RCA Living Stereo Vinyl - The Reiner Sound - Review And Comparison
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- RCA Living Stereo Vinyl Series - The Reiner Sound LSC-2183
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The RCA Living Stereo Vinyl Series that I've been working on over the past year gives me great joy. Not only do I get to revisit these superb recordings on my latest system, I get to share my passion and enthusiasm for them with you.
One of the great RCA Living Stereo records is The Reiner Sound, with works by Ravel and Rachmaninoff, as performed by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra under the baton of Fritz Reiner.
In this video I discuss the music, the sound, and get into some of the differences between the competing versions.
RCA Living Stereo Vinyl has been issued numerous times, and here I have an original Shaded Dog pressing, the subsequent tube mastered Chesky Records edition, the two efforts (33rpm and 45rpm) by Bernie Grundman for Classic Records, and the latest from Analogue Productions mastered by Ryan K Smith. All are all analog - and all sound slightly different. I hope you enjoy this presentation.
00:00 Introduction
00:53 Some RCA Living Stereo Books
03:03 About The Reiner Sound
04:06 Original Shaded Dog Pressing
07:50 The Chesky Reissue
10:38 The Classic Reissues
13:44 The Analogue Productions Reissue
18:05 Conclusion
Correction: The Chesky was plated at Europadisc, not Teldec. Not sure where the original run was pressed.
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Years ago I got a copy of the RCA Bible on inter library loan. I scanned it as best I could into pdf format. I’ll try and make it available to read somehow, it is a neat reference.
I'm sure many would be grateful Micheal, someone suggested one of the archive sites. Please be sure you won't get into trouble. Not sure if it's an issue without Johnathan's approval
I'm listening to this right now (AP version) - wonderful!
Get well soon!
Awesome! Feeling much better thank you!
I've never found this one in the wild, but the CD is fantastic. "Isle of the Dead" is a reference recording for dynamics; it makes the drapes move during climaxes and that bass drum. I just watched "Isle of the Dead" last week; the painting is visible in the background in a couple of shots as decoration. Love those Lewton films!
Me too regarding the Lewton films. Might watch them all in October!
Classic Records often made both multi-disc 45rpm and single 33 1/3 LP. Some, I bought both when they came out and usually I would already have an original. I didn't buy classical back then.
I often found the Classic 33 1/3 LP's kind of compressed sounding but the 45rpm versions brighter and closer to the original LP's, but with less surface sounds. I feel that 200g pressings dulled the sound itself and the 45rpm 200g versions brightened the sound.
Years ago, both CR and AP used RTI for plating and pressing and CR often used Bernie Grundman for mastering and cutting the lacquers.
When Chad Kassem bought CR, he also acquired much of CR's stock and library of metal masters. I have noticed that sometimes he uses the CR master discs and they can be identified by the RTI number and BG in the trail out. When these are used, and it is more common for Chad have them pressed at 180g, they do sound brighter than the CR 200g pressings. Although often the QRP pressings may be off-center on one side or both sides. It's good to have a TT with a removeable spindle.
Thank you, good sir, for all of your excellent work. I really appreciate your reviews, commentaries, and comparisons.
Thank you Charles, I'm so glad you enjoyed hearing about this special album!
So sorry to hear about your bout of COVID scott!
Feeling well enough to return to work today. We'll see how that goes!
Great information as always
Glad you enjoyed it my friend!
Thanks for the wonderful video, Scott. Feel better soon. All the best from Victoria BC 🇨🇦
Hello my friend! Thank you for the well wishes. Glad you enjoyed the video. Hopefully you'll have some new visitors!
Get and feel better....will see you soon....great video again and look forward to your next one!! Also, congrats at hitting over 8,000 subs!
Yes I'm thrilled about that milestone. I'm going to work extra hard on the best content I can think of to hir 10,000 on Dec 31st! I like round numbers with lots of zeros :-)
thanks for all the info buddy!
You're very welcome. Thank you for watching and commenting!
Recorded in April, 1957 Reiner's Isle of the Dead is magnificent. It's in 5/8 time and alternates between stressing 12 345 and 123 45 and you feel like your being along by an irresistible force. The beautiful flute solos were played by Ernst Liegl who was Doriot Anthony Dwyers teacher. I remember a little story told by Norm Pellegrini of WFMT in Chicago and Reiner said to Richard Mohr the producer while listening to the playback of Isle he said "I sound like Stokowski!"
