You should get increased critical chance and increased crit damage since armor is not designed for the angles that they'd be hit by, and a successful hit would be even more devastating. Depending on if it is a person, you should get a better or worse chance of hitting them. Being above might also allow the shooter to be physically closer when firing the first shot. On the other hand the angle makes the person a slightly smaller target, so maybe it balances out.
@DaBomb8493 bow damage is dex in 5e but 3.5 and pathfinder use strength for all weapon damage bonuses. the minimization of strength's importance as a stat is actually one of my biggest problems with 5e, dex is just straight up better. dex gives damage for dex weapons, gives initiative, gives dodge bonus, and acrobatics is often counted to be able to do most anything an athletics check can (jump that chasm or climb that pipe? well obviously the rogue can use acrobatics to do that as he's a burglar and can thus somehow finesse and twirl his way past them even though those are athletic tasks). the only points in strength's favour is you can carry more, wear plate, and 2d6 weapons are strength only.
Ah, no. You can shoot down at full power if you are using a recurve cavalry bow or short bow in general. Tower defenders even had slits that allowed them to shoot at angles as low as 5-10% (assuming 0% is straight down). The string will propel the arrow just fine without worry on it falling and ruining the shot. Yes, you will NEVER get that shot with a longbow. Crouching also depends on your bow and how you use it. If you are comfortable firing from the inside accurately you can shoot from crouches and angles very well. However, this requires training to shoot the bow this way. Someone that shoots on the outside cannot simply shift the arrow to the inside and be as accurate, vice versa applies as well here. In regards to "damage" know what the difference is from a 75lb short war bow to a 110lb war longbow? Not a damn thing. Both will punch through armor just fine, and honestly the short bow will do it faster and more reliably. Longbows are slow to fire precisely because of how you have to draw them to get full power. The difference is the distance they are effective which D&D already takes into account with ranges. The ranges you will be pulling trick shots like shooting from a tree? The short bow is far more effective due to speed of fire, both bows are deadly in those ranges but the longbow is slower to fire repeatedly. Only thing I fully agree with on your list is that you should treat using a bow from a tree as mounted in regards to usable bows.
Lesson learned here: If you're an elf in a tree, set up your kill zones far enough away from your hiding spot that you don't throw your back out trying to aim down. Which seems like it'd be a bit awkward in thick forests...
I really appreciate this deep discussion of shooting a bow on a tree. It opens up discussion that what bow or what technique is optimal to shoot than what is ideally fantasies. Maybe a crossbow on top of tree can give better angle and accuracy due to mechanical advantage?
I would agree, with one caveat. A crossbow requires you to stand on the "Foot Hold" at the end of it to load it. That would probably be more difficult if you were up a tree. Unless it was a surprise attack and you were ok with either fighting normally after you jumped out of the tree or just ran away and hid.
Speaking of breaking immersion, I can't help but notice the modern shoes Shad is wearing. Totally ruins it for me... I'm totally joking! lol Just happened to notice right as he started talking about the lack of realism in movies. Love the channel and all your content Shad!
ehhhhh don't worry about that it isn't breaking immersion, they're a pioneering new shoe type in that universe designed mostly for comfort over durability.
Speaking of the lack of maneuverability from a tree. During WWII Japanese snipers tried shooting from trees. Basically they got one or two shots off before being lit up. Also you would have to shoot down if you were standing on a wall or on a hill.
German scouts often used fake trees as well which is funny, they'd put them way in the distance or awkward angles to look at and they'd sit inside hallow bits with rifles sometimes
@@Dramn_ This was done by both sides during WWI and they would often pick out a specific tree sitting somewwhere near their trenches, create a copy of it, then remove the real thing at night and replace it with the copy. As for the Japanse snipers, it was knoiwn to be essentially a suicide mission. The snipers would, more often than not, tie themselves to the treees to help support themselves. They would also fire off as many shots as they coud until they were killed, they generally didn't follow standard the standar sniper pracitce of only firing off a shot or two before before displacing and findind a new hiding spot.
warfare in ww2 is very different however, haveing the high ground is actually a negative in the age of machine guns, so reverse slope positions is infact the ideal replaceing it.
"The elf rangers of the Shad Realm were not really effective at ambushing from the trees. Who would have thought that painfully shouting when drawing your war bow and getting tangled in branches were not good strategies?"
Poison and a light recurve bow + 500 years of athletics training would be sufficiently deadly. The longbow in trees is like using a zweihander in a small alley.
Not really, it doesn’t matter how poisonous an arrow is if you can’t get through the armor also No matter how strong you are the arrow gets its power from the bows strength not yours The only point of you being strong is it so you Can actually draw a powerful Bow
@@whitefang6877 - I think it still works. We're not talking a 40-pound bow, like a 70-90-pound bow. You don't need the longbow's 8+ inches of penetration, you need an inch or two to introduce poison.
I'm curious about bows used in horse archery, being considerably more limited, how dangerous were they really? Thinking of the Mongolians and Japanese in particular.
different kinds of consctuction. different rules. the Mongolian bow is roughly as strong as a English warbow, its just higher maintaince in exchange for being smaller.
Based on Chinese-region officer exams, cavalry bows had about three-quarters the draw weight of infantry bows. So if strong archers drew 150-160lbs on foot, as seems to have been common, they'd use 112-120lb bows on horseback.
Mongolian bows were pretty uncommon in a lot of ways compared to medieval ones. Most notably, Mongols used much heavier arrows which limited the effective range some, but combined with the momentum of the horse gave them enough kinetic energy to supposedly puncture some thinner types of plate.
I hunt with a recurve cavalry Hun bow. I find it incredibly easy to climb any random tree that has a comfortable balance point on it for me to stand and use it. 55-75lb draws on my bows. I drop a deer just fine with them. I punctured some idiot's F350 hood and into his engine with them just fine too. Those bows are VERY deadly, you just have to get slightly closer. Emphasis on slightly. EFFECTIVE range (meaning actually hitting what you are aiming at, not arrow volleys) between a longbow and cavalry bows is not that different I found. Yes, the longbow has a longer effective range, but you end up shooting far slower than you would with the cavalry bow. So what if you can hit a target an extra 20 feet out in an actual kill zone when the cavalry bow is dropping 3-4 to your 1-2? That is punching through armor even, do remember their are arrowheads designed for that, and it would limit even the longbow's distance severely to use them without an arc so they can actually hit a specific target.
I don't know, I think most of this is based on the assumption that the archer would be using a warbow. Use of a lower weight bow would allow for a lot of these actions you're attempting, while not necessarily breaking the immersion for me. The ideal archers from historical fantasy aren't after the most powerful shots, and the fantasy is more about the mobility and the accuracy, for which a lower weight bow is just fine. For reference, sure, legolas uses a tiny bow, but he also doesn't aim to penetrate any thick hide or plate armour with it in the films. He's always aiming for the gaps in the armour, or the Oliphants eyes, or the nape of the cave troll's neck, which can be done with a lower weight bow without these concerns. Also, a counterpoint about being stuck in the one tree, elves are often depicted as running among the branches or different trees like squirrels do, so being stuck in one tree wouldn't be an issue for them in their densely forested homes.
I have to agree even in a non fantasy setting you had Mongolians shooting bows and killing people on horse back with small bows as well as Japanese archers using longer bows; accurately from horse back. So, shooting from a tree mmmh. Add fantasy stuff to it for all we know elves were so entuned with nature even the wood from their bows may make it easier for them to draw.
In LOTRs it is specifically stated that Legolas has a light bow initially- (he uses it first to shoot wolves outside of Moria that attack and later mentions shooting two Orcs in the throat in Moria) so neither is hit in armored parts. Later he gets a full sized War Bow in Lorien which he later uses at Amon Hen, Helm's Deep, Pelinor Fields and the Black Gate. (he also shot a Naz-gul's fell beast out of the sky while the company was going down the great river in boats)(while in the dark no less) So he uses a low poundage bow for early parts and a high poundage bow later on.
@@ajrey8457 Um...There are people that shoot bows with their feet. Even when riding a horse. Accurately. Then there's a myriad of bow types. Eventually Shad did reach the conclusion that effective shooting from a tree is very much doable though, so yeah. It's not like there's much to nitpick here since he DID reach the correct conclusion. That's research. What you first start with doesn't necessarily need to be correct, but experimenting reaches the end eventually.
23:07 I know what you mean, Shad. But, my inner pedantist is screaming "that's concealment, not cover!" In all seriousness, though, I really enjoy these types of experimental videos where you test out concepts. I especially enjoyed your Ranger one.
Great video! An intriguing point about shooting down from the trees is that the same problems should apply to shooting down the walls... And coincidently that's also precisely where MACHICOLATIONS come into play: to give defenders cover. But I gather that the bows would still need to have lesser poundage, and that's interesting.
I think it more likely that , in a castle, one would be using a stack of pre-loaded crossbows, which would present no such problems with depressed angles of fire.
As others have pointed out, it is a pretty widespread, misinformed trope that bows are seen as the nimble weapons that require little physical exercion to use compared to something like a sword. Viewers of this channel know that it's actually the opposite, but most people don't know that and continue to believe in that trope...
@Ross Outdoors Try saying that to people that say bow is already overpowered just because the luxury of range in every game and in real life combat scenarios like shooting from safety while others engage toe to toe dueling with swords plus i also quote ranged is easy mode, braindead, tapping one button. There are definitely people who think the opposite of what you said whether it is fiction or reality. Which makes the OP's statement still stand. Whether or not they believe in fireball spells and whether orcs are real or not.
The only worse trope is slicing shooting through gambeson chainmail brigandines and plate armor the third is charging in without ranks rather than fighting as a group and protecting yourself and each other in shield walls.
@Ross Outdoors Some things in fantasy can be believable if the person watching is ignorant about it, I have friends that are convinced to this day that bows can be easily drawn, that swords and armor are heavy and that Vikings were in the past exactly like they are portrayed by media nowadays.
I feel like this is a direct result of people misinterpreting Tolkien's elves. There are a large number of things that are just omited from later elven interpretations. Tolkein's elves are actually considerably physically stronger than men despite their litheness, so when Legolas draws a bow effortlessly I don't mind because by the lore who knows the draw strength of that bow. It could very well be much stronger than a standard human war bow. And it does make sense that elves wouldn't go for bows that they have to draw like a human would because of accuracy limitations at range, even with elven vision, and the fact that they would likely not need the all that poundage to be effective.
On shooting through brambles, it considered unethical for bow hunters to take shots when the target is obscured by branches. This is because the arrow can be easily deflected and can miss or wound the animal instead of killing it. Whether or not an adventurer would care about this I think would depend on how accurate they are trying to be.
Also depends on the circumstances. Against an unaware target or an animal you're hunting, you'll probably try for a better shot. Against a charging/retreating monster, in the heat of a fight, you're probably gonna take the shot while you have it.
Learned some interesting things on drawing heavy war bows. The most I've drawn was about 100 pounds, and that was a straight pull. I tried a 125 pound bow once, was able to get to my chin on a straight pull. Maybe I'll try your posture trick with my 80 pound Mongol style bow sometime and see how that works out.
Love how dedicated Shad is. Out of breath, out of strength but still trying to shoot. I can hear his suffocation but the man keeps ongoing. Love you man keep up the good work!
I'd like to argue that elves can shoot with low poundage bows while maintaining a high degree of lethality. Being that many depictions of elves in fantasy portray them to have inhuman accuracy, it's not beyond belief that they can possibly hit weak points such as eye sockets consistently.
@@ub3rfr3nzy94There are quite a lot of settings where they do give Elves a lot of advantages over humans, just not always to the same OP extent that they do in Lotr. In Warhammer for instance, the most powerful WoodElf archer units get an armour piercing effect to represent the fact that they can shoot so accurately at long range that they can perfectly hit the eye slits in a helmet.