Thank you for your reply. I've heard a few other versions but none compares to this. I never could describe the reasons why, but I agree - magnificent. Thanks for bringing up the additional details. Interesting comment by Reiner!
Also i dont think Valin's RCA Bible is anywhere online - if someone who has it could scan theirs and host it on the internet archive that would be a huge, huge contribution to the community.
A big time commitment I realize but it would be such a shame if this book was lost to time...
I thought about that but is it even legal to do so without permission?
@@ThePressingMatters That's a valid concern but I'd be surprised if it got taken down since it's now over 30 years old and out of print.
I've seen a lot of copyrighted stuff available on the Internet Archive, and the book's reputation suggests it should be more readily available than it is
Many thanks, Scott, for saving me some money of not buying the Classic. I will wait until AP provides a proper cover for the price they are demanding. As to 45 cuts, I am increasingly refraining from buying any, since the sonic gain is often too little to justify the higher price and wasting resources at the same time. Impo, the Acoustic Sounds Atlantic 45 cut program is just a money grap for - with some exceptions - mostly rock and pop artists/titles which have not been so well recorded in the first place and lost popularity over the years. (AS must be desperate to get new licenses and load their pressing plant these days). If at all, I would be buying NM country of recording OGs which can easily be found at much lower prices with highly likely better sound due to tape freshness.
Get better soon!
Hi Thomas,
Had I known I would have waited too. As far as I've been able to find, no one has mentioned this. I feel it's important. I'll let you know if I hear anything regarding the return to the right jacket. Hope it's not a trend.
33 vs 45 - I'll have a lot more to say soon!
Thanks for a heroic post covid video Scott! I can’t say when I got it in March that producing content was a possibility let alone a priority. I had never heard of the Val Lewton Isle of the dead film so will look out for it as I love both Cat people films. Hope your back on form soon in the meantime I recommend Makers Mark as effective and fun throat relief!
you're welcome! Feeling better and planning more! Check out Seventh Bictim and I Walked With A Zombie from Val Lewton. Two of his best.
Interesting review: as have a 'new' copy of 17S/20S. Originally heard IotD as '71 RCA UK mastered VICS1205 - and the Teldec/German earlyish 70's LP VICS1205.
IotD I never thought sounded particularly good, with obvious Tape Saturation/modulation 'pumping' - nor helped by the overall 'nasal' coloration. At least it only cost around a Dime - part of an auction lot of mostly unplayed USAF Library stock of the period!
I think the different stampers , plants and so forth can make a difference - but there's no question the tape has h some issues. Many RCAs do have oversaturation. Yet this performance is so good I felt compelled to find the best.
I didn't know about that Val Lewton movie! Have seen the others from the period.... I will mention here the Previn Isle of the Dead recording on EMI. One of his best. Great overview, BTW. Yes, the 45 vs. 33 issue is kinda gnarly. I don't like flipping the record that much either, especially in classical. But.... I've got to pick up more of those AP versions (I have all the Classics, and I really like them). I was just listening to the Classic Munch Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique (comparing to the about to be released DG Original Source Ozawa recording), one of the greats, and was astonished to see AP hasn't done this one. I wonder why.....
It's actually one of my favorite of the Val Lewton thrillers. You ought to try and catch it for the Halloween season.
I must hear the Previn. I'm sure the engineering is great on it. Bishop and Parker perhaps?
That earlier Symphonies Fantastique is a great one, and now a collectible record. I treasure mine. I also love his later attempt. That one was one of my first Living Stereo records.
Yup, the Bishop/Parker team!@@ThePressingMatters
Scott, you've done several videos with multiple versions of a wonderful RCA Living Stereo recording, and I love all of them.
Though I am quite happy with my recent AP/QRP reissues and will almost certainly never acquire one of the early pressings, I really love learning about the earlier pressings from your videos.
For selfish reasons, I also love that you usually find the AP/QRP reissues to be superb sounding. It's confirmation that the copy I bought is a really good version.
Of course I love The Reiner Sound, it was one of the first RCA LS titles I bought.
I"m so sorry you had COVID. I'm a college professor and was on summer break when I got it in '22, so it didn't mess up my work schedule at all. I quarantined in the guest bedroom next to my listening room, and during that time I did a TON of listening and ordered lots of RCA LS titles (the AP/QRP versions) from Acoustic Sounds.
I will definitely check out Isle of the Dead and Curse of the Cat People. I just watched the trailers for both of them on IMDB and they're right up my alley - I love B horror movies from all decades but especially the 50s - 70s.