@@zaleost but they main difference between a human and a elf in most fantasy settings isn't that elves are better naturally then humans as much as they have dozens of years of experience for every one year a human has normally.
13:45 multiclassing in mind, I think you could make a decent paladin/ranger, especially with your faith, and your commitment to truth. edited because original wording sounded rude in hindsight
Interesting fact: Christopher Paolini's elves use shortbows. Due to the fact that they're so strong, the literally have to magically enchant the wood they make their bows from not to break after a few shots. Dwarves also use shortbows and are extremely strong, but they use horn bows. Elves are just vegan.
So, the first thing we learned today is that there is a legit reason as to why we mostly see archers in trees shooting from smaller bows= to decrease the interference with branches
Imagine being a soldier, walking with his troops through the woods, and you just hear "GAAAAHHH!!!". Soldier: Take cover. There's an archer in the trees.
to be fair an elf/ranger would have had years or in the case of the former centuries of practice to be able to shoot from trees effectively and in a couple of those pictures they were holding the bow horizontally, also elves are forest dwellers meaning they don't need a bow that can shoot across a field
not to mention that magic tends to exist alongside elves, so it wouldn't be out of the question for elves or even rangers to incorporate magic-buffed arrows into the mix
@@dionjaywoollaston1349 That was my first though when the video started, horse archers face more or less the same issues as someone shooting from a tree, limited positioning and awkward body position for drawing, so one needs to look at the same solutions as historical horse archers arrived at. Mongols would be the most famous users I think.
Shad really needs to get a high weight recurve bow. I'd love to see the same experiments done with one just due to the form-factor difference. Though admittedly it wouldn't be practical in the many fantasy settings that are just re-skinned England for the same reason England went with the longbow in reality.
a properly-made ash bow is effectively a recurve cos of the material composition. But a shorter woods bow made the same way a longbow is would be the thing.
@Paul Gauthier you're not wrong that i framed it too much in the military setting by limiting it to the longbow specifically, but England as a whole, military and civilian, heavily favored self-bows that tend towards straighter profiles because of the effect of humidity and moisture in general on the glues of the era used in composite bows ( which most of the classic recurve bows tend to be, especially war bows). The English Longbow itself "cheats" by being a self-bow made on a natural boundary in the wood where a natural composite exists, but again that limits the profiles you can use to the straighter ones.
What impact does firing from a wall, particularly at targets against the base of the wall, or tower have on bows? Might be an interesting continuation of this concept.
i was pondering that myself. Shooting at a enemy while in a siege situation usually means the defender is at a higher elevation to the attacker, and can only shoot at a flat trajectory up until they get too close. When that happens it would be very much like shooting from a tree (minus all the branches in the way) as the bow would strain you if you try to angle your aim down. This could prove why so many European nations stated to adopt the crossbow despite its clear disadvantages over a bow (low reload speed, cost of manufacture, etc.), especially since its use in defensive situations like a siege can help waylay some of these disadvantages (they also shoot at a more flat trajectory opposed to bows in general i believe). But then again, can you aim a crossbow downwards without losing the bolt? Cause a archer holds the arrow and stops it from falling, but with most crossbows it just lays on the top and could slide off. So what is everyone's thoughts on this, would bows be able to angle down while crossbows don't? Or does the bow pose its own disadvantages that make it hard to aim downwards? Be aware i am considering a war-bow of around 100 pounds, not compact bows of 70 or lower pounds.
@@richardheykant718 great point. I don’t think they would be trying to shoot through the helmets though. Even though that seems like the only feasible option when shooting through machicolations. I sincerely would love an expert opinion on this. Maybe machicolations were never used with bows. Only rocks and crossbows. Also yes you can hold a crossbow bolt onto the bow with your thumb pretty much until straight down.
At that point of the siege you'd be dropping heavy objects down and letting gravity do the rest. though I'd be interested on the angle in which a bow stops being effective. Or maybe having a different stance for shooting down or even mounting the bow to the wall and Drawing with both hands?
@@richardheykant718 Regarding the crossbows, I always thought that the reason they got adapted is more or less the same why guns got adapted when bows still could shoot farther more accurate and waaaay higher rate of fire, the reason is you can train a person to be reasonably deadly with it far far far easier than you can train archer.
23:52 Yes, you can shoot through the smaller twigs of the trees and the arrow will most likely carry on the the direction you are aiming without loosing much power. However, even hitting a small twig can deflect an arrow just a little bit. I think we might actually see this in Shad's shot at 24:28. That little deflection can cause you to miss your target even at a close range like 10 meters.
I suspect there is a more ergonomically sound way to aim a warbow down because of depictions of archers on castle walls who also need to fire at people below them.
Feudal artwork also depicts a inordinate amount of left hand swordsmen as well. So are we to assume left handed people were the majority back than as well ?
@@clothar23 Well the difference there is that the left-handedness would be for artistic convenience: to show the front sides of two opponents. On the other hand, it's illogical to assume that artists simply made up the idea of bows being fired downwards from a battlement -- so clearly it must have been in some sort of practice.
@@jackccurbs And I entirely agree. I am just saying you always have to take artwork with a grain of salt when it comes to such matters. As you're not aiming a war bow a straight 90 degrees downwards while leaning over a parapet. The human body is simply not built that way. Slightly less harsh angles are certainly possible to be fair though.
That said, you wouldn't have to balance yourself while shooting from atop a wall verses in tree limbs, so you could probably keep your muscles engaged better
It’s ultimately about developing the proper muscle groups and repeated practice over time. Two things Shad clearly lacks and is using compensation techniques to overcome. And then arrogantly claiming the compensation techniques are used by all.
the main benefit of being in a tree is to see and maybe shoot at the target with greater range - if you miss they should not be able to return fire so easily, and then you can move or hide - but of course you would take an appropriate hunting bow too, not a war bow
@@goopy9498 - maybe, maybe not - if they do not know they are being hunted they may not be in full armour. If you are not hunting someone in full plate with the visor down, you could get a shot in. If they are riding a horse you could take the horse out. It all depends.
If you're in a tree, to actually have that greater range it needs to be a solitary tree. If it's in the forest, all you're going to see is branches and leaves, since there are all those other trees around you. So in a forest you'll actually have less range than if you were standing on the ground, because on the ground you don't have to aim downwards to avoid branches.
@@AnotherDuck also, if the target has bodyguards, you are a sitting duck if you miss as the shaft sticking out of the ground points straight back to you...
With the point of lowering poundage of the bow to draw it and aim down I’m curious what medieval castles would’ve used for siege defense at those downwards angles. I know crossbows and throwing rocks through machicolations were a thing so instead of lowering poundage wouldn’t an elf archer with a crossbow be better for firing from a tree? Could a crossbow be successfully reloaded from a tree?
Interesting to think about. A crossbow needs more muscle strength to reload, had one as a kid, nothing big but still with metal arms and a cable for the string. It was suprisingly hard to pull the string back, being only a toy. Imagine that instead of a toy you have one of these big hefty one that need a lever system or a foot loop. Migth work but is also slower and maybe more dangerous to you.
Reloading a crossbow with a goat's foot lever might be possible, definitely one with a creank but those are usually larger crossbows and ones iwth removeable cranks would be rather fiddly for use in trees. But the ones where you put your foot in a sitrrup and pull on the string by hand alone, that would probably be near impossble unless you had some sort of platrform to stand on while doing so.
Depends on the type of crossbow. In the holy roman empire, what is today Germany, mounted crossbow men were very popular. They used mainly those crossbows with metal gear mechanisms if I remember correctly. If you can shoot and reload those from the back of a horse, you can from a tree i guess
One of my relatives has a setup for easily drawing back a crossbow, albeit a more modern type of crossbow... From him I have learned many things, including the fact that if you have a foothold on the crossbow it makes it way easier, as you can pull it back with both hands, and also, if you have a crank or pulley type(or whatever types are available for ease of drawing) drawing mechanism, the drawing process can be made so much easier, with not too much more effort... Both these methods can slow you down, and technically, the crossbow in general could, when compared to the "small" fantastical elvish bows that people fantasize about... As it's as simple as nock, pull, aim, let go, as opposed to the extra step of pulling the trigger, and the cumbersome drawing process of a crossbow... However, all that said, I will say, that if you're not needing to machine gun arrows like Legolas does, and only want assassin-like strikes, then it might be better than a standard bow...
Nonsense! Battlemaster fighter but uses homebrew STR based Longbow and has his great sword ready. We already see him using maneuvers to command his "employees" ( okay guys! Wink three times if you need help, we'll get you away from the shad man)
Can I just point out how hard it is to draw a 100-lbs bow? Like we all watch this charming nerd present us with cool videos, but despite his deceptively harmless British appearance, this man is able to draw that bow and pop off shots. Most people watching this probably couldn't even draw it. I bought a 75-lbs bow and I was the only one in my family who could draw it. Shad here could probably squeeze your head off your shoulders if he was mad enough. Big props on the shoulders, bro. Never skip shoulder day.
I've tried this before, it is easier to do with a shortbow, also, during my experiments I found that if an arrow in flight touches any small branch it will affect the trajectory dramatically.
Same with bullets. Even heavy slugs will keyhole, that it turn sideways, after only a glancing hit of something. You’d be lucky to get a rough hit past 20 feet. Clean prepared shooting lanes are a must.
To hopefully answer Shad's class question, it sounds more like you'd just be a fighter :D You have tons of knowledge about weapons and combat, you like the bow but also see the uses of a big sword in melee, and you like the big boy armors knights wear. Also, as a fighter, you would still be able to have other skills and knowledge, like wilderness survival, without worrying about those skills being your "thing" I hoped this helps entertain that tangential question :D
Elves in Lord of the Rings are pretty magical Beings. They can even run on Snow without sinking in. You can assume, that they have some kind of enchantment to keep their grace while using bows.
They are noted for having greater strength than humans -- so it's possible that elven bows have a ridiculously high poundage for their size, and elves draw them with ease.
Potential Functional Fandoms episode; how functional are throwing knives? I know they aren’t your favorite but I don’t think you’ve made a video about them yet. Love ya, love what you do, stay safe
The trouble with throwing knives is gauging the spin. To get a stick you have to know how many spins in a set distance so the pointy side is facing the murder direction. This is easy with set targets, but a love moving target has a good chance of being hit by the handle and instead of injury you gave them a knife. A double head throwing axe seems more practical in the sense you have better odds of a stick because more sharp areas.
@@IntoxicusFreeman I definitely agree, and we need the message brought out a tad more for realism. So, Shad, there’s an Overrated or this series video potential;)
@@IntoxicusFreeman There are no spin techniques. When my mother taught me to throw knives she said she used a underhand no spin throw to hunt rabbits. Not practical but doable with enough practice.
I think most adventures wouldn't carry a war bow, an Archer would but if it's your side arm it would be a bunch of training they could spend on their magic or their swordsmanship, instead they would carry a smaller bow, crossbow, or even a sling if they only have enough room in their kit for a few rocks and some string. It's important everyone has a side-arm, dagger, a main weapon, and something to throw or shoot with unless that is the main weapon.
Good point re: main weapons, in war you can have a bunch of archers with only daggers or short swords and a bunch of mele infantry next to them, in hunting deer won't charge and stab you, but as an adventurer a bow might be better as a secondary weapon for hunting or to take potshots at an approaching enemy but relying on your sword or magic when they reach you.
and warbow tend to be long, in the video he showed to cut very closed bushed we saw that his warbow was in his way a lot and had to remove it, while a shorter bow like a recurve bow that the mongol where using on horseback would be perfect for adventure. not too long, won't be in your way when cutting bushes and perfect in close or small area like in a dungeon or cave. shad is just very biased toward warbow being so good at everything he forgot those small details that make a shorter recurve bow a lot more useful than a long warbow
If you’re talking time spent in training, a crossbow makes sense, but not a sling. Accuracy with a sling using enough power for damage against a human sized target is much more difficult than with a bow.
Ironic the name is Grey Goblin..cause Goblin Slayer is a good example of this. He normally uses any weapon a goblin drops after throwing his own when it starts to get dull but in his large hip pouch, the one behind his back, he always has a sling, pretty much EVERY member of his party bar High Elf Archer and I think Lizard Priest, have a sling, High Elf Archer..well..it's in the name..she uses a great bow strung with spider silk, BUT Goblin Slayer HAS been seen to use a smaller more compact bow..probably around 50 to 70 pounds or so I'd guess, for when he needs a little more range than a sling can give him, he leaves the super long range stuff to High Elf Archer who is trained for that while he himself is a warrior with some scout traits.
12:19 Now, if only there was a device that would allow you to hold the bow drawn with something other than back muscles... ** Enter Jörg and Instant Legolas. **
Please note I don't draw bow that heavy just give some thoughts. 0:10 I believe that you can easily learn how to thumb draw the bow at that stance maybe need right equipment to help you to draw war bows without thumb pain or injuries. Japanese bow called yumi, they can thumb draw at that stance so I assume it's not hard to do but a small space on a tree I don't think it's a good idea. I believe that the form of thumb draw has more advantage to pull to heavy bow because the forearm is not rotated clockwise and stay in a more natural form and how they pull a yumi also helps not injure shoulder but the disadvantage about thumb draw is obvious that all weight is on thumb so you definitely need a right equipment only made for you to pull heavy bow with thumb draw. 24:55 maybe rotate your draw hand forearm counterclockwise so your draw hand will be inside the bow like the arrow?
The only game that got bows right for me is Skyrim. The sound, the draw time, the bow arc, and the fact that it shakes if you keep it pulled is what made playing an archer so fun.
The bow shakes? :O I went in just now to check. Nothing happened, either on zoom or just normal draw. I have no archery-related mods. It is fun though. But I think the most realistic archery I've played (I don't own many games though) is theHunter Classic (basically a hunting simulator). The traditional bows are SO HARD. (And I'm in love with my crossbow.)
*"The trees! They're in the trees!"* ~that one Captain before being ambushed by incel Elvish women in the forests. (Don't mind me. I've been watching too many Baalbuddy comic dubs)
If you are looking for a game with more realistic bow drawing animations, I think the animation when shooting a bow in Solasta: Crown of the Magister looks pretty nice!
Spear throwers (atl atls) may be a good option for this ranger in the trees. The darts tend to be very long and flexible but if you had some shorter darts balanced for hard-throwing at short distance, that would be a very good option for this Ranger clambering around in the trees and throwing at all kinds of different angles.
Sure, same for fletchettes. But these in rocks are going to suffer ineffectiveness the further away from you and they rely on you being high enough that they can get enough momentum rather than you amplifying your throw with a lever. Also darts can be staged in strategic places and blend in very well with the environment, branches hidden among branches. A little planning just makes this Ranger all that more effective.
Oh, this was an important video for me to watch. Thank you so much for testing this stuff out. I loved this trope so much before and now I'll need to be really inventive to use it responsibly. The only situation I can see this trope working would be that if you were in a forest, you might not need the range of a typical war bow, simply because the branches and things would get in the way. It wouldn't work for the classic ready-for-anything ranger kit, but perhaps a local forest militia might be able to make use of lighter bows.
A lesson I've personally learned about Shad: Never feed him after second lunch. Ahaha All jokes aside, I love you, bro. I've learned so much, and I can't wait to see more!
One thing to consider, is that almost every setting that has elves as the tree-walking archer types, ALSO include the idea that they have special specialized bows. So perhaps they aren't really using a full on warbow, and instead are using something that winds up having a lesser draw-weight, while in some fashion maintaining it's lethality through some fantasy reasoning. After all, elven magic, elven craft, and archery being their main focus, they're gonna make their jobs as easy as they can.
Or have elves use horsebow. The design of string bridge allows for light easy early pull and max weight at full...however thumbdraw allows position to lock your hold behind the ears unlike the three fingers draw. That's why we could see some advance horsebow training is fast shooting. By holding three arrows on hand. You can't do it with longbow... difference of design restrictions.
Frankly I think it's a fallacy to even assume you need a 100+ lb draw warbow to be effective and it completely ruins this argument. Warbows were built for... war. You want a mass of archers to be able to reach out and touch the enemy at the longest distance possible with volleys to harass, slow, and inflict casualties as early as possible. The fact of the matter is that a 40lb draw weight is sufficient to kill a deer and 60-65 is sufficient for the much larger and tougher elk and moose. If you can kill a moose with 60lb, I guarantee you it will also kill a human. The 40lb more often then not will do the job. If you watch Todd's Workshop you will see that even at very close range an English warbow has a nearly impossible time punching plate. So if your opponent is in plate, the extra power does you little to no good. Against maile it will make more of a difference but I am quite confident that with the correct arrowhead, a 60-65lb draw bow will also punch most maile. Elves and adventurers in the movies are typically not using their bows on a battlefield where you are trying to engage from the maximum range possible with imprecise volley fire. They use them in rather close quarters and the absolute premium is shot placement, hitting vital weak spots and gaps. You don't need 100+ lbs for these ranges. Hence, this entire video is based on a bad premise... that an adventurer would want or need to be using a warbow.
One series of books where I saw a solution to the elves' archery was in the Eragon series. In it, the magic that circulates in the elf blood makes the race's muscles much stronger. It is constantly reminded in the series that even the weakest elf, like a sick and hungry for days, is still strong enough to beat the strongest human. There is even a passage where the main character, after being magically transformed into a kind of hybrid between human and elf, does a training section with a hunting bow he owned and mentioned that he barely felt the power of the bow, reaching the point of pulling the bow in excess and breaking the bow. Afterwards he gains an elven bow and in training he could target more than twice as far as before and still reach without a problem.
@@brenomatos8384 In the Eragon series of books it's more the Elven bond with Dragons that lends them their massive increase in strength and even some of their appearance rather than any innate ability of their own. Eragon doesn't become a hybrid. He was always going to become physically and magically powerful regardless. Because his status as a Rider would slowly give him the same bond with Dragons as the elves. All that happened was that the process was drastically sped up. So as a baseline Elves in that verse are no more physically superior to Humans or Dwarves. And as the Human Riders proved that sort of ability is achievable by simple virtue of being bonded to a dragon.
@@oddeyeus2365 Pretty much. This entire idea that "fighting fully armored opponents would invalidate the use of short bows" is extremely weak. The short bows are clearly used to fight light armored enemies or animals. If by chance they had to fend off a group of fully armored soldiers, they would just use other ways to dispose of them(sneak attacks, traps, poison) since those warriors would have to traverse a thick and narrow forest wearing heavy equipment. For the "beasts with thick hide", they would simply avoid confrontation or again, find ways to counter them other than shooting arrows, either that or get wiped out since they are such easy prey to those creatures.
I hunt with a traditional recurve bow and legally in Canada you can’t do that with less than a 40# bow. When hunting, 40# is recommended for deer or smaller and 50-60# or greater for things with thicker hide like moose, elk or bear. Ideally I try to have an upright posture with my 55# bow but sometimes because of terrain or brush I need to crouch or something. But I try to practice for that, just in case. So basically I think a 50-70# bow would work for an adventure in just about any situation.
As a recurve hunter who shoots a 60# bow I second this arrows can pernitrate a lot deeper at lower poundage's than people realize, TV and movies do a horrible job of showing this
I think target archery gives hunting archery a false sense of what is going on. My 55# recurve with carbon shafts and a heavy 2 blade razor sharp broadheads go through deer and antelope and elk. Unless I hit the shoulder, but I punch right through it and hit vitals. The kinetic formula is very important to how a projectile flys and how it hits.
You guys are right. There is a distinct difference between a hunting bow and a war bow. War bows were the machine guns of the time so their purpose was to lob heavy arrows, in mass quantities, at the enemy formation. Hunting bows were shorter and of lighter draw weight to aid in moving through the forest and to minimize movement when coming to full draw. Very effective in the right hands. Essentially it's all about using the proper tool for the right job.
Awesome and unique video, well done as always. As a fan of Lord of the Rings however, I can infer that in the case of Legolas, it is known by lore that elves possess superhuman strength, far above that of humans and even Dúnedain who are special humans blessed by the Valar. So I believe it is entirely passable for wood elves, who are also known as the greatest bowmen of Middle Earth to be able to fire bows of any draw weight fairly easily. We can also recall that the Rohirric man from Helm's Deep who was part of the first volley against the Uruks, actually tired too much and let loose his arrow before the order.
I agree. I've had a couple of D&D Fighters who specialize in bows. There's no reason you have to go with the Ranger and it's wilderness vibe. I'd say if you wanted to classify historical English longbowmen, they would absolutely be fighters, not rangers. They were professional soldiers who lived, worked, and trained in towns.
@@blardfip4540 actually longbowmen were useually yeomen, who were by definition rural freemen (as apposed to burghers who were the freemen from towns).
I suppose a preferred scenario for arboreal shooting is to have a squad of “snipers” to loose a volley into an approaching enemy force and then displace (ie climb down and run like hell) while the main ground based ambushers do their thing? I imagine during the surprise and confusion of the initial volley will give the ground pounders enough advantage to close the distance. Btw, I’d love to sit in on one of your DND campaigns! 🏰🐉🏰
Love this idea. The confusion and that the victims automatic reaction may be scanning the tree tops, while the real ambush flank them from both sides on the ground. Brilliant!
For elves, they wouldn't even need to climb down- they have already spent centuries carefully designing the tree branches into effective long-distance roads and covered hide-a-ways. And with their acrobatics can jump from branch to branch effortlessly.
This has made me realize that in all of those character portraits that people use, the characters are using hunting bows, and the artist immortalized a spur-of-the-moment shot at a rabbit that the character took advantage of without using proper technique. The portrait then became bragging rights in the local pub.
Adventurers/rogues using a warbow in the trees is like a special force commando using an anti-tank gun to kill a guard. Might happen at some point, but probably wouldn't be the first and preferred course of action for most of them.
War bows to my knowledge weren’t used for “adventuring” however long bows were and you can get them in many different draw weights. You can also get recurve bows that had serious power too and lighter draw weight too as well as smaller perfect for adventuring.
My recurve I had from 12 and up to my 20s was 65 lbs about 55 draw but that was accurate and deadly 65to 75 yards . Just had to pick spots in the tree that was more open. Often I’d use spots close to the trees trunk it allowed stepping around for cover and I could draw and lean out a bit for a shot.
Nice video. One thing to note, when you're talking about a fantasy setting, you could potentially be dealing with a bow that makes it easier to draw... and possibly hold as well (ie: a magic compound bow.)
your forgetting recurve bows, or a tenser woood/string being used thus require the same amount of power with less draw..also practice practice practice' and you could probably draw a war/long bow like a short bow
4:53 Legolas has super strength and uses a bow made of materials that don't exist. I don't think you can infer anything about the draw strength in the in-universe bow (though obviously you can infer things about the prop Orlando Bloom uses).
Im just done teading your novel... what a piece of uther...MAGNIFICENCE :) Read it in three days since I couldn't stop. Very good! I CAN'T wait to see the movie.
Near the end of the book Axion: Autorian's Archives Artorian does exactly this using a high poundage recurve bow. He's in a "haunted" forest where he goes to assail a small castle taken over by raiders because during one of their raids, they kidnapped some of his adopted grandchildren. It's in the middle of the night and he infuses a specific of elemental magic, the series calls it essence, to his eyes to make them glow making the med thinking he's a phantom.