Thanks for another great video. Hope you're feeling completely better soon if not already.
Ron
Hi Ron,
Thank you for you well wishes. Feeling better today.
I have got to talk a bit more about the Val Lewton films. I consider them fine works of cinematic art. My favorite is called The Seventh Victim, followed by I Walked With A Zombie. Despite the lurid title of the latter it is sensational. Of the others next might be Isle of the Dead and Cat People. Then there is The Leopard Man, Bedlam, and Curse of the Cat People. That last one is more of a fantasy rather than horror thriller. Definitely see my first three choices!
Covid was definitely a chance to catch up on listening, and puttering around the house. I didn't mind being away from the 9-5 for 5 days!
I feel you can be very confident in the APs I've reviewed so far. I really listen carefully and try to give an idea what to expect from each pressing. If I had to downsize, which I will, the APs will be the ones staying.
Very nice review of The Reiner Sound LP. I don't have the LP in my collection but do have the hi-res download. I find it to be a great sounding recording.
It certainly is. I bet it really shines in the hi-res version. Some day I'll explore digital playback again. Much as I love my vinyl, I always did like digital's considerable advantages!
@@ThePressingMatters I enjoy both worlds. Most of the hi-res downloads come from the master tapes and sound wonderful but sometimes the LP can sound better. A lot of the master tapes are now 55-65 years old and some of them are starting to deteriorate.
@@mr.classicalmusic5607 Yes, for sure.
nice review. Have all the issues (Classic 33 and 45, AP 33, Chesky 180gram + several orig. SD copies) and would agree with your comments, if a person can only get one copy, the AP pressing is the one to have. The Classic 45 set can be a demo record, but for casual listening lots of flipping. I don't think RCA ever issued this title as a white dog or red label. If they did, I have never seen one. I have several SD issues. A 1S/1S, a 10S/12S and a 16S/20S. They are pretty close; maybe the 1S is a tad better but not worth seeking out over the other OG issues. To my knowledge, I think the RCA- Indy plant was the only RCA plant that pressed this one. Have not seen a Rockaway or Hollywood pressing on this title. RCA/BMG also re-issued the title twice on CD. once as a standard CD and once on their SACD/CD format where Sound Mirror did all the editing and data conversion. The latter is quite good, but does not have the depth the AP or classic pressings have.
Thank you!
Having all the same reissues, I really think we are in agreement here. AP did a wonderful job on this. When I do play the 45, it's usually just been to hear Rhapsody Español. I guess I should play the remainder someday! It's a fun listen, but I love this in 33 format and I think Ryan once again really tried and succeeded in making this AP the best version. It really has everything (except a gorgeous glossy jacket lol) Did you get an earlier one in the gloss jacket? Would you say the Classic has a touch of brightness?
As far as RCAs own reissues, I can't recall seeing any either. No direct copy in the Victrola label either. Just a portion (Isle of the Dead) sequenced into another grouping on a UK and German Victrola. It's been wonderful to revisit this title. Glad you enjoyed the review, and thank you as always for your comments!
@@ThePressingMatters As for your Qs, I have both the 200 and 180 gram AP. Both have glossy jackets. I don't think the classics are bright, just do not have as much of that lush string midrange tone the AP does. When Hobson first brought out the first titles, many compared them to the originals, and said they were missing that string tone. Chad made a note of this so on all the AP Living Stereo re-issues asked Ryan Smith to eq the lacquers so they would match the original SD issues. At Classic Records, Hobson had Bernie cut the lacquers straight from the tapes with little or no eq. I guess it would be a matter of choice. The Classics are probably closer to what the tape sounds like, but the AP have similar dynamics but with a tonality that is closer to the original SDs. The Reiner Sound was also issued in England, pressed by Decca, but I have never seen or heard a copy. AP has not released the Reiner Sound on 15 IPS tape, but that would sure be a copy to hear.
Glad you're feeling better Scott. Great vid. The Reiner Sound is one of my favorite Living Stereos also. Most people bought it for The Isle Of The Dead. Not that many recordings of that piece. The Previn is considered a good one. There are plenty of versions of Rhapsody Espagnole and Pavane out there on lps. I've plenty of Pavane For A Dead Princess interpretations and the Reiner is still my favorite. It is one of the most beautiful short pieces of music in the classical repertoire. Not all of Reiners interpretations are the absolute best, but it's amazing how many of his interpretations are. He was very consistent. He and Dorati of Mercury.