Police Officer: Sir, would you please come down from the tree?
Shad: NO! You're just gonna yell at me.
Police Officer: Sir, you can't shoot arrows from the tree in the public park.
I like people with long brain. I have long amount of disl*kes btw. Why? Maybe people with short brain disl*ke because jealous of my long amount of subscr*bers. Please have long brain, dear ta
I don't remember hearing this version of Zacchaeus and the Sycamore tree in Sunday School...
@@caseydubois3645 very famous in Australia
@@AxxLAfriku like honestly dude grow some braincells
*Tadicuslegion78*
Shadlands! Privately owned by out host. search the channel, there 's a video about the topic.
In today's D&D session: Shad comes to terms with being a human fighter.
shad would be that guy: i want to wear my big sword on the back, warbow on the shoulder, 2 machetes and yes its fine!
As my friend always says: I disarm you, I shove you to the ground, I grapple you.
A jiu-jitsu orc
@@BAGELMENSK *this is why you cast fist*
@@aka-47k Bringing that big stick energy!
A Mongol-style short recurve, including with a thumb-ring, is ideal. Partly 'cos the draw stance and movement is different as it is designed to be done from horseback. And those bows can be in the same draw weight range as a longbow.
@Paul Gauthier and if we look at tribes who live and fight in the jungles, they use short bows, short swords, and short spears so they can move around much easily. They also put poison on their weapons so even if a jungle archer only shot you in the leg or arm, you're fucked.
You wouldn't be able to pull long bow draw weights from horseback regardless of the construction of the bow. You can't brace your feet
@@kuwanger12 have you heard of native American and the mongol they specialize in horseback archery.
@@alexanderhood8993 Horse bows average 90lb - 120 lb compared to warbow 135lb - 160lb.
It has to be said that being able to draw / aim / shoot from a horse is incredible and that the draw weight is probably less necessary when you can hit and run.
Not sure if the design of a bow changes how much one can draw as the mechanic should be similar.
So the horseback part is just a lot more skill involved but likely a lot less focused on the draw weight.
Heaviest Mongol warbow was 166lb, but I couldn't find out if that was used on horseback specifically or if it just happened to be a Mongol warbow.
@@kuwanger12The ability to brace your feet is why the Mongols invented the stirrup.
You make a good point about mobility. Around here most bow hunting is done with an elevated position be it in a tree or a structure. Many people (not me) even if they are using modern compound bows do pull a bow of 80 age to 100 lb. The difference is that deer, elk, and even bears don't shoot back. That's where I think elves and fantasy have the advantage. They can run along branches and do legolas acrobatics crap from tree to tree maintaining mobility in three dimensions while the enemy is restricted to two
I figure elves with their inhuman accuracy might also be able to get away with lower poundage bows by aiming for weak spots like eye holes or something.
@@andrewli6606 Makes sense, be it a human, a orc, a bear or even a dragon, all of them share some squishy parts, that could be exploited.
Yeah but you need to have the skills of a trapeze artist to do that so even in elves I think only the elite fighters could be allowed to have that ability and in areas with extremely dense forests. Trees fight for light so they don't put branches big enough to support your weight close to another trees branch of that size. You are talking about leaping 10-15 feet from one balance beam to another. The springyness will absorb the impact of the landing but it will also absorb much of the force of the initial jump.
Elves also often build nests/ hidden platforms for watchers, its not always a random tree,
@@evilcanofdrpepper if we are talking about the tolkien version of elves (modern) then yeah most of their soldiers would be able to
I really enjoyed this one, experimenting with ideas and exploring this sort of thing in practise is great to see!
yeah I mean this is just awesome
Whats the status on that mule
That has been quite enlightening! Thanks a lot, Shad! I'll put that knowlege to good use if I get around to sketching again or ever write a book. And if all that fails, at least I'll be able to use it as interresting facts to share in conversations. :)
i believe this would qualify as experimental archeology
Could you shoot a bow laying on your back?
Graceful Feminine Archer is actually kinda a funny trope when you consider their back and shoulder muscles are probably more defined than some melee fighters XD
BRICC BACC!
Degenerate or wholesome?
You decide!
Only if they have HUGE...tracts of land...to build those muscles, which would smack them across the chops every time they drew and released the thing...LOL...
It's interesting how this is also evident in history: indigenous cultures that developed in geographical areas characterized by thick forest, for example, tropical rainforests, tended to use shortbows with significantly lower poundage than European longbows and crossbows, and even central Asian composite recurve bows, for that matter. The thick vegetation would not only impede the drawing of longer, more powerful bows, but also drastically reduce the range at which combat, even ranged combat, would occur, thereby reducing the need for poundage of bows as powerful as longbows and crossbows. Add to this the fact that various tribes native to tropical rainforests also developed blowguns, javelins and darts to a significantly greater degree than they developed archery, and we could find sources to add more variety to what we arm fantasy forest elves and rangers with.
The availability of poison and armor also changes things a lot.
If you have lots of poisonous/venomous animals that you can use for hunt or war, a blow dart is all you need to deliver the poison.
Naturally, without plate armor, or even any iron, the necessity for heavy bows isn't there at all.
I have been working on a fantasy setting of "monstrous" races and the largest military threat were centaurs, whose heavy cavalry was the terror of the plains.
So naturally the harpies of this setting needed a weapon to fight a mobile, heavily armored enemy with long lances.
And my solution was a kind of harpoon. A heavy short spear with a needle-like, weighted tip to be dropped in what amounts to dive bombing runs.
Which would be very lethal on a hit, but also limit the amount of fighting they would do before flying back to one attack run.
pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficheiro:Caboclo_by_Jean-Baptiste_Debret_1834.jpg
I keep reminded of a demonstration in an Anthopology book where one of the last native tribe member showed his short bow before a white man stepped in to show power of civilization by using his long bow, which native explained how inefficient it would be in woodlands before being scoffed off.
Imo there is no real "ranged combat" with bows in jungle or really heavy woodland. Its all hand-to-hand, mostly skirmisches and raids.
@@TheZinmo The term ranged combat is used to refer to any kind of combat with projectile weapons. Even a thrown rock is an example of ranged combat. The term is used to distinguish it from melee or hand-to-hand combat, which includes both barehanded combat as well as armed combat using melee weapons.
"This bow is for kids or intermediates"
"Ah, so even kids can pull them?"
"No, I meant the target range"
If they run they are bad kids.
If they stand still they are clever enemy kids.
>Shad subconsciously rants and rages at media when portraying bows wrong
Welcome to the club, as a Firearms Instructor and competitive target shooter, movies and TV have been utter garbage ever since learning my skills and hobby.
One clip: I have infinite amounts of ammunition until the climax of the show and I'm empty
Suppressors: BOOM BOOM turn pew pew
As a pilot and sim-fighter pilot I have the same problem in movies and shows.
I don't know anything about firearms, but my #1 gripe in any movie where bullets are present, is when the bullet hits the target with SUCH FORCE he is THROWN BACKWARDS SEVERAL METERS. Instead of, you know, the bullet going clean through. Silly me.
ABSOLUTELY! All of it - skills, equipment and with languages: as a Russian speaker, the marvel movies, etc. are just HORRIBLE!! I completely get it if a non native actor/actress is reading the lines and it isn't perfect... but why not hire actual speakers for those background 5 second characters?
Use people who know and have already developed these skills (language,combat,etc.) needed to make quality and more believable productions.
Bows, firearms, swords, hand-to-hand combat, non-native languages, aircraft, etc..
Movies have people who don't know anything about the subject material, making media for an audience who doesn't know anything about the subject material.
Actually, addendum.. not only do they not know, they don't care.
That's why the majority of it ends up looking like for anyone who bothers to look.. and for the handful of filmmakers who bother to look for experts to ensure it looks right, the filmmaker's attention to detail is praised.
Shad, I'm writing a comic about a ranger-ish kind of character who wants to take down a giant monster that lives in a jungle. One of the plot is her realizing her regular hunting bow won't be strong enough to hurt the monster, so she tries using a heavy war bow owned by a really buff dude to shoot the monster from a tall tree, but fails in all sorts of awkward ways. This video helps me visualize the story, so thanks!
What are the odds
I'd love the climax to be about her outsmarting the situation
The question I got, is why this "really buff dude", who owns a war bow (is he a warrior?), doesn't want to shoot the monster himself and be a hero? Is he a coward? Injured? Something else? No need to answer me here, I just hope you have a logical explanation of this.
Love this kind of brainstorming.
Hunter dude who wants to hunt some beast in the jungle with a bow
Is it Markus Wulfhart?
I was half expecting a Wilhelm scream coming from wherever you shot at in the intro.
that would be linybeige
Such missed opportunity
Depends on the mythology, some elves are weaker and some stronger. I found this from Tolkien, (about Legolas), someone quoted: "He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship" I love these demonstrations!
I'm glad you covered the idea of dropping down the poundage of bow as that's where my mind immediately went when you were looking at the difficulties of aiming downwards. It would make sense for an adventurer to have different bows if they were working for a guild, perhaps taking out different poundage dependant on the terrain they would be traversing.
The angled shooting is probably also why compound bows have become so popular in hunting. With a compound bows mechanism you can pull say 80 lb and hold that 40 or something (Don't know the real numbers since I don't own one, just used a friend's a couple times, but the letting off at full draw is dramatic)
With compound bows the let off is usually 75-80% with my 65lb compound the let off weight was 15lbs
I have a 60# compound with a let off of 80%. Once fully drawn I just have to hold 12#. A lot easier to aim in different directions and hold that aim.
There are modern compounds with 90% letoff
There must be a way to shoot down with a war bow, because there was a lot of shooting down from a fortifications in the medieval period.
@@daveansell1970 yes but these were also on flat, stable walls with cover to protect the archer
The image of the crouching elf showed they had a short bow.
Remember that medieval archers practiced for hours every day drawing, aiming and firing, developing their muscles for that kind of activity. That's another thing fantasy doesn't touch on.
I never imagined forrest elves needing high power bows on their home turf. Using hit and run tactics and the trees as cover whilst maintaining contact with the enemy means you choose your battles. You don't need to kill their heavily armoured knights, you can avoid those and kill everyone else, cut theor line of supply and do not offer actual battle.
My thing is it's not just gonna be bowmen. So the archers pick off the enemy archers or lightly armored footmen whole the elves with spears and stuff surround the knights.
The enemy would notice this and then the armored knights will escort the supply wagons, or even they will give them better armor.
@@mostafamohy8494 If the enemy is doing this then the harassment attacks have been highly successful in forcing them to massively extend their resources to protect their entire supply line.
@@zoro115-s6b yeah and if the enemy has enough money to equip caravan guards with all plate armor to get around that then the Elves are screwed anyways xD
@@jakemarsh8967 Yea kinda hard to plan a strategy around defeating a hypothetical enemy capable of fielding an infinite number of the costliest and most powerful weapons of the time.
Shad plays a game, "THAT'S NOT HOW YOU DRAW A BOW!" Shad watches a movie, "WHERE ARE THEY GETTING THIS? THAT'S A HORRIBLE BOW DRAW!" Then realizes he has a subject to tackle, "THIS is proper bowmanship!"
Once again, Shad proving that he's the best person to do that. Every other enthusiast would just say "this is bullshit" and stop at that.
High poundage recurve is the way to go here. With the classical wood elf fantasy, they'd very much favor slightly lower poundage to standard warbows if they were to shoot from trees. Fits with the typically lithe builds you usually see.
👆🏾
Also, the images he showed in the first couple minutes were all recurve bows.
yeah, plus it feels elvish to use thinner, pointier arrows to compensate, but still you need to be able to put some decent amount of energy into the arrow, not 30lbs
Elves are lithe, but they are considerably strong.
does solve only a small amount of issues tho - you basically get stuck on stuff less often, but you still need proper body position to draw it and cant cover wide angle
In Legolas' defense, he tends to hit his targets where they don't have armor. In the cases where the target is unarmored, just beefy, he tends to aim a little more, perhaps to hit a weak point. So maybe his less powerful bow is still useful?
Also, elves are either very light and average strength, or fairly strong and average weight. So they may be able to draw bows more efficiently because of that. Not to mention, they probably use magic materials to craft their arrows and bows allowing them to shoot farther or some shit.
Meanwhile that Uruk that killed Boromir was using a war bow
Yes. It is establish that an elf is more or less on a peak human level. Great reflexes, athletic, etc.
@@albertocruzado2899 they are so much more powerful than normal humans, Legolas could literally run for like a day without rest. Just a peace of cake. Elves in LotR were so op they had to be nerfed.
@@xXAkirhaXx
Yeah, probably very well crafted bows, given they use them so often in many fantasy stores
I don't know Shad, I wouldn't wanna mess with a fantasy elf wielding a 30lb bow AT ALL. I don't care how heavy my armor is. They can fire 5 arrows to my 1 arrow from a 150lb bow with pin point accuracy, and all while hopping from branch to branch like a squirrel who became one with the Matrix.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he The one arrow will guaranteed miss and all 5 will hit weak spots.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he Elves usually have supernatural grace and agility, they'd be like elite ballerinas crossed with olympic level gymnasts, if they're not straight up dodging your arrows then they'd always be out of your firing line, moving around while shooting. Freaking knife-ears.
@@JohnSmith-ty2he 10% more really? Look at drizzt do'urden, he would be jumping backflips on the tree avoiding arrows, how i know that? He has already done it.
One of the bigger overlooked failures id the insistence on a "Kill shot" and the "Impermeability" of armor... Armor has gaps for mobility and opening to see and breathe... more complexity to try and cover required articulation and movement drives up the cost to far outside mere mortals... therefore well placed shots can incapacitate if not kill... someone who has very high accuracy can exploit those weaknesses to great effect... next is that you did not always have to kill with the one shot... An arrow to the face or in an articulation point is going to limit any accuracy or power with the afflicted limb if not completely nullify the ability to draw and fire or possibly wield a weapon, and you cannot aim or deflect what you cannot see... allowing for an opportunity to get in for the real "kill shots"...
@@JohnSmith-ty2he In D&D whatever you're shooting at very much might be capable of deflecting arrows with it's bare hands if not throwing them back at you in the process, so who cares really.
13:45 Shad, in D&D you would be a battlemaster fighter. It's basically a fighter who studied his fighting techniques. And there are techniques you can use with a bow
I was thinking simply dual-class fighter (main)/ranger. Would prolly fit Shads' "I want the benefits of Ranger without being just a Ranger" better. Bow-Fighter - while possible - doesn't quite seem to fit the type. Wouldn't you just be an (Master) Archer at point?
if you don't care about spells and favored terrain stuff you can just be a fighter with a bow. and if you want the favored enemy and favored terrain to be more rangery, but don't care about the druid wannabe stuff, then you can be a fighter with a single level in ranger.
Things I've learned: (DnD framing)
-Firing from a tree counts as firing while mounted, composite longbows and shortbows only.
-Firing from a crouch is fine but can limit your angles.
-Like in real life, firing from awkward positions requires lighter poundage bows, reduce maximum strength bonus to damage.
-When firing a bow, it looks like the lowest angle you can get at full power if -45 degrees, and probably a to hit penalty. Drop a point or two of damage bonus from strength, and you can almost do hollywood aiming.
And a reminder from Lindybeige, Yggrite is the strongest person in the universe. But her bow really needs maintenance before it snaps.
You should get increased critical chance and increased crit damage since armor is not designed for the angles that they'd be hit by, and a successful hit would be even more devastating.
Depending on if it is a person, you should get a better or worse chance of hitting them. Being above might also allow the shooter to be physically closer when firing the first shot. On the other hand the angle makes the person a slightly smaller target, so maybe it balances out.
I don't think you're supposed to fire a bow. It's not a firearm. You just shoot.
Otherwise seems legit.
@@pRahvi0
Fire arrow, not fire arrow. 😁
@DaBomb8493 bow damage is dex in 5e but 3.5 and pathfinder use strength for all weapon damage bonuses. the minimization of strength's importance as a stat is actually one of my biggest problems with 5e, dex is just straight up better. dex gives damage for dex weapons, gives initiative, gives dodge bonus, and acrobatics is often counted to be able to do most anything an athletics check can (jump that chasm or climb that pipe? well obviously the rogue can use acrobatics to do that as he's a burglar and can thus somehow finesse and twirl his way past them even though those are athletic tasks). the only points in strength's favour is you can carry more, wear plate, and 2d6 weapons are strength only.
Ah, no. You can shoot down at full power if you are using a recurve cavalry bow or short bow in general. Tower defenders even had slits that allowed them to shoot at angles as low as 5-10% (assuming 0% is straight down). The string will propel the arrow just fine without worry on it falling and ruining the shot.
Yes, you will NEVER get that shot with a longbow.
Crouching also depends on your bow and how you use it. If you are comfortable firing from the inside accurately you can shoot from crouches and angles very well. However, this requires training to shoot the bow this way. Someone that shoots on the outside cannot simply shift the arrow to the inside and be as accurate, vice versa applies as well here.
In regards to "damage" know what the difference is from a 75lb short war bow to a 110lb war longbow? Not a damn thing. Both will punch through armor just fine, and honestly the short bow will do it faster and more reliably. Longbows are slow to fire precisely because of how you have to draw them to get full power. The difference is the distance they are effective which D&D already takes into account with ranges. The ranges you will be pulling trick shots like shooting from a tree? The short bow is far more effective due to speed of fire, both bows are deadly in those ranges but the longbow is slower to fire repeatedly.
Only thing I fully agree with on your list is that you should treat using a bow from a tree as mounted in regards to usable bows.
Lesson learned here: If you're an elf in a tree, set up your kill zones far enough away from your hiding spot that you don't throw your back out trying to aim down. Which seems like it'd be a bit awkward in thick forests...
I really appreciate this deep discussion of shooting a bow on a tree. It opens up discussion that what bow or what technique is optimal to shoot than what is ideally fantasies.
Maybe a crossbow on top of tree can give better angle and accuracy due to mechanical advantage?
crossbows are awesome :)
Reloading crossbow on a tree would be impossible
@@raderith "let me show you its features"
How about a shortbow?
I would agree, with one caveat. A crossbow requires you to stand on the "Foot Hold" at the end of it to load it. That would probably be more difficult if you were up a tree. Unless it was a surprise attack and you were ok with either fighting normally after you jumped out of the tree or just ran away and hid.
Shad when taking his war bow stance: “I HAVE THE POWER!!!”
Your quandary on whether you'd be a knight or a ranger was interesting and hilarious! Though the obvious question is: why not multi-class?
fighter with decent dex the rest can be explained by base stats
Don't need to. Get knight, give bow.
@Paul Gauthier sounds like a great solution for you, so maybe leave the dnd enjoyers in peace
Speaking of breaking immersion, I can't help but notice the modern shoes Shad is wearing. Totally ruins it for me... I'm totally joking! lol Just happened to notice right as he started talking about the lack of realism in movies. Love the channel and all your content Shad!
I see it too, I got distracted for a moment lol
ehhhhh don't worry about that it isn't breaking immersion, they're a pioneering new shoe type in that universe designed mostly for comfort over durability.
The video medium of his content breaks my immersion. He should deliver me a scroll with a treatise on arboreal ranged combat by horse.
@@jamescollier9196 I know it's a joke about ImMeRsIoN, but that would be awesome actually.
@@jamescollier9196 Remember to tip your couriers people.
Speaking of the lack of maneuverability from a tree. During WWII Japanese snipers tried shooting from trees. Basically they got one or two shots off before being lit up. Also you would have to shoot down if you were standing on a wall or on a hill.
German scouts often used fake trees as well which is funny, they'd put them way in the distance or awkward angles to look at and they'd sit inside hallow bits with rifles sometimes
@@Dramn_ This was done by both sides during WWI and they would often pick out a specific tree sitting somewwhere near their trenches, create a copy of it, then remove the real thing at night and replace it with the copy.
As for the Japanse snipers, it was knoiwn to be essentially a suicide mission. The snipers would, more often than not, tie themselves to the treees to help support themselves. They would also fire off as many shots as they coud until they were killed, they generally didn't follow standard the standar sniper pracitce of only firing off a shot or two before before displacing and findind a new hiding spot.
I hire my bow standing from a tree all the time, what's wrong with your feet, fatties?
About Japanese ww2 snipers in trees, I can speak from personal experience when I say that those guys were annoying AF in CoD.
warfare in ww2 is very different however, haveing the high ground is actually a negative in the age of machine guns, so reverse slope positions is infact the ideal replaceing it.
That crouched outside draw moment just looked beautiful! Like it was straight from an artwork! At 25:45.
"The elf rangers of the Shad Realm were not really effective at ambushing from the trees. Who would have thought that painfully shouting when drawing your war bow and getting tangled in branches were not good strategies?"
Poison and a light recurve bow + 500 years of athletics training would be sufficiently deadly. The longbow in trees is like using a zweihander in a small alley.
true but pikes can work in that area but not in house fighting.
Not really, it doesn’t matter how poisonous an arrow is if you can’t get through the armor also No matter how strong you are the arrow gets its power from the bows strength not yours The only point of you being strong is it so you Can actually draw a powerful Bow
@@whitefang6877 - I think it still works. We're not talking a 40-pound bow, like a 70-90-pound bow. You don't need the longbow's 8+ inches of penetration, you need an inch or two to introduce poison.
What kind of bows did the Mongols use?
@@IntoxicusFreeman recurve compound bows
I'm so happy that he wasn't really on a huge tree, I feel like that could have gone bad fast not to mention the climb GG shad
I'm curious about bows used in horse archery, being considerably more limited, how dangerous were they really? Thinking of the Mongolians and Japanese in particular.
different kinds of consctuction. different rules. the Mongolian bow is roughly as strong as a English warbow, its just higher maintaince in exchange for being smaller.
Based on Chinese-region officer exams, cavalry bows had about three-quarters the draw weight of infantry bows. So if strong archers drew 150-160lbs on foot, as seems to have been common, they'd use 112-120lb bows on horseback.
They were more commonly used as harassment, forcing the enemy to move defensively, maybe kill a few dozen or so.
Mongolian bows were pretty uncommon in a lot of ways compared to medieval ones. Most notably, Mongols used much heavier arrows which limited the effective range some, but combined with the momentum of the horse gave them enough kinetic energy to supposedly puncture some thinner types of plate.
I hunt with a recurve cavalry Hun bow. I find it incredibly easy to climb any random tree that has a comfortable balance point on it for me to stand and use it. 55-75lb draws on my bows. I drop a deer just fine with them. I punctured some idiot's F350 hood and into his engine with them just fine too.
Those bows are VERY deadly, you just have to get slightly closer. Emphasis on slightly. EFFECTIVE range (meaning actually hitting what you are aiming at, not arrow volleys) between a longbow and cavalry bows is not that different I found. Yes, the longbow has a longer effective range, but you end up shooting far slower than you would with the cavalry bow. So what if you can hit a target an extra 20 feet out in an actual kill zone when the cavalry bow is dropping 3-4 to your 1-2? That is punching through armor even, do remember their are arrowheads designed for that, and it would limit even the longbow's distance severely to use them without an arc so they can actually hit a specific target.