1. Can you name what other Living Stereo or Living Presence recording has both Rhapsody Espagnole and Pavane For A Dead Princess on the same recording?
2. You say the price on The Reiner Sound might be out of date. Do you mean the current price for an original would be "more" or "less" now?
3. Would you happen to know just when (year wise) the original RCA and Mercury pressings started commanding sky high prices? Like over a thousand bucks for the Ansermet Soria, The Faust/Carmen and the 1s Pines & Fountains? Were those records worth that kind of money in 1970, 1975, 1980? I didn't get into it until the late 1980s.
I seem to remember the peak pricing happening in the late "80s and early "90s. I was in NYC when I encountered my first $1,000 record. I had gone to a collector dealer's apt to get a $150 copy of Antill Corroborree on EMI. When I walked in I saw in pride of place a copy of a record I had actually never seen - the Faust Carmen. It was $1,000! Around that time I was seeing Mercuries in the $300 range at a record store. I think Sid z marks was still covering the series in TAS, so they just marked the all up!
I became aware of their value from an article. But I didn't know HOW much some of them were worth. It's natural to assume that their price escalated gradually. Like was an over $1,000 lp like the Faust/Carmen worth at least $100 in 1975? Or did $5 records all of a sudden zoom up to 200 times as much. You would have to find an old time audiophile with a good memory. I thought I'd never find LSC 2449. In my mind back then, my realistic fantasy find would have been something like LSC 1817 Gaite w/Fiedler. The other recording with both Pavane and Rhapsody Espagnole on it that I was referring to is a Paul Paray Mercury Living Presence cd. It also has La Valse, Tombeau etc. on it. They give you a lot of music on some cds. Some people who are not really audiophiles and not so close to it, think Harry Pearson's TAS Super Disc List is very overrated. Just like his fondness for Mercury Living Presence lps, which they view as his obsession with records having a strange frequency response.
You still have us waiting on your review of your new Hana cartridge. Have you tried any vintage vacuum tubes with your tube equipment? Vintage Mullard, Amperex and Telefunken tubes can be very expensive. Tried some under the radar new old stock Sylvania black plate tubes with the long plates from 1953, and they are a honey. I tried some 1970s grey plate NOS Sylvania tubes right before that; and the black plates ones are even better.. I moved my speakers out into the room nearly six feet from the wall behind them, and I am hearing depth like I've never come near before. The Sylvanias are known for that. More depth than vintage Mullards some say.
No vintage tubes yet, and the Hana review is forthcoming!
I agree that the Superdisc list is a bit silly and overrated. Yet it was influential. I much prefer Arthur Salvatore's Supreme Recordings list.
Many, many say that the NOS tubes from the golden era sound far better than modern tubes. Most of them wouldn't even consider a modern tube for a moment. The older tubes fall into the category of "they don't make em like they used to anymore." Their machinery and manufacturing processes were very different back then. They could do things with materials, gases and liquids back then, that are not legal to do in the workplace any longer because of health hazards. I collect old marbles (1930s/40s), and the procedures they used making those back then have long since been banned.
Mercury massed violin sound I've always had a problem getting to sound just right. Some admirable qualities though.
Hope you’re soon back to 100% Scott.
I have Isle Of The Dead/Reiner on one of my RCA Victrola records with the plum coloured centre. I really like it but then I don’t have any other versions to compare.
You know I forgot completely to check my Victrolas. Does it have the exact program or just Isle Of The Dead?
@@ThePressingMatters I have to correct myself there, Scott. Mine isn’t on a plum label, it’s the later pink one but still I like it. It’s paired with two Liszt compositions, Todentenz and Mephisto Waltz so it’s a nicely themed collection.
* VCS 1205.
@@robertmorgan9205 Oh ok, I think I do have that one too. Probably plum. I wonder where the rest of the record went lol. I'll have to did down in that catalog I showed and find out.
@@robertmorgan9205 Ah ok, I will look up on my Discogs. I did catalog the Victrolas.
Another great review. Looks like you don’t have this album housed in a VSS dual pocket sleeve? Or maybe you just took it out to show the matte finish?
Hi Chris,
No I take it out of the VSS sleeve on camera. That sleeve at least hides the matte appearance. I can't believe how much it bothers me. I love the gloss jackets in this series. It really raised the bar. I'll probably end up buying it again when it's replaced and give this one away!