I've always imagined that in these fantasies settings where people are shooting from tree that they using composite, recurve, or short bows
Recurve, all the power in a smaller bow. Takes more maintenance though.
I don't know, I think most of this is based on the assumption that the archer would be using a warbow. Use of a lower weight bow would allow for a lot of these actions you're attempting, while not necessarily breaking the immersion for me.
The ideal archers from historical fantasy aren't after the most powerful shots, and the fantasy is more about the mobility and the accuracy, for which a lower weight bow is just fine.
For reference, sure, legolas uses a tiny bow, but he also doesn't aim to penetrate any thick hide or plate armour with it in the films. He's always aiming for the gaps in the armour, or the Oliphants eyes, or the nape of the cave troll's neck, which can be done with a lower weight bow without these concerns.
Also, a counterpoint about being stuck in the one tree, elves are often depicted as running among the branches or different trees like squirrels do, so being stuck in one tree wouldn't be an issue for them in their densely forested homes.
That's his point. Want to use a useful-poundage bow, be constrained in trees
I have to agree even in a non fantasy setting you had Mongolians shooting bows and killing people on horse back with small bows as well as Japanese archers using longer bows; accurately from horse back. So, shooting from a tree mmmh. Add fantasy stuff to it for all we know elves were so entuned with nature even the wood from their bows may make it easier for them to draw.
In LOTRs it is specifically stated that Legolas has a light bow initially- (he uses it first to shoot wolves outside of Moria that attack and later mentions shooting two Orcs in the throat in Moria) so neither is hit in armored parts. Later he gets a full sized War Bow in Lorien which he later uses at Amon Hen, Helm's Deep, Pelinor Fields and the Black Gate.
(he also shot a Naz-gul's fell beast out of the sky while the company was going down the great river in boats)(while in the dark no less)
So he uses a low poundage bow for early parts and a high poundage bow later on.
@@ajrey8457 Um...There are people that shoot bows with their feet. Even when riding a horse. Accurately. Then there's a myriad of bow types.
Eventually Shad did reach the conclusion that effective shooting from a tree is very much doable though, so yeah. It's not like there's much to nitpick here since he DID reach the correct conclusion. That's research. What you first start with doesn't necessarily need to be correct, but experimenting reaches the end eventually.
@@kikixchannel been a while since i posted but i do believe i reacted quickly in the vid.
I was going to say "shad you need a shorter bow." Then you pulled one out and I was like well darn what a coincidence.
23:07 I know what you mean, Shad. But, my inner pedantist is screaming "that's concealment, not cover!"
In all seriousness, though, I really enjoy these types of experimental videos where you test out concepts. I especially enjoyed your Ranger one.
This comment reminds me in of a video from the US srmy. Concealment is not cover. Or something similar.
@@1IGG, yeah. I just can't help myself sometimes.
Great video!
An intriguing point about shooting down from the trees is that the same problems should apply to shooting down the walls... And coincidently that's also precisely where MACHICOLATIONS come into play: to give defenders cover. But I gather that the bows would still need to have lesser poundage, and that's interesting.
I think it more likely that , in a castle, one would be using a stack of pre-loaded crossbows, which would present no such problems with depressed angles of fire.
As others have pointed out, it is a pretty widespread, misinformed trope that bows are seen as the nimble weapons that require little physical exercion to use compared to something like a sword. Viewers of this channel know that it's actually the opposite, but most people don't know that and continue to believe in that trope...
Virgin knight vs Chad longbowman
@Ross Outdoors Try saying that to people that say bow is already overpowered just because the luxury of range in every game and in real life combat scenarios like shooting from safety while others engage toe to toe dueling with swords plus i also quote ranged is easy mode, braindead, tapping one button. There are definitely people who think the opposite of what you said whether it is fiction or reality. Which makes the OP's statement still stand. Whether or not they believe in fireball spells and whether orcs are real or not.
The only worse trope is slicing shooting through gambeson chainmail brigandines and plate armor
the third is charging in without ranks rather than fighting as a group and protecting yourself and each other in shield walls.
@Ross Outdoors Some things in fantasy can be believable if the person watching is ignorant about it, I have friends that are convinced to this day that bows can be easily drawn, that swords and armor are heavy and that Vikings were in the past exactly like they are portrayed by media nowadays.
I feel like this is a direct result of people misinterpreting Tolkien's elves. There are a large number of things that are just omited from later elven interpretations. Tolkein's elves are actually considerably physically stronger than men despite their litheness, so when Legolas draws a bow effortlessly I don't mind because by the lore who knows the draw strength of that bow. It could very well be much stronger than a standard human war bow. And it does make sense that elves wouldn't go for bows that they have to draw like a human would because of accuracy limitations at range, even with elven vision, and the fact that they would likely not need the all that poundage to be effective.
On shooting through brambles, it considered unethical for bow hunters to take shots when the target is obscured by branches. This is because the arrow can be easily deflected and can miss or wound the animal instead of killing it. Whether or not an adventurer would care about this I think would depend on how accurate they are trying to be.
Also depends on the circumstances. Against an unaware target or an animal you're hunting, you'll probably try for a better shot. Against a charging/retreating monster, in the heat of a fight, you're probably gonna take the shot while you have it.
Another advantage of not shooting into a bush is that it might not be an animal. :p
@@ViolosD2I A large portion of adventurers' targets are not animals.
@@Samagryn An arrow doesn't fly straight, there is quite a lot of movement in their flight it is really easy for the arrow to be deflected
Laughs in Artillery
Learned some interesting things on drawing heavy war bows. The most I've drawn was about 100 pounds, and that was a straight pull. I tried a 125 pound bow once, was able to get to my chin on a straight pull. Maybe I'll try your posture trick with my 80 pound Mongol style bow sometime and see how that works out.
Love how dedicated Shad is. Out of breath, out of strength but still trying to shoot. I can hear his suffocation but the man keeps ongoing. Love you man keep up the good work!
I'd like to argue that elves can shoot with low poundage bows while maintaining a high degree of lethality. Being that many depictions of elves in fantasy portray them to have inhuman accuracy, it's not beyond belief that they can possibly hit weak points such as eye sockets consistently.
Most depictions of elves in fantasy, they're just pointy eared humans. It's really just lotr where they are demigod level.
@@ub3rfr3nzy94 No? Unless you are talking about manga or anime...
@@ub3rfr3nzy94There are quite a lot of settings where they do give Elves a lot of advantages over humans, just not always to the same OP extent that they do in Lotr. In Warhammer for instance, the most powerful WoodElf archer units get an armour piercing effect to represent the fact that they can shoot so accurately at long range that they can perfectly hit the eye slits in a helmet.
@@zaleost but they main difference between a human and a elf in most fantasy settings isn't that elves are better naturally then humans as much as they have dozens of years of experience for every one year a human has normally.
@@ub3rfr3nzy94 MOST depictions of elves in fantasy are cute little forest children that play tricks.
13:45 multiclassing in mind, I think you could make a decent paladin/ranger, especially with your faith, and your commitment to truth.
edited because original wording sounded rude in hindsight
YES
Paladin-ranger is one of the hallmark meta builds of Pathfinder, one of the two most widely played tabletops in the world. Youre in a good spot.
Oh wow, I didn’t think about that. A Paladin ranger makes a lot of sense.
D&D4 has the Seeker, a divine-powered archer. Or, play a game that's not classed like D&D is, like Shad's own system.
Elf draws a bow
shad: imma examine this mans whole career
Interesting fact: Christopher Paolini's elves use shortbows. Due to the fact that they're so strong, the literally have to magically enchant the wood they make their bows from not to break after a few shots.
Dwarves also use shortbows and are extremely strong, but they use horn bows. Elves are just vegan.
a fellow paolini scholar
@@tomosheax ah, I see you, too, are a man of culture.
Paolini's books were the goat! It's a shame they never got a proper film adaptation.
@@someone-pz4dg have you read To Sleep in a Sea of Stars? It's, in my opinion, his best work yet.
I always found “vegan elves” to be such a silly concept. Why would a culture place such emphasis on the bow if not because they hunters?
So, the first thing we learned today is that there is a legit reason as to why we mostly see archers in trees shooting from smaller bows= to decrease the interference with branches
Imagine being a soldier, walking with his troops through the woods, and you just hear "GAAAAHHH!!!".
Soldier: Take cover. There's an archer in the trees.
to be fair an elf/ranger would have had years or in the case of the former centuries of practice to be able to shoot from trees effectively and in a couple of those pictures they were holding the bow horizontally, also elves are forest dwellers meaning they don't need a bow that can shoot across a field
not to mention that magic tends to exist alongside elves, so it wouldn't be out of the question for elves or even rangers to incorporate magic-buffed arrows into the mix
Centuries in the case of the þindar.
@@DavidisEepy indeed, plus in the legolas picture the bow he was using resembled a mongolian bow which was primarily used from horseback
And the elves of middle earth are stronger then human, therefore it would be easyer to draw a bow for them.
@@dionjaywoollaston1349 That was my first though when the video started, horse archers face more or less the same issues as someone shooting from a tree, limited positioning and awkward body position for drawing, so one needs to look at the same solutions as historical horse archers arrived at. Mongols would be the most famous users I think.
Shad really needs to get a high weight recurve bow. I'd love to see the same experiments done with one just due to the form-factor difference.
Though admittedly it wouldn't be practical in the many fantasy settings that are just re-skinned England for the same reason England went with the longbow in reality.
a properly-made ash bow is effectively a recurve cos of the material composition. But a shorter woods bow made the same way a longbow is would be the thing.
@Paul Gauthier you're not wrong that i framed it too much in the military setting by limiting it to the longbow specifically, but England as a whole, military and civilian, heavily favored self-bows that tend towards straighter profiles because of the effect of humidity and moisture in general on the glues of the era used in composite bows ( which most of the classic recurve bows tend to be, especially war bows). The English Longbow itself "cheats" by being a self-bow made on a natural boundary in the wood where a natural composite exists, but again that limits the profiles you can use to the straighter ones.
What impact does firing from a wall, particularly at targets against the base of the wall, or tower have on bows? Might be an interesting continuation of this concept.
i was pondering that myself. Shooting at a enemy while in a siege situation usually means the defender is at a higher elevation to the attacker, and can only shoot at a flat trajectory up until they get too close. When that happens it would be very much like shooting from a tree (minus all the branches in the way) as the bow would strain you if you try to angle your aim down. This could prove why so many European nations stated to adopt the crossbow despite its clear disadvantages over a bow (low reload speed, cost of manufacture, etc.), especially since its use in defensive situations like a siege can help waylay some of these disadvantages (they also shoot at a more flat trajectory opposed to bows in general i believe). But then again, can you aim a crossbow downwards without losing the bolt? Cause a archer holds the arrow and stops it from falling, but with most crossbows it just lays on the top and could slide off.
So what is everyone's thoughts on this, would bows be able to angle down while crossbows don't? Or does the bow pose its own disadvantages that make it hard to aim downwards? Be aware i am considering a war-bow of around 100 pounds, not compact bows of 70 or lower pounds.
@@richardheykant718 great point. I don’t think they would be trying to shoot through the helmets though. Even though that seems like the only feasible option when shooting through machicolations. I sincerely would love an expert opinion on this. Maybe machicolations were never used with bows. Only rocks and crossbows. Also yes you can hold a crossbow bolt onto the bow with your thumb pretty much until straight down.
At that point of the siege you'd be dropping heavy objects down and letting gravity do the rest. though I'd be interested on the angle in which a bow stops being effective. Or maybe having a different stance for shooting down or even mounting the bow to the wall and Drawing with both hands?
Targets at the base of the wall? Why that's quite simple.
MACHICULATIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONS!
@@richardheykant718 Regarding the crossbows, I always thought that the reason they got adapted is more or less the same why guns got adapted when bows still could shoot farther more accurate and waaaay higher rate of fire, the reason is you can train a person to be reasonably deadly with it far far far easier than you can train archer.
“The war bow is a different beast. [Crikey. What a beauty.] “ Strong Irwin vibes here.
"Different beast" is a figure of speech, just in case you didn't know.
Imagine the enemy is alerted to your position because you grunt loudly every time you draw the bow
Enemies carefully walking through the forest:
Shad: "OOOOOOOGH!"
I just pictured that in my head. Hahahah.
"Must've been the wind."
A better question is why would you want to imitate an elf?
-every dwarf ever
23:52 Yes, you can shoot through the smaller twigs of the trees and the arrow will most likely carry on the the direction you are aiming without loosing much power. However, even hitting a small twig can deflect an arrow just a little bit. I think we might actually see this in Shad's shot at 24:28. That little deflection can cause you to miss your target even at a close range like 10 meters.
I suspect there is a more ergonomically sound way to aim a warbow down because of depictions of archers on castle walls who also need to fire at people below them.
Feudal artwork also depicts a inordinate amount of left hand swordsmen as well. So are we to assume left handed people were the majority back than as well ?
@@clothar23 Well the difference there is that the left-handedness would be for artistic convenience: to show the front sides of two opponents. On the other hand, it's illogical to assume that artists simply made up the idea of bows being fired downwards from a battlement -- so clearly it must have been in some sort of practice.
@@jackccurbs And I entirely agree. I am just saying you always have to take artwork with a grain of salt when it comes to such matters.
As you're not aiming a war bow a straight 90 degrees downwards while leaning over a parapet. The human body is simply not built that way.
Slightly less harsh angles are certainly possible to be fair though.
That said, you wouldn't have to balance yourself while shooting from atop a wall verses in tree limbs, so you could probably keep your muscles engaged better
It’s ultimately about developing the proper muscle groups and repeated practice over time. Two things Shad clearly lacks and is using compensation techniques to overcome. And then arrogantly claiming the compensation techniques are used by all.
ok shad, that was a solid, classic comedic intro, 7/10
Shad, you’re a fighter. There’s literally no doubt…
the main benefit of being in a tree is to see and maybe shoot at the target with greater range - if you miss they should not be able to return fire so easily, and then you can move or hide - but of course you would take an appropriate hunting bow too, not a war bow
I think the thing is if you're trying to kill/assassinate people with armor hunting bows wont cut it
No matter how high poundage war bow is, assassin wouldn't shoot the armored part, that's never gonna be a sure kill
@@goopy9498 - maybe, maybe not - if they do not know they are being hunted they may not be in full armour. If you are not hunting someone in full plate with the visor down, you could get a shot in. If they are riding a horse you could take the horse out. It all depends.
If you're in a tree, to actually have that greater range it needs to be a solitary tree. If it's in the forest, all you're going to see is branches and leaves, since there are all those other trees around you. So in a forest you'll actually have less range than if you were standing on the ground, because on the ground you don't have to aim downwards to avoid branches.
@@AnotherDuck also, if the target has bodyguards, you are a sitting duck if you miss as the shaft sticking out of the ground points straight back to you...
With the point of lowering poundage of the bow to draw it and aim down I’m curious what medieval castles would’ve used for siege defense at those downwards angles. I know crossbows and throwing rocks through machicolations were a thing so instead of lowering poundage wouldn’t an elf archer with a crossbow be better for firing from a tree? Could a crossbow be successfully reloaded from a tree?
Interesting to think about.
A crossbow needs more muscle strength to reload, had one as a kid, nothing big but still with metal arms and a cable for the string.
It was suprisingly hard to pull the string back, being only a toy.
Imagine that instead of a toy you have one of these big hefty one that need a lever system or a foot loop.
Migth work but is also slower and maybe more dangerous to you.
Reloading a crossbow with a goat's foot lever might be possible, definitely one with a creank but those are usually larger crossbows and ones iwth removeable cranks would be rather fiddly for use in trees. But the ones where you put your foot in a sitrrup and pull on the string by hand alone, that would probably be near impossble unless you had some sort of platrform to stand on while doing so.
@@Riceball01 Thank you, I did not remember what they where called.
Depends on the type of crossbow. In the holy roman empire, what is today Germany, mounted crossbow men were very popular. They used mainly those crossbows with metal gear mechanisms if I remember correctly.
If you can shoot and reload those from the back of a horse, you can from a tree i guess
One of my relatives has a setup for easily drawing back a crossbow, albeit a more modern type of crossbow... From him I have learned many things, including the fact that if you have a foothold on the crossbow it makes it way easier, as you can pull it back with both hands, and also, if you have a crank or pulley type(or whatever types are available for ease of drawing) drawing mechanism, the drawing process can be made so much easier, with not too much more effort... Both these methods can slow you down, and technically, the crossbow in general could, when compared to the "small" fantastical elvish bows that people fantasize about... As it's as simple as nock, pull, aim, let go, as opposed to the extra step of pulling the trigger, and the cumbersome drawing process of a crossbow... However, all that said, I will say, that if you're not needing to machine gun arrows like Legolas does, and only want assassin-like strikes, then it might be better than a standard bow...
This is so educational. Every DND DM should be required to watch your videos!
I’m so proud that I essentially got Rick Rolled in the first 10 seconds of the video
Gotta be honest, I would've thought that Shad would be more of a Battle Master Fighter but I guess he's multiclassing now.
Battle master fighters are one of the best archers in all of 5e
Nonsense! Battlemaster fighter but uses homebrew STR based Longbow and has his great sword ready. We already see him using maneuvers to command his "employees" ( okay guys! Wink three times if you need help, we'll get you away from the shad man)
Can I just point out how hard it is to draw a 100-lbs bow? Like we all watch this charming nerd present us with cool videos, but despite his deceptively harmless British appearance, this man is able to draw that bow and pop off shots. Most people watching this probably couldn't even draw it. I bought a 75-lbs bow and I was the only one in my family who could draw it. Shad here could probably squeeze your head off your shoulders if he was mad enough.
Big props on the shoulders, bro. Never skip shoulder day.
Apparently he's Australian? Which makes more sense now. Charming like Brits, tough like Canadians.
makes me appreciate Mount & Blade's bows becoming less accurate the longer you pull it back
Mount and Blade tries to keep realistic while also being fun to someone who dont appreciete realism in games
@@TerribleScroll Realism is always fun to a certain degree. Most people play games to escape real life
@@carsonaswell2809 yes but some people prefer games with either none or the bare minimum realism
I've tried this before, it is easier to do with a shortbow, also, during my experiments I found that if an arrow in flight touches any small branch it will affect the trajectory dramatically.
Same with bullets. Even heavy slugs will keyhole, that it turn sideways, after only a glancing hit of something. You’d be lucky to get a rough hit past 20 feet.
Clean prepared shooting lanes are a must.
To hopefully answer Shad's class question, it sounds more like you'd just be a fighter :D You have tons of knowledge about weapons and combat, you like the bow but also see the uses of a big sword in melee, and you like the big boy armors knights wear. Also, as a fighter, you would still be able to have other skills and knowledge, like wilderness survival, without worrying about those skills being your "thing"
I hoped this helps entertain that tangential question :D
Elves in Lord of the Rings are pretty magical Beings. They can even run on Snow without sinking in. You can assume, that they have some kind of enchantment to keep their grace while using bows.
They are noted for having greater strength than humans -- so it's possible that elven bows have a ridiculously high poundage for their size, and elves draw them with ease.
Wait are you implying Shad does not have some kind of australian enchantment to keep his grace while using bows?
Potential Functional Fandoms episode; how functional are throwing knives? I know they aren’t your favorite but I don’t think you’ve made a video about them yet. Love ya, love what you do, stay safe
The trouble with throwing knives is gauging the spin.
To get a stick you have to know how many spins in a set distance so the pointy side is facing the murder direction.
This is easy with set targets, but a love moving target has a good chance of being hit by the handle and instead of injury you gave them a knife.
A double head throwing axe seems more practical in the sense you have better odds of a stick because more sharp areas.
@@IntoxicusFreeman I definitely agree, and we need the message brought out a tad more for realism. So, Shad, there’s an Overrated or this series video potential;)
@@IntoxicusFreeman There are no spin techniques. When my mother taught me to throw knives she said she used a underhand no spin throw to hunt rabbits. Not practical but doable with enough practice.
Throwing daggers are just shurikens with fewer pointy bits, and a bit heavier. It is only good against unarmored opponents.
@@Elkator955 Just use vorpal daggers :D
Fascinating. I love the combination of realism and fantasy in this video. Well done as always, Shad!
I think most adventures wouldn't carry a war bow, an Archer would but if it's your side arm it would be a bunch of training they could spend on their magic or their swordsmanship, instead they would carry a smaller bow, crossbow, or even a sling if they only have enough room in their kit for a few rocks and some string. It's important everyone has a side-arm, dagger, a main weapon, and something to throw or shoot with unless that is the main weapon.
Average bow 60-80 lbs?
Good point re: main weapons, in war you can have a bunch of archers with only daggers or short swords and a bunch of mele infantry next to them, in hunting deer won't charge and stab you, but as an adventurer a bow might be better as a secondary weapon for hunting or to take potshots at an approaching enemy but relying on your sword or magic when they reach you.
and warbow tend to be long, in the video he showed to cut very closed bushed we saw that his warbow was in his way a lot and had to remove it, while a shorter bow like a recurve bow that the mongol where using on horseback would be perfect for adventure. not too long, won't be in your way when cutting bushes and perfect in close or small area like in a dungeon or cave. shad is just very biased toward warbow being so good at everything he forgot those small details that make a shorter recurve bow a lot more useful than a long warbow
If you’re talking time spent in training, a crossbow makes sense, but not a sling. Accuracy with a sling using enough power for damage against a human sized target is much more difficult than with a bow.
Ironic the name is Grey Goblin..cause Goblin Slayer is a good example of this. He normally uses any weapon a goblin drops after throwing his own when it starts to get dull but in his large hip pouch, the one behind his back, he always has a sling, pretty much EVERY member of his party bar High Elf Archer and I think Lizard Priest, have a sling, High Elf Archer..well..it's in the name..she uses a great bow strung with spider silk, BUT Goblin Slayer HAS been seen to use a smaller more compact bow..probably around 50 to 70 pounds or so I'd guess, for when he needs a little more range than a sling can give him, he leaves the super long range stuff to High Elf Archer who is trained for that while he himself is a warrior with some scout traits.
12:19 Now, if only there was a device that would allow you to hold the bow drawn with something other than back muscles...
** Enter Jörg and Instant Legolas. **
Please note I don't draw bow that heavy just give some thoughts.
0:10 I believe that you can easily learn how to thumb draw the bow at that stance maybe need right equipment to help you to draw war bows without thumb pain or injuries. Japanese bow called yumi, they can thumb draw at that stance so I assume it's not hard to do but a small space on a tree I don't think it's a good idea. I believe that the form of thumb draw has more advantage to pull to heavy bow because the forearm is not rotated clockwise and stay in a more natural form and how they pull a yumi also helps not injure shoulder but the disadvantage about thumb draw is obvious that all weight is on thumb so you definitely need a right equipment only made for you to pull heavy bow with thumb draw.
24:55 maybe rotate your draw hand forearm counterclockwise so your draw hand will be inside the bow like the arrow?
definitely not stealthy either, when youre screaming in agony every time you draw the bow
Great suprise to have a "hnnngh" come from the trees - assassinstion ruined lol.
Next: can you shoot 6 million rpm arrows from a tree like a hacker elf?
Let me show you my features. (A-10 warthog gatling arows starts)
6 Million is a Far fetched number. 🤔
You mean Legolas
Based!