Actually they should send me one when it's reprinted for all the nice things I say about them LOL!
I have the AP 33 and the Classic 45 of this lovely title. The 5 LP spread on the Classic is a bit much - it sounds great - but for the value and time commitment, the AP is the way to go. Smith's remastering is so warm and lifelike. Curious if you had any knowledge as to AP's choice or perhaps licensing restrictions which led them to which Living Stereo titles would be cut at 45. I know there are only a handful, of which I have all aside from the Respighi. Just curious if you might have a guess there. Always love these comparison videos - thanks!
Thanks for your comment! I don't know about the licensing, but I don't think AP has any restriction on what they choose to release at 45 from this series. I think they just put a few of the heavy hitters on 45, knowing these particular titles will always sell well, and have some real advantages at 45. Don't forget that Power of The Orchestra was also done at 45 earlier as a one off, and not part of this series. It comes in a single sleeve.
Ah, amazing. Didn't realize that re: that early pressing of the Power of the Orchestra. Will seek that out. Have a wonderful day, Scott.@@ThePressingMatters
What would happen if you spread the instruments out instead of having them so compact? A foot between each instrument, would that make a difference?
Hi,
I'm not sure what you are referring to exactly, but on the recording stage there is at least that much space between players. The way the sound comes across does rely on how the various sections are arranged and separated on stage, but the was it is miked plays heavily into it too. Sometimes the score calls for many instruments playing together and that's where things can lose the sense of separation and composure if not handled well. Fortunately most of these records do that well, but there are times when things can sound a bit confused. A good cartridge and system can resolve these moments better than a lesser one. But sometimes this is just what was captured on the tape.I hope that answers your question.
Classic Records often made both multi-disc 45rpm and single 33 1/3 LP. Some, I bought both when they came out and usually I would already have an original. I didn't buy classical back then.
I often found the Classic 33 1/3 LP's kind of compressed sounding but the 45rpm versions brighter and closer to the original LP's, but with less surface sounds. I feel that 200g pressings dulled the sound itself and the 45rpm 200g versions brightened the sound.
Years ago, both CR and AP used RTI for plating and pressing and CR often used Bernie Grundman for mastering and cutting the lacquers.
When Chad Kassem bought CR, he also acquired much of CR's stock and library of metal masters. I have noticed that sometimes he uses the CR master discs and they can be identified by the RTI number and BG in the trail out. When these are used, and it is more common for Chad have them pressed at 180g, they do sound brighter than the CR 200g pressings. Although often the QRP pressings may be off-center on one side or both sides. It's good to have a TT with a removeable spindle.
Yes, I bought all my Classic 33 and 45 when they came out so all mine are 180gm with the exception of a few "Red Box" and "Royal Ballet Gala Black Box" 45s on Clarity 200gm. I also have a white box of 180gm test pressings of the complete Royal Ballet Gala. I preferred the 180s over the 200s I heard. I prefer the black vinyl to the Clarity. Your observations on 33 vs 45 are interesting. I think I can agree there in many cases. I'm very happy to have them, even with their issues but in almost every case I have preferred what Ryan did over Bernie. They just sound more natural to me, closer to originals in tonality and still getting the extension of the Classics. It's great to have choices!
@@ThePressingMatters Classic Records also did some comparison records. The one which comes to mind is Dusty Springfield doing "The Look Of Love" @ 45rpm and 33 1/3rpm pressed as both 180g and 200g. The 45 rpm versions were noticeably better as was the 180g pressing. I bought a new old stock CR 45rpm 200g boxed set of the "Casino Royale" soundtrack album that Chad got with his purchase of CR. Chad prices his new acquisitions at exorbitant prices, but I got this one from him for $100. 2x the original CR retail price, but if he had it to sell today, I'm sure he would probably price it at $400. The CR set sounds alot better than my original copy.
This is so interesting you mention this! I have the original Colgems sitting right in front of me. I remember searching high and low for that. I am always amazed at how good it does sound. I also have the Classic 33 and the comparison disc somewhere. I'm just starting to come across these as I resleeve. I found my 45 of Louis Armstrong St James Infirmary today! Anyway I seem to remember preferring the original of Casino to the Classic 180, but I don't think I put them head to head. I can imagine the 45 box sounding great for this title. On the comparison disc, I agree, the 45 side was the winner. Fun stuff. I almost made a video about "What's The Big Deal About Casino Royale" Maybe I still may once I locate my 33/45!