Should be apm (arrows/minute) :)
The only game that got bows right for me is Skyrim. The sound, the draw time, the bow arc, and the fact that it shakes if you keep it pulled is what made playing an archer so fun.
The bow shakes? :O I went in just now to check. Nothing happened, either on zoom or just normal draw. I have no archery-related mods.
It is fun though. But I think the most realistic archery I've played (I don't own many games though) is theHunter Classic (basically a hunting simulator). The traditional bows are SO HARD. (And I'm in love with my crossbow.)
@@Aethuviel Actually the arrow shakes, my bad. And yeah, hunting games of course
*"The trees! They're in the trees!"*
~that one Captain before being ambushed by incel Elvish women in the forests.
(Don't mind me. I've been watching too many Baalbuddy comic dubs)
Thank you for confirming the correlation I’ve seen as well.
Shad Fact: Attempts to clone shad have failed as no container can hold his dna with out it shattering.
even his dna is thicc
So anything that attempts to contain the shad will just .. SHAD-TER?
*shaddering ;)
If you are looking for a game with more realistic bow drawing animations, I think the animation when shooting a bow in Solasta: Crown of the Magister looks pretty nice!
Spear throwers (atl atls) may be a good option for this ranger in the trees. The darts tend to be very long and flexible but if you had some shorter darts balanced for hard-throwing at short distance, that would be a very good option for this Ranger clambering around in the trees and throwing at all kinds of different angles.
or you could drop a big rock on their head once they go under you
Sure, same for fletchettes. But these in rocks are going to suffer ineffectiveness the further away from you and they rely on you being high enough that they can get enough momentum rather than you amplifying your throw with a lever.
Also darts can be staged in strategic places and blend in very well with the environment, branches hidden among branches. A little planning just makes this Ranger all that more effective.
Oh, this was an important video for me to watch. Thank you so much for testing this stuff out. I loved this trope so much before and now I'll need to be really inventive to use it responsibly. The only situation I can see this trope working would be that if you were in a forest, you might not need the range of a typical war bow, simply because the branches and things would get in the way. It wouldn't work for the classic ready-for-anything ranger kit, but perhaps a local forest militia might be able to make use of lighter bows.
A lesson I've personally learned about Shad: Never feed him after second lunch. Ahaha All jokes aside, I love you, bro. I've learned so much, and I can't wait to see more!
One thing to consider, is that almost every setting that has elves as the tree-walking archer types, ALSO include the idea that they have special specialized bows. So perhaps they aren't really using a full on warbow, and instead are using something that winds up having a lesser draw-weight, while in some fashion maintaining it's lethality through some fantasy reasoning.
After all, elven magic, elven craft, and archery being their main focus, they're gonna make their jobs as easy as they can.
Or have elves use horsebow. The design of string bridge allows for light easy early pull and max weight at full...however thumbdraw allows position to lock your hold behind the ears unlike the three fingers draw.
That's why we could see some advance horsebow training is fast shooting. By holding three arrows on hand. You can't do it with longbow... difference of design restrictions.
Frankly I think it's a fallacy to even assume you need a 100+ lb draw warbow to be effective and it completely ruins this argument. Warbows were built for... war. You want a mass of archers to be able to reach out and touch the enemy at the longest distance possible with volleys to harass, slow, and inflict casualties as early as possible.
The fact of the matter is that a 40lb draw weight is sufficient to kill a deer and 60-65 is sufficient for the much larger and tougher elk and moose. If you can kill a moose with 60lb, I guarantee you it will also kill a human. The 40lb more often then not will do the job. If you watch Todd's Workshop you will see that even at very close range an English warbow has a nearly impossible time punching plate. So if your opponent is in plate, the extra power does you little to no good. Against maile it will make more of a difference but I am quite confident that with the correct arrowhead, a 60-65lb draw bow will also punch most maile.
Elves and adventurers in the movies are typically not using their bows on a battlefield where you are trying to engage from the maximum range possible with imprecise volley fire. They use them in rather close quarters and the absolute premium is shot placement, hitting vital weak spots and gaps. You don't need 100+ lbs for these ranges. Hence, this entire video is based on a bad premise... that an adventurer would want or need to be using a warbow.
One series of books where I saw a solution to the elves' archery was in the Eragon series. In it, the magic that circulates in the elf blood makes the race's muscles much stronger. It is constantly reminded in the series that even the weakest elf, like a sick and hungry for days, is still strong enough to beat the strongest human.
There is even a passage where the main character, after being magically transformed into a kind of hybrid between human and elf, does a training section with a hunting bow he owned and mentioned that he barely felt the power of the bow, reaching the point of pulling the bow in excess and breaking the bow. Afterwards he gains an elven bow and in training he could target more than twice as far as before and still reach without a problem.
@@brenomatos8384 In the Eragon series of books it's more the Elven bond with Dragons that lends them their massive increase in strength and even some of their appearance rather than any innate ability of their own.
Eragon doesn't become a hybrid. He was always going to become physically and magically powerful regardless. Because his status as a Rider would slowly give him the same bond with Dragons as the elves. All that happened was that the process was drastically sped up.
So as a baseline Elves in that verse are no more physically superior to Humans or Dwarves. And as the Human Riders proved that sort of ability is achievable by simple virtue of being bonded to a dragon.
@@oddeyeus2365
Pretty much. This entire idea that "fighting fully armored opponents would invalidate the use of short bows" is extremely weak. The short bows are clearly used to fight light armored enemies or animals.
If by chance they had to fend off a group of fully armored soldiers, they would just use other ways to dispose of them(sneak attacks, traps, poison) since those warriors would have to traverse a thick and narrow forest wearing heavy equipment.
For the "beasts with thick hide", they would simply avoid confrontation or again, find ways to counter them other than shooting arrows, either that or get wiped out since they are such easy prey to those creatures.
I hunt with a traditional recurve bow and legally in Canada you can’t do that with less than a 40# bow. When hunting, 40# is recommended for deer or smaller and 50-60# or greater for things with thicker hide like moose, elk or bear. Ideally I try to have an upright posture with my 55# bow but sometimes because of terrain or brush I need to crouch or something. But I try to practice for that, just in case. So basically I think a 50-70# bow would work for an adventure in just about any situation.
As a recurve hunter who shoots a 60# bow I second this
arrows can pernitrate a lot deeper at lower poundage's than people realize, TV and movies do a horrible job of showing this
I think target archery gives hunting archery a false sense of what is going on. My 55# recurve with carbon shafts and a heavy 2 blade razor sharp broadheads go through deer and antelope and elk. Unless I hit the shoulder, but I punch right through it and hit vitals. The kinetic formula is very important to how a projectile flys and how it hits.
You guys are right. There is a distinct difference between a hunting bow and a war bow. War bows were the machine guns of the time so their purpose was to lob heavy arrows, in mass quantities, at the enemy formation. Hunting bows were shorter and of lighter draw weight to aid in moving through the forest and to minimize movement when coming to full draw. Very effective in the right hands. Essentially it's all about using the proper tool for the right job.
@@melvinpowell3939 Saying a bow was anything like a machine gun shows your lack of knowledge.
@@Kyle-gw6qp calm down skippy. Maybe you need to reread what I wrote. What weapon did armies use for volley fire prior to the use of firearms?
Awesome and unique video, well done as always. As a fan of Lord of the Rings however, I can infer that in the case of Legolas, it is known by lore that elves possess superhuman strength, far above that of humans and even Dúnedain who are special humans blessed by the Valar. So I believe it is entirely passable for wood elves, who are also known as the greatest bowmen of Middle Earth to be able to fire bows of any draw weight fairly easily. We can also recall that the Rohirric man from Helm's Deep who was part of the first volley against the Uruks, actually tired too much and let loose his arrow before the order.
You’re a fighter shad. They can use bows and swords, Wear armor, and depending on how they’ve been trained can be just as good as a ranger.
I agree. I've had a couple of D&D Fighters who specialize in bows. There's no reason you have to go with the Ranger and it's wilderness vibe. I'd say if you wanted to classify historical English longbowmen, they would absolutely be fighters, not rangers. They were professional soldiers who lived, worked, and trained in towns.
@@blardfip4540 And if you're trying to make a Robin Hood type outlaw, the Scout Rogue subclass works better for that.
@@blardfip4540 actually longbowmen were useually yeomen, who were by definition rural freemen (as apposed to burghers who were the freemen from towns).
I suppose a preferred scenario for arboreal shooting is to have a squad of “snipers” to loose a volley into an approaching enemy force and then displace (ie climb down and run like hell) while the main ground based ambushers do their thing? I imagine during the surprise and confusion of the initial volley will give the ground pounders enough advantage to close the distance.
Btw, I’d love to sit in on one of your DND campaigns! 🏰🐉🏰
Love this idea. The confusion and that the victims automatic reaction may be scanning the tree tops, while the real ambush flank them from both sides on the ground. Brilliant!
For elves, they wouldn't even need to climb down- they have already spent centuries carefully designing the tree branches into effective long-distance roads and covered hide-a-ways. And with their acrobatics can jump from branch to branch effortlessly.
Literal fantasy Viet Cong
"They're in the trees!"
This has made me realize that in all of those character portraits that people use, the characters are using hunting bows, and the artist immortalized a spur-of-the-moment shot at a rabbit that the character took advantage of without using proper technique. The portrait then became bragging rights in the local pub.
Shad's D&D class is the paladin; crusading for accurate depictions of historical weapons.
I was thinking knowledge domain cleric.
@@theoneandonly6112 also a good pick
Adventurers/rogues using a warbow in the trees is like a special force commando using an anti-tank gun to kill a guard.
Might happen at some point, but probably wouldn't be the first and preferred course of action for most of them.
Your knowledge and enthusiasm are fantastic!
War bows to my knowledge weren’t used for “adventuring” however long bows were and you can get them in many different draw weights. You can also get recurve bows that had serious power too and lighter draw weight too as well as smaller perfect for adventuring.
The moment shad said shorter bows I thought of recurved bows. The idea of a reinforced short bow also went through my brain.
@@shawn6860 absolutely, they also had self bows too back then which were pretty much a shorter longbow.
My recurve I had from 12 and up to my 20s was 65 lbs about 55 draw but that was accurate and deadly 65to 75 yards . Just had to pick spots in the tree that was more open. Often I’d use spots close to the trees trunk it allowed stepping around for cover and I could draw and lean out a bit for a shot.
Shad's gonna be ready when magic shows up in the world again
Simple combat magic would probably be useless since guns exist, but the more intermediate to harder ones might be useful
You got 20 likes in six minutes. 🎉
Again!?!?
@@alexanderford4115 , do you know about Shadowrun?
@@sciarpecyril the game?
Nice video. One thing to note, when you're talking about a fantasy setting, you could potentially be dealing with a bow that makes it easier to draw... and possibly hold as well (ie: a magic compound bow.)
your forgetting recurve bows, or a tenser woood/string being used thus require the same amount of power with less draw..also practice practice practice' and you could probably draw a war/long bow like a short bow
4:53 Legolas has super strength and uses a bow made of materials that don't exist. I don't think you can infer anything about the draw strength in the in-universe bow (though obviously you can infer things about the prop Orlando Bloom uses).
Im just done teading your novel... what a piece of uther...MAGNIFICENCE :)
Read it in three days since I couldn't stop. Very good! I CAN'T wait to see the movie.
Near the end of the book Axion: Autorian's Archives
Artorian does exactly this using a high poundage recurve bow. He's in a "haunted" forest where he goes to assail a small castle taken over by raiders because during one of their raids, they kidnapped some of his adopted grandchildren. It's in the middle of the night and he infuses a specific of elemental magic, the series calls it essence, to his eyes to make them glow making the med thinking he's a phantom